Can someone here on a "Student Visa" shoot at a range? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Can someone here on a "Student Visa" shoot at a range?


Tech knight
10-10-2012, 12:16
Can a friend of mine who is here on a student visa from Romania shoot at a gun range? Age = 30 years old.

I asked at my local gun shop (they don't have a range), but they were unsure.

RJ1670
10-10-2012, 12:17
Yes...

stolenphot0
10-10-2012, 12:19
Yes...

^^yep this^^

There are almost always foreign students at one of the ranges I go to. I generally try to keep an extra eye on them if they look like rookies.

mgs
10-10-2012, 12:21
Why not?

cgwahl
10-10-2012, 12:30
He can.

I believe he can even buy a gun if he wanted.

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 12:37
When I did a search I found some people saying they can not unless it's for work or they have a special privilege.

She said something about one thing she can not do is purchase a firearm on her Visa. She's not 100% sure how it works and I don't want either of us to get into trouble.

dan1488
10-10-2012, 12:41
why even bring it up? But then again I just go out into the yard to shoot.

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 12:48
why even bring it up? But then again I just go out into the yard to shoot.

One of the ranges in Milwaukee just made the news recently for running police background checks on every person who has gone to the range for months or years and telling everyone that they would never do such a thing.

She doesn't have any criminal record, but maybe it would come up that she is on a Student Visa from Romania or something and that would might not be allowed? :dunno:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/second-amendment-gun-legislation-discussion/145844-warning-milwaukee-gun-range-voluntarily-reports-law-abiding-customers-police.html

4Rules
10-10-2012, 12:58
Unless he/she meets an exception in the law, the non-immigrant alien (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf) (NIA (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)) is prohibited from possessing firearms and ammunition. So, unless he is directly supervised by another person (who can (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/identify-prohibited-persons.html) possess a firearm and ammunition under federal law), or he otherwise meets an exception to the general prohibition on the possession of firearms and ammunition by the NIA, he could not. But...

If he were to possess a valid hunting license issued by any U.S. state, he would meet an exception, and he could.

Non-Immigrant Aliens (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf

stevelyn
10-10-2012, 13:06
I don't see why not. It isn't like he's trying to buy one.

Don't know about where you live, but we don't see waffen BATFEces at our ranges.

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 13:12
Unless he/she meets an exception in the law, the non-immigrant alien (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf) (NIA (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)) is prohibited from possessing firearms and ammunition. So, unless he is directly supervised by another person (who can (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/identify-prohibited-persons.html) possess a firearm and ammunition under federal law), or he otherwise meets an exception to the general prohibition on the possession of firearms and ammunition by the NIA, he could not. But...

If he were to possess a valid hunting license issued by any U.S. state, he would meet an exception, and he could.

Non-Immigrant Aliens (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf


If I am understanding this correctly this means that she CAN shoot at the range if directly supervised by ME who can posses firearms and ammunition or a range officer? So she could use it or rent one at the range with her driver's license?

raven11
10-10-2012, 13:21
Yes , as long as you own the weapon and ammo they can shoot. I've taken plenty of Japanese, Taiwan , and Thai students to the indoor and outdoor ranges with no problems

4Rules
10-10-2012, 13:26
If I am understanding this correctly this means that she CAN shoot at the range if directly supervised by ME who can posses firearms and ammunition or a range officer? So she could use it or rent one at the range with her driver's license?

Yes, that is correct.

Glock20 10mm
10-10-2012, 13:27
So long as he is not a convicted felon (good luck proving that one!) sure!

4Rules
10-10-2012, 13:32
If she will be living in that state for more than 90 days, and she wishes to purchase her own handgun, a valid hunting license issued by any U.S. state would be one of the legal instruments that would permit her to do so legally.

cowboy1964
10-10-2012, 13:53
Can a friend of mine who is here on a student visa from Romania shoot at a gun range? Age = 30 years old.

I asked at my local gun shop (they don't have a range), but they were unsure.

Why not ask the range? They're the ones who are going to ask for id (I would hope).

HerrGlock
10-10-2012, 14:04
Get her a hunting license for small game. Doesn't matter what tags are on it, just make sure it's a legal hunting license.

Then she can buy, sell and possess her own firearms without "supervision" and no one can say a thing about it.

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 14:29
She lives in IL and I live in WI. I don't know how people in IL have to get the hunting license, but they would also need a FOID card. Though I don't think she wants to own her own firearm at this time.

WarCry
10-10-2012, 14:56
She lives in IL and I live in WI. I don't know how people in IL have to get the hunting license, but they would also need a FOID card. Though I don't think she wants to own her own firearm at this time.

FOID cards are not needed to go to a range. It WOULD be needed to buy her own ammo, but if you're providing it, it's not needed.

I can take anyone I want out to the range - provided it's not violating some parole or probation - and let them shoot my guns all day long.

If she DOES want a FOID - and I recommend it just for ease of purchase of ammo - the application has a question about US Citizenship. If you're not, then:


If NO, you must provide your alien registration number or provide other proof of documentation.

So even then, she COULD be a legal firearms owner/buyer.

But your question was about ranges. And going to the range has no special restrictions UNLESS the range has their own rules. You're on your own with that.

raven11
10-10-2012, 14:57
She lives in IL and I live in WI. I don't know how people in IL have to get the hunting license, but they would also need a FOID card. Though I don't think she wants to own her own firearm at this time.

Since you live in WI I'm assuming you don't have a FOID so it would jut be easier to shoot at a WI range.

Usually the rule is in Illinois one person has to have a FOID

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 15:11
Since you live in WI I'm assuming you don't have a FOID so it would jut be easier to shoot at a WI range.

Usually the rule is in Illinois one person has to have a FOID

Correct I don't have a FOID card. I know technically out of state residents don't require one to shoot at a range or purchase ammo in IL, but even the people that work at many of the stores and ranges are clueless of their own state laws.

The last time I was there a store refused to sell me ammo, so my friend just told them he has a FOID card and they were OK with that :faint:

We would do our shooting in the free state to the north in Wisconsin :cool:

devildog2067
10-10-2012, 16:32
FOID cards are not needed to go to a range.

Not legally, but every commercial range I've ever been to requires them of Illinois residents.

I don't even bother to go to the range anymore. I get my shooting fix in when we go to visit the in-laws in Texas.

fwm
10-10-2012, 17:00
When I did a search I found some people saying they can not unless it's for work or they have a special privilege.

She said something about one thing she can not do is purchase a firearm on her Visa. She's not 100% sure how it works and I don't want either of us to get into trouble.

I would question whether that was a (illegal) state requirement. Federal laws on guns apply to all legal RESIDENTS in the US even foreigners. On a student Visa, I would think that at least temporary residence is assumed.

PuroMexicano
10-10-2012, 17:29
In Las Vegas shooting ranges lots of tourists shoot full auto weapons, so I assume your buddy is OK shooting a gun at a range.

I've done it in TX with no other requirement.

BTW, the hunting license exception is also a valid one, even to transport weapons while not being a US citizen. But it DOES NOT authorize purchasing guns, just possession.

Shinytop
10-10-2012, 17:41
Man, am I glad I live in gun friendly country. I have had to produce ID to buy guns and had to wait for three days when I bought my Glock. I have bought ammo in Alabama and Florida without being asked for ID. I have shot at ranges in Alabama without being asked for ID. The Alabama ranges are closer than any in Florida so I have not tried ranges in Florida.

WarCry
10-10-2012, 18:33
Not legally, but every commercial range I've ever been to requires them of Illinois residents.

I don't even bother to go to the range anymore. I get my shooting fix in when we go to visit the in-laws in Texas.

This is the important note. If he's coming from Wisconsin and shooting at an IL range, then IL range isn't going to ask for a FOID card, regardless of who he's with.

I've been to the range here with tons of non-FOID, IL residents, and no one has ever ONCE asked any of my guests to put up or get lost.

As for the shopping, I'm right on the state line. When I go in and buy ammo at Walmart, what they say is "I need to see your FOID card or Missouri DL, please." If I were from MO (or Wisconsin, as is the OP's case), it would be no problem.

Everyone wants to make IL seem like the cesspool of all firearms laws. We do NOT have carry (yet), and Chicago is a whole different animal, but aside from those two things, the laws here are actually QUITE gun-friendly. Don't get me wrong, the issue that are here need to be fixed, but we're not as strict as, say, NJ, MA, CA, or any of a number of others.



Edited to add on the foreign shooters....I live near Pike County, IL, also called "The Disneyland of Deer Hunting." People come from all over the world to shoot here, and (as long as they have the hunting permits) they don't get harassed about shooting in IL.

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 19:10
This is good news. I'll be teaching her firearm safety before we go to the range so she's safe and knows what to expect and what she is doing. I don't know how much she's looking forward to shooting, but I think she's going to have a good time once we get started. If not, at least she can say that she's shot a gun :)

gjk5
10-10-2012, 19:17
A: I see no reason the friend cannot shoot

B: so glad I don't live somewhere with ranges that ID or "FOID" cards. Sounds like hell.

WarCry
10-10-2012, 19:20
This is good news. I'll be teaching her firearm safety before we go to the range so she's safe and knows what to expect and what she is doing. I don't know how much she's looking forward to shooting, but I think she's going to have a good time once we get started. If not, at least she can say that she's shot a gun :)

Stay away from the NE corner of the state, and you shouldn't run into any trouble in IL. If you get into the pull of the Chicago Machine, you're on your own.

Make sure it's fun. I don't know what kind of range you're using, but if it's open and outdoors, take reactive targets: water bottles (with coloured water for picking targets), fruits, things like that. Keep with the basics of shooting, but while punching paper is great for training, just for shooting like this, you need to have something that will make it a bit more memorable and less class-like.

Tech knight
10-10-2012, 20:08
Stay away from the NE corner of the state, and you shouldn't run into any trouble in IL. If you get into the pull of the Chicago Machine, you're on your own.

Make sure it's fun. I don't know what kind of range you're using, but if it's open and outdoors, take reactive targets: water bottles (with coloured water for picking targets), fruits, things like that. Keep with the basics of shooting, but while punching paper is great for training, just for shooting like this, you need to have something that will make it a bit more memorable and less class-like.

She lives in Cook county. I had to go to Chicago for my clinicals for a semester. I didn't even like that. She might be just outside of cook county, now that I think about it.

WarCry
10-10-2012, 22:49
She lives in Cook county. I had to go to Chicago for my clinicals for a semester. I didn't even like that. She might be just outside of cook county, now that I think about it.

Just be careful, check everything out carefully. Some of the "collar cities" or "collar counties" try to mimic Cook and Chicago to get favor with the political powers-that-be. A little Google-fu should keep you safe. Need anything specific or help finding something, PM me. I've versed myself well in the law of the Land of Lincoln.

scwine
10-10-2012, 22:55
She can shoot anywhere she wants to. Remember, compared to Romania, this is the wild west....let her live her dreams . All you need to do is provide her with ample loaded magazines and point here in the right direction...oh, I see it's Chicago,,,,,,,she will be fine, fire away.!:supergrin:

DanaT
10-10-2012, 23:27
Everyone wants to make IL seem like the cesspool of all firearms laws. We do NOT have carry (yet), and Chicago is a whole different animal, but aside from those two things, the laws here are actually QUITE gun-friendly.

Sorry, but having to have special permission (a card) to buy ammo is not even remotely gun friendly.

When I go buy ammo, they MAY ask for ID to prove I am over 18, but its pretty clear I am over 18 so pretty rarely does anyone ask. They record nothing.

Gallium
10-11-2012, 00:15
So long as he is not a convicted felon (good luck proving that one!) sure!


Convicted felons rarely gain US non immigrant, work, student or immigrant visas.

If they are a felon here it should show up on a background check.

4Rules
10-11-2012, 06:43
BTW, the hunting license exception is also a valid one, even to transport weapons while not being a US citizen. But it DOES NOT authorize purchasing guns, just possession.

That is misleading.

A non-immigrant alien (NIA) who is present in the United States under a student visa is generally prohibited from possessing firearms and ammunition, unless an exception to the general prohibition is met.

There are a few different exceptions, but the easiest one to meet is a valid hunting license issued by ANY U.S. state. A non-immigrant alien with a valid hunting license - issued by any American state - may possess firearms and ammunition. Purchasing and taking possession of firearms is another matter, one that also requires residency in a particular state for a minimum period of time, but the exception to the general prohibition (met by a valid hunting license issued by ANY U.S. state) is still valid.

Both residency and an exception to the general prohibition is required for a NIA to purchase and take possession of a firearm.

Non-Immigrant Aliens (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/

PuroMexicano
10-11-2012, 10:37
Can't see the difference of what I said to what you said. Please explain.

If I am a NIA with a valid hunting license I can possess a firearm, transport it, shoot it, etc., as long as I also meet the local requirements, e.g. don't possess hollow point ammo in NJ or don't possess high-cap magazines in CA, etc.

I cannot buy it, but I can rent it or bring my own from my country meeting the import requirements.
By possess I specifically mean to be in possession of.

HerrGlock
10-11-2012, 12:09
Can't see the difference of what I said to what you said. Please explain.

If I am a NIA with a valid hunting license I can possess a firearm, transport it, shoot it, etc., as long as I also meet the local requirements, e.g. don't possess hollow point ammo in NJ or don't possess high-cap magazines in CA, etc.

I cannot buy it, but I can rent it or bring my own from my country meeting the import requirements.
By possess I specifically mean to be in possession of.

If you live in a state for XX days, let's say 90 just to be over most states' residency laws, you can also buy a firearm.

Here's an ATF notice about just such a situation and how to fill out the 4473 for non-immigrant aliens as well as resident aliens:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2002-12.pdf

Seems as long as the person has an alien number, it's easy enough and if they don't, they can contact the INS office to get one.

PuroMexicano
10-11-2012, 17:04
thanks

blkt2
10-11-2012, 17:45
So long as he is not a convicted felon (good luck proving that one!) sure!

Felony convictions from outside of the USA will not bar you from firearm ownership in the USA.

Fragman
10-11-2012, 18:24
Unless he/she meets an exception in the law, the non-immigrant alien (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf) (NIA (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)) is prohibited from possessing firearms and ammunition. So, unless he is directly supervised by another person (who can (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/identify-prohibited-persons.html) possess a firearm and ammunition under federal law), or he otherwise meets an exception to the general prohibition on the possession of firearms and ammunition by the NIA, he could not. But...

If he were to possess a valid hunting license issued by any U.S. state, he would meet an exception, and he could.

Non-Immigrant Aliens (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf

Just saved me a bunch of typing! The above sums it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fragman
10-11-2012, 18:26
Felony convictions from outside of the USA will not bar you from firearm ownership in the USA.

No, but they will prevent you from getting a visa.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kingarthurhk
10-11-2012, 19:34
He can.

I believe he can even buy a gun if he wanted.

Non-immigrants with guns, how did this become suddenly legal?

Fragman
10-11-2012, 20:21
If you live in a state for XX days, let's say 90 just to be over most states' residency laws, you can also buy a firearm.

Here's an ATF notice about just such a situation and how to fill out the 4473 for non-immigrant aliens as well as resident aliens:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2002-12.pdf

Seems as long as the person has an alien number, it's easy enough and if they don't, they can contact the INS office to get one.

No, they can't. Not unless they fall under one if the exceptions mentioned in an earlier post. It states that in the link you posted. It basically states that an NIA cannot PURCHASE a firearm unless they have resided in the state for 90 days AND meet one of the exceptions. The exception on its own only allows them to POSSESS the firearm (they may have brought their own). Meeting the residency requirement on its own doesn't do anything for a NIA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DoubleWide
10-11-2012, 20:31
Skip Brew City aka Badger Guns. Skip IL altogether. I haven't gone to a lot of ranges down there, but they either required FOID or at least a IL driver's license.

Shooters in West Allis or Racine - completely different companies are ok places to go.

HerrGlock
10-12-2012, 01:10
No, they can't. Not unless they fall under one if the exceptions mentioned in an earlier post. It states that in the link you posted. It basically states that an NIA cannot PURCHASE a firearm unless they have resided in the state for 90 days AND meet one of the exceptions. The exception on its own only allows them to POSSESS the firearm (they may have brought their own). Meeting the residency requirement on its own doesn't do anything for a NIA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you happen to overlook the fact that I said, "If you live in a state for XX days, let's say 90 just to be over most states' residency laws, you can also buy a firearm."? That's in addition to the assumption the person already has a valid hunting license as we've been talking about.

When correcting someone it's usually best to figure out if they're actually wrong first.

hamster
10-12-2012, 03:27
:needspics:

t2y
10-12-2012, 09:36
Mostly lurk here but the ATF just recently removed the 90-day residency requirement.

https://federalregister.gov/a/2012-13770

Aliens still have to prove state residency (with a DL or similar) to purchase a firearm through an FFL though, just don't need to establish 90 days continuous residency anymore.

As for going shooting with an NIA, it depends on who you ask. The various ATF people give varied answers and State generally don't care. The law is on your side, although I wouldn't do anything to attract attention to myself and the NIA while shooting. I don't know if there is legal precedent and I certainly don't want to be the test case.

frizz
10-12-2012, 09:46
I would advise calling the NRA to get in touch with an IL lawyer with firearm law expertise. (You are a member of the NRA, right?) Consider a call to the ATF as well.

WarCry
10-12-2012, 10:35
Skip Brew City aka Badger Guns. Skip IL altogether. I haven't gone to a lot of ranges down there, but they either required FOID or at least a IL driver's license.

Shooters in West Allis or Racine - completely different companies are ok places to go.

You said you haven't gone to a lot of ranges, then declare what they're going to require? If you're from out of state, you CAN'T have a FOID card, and you're probably not going to have an IL license, either, unless you're scamming the system. Are you implying that ranges in IL will flat out turn away money just because it comes from out of state? Are you serious? That's quite possibly the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

People come from all over the country and the world to IL. Saying that they wouldn't be allowed to shoot at a range here is ludicrous.

PuroMexicano
10-12-2012, 12:01
Non-immigrants with guns, how did this become suddenly legal?

It has always been legal (when meeting the exceptions) and it was far easier before 9-11.

Since I can remember, the US has always welcomed hunters and shooters from all over the world.

gotin
10-12-2012, 12:18
Here in Orlando there is a gun range by International Drive, where about 90% of the customers are foreigners.
It is not illegal for them to shoot at the range.

4Rules
11-23-2012, 19:11
This summer, there have been several important changes to federal firearms law with regard to the treatment of aliens who wish to access firearms and ammunition in the United States. As a result, ATF has issued a new updated Form 4473, based in part on the changes. The new Form went into effect on July 9, 2012. This month’s article will discuss these recent changes to federal law and what it means for the firearms community.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1441 (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1441)