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dbow
10-12-2012, 19:57
I finally got to shoot my G20 with my new dpm recoil spring, but now my POI has changed dramatically.

Before i added the spring system my groups were always about 1-2 inches above my front sight, now they are below my front sight about 4-5 inches! I'm shooting the same ammo, underwood 200 grain JHP.

Anybody else experience this?

blastfact
10-12-2012, 21:11
No ,,,, It's you. As if you had to ask.

I've never shot a round through my useless whore sloppy gen 3 euro thrash barrel. yeah know the one Glock rips you off on.

But my spec on cheap ass LW barrel is bad ass. and a nut buster. Forget the reloading books... Lets go nuke!

dbow
10-13-2012, 08:09
yeah i need to get a kkm 6" barrel. I'll have to go out again and see where i'm at. I never had to use a rest with this gun but i'm going to just to see where it's at.

Any Cal.
10-13-2012, 10:09
It is going to do the same thing regardless of barrel. Try some other bullet weights and see what happens.

OregonG20
10-13-2012, 10:55
No ,,,, It's you. As if you had to ask.

I've never shot a round through my useless whore sloppy gen 3 euro thrash barrel. yeah know the one Glock rips you off on.

But my spec on cheap ass LW barrel is bad ass. and a nut buster. Forget the reloading books... Lets go nuke!

You are hilarious. What makes you hate the Glock barrel so much?

dbow
10-14-2012, 19:37
It very well could be me, but i just can't believe the difference. I'm going to try some 180 grain and see what happens. Thanks!

dbow
10-14-2012, 19:56
Here is how my shot sequence went . Since i'm working a mag reload, i load two mags with two rounds each. Shoot two rounds, drop mag, load mag, shoot one round, stop. (Yes i need to get 3 mags)
First 3 shots were grouped within the size of a baseball. The next 47 shots were low 4-5, sometimes 6-7 inches low!!! Can't put my finger on it and it's bugging me cuz i ain't got a lot of money to be dumping out these expensive rounds.

Here is my form, feet shoulder length apart, knees bent, one eye closed, focus on front sight, arms locked, push pull, left thumb up, pad of first finger on trigger, squeeze trigger and hold, click and shoot for second round. 3-5 seconds between each shot.

Any advice you could give me? I'm really thinking about getting a .22 to help with my form too.

Opie 1 Kenopie
10-14-2012, 20:22
I'm a big advocate of leaving things STOCK. Especially if money is a concern. It looks like you didn't have these problems with the stock setup. Unbox your Glock, punch out the plastic dovetail protectors, hammer on some steel sights and shoot the Mutha.

dbow
10-14-2012, 20:29
I've thought about that too. I know that i need to be around 700 ft pounds of energy to hunt but at the same time who in the hell is really going to look or care. I was looking a HSA ammo that was cheap 10mm around 600ft pounds.

What do you mean about the steal sights? Do you have a recommendation?

Opie 1 Kenopie
10-14-2012, 20:34
A stock G20 will EXCEED 700 ft. lbs. of energy with quite a few loads. Underwood's 135 gr. Noslers come to mind. TNoutdoors has a great collection of videos on YouTube that test these rounds and I recall several climbing over 700 ft. Lbs.

Steel sights= anything but the stock plastic ones.
I use 10-8 Performance, Trijicon, Novak and even Glock factory steel night sights. All are DRASTICALLY better and more durable than the little plastic Lego pieces than come stuck on your Glock.

dbow
10-14-2012, 20:48
The 135 sound good but does it hit your frame? The bonded 155 looks like it would be killer too? I shot stock with the 200's and had no probs but it left one hell of a circle mark on the frame.

Do you ignore this or do you find it doesn't hit as hard with a smaller grain bullet?

Thanks for the sight ideas? I'm def going to check it out.

Opie 1 Kenopie
10-14-2012, 22:26
I've never noticed any frame bashing on my G20SF. I havent shot a whole lot of hot loads through mine yet, but you could test them, shoot lighter stuff for range time, and then load up your hot 135s or 155s for hunting/carry. I was pretty impressed with that Underwood stuff making 735 FP. Definitely a show stopper in a carry piece!

TDC20
10-15-2012, 22:24
Here is how my shot sequence went . Since i'm working a mag reload, i load two mags with two rounds each. Shoot two rounds, drop mag, load mag, shoot one round, stop. (Yes i need to get 3 mags)
First 3 shots were grouped within the size of a baseball. The next 47 shots were low 4-5, sometimes 6-7 inches low!!!

Any advice you could give me? I'm really thinking about getting a .22 to help with my form too.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, cause I'm telling you straight up I'm not. All I can relate is my own experiences learning how to shoot "hard recoiling" handguns.

It sounds to me a lot like what I used to struggle with when I was learning to shoot the .44mag. First shot would be dead center, then after that, shots all over the place, but mostly low. The reason was that first shot was relaxed and controlled, with a steady grip and a good trigger pull that didn't move the revolver and sight alignment while the hammer fell. After that first shot, the anticipation of the recoil caused me to be pulling down on the gun in when I pulled the trigger. The way I finally broke myself of this bad habit was to do lots of dry fire. At the range, I would only load 4, or 5 cylinders. Then the challenge was to keep the sights steady so that when the empty cylinder came up, the sight alignment didn't move when the trigger was pulled.

This may or may not be your problem, but it sure sounds similar. Try this next time you go to the range. Put your new recoil spring in and do some dry fire at your target, say 20 trigger pulls where the sights stay on target when the trigger breaks. Then load one round and fire it and see if you have the low impact problem. I'm guessing it will hit POA. Then change to the stock spring and repeat. My guess is that it will hit the same POA as the new recoil spring, or at worst, you will be shooting low with the stock spring because you are still anticipating recoil.

If you reload, or have a friend who reloads, make up a few "dummy" rounds and load them up randomly in your magazines. This will give you a similar effect as the empty cylinder trick with the revolver. It also doubles as a good tactical malfunction drill.

Bad habits are hard to unlearn. A decent .22 might help you to unlearn the nasty recoil anticipation habit, if that is indeed what is causing your problem.

dbow
10-16-2012, 19:10
Thanks tdc20, that's great advice. I could see that being the problem because (and i know i'm gonna get railed for this one) the G20 is my first and only pistol at this time. Yes i know i should have started with a .22, but you try and tell my wife i need two guns, one to learn and one to hunt. Cheeze she'd be all over that.

I really like the idea of putting a couple snap caps in the gun just to see how i react. I was watching the handgun show a while back and saw the host shoot a 50cal pistol, it didn't fire or something and i remember how bad he flinched, i bet i'm doing the same thing.

with money kinda tight right now i think i'll try the snap caps and 135 grain underwoods and see what happens. I assume that going from 200 to 135 should be a little noticeable?

As far as going back to the original spring, i think i will do that as well. Kinda pissed about it cuz i do have a 22lb spring with steel rod and now the dpm spring system. However i hate to say this but as soon as i starting switching springs i had feed failures and i did have a failure to eject with the dpm. Oh well, maybe i'll sell them both and buy more ammo.

Any Cal.
10-16-2012, 20:13
You might try another brand of ammo that isn't loaded as hot. Or spend 2-300 and get started reloading, it will cut your ammo costs by half or more, and you can make loads as heavy or light as you want.

copo9560
10-17-2012, 17:57
Try your original spring and a box of Federal 180 grain 40 S&W ammo from Walmart (the cheap stuff). Not ideal for your G20 but it will run and has far less recoil than full tilt 10mm ammo. If you are flinching, this will help a bunch.

dbow
10-17-2012, 18:52
I was actually looking at Hunting Shack Ammo. They are selling blemished rounds for under $20 for a box of 50. Since yesterday i've been dry firing the precious moment dolls off of my wifes china hutch. :) I'm totally flinching and pushing the gun down, i can already tell. Sometimes i pull to the left and down too. grrr

oldman11
10-17-2012, 19:08
Here is how my shot sequence went . Since i'm working a mag reload, i load two mags with two rounds each. Shoot two rounds, drop mag, load mag, shoot one round, stop. (Yes i need to get 3 mags)
First 3 shots were grouped within the size of a baseball. The next 47 shots were low 4-5, sometimes 6-7 inches low!!! Can't put my finger on it and it's bugging me cuz i ain't got a lot of money to be dumping out these expensive rounds.

Here is my form, feet shoulder length apart, knees bent, one eye closed, focus on front sight, arms locked, push pull, left thumb up, pad of first finger on trigger, squeeze trigger and hold, click and shoot for second round. 3-5 seconds between each shot.

Any advice you could give me? I'm really thinking about getting a .22 to help with my form too.
Don't lock your elbows.

dbow
10-17-2012, 19:18
how far do you bend in?

TDC20
10-20-2012, 21:34
Since yesterday i've been dry firing the precious moment dolls off of my wifes china hutch. :) I'm totally flinching and pushing the gun down, i can already tell. Sometimes i pull to the left and down too. grrr
For me, the Glock trigger has been one of the most difficult to master, but it can be done. Here's what I've found and how it works for me...

Imagine a line or axis from where your finger touches the trigger, through the center of the pistol's grip, to the center of the back of the pistol grip where the web between your thumb and forefinger touches the grip when you hold the pistol. That is the axis to apply trigger force on when pulling the trigger. Anything left, right, up, or down, off of that axis, is going to cause a shift in the pistol's point of aim when the trigger breaks. When you do your dry fire practice, consciously imagine that axis, and apply trigger force ONLY directly on that axis. When you do this correctly, there will be no shift in point of aim when the trigger breaks, because there are no forces acting in any other direction on the pistol, only the force between your trigger finger and the web of your shooting hand, directly on this axis. Once you get this to work with your shooting grip, start practicing with only one hand, and continue to loosen your grip while dry firing. If you are doing this right, and applying force only on the appropriate axis, you should be able to hold the Glock with only the thumb and forefinger of your shooting hand, and be able to pull the trigger back along that axis, and have no shift in sight picture when the trigger breaks. Once you can do that consistently, your trigger pull problem should be solved. Keep practicing this technique until it becomes so natural that you no longer have to think about it, or the imaginary axis. If you start having problems again, go back to this dry fire exercise until you work through the issue again. Dry fire is effective training because it allows you to repetitively reinforce the correct habits of sight alignment, trigger pull, and follow through. Follow through is successful when you are maintaining your hold (sight alignment) throughout the trigger pull process with no change in POA (point of aim). You want to do this until the entire CORRECT process is so engrained that it is controlled by your subconscious, or to say it another way, you don't have to think about how to do it "right" anymore, you just do it right.

One of the first things I did to my G20 was to install a 3.5lb trigger connector. After learning how to properly operate the trigger using this technique, I can now shoot the stock trigger, slow fire, as well as the 3.5lb trigger. While I have no argument about a 3.5lb trigger being easier to shoot "accurately" than a >5lb trigger, the fact is that in the hands of someone properly trained, there really isn't that much of a difference. IMO, light triggers are a "crutch" for people who can't or won't learn how to operate a reasonably heavier trigger pull. I used to think I needed a 2lb trigger pull on all my rifles until I started shooting high power competition, where the CMP requires a minimum 4lb trigger pull on a service rifle. After a few seasons, many hours of dry fire, and thousands of rounds downrange, I learned how to shoot that 4.5lb trigger as good as any other rifle I owned, and found myself re-adjusting some of my hunting rifles to a bit heavier pull.

Shooting is not like riding a bicycle...you will lose skills without practice. I continue to do dry fire practice just because of the convenience factor (I don't have to travel anywhere and the cost is zero) and the importance of a correct trigger pull to hitting your target.

dm1906
10-20-2012, 22:48
Excellent advice, TDC20. I like heavy(ier) D/A, light-short S/A, and a Glock trigger somewhere in the middle. A 4# trigger on a rifle is ideal for me, but it must be smooth with a clean break. Glock triggers are unique. I have a Ghost 3.5# connector in my G20. It didn't noticeably lighten the pull, but absolutely cleaned it up (smoother pull, more defined break, quicker/shorter reset). Very much unlike squeezing a grape (OEM Glock).

I'll add....
When you dry fire, you should have a suitable target. I prefer, and recommend, a mirror. Full length (wardrobe) is best, as it presents you with a life-size target, and you can watch yourself without watching "yourself". Lining up on the bore is easy, and it lets you focus at a distance and sight like you should in real time. If your muzzle is moving, you'll see it in the reflection. You should not be sighting AND watching your hands and weapon. It's a perfect practice scenario..... Shooting at someone shooting at you!

Another very effective practice method is a laser or flashlight (NOT with the mirror). I don't like lasers as sighting devices (although they are really cool, and make great movies), but they can really help with your form. At the very least, they will vividly show any platform movement while dry firing. Any laser or small flashlight (AAA) will work. A toy taped to your weapon is all it takes. For a few bucks, you can get a bore sighting laser, or a lot more for real laser sights. A toy laser is cheap, and some will fit in a .40 barrel (don't forget to take it out!). It doesn't have to be sighted with your open sights, it's only used as a reference to indicate movement while practicing. And, it looks really cool if anyone is spying your practice.

TDC20
10-20-2012, 22:58
Thanks tdc20, that's great advice. I could see that being the problem because (and i know i'm gonna get railed for this one) the G20 is my first and only pistol at this time. Yes i know i should have started with a .22, but you try and tell my wife i need two guns, one to learn and one to hunt. Cheeze she'd be all over that.
My first handgun was a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag :upeyes: so I know where you're coming from. It took me a long, long time to learn how to shoot it. I don't think you need a .22 to learn how to shoot the G20, though it could be helpful with some fundamentals, and hey...it's a good excuse for buying another gun. Personally, I'd hold out for a G29 when the time is right. :cool:

I really like the idea of putting a couple snap caps in the gun just to see how i react. I was watching the handgun show a while back and saw the host shoot a 50cal pistol, it didn't fire or something and i remember how bad he flinched, i bet i'm doing the same thing.
This is exactly what happened when I started doing the empty cylinder trick with the .44mag

with money kinda tight right now i think i'll try the snap caps and 135 grain underwoods and see what happens. I assume that going from 200 to 135 should be a little noticeable?
The snap caps are a great idea. If you can't find them in 10mm, PM me and I'll send you a couple of inert rounds.

What I've found with the 135's (Underwood is about 20fps hotter than my handloads) and the 22lb Wolf spring is that the recoil is sharper. The total ft-lbs of energy of the 135's is higher than the heavier bullets, so it stands to reason that the recoil will be stiffer, too. The lighter bullets only help reduce recoil if they are loaded to the same velocity of the heavier bullets. So, no, I don't think you will get much benefit from Underwood's 135's. Try some local gun store 10mm, like UMC, or Remington, or whatever. It's usually loaded with 180's, but the velocity is way reduced compared to full-power Underwood.

As far as going back to the original spring, i think i will do that as well. Kinda pissed about it cuz i do have a 22lb spring with steel rod and now the dpm spring system. However i hate to say this but as soon as i starting switching springs i had feed failures and i did have a failure to eject with the dpm. Oh well, maybe i'll sell them both and buy more ammo.
I'd keep the 22lb spring and guide rod. I think as you gain more experience shooting the 10mm, you will want the heavier spring, especially if you're shooting Underwood ammo. I have the Wolf 22lb spring and steel rod in my G20 and I have never had a FTF problem, even when using a .40 conversion barrel. However, I took my brother and nephew to the range this summer, and both had FTF's with this set up. I thought maybe there was a problem developing, but it has shot 100% for me since. So I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I'm coming to the conclusion that the FTF problem with heavier springs has more to do with the shooter's grip and technique than the equipment itself. The lighter (stock) spring will lessen the recoil impulse, and if that's the only way your G20 wants to shoot 100%, then use the stock recoil spring.

Learning how to shoot a hard recoiling handgun is not always an easy task. First off, I'll preface by saying that, for me, the G20 isn't really a hard recoiling gun, since I had experience shooting .44mag and .454 Casull before shooting 10mm. For me, the G20 is actually a very easy gun to shoot in comparison, since the energy is on par with the .357, except that the heavy slide mass movement of the semi-auto spreads the recoil out over time and greatly reduces the recoil impulse, which is what causes most people discomfort. Nonetheless, if a gun is beating you up, causing pain, inflicting injuries, or just plain intimidating you, then you aren't very likely to shoot it well. It can be intimidating knowing that a violent "explosion" is about to happen in your hand, but by now, you should have established that your G20 is not breaking skin, making your wrist sore, flying out of your hand, or hitting you in the head. If it is, then sell it and move to something smaller. But if you aren't having those problems, then mastering the recoil is 100% in your mind.

Once you have mastered the trigger pull and follow-through with your dry fire drills, the next step is getting comfortable with the recoil. I can say with confidence that you will never shoot your G20 to it's accuracy potential until you are 100% comfortable with the recoil. Otherwise, no matter what you tell yourself, you are going to anticipate something that, in your mind, is unpleasant. And that is going to adversely affect your ability to make perfect shots.

Let's look at what constitutes the "perfect shot." Just like in the dry fire drills, the perfect shot starts with a firm but relaxed grip, sight alignment with the target (aim small miss small), trigger pull along the imaginary axis causing no movement of the POA when the trigger breaks. That's it. I didn't mention recoil because the recoil is what happens after the bullet leaves the barrel on it's way to the bullseye. It really is that simple. You have to make an "allowance" for recoil. You know it is going to come, but it is coming after the perfect shot is made. So it is a matter of managing the recoil of the gun after the perfect shot.

How do you become comfortable managing the recoil after the shot? Well, you can do what most people do, which is putting thousands of rounds down range until they no longer fear or anticipate it. Or, you can use visualization to train your mind before you have to send thousands of rounds down range.

Visualization is a technique that professional athletes and all types of competitors use to train their minds ahead of competition. You can do this anywhere and anytime you have a few spare seconds and can focus your mind. It is exactly what it sounds like...in your mind, you imagine executing the perfect shot. You are at the range, you have your G20 ready to go. With a firm but relaxed grip, you see your sight alignment is steady and perfect with the target (aim small miss small). You begin your trigger pull along the imaginary axis causing no movement of the POA. The trigger breaks perfectly and you watch (keep your eyes open! very important!) as your sight picture dissolves in recoil. The gun jumps violently but controllably in your hand, then settles back on target quickly with perfect sight alignment. You have just shot a perfect "X". Repeat as often as you have time. This will help you get to where you want to be much cheaper and faster than sending thousands of rounds downrange, because you can do it anywhere at any time, and you are training your subconscious to separate the important skills for executing the perfect shot, from recoil, which is what happens after the perfect shot has been sent.

Good luck, and be safe!

4949shooter
10-21-2012, 05:38
Wow lots of great advice on this thread!

I echo the dry firing procedures. Learn trigger control and get rid of that flinch.

Then...as mentioned start out with some low power 10mm ammo. Federal 180 grain at 1030 fps is some soft shooting ammo. Try a session or three with this ammunition and build your confidence. Then, and only then would I transition to the Underwood, etc.

6-b-kwik
10-21-2012, 09:37
i just shot my g20 yesterday first time!! i am horriable with it thought gun had issue let a pro shoot it dead on!! i just suck learning this one right now went back to shooting my 40's and was fine!! all my 10mm shots were low and left it is a snappy gun im not giving up practice for me!!

dm1906
10-21-2012, 11:02
i just shot my g20 yesterday first time!! i am horriable with it thought gun had issue let a pro shoot it dead on!! i just suck learning this one right now went back to shooting my 40's and was fine!! all my 10mm shots were low and left it is a snappy gun im not giving up practice for me!!

This is actually very typical. The 10mm is intimidating at both ends, isn't it? Practice is the key. Practice and fundamental form.

6-b-kwik
10-21-2012, 12:23
This is actually very typical. The 10mm is intimidating at both ends, isn't it? Practice is the key. Practice and fundamental form.

yes it is my biggest problem is my breathing and trigger jerk i forget to use finger pad i go back to far on this one!! not sure why maybe nervous plus i shot it with 10 people watching me made me feel stressed but ill work on it!! i would like to get better sights im not a fan of glocks sight's

dm1906
10-21-2012, 13:04
yes it is my biggest problem is my breathing and trigger jerk i forget to use finger pad i go back to far on this one!! not sure why maybe nervous plus i shot it with 10 people watching me made me feel stressed but ill work on it!! i would like to get better sights im not a fan of glocks sight's

I understand about the sights. I don't care for them either (although I carried them for years). If they don't work for you, ignore them. Sight along the corner of the slide, like a shotgun. You can mark it with a soap stone, if it helps. A long, thin line along the corner can help with alignment. It's also less distracting while working on form. Follow the above advice, and address the sights after you can get decent groups.

dbow
10-21-2012, 17:39
wow thanks to everyone for the advice!! It has already helped.

CanyonMan
10-21-2012, 18:52
Whats wrong with this at 50yds and 'my hand loads', 200gr HC bullets, and the stock Glock OEM barrel !

Works great for me even at "very long ranges" ! ;)


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/pics053.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/cid__0805001426.jpg


OEM is more accurate than any of my after markets !

Good advice here from my brothers, BTW.... ;)



Just ridin by amigo's. Good to see y'all !





CanyonMan

ModGlock17
10-21-2012, 19:57
I'm not claiming to be an expert, cause I'm telling you straight up I'm not. All I can relate is my own experiences learning how to shoot "hard recoiling" handguns.

It sounds to me a lot like what I used to struggle with when I was learning to shoot the .44mag. First shot would be dead center, then after that, shots all over the place, but mostly low. The reason was that first shot was relaxed and controlled, with a steady grip and a good trigger pull that didn't move the revolver and sight alignment while the hammer fell. After that first shot, the anticipation of the recoil caused me to be pulling down on the gun in when I pulled the trigger. ....

+1.

You're evaluating the change in equipment but the biggest variable in the experiment is you.

People in golf have the same problem. They'd spend beaucoup dollars on Drivers, only to say it doesn't "work" as advertised.

I'd rest the gun (front of the trigger guard) on a consistently stable apparatus (like a 2x4 with a 1/2" knot cut). That stopped most of the downward flinch of anticipation, for me, until hundreds of rounds later when I started to get a handle on Trigger Control.

Best to learn basic trigger control on cheap ammo caliber, like 9mm. Once you got it, you pretty much got it for all calibers with a bit of "gettin' used to it" time.

One BIG advice on dry firing: put the ammo in another room, as well as your cell phone !

TDC20
10-23-2012, 23:03
One BIG advice on dry firing: put the ammo in another room, as well as your cell phone !
Good advice. Mags, too. You don't want to be that "I'm the only one professional enough..." guy. Same as field stripping, I always remove the mag, lock the slide back, and physically check the breech with my pinkie before I start dry fire. Even then, the first trigger pull of the session is aimed at a sure backstop and something that is inexpensive and/or requires the least amount of repair work. :tongueout:

Someone here on GT has a great signature line...The two loudest sounds known to man are a gun that goes "click" when it's supposed to go "bang," and a gun that goes "bang" when it's supposed to go "click."

Whats wrong with this at 50yds and 'my hand loads', 200gr HC bullets, and the stock Glock OEM barrel !
Nice shootin' CM!

I'll add....
When you dry fire, you should have a suitable target. I prefer, and recommend, a mirror. Full length (wardrobe) is best, as it presents you with a life-size target, and you can watch yourself without watching "yourself". Lining up on the bore is easy, and it lets you focus at a distance and sight like you should in real time. If your muzzle is moving, you'll see it in the reflection. You should not be sighting AND watching your hands and weapon. It's a perfect practice scenario..... Shooting at someone shooting at you!

Another very effective practice method is a laser or flashlight (NOT with the mirror). I don't like lasers as sighting devices (although they are really cool, and make great movies), but they can really help with your form. At the very least, they will vividly show any platform movement while dry firing. Any laser or small flashlight (AAA) will work. A toy taped to your weapon is all it takes. For a few bucks, you can get a bore sighting laser, or a lot more for real laser sights. A toy laser is cheap, and some will fit in a .40 barrel (don't forget to take it out!). It doesn't have to be sighted with your open sights, it's only used as a reference to indicate movement while practicing. And, it looks really cool if anyone is spying your practice.
Good advice, dm1906. Lately, I've been using the "advanced" dry firing medium... the big screen TV. The targets can be anything (not necessarily people) but the scenes are dynamic and constantly changing, so it challenges me to make quick shots of opportunity, and that's harder to make happen and still maintain perfect shot mechanics and follow through. But I think it's more "real life," and like I said, much more challenging than static targets. Plus the TV gives a really nice lighted contrast for sight picture.

I was really close to buying the LaserLyte device to practice point shooting, but I read some reviews about the reliability of them and decided against it. But I agree with you, the laser will let you know exactly what is happening to your POA if you're having trigger control issues. Actual laser sights are a great aid to point shooting, though I know that effective point shooting can be learned without the need of a laser at real-life SD ranges (20 feet and less). I practice live fire point shooting regularly as part of my CCW proficiency. But even with a laser sight, you still need to develop good trigger control and follow through to shoot well. The laser only tells you where your shot will go if nothing moves the point of aim before the bullet leaves the barrel. Laser sights for pistols are like 20X scopes for rifles...they can help a lot in certain circumstances, but they will never be a substitute for the proper shooting skills that are required to make them useful.

dm1906
10-23-2012, 23:16
Good idea, using the big screen. I think I'd be on the news channels a lot, lately. Lots of good targets there. Just as good may be during football games. Lots of dopes I'd like to shoot (figuratively). Mine and theirs!