Call it a conspiracy theory, if you want......but..... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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hogship
10-13-2012, 10:43
......it seems like the very act of mentioning possibilities is not allowed in public discourse, but hear this:

We know that someone authorized "Fast and Furious", and it would be a colossal act of stupidity to suggest that whoever did, KNEW without any doubt, that sending these firearms to criminal elements in Mexico would result in deaths......even, many deaths.

At this point, we know without any doubt that many requests were made for increased security in our Libyan embassy......by the ambassador.....and a number of others who feared for their lives. We know the requests were denied, and whoever did that, reasonably should have known the deaths of American citizens could, or would be the likely result......

Is isn't unreasonable to suggest that in BOTH these events, the resulting deaths may not have been the unintended consequences.......but, rather these deaths were the OBJECTIVE?


Why, you ask, would the American deaths in Benghazi be the objective? Assuming the hypothesis is true, who is to say for sure? There is a distinct possibility that the deaths in Libya could have been for the purpose of manipulating the news, re-directing public focus, or attention. If that were true, then obviously the plan didn't have the desired result.......but, the deaths still did occur as a result of politics......and if that were so, it would be murder.

If the decisions were made by the same person, would it be unreasonable to connect the dots and assume murder was the intended result, and that result led to a certain political leverage, or advantage?

ooc

JBnTX
10-13-2012, 11:10
I just wonder if some of the biggest news stories were in fact faked to keep more damaging stories off the front page.

Did the Clinton/Lewinski affair even happen?

Was Osama Bin Laden killed long ago and his body frozen so it could be used later as a news story designed to keep something more damaging hidden from public knowledge?

Was Fast and Furious actually a cover up for our government's
attempt to destabilize or damage the Mexican government by deliberately supplying guns to drug cartels?

Did Obama "arrange" for an attack on the Benghazi embassy to order to divert a news story about his illegal campaign contributions?

The campaign donations story surfaced, the Benghazi attack happened, and illegal campaign donations story just vanished.

What will we never know about because of diversionary news stories?

..

DonGlock26
10-13-2012, 12:23
I believe Obama and his administration are typical incompetent progressives and have gotten a US ambassador, a federal agent, and 16 Mexican teens killed out of sheer liberal stupidity. Holder and Obama are racists though.

countrygun
10-13-2012, 14:00
Remember something my Grandpa told me,

"A pessimist, is someone who was once a very big optimist but got slapped hard by reality and never recovered"

It is hard to accept that gross stupidity plays such a factor in our society but, many times, it proves to be the case. In this instance however the players HAVE given "probable cause" for suspicion. The nature and intent of "F&F" is simply so obvious and yet, the thought that minds, that could be that devious, could also be so inept or so arrogant as to have actually implimented it does boggle the rational mind.

As far as such things in todays "relative intelligence" climate. you do have to wonder. a good example: Is Joe Biden really that stupid?.

Cavalry Doc
10-13-2012, 14:11
I just wonder if some of the biggest news stories were in fact faked to keep more damaging stories off the front page.

Did the Clinton/Lewinski affair even happen?

Was Osama Bin Laden killed long ago and his body frozen so it could be used later as a news story designed to keep something more damaging hidden from public knowledge?

Was Fast and Furious actually a cover up for our government's
attempt to destabilize or damage the Mexican government by deliberately supplying guns to drug cartels?

Did Obama "arrange" for an attack on the Benghazi embassy to order to divert a news story about his illegal campaign contributions?

The campaign donations story surfaced, the Benghazi attack happened, and illegal campaign donations story just vanished.

What will we never know about because of diversionary news stories?

..

Ever been in a meeting with more than 12 people. None of us is as dumb as all of us together.

I see a lot more chaos than control, and a lot more incompetence than diabolical schemes.

But there is obviously a lot of smoke around F&F, there was more too it than they have admitted so far.

By the way, the F&F whistleblower just got fired this week. No good deed goes unpunished.

DOC44
10-13-2012, 14:18
expendable political pawns for o???

Doc44

hogship
10-13-2012, 14:30
I believe Obama and his administration are typical incompetent progressives and have gotten a US ambassador, a federal agent, and 16 Mexican teens killed out of sheer liberal stupidity. Holder and Obama are racists though.

DonGlock26.......

I believe there are many people who feel the same as you do, and I also believe that it's easy to think Holder and Obama are nothing but bumbling fools that had no idea that anyone would get killed. (.....If the assumption can be made that Holder and Obama are behind the authorization of F&F.) To my way of thinking, the "bumbling fool" approach is the easy path to take, because who would want to think people in high places would intentionally want someone to die in the pursuit of their political motives.........right?

The deaths of Ambassador Stevens, and three other American citizens would be a little more difficult to conceive of their deaths as deliberately planned, but those who died as a result of Fast and Furious, is a little less defensible by the "bumbling fool" concept.

We were told the weapons were to be tracked to see where they went, but there was absolutely no method in place of actually doing that. If that is so, then it was known all along that from the moment of the transfer of these firearms, to the moment where they surfaced again, their whereabouts would not, and could not be known.......by a logical progression of thoughts and events, the location of these weapons wasn't the reasoning behind F&F in the first place.....as we were told. If there was no method of tracking the weapons, then the final destination WAS the point where they would eventually surface again. That final destination involved killings.......and ta daaaaaaa: media attention

If there is agreement that the resulting deaths were thought to be the most likely result by the F&F decision makers, or at least a possibility, then the initial objective of F&F becomes a little less cloudy, and a little more clear......and does make much more logic than what we were told. If A+B=C, then it's only a matter of connecting a few dots to suspect denial of security at the Libyan embassy, had at it's conception, a similar purpose as did Fast and Furious.......

Was it bumbling fools, and came down exactly as we were told........or, were these things the result of allowing/causing deaths to occur for political gain? (I don't think I will have to remind anyone that the latter is nothing new to those intending to exploit public opinion, by manipulating public opinion......throughout world history.)

ooc

ModGlock17
10-13-2012, 14:42
...
As far as such things in todays "relative intelligence" climate. you do have to wonder. a good example: Is Joe Biden really that stupid?.

A conspiracy requires intelligence to organize, meticulous and loyalty to execute it.

A conspiracy can occur behind the scenes, that employs a bumbler and a fool as the front, where both the bumbler and fool are expendable and never be part of the inner circle of conspiracy.

Conspirators are introverted thinkers. They don't go hogging public attention but rather shy from it.

Cavalry Doc
10-13-2012, 15:45
A conspiracy requires intelligence to organize, meticulous and loyalty to execute it.

A conspiracy can occur behind the scenes, that employs a bumbler and a fool as the front, where both the bumbler and fool are expendable and never be part of the inner circle of conspiracy.

Conspirators are introverted thinkers. They don't go hogging public attention but rather shy from it.

They tried to work behind the scenes, and were foiled by a whistle blower.

There is more to this than simply bumbling and letting guns be bought by straw buyers on this side of the border, and head south to the other side. There is a motivation to do that, and that is the key to the issue. WHY did they do it. The president (aka "Barry Big Ears") is hiding the answer to this question. On purpose.

countrygun
10-13-2012, 16:34
I agree with Cavalry Doc,

what was the "desired result"? Where are the bad guys they were supposed to "catch"? heck, who were they? How were guns in Mexico going to help US LE make any "cases"?

I want them to walk us through exactly how sending guns into Mexico was going to serve the purpose of reducing crime in America, which is what they are paid to do.

I doubt very much they can do it, simply because that was never their intention. So they can then tell us what their intention was. (yah, sure they will:upeyes:)

Skyhook
10-13-2012, 17:53
Two things come to mind: 1) According to a resource person on one of the FOX programs this morning (watched between flights), there is suspicion that Stevens was intentionally abandoned like ripe fruit. The guy (I really wish I could recall his name) seemed to think that the info will be forthcoming... eventually.
2) Then there's this; (similar to the Reichstag burning (?)) :dunno: http://www.9news.com/news/article/294136/339/Shot-fired-at-Denver-Obama-campaign-office- which has me wondering if - IF- we could not witness something similar to pound the populace into a quivering mass of pity generators who will rush to put poor Obama back into office where he can "complete his mission".

I swear, this administration with that Holder/Obama/Reid/Pelosi core has me thinking stuff I would never have imagined I would or could. :shakehead:

countrygun
10-13-2012, 18:09
You bring up the key question, In theis Administration what in the world kept them from giving more security? the cost? From this Administration, highly unlikely.

There was another reason. The danger was "Clear and Present" I begin to wonder what our Ambassador knew or thought that couldn't be allowed a hearing?


Or was it just a failed attenpt to gin up a situation to cloud the election?

hogship
10-13-2012, 18:13
According to a resource person on one of the FOX programs this morning (watched between flights), there is suspicion that Stevens was intentionally abandoned like ripe fruit.

I swear, this administration with that Holder/Obama/Reid/Pelosi core has me thinking stuff I would never have imagined I would or could.

Very similar to my thoughts on this. It's very easy to say to one's self that this is just too outrageous to think deaths might be occurring for the benefit of political gain.

It's not unrealistic, considering it's nothing new.

ooc

porschedog
10-13-2012, 18:16
I thought the idea behind F&F was to create more anti gun hysteria that would then allow Big Ears to follow up with his and Holders original intent of passing more laws to punish legal gun owners

Skyhook
10-13-2012, 18:20
You bring up the key question, In theis Administration what in the world kept them from giving more security? the cost? From this Administration, highly unlikely.

There was another reason. The danger was "Clear and Present" I begin to wonder what our Ambassador knew or thought that couldn't be allowed a hearing?


Or was it just a failed attempt to gin up a situation to cloud the election?

COST... convenient dodge/ruse, perhaps? I do recall one witness at the hearing saying that he had requested I think he said a dozen Marines and was told he was "asking for the sun, moon, and stars.."

hogship
10-13-2012, 18:23
I thought the idea behind F&F was to create more anti gun hysteria that would then allow Big Ears to follow up with his and Holders original intent of passing more laws to punish legal gun owners

You are right, and it was....., but only if you are inclined to distrust the official explanation.....

The deaths were the vehicle to access the news media, which would serve to bring the hysteria to the forefront of American mainstream......

ooc

countrygun
10-13-2012, 18:23
COST... convenient dodge/ruse, perhaps? I do recall one witness at the hearing saying that he had requested I think he said a dozen Marines and was told he was "asking for the sun, moon, and stars.."

I had just heard that before I posted. That is an excuse I won't buy from the "credit-card" administration. That's like Madonna saying "No, that would compromise my virtue"

Willard
10-13-2012, 18:51
It boils down to this: either the administration is evil, or just incompetent. Either way, they have got to go!

countrygun
10-13-2012, 18:54
It boils down to this: either the administration is evil, or just incompetent. Either way, they have got to go!

Agreed. ^^^^^

stevelyn
10-14-2012, 01:16
I have no problem concluding that the waffen BATFEces scum and Holder engineered this scheme to contrive evidence to be used as a pretext for a major gun control push.

That was the conclusion reach by Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea, both of whom were responsible for breaking the story and keeping in the news. Given the character of the people involved in the feral govt, I have no reason to disagree with them.

alwaysshootin
10-14-2012, 01:51
I agree with Cavalry Doc,

what was the "desired result"?)

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1#.UHps-8XA_Sg

and from CBS News

How did Fast and Furious start?
A number of Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) gun dealers in the Phoenix area routinely contacted ATF when they noticed suspicious customers attempting purchases; for example, someone ordering large numbers of AK-47 variant rifles and other so-called "weapons of choice" used by the Mexican drug cartels, and paying with large sums of cash brought in a paper bag. But starting in fall 2009, instead of stopping the transactions or questioning the customers, ATF often encouraged select gun dealers to go ahead and complete suspicious sales. ATF further asked the gun dealers to continue to cooperate by selling to the suspicious customers repeatedly, and providing ATF with names and weapons' serial numbers. Several gun dealers expressed concerns to ATF: they worried if they cooperated in selling guns to suspected criminals, they would later be unfairly blamed or even prosecuted, and that some of the weapons might be used one day to murder federal agents.

G19G20
10-14-2012, 03:24
I just wonder if some of the biggest news stories were in fact faked to keep more damaging stories off the front page.

Did the Clinton/Lewinski affair even happen?

Was Osama Bin Laden killed long ago and his body frozen so it could be used later as a news story designed to keep something more damaging hidden from public knowledge?

Was Fast and Furious actually a cover up for our government's
attempt to destabilize or damage the Mexican government by deliberately supplying guns to drug cartels?

Did Obama "arrange" for an attack on the Benghazi embassy to order to divert a news story about his illegal campaign contributions?

The campaign donations story surfaced, the Benghazi attack happened, and illegal campaign donations story just vanished.

What will we never know about because of diversionary news stories?

..

:faint::faint::faint::faint:

I am shocked. Utterly shocked at this post. I never would have expected JB to post anything like this. I am impress.


Is isn't unreasonable to suggest that in BOTH these events, the resulting deaths may not have been the unintended consequences.......but, rather these deaths were the OBJECTIVE?

Failures like this happen for a reason.

"The primary purpose of government is to pretend to fail." - reinhardt

JBnTX
10-14-2012, 05:03
:faint::faint::faint::faint:

I am shocked. Utterly shocked at this post. I never would have expected JB to post anything like this. I am impress.




I do what I can....:tease:

rick458
10-14-2012, 05:11
My personal opinion on "The Film" is that is was a Two Birds One Stone deal.
Objective 1 divert attention from the Foreign campain contributions
Objective 2 suppress "2016" and "Runaway Slave"

As to whether there was a deeper GOAL to Cause the attack I don't know, I do know that rattleing on about the film caused copycat uprisisngs across the region, and further undermined our standing.

DOC44
10-14-2012, 05:36
My personal opinion on "The Film" is that is was a Two Birds One Stone deal.
Objective 1 divert attention from the Foreign campain contributions
Objective 2 suppress "2016" and "Runaway Slave"

As to whether there was a deeper GOAL to Cause the attack I don't know, I do know that rattleing on about the film caused copycat uprisisngs across the region, and further undermined our standing.

Maybe the effects on the foreign campaign contributions is what go obama steppin and fetchin and lying and spending our money to put ads on tv in Musiland discaliming any association with the movie or America/him being the cause of the attack.

Anybody seen slick willie lately.... when it hits the fan he can usually be found hiding under someones bed some where.

Doc44

series1811
10-14-2012, 05:49
I thought the idea behind F&F was to create more anti gun hysteria that would then allow Big Ears to follow up with his and Holders original intent of passing more laws to punish legal gun owners

I think it really was that simple. It was a political operation, no doubt. ATF agents have it pounded into their heads, from the academy on, YOU DON'T WALK GUNS THAT YOU CAN'T RECOVER BEFORE THEY ARE USED TO HURT SOMEONE".

No field agent thought this really stupid operation up. It was political and political operations always come from the top, by their very nature. Anyone who says different, never worked for DOJ.

What their goal was is easy to guess, but not easy to know. They don't seem smart enough to think up a really good operation (as this proves).

IvanVic
10-14-2012, 05:54
I just wonder if some of the biggest news stories were in fact faked to keep more damaging stories off the front page.

Did the Clinton/Lewinski affair even happen?

Was Osama Bin Laden killed long ago and his body frozen so it could be used later as a news story designed to keep something more damaging hidden from public knowledge?

Was Fast and Furious actually a cover up for our government's
attempt to destabilize or damage the Mexican government by deliberately supplying guns to drug cartels?

Did Obama "arrange" for an attack on the Benghazi embassy to order to divert a news story about his illegal campaign contributions?

The campaign donations story surfaced, the Benghazi attack happened, and illegal campaign donations story just vanished.

What will we never know about because of diversionary news stories?

..

There are two types of conspiracy theorists - the true believers (e.g., the truthers, the moon landers - basically those who think that damn near everything that happens is a conspiracy), and your partisan theorists (e.g., someone like JBnTX who thinks that everything the government does under his opposition's party is a conspiracy, and when his party is in office, the government magically returns to a straight laced, by the book operation). Both of them are equally funny.

Bren
10-14-2012, 06:02
Is isn't unreasonable to suggest that in BOTH these events, the resulting deaths may not have been the unintended consequences.......but, rather these deaths were the OBJECTIVE?



About Fast & Furious: we've been saying that for a long time now. The point of Fast & Furious was to instroduce guns from American gun shops into the anarchy in Mexico, so that Mexican crime could be used to support American gun control. "Crime" clearly means murders - even better if some Americans get murdered. At the start of this administration, they claimed that was the case, but when they let the press take pictures of rooms full of guns, most of the serious stuff was obviously weapons you can't buy on the civilian market or weapons that are much easier and cheaper to get south of Mexico and from other parts of the world. Many people pointed that out. The only way to really sell it was to be able to tie them by serial number to American shops.

Libya? I don't know - maybe. I'm not a conspiracy believer. I see no advantage to a conspiracy by our gov for the embassy attacks.

Fast & Furious was (a) clearly not designed to do what they claim, since a child could figure out it lacked the necessary elements to track gun traffickers and (b) coincidentally does (but for some whistleblowers/leaks) support a stated agenda of the administration under which it happened and (c) the use of "executive privilege" and resistance to the investigation indicates that knowledge/approval went all the way up the chain. I can't find a reason NOT to believe in that conspiracy.