OBR 7.62 barrel length. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Travclem
10-10-2012, 18:01
I'm in the market for a Larue OBR 7.62. Since the wait for one of these bad boys is around 6 months I want to make sure I am making the right choice on barrel length. At first I was leaning toward 18" as a good compromise between weight/length and performance. The more I look at the .308, the more I lean toward 16".

From what I can tell the 16" costs you ~200fps but saves weight and length. The gun will be suppressed sometimes so length is an issue. At this time I am almost certain that I want the 16" but what say the GTBRF? Am i correct in saying the velocity loss from 2" of barrel is negligible?

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 18:06
I'd personally go with an 18" in 7.62, but that's based on my personal preference for the look and feel of an 18" AR10 type rifle rather than any actual performance difference.

Travclem
10-10-2012, 18:09
I'd personally go with an 18" in 7.62, but that's based on my personal preference for the look and feel of an 18" AR10 type rifle rather than any actual performance difference.
I think the 16" is the best looking of the OBRs with the GB under the handguard but for follows function for me. The OBR is already a heavy beast.

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 18:17
I don't like that particular handguard to begin with, but that's just me. If I were dropping that kind of coin on a rifle, I'd probably look into putting a Troy 13.8" .308 TRX handguard on there for a couple hundred extra bucks (if there's a compatible barrel nut out there, I honestly don't know if there is).

Travclem
10-10-2012, 18:20
I don't like that particular handguard to begin with, but that's just me. If I were dropping that kind of coin on a rifle, I'd probably look into putting a Troy 13.8" .308 TRX handguard on there for a couple hundred extra bucks (if there's a compatible barrel nut out there, I honestly don't know if there is).
I don't think so either. I'll deal with the handguard for the LaRue accuracy.

The funny part of this endeavor is I decided to buy an OBR to take my mind off of my pending tax stamps, but the LGS sold the ones they had a week before I had sold enough guns to make the $$$. So looks like I'm in for yet another 6 month wait.

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 18:45
You'll not get much sympathy from me, bucko :tongueout:

WoodenPlank
10-10-2012, 19:29
If you're planning to shoot at any significant distance, then 20" is the only choice, IMO.

AK_Stick
10-10-2012, 20:41
I dunno, guys who can really shoot, are making solid hits, past 1,000 with a 16 inch tube.


Yeah, its harder, but not terribly so.


Really depends on what you want to use it for. If you're only going to punch paper, I'd get the 16 inch. If you're going to shoot at something real a long way out, maybe consider the longer tube.

WoodenPlank
10-10-2012, 23:57
I dunno, guys who can really shoot, are making solid hits, past 1,000 with a 16 inch tube.


Yeah, its harder, but not terribly so.


Really depends on what you want to use it for. If you're only going to punch paper, I'd get the 16 inch. If you're going to shoot at something real a long way out, maybe consider the longer tube.

Oh, I am aware that it is being done. However, it's like saying guys are winning track meets even after letting the coach whack them in the knee with a ball peen hammer.

Why hobble yourself? If it's going to be something you're humping up and down mountains, or extensive use in an urban combat area, the reduced size and weight can be a blessing. For most folks punching paper on weekend, though, that extra velocity sure is nice to have, especially at distance.

AK_Stick
10-11-2012, 00:11
I don't know that 4 inches, on a 308, is going to make much of a significant issue.

You're only talking maybe, 200 fps. Maybe. load, and individual rifle dependent.

So, what, maybe 1.5 inches difference? Just not seeing that as being much, if even noticeable.

WoodenPlank
10-11-2012, 00:13
I don't know that 4 inches, on a 308, is going to make much of a significant issue.

You're only talking maybe, 200 fps. Maybe. load, and individual rifle dependent.

So, what, maybe 1.5 inches difference? Just not seeing that as being much, if even noticeable.

I don't get to shoot longer distances that much, so I will take all the advantages I can get...

:whistling:

AK_Stick
10-11-2012, 00:23
Thats a valid though, but I think you're going to see more dispersion from your trigger/breathing, than you will see between the 16/18/20 inch tubes.

surf
10-11-2012, 00:37
Is this a bench rifle? Are you humping it around hunting etc? What distances are you planning on using it at? What load(s) are you planning on putting through it?

MrMurphy
10-11-2012, 03:37
I've spent considerable time on all 3 lengths of OBR and was shooting them before they were OBRs.

If you're never going to exceed 800m stick with the 16, it's the most maneuverable and the velocity loss is fairly irrelevant. The 18 is a good compromise for the thousand yard guys. The 20 is for pure bench shooters or long-range only guys.

The 18 with a PRS is my favorite for extended range stuff, though in my case, I did the majority at 100m for testing. Good shooters have kept MOA or better groups at an excess of 900m without too much trouble, and the 'good' long range guys (I am not one admittedly) have made hits at some insane distances.

Mark himself took an elk at about 400m with a 16" a couple years ago IIRC.

Suppressed, the 16 is my favorite with a Crane stock or CTR with the RISR, it gets the job done. Under 500m the 1.5-5 Leupold, 2.5-10 Nightforce and any of the 3 or 4X ACOGs do very well, especially suppressed at night with a PVS-24.

Travclem
10-11-2012, 05:56
Is this a bench rifle? Are you humping it around hunting etc? What distances are you planning on using it at? What load(s) are you planning on putting through it?

It will primarily be my new hog rifle, so lots of in and out of vehicles/walking/running. I'll probably shoot some long distance (600m, 800m, 1000m) steel on occasion.

Most everything I shoot are hand loads.


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Travclem
10-11-2012, 05:57
I've spent considerable time on all 3 lengths of OBR and was shooting them before they were OBRs.

If you're never going to exceed 800m stick with the 16, it's the most maneuverable and the velocity loss is fairly irrelevant. The 18 is a good compromise for the thousand yard guys. The 20 is for pure bench shooters or long-range only guys.

The 18 with a PRS is my favorite for extended range stuff, though in my case, I did the majority at 100m for testing. Good shooters have kept MOA or better groups at an excess of 900m without too much trouble, and the 'good' long range guys (I am not one admittedly) have made hits at some insane distances.

Mark himself took an elk at about 400m with a 16" a couple years ago IIRC.

Suppressed, the 16 is my favorite with a Crane stock or CTR with the RISR, it gets the job done. Under 500m the 1.5-5 Leupold, 2.5-10 Nightforce and any of the 3 or 4X ACOGs do very well, especially suppressed at night with a PVS-24. Thanks for the advice! I'm intrigued by the Horus reticle right now but haven't settled on any glass.




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Travclem
10-11-2012, 05:58
Thats a valid though, but I think you're going to see more dispersion from your trigger/breathing, than you will see between the 16/18/20 inch tubes.

That's the direction I am leaning. I'm not so much concerned with the accuracy of the different barrel lengths, they should be the same. The difference is going to be how far it is until the bullet goes transonic and/or runs out of gas.


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Travclem
10-11-2012, 06:05
It will primarily be my new hog rifle, so lots of in and out of vehicles/walking/running. I'll probably shoot some long distance (600m, 800m, 1000m) steel on occasion.


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Big Bird
10-11-2012, 06:11
Having shot extensively at 500-1,000 yards with a .308 I will tell you that a longer barrel makes a helluva difference. 200 fps is a lot of velocity in a .308 as you won't be shooting light 150 grain bullets at 500 and beyond. You'll likely be using the 175 grain Sierra Match King. That bullet already starts out slow and you really handicap the slow powder required to drive it properly (relative to a lighter bullet) and then you cut off your other foot by using a short barrel.

Its not the trajectory that gets you its the wind. And 200 FPS means a lot in the wind.

It also means a lot when you get out to 1,000 yards. You'll go subsonic with most any .308 load in a short 16" barrel well before 1,000 yards and bullets tend to yaw and destabilize as the drop back below the sound barrier.

If you aren't honestly going to shoot beyond 500 much then go for the shorter barrel. People come up with some of the most ridiculous notions when it comes to guns--like I want to capability to shoot to 1,000 when they have never shot a target farther than 100 yards in their life. As if you just aim a little higher and you can shoot 800 or 1,000 yards just as easily as 100. Its a different ballgame and it take significant trigger time and observation of bullets in the wind to understand what I'm saying. a 10 MPH wind at 100 yards is insignificant. At 500 yards it will blow you a foot off you point of aim. At 1,000 it will blow you 3 feet off your point of aim.

It takes some logistics to shoot beyond 300 yards. Its not like you can see bullet holes with a spotting scope beyond 200 yards (you can't). Which means its a quarter mile to a half mile hike to go down and check you target. So you shot a bullet in X wind conditions...what did it do? You have to go check. You shoot another bullet wihtou marking the target you have no way of knowing what you did when. You have to check each shot and at 600 yards that's a LOT of back and forth and not much trigger time--or you can do pull targets and have a friend pull and mark your targets in the pit if you have access to that kind of range. Or you can compete in Hi-Power but a Predatar is not really meant for that kind of competition. Either way its a lot of work.

People will tell you you can make hits with a 16" gun at 1,000 yards. Yep. I can win the lottery too! A 16" .308 isn't the tool for that job. Period.

Travclem
10-11-2012, 06:33
Having shot extensively at 500-1,000 yards with a .308 I will tell you that a longer barrel makes a helluva difference. 200 fps is a lot of velocity in a .308 as you won't be shooting light 150 grain bullets at 500 and beyond. You'll likely be using the 175 grain Sierra Match King. That bullet already starts out slow and you really handicap the slow powder required to drive it properly (relative to a lighter bullet) and then you cut off it other foot by using a short barrel.

Its not the trajectory that gets you its the wind. And 200 FPS means a lot in the wind.

It also means a lot when you get out to 1,000 yards. You'll go subsonic with most any .308 load in a short 16" barrel well before 1,000 yards and bullets tend to yaw and destabilize as the drop back below the sound barrier.

If you aren't honestly going to shoot beyond 500 much then go for the shorter barrel. People come up with some of the most ridiculous notions when it comes to guns--like I want to capability to shoot to 1,000 when they have never shot a target farther than 100 yards in their life.

It takes some logistics to shoot beyond 300 yards. Its not like you can see bullet holes with a spotting scope beyond 200 yards (you can't). Which means its a quarter mile to a half mile hike to go down and check you target. Or you can do pull targets and have a friend pull and mark your targets in the pit if you have access to that kind of range. Or you can compete in Hi-Power but a Predatar is not really meant for that kind of competition.

People will tell you you can make hits with a 16" gun at 1,000 yards. Yep. I can win the lottery too! A 16" .308 isn't the tool for that job. Period. I understand what you are saying. I shoot out past 500 yards regularly with my 20" (cut down) 700p. I have a full dope database on my phone and on paper for that rifle with my 175gr. MatchKing load. I've just never owned a .308 shorter than 20". And was curious about the real world difference.

P.S. not wanting a PredatAr, I want the full weight OBR. The predatOBR would be ideal if they existed yet.



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MrMurphy
10-11-2012, 17:27
Greg Coker kept a MOA or better group at over 1k yards (I think it was like 1,108m?) with a 16" OBR.

Others have done similarly. The gun can do it. The shooter typically, can not.

That said, the 20" would be better shooting a 1k than the 16". However, if he's primarily going to be a hogslayer with the occasional long shots, anything under 600 isn't all that terribly hard with one if you have a clue (which Travclem seems to) and getting into the 800+ range with any rifle is a challenge.

I've made repeated hits on a silhouette at 500m with a FN SCAR-H using crappy German ball ammo using a 3.5X TA11, and I wasn't even trying very hard. And the OBR is more accurate.......

Travclem
10-11-2012, 20:01
Greg Coker kept a MOA or better group at over 1k yards (I think it was like 1,108m?) with a 16" OBR.

Others have done similarly. The gun can do it. The shooter typically, can not.

That said, the 20" would be better shooting a 1k than the 16". However, if he's primarily going to be a hogslayer with the occasional long shots, anything under 600 isn't all that terribly hard with one if you have a clue (which Travclem seems to) and getting into the 800+ range with any rifle is a challenge.

I've made repeated hits on a silhouette at 500m with a FN SCAR-H using crappy German ball ammo using a 3.5X TA11, and I wasn't even trying very hard. And the OBR is more accurate.......

Excellent! I think the 16" scored enough internetz to be my next rifle.


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WoodenPlank
10-11-2012, 20:41
Excellent! I think the 16" scored enough internetz to be my next rifle.


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I doubt you'll have any complaints with a 16" OBR for your use, especially since you already have a 20" bolt gun.

surf
10-11-2012, 21:45
For myself, if it is a rifle that I am going to be humping around and hunting with I prefer shorter and lighter. As mentioned 16" is not sweat IMO out to 800 and 1K is not out of reach. And if it was primarily a hunting rig etc, I would probably opt for the lighter LaRue.

For more long range work with good mobility I like 18"-19" as generally with most loads you will get a good burn out of 18". I have found that using 168gr FGMM from 26" cut down in 2" increments to 18" I am still dialing about the same dope to 500. Out to 1K I am dialing roughly 7 extra mins. Of course shooting ability and reading conditions is the key. I will stretch an 18" out to 1200 with good results also.

Travclem
10-12-2012, 05:20
For myself, if it is a rifle that I am going to be humping around and hunting with I prefer shorter and lighter. As mentioned 16" is not sweat IMO out to 800 and 1K is not out of reach. And if it was primarily a hunting rig etc, I would probably opt for the lighter LaRue.

For more long range work with good mobility I like 18"-19" as generally with most loads you will get a good burn out of 18". I have found that using 168gr FGMM from 26" cut down in 2" increments to 18" I am still dialing about the same dope to 500. Out to 1K I am dialing roughly 7 extra mins. Of course shooting ability and reading conditions is the key. I will stretch an 18" out to 1200 with good results also.


I'm not a fan of the PredatArs pencil barrel. I do like the PredatOBR but they don't exist yet. Good info on the barrel cutting test.


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Travclem
10-12-2012, 17:17
Just placed my order.


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TheBelly
10-13-2012, 05:40
I don't know that 4 inches, on a 308, is going to make much of a significant issue.

You're only talking maybe, 200 fps. Maybe. load, and individual rifle dependent.

So, what, maybe 1.5 inches difference? Just not seeing that as being much, if even noticeable.


200fps changes the distance where the bullet goes trans-sonic.

If I was going to reach out there, I'd get an 18" or a 20".

Travclem
10-13-2012, 05:42
200fps changes the distance where the bullet goes trans-sonic.

If I was going to reach out there, I'd get an 18" or a 20".

Do you know by how much it changes the distance? Really too late now, I ordered the 16".


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Big Bird
10-13-2012, 06:14
Do you know by how much it changes the distance? Really too late now, I ordered the 16".


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If you take a standard Federal Gold Medal Match load with the 175 grain bullet you will see a muzzle velocity of around 2650 fps with a 20" barrel. Trim it back to 16" and you are looking at about 2450 (I disagree with the 100 fps loss per inch--its more like 50 fps in my experience).

If you really want an eye opener look up the numbers for a Sierra 168 Gold Medal Match load and make the velocity adjustment for the shorter barrel and look where it goes sub-sonic. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people try to shoot that load at 1,000 yards with a short barrel gun and have been in the pits and have seen the bullets keyhole. I've had more than a few people here tell me I'm full of crap when I say this. But the ballistics calculator doesn't lie. Run the numbers for yourself. The 168 grain bullet is a crappy long range bullet for different reasons as well. But the retained velocity of this bullet out of a short barrel is pitiful.

Run the above numbers through any ballistics calculator and you will see that the 20" barrel keeps the 175 grain supersonic well out to ~1100 yards while the 16" barrel will be dropping below the supersonic barrier at ~1,000 yards. That's at sea level.

At 500 and beyond its the wind that gets you though and velocity matters in the wind. Its not the wind you can dope that gets you. (providing you can dope wind) Its the wind that you can't predict. I've personally used windage corrections at 1,000 yards that involved 30 quarter MOA clicks of applied windage--that's more than 7 feet of wind drift...:shocked: If a small gust catches you bullet it will blow it 9-10 inches at 1,000. Again, velocity matters--and I should rephrase that to; RETAINED velocity matters most. Muzzle velocity is largely irrelevant except that it contributes to retained velocity downrange.

I'm unimpressed with people who tell me things like I've seen people make hits with a given platform at 1,000 yards etc. How many shots did it take to make a hit? Under what conditions? Known distance range? Sighters? Hell, if I throw enough lead downrange with my Colt Single Action I'm quite certain I can make hits at 500 yards...

TheBelly
10-13-2012, 07:18
Insert all the stuff that Big Bird said...

Paraphrashing what big bird wrote:

Load development has a large role to play in where (along the flight path) a bullet will go into the subsonic speeds. BC of the projectile gets a vote here.

Environmental (particularly the density altitude and wind conditions) can wreak havoc on your attempts... Ballistic solvers are all well and good, but the bullet really tells you what's going on.

True the ballistic solver and then you have the no-crap answer as to what is happening between the internal and external ballistics of your rifle/bullet combo.

Big Bird
10-13-2012, 11:44
Paraphrashing what big bird wrote:

Load development has a large role to play in where (along the flight path) a bullet will go into the subsonic speeds. BC of the projectile gets a vote here.

Environmental (particularly the density altitude and wind conditions) can wreak havoc on your attempts... Ballistic solvers are all well and good, but the bullet really tells you what's going on.

True the ballistic solver and then you have the no-crap answer as to what is happening between the internal and external ballistics of your rifle/bullet combo.

Its also been my experience in working up 1,000 yard loads that standard deviation means a lot in terms of accuracy. You take a .308 load of most any flavor with a standard deviation of between 30 and 40 FPS and you have a built in 1-1.5 MOA dispersion factor at 1,000 yards added to the mechanical accuracy of the platform. That's 10-12" load to load vertical dispersion on the target based solely on small velocity changes. I always tried to get my long range loads down to under 10 FPS Standard Deviation.

Travclem
11-30-2012, 10:45
Thread Resurrection.

Still waiting on the rifle but the suppressor is in. I think I have decided on the NF F1 3.5-15x50 with the NP-RF1 reticle and an Aimpoint T1 in a LaRue offset mount. I was going to get the H58/H59 reticle but the premium that reticle commands is the same price as the T1.

Anyone have any experience with this particular scope?

Matthew Courtney
11-30-2012, 12:14
I ended up with an 18 inch LR .308 because that is the longest rifle that I can easily handle getting in and out of my vehicles. Getting tangled up while trying to deploy a rifle is potentially a bigger issue for me than being limited to 987.2 yards. For those who enjoy 1000+ yard competitions, choose what works best for you.

Matthew Courtney
11-30-2012, 12:18
Would anybody else be interested in a .260 rem AR style rifle if one of the higher quality makers built one? That would be a sweet 18 inch rifle.

Travclem
11-30-2012, 12:31
Would anybody else be interested in a .260 rem AR style rifle if one of the higher quality makers built one? That would be a sweet 18 inch rifle.
I think that would be really cool for long range. The .260 flat smokes the .308 at long ranges.

MrMurphy
11-30-2012, 14:41
Trav I've shot that scope, on an OBR, but only at 100m.

Travclem
11-30-2012, 20:40
Trav I've shot that scope, on an OBR, but only at 100m.
Seems to be everyone's experience. I guess I'll just have to cough up the $2300 and try it out.:supergrin:

Big Bird
12-08-2012, 07:41
I think that would be really cool for long range. The .260 flat smokes the .308 at long ranges.


Maybe handloaded it does. But I don't see any off the shelf ammo that will do it. All the commercial ammo I've seen is mostly 300 yard deer loads.

banjobob
12-08-2012, 08:27
TravClem, I'm very jealous. I have an AR10T that sucks and is getting a new barrel as we speak. I have no idea how much money I spent on trips to the range, load development, shipping costs to armalite for 2 new barrels before I threw the towel in and acknowledged armalite sucked. I now am paying for a bartlein to be put on it and would have been so much better off with an OBR.

During that process I bought the 5.56 OBR in 18" It is magnificent, test group was slightly over 1/2 minute. I can consistently shoot it the same and sometimes better.

The lesson I learned was to buy quality once and be done with it. As a fellow Texan, I'm sure you will also share an extra source of pride looking at a silhouette of Texas on the side of your rifle. Good for you.

WoodenPlank
12-08-2012, 08:38
TravClem, I'm very jealous. I have an AR10T that sucks and is getting a new barrel as we speak. I have no idea how much money I spent on trips to the range, load development, shipping costs to armalite for 2 new barrels before I threw the towel in and acknowledged armalite sucked. I now am paying for a bartlein to be put on it and would have been so much better off with an OBR.

During that process I bought the 5.56 OBR in 18" It is magnificent, test group was slightly over 1/2 minute. I can consistently shoot it the same and sometimes better.

The lesson I learned was to buy quality once and be done with it. As a fellow Texan, I'm sure you will also share an extra source of pride looking at a silhouette of Texas on the side of your rifle. Good for you.

We call it "Buy once, cry once."

Travclem
12-08-2012, 08:42
Maybe handloaded it does. But I don't see any off the shelf ammo that will do it. All the commercial ammo I've seen is mostly 300 yard deer loads.

Here are some good off the shelf loads.
http://www.southwestammunition.com/category_s/83.htm

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_361/products_id/4832


.260 is a ballistically superior round in every aspect to the .308. The 142gr. 6.5mm matchking has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the .308 175gr and 190gr. Matchkings. At distance, the .260 blows the .308 out of the water. It shoots flatter and has less wind drift.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/?p=2
According to this article by Zak Smith, a 140gr .260 carries 87% of the energy of a 190gr .300win mag at 1000yds.


IMO the only reason .308 is popular is due to its military use. 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm are all ballistically superior to the 7.62mm.

WoodenPlank
12-08-2012, 09:16
.260 is a ballistically superior round in every aspect to the .308. The 142gr. 6.5mm matchking has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the .308 175gr and 190gr. Matchkings. At distance, the .260 blows the .308 out of the water. It shoots flatter and has less wind drift.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/?p=2
According to this article by Zak Smith, a 140gr .260 carries 87% of the energy of a 190gr .300win mag at 1000yds.


IMO the only reason .308 is popular is due to its military use. 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm are all ballistically superior to the 7.62mm.
I've been curious about 6.5 Lapua for some time now. I wonder if an AR-10 pattern rifle could be made to work in it....

Travclem
12-08-2012, 09:24
I've been curious about 6.5 Lapua for some time now. I wonder if an AR-10 pattern rifle could be made to work in it....
Sure could, it shares the .308 casehead as well. Just have to get a barrel chambered for it.

Here is another good read on the 6.5mms by Zak.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

WoodenPlank
12-08-2012, 09:29
Sure could, it shares the .308 casehead as well. Just have to get a barrel chambered for it.

Here is another good read on the 6.5mms by Zak.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

Heh. I was just reading that article, actually.

Travclem
12-08-2012, 09:33
TravClem, I'm very jealous. I have an AR10T that sucks and is getting a new barrel as we speak. I have no idea how much money I spent on trips to the range, load development, shipping costs to armalite for 2 new barrels before I threw the towel in and acknowledged armalite sucked. I now am paying for a bartlein to be put on it and would have been so much better off with an OBR.

During that process I bought the 5.56 OBR in 18" It is magnificent, test group was slightly over 1/2 minute. I can consistently shoot it the same and sometimes better.

The lesson I learned was to buy quality once and be done with it. As a fellow Texan, I'm sure you will also share an extra source of pride looking at a silhouette of Texas on the side of your rifle. Good for you.

I have learned that lesson a few times myself.:wavey: 9 times out of 10 you spend less money by buying the better item right out of the gate, even though the initial cost is higher.

WoodenPlank
12-08-2012, 09:44
I have learned that lesson a few times myself.:wavey: 9 times out of 10 you spend less money by buying the better item right out of the gate, even though the initial cost is higher.


This is the damn truth. I have learned this lesson the hard way once or twice - never again.

Big Bird
12-08-2012, 15:28
Here are some good off the shelf loads.
http://www.southwestammunition.com/category_s/83.htm

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_361/products_id/4832


.260 is a ballistically superior round in every aspect to the .308. The 142gr. 6.5mm matchking has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the .308 175gr and 190gr. Matchkings. At distance, the .260 blows the .308 out of the water. It shoots flatter and has less wind drift.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/?p=2
According to this article by Zak Smith, a 140gr .260 carries 87% of the energy of a 190gr .300win mag at 1000yds.


IMO the only reason .308 is popular is due to its military use. 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm are all ballistically superior to the 7.62mm.

Holy crap! That stuff's $1.50 a pop... Won't be shooting a lot of that. :wow: But of course it comes with superb Lapua brass so at least you have something to reload.

I don't doubt the long range numbers on the .260 a bit and cartainly if you shoot a good deal at long range the reduced recoil helps as well.

But at the end of the day there's no magic long range bullet/cartridge. Shooting at 600 and beyond is truly a game of skill and no ballistic coefficient or velocity delta will save you. You either know your come ups and wind dope or you don't. And it really matters not a hill of beans if you have to add 12 clicks right windage and I have to add 15 at 800 yards You either dial it in or you miss. Same with come ups.

At 1,000 yards a top Palma shooter with 155 grain bullets and iron sights will outshoot a novice shooter with a Nightforce scope and a .260 Remington with 142 grain match bullets all day long. I've seen it with even more experienced long range shots.

Truly the equipment can give you an edge. But it won't win the day.

In truth--if you have "work" to do at 1,000 yards (not just punching holes in paper) you will be beter served with a larger cartridge like a .300 Win Mag or a .338 Lapua. There's no substitute for mass when it comes to really getting the job done WAY downrange.

Travclem
12-08-2012, 15:42
Holy crap! That stuff's $1.50 a pop... Won't be shooting a lot of that. :wow: But of course it comes with superb Lapua brass so at least you have something to reload.

I don't doubt the long range numbers on the .260 a bit and cartainly if you shoot a good deal at long range the reduced recoil helps as well.

But at the end of the day there's no magic long range bullet/cartridge. Shooting at 600 and beyond is truly a game of skill and no ballistic coefficient or velocity delta will save you. You either know your come ups and wind dope or you don't. And it really matters not a hill of beans if you have to add 12 clicks right windage and I have to add 15 at 800 yards You either dial it in or you miss. Same with come ups.

At 1,000 yards a top Palma shooter with 155 grain bullets and iron sights will outshoot a novice shooter with a Nightforce scope and a .260 Remington with 142 grain match bullets all day long. I've seen it with even more experienced long range shots.

Truly the equipment can give you an edge. But it won't win the day.

In truth--if you have "work" to do at 1,000 yards (not just punching holes in paper) you will be beter served with a larger cartridge like a .300 Win Mag or a .338 Lapua. There's no substitute for mass when it comes to really getting the job done WAY downrange.
All true, I was just saying that a .260 flat smokes a .308. I like my .308s and just spent a lot of money on another one. My argument was strictly on the actual round's performance, not that it would make up for a lack of skill. Although, every little advantage helps when you are shooting on the razors edge of accuracy at distance. Since you can't stuff a .300WM in an AR, the .260 just almost gets you the same performance.

I would like to have a .408 Cheytac. That is THE long range "work" cartridge at this point it time. Way too expensive for me though.