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ilgunguygt
10-12-2012, 14:51
I have a question for the GT braintrust. I am currently selling a rifle. A person responded to my armslist ad and wants to buy it. I live in IL and so does this other person. He actually lives about 4 hours north of me, up by Chicago.

We agreed to a price, and then he asked me "Hey, I have a friend thats going to be in (insert name of town just down the road from me) on Sunday and Monday, do you think you could meet him there and have him pick it up for me?"

Now, the only IL state law regarding this type of personal sale is that you must keep a record of the transaction, including FOID(communist card) card number for 10 years along with serial numbers. That being said, the guy that would be paying me isnt the ultiimate buyer. If I were an FFL I would say STRAW PURCHASE!!! I am not an FFL though, I dont know if its legit or not.

Is it legal? Should I insist on both of thier information for the legal requirements, or just the guy picking it up?

Please help.:embarassed:

JLB768
10-12-2012, 14:56
Had that happen to me recently, I told the guy that his friend would have to buy it, after showing me his valid drivers license, and valid carry permit(the friends). The receipt/paperwork between us, would be in his friends name, as that is who it picking up/taking possession. His friend could then sell it to him. I never heard back from the guy...

dan1488
10-12-2012, 15:51
your in IL so thats a whole nuther ball of wax but I was in the middle of purchasing a rifle the guy had it on consignment at a local gun store. I met him and gave half down. Not sure of the exact days but I had to go out of town for the weekend and when he got the gun a friend of mine went and met him and paid off the rest and got my gun. Sometimes people read way to much into things.

eb07
10-12-2012, 16:56
I only do FFL transfers with strangers. No exceptions

brianfede
10-12-2012, 17:03
I have a question for the GT braintrust. I am currently selling a rifle. A person responded to my armslist ad and wants to buy it. I live in IL and so does this other person. He actually lives about 4 hours north of me, up by Chicago.

We agreed to a price, and then he asked me "Hey, I have a friend thats going to be in (insert name of town just down the road from me) on Sunday and Monday, do you think you could meet him there and have him pick it up for me?"

Now, the only IL state law regarding this type of personal sale is that you must keep a record of the transaction, including FOID(communist card) card number for 10 years along with serial numbers. That being said, the guy that would be paying me isnt the ultiimate buyer. If I were an FFL I would say STRAW PURCHASE!!! I am not an FFL though, I dont know if its legit or not.

Is it legal? Should I insist on both of thier information for the legal requirements, or just the guy picking it up?

Please help.:embarassed:


Does the friend have a FOID card? If so, why not just sell to him and have him sell it to his friend.

HerrGlock
10-12-2012, 17:09
Why not mail the purchaser the rifle? Yes, that's perfectly legal with in-state residents non-FFL.

To appease yourself, get him to take a pic of his driver's license and FOID and email it to you. Mail the rifle to the address on the driver's license.

Fredder
10-13-2012, 08:48
FOID cards are so strange. I have a friend in Iowa, and they have permission to purchase cards.... There are some wacked out rules in this country.

brianfede
10-13-2012, 09:56
If your interested I have a guy in Lake Villa that charges $25 for FFL transfer if you decide to go that route.

Z71bill
10-13-2012, 10:27
Does the friend have a FOID card? If so, why not just sell to him and have him sell it to his friend.


Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.

raven11
10-13-2012, 10:31
Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.

+1, sounds like a law enforcement bait

Clutch Cargo
10-13-2012, 10:48
Man, I'm glad I live in Texas. I've bought 2 rifles and a handgun at garage sales.

raven11
10-13-2012, 10:50
Man, I'm glad I live in Texas. I've bought 2 rifles and a handgun at garage sales.

but the point is "you" bought them, you didn't send your friend to buy the guns for you

goldenlight
10-13-2012, 11:00
+1, sounds like a law enforcement bait

This.

I sure as hell wouldn't stick my neck out like this, just to make it 'easy' for the buyer to get you into a FEDERAL PRISON. :steamed:

Walk, or run, away.

ilgunguygt
10-13-2012, 11:06
I thought straw purchases only mattered if it was from an FFL?

Angry Fist
10-13-2012, 11:09
Balls, meet chopping block? No way, dude.

brianfede
10-13-2012, 11:17
Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.

Sir,

I think you are correct and I am wrong now that I think about it. More and more seems like the FFL is the way to go if the original buyer can't pick up. Just not worth guessing whether something is legal or not. You know FTF with FOID or via FFL transfer is legal, stick with those 2 options.

Fredder
10-13-2012, 11:18
Man, I'm glad I live in Texas. I've bought 2 rifles and a handgun at garage sales.
Same for Kansas. In the last 10 years I have purchased exactly one firearm from an ffl. Just too easy to get what I want privately and not hassle with those damn forms.

TK-421
10-13-2012, 11:30
Hmm, apparently a personal straw purchase isn't illegal per-say, and the cops likely won't take a second look if it's done once. http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=319

Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a “straw purchase.”
http://grandpasarms.com/home/about/

However, I wouldn't risk it. Tell the guy you'd be more than happy to sell it to his friend, as long as his friend is legally allowed to own a firearm. If his friend is legally allowed to buy a firearm, and he is legally allowed to buy a firearm, then it shouldn't be a straw purchase.

But if you're asking me what I would do, I'd tell the guy I'll sell it only to him, in a face to face transaction, and I won't sell it to him and let his buddy be the courier.

Illinois is such an anti-gun state, I wouldn't even dare to toe the line there, because it's going to piss somebody off, and then they'll most likely try to make an example out of you, or something stupid like that.

ray9898
10-13-2012, 11:35
Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.


18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6)
(a) It shall be unlawful-

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;


18 U.S.C. 922(d)

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

Z71bill
10-13-2012, 11:38
Sir,

I think you are correct and I am wrong now that I think about it. More and more seems like the FFL is the way to go if the original buyer can't pick up. Just not worth guessing whether something is legal or not. You know FTF with FOID or via FFL transfer is legal, stick with those 2 options.

Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman :upeyes: will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale. :dunno:

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

:dunno:

Z71bill
10-13-2012, 11:53
Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.

Interesting - I did not know that

I guess this is the "Straw man loop hole" :rofl:

RHVEtte
10-13-2012, 13:16
Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.


Were it any other state, I'd agree with you. But as we're talking IL, particularly the Chicago region, I'm sure there are several over layers of laws to deal with. I'd say in person or not at all in this case. Now, if this was in a free state like IN, then I'd say to ahead and make the deal, but IL is just too much of a nightmare.

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uhlawpup
10-13-2012, 13:38
Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman :upeyes: will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale. :dunno:

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

:dunno:


I have to disagree on this one. If Mr. Strawman claims on the 4473 that he is the purchaser, and passes the required checks, you sold the gun to Mr. Strawman, not his friend. You have no control over what he does with the gun, and you have no knowledge of whether or not he may keep the gun for himself. The 4473 pretty much puts the onus on Mr. Strawman, at least in my personal opinion.

If you want a legal opinion, you need to have a lawyer research the decisional law for you, or do it yourself...

4 glocks
10-13-2012, 13:42
I had some strange request when selling a gun on Armslist.
I am in NC and some guy wanted to buy a gun from me in WI. He wanted me to give the gun to a "friend" of his in NC.
I did not reply to his email.

I think it was local LE trying to set me up. Selling one gun is not worth a federal or State firearms charge. Why not just ship it to a FFL in his city. Shipping may cost $20 to make it a legal sale.

If your gut tells you not to do it, then don't.

Breadman03
10-13-2012, 14:00
You won't lose anything by passing on the sale, assuming you were offered fair market value.

I would pass.

F14Scott
10-13-2012, 14:12
Were it any other state, I'd agree with you. But as we're talking IL, particularly the Chicago region, I'm sure there are several over layers of laws to deal with. I'd say in person or not at all in this case. Now, if this was in a free state like IN, then I'd say to ahead and make the deal, but IL is just too much of a nightmare.

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I have to say that this sort of answer drives me crazy.

Here, Ray9898 has cited chapter and verse on the proper prohibitions for a private sale. He has made a statement, and backed it up, that there is no "straw man" provision for a private sale, even in Illinois (where I used to live, so I know the score, there).

Then, despite the factual and dispassionate answer, another poster chimes in with, "Yeah, but just to be on the safe side, don't do it."

I knew a guy who, when losing an argument, would say, "I don't think you're right," no matter what evidence presented to him.

To him and the other unsure posters who "feel" better safe than sorry, I suggest to back up your feelings with facts or don't bother chiming in. It's just foolish noise.

For the record, I assert there are no special rules in Illinois regarding private sales of rifles, not in the Chicago area or otherwise. If anyone wants to state differently, I will gladly apologize and retract my statement when I'm proven wrong with information from a verifiable source. That's how it's supposed to work: find information and report it as fact, not: have feeling and report it as probable fact.

brianfede
10-13-2012, 14:27
Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman :upeyes: will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale. :dunno:

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

:dunno:

To clarify, I meant the seller should go to his FFL, have his FFL MAIL the gun to the ORIGINAL buyer.

HerrGlock
10-13-2012, 18:00
To clarify, I meant the seller should go to his FFL, have his FFL MAIL the gun to the ORIGINAL buyer.

Doesn't even need to use an FFL to mail it to the original buyer. They're both residents of the same state.

michael_b
10-13-2012, 18:16
Same for Kansas. In the last 10 years I have purchased exactly one firearm from an ffl. Just too easy to get what I want privately and not hassle with those damn forms.

As a fellow Kansan I can attest to this. Kansas is great in this regard.


-On mobile

Spiffums
10-13-2012, 18:51
I thought straw purchases only mattered if it was from an FFL?

That's what I was thinking. As long as the dude has his commie card your just selling to him and then he can give/sell/donate it to the guy who contacted you.

I like TN's cash and carry private sales.

ilgunguygt
10-13-2012, 19:03
That's what I was thinking. As long as the dude has his commie card your just selling to him and then he can give/sell/donate it to the guy who contacted you.

I like TN's cash and carry private sales.
I decided just for the sake of simplicity and my own piece of mind(because quite honestly this whole thing has become a little weird with him) that if he wants the rifle he can mail me the MO for the full amount plus shipping. When the MO is cashed I will mail it directly to him. I told him to include with the money order a copy of his foid card. If he doesnt want to do it that way, there isnt much I can do for him.

427
10-13-2012, 19:08
Trust your instinct. If it doesn't seem right, don't make the sale.

Hef
10-13-2012, 19:11
Have the friend meet you at the local PD to do the transaction. It tends to weed out the criminals.

Z71bill
10-13-2012, 20:28
I have to disagree on this one. If Mr. Strawman claims on the 4473 that he is the purchaser, and passes the required checks, you sold the gun to Mr. Strawman, not his friend. You have no control over what he does with the gun, and you have no knowledge of whether or not he may keep the gun for himself. The 4473 pretty much puts the onus on Mr. Strawman, at least in my personal opinion.

If you want a legal opinion, you need to have a lawyer research the decision law for you, or do it yourself...

You know the guy filling out the 4473 is not the real purchaser -

Are you helping someone commit a crime?



:dunno:

Seems like you are - but as screwed up as the gun laws are who knows - :wavey:

alexanderg23
10-13-2012, 20:35
As long as you have no reason to believe that either of them isn't legally allowed to own a gun, I wouldn't worry about it. Like said straw purchases only pertain to FFLs. If I found a gun a few hours away, I wouldn't have a problem having a friend pick it up for me from someone, only problem would be my buddies would shoot the crap out of it before I ever see it.

CanMan
10-13-2012, 20:37
It sounds like a good way to get on network TV talking to Chris Hansen with a hidden camera.

Clutch Cargo
10-13-2012, 23:57
but the point is "you" bought them, you didn't send your friend to buy the guns for you

Amen.

uhlawpup
10-14-2012, 08:54
You know the guy filling out the 4473 is not the real purchaser -

Are you helping someone commit a crime?



:dunno:

Seems like you are - but as screwed up as the gun laws are who knows - :wavey:

You conspire to commit a crime only if you can be reasonably sure of the outcome. Going through the FFL and his filling out the forms properly, how can you be shown to be a participant? Can you see into the future?

4 glocks
10-14-2012, 12:39
I decided just for the sake of simplicity and my own piece of mind(because quite honestly this whole thing has become a little weird with him) that if he wants the rifle he can mail me the MO for the full amount plus shipping. When the MO is cashed I will mail it directly to him. I told him to include with the money order a copy of his foid card. If he doesnt want to do it that way, there isnt much I can do for him.


Trust your gut feeling. I have let more than one deal pass because I did not feel good about it, and always sold the gun later.

Louisville Glocker
10-14-2012, 21:32
I decided just for the sake of simplicity and my own piece of mind(because quite honestly this whole thing has become a little weird with him) that if he wants the rifle he can mail me the MO for the full amount plus shipping. When the MO is cashed I will mail it directly to him. I told him to include with the money order a copy of his foid card. If he doesnt want to do it that way, there isnt much I can do for him.

Sounds like a good plan to me. If anything starts sounding sketchy in a gun transaction, why risk it? Really. The consequences are too severe. If you end up in violation of a gun law, guess what, you may never be carrying a gun again buddy.

I'm not completely up with Illinois laws (there are layers), all I know is that I've got to unload my gun and put it in the back as I'm passing through from IN to WI. Which sucks, because driving through N. Indiana and south Chicago is where I'd really like to have an accessible gun. Oh well. I hate when I've got a bunch of guns in my vehicle and I need to stop to see relatives in the Chicago area. But I just keep 'em all unloaded and in containers in the back of my vehicle, obey the laws, and no problems......

ZombieJoe
10-14-2012, 22:03
I also live in Illinois. If I was in this situation I would do FFL. If he lives close to Bolingbrook I have a buddy that does transfers for $25. If not I would just sell it to his friend . Make a legal transaction, keep records, and let them deal with the other stuff.

If you would like his FFL info let me know. Good luck with your sale.

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frizz
10-14-2012, 22:28
I have to say that this sort of answer drives me crazy.

Here, Ray9898 has cited chapter and verse on the proper prohibitions for a private sale. He has made a statement, and backed it up, that there is no "straw man" provision for a private sale, even in Illinois (where I used to live, so I know the score, there).

Then, despite the factual and dispassionate answer, another poster chimes in with, "Yeah, but just to be on the safe side, don't do it."

I knew a guy who, when losing an argument, would say, "I don't think you're right," no matter what evidence presented to him.

To him and the other unsure posters who "feel" better safe than sorry, I suggest to back up your feelings with facts or don't bother chiming in. It's just foolish noise.

For the record, I assert there are no special rules in Illinois regarding private sales of rifles, not in the Chicago area or otherwise. If anyone wants to state differently, I will gladly apologize and retract my statement when I'm proven wrong with information from a verifiable source. That's how it's supposed to work: find information and report it as fact, not: have feeling and report it as probable fact.

Only a FOOL would assume that something involving firearms is legal until proven illegal, particularly in an a jurisdiction that is anti-firearm such as IL.

Doing something in the above situation when something smells fishy is the way of the FOOL'S FOOL.

Following your advice is how men get raped in prison.

NickC50310
10-14-2012, 22:49
FOID cards are so strange. I have a friend in Iowa, and they have permission to purchase cards.... There are some wacked out rules in this country.

Thats only for pistols and its super easy to get. Our five year permit to carry also satisfies the permit to purchase. Its not even comparable to an illinois foid card.

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TK-421
10-14-2012, 23:04
Only a FOOL would assume that something involving firearms is legal until proven illegal, particularly in an a jurisdiction that is anti-firearm such as IL.

Doing something in the above situation when something smells fishy is the way of the FOOL'S FOOL.

Following your advice is how men get raped in prison.

:agree:

I've lived in Illinois, I was scared to do anything gun in that state, thanks to how nazi-like they are. If you want to carry your gun in your car, it has to be unlocked, unloaded, locked in a case, and the magazines and ammunition have to be locked in a separate case in a separate part of the car. Usually one case in the trunk, and one in the back seat. It's ****ing stupid how unconstitutional their gun laws are. :steamed:

ilgunguygt
10-14-2012, 23:07
Sounds like a good plan to me. If anything starts sounding sketchy in a gun transaction, why risk it? Really. The consequences are too severe. If you end up in violation of a gun law, guess what, you may never be carrying a gun again buddy.

I'm not completely up with Illinois laws (there are layers), all I know is that I've got to unload my gun and put it in the back as I'm passing through from IN to WI. Which sucks, because driving through N. Indiana and south Chicago is where I'd really like to have an accessible gun. Oh well. I hate when I've got a bunch of guns in my vehicle and I need to stop to see relatives in the Chicago area. But I just keep 'em all unloaded and in containers in the back of my vehicle, obey the laws, and no problems......

I agree with you, the whole thing has started to seem a little too weird, so I am not selling it that way, at all.

Actually, in IL you only have to unload and case. I drive around with a handgun in an unlocked case with a loaded magazine in the case with it on the passenger seat of my truck all the time. Totally legal.

The laws can be confusing regarding many things, but Illinois state law isnt what most people think it is. There is no "assault weapons ban" like in some other states. I can own as many hi-caps, ar-15s, etc as I want. The only thing that sucks about IL is the concealed carry situation, but that will be remedied soon.

It cracks me up on message boards though, people that have never been to Illinois talk about it like its the worst thing out there. Our laws are much better than some other states out there.

I

ilgunguygt
10-14-2012, 23:09
:agree:

I've lived in Illinois, I was scared to do anything gun in that state, thanks to how nazi-like they are. If you want to carry your gun in your car, it has to be unlocked, unloaded, locked in a case, and the magazines and ammunition have to be locked in a separate case in a separate part of the car. Usually one case in the trunk, and one in the back seat. It's ****ing stupid how unconstitutional their gun laws are. :steamed:

No, it doesnt. Whats stupid is how people spread misinformation on the internet. The only thing you said there that was right is that the gun must be unloaded. Loaded mags can be in the case with it, it can be sitting on the seat next to you also. No locks are required on the case.

TK-421
10-14-2012, 23:14
Hey what do you know, they must have changed it at some point. And by locked in a case, I didn't mean with padlocks, I meant you can't have it sitting in an open case. I'm merely repeating what had been told to me previously, but apparently I was misinformed. But it's all a moot point, because Illinois sucks and I'm glad I'm out of there.

frizz
10-14-2012, 23:17
I'll add to my reply to F14Scott:



a portion of the law cited to by Ray has this to say (edited for brevity and space):

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm ... to any [prohibited person] ... having reasonable cause to believe such person is [a prohibited person]
The question is what "otherwise dispose of" means with regard to selling to Mr. Friend who you know is going to then transfer it to Mr. Suspicious.

I can easily see the structure of the private sale being interpreted as "otherwise dispose of". As I write this, I can see it being interpreted the same as a direct sale. Courts frequently disregard the formal motions of contracts and look at what the parties knew and intended to really happen.

As for "reasonable cause to believe", he has already expressed suspicion that the buyer is a prohibited person. These circumstances raise red flags, and insisting on a sale to Mr. Friend knowing that he will turn around and sell it to Mr. Suspicious is strong evidence of his belief.

If this guy is a felon and he gets caught, expect an investigation to lead back to you. I have read appellate cases of prosecutions that make you wonder why in the world did they prosecute this guy?

Even if interpretations go your way, prepare to bleed your savings to your lawyer.


It ain't worth the risk, OP. At this point, you don't want to deal with him at all.

ilgunguygt
10-14-2012, 23:33
Hey what do you know, they must have changed it at some point. And by locked in a case, I didn't mean with padlocks, I meant you can't have it sitting in an open case. I'm merely repeating what had been told to me previously, but apparently I was misinformed. But it's all a moot point, because Illinois sucks and I'm glad I'm out of there.
Yeah, Illinois sure can suck at times, not gonna debate or deny that.:rofl:

However, once we have conceal carry, there isnt too much that we wont have. Its coming too.

frizz
10-14-2012, 23:33
Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.

Ray, please eyeball my other post; there is also the criteria of not "having reasonable cause to believe" you are transferring to a prohibited person.

I'm glad you pasted the statute because that phrase jumped out at me.

If you think that my reasoning is bad, I'll respect that. But I don't think it is unreasonable to say no to something involving firearms if you get a whiff of a rat and feel the need to investigate the law.

TK-421
10-14-2012, 23:40
Yeah, Illinois sure can suck at times, not gonna debate or deny that.:rofl:

However, once we have conceal carry, there isnt too much that we wont have. Its coming too.

Oh I don't doubt it, it's just going to take a while and lot of money. So glad we have the NRA, they're putting in a lot of hours in Illinois, I'm sure. Especially when one law gets shot down, and they make two more just as bad to take it's place. All it takes is time, and the sooner Illinois gets a CCW, the better. Then I might actually want to go back, so I can watch the Bears play, and get myself some Portillo's.

frizz
10-15-2012, 00:12
Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman :upeyes: will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale. :dunno:

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

:dunno:

Are you ridiculous? I think you have a good insight. If the field were not saturated, I tell you to get thee to a law school.

For those who think I am being ridiculous, consider an federal appellate case I read.

The long and short of it was that just a 72 hour mental health hold is a commitment, even if the judge finds that you are OK at the actual hearing.


These are the details.

FACTS: Mr. Convicted was taken to a hospital's mental ward for an emergency 72 hour hold. Shortly after he got there, staff called a judge who made the formal order for the 72 hour hold so that everyone could prepare for his commitment hearing. At that hearing, he was found to not need commitment.

He was later found in possession of a firearm, and the feds prosecuted him as someone who had "been committed to any mental institution."

The judge's approval of the 72 hour hold was held to be a commitment by itself. The hearing that "cleared" him didn't matter because he had already been committed by the judge's order for the 72 hour hold.

His conviction was upheld.

(Note: Another fact that was not a factor in the court's decision: The guy decided on his own free will to stay for a couple of weeks. Just checking yourself into a mental hospital is not considered to be a commitment.)


If that doesn't give you pause, I don't know what will. People have been put in 72 hour holds because they jokingly said they were going to kill themselves, and someone thought they were serious. The psychiatrist can say that there is no problem, and the probate court can cut you lose.

Would you think that would be considered to be a commitment?

TK-421
10-15-2012, 00:19
Would you think that would be considered to be a commitment?

Yup, I definitely think that guy was committed to a mental institution. The judge ordered him to be committed to the mental institution for 72 hours, so he was committed. The law doesn't specify a necessary minimum amount of time, the fact that the judge ordered him to be committed is enough to make him ineligible to own a firearm. Whether he was later cleared or not doesn't matter, what matters is that at some point he was committed to a mental institution.

Now, do I believe he should be barred from owning a firearm? No, as long as he's clear in the head. However, the law is the law, and the only thing we can do is change it after the fact.

frizz
10-15-2012, 00:33
Yup, I definitely think that guy was committed to a mental institution. The judge ordered him to be committed to the mental institution for 72 hours, so he was committed. The law doesn't specify a necessary minimum amount of time, the fact that the judge ordered him to be committed is enough to make him ineligible to own a firearm. Whether he was later cleared or not doesn't matter, what matters is that at some point he was committed to a mental institution.


I'm gonna have to disagree. I just see this as something like a search warrant. The judge is just saying "we need to look into this, so let's be safe and hold him until we can get ready for a hearing." That's just getting the ball rolling.

Under the laws of my state, there are specific findings that have to be made, and it isn't considered to be a commitment until and unless the judge make specific findings and orders treatment.

Another analogy would be to an arrest on suspicion of a felony, but the charges are dropped or the grand jury refuses to indict.

TK-421
10-15-2012, 01:04
Well, the way the law is written, I see it as him being committed. Sure he's not being committed for treatment, but he still got committed. It's like getting checked into a hospital to get tests run. Once you get checked in, you're checked in. You can't suddenly turn around and say you were never checked into the hospital if your tests come back clean.

Now, if the law was written to say "No person may own a firearm if they have received treatment a a mental hospital." Then that would be different, but the law isn't written that way.

ZombieJoe
10-16-2012, 07:11
All it takes is time, and the sooner Illinois gets a CCW, the better. Then I might actually want to go back, so I can watch the Bears play, and get myself some Portillo's.

Portillos is great! Have you ever tried ordering from them? I sent some to my cousin in TX, he said it had the same quality.

I would rather do that and avoid the horrible traffic!

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Z71bill
10-16-2012, 07:57
You conspire to commit a crime only if you can be reasonably sure of the outcome. Going through the FFL and his filling out the forms properly, how can you be shown to be a participant? Can you see into the future?

You considering the Straw man telling the FFL he is the real purchaser as filling out the forms properly?

You know the guy is not the real buyer -

What do you think the outcome would be if while filling out the forms - the seller says (so the FFL holder can hear it) - I sure hope that your friend likes the gun you are buying for him - he must really appreciate having a friend like you - that is willing to drive down here - lie on the 4473 - commit a felony - just to save him from paying for shipping. :upeyes:

Is standing by and watching a crime being committed - one that gives YOU a financial gain - a crime?

tantrix
10-16-2012, 08:48
Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman :upeyes: will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale. :dunno:

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

:dunno:


Then "Mr Strawman" is going to get my gun as soon as cash hits my hand. In a private sale here, I am not required to go through an FFL, or interview "Mr XYZ" and "Mr Strawman". The NICS check is what determines if they are a felon, not me.




I'm sure in IL and other states there's all kinds of hoops to jump through, but where I live...cash hits hand, men shake hands, and gun leaves with new owner. It's literally that quick...I've sold a few firearms in under 60 seconds when both of us were pressed for time.

Mochahooligan
10-16-2012, 09:23
Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.

Very much so! do a FFL transfer you will be doing everything legal then.

panzer1
10-16-2012, 10:02
I only do FFL transfers with strangers. No exceptionsMe also. Its my butt on the line if that gun ends up some where on the badend of things.

NIB
10-16-2012, 11:01
Even if the law says it's OK, if it feels fishy don't do it. You'll either wind up taking to the Feds or you'll be featured on a MSNBC news special about the ease of criminals buying firearms.

Bren
10-16-2012, 11:49
I have a question for the GT braintrust. I am currently selling a rifle. A person responded to my armslist ad and wants to buy it. I live in IL and so does this other person. He actually lives about 4 hours north of me, up by Chicago.

We agreed to a price, and then he asked me "Hey, I have a friend thats going to be in (insert name of town just down the road from me) on Sunday and Monday, do you think you could meet him there and have him pick it up for me?"

Now, the only IL state law regarding this type of personal sale is that you must keep a record of the transaction, including FOID(communist card) card number for 10 years along with serial numbers. That being said, the guy that would be paying me isnt the ultiimate buyer. If I were an FFL I would say STRAW PURCHASE!!! I am not an FFL though, I dont know if its legit or not.

Is it legal? Should I insist on both of thier information for the legal requirements, or just the guy picking it up?

Please help.:embarassed:

Looks perfectly legal if you get the required info from the guy picking it up, to satisfy state law.

The federal law that covers "straw purchasers" for FFL's doesn't have anything like that for private sales, so unless your state law does, it isn't a problem. You aren't doing a background check on the guy, are you?

Bren
10-16-2012, 11:50
Me also. Its my butt on the line if that gun ends up some where on the badend of things.

How do you figure?

Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman :upeyes: will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale. :dunno:

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

:dunno:

Assuming that you are right that the seller is complicit in the strawman purchase through the FFL (which is arguable), you would actually be taking a perfectly legal sale and making it illegal by using the FFL, since only the FFL has to do a background check and rtequire the person to fill out the 4473 stating they are the actual buyer. The transaction originally described is perfectly legal for a private seller, absent something in state law.

18 USC 922 doesn't exactly say that a dealer can only sell a gun to the actual ultimate purchaser - but it does say that a person can't make a false statement in the paperwork and the paperwork asks if they are the actual purchaser - kind of a crime created by ATF's decision to put that question on the form.

Firearms Transfer Offenses: 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6) (“straw
purchase”), ...:
Section 922(a)(6) makes it unlawful for any person in connection with the acquisition, or attempt to acquire, any firearm or ammunition from a licensed dealer to knowingly make any false oral or written statement intended or likely to deceive the dealer with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under any provision of 18 U.S.C. 921 et seq. A violation of section 922(a)(6) is punishable by a statutory maximum term of imprisonment of ten years.

http://www.ussc.gov/Legal/Primers/Primer_Firearms.pdf

fwm
10-16-2012, 12:27
I only do FFL transfers with strangers. No exceptions

That's a little harsh and inconvenient, not to mention more expensive for the buyer.

If (big if) I were to sell a gun, I would advertise to sell it to licensed CCW holders only. Then I don't need to record the transaction or cost anymore money because I can testify if needed that he had proof he could legally purchase the weapon. (Some states don't even require FFL to check for CCW holders.)

Bren
10-16-2012, 12:54
That's a little harsh and inconvenient, not to mention more expensive for the buyer.

If (big if) I were to sell a gun, I would advertise to sell it to licensed CCW holders only. Then I don't need to record the transaction or cost anymore money because I can testify if needed that he had proof he could legally purchase the weapon. (Some states don't even require FFL to check for CCW holders.)

When (not uncommon) I sell a gun, I sell it to somebody in Kentucky, so I don't have to deal with an FFL, and I like to get paid in cash or trade for things of value or both. I have a CCW permit that exempts me from the background checks and I mostly buy from FFL's, but if I started to buy a gun from an individual and he wanted to go through an FFL, I'd tell him to forget it.

uhlawpup
10-16-2012, 20:59
You considering the Straw man telling the FFL he is the real purchaser as filling out the forms properly?

You know the guy is not the real buyer -

What do you think the outcome would be if while filling out the forms - the seller says (so the FFL holder can hear it) - I sure hope that your friend likes the gun you are buying for him - he must really appreciate having a friend like you - that is willing to drive down here - lie on the 4473 - commit a felony - just to save him from paying for shipping. :upeyes:

Is standing by and watching a crime being committed - one that gives YOU a financial gain - a crime?

No, you don't know the guy is the real buyer. That's the point. If he says on the form that he's the real buyer, how can you say he's perjuring himself unless he admits to it? If he says he's the real buyer under penalty of perjury, then he is, unless you prove him otherwise. Which are you going to believe, what he said before or what he swore to?

If you believe what he said before, don't sell him the gun. The rebuttable presumption is that he was telling the truth when he filled out the form, and the only way to reasonably rebut that presumption is to prove he bought the gun for someone who could not legally possess it, or as an agent for someone else.

Good luck with that.