L.A.P.D. Qualification [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Trigger Finger
10-12-2012, 22:54
Being a retired detective for LAPD this caught my interest.

It's interesting but I don't see how anyone could knowingly say that the average shooter could not pass the basic LAPD qualification course! Almost anyone could pass it with a minimal of training. Now specialized units like surveilance units and SWAT have considerably higher standards, the basic course is not that difficult.

The way they have it laid out is basically correct. The other information is also basically correct. You begin at the 7 yard line and their are more head shots but it is accurate in every other way as best as I recall. I did retire in 2005 so they might have changed it a little but certainly not much.

http://www.guns.com/debunking-the-lapds-handgun-qualification-myth-11196.html

SAR
10-13-2012, 17:06
Being a retired detective for LAPD this caught my interest.

It's interesting but I don't see how anyone could knowingly say that the average shooter could not pass the basic LAPD qualification course! Almost anyone could pass it with a minimal of training.

A lot of cops can't even pass it. I see officers going through it time and time again, twice, three times, even more, until they get a passing score. Some give up in frustration and come back another day. Luckily, I am not one of those guys.

CanIhaveGasCash
10-13-2012, 19:52
Since more and more departments are hiring people that look good on paper but that shouldn't be cops, qualifications have been dumbed down to the point where the lowest common denominator can pass. I'm not sure if that is the case with LAPD, but it is certainly the case with departments in my area.

I have had to change the qualification requirements when a significant number of people can't pass, not because the course of fire was difficult, but because certain people (admin included), don't deem it necessary to spend the small amount of time that is required to stay proficient.

CW Mock
10-13-2012, 23:37
Most qual courses are the "no cop left behind" type around here anymore. It's kind of sad to hear people sweating the "long range" shots at 25 yards.


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steveksux
10-14-2012, 00:18
What's the problem, do they forbid the use of sights for the 25 yard shots, or are they not using them voluntarily??? :rofl:

Randy

Tiro Fijo
10-14-2012, 01:21
Being a retired detective for LAPD this caught my interest.



...their [sic] are more head shots...


Good thing they didn't have spelling tests back then. :whistling:


http://www.better-english.com/easier/theyre.htm

:rofl: :tongueout:

CanIhaveGasCash
10-14-2012, 03:03
What's the problem, do they forbid the use of sights for the 25 yard shots, or are they not using them voluntarily??? :rofl:

Randy

The scary part is that my organization allows people to stay on the street that manage to fail the rifle qual and they won't make them re-shoot it. The sad part is that our rifles have optics.

RF7126
10-14-2012, 12:00
SAR,
Slightly off topic but I'm curious; I know SWAT and SIS (is that correct?) guys can carry 1911s, can patrol officers also qualify with and carry a 1911?

Trigger Finger
10-14-2012, 16:40
Good thing they didn't have spelling tests back then. :whistling:


http://www.better-english.com/easier/theyre.htm

:rofl: :tongueout:

I was a Detective Supervisor but spelling was not part of the promotion process. Reminds me of a Lieutenant I worked for who would constantly tell us " Yes, it was a great shooting and all the reports are completed properly but you misspelled this word, here let me circle it in red felt tipped pen. Now redo everything." :supergrin::supergrin:

That's what happens when an old timer tries to speed type. :rofl:


RF7126, when I was on the job (prior to 2005) the only section or division authorized to carry a 1911 was SWAT. As near as I recall.
Only after I retired, keeping in touch with old partners, SIS became authorized to carry a 1911, Glock 21 or 4506 if you carried a S&W prior to 2000 or 2001. Prior to that SIS used the S&W 4506 or 4566 that were engraved by the department.

The average patrol officer is authorized to carry a Glock 21, or if you go through a two or three day school AND qualify every month, can carry a 1911. I believe SAR is authorized to carry a 1911 so he would know more about what's going on currently!

SAR, I am sure your knowledge on patrol qualification is much better than mine and perhaps I spoke too soon. After about 1992 I had very little dealings with patrol.

TF

SAR
10-14-2012, 20:51
SAR, I am sure your knowledge on patrol qualification is much better than mine and perhaps I spoke too soon. After about 1992 I had very little dealings with patrol.

TF

Patrol Qualification is no different from Detective qualification. Everyone qualifies at the same ranges; either Elysian Park, Davis or the Harbor. You can qualify on either the Combat or Bonus Course. A year or two ago, they changed the qualification dates for everyone. So it's no more Odd or Even serial numbers. Now everyone qualifies in two month cycles. I actually hate the new system and prefer the old way where the months you qualified were determined by your Department Serial Number. Odd Serials qualified in certain months and Even Serials in the other months. I just quit trying to remember the qualification cycle and qualify every month with my handgun and quarterly with my rifle.

As for 1911 shooters, you have to first shoot Expert on the Bonus range to go to the 1911 transition school. Then you have to go to the 3 day school, and finally, 1911 shooters must qualify every month. But yes, Patrol Officers can carry 1911s.

Goldendog Redux
10-14-2012, 21:18
We qualify a gazillion times a year it seems...pistol, backup, off duty, shotgun, rifle, subgun, M14. Since I do a specialized thing, ours if different than the standard course. I gotta say, I hate qualifying. I do just fine, I just don't like it. I hate the bi-annual PT test too-even though I am pretty awesome at that.

I like shooting and PT. I guess I pretty much don't like being told what to do:whistling:

GRIMLET
10-14-2012, 21:28
The scary part is that my organization allows people to stay on the street that manage to fail the rifle qual and they won't make them re-shoot it. The sad part is that our rifles have optics.


Say wha....??????
Do they, at least, take the rifles from them?
If not, what a liability nightmare possibility.

PEC-Memphis
10-15-2012, 14:06
Good thing they didn't have spelling tests back then. :whistling:


http://www.better-english.com/easier/theyre.htm

:rofl: :tongueout:

Good thing they didn't have spelling grammar tests back then. :tongueout:

A lot of cops can't even pass it. I see officers going through it time and time again, twice, three times, even more, until they get a passing score. Some give up in frustration and come back another day. Luckily, I am not one of those guys.

Before the Tn Department of Safety administered the HCP program in Tennessee, the county Sheriff's Department had their own permit program. We shot the same CoF as the Sheriffs, and later other LE agencies within the county. None of the CoFs were nearly as difficult as the LAPD CoF described in the article - although passing for permit holders was 70% (annual) and LE was 80% (every 6 mos).

My average during these years was 99.3% with a S&W model 60. That was WAY before I even knew there were competitive action pistol sports.

Here (http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html) is the FAM qualification CoF - do you believe it to be easier or more difficult than LAPD?

RF7126
10-15-2012, 14:48
RF7126, when I was on the job (prior to 2005) the only section or division authorized to carry a 1911 was SWAT. As near as I recall.
Only after I retired, keeping in touch with old partners, SIS became authorized to carry a 1911, Glock 21 or 4506 if you carried a S&W prior to 2000 or 2001. Prior to that SIS used the S&W 4506 or 4566 that were engraved by the department.

The average patrol officer is authorized to carry a Glock 21, or if you go through a two or three day school AND qualify every month, can carry a 1911. I believe SAR is authorized to carry a 1911 so he would know more about what's going on currently!

TF

As for 1911 shooters, you have to first shoot Expert on the Bonus range to go to the 1911 transition school. Then you have to go to the 3 day school, and finally, 1911 shooters must qualify every month. But yes, Patrol Officers can carry 1911s.

Good to know, thanks! That does sound challenging to get, but it's a good incentive for us 1911 fans. Now if only my department would allow for 1911s! I tried talking to the chief, but he's pretty set with a universal sidearm.

PEC-Memphis
10-15-2012, 15:54
Then you have to go to the 3 day school, and finally, 1911 shooters must qualify every month. But yes, Patrol Officers can carry 1911s.

Is there reason or logic behind this requirement?

RF7126
10-15-2012, 17:07
Is there reason or logic behind this requirement?

I'm going to suspect lawyers behind this one.

SAR
10-15-2012, 17:08
Is there reason or logic behind this requirement?

Yes, the way it was told to me, SWAT and SIS have to qualify every month, so the Department wasn't going to make it any easier for the regular Patrol guys. On top of that, I actually think once a month is good. Shooting after all is a perishable skill. I've carried lots of guns, but the 1911 will get me in more trouble if I don't practice often.

CanIhaveGasCash
10-15-2012, 17:31
Say wha....??????
Do they, at least, take the rifles from them?
If not, what a liability nightmare possibility.

They are still allowed to carry rifles. One person hasn't actually passed the rifle qual in 2 years. The admin won't listen though.

Trigger Finger
10-15-2012, 21:51
They are still allowed to carry rifles. One person hasn't actually passed the rifle qual in 2 years. The admin won't listen though.


It makes me wonder why even have qualifications if there is no repercussions for repeatedly failing!!! :shocked:

CanIhaveGasCash
10-16-2012, 03:48
It makes me wonder why even have qualifications if there is no repercussions for repeatedly failing!!! :shocked:

Beats me. At least I know who to tell to stay out of the way when SHTF.

vanilla_gorilla
10-16-2012, 04:54
Yes, the way it was told to me, SWAT and SIS have to qualify every month, so the Department wasn't going to make it any easier for the regular Patrol guys. On top of that, I actually think once a month is good. Shooting after all is a perishable skill. I've carried lots of guns, but the 1911 will get me in more trouble if I don't practice often.

I'd be willing to do the whole schmeel just to be able to go qualify and shoot somebody else's ammo every single month!

SAR
10-16-2012, 10:14
I'd be willing to do the whole schmeel just to be able to go qualify and shoot somebody else's ammo every single month!

The Department provides the ammunition for the Combat range for the mandatory requalification cycle. You have to provide your own ammo for the Bonus range because it is not mandatory, and only serves to get your shooting medals and your Bonus pay.

RF7126
10-16-2012, 10:50
The Department provides the ammunition for the Combat range for the mandatory requalification cycle. You have to provide your own ammo for the Bonus range because it is not mandatory, and only serves to get your shooting medals and your Bonus pay.

You get extra pay for shooting well?:wow:

SAR
10-16-2012, 11:03
You get extra pay for shooting well?:wow:

Yes, we get Bonus pay:

Marksman $4 bi-weekly
Sharpshooter $8 bi-weekly
Expert $16 b-weekly
Distinguished Expert $32 bi-weekly

You have to re-shoot for Bonus pay a minimum of once a year, but you can shoot it every week if you want to, you just don't get paid any extra. You can only get one Bonus at a time.

JasonC8301
10-16-2012, 11:52
Yes, we get Bonus pay:

Marksman $4 bi-weekly
Sharpshooter $8 bi-weekly
Expert $16 b-weekly
Distinguished Expert $32 bi-weekly

You have to re-shoot for Bonus pay a minimum of once a year, but you can shoot it every week if you want to, you just don't get paid any extra. You can only get one Bonus at a time.

Wow, awesome. I wish the dept I am in would have that. Someone that shoots well and knows firearms is pretty rare. I guess that helps my shooting look good lol. We only shoot twice a year and think only once a year is the qual course which has the 25 yard line.

If I could carry a 1911 I think I would. Wilson Combat cqb running 230 gr gold dots. Heck I would pay for the gun and the ammo.

But when you have 30+ thousand officers, ammo budget is nuts to shoot twice a year let alone bi monthly. Favorite line "its a circus, everybody wins." i had to step off the line a few times because I didn't feel like getting hit by fragments from the folks around me hitting the metal target holder at 7 yards.

Ok off my soap box. Besides that I guess every dept has their ups and downs.

series1811
10-16-2012, 12:13
I've been shooting all of my life and passed the handgun qualfication test for the first agency (and the rest, too) the first time I shot it. I thought it was ridiculously easy, and was dissapointed it wasn't more challenging. Then I saw that about 3/4's of my class had failed it. What an eye opener. The truth is, most of the people in this country don't shoot guns on a regular basis, (or ever).

SAR
10-16-2012, 12:17
But when you have 30+ thousand officers, ammo budget is nuts to shoot twice a year let alone bi monthly. Favorite line "its a circus, everybody wins." i had to step off the line a few times because I didn't feel like getting hit by fragments from the folks around me hitting the metal target holder at 7 yards.

Ok off my soap box. Besides that I guess every dept has their ups and downs.

We only have 10,000 officers, but somehow, the Department has prioritized shooting and made it non-negotiable. We have to qualify with our handguns a minimum of five times a year, and also with our Benelli shotguns and Patrol rifles quarterly. We have 3,000 officers in the rifle cadre as far as I know.

series1811
10-16-2012, 12:21
Yes, we get Bonus pay:

Marksman $4 bi-weekly
Sharpshooter $8 bi-weekly
Expert $16 b-weekly
Distinguished Expert $32 bi-weekly

You have to re-shoot for Bonus pay a minimum of once a year, but you can shoot it every week if you want to, you just don't get paid any extra. You can only get one Bonus at a time.

That's nice. About all we got was free ammo (but pretty much as much as you wanted) every time you went, so I had a lot of incentive to go every chance I could. :supergrin:

SAR
10-16-2012, 13:13
That's nice. About all we got was free ammo (but pretty much as much as you wanted) every time you went, so I had a lot of incentive to go every chance I could. :supergrin:

The only problem for us is that all of our range time consists of structured qualification relays with no opportunity for free range time. Consequently, I go on my own time with my own ammunition for enrichment, and only go to the Department range for actual qualification.

series1811
10-16-2012, 13:31
The only problem for us is that all of our range time consists of structured qualification relays with no opportunity for free range time. Consequently, I go on my own time with my own ammunition for enrichment, and only go to the Department range for actual qualification.

That was the way ours was, too. I put up with that to get the free ammo for my own fun time.

I used to say, only the government could take something fun like shooting, and make it unfun. :supergrin:

razdog76
10-16-2012, 14:00
Yes, we get Bonus pay:

Marksman $4 bi-weekly
Sharpshooter $8 bi-weekly
Expert $16 b-weekly
Distinguished Expert $32 bi-weekly

You have to re-shoot for Bonus pay a minimum of once a year, but you can shoot it every week if you want to, you just don't get paid any extra. You can only get one Bonus at a time.

Bonus pay?

Ours is pass/fail. If you don't pass, you can't carry a weapon, get discipline, and potentially days off.

SAR
10-16-2012, 14:12
Bonus pay?

Ours is pass/fail. If you don't pass, you can't carry a weapon, get discipline, and potentially days off.

So is ours. There are two ranges, the Combat Range and the Bonus Range. Two different courses of fire. The mandatory qualification is held on the Combat Course, while your pay incentive is based on your score on the Bonus Range.

Trigger Finger
10-16-2012, 14:23
So is ours. There are two ranges, the Combat Range and the Bonus Range. Two different courses of fire. The mandatory qualification is held on the Combat Course, while your pay incentive is based on your score on the Bonus Range.


And the Bonus range is harder, especially with a 45 ACP. :supergrin:
At least it was harder for me! Typically, in my Section we would shoot both the Combat and Bonus Range every month.

JasonC8301
10-16-2012, 14:28
What do you have to shoot at the bonus range to get Distinguished expert?

razdog76
10-16-2012, 14:39
So is ours. There are two ranges, the Combat Range and the Bonus Range. Two different courses of fire. The mandatory qualification is held on the Combat Course, while your pay incentive is based on your score on the Bonus Range.

No there is only one pathetically easy course of fire, shot once annually, with optional open range practice.:upeyes:

25pd
10-16-2012, 15:27
Many years ago when I ran the range & qualifications I made every member of our fairly small dept. fire the qual course twice utilizing each hand and believe it or not most did pretty good and only dropped their scores by a few points. One other thing I did was leave out boxes & boxes of ammo for the officers to practice with and found that most of the offiicers did not practice shooting at all as most cops that I know even now are not into shooting unless made to:upeyes: