Entitlement ......? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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dango
10-14-2012, 04:39
I've sat back and read all the BS about (entitlement). Who are the most entitled ? Welfare , SSI , no. The best medical care ,
the best foods , transportation , etc..

You want the answer , (QUIT PAYING TAXES) and see ! Turn your back on the Government and see who is the MOST dependant.........!

PS: They have already turned their back on you ...........!

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 05:55
The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.

Eurodriver
10-14-2012, 06:04
The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.

That is no joke.

Where can you work for four years, and then be coddled for 36 months while going to college?

The old GI Bill was good. It paid a set amount.

The new GI Bill is welfare for our veterans. An E5 housing allowance for everyone?

frizz
10-14-2012, 06:23
That is no joke.

Where can you work for four years, and then be coddled for 36 months while going to college?

The old GI Bill was good. It paid a set amount.

The new GI Bill is welfare for our veterans. An E5 housing allowance for everyone?

Why do you hate people in the military?

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 06:36
Why do you hate people in the military?
Why do you think an entitlement program has to be evil?

dango
10-14-2012, 06:43
Why do none of you see the real problem ?

The millitary , you ask these people to put their life on the line
and what in return ? Is it your sons or daughters ? We OWE
these people........!

We don't owe the Government , the very same people who can not decide what color to paint the BLUE ROOM !

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 06:47
This is a prime example of the hypocrisy that is running rampant among Conservatives. They believe the pablum spoon fed to them without thinking for themselves and then spout it back while denying the truth.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 06:48
Why do none of you see the real problem ?

The millitary , you ask these people to put their life on the line
and what in return ? Is it your sons or daughters ? We OWE
these people........!

We don't owe the Government , the very same people who can not decide what color to paint the BLUE ROOM !

So, define an entitlement program.

dango
10-14-2012, 06:48
This is a prime example of the hypocrisy that is running rampant among Conservatives. They believe the pablum spoon fed to them without thinking for themselves and then spout it back while denying the truth.

Truth...........?

smokin762
10-14-2012, 06:49
Could this be part of the problem? I think so. :upeyes:


Original Obamaphone Lady: Obama Voter Says Vote for Obama because he gives a free Phone - YouTube

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 06:49
Truth...........?

The truth is, the GI Bill is an entitlement program.

Gallium
10-14-2012, 07:01
Why do none of you see the real problem ?

The millitary , you ask these people to put their life on the line
and what in return ? Is it your sons or daughters ? We OWE
these people........!

We don't owe the Government , the very same people who can not decide what color to paint the BLUE ROOM !


The cold hard truth is, we really need a draft, and level the ****ing playing field. Everyone serves for some initial fixed duration of time. The mentally ill, the invalid, crooks - everyone above a certain age serves in a capacity where they make a meaningful contribution.

Then, we remove all of the carrot incentives to service, and redistribute those funds based on other needs in society.

It would never work, because there is too much entrenchment, and more important, we have made contracts with many service member who deserve to have their contracts honored.

RonS
10-14-2012, 07:06
Giving someone a phone because they are poor is an entitlement, it happens because "Well, duh, everyone deserves a phone." If the phone recipent had to do 8320 hours of work to get the phone, it would not be an entitlement, it would be compensation.

The GI bill is an inducement offered by the government to get people to enlist in the military, no different than the pay, leave time, access to the PX/BX or military retirement. Calling it an entitlement is incorrect. You may consider it excessive compensation, like paying a CEO or University President xx million dollars a year, but it is the same concept, the government offered it as part of a contract for services from the service member and the service member has a legal and moral claim to the agreed upon compensation.

The basis of entitlement is the idea of "I am, therefore I deserve."

RonS
10-14-2012, 07:11
I would agree with the idea of a draft if it were not for the fact that the US military would be unable to deal with the results since they would not be allowed to use the techniques needed to transform the raw material provided them into Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen. You would have a namby pamby, incompetent military or a military with two classes of units, conscript labor battalions and fighting formations. Either would be national suicide on the battlefield.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 07:14
Giving someone a phone because they are poor is an entitlement, it happens because "Well, duh, everyone deserves a phone." If the phone recipent had to do 8320 hours of work to get the phone, it would not be an entitlement, it would be compensation.

The GI bill is an inducement offered by the government to get people to enlist in the military, no different than the pay, leave time, access to the PX/BX or military retirement. Calling it an entitlement is incorrect. You may consider it excessive compensation, like paying a CEO or University President xx million dollars a year, but it is the same concept, the government offered it as part of a contract for services from the service member and the service member has a legal and moral claim to the agreed upon compensation.

The basis of entitlement is the idea of "I am, therefore I deserve."
Well, you are wrong.

Here is the definition of entitlement program from http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e081.htmENTITLEMENT PROGRAM

A federal program that guarantees a certain level of benefits to persons or other entities who meet requirements set by law, such as Social Security, farm price supports or unemployment benefits. It thus leaves no discretion with Congress on how much money to appropriate, and some entitlements carry permanent appropriations.

Feel free to search for definitions.

You see, the real problem is that you have been brainwashed to hear "entitlement program" and say that they are bad.

Are all entitlement programs bad? Of course not. Do they all have some problems? Of course.

Open your mind and think for yourself, don't listen to what politicians and political pundits tell you to think.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 07:17
So, let's hear from all active duty and veterans here on GT. How many of you went into the military for the GI Bill?

dango
10-14-2012, 07:19
I yes ME was doing fine without playing GI JOE . I was drafted.
They stole two years of my life and gave it back , College !
I am a success story and carried MY own weight the rest of my life , taxes , etc. .

Had they not taken these years , I would have gotten to THAT plane sooner so speak for yourself.......:tongueout:

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 07:29
I yes ME was doing fine without playing GI JOE . I was drafted.
They stole two years of my life and gave it back , College !
I am a success story and carried MY own weight the rest of my life , taxes , etc. .

Had they not taken these years , I would have gotten to THAT plane sooner so speak for yourself.......:tongueout:
So you TOOK an entitlement. Does that make you bad? It doesn't sound like it.

tous
10-14-2012, 07:37
The truth is, the GI Bill is an entitlement program.

The truth is, the GI Bill is deferred compensation.

The deal is, you serve in the military for low pay and benefits for some number of years and defer a reasonable wage, we will pay the difference between what is reasonable and what you get while serving in the future.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 07:40
The truth is, the GI Bill is deferred compensation.

The deal is, you serve in the military for low pay and benefits for some number of years and defer a reasonable wage, we will pay the difference between what is reasonable and what you get while serving in the future.
The fact is, it is an entitlement program.

tous
10-14-2012, 07:44
The fact is, it is an entitlement program.

Was the NROTC program I participated in during college an entitlement as well?

dango
10-14-2012, 07:46
I would like to take a moment to thank each and everyone of you that helped in my education , your nickles were not waisted
for I have been that success story !

AND TO: Drill Sargent Specialist Petous , Got cha ,didn't I:supergrin:

ken grant
10-14-2012, 07:47
Worked from age 16 to 65, paid a large amount of money into S.S. and had no choice about it.

Paid Income Taxes on the money I never saw in my check.
Whom ever I worked for paid an equal amont into my S.S. which was considered part of my salarly.
Most likely I would have been paid more if employer had not had to pay my S.S.

The last 25 yrs. of my working life, I paid the max in S.S. and my employer paid the same.

Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.

dango
10-14-2012, 07:50
Worked from age 16 to 65, paid a large amount of money into S.S. and had no choice about it.

Paid Income Taxes on the money I never saw in my check.
Whom ever I worked for paid an equal amont into my S.S. which was considered part of my salarly.
Most likely I would have been paid more if employer had not had to pay my S.S.

The last 25 yrs. of my working life, I paid the max in S.S. and my employer paid the same.

Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.

Well , you obviously paid a few more nickles than most so thank you twice ................! :supergrin:
Tous , what's verticle man ........?

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 07:53
Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.
That is the hypocrisy that is running rampant among the conservatives. I'm glad someone else here sees it for what it is.

RonS
10-14-2012, 07:53
OK I spent some time reading up on the definition of entitlements re the federal budget and some of my beliefs were incorrect in light of that definition. I had heard how little of the budget congress can control but not really studied it.

I don't see any sane way to change it though. So many entitlements are things where the government pledged payment for services rendered over many years. To give congress the ability to cut them after the fact would be an invitation to abuse of the worst sort.

Then I think that the government should be much more limited in what they can do anyway. I wish they had left out that whole "general welfare" thing.

paynter2
10-14-2012, 07:55
The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.

I see what you did there...:wavey:

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 07:59
OK I spent some time reading up on the definition of entitlements re the federal budget and some of my beliefs were incorrect in light of that definition. I had heard how little of the budget congress can control but not really studied it.

I don't see any sane way to change it though. So many entitlements are things where the government pledged payment for services rendered over many years. To give congress the ability to cut them after the fact would be an invitation to abuse of the worst sort.

Then I think that the government should be much more limited in what they can do anyway. I wish they had left out that whole "general welfare" thing.

Yep, that is the whole conundrum. "Cut entitlements" makes for a great sound bite and rally cry but it really isn't that simple.

Eurodriver
10-14-2012, 08:02
Why do you hate people in the military?

You made a pretty big leap from assuming that having an unsustainable Post 9/11 GI Bill (Which I'm currently using) coincides with hating people in the military.

Do you think its right that I've been out of the military for almost 18 months and I have lived entirely off of my GI Bill payments? (Bear in mind that I drive a Mercedes, own a Jetski, and have bought a scooter and 2 motorcycles)

Most people do not know the new GI bill, so they say "Well, you're obviously cheating the system/not going to school/not taking a full load"

No, thats not true. I have taken between 13-15 credit hours every semester including the entire summer. The new GI Bill pays your tuition separately from your housing allowance.

Its absolutely ridiculous. Am I complaining for ME? No. But as a fiscal conservative its absolutely ridiculous. Why is it ok to give someone $100,000+ in education benefits for 4 years of military service but not okay to give an injured person healthcare/disability money/foodstamps, etc? (Not implying you've said that, just making a statement on how there is a general hypocrisy among conservatives that military spending is ok - social spending is not. NONE of it is ok)

TENWHEELER
10-14-2012, 08:04
Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.

No sir, you are not a Freeloader or getting an Entitlement. Social Security is not an Entitlement Program any more than a Lottery.
Welfare, on the other hand, is definitely an Entitlement program by my definition. I have tried to sum up what I feel below.
An Entitlement program is one where a person pays very little or nothing at all for benefits they receive later. GI Bill would only fit this if you place a minimum value on a soldier placing their life on the line on a battlefield. I place a great value on a soldier's sacrifice so I don't have a problem with them receiving an education after they have served. I do, however, have an issue with some lazy crack head on Welfare receiving a portion of my hard earned paycheck every month.
I live in a state with State Income Tax and I my wife and I pay a hefty amount each year. This happens so one of the lowlife, able bodied bums in my town can sit back, be a part of the 23% unemployment rate here and cruise around in a brand new SUV every year.

That, my friends, is an Entitlement Program.





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hockeyrcks9901
10-14-2012, 08:07
Worked from age 16 to 65, paid a large amount of money into S.S. and had no choice about it.

Paid Income Taxes on the money I never saw in my check.
Whom ever I worked for paid an equal amont into my S.S. which was considered part of my salarly.
Most likely I would have been paid more if employer had not had to pay my S.S.

The last 25 yrs. of my working life, I paid the max in S.S. and my employer paid the same.

Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.

Your money is GONE!!! It was spent a long ass time ago. You are now receiving my money. It's as simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I understand promises were made, but it's time for us to man up as a society and tell anyone my age (25) and younger that we will not support you when you retire. You need to plan for your own retirement and start saving now. If you can't afford retirement when you get there, then you need to call your children and have them make a bed for you in the living room.

I would gladly pay the payroll taxes for the rest of my working life and never receive any of the benefits if it means that the entire SS system was shut down.

The problem is that no one is willing to be the one that gets hurt to save our country. It's impossible for us to continue doing what we're doing, someone is going to have to take the hurt and my generation is the only one young enough to recover.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 08:09
No sir, you are not a Social Security is not an Entitlement Program any more than a Lottery.
Social Security IS an entitlement program by definition.

dango
10-14-2012, 08:13
Your money is GONE!!! It was spent a long ass time ago. You are now receiving my money. It's as simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I understand promises were made, but it's time for us to man up as a society and tell anyone my age (25) and younger that we will not support you when you retire. You need to plan for your own retirement and start saving now. If you can't afford retirement when you get there, then you need to call your children and have them make a bed for you in the living room.

I would gladly pay the payroll taxes for the rest of my working life and never receive any of the benefits if it means that the entire SS system was shut down

The problem is that no one is willing to be the one that gets hurt to save our country. It's impossible for us to continue doing what we're doing, someone is going to have to take the hurt and my generation is the only one young enough to recover.

Would you be the first in line please.......!

kirgi08
10-14-2012, 08:16
The truth is, the GI Bill is deferred compensation.

The deal is, you serve in the military for low pay and benefits for some number of years and defer a reasonable wage, we will pay the difference between what is reasonable and what you get while serving in the future.

Thank you Doug. :cool:


Was the NROTC program I participated in during college an entitlement as well?


Youse was a college swabbie,I was a HS swabbie that growed up ta an Airborne Ranger.'08.


BTW folks,I paid for my own college.

FLIPPER 348
10-14-2012, 08:21
The truth is, the GI Bill is deferred compensation.

The deal is, you serve in the military for low pay and benefits for some number of years..........


low pay and benifits??

...quite the opposite

hockeyrcks9901
10-14-2012, 08:22
Would you be the first in line please.......!

I already contribute 20% of my income to a 401k and a Roth IRA. My next goal is to max out my Roth IRA contributions but I just bought a new car, still have student loans, paying for my wedding (Oct 26th, excited), and planning to buy a house in January.

I plan to be able to retire at 57 being able to withdraw 100% of my working income until I'm 82 without counting any SS income and without counting anything my wife is putting aside, I believe she's doing 10%.



I know for a fact that SS will not be there when I retire, at least not in the capacity. And I am planning for it. To do otherwise would be foolish.

HexHead
10-14-2012, 08:38
Worked from age 16 to 65, paid a large amount of money into S.S. and had no choice about it.

Paid Income Taxes on the money I never saw in my check.
Whom ever I worked for paid an equal amont into my S.S. which was considered part of my salarly.
Most likely I would have been paid more if employer had not had to pay my S.S.

The last 25 yrs. of my working life, I paid the max in S.S. and my employer paid the same.

Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.

You're likely to get back far more than was paid in. When SS was designed, the average life expectancy was about 67 years old.

dango
10-14-2012, 08:41
I already contribute 20% of my income to a 401k and a Roth IRA. My next goal is to max out my Roth IRA contributions but I just bought a new car, still have student loans, paying for my wedding (Oct 26th, excited), and planning to buy a house in January.

I plan to be able to retire at 57 being able to withdraw 100% of my working income until I'm 82 without counting any SS income and without counting anything my wife is putting aside, I believe she's doing 10%.



I know for a fact that SS will not be there when I retire, at least not in the capacity. And I am planning for it. To do otherwise would be foolish.
That would appear to be the the case and I wish I hadn't learned that so late in life. But , as always , I have have a card up my sleeve.........! Would I depend on anything but me ? No.........!
Advice: Don't solely depend on that 401 K.........!

Z71bill
10-14-2012, 08:42
Fact is - 99% of the folks GETTING a check based on one or more of these entitlements not only think they deserve the cash - they absolutely believe in their heart that they have it coming to them - that they not only deserve it - but they earned it.



Some of the things every one of these entitlements have in common --

1. They can be changed at any time - all congress needs to do is pass a law -

2. They all TAKE money from one group and GIVE IT to another.

3. If the government can't borrow money from someone every week - the payments will not be made.

-------

Would America be a better place if MORE people could stand on their own and not be dependent on entitlement payments?

Anyone thing we would be better off if more people got a government check?

RonS
10-14-2012, 08:44
How do you get people to scale back their expectations of what government does for them without provoking a Greece/Spain push back that makes rational discussion and compromise impossible? Germany and Sweden seem to be moving in that direction, do we have the will or time as a nation?

Too many of these issues are just vote buying or vote extortion. "Vote for me, we have free phones." "If you vote for Red R. Republican he will take away your social security and euthanize your cat." "I promise to protect Medicare not matter what." "JoB hates tank builders and will leave our country unprotected and take away your job."

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 08:45
Worked from age 16 to 65, paid a large amount of money into S.S. and had no choice about it.

Paid Income Taxes on the money I never saw in my check.
Whom ever I worked for paid an equal amont into my S.S. which was considered part of my salarly.
Most likely I would have been paid more if employer had not had to pay my S.S.

The last 25 yrs. of my working life, I paid the max in S.S. and my employer paid the same.

Now I get a S.S. check each month and some call me getting an ENTITLEMENT and a FREELOADER on the system.

Its a welfare check. Welfare for the elderly. Social Security and Medicare are bankrupting the nation.

You're pissed off about being called a freeloader? I'm pissed off about working to pay your welfare. I'm pissed about my kids and grandkids being indebted to pay your welfare.

If you didn't save enough for your retirement, too bad. I don't know you. I owe you nothing.

dango
10-14-2012, 08:49
Its a welfare check. Welfare for the elderly. Social Security and Medicare are bankrupting the nation.

You're pissed off about being called a freeloader? I'm pissed off about working to pay your welfare. I'm pissed about my kids and grandkids being indebted to pay your welfare.

If you didn't save enough for your retirement, too bad.

If so why did I see every check money gone towards SSI.
They should of left the ****** alone and let ME make that choice.

HexHead
10-14-2012, 08:51
Social Security IS an entitlement program by definition.

It's also a Ponzi scheme by definition. The earlier participants are being paid with the later employees contributions.

muscogee
10-14-2012, 08:55
You're likely to get back far more than was paid in. When SS was designed, the average life expectancy was about 67 years old.

Many people die before reaching retirement. They got nothing back.

dango
10-14-2012, 09:00
It's also a Ponzi scheme by definition. The earlier participants are being paid with the later employees contributions.

Just keep paying and my problem is less , then the ball is in your court and watch what you ask cause one medical issue can wipe you out..........!

Z71bill
10-14-2012, 09:01
If so why did I see every check money gone towards SSI.
They should of left the ****** alone and let ME make that choice.

Congress passed a law requiring you to make those payments. :upeyes:

They also decide if and how much money you will be entitled to.

I am 99.9% sure that by the time I am old enough they will have changed the law - and anyone with income above $XX will get zero.

Since I have planned, saved/invested - I will get nothing -

Idiots losers with no plan and no savings will still get a check.

Not only is social security an entitlement program - after these changes - it will encourage bad behavior (no savings) and punish good behavior.

dango
10-14-2012, 09:06
Congress passed a law requiring you to make those payments. :upeyes:

They also decide if and how much money you will be entitled to.

I am 99.9% sure that by the time I am old enough they will have changed the law - and anyone with income above $XX will get zero.

Since I have planned, saved/invested - I will get nothing -

Idiots losers with no plan and no savings will still get a check.

Not only is social security an entitlement program - after these changes - it will encourage bad behavior (no savings) and punish good behavior.

You people are oblivious to the real problem that is inevitable
in your life time , you can't eat money ! BACK TO THE LAND !

G29Reload
10-14-2012, 09:11
Its not an entitlement if its earned or contributed to.

Handouts are another story.

If you paid into SS, you get, same for medicare.
If you served in the .mil, you get veterans benefits. Period.

Obama phones, food stamps, welfare, EITC, are another story. Cut off completely except for the most dire of circumstances.

shotgunred
10-14-2012, 09:19
You're likely to get back far more than was paid in. When SS was designed, the average life expectancy was about 67 years old.

Please google compound interest. There is no way the government isn't making out better on than you on this deal.

dango
10-14-2012, 09:23
Please google compound interest. There is no way the government isn't making out better on than you on this deal.

Alass , hope......................!

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 09:26
Its not an entitlement if its earned or contributed to.

Handouts are another story.

If you paid into SS, you get, same for medicare.
If you served in the .mil, you get veterans benefits. Period.

Obama phones, food stamps, welfare, EITC, are another story. Cut off completely except for the most dire of circumstances.
You need to look up the definition of an entitlement because you are wrong.

Z71bill
10-14-2012, 09:54
Its not an entitlement if its earned or contributed to.

Handouts are another story.

If you paid into SS, you get, same for medicare.
If you served in the .mil, you get veterans benefits. Period.

Obama phones, food stamps, welfare, EITC, are another story. Cut off completely except for the most dire of circumstances.

You get a check because the law says you are ENTITLED to be paid $XX if you meet specific criteria.

So you meet the criteria -

Work for XX periods, serve in the military, have 3 kids and no job, are unemployed because the company downsized you -

You get a check -

They are all entitlement payments - some are 100% welfare - some are part welfare part earned.

-----------

Don't take my word for it - go see what the

"OFFICIAL WEB SITE OF THE U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION"

says about social security payments.


http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-entitle-ussi.htm

It is under the heading --

SOCIAL SECURITY ENTITLEMENT REQUIREMENTS

DanaT
10-14-2012, 10:00
I am generally against entitlements.

I think the GI Bill is essentially delayed compensation. We can talk about if military compensation is too high/too low etc, but they did the soldiers worked to get that. In the private business world this would be like getting stock options. You get something later that you believe will be of value in instead of more compensation now.

That said, the entitlement that I am for, is education. I believe that each student should be trained to be able to do a job. Our current education system is broken. Students should not be coming out of high school unemployable. Western European countries manage to educated all their children and without huge debt. Starting life off in the whole is wrong.

I would even be willing to go as far as others and say that each person in the USA should have to spend 1 year in the military/civil service in exchange for getting free university/trade school.

Really, an educated population is good for us as a society. It is the same a good economy is better than higher tax rate to increase tax revenues. If the water level rises, all boats rise up.

Education (not the broken system in the USA we currently have) is an investment in the future of the country that will ensure that the tide gets higher.

Paul53
10-14-2012, 10:06
The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.

Entitlement? It's a job benefit! In exchange for risking their lives to protect the rest of us, my daughter and son-in-law were given a benefits package. I think they deserve more considering the chance of the ultimate sacrifice.

Get days off, sick pay, health insurance through your employer, is that an entitlement or benefit. Do you risk death on your job?

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 10:09
Entitlement? It's a job benefit! In exchange for risking their lives to protect the rest of us, my daughter and son-in-law were given a benefits package. I think they deserve more considering the chance of the ultimate sacrifice.

Get days off, sick pay, health insurance through your employer, is that an entitlement or benefit. Do you risk death on your job?

Nope, it really is an entitlement. Look up the definition of entitlement and look at the history of how it all started. The plain and simple fact is that it is an entitlement.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 10:10
[QUOTE=Paul53;19517225
Get days off, sick pay, health insurance through your employer, is that an entitlement or benefit. Do you risk death on your job?[/QUOTE]

Police officers and fire fighters risk death on their jobs. Do they get something like the GI Bill?

Eurodriver
10-14-2012, 10:12
Entitlement? It's a job benefit! In exchange for risking their lives to protect the rest of us, my daughter and son-in-law were given a benefits package. I think they deserve more considering the chance of the ultimate sacrifice.

Get days off, sick pay, health insurance through your employer, is that an entitlement or benefit. Do you risk death on your job?

Dude, do you know how expensive the GI Bill is?

bmoore
10-14-2012, 10:17
Police officers and fire fighters risk death on their jobs. Do they get something like the GI Bill?

We used to get a retirement plan with good on the job benefits. Now the right wing nuts are going after that too. Its funny I know a guy who stocked vending machines and did supply orders on Marine bases for 20 years. He retired at 38. People make pee pee in their diapers for 30 year Police officers and Fireman/Paramedics retiring at 55, a bunch of those guys worked in absolute hell holes in So Cal. People are funny.

Edit- Oh don't forget that people don't have any problem with all the millions 23 year old tweekers on welfare that are drinking a cold one at 11am on Tuesday. Its the public employees that are the root of all evil, they are the ones on the "gravy train".

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 10:49
We used to get a retirement plan with good on the job benefits. Now the right wing nuts are going after that too. Its funny I know a guy who stocked vending machines and did supply orders on Marine bases for 20 years. He retired at 38. People make pee pee in their diapers for 30 year Police officers and Fireman/Paramedics retiring at 55, a bunch of those guys worked in absolute hell holes in So Cal. People are funny.

Edit- Oh don't forget that people don't have any problem with all the millions 23 year old tweekers on welfare that are drinking a cold one at 11am on Tuesday. Its the public employees that are the root of all evil, they are the ones on the "gravy train".

That's because we have to pay for it.

bmoore
10-14-2012, 11:00
That's because we have to pay for it.

Yeah what a drag. You can pick up the phone and in 4-6 minutes people will be at your door ready to help you, no matter the problem. Its the most instant return of your money you will ever get in government.

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 11:02
Yeah what a drag.

Right. Because while you retire at 55, the rest of us have to work until we're 70 to pay for it.

You're ambivalence toward the people who put food in your mouth is disturbing. Here's hoping it doesn't come back to bite you at some point. :wavey:

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 11:03
Yeah what a drag. You can pick up the phone and in 4-6 minutes people will be at your door ready to help you, no matter the problem. Its the most instant return of your money you will ever get in government.

And for that, they are paid.

podwich
10-14-2012, 11:03
Many people die before reaching retirement. They got nothing back.

If they were investing in a private retirement plan, they would be able to leave that money to their heirs/some person or group of their choice (well, subtracting death taxes, that is).

Averageman
10-14-2012, 11:05
The truth is, the GI Bill is deferred compensation.

The deal is, you serve in the military for low pay and benefits for some number of years and defer a reasonable wage, we will pay the difference between what is reasonable and what you get while serving in the future.

I agree with this, I got paid less than $600.00 a month when I joined.
I did get a H.S. Diploma and an AA and a BS while in without using a nickle of the GI Bill because I was not eligable for it.
I figure you got your return on your Money out of my 20+ years. I went to school nights, weekends and paid out of pocket for my books and supplies.
I ended up with a degree in Business and used a lot of what I learned to make my service to my Country a little better.

podwich
10-14-2012, 11:06
Please google compound interest. There is no way the government isn't making out better on than you on this deal.

Maybe if the money was invested. It's not. I agree with you that compounded interest is the way to go-- private retirement plans FTW. :)

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 11:06
If so why did I see every check money gone towards SSI.
They should of left the ****** alone and let ME make that choice.

You probably also see money being taken out for "Income Tax". Planning to file for that too?

hockeyrcks9901
10-14-2012, 11:08
That would appear to be the the case and I wish I hadn't learned that so late in life. But , as always , I have have a card up my sleeve.........! Would I depend on anything but me ? No.........!
Advice: Don't solely depend on that 401 K.........!

I don't solely depend on the 401k. I also hope to have housing investments (rental properties) a fully funded Roth IRA in totally different investments than my 401k, and the contributions that my wife makes to her 401k again, totally different investments.

It's all about diversity to survive the down times...and quite a bit of luck.

bmoore
10-14-2012, 11:10
And for that, they are paid.

Lol, fair enough. I know we will not agree on retirement plans for people so there is no need to go any further.:wavey:

I put food in my own mouth. I seeked out a job with pay and benefits that I wanted. I went to school for years to do what I do, I worked for 7 bucks an hour as an EMT and was a volunteer fireman for years. Nobody came over one day when I was getting out of high school and gave me my job.

hockeyrcks9901
10-14-2012, 11:11
Yeah what a drag. You can pick up the phone and in 4-6 minutes people will be at your door ready to help you, no matter the problem. Its the most instant return of your money you will ever get in government.

As someone else has already stated...these people are compensated for their time. If they weren't being paid enough, then people wouldn't accept the job. It's the laws of economics at work.

I don't agree with changing the agreed to terms when these people are already 25 years into their career. But for the young guys, it has to change or we're all going to be bankrupt.

bmoore
10-14-2012, 11:15
As someone else has already stated...these people are compensated for their time. If they weren't being paid enough, then people wouldn't accept the job. It's the laws of economics at work.

I don't agree with changing the agreed to terms when these people are already 25 years into their career. But for the young guys, it has to change or we're all going to be bankrupt.

Our labor group is negotiating to tier our benefits as I type this. Not all unions are evil, we are trying to bridge the gap as well. We have taken numerous pay cuts, we are trying to do our part.

dango
10-14-2012, 11:17
As someone else has already stated...these people are compensated for their time. If they weren't being paid enough, then people wouldn't accept the job. It's the laws of economics at work.

I don't agree with changing the agreed to terms when these people are already 25 years into their career. But for the young guys, it has to change or we're all going to be bankrupt.

SHhhhhhhh ! We already are , they just ain't tellin.
Why do you think gold went from $400 ozs. to over $1600 ?

Again , SHhhhhh !

hockeyrcks9901
10-14-2012, 11:19
SHhhhhhhh ! We already are , they just ain't tellin.
Why do you think gold went from $400 ozs. to over $1600 ?

Again , SHhhhhh !

Well, I'm not bankrupt... :whistling:

dango
10-14-2012, 11:19
You probably also see money being taken out for "Income Tax". Planning to file for that too?

Yeah , Thanks again for footing the bill.........!

Averageman
10-14-2012, 11:23
Lol, fair enough. I know we will not agree on retirement plans for people so there is no need to go any further.:wavey:

I put food in my own mouth. I seeked out a job with pay and benefits that I wanted. I went to school for years to do what I do, I worked for 7 bucks an hour as an EMT and was a volunteer fireman for years. Nobody came over one day when I was getting out of high school and gave me my job.
Nobody came over one day when I was getting out of High School and gave me my job?
Hmmmmmmmm.

bmoore
10-14-2012, 11:30
Nobody came over one day when I was getting out of High School and gave me my job?
Hmmmmmmmm.

Thats when I started my career path. I got hired 5 years later, I did not dick around like most 18-22 year old folks do. I knew what I wanted to do.

dango
10-14-2012, 11:30
Well, I'm not bankrupt... :whistling:

Shhhhhhhhhh..............! Don't tell anybody....SHhhhhhh...!

Z71bill
10-14-2012, 11:31
If you were not paying attention at the last - "Raise the national debt limit fiasco" you will get a second chance to see reality first hand in January.

If the government can't borrow money - no one gets their ENTITLEMENT checks.

No social security, no medicare, no GI benefits, no food stamps, no unemployment payments.

At some point our debt will hit the point where even if they raise the debt limit no one will loan us money.

I say it is when the interest payments to service the debt = 30% of total tax revenue.

Current system that is at $750 billion in interest - we now pay about $250 billion - but interest rates are at historic lows.

At the historical average of 5% our interest payments next year on current debt would be $800+ billion.

We are already heading in the danger zone of insolvency -

The FED may be able to keep interest rates low for a few more years - but not forever -

I think we still have time - if someone in DC had a few ounces of courage - but they don't.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 11:37
Nobody came over one day when I was getting out of High School and gave me my job?
Hmmmmmmmm.

Sucks to be you guys. I never really did anything. Screwed around in HS. Never went to a university. Never got a job. Just kind of hung out and played video games and drank. Then one day out of the blue, a company offered me a job a and pretty decent money. Something about being an engineer for pacemakers. Dont really know what its about. They just started sending me checks and I didnt even have to show to work.

Bensmiata
10-14-2012, 11:38
I sense a lot of resentment from folks in this thread that will they had the same opportunities that service members do since they can look back on their lives and go "I really shouldn't have ****ed off and dicked around maybe then I would have been better off like the Joe who put in his time and hard work while risking his life".

Thanks American taxpayer, you have made me what I am today and I will continue to reap the benefits for the rest of my life.

dango
10-14-2012, 11:42
I sense a lot of resentment from folks in this thread that will they had the same opportunities that service members do since they can look back on their lives and go "I really shouldn't have ****ed off and dicked around maybe then I would have been better off like the Joe who put in his time and hard work while risking his life".

Thanks American taxpayer, you have made me what I am today and I will continue to reap the benefits for the rest of my life.

Bravo.......I did it , my parents did it , we all payed and payed
and I'm not crying the blues. Like gravity , it just was and is
so's cry on........!

Averageman
10-14-2012, 11:43
Thats when I started my career path. I got hired 5 years later, I did not dick around like most 18-22 year old folks do. I knew what I wanted to do.
By the time I was 22, I was a Tank Commander in Germany in 1984.
I didnt figure that I was "dicking around" either.
I knew I was waisting my time in HS, knew I wanted to be a career Soldier and since my Mother wouldn't sign for me to join at 17, I walked to the recruiters office with my S.S. Card and Birth Certificate on my 18th Birthday and was in my Basic Training reception Center the next day.
I dont ask for anyone to give me anything, I work and pay my taxes. The benefits I earned in the Military were compensation for a dirty crappy job that most people couldn't or wouldn't do.
Those benefits a whittled at a little at a time by the very folks who slept safe in their beds..
You know what thats all good, screw them long enough and hard enough and you wont have anyone to serve in the Military.

G29Reload
10-14-2012, 11:46
You need to look up the definition of an entitlement because you are wrong.

YOu know what I mean. I'm far from wrong.

I probably should have phrased it better. Some people think they're entitled to something they're not.

Vets are entitled. Retirees who paid in are entitled.

Welfare queens are not entitled, even though they think they are.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 11:49
I sense a lot of resentment from folks in this thread

I believe that you made a contract and it should be honored.

That said, many people make contracts and then get screwed when people/companies go bankrupt. Go look up the tons of bankruptcy cases filed everyday and look how creditors get the shaft even thought there was a valid contract in force.

What we are concerned about is we see the bankruptcy coming. We are doing what Greece has done. We are saying, lets change how we do business before we cant change without bankrupting the country.

Go back in history (and even today) and look what happens to country that get in this mess. Then google the term "hyperinflation". Find a list of countries that have experienced hyperinflation and tell us one that it has turned out good for.

What is the saying the LEO on here use?? You are either part of the solution or you are the problem?

DanaT
10-14-2012, 11:54
[B]BThe benefits I earned in the Military were compensation for a dirty crappy job that most people couldn't or wouldn't do.

Outside of a few very specialized jobs in military, its not a job that most "can't" do. I just got back from road trip with my Swiss friend. You realize ALL MEN until 34 (unless they are conscientious objectors or are medically not capable) are soldiers in Swiss army until 34? So it is quite clear being a solider is something most CAN do.

You statement about wont do, is accurate, but statement about cannot do the job is not accurate.

bmoore
10-14-2012, 11:58
The benefits I earned in the Military were compensation for a dirty crappy job that most people couldn't or wouldn't do.
Those benefits a whittled at a little at a time by the very folks who slept safe in their beds..
You know what thats all good, screw them long enough and hard enough and you wont have anyone to serve in the Military.

You are exactly correct. If you keep taking pay and benefits away the services will decline. People do not give a rats ass if it saves them 40 bucks a year, that's sad. You served and kept people safe, I appreciate it and have no problem paying taxes for your pay and benefits. I have saved peoples lives that would literally vote away my position if it saved them their 40 dollar annual benefit fee. People will now reply with "get off your high horse" and all the other BS, but facts are facts.

frizz
10-14-2012, 12:06
I suppose the pay for servicemembers is an entitlement program, too. Hey, it IS taking from one group and giving it to another...

kirgi08
10-14-2012, 12:07
We do render a service.'08 :upeyes:

muscogee
10-14-2012, 12:18
Those of you thinking you are going it make it to the end of your lives on your investments are in for a shock. Unless you die young or are in the 1% you might make it until you develop health problems. Then everything you have goes to health care and you die broke.

nursetim
10-14-2012, 12:21
Wow, the stupid is strong in this thread. Entitlement is expecting money or services not earned in any way shape or form. The terms of a contract are not entitlement per say. You are entitled to be compensated according to the terms of the contract.

Shelly/Maria/lachesha did not enter into a contract with the government. They did not agree to pump out kids like a pez dispenser in exchange for free medical care, food, shelter, transportation, etc. pumping out puppies is not a service you our country, sorry it isn't.

Men and women raise their right hand and swear to defend our nation AND sign a contract BTW. They are entitled to have the terms of the contract honored. If you think the terms are unfair, raise your hand and join up. Put your life on the line and then tell me you are being over compensated. Have someone shoot at you with real bullets and tell me you are being overcompensated. Have your buddy's face explode in a pink mist and his brain fly up your nose, then tell me you are being overcompensated. All gave some, some gave all.

What have the entitlement crowd done for America? Oh yeah, made it weaker, that's right, what a wonderful service. :upeyes:

Is SSI an entitlement program? To a degree, yes it is. To those that have paid into it for decades, no it is not. For them it is still a Ponzi scheme. But we made the commitment.
For the leaches that have paid naught into the kitty and then expect SSI disability, you bet it is. Even people in wheel chairs fail to meet my criteria for disability. I have seen too many people without legs be productive, so no.

I had an Adam Henry come into my office sucking around for SSI disability because he was depressed about being unemployed, despite working occasionally off the books. I came up with an awesome treatment plan for this jackwagon, and he blows it off, bucket of monkey jizz.

Please let me know how I can get on a review panel for SSI. I could save the nation a boat load of money.

Averageman
10-14-2012, 12:22
Outside of a few very specialized jobs in military, its not a job that most "can't" do. I just got back from road trip with my Swiss friend. You realize ALL MEN until 34 (unless they are conscientious objectors or are medically not capable) are soldiers in Swiss army until 34? So it is quite clear being a solider is something most CAN do.

You statement about wont do, is accurate, but statement about cannot do the job is not accurate.
You do realise how many People actually qualify to be in the Military as we currently recruit?
About one in twenty in the greater Los Angeles area when I was a recruiter actually qualified to be tested with the ASVAB.
From there you took those scores and went to Medical which eliminated another 10-15%. Then they were given a background check and the legal end of the game was played out and you would lose another 3-5% who would lie to get that far.
I would guess now that the pool of potential recruits is about 10% of the American Population.
Using the Swiss draft as an example just doesn't work here in the U.S. Even if you would take in everyone it would burden the system rather than make it better.
With 30% of us obese, that alone would break the current system beyond repair.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 12:25
People do not give a rats ass if it saves them 40 bucks a year, that's sad.

Wat you dont get is it is NOT $40 a year. It is an EXTRA $40 here, an EXTRA $100 there, on on on.

I will would make you this deal.

We go to a flat tax. everyone pays the same amount and then everyone has to send an extra $40 to their FD. I would go for that.

It is not any individual tax that is an issue...it is all of them combined. $40 in the taxes I pay is noise. I couldn't tell you +/- $40 in my tax bill.

I can blow $40 and not care. $40 to me is not going out to dinner one time a week. I would have to cut back to 2 or 3 times a week.

But honestly to some people $40 is a lot of money at the moment.

What people get upset about the SENSE of entitlement that public employees expect. You are showing why people resent it. You assume that they should just pay "$40 bucks a year". If people were so heavily taxed, they might not mind the $40 a year. But it the sense of "the public can pay more" that upsets us.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 12:26
Wow, the stupid is strong in this thread. Entitlement is expecting money or services not earned in any way shape or form. The terms of a contract are not entitlement per say. You are entitled to be compensated according to the terms of the contract.

Wow, this is a stupid response. Please learn what the definition of an entitlement is. Just because you think you know what an entitlement is, doesn't mean that you really know what an entitlement is.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 12:31
You do realise how many People actually qualify to be in the Military as we currently recruit?
About one in twenty in the greater Los Angeles area when I was a recruiter actually qualified to be tested with the ASVAB.
From there you took those scores and went to Medical which eliminated another 10-15%. Then they were given a background check and the legal end of the game was played out and you would lose another 3-5% who would lie to get that far.
I would guess now that the pool of potential recruits is about 10% of the American Population.
Using the Swiss draft as an example just doesn't work here in the U.S. Even if you would take in everyone it would burden the system rather than make it better.
With 30% of us obese, that alone would break the current system beyond repair.

You are arguing about being selective about who is taken because there are more people wanting to do a job than needed and trying to make the statement that the selectivity based upon too abundant supply of labor means that most CANNOT be soldiers.

History is not on your side. How many Russians in WW2 were not CAPABLE of being a soldier?

Look at the Taliban. These are essentially uneducated people that have the ability to be a soldier.

You are mixing desire and selectivity with ability.

dango
10-14-2012, 12:43
Taliban- The Russians tryed for many years and could not defeat them........!

Nam- We hit them with every thing we had and guess what ?

No win........Maybe our standards are a bit high........?

Averageman
10-14-2012, 12:46
You are arguing about being selective about who is taken because there are more people wanting to do a job than needed and trying to make the statement that the selectivity based upon too abundant supply of labor means that most CANNOT be soldiers.

History is not on your side. How many Russians in WW2 were not CAPABLE of being a soldier?

Look at the Taliban. These are essentially uneducated people that have the ability to be a soldier.

You are mixing desire and selectivity with ability.
We are a very soft society.
If you take the average Afghan teen of today or the Russian Teen of 1938 and compare them to the American teens of today, you are clearly mixing apples and oranges.
You can barely fill manual labor jobs today because Americans have babied their young to the point that they now have an uneducated out of shape lump in front of a Play Station.
They dont herd goats and sheep against a 30 degree slope at 20,000 feet. They dont threash 40 acre feilds of wheat by hand either.
If you mention the "D" word today Millions of Parents in America would stand up and howl and the Politicans would run away like Mercury from the issue.
Again with a population of 30% Obese people and most doing no physical labor, you could not field a population of Warriors for years.
This is why we win with technology and are selective with who we choose to serve.
History may not be on my side, but history is past and does not work here and now.

Averageman
10-14-2012, 12:51
Taliban- The Russians tryed for many years and could not defeat them........!

Nam- We hit them with every thing we had and guess what ?

No win........Maybe our standards are a bit high........?
Or maybe we are afraid to fight a total War?
No one allowed total war in Viet Nam, as no one will allow total war against the Taliban.
Instead we celebrate the "Arab Spring" and watch the Taliban take power with our help.
Instead of comparing the Soldiers in the field compare the Leadership in power.
Some folks want to win and some want to be re elected.

frizz
10-14-2012, 13:02
We do render a service.'08 :upeyes:

Wait. Soldiers, sailers, Marines, and airmen actually earn their pay and other compensation?????


Gaaaaa!!!! FACTS!!! THEY BURN MY EYES!!!!

Must... Clear... My... Head... !!!!!


NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! THEY TAKE MY TAX DOLLARS AND GIVE IT TO THEM!!!! ENTITLEMENT PROGRAM <click heels> ENTITLEMENT PROGRAM <click heels> ENTITLEMENT PROGRAM <click heels>.

THE RUBY SLIPPERS DIDN'T WORK!!!! NOOOOOO!!!! HELP ME GLENDA!!!

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 13:03
What is really funny is that all of the "conservatives" on this thread defending Social Security and Medicare probably despise socialism, deficit spending and believe we must quit accumulating debt.

Yet, when their teet is threatened they will defend THEIR socialism no matter the fact that spending cannot and will not be reigned in so long as Social Security and Medicare exist in their current form. The teet they defend is THE PROBLEM in the federal budget. Social Security recipients are part of the problem.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 13:08
What is really funny is that all of the "conservatives" on this thread defending Social Security and Medicare probably despise socialism, deficit spending and believe we must quit accumulating debt.

Yet, when their teet is threatened they will defend THEIR socialism no matter the fact that spending cannot and will not be reigned in so long as Social Security and Medicare exist in their current form. The teet they defend is THE PROBLEM in the federal budget. Social Security recipients are part of the problem.

Well, in general, people feel that it is the "other person" that is the problem. Cut everything except what puts money in THEIR pocket.

I dont care what govt program it is, that is how it runs.

There are so many special interests like this, there is no way to make the required cuts. We will go off the cliff and look like Greece. The end has already been written. It just how get there and when we arrive.

nursetim
10-14-2012, 13:08
Wow, this is a stupid response. Please learn what the definition of an entitlement is. Just because you think you know what an entitlement is, doesn't mean that you really know what an entitlement is.

I don't remember attacking you personally. You must be a liberal, generally they like to get personal quickly. I take it you never raised you hand and defended our country. I don't know this to be a fact of course, as I do not know you. But your rantings seem to indicate that.

If you mattered in my day to day being. I might be all butt hurt over your personal attack. You don't so I'm not.

nursetim
10-14-2012, 13:10
What is really funny is that all of the "conservatives" on this thread defending Social Security and Medicare probably despise socialism, deficit spending and believe we must quit accumulating debt.

Yet, when their teet is threatened they will defend THEIR socialism no matter the fact that spending cannot and will not be reigned in so long as Social Security and Medicare exist in their current form. The teet they defend is THE PROBLEM in the federal budget. Social Security recipients are part of the problem.

Quoted for truth, well said.

frizz
10-14-2012, 13:11
Or maybe we are afraid to fight a total War?
No one allowed total war in Viet Nam, as no one will allow total war against the Taliban.
Instead we celebrate the "Arab Spring" and watch the Taliban take power with our help.
Instead of comparing the Soldiers in the field compare the Leadership in power.
Some folks want to win and some want to be re elected.

In the military, there are those who work to get the mission done, and there are those who work on getting promoted. This goes for both commissioned and non-commissioned officers.

It is a sad, sad part of human nature, no?

G23Gen4.40
10-14-2012, 13:12
its not an entitlement if its earned or contributed to.

Handouts are another story.

If you paid into ss, you get, same for medicare.
If you served in the .mil, you get veterans benefits. Period.

Obama phones, food stamps, welfare, eitc, are another story. Cut off completely except for the most dire of circumstances.

+1000

frizz
10-14-2012, 13:14
What is really funny is that all of the "conservatives" on this thread defending Social Security and Medicare probably despise socialism, deficit spending and believe we must quit accumulating debt.

Yet, when their teet is threatened they will defend THEIR socialism no matter the fact that spending cannot and will not be reigned in so long as Social Security and Medicare exist in their current form. The teet they defend is THE PROBLEM in the federal budget. Social Security recipients are part of the problem.


I don't agree with you 100%, but the general issue of the public trough is a sticky wicket.

"Well, that just depends on who's ox is getting gored." - I donno who said it.

G-19
10-14-2012, 13:25
I agree that welfare for people who wont work is wrong.

However, SS and Military benifits are not welfare. I will say it, Those that receive SS and those who served in the military are entitled to what they get, they did what they were either required or asked to do and deserve the promised compensation. I don't care if you agree, and neither does the majority of the people in this country. Your crying will not change a thing. Just keep paying your taxes. :p

For all those that claim they will leave the country, where you going? Where you going to find that is better? Good luck.

I also feel that companies who put profit before country, by sending jobs overseas, should be taxed and pay high enough tariffs to pay the unemployment of those they put out of work. If they want tax breaks brings the jobs back home.

dango
10-14-2012, 13:29
Or maybe we are afraid to fight a total War?
No one allowed total war in Viet Nam, as no one will allow total war against the Taliban.
Instead we celebrate the "Arab Spring" and watch the Taliban take power with our help.
Instead of comparing the Soldiers in the field compare the Leadership in power.
Some folks want to win and some want to be re elected.

Profit was the game .....................!

DanaT
10-14-2012, 13:32
For all those that claim they will leave the country, where you going? Where you going to find that is better? Good luck.

I have a Swiss residency permit. You?

G-19
10-14-2012, 13:38
I have a Swiss residency permit. You?

Don't need it, I am not the one crying. If you think it is so bad here, leave.

Eurodriver
10-14-2012, 13:39
I have a Swiss residency permit. You?

Dana Dana Dana,

Why do you waste your time?

These guys are ridiculous.

"Firefighters put their lives on the line"

"Soldiers risk their lives!"


And I whole heartedly disagree with the statement made by someone that decreasing benefits will decrease the quality of the military. History disagrees with that as well. In fact, it wasn't until you started giving veterans benefits that you got malik from in the hood joining the army fo da college benefits!

tous
10-14-2012, 13:39
sticky wicket.

"Well, that just depends on who's ox is getting gored." - I donno who said it.

Though oft-quoted by various professional liars over the years, I believe the origin of the phrase of something like it is Biblical.

Now, how sad is my life that I know that without research. :crying:

:supergrin:

tous
10-14-2012, 13:40
I have a Swiss residency permit. You?

We're taking the entire state of Texas with us when we go.
Oklahoma and Louisiana are welcome to come along.

G-19
10-14-2012, 13:43
I have a Swiss residency permit. You?

http://www.taxrates.cc/html/switzerland-tax-rates.html

When you include Federal, Canton, and VAT I don't see the real advantage. Oh, don't forget the Church Tax.

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 13:44
I don't remember attacking you personally. You must be a liberal, generally they like to get personal quickly. I take it you never raised you hand and defended our country. I don't know this to be a fact of course, as I do not know you. But your rantings seem to indicate that.

If you mattered in my day to day being. I might be all butt hurt over your personal attack. You don't so I'm not.
Well, your post was full of lots of misinformation. Please educate yourself. If you find that a personal attack, well, so be it. :rofl:

frizz
10-14-2012, 13:48
Though oft-quoted by various professional liars over the years, I believe the origin of the phrase of something like it is Biblical.

Now, how sad is my life that I know that without research. :crying:

:supergrin:
Education is not a sad thing. You are better for having it, even if the dullards think that it is geeky.

Another thing, isn't it funny when a professional liar utters something so true and insightful? There is a strong ironic flavor to it.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 13:49
Don't need it, I am not the one crying. If you think it is so bad here, leave.

You really dont get it. You are less free than you want to believe. You are much less free than Europeans. If say you are German, you can have a foreign bank account. What do you think the odd of Americans having foreign bank accounts are?

Don't you think that one of the most basic freedoms that someone can have is to choose who to do business with? Once you are told who you can and cant do business with by a government, how free are you?

What you will say is "they wont come after MY money". Guess what. The US government is coming for MY MONEY. I have paid all taxes required to me to pay. I have complied with all Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Account (FBAR) that is required by the IRS.

So what happens...this is a letter I just received....

You think that the government is only worried about how to get MY MONEY? Guess what. Yours is next.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/ddt951t/bcv.jpg

DanaT
10-14-2012, 13:52
http://www.taxrates.cc/html/switzerland-tax-rates.html

When you include Federal, Canton, and VAT I don't see the real advantage. Oh, don't forget the Church Tax.

Church tax is optional.

If you add you State income tax, Federal income tax, Social Security, Medicare, Sales tax what do you really think your rate is?

Averageman
10-14-2012, 13:53
Dana Dana Dana,

Why do you waste your time?

These guys are ridiculous.

"Firefighters put their lives on the line"

"Soldiers risk their lives!"


And I whole heartedly disagree with the statement made by someone that decreasing benefits will decrease the quality of the military. History disagrees with that as well. In fact, it wasn't until you started giving veterans benefits that you got malik from in the hood joining the army fo da college benefits!
What will you do with a shrinking population capable of meeting the work standard and a growing need for the work?
If you want a Standard of potential competancy for a job you must have a reward given for meeting and keeping that standard. Tougher standard, bigger reward.
Now remove the reward, because you feel it is an entitlement, where does that leave you?
History also shows when we reach this point we either fix the problem or bring in foreign Soldiers to fill our ranks......... and it's all down hill from there.
I find it amazing that some folks want a service, recieve it then want to renegotiate the payment for that service after it has been completed.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 13:53
http://www.taxrates.cc/html/switzerland-tax-rates.html

When you include Federal, Canton, and VAT I don't see the real advantage. Oh, don't forget the Church Tax.

And look at corporate tax rates in CH and figure out why so many companies are there.

frizz
10-14-2012, 13:54
I don't remember attacking you personally. You must be a liberal, generally they like to get personal quickly. I take it you never raised you hand and defended our country. I don't know this to be a fact of course, as I do not know you. But your rantings seem to indicate that.

If you mattered in my day to day being. I might be all butt hurt over your personal attack. You don't so I'm not.
I think he attacked your argument, even if he implied you were stupid.

That said, you are correct on the issue. You probably saw my post that sarcastically and ironically said that basic pay was an "entitlement."

DanaT
10-14-2012, 13:58
What will you do with a shrinking population capable of meeting the work standard and a growing need for the work?

You were trying to make a point but you just stumbled upon a big part of the problem.

All the ponzi schemes that the govt runs (i.e. Social security) require an ever expanding amount of new people coming into the system to support the old investors. Even Bernie Madoff had good gains and it "worked" as long as he could keep "new investors" coming in.

So, why don't YOU tell US what we should do with the programs with an ever shrinking population contributing to taxes?

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 14:00
We're taking the entire state of Texas with us when we go.
Oklahoma and Louisiana are welcome to come along.

You just want us for our crawfish.

Fair enough.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:01
I find it amazing that some folks want a service, recieve it then want to renegotiate the payment for that service after it has been completed.

Do you believe that people, for example if they lose their job, should be able to file bankruptcy?

G-19
10-14-2012, 14:02
You really dont get it. You are less free than you want to believe. You are much less free than Europeans. If say you are German, you can have a foreign bank account. What do you think the odd of Americans having foreign bank accounts are?

Don't you think that one of the most basic freedoms that someone can have is to choose who to do business with? Once you are told who you can and cant do business with by a government, how free are you?

What you will say is "they wont come after MY money". Guess what. The US government is coming for MY MONEY. I have paid all taxes required to me to pay. I have complied with all Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Account (FBAR) that is required by the IRS.

So what happens...this is a letter I just received....

You think that the government is only worried about how to get MY MONEY? Guess what. Yours is next.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/ddt951t/bcv.jpg

I guess you wont be hiding money out of the country anymore. From what I read the bank is dropping you because you are not worth the hassle. The govt. did not make you close that account.

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 14:02
Church tax is optional.

If you add you State income tax, Federal income tax, Social Security, Medicare, Sales tax what do you really think your rate is?

I was in China listening to a Chinese woman explaining the Chinese tax rates. Ours are remarkably similar.

I walked away thinking, "If China is communist, so is the U.S."

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 14:03
I guess you wont be hiding money out of the country anymore.

If it's his money, what business is it of yours or anyone else's where he keeps it?

What business is it of the government's?

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:05
I guess you wont be hiding money out of the country anymore.

Well, as I have said, I have paid all taxes and complied with all IRS reporting requirements.

I will just go to a private swiss bank. No real problem. Just an hour or two worth of hassle.

dango
10-14-2012, 14:06
I was in China listening to a Chinese woman explaining the Chinese tax rates. Ours are remarkably similar.

I walked away thinking, "If China is communist, so is the U.S."

Not to off subject but it is my thread so's NEW WORLD ORDER !

NEOCONS........now back to your schedualed programing !

ENTITLEMENT.......................................@

Into the fray , freigh , phreigh , fragh , Whatever....!

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:06
If it's his money, what business is it of yours or anyone else's where he keeps it?

What business is it of the government's?

They dont get that because they think the the money is THEIR money first and mine after they give some of it.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:08
I guess you wont be hiding money out of the country anymore. From what I read the bank is dropping you because you are not worth the hassle. The govt. did not make you close that account.

The govt is making that account close.

But how exactly do you think having people holding money in named accounts move to unnamed accounts is making it harder to hide money for anyone who wanted to?

tous
10-14-2012, 14:09
You just want us for our crawfish.

Fair enough.

And your casinos.

:wavey:

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 14:09
I find it amazing that some folks want a service, recieve it then want to renegotiate the payment for that service after it has been completed.

The people paying for the service did not negotiate the fee. Public employees negotiated with politicians who had neither your best interest nor the taxpayers' best interest in mind.

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 14:12
Well, in general, people feel that it is the "other person" that is the problem. Cut everything except what puts money in THEIR pocket.

I dont care what govt program it is, that is how it runs.

There are so many special interests like this, there is no way to make the required cuts. We will go off the cliff and look like Greece. The end has already been written. It just how get there and when we arrive.

It's kind of funny that no one has figured out that you and I feed at the Medicare trough too......(you, at least any U.S. business you have).

Averageman
10-14-2012, 14:18
You were trying to make a point but you just stumbled upon a big part of the problem.

All the ponzi schemes that the govt runs (i.e. Social security) require an ever expanding amount of new people coming into the system to support the old investors. Even Bernie Madoff had good gains and it "worked" as long as he could keep "new investors" coming in.

So, why don't YOU tell US what we should do with the programs with an ever shrinking population contributing to taxes?
I'm talking about the Military.
How do you keep a Military if you don't want to pay them a living wage?
How do you keep new people comming in to replace those leaving when you screw those leaving out of promised benefits?
How do you pull from the ever shrinking qualified population when you do the above two?
The Ponzi Scheme to me would be that yu promise a reward for my labor and then pull the rug out when the job is completed and the reward is due.
As a believer in the free market you have to compete for labor, this equals money and/or benefits.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:18
It's kind of funny that no one has figured out that you and I feed at the Medicare trough too......(you, at least any U.S. business you have).

They havent even figured out that the people I need to hire will be 29 hours. At 30 hours/week Obamacare kicks in and it costs a lot more money. So my solution. I will hire 2 twenty hours employees instead of 1 40 hour. Of course I cant do that for the "professional level" jobs but the lower end of the employees will reap the benefits of having to be under 30 hours.

frizz
10-14-2012, 14:20
You really dont get it. You are less free than you want to believe. You are much less free than Europeans.


Your main point is valid, but the quoted one is debatable. Consider that in many or maybe most European countries, you can go to prison for expressing certain opinions. Then consider Britain's horrible defamation laws.

Rapist Roman Polanski successfully sued a magazine publisher for libel over a rather minor and unrelated error that cast him in a bad light.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:23
I'm talking about the Military.

I have already said that contracts that have been made need to be delivered. I also said that compensation may or may not be correct. Past pay packages are not binding on future pay packages.

What you dont see is your sacred cow is not the same sacred cow as bmoore's sacred cow. I promise you he would sacrifice your cow to make sure his lived and I suspect you would do the same.

No one program is the problem just like bmoores $40 a year is not the problem. The problem is when you add them all up, the money is gone.

How does your family pay for everything if you are spending 30% more than your paycheck?

bmoore
10-14-2012, 14:23
Wat you dont get is it is NOT $40 a year. It is an EXTRA $40 here, an EXTRA $100 there, on on on.

I will would make you this deal.

We go to a flat tax. everyone pays the same amount and then everyone has to send an extra $40 to their FD. I would go for that.

It is not any individual tax that is an issue...it is all of them combined. $40 in the taxes I pay is noise. I couldn't tell you +/- $40 in my tax bill.

I can blow $40 and not care. $40 to me is not going out to dinner one time a week. I would have to cut back to 2 or 3 times a week.

But honestly to some people $40 is a lot of money at the moment.

What people get upset about the SENSE of entitlement that public employees expect. You are showing why people resent it. You assume that they should just pay "$40 bucks a year". If people were so heavily taxed, they might not mind the $40 a year. But it the sense of "the public can pay more" that upsets us.

Awesome, you agree with my fire protection districts benefit fee. We are not a city, we do not get sales tax. We charge 40 dollars a year benefit fee to households in our district. 4 stations, 4 paramedic engine companies, 2 paramedic ambulances, 2 brush fire engines, a heavy rescue and an on duty batt chief. You call we show up. We have about 80,000 residents in our district and we turn out about 11,000 unit responses a year. We love it and are proud to serve.

I reside in an area that is a district not a city. My benefit fee is about 50 bucks a year. I gladly pay it. 3 blocks from my house where my wife and baby are I have a medic engine with 4 guys on it and paramedic ambulance with 2 medics on it. Money well spent.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:26
Your main point is valid, but the quoted one is debatable. Consider that in many or maybe most European countries, you can go to prison for expressing certain opinions. Then consider Britain's horrible defamation laws.

Rapist Roman Polanski successfully sued a magazine publisher for libel over a rather minor and unrelated error that cast him in a bad light.

In general, about the only thing that you cant say in Germany is something bad about Jewish people. That is illegal.

But in day to day life, you would be surprised. I was walking in the middle of Stuttgart yesterday drinking beer. I sat a table in the beer tent. There were 16 year old kids (they had an arm band saying they were 16 or 17) drinking liters of beer. No police bothered anyone.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:29
Awesome, you agree with my fire protection districts benefit fee.

I have no issues paying for what I use. I "use" fire protection and should pay for it.

In fact, I think direct taxes like this are best. You pay directly where the money goes. People would then pay what is important and throw the rest out.

EDIT. I also think getting the money as close to where it is needed. It is more efficient.

bmoore
10-14-2012, 14:31
I have no issues paying for what I use. I "use" fire protection and should pay for it.

In fact, I think direct taxes like this are best. You pay directly where the money goes. People would then pay what is important and throw the rest out.

Damn man we agree on something. I would like a direct tax to the military.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:39
I would like a direct tax to the military.

I have no issue with that. I would send my taxes in for that. I in fact think common defense is one of the main tasks of the govt.

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:41
Also why I like direct taxes (such as the FD tax) is it goes where it is supposed to.

Once money goes into a general fund, it gets moved where the politicians want to and misappropriated (they say re appropriated).

G-19
10-14-2012, 14:45
In general, about the only thing that you cant say in Germany is something bad about Jewish people. That is illegal.

But in day to day life, you would be surprised. I was walking in the middle of Stuttgart yesterday drinking beer. I sat a table in the beer tent. There were 16 year old kids (they had an arm band saying they were 16 or 17) drinking liters of beer. No police bothered anyone.

Where you carrying your CCW?

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:50
Where you carrying your CCW?

Well, I drank 7 or 8 liters of beer. Are you suggesting that I should be carrying a firearm when intoxicated?

bmoore
10-14-2012, 14:51
Also why I like direct taxes (such as the FD tax) is it goes where it is supposed to.

Once money goes into a general fund, it gets moved where the politicians want to and misappropriated (they say re appropriated).

I agree with you.

G-19
10-14-2012, 14:53
Well, I drank 7 or 8 liters of beer. Are you suggesting that I should be carrying a firearm when intoxicated?

Nope, just pointing out that Germans are not as free as you want to make them sound.

frizz
10-14-2012, 14:55
In general, about the only thing that you cant say in Germany is something bad about Jewish people. That is illegal.

But in day to day life, you would be surprised. I was walking in the middle of Stuttgart yesterday drinking beer. I sat a table in the beer tent. There were 16 year old kids (they had an arm band saying they were 16 or 17) drinking liters of beer. No police bothered anyone.

My point is, the difference in the levels of freedom is debatable. How easy is it to get a Glock in most European countries?

See?

DanaT
10-14-2012, 14:57
My point is, the difference in the levels of freedom is debatable. How easy is it to get a Glock in most European countries?

See?

When is the last time you drove 125+ mph down the highway? I did it 6 hours ago...

And how many of you have a full auto weapon in your house?

If you JUST judge on firearms, I would say Swiss are more free. It easy to get a full auto there.

Or maybe a sound suppressor. I can go down to a gun store and buy one in Germany (or switzerland) without problem. They are not controlled.

Averageman
10-14-2012, 14:59
The people paying for the service did not negotiate the fee. Public employees negotiated with politicians who had neither your best interest nor the taxpayers' best interest in mind.
Sounds like the Bonus March could happen all over again eh?
Once again, you elected these "Officials" to negotiate on your behalf.
Not being happy with how your vote turned out in retrospect is no reason to remove what some call an entitlement and I call my retirement.

frizz
10-14-2012, 14:59
Well, I drank 7 or 8 liters of beer. Are you suggesting that I should be carrying a firearm when intoxicated?

Two gallons of beer? :wow:

Daaaaayyyyuuuuuummm!

nursetim
10-14-2012, 15:06
Well, your post was full of lots of misinformation. Please educate yourself. If you find that a personal attack, well, so be it. :rofl:

Well show me where I erred. If so it was out of ignorance, and I claim many ignorances, most I don't even know I have until brought up.

Now if it is word games, such as "what is the meaning of the word "is"?" Then feel free not to respond. If it is along the lines of sovereign citizens rhetoric, again feel free not to respond. But if your stance is that all government programs, I say again, ALL, are entitlements, I would suggest that you are the one mistaken or ignorant.

I have explained my side. You have said nothing in your own defense, save slinging vague responses. I have read your other posts and I believe them wrong. What say you of substance?

muscogee
10-14-2012, 15:19
You really dont get it. You are less free than you want to believe. You are much less free than Europeans. If say you are German, you can have a foreign bank account. What do you think the odd of Americans having foreign bank accounts are?

I've been saying that for years. My wife can retire in 2 years. After that we're gone.

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 15:23
Sounds like the Bonus March could happen all over again eh?
Once again, you elected these "Officials" to negotiate on your behalf.
Not being happy with how your vote turned out in retrospect is no reason to remove what some call an entitlement and I call my retirement.

And we can elect new ones to renegotiate. Yes, even those who might jack with your retirement.

See how that works?

Averageman
10-14-2012, 15:45
And we can elect new ones to renegotiate. Yes, even those who might jack with your retirement.

See how that works?
Yeah, I sure do; I'm watching Obama care double my Tri-Care Prime costs.
I can almost assure you that before I do retire at 70 someone will come up with the bright idea of taking my retirement to fund more social programs so Shanequia can have three kids out of wedlock, get public housing, Obama Care, Food Stamps, an Obama phone and W.I.C.
The irony in all of this is one of the reasons I retired from the Military was that I didn't trust that S.S. would be there for me when it was my time.
I'm just trying to get a kid through college and live a middle class lifestyle after years of this crap.
I would stuff more money in to my 401K, but they will come after that next.

certifiedfunds
10-14-2012, 15:54
Yeah, I sure do; I'm watching Obama care double my Tri-Care Prime costs.
I can almost assure you that before I do retire at 70 someone will come up with the bright idea of taking my retirement to fund more social programs so Shanequia can have three kids out of wedlock, get public housing, Obama Care, Food Stamps, an Obama phone and W.I.C.
The irony in all of this is one of the reasons I retired from the Military was that I didn't trust that S.S. would be there for me when it was my time.
I'm just trying to get a kid through college and live a middle class lifestyle after years of this crap.
I would stuff more money in to my 401K, but they will come after that next.

I hear ya and don't wish you any misfortune. But we've crossed the point where the math doesn't work any longer. No sacred cows or they all get slaughtered.

If you and I were kings deciding things I estimate our priority list would look very similar, believe it or not.

dango
10-14-2012, 15:57
The only security one has is ones self and the ability to change.
Social Darwinism , you are the way , you are the light , you must
change your way of thinking . Once you wrap your mind around
this , the answer is hitting you the face .

I can not even count on money but , I can eat what I grow and that is what I will and am doing . The only sound investment I
can make !

RimfireMan
10-14-2012, 16:01
Well show me where I erred. If so it was out of ignorance, and I claim many ignorances, most I don't even know I have until brought up.

Now if it is word games, such as "what is the meaning of the word "is"?" Then feel free not to respond. If it is along the lines of sovereign citizens rhetoric, again feel free not to respond. But if your stance is that all government programs, I say again, ALL, are entitlements, I would suggest that you are the one mistaken or ignorant.

I have explained my side. You have said nothing in your own defense, save slinging vague responses. I have read your other posts and I believe them wrong. What say you of substance?
To start with, your definition of entitlement is wrong. It all derailed after that point.

dango
10-14-2012, 16:07
This is typical of all my threads , expect the unexpected .
I pride myself in that I can throw the proverbial bone to the pack of starving lions.........:supergrin:

frizz
10-14-2012, 16:31
Do you believe that people, for example if they lose their job, should be able to file bankruptcy?

Bankruptcy is an area where you have some misunderstanding. This has come up in other threads, and I'm looking at US bankruptcy law only. (BK=bankruptcy -- legal shorthand.)

BK isn't always a "get out of jail free card". You can't just say "I don't want to pay what I owe", and walk away. Yes, there is abuse, but this isn't always the case. You have to say "I can't pay what I owe" and then let the process look at your situation to see if that is accurate.

It a moral problem. Sure, it is hard to justify letting someone walk away from irresponsible behavior. But someone who has had a catastrophic illness that exceeded the medical insurance limit has a more justifiable reason. BK protects both the irresponsible and the unlucky.

If you have the ability to pay all or a portion of your debts with income or assets, you are likely going to lose some of those assets and/or have to make payments for a few years.

If you have personal property over a certain amount, and real property over a certain amount, the portion over the limit is subject to being taken in the BK case. Note that just as debts like student loans are generally not dischargeable, some assets are exempt from being taken; an auto mechanic's tools are an example.

Every case is different, but if you are single, have $20,000 in credit card debt, make $35,000/yr and own a boat and motorcycle worth a combined total of $5,000, you will probably lose those toys, and you may have to pay some of the debt.

If you owe $30,000 have nothing but an old car, make $22,000 and you live with a friend, you will probably walk with a total discharge.

Owe $50,000, make $150,000, have a coin collection worth $35,000? Expect to have your BK petition denied.

It also matters how you incurred the debt. If you owe $30,000 in cc debt, run up another $5,000 for a cruise then file a month after the cruise, expect to be denied. Running up the $5,000 after you fall and have some front teeth broken would be a different story.

You have to report all debts, expenses, any income, and any assets. If you don't report all income and assets, you may have your petition denied, and your debts will remain.

Small oversights, are not a big deal, but if you deliberately conceal any incomes or assets, and you get caught, count on your BK being denied, and pray you aren't prosecuted.



This isn't the academic view of BK, this is roughly what happens in reality. It may not match your experience with your debtors, but consider that you may see a particular segment of all debtors. I guess in statistical terms, you may have a biased sample.

It's like this:

Some cases are :wow::crying:
Some are :upeyes: :steamed:
Some of them are :dunno:


Sorry to talk your ear off, and if you already know any of what I wrote, please don't take it as an insult to your intelligence....

frizz
10-14-2012, 16:37
This is typical of all my threads , expect the unexpected .
I pride myself in that I can throw the proverbial bone to the pack of starving lions.........:supergrin:

We're still hungry. Like zombies, we think you look pretty tasty.

:grill:

Sorry about that. Hope it is quick! :tongueout:

Averageman
10-14-2012, 16:40
I read that they do not even pursue looking in to people claiming a need for Food Stamps. Aparently it's cheaper to hand them out and not even investigate.
People dont have the guts to get up and try anymore before giving in and taking the handout.
I see perfectly able folks pull that card out, who have seperated their legal groceries from their "Fun Stuff".
When the buck finally stops and it will soon, I can't wait to see the looks on some folks faces when the magic card doesn't work anymore and the Gov"t check doesnt come to them.

dango
10-14-2012, 16:56
We're still hungry. Like zombies, we think you look pretty tasty.

:grill:

Sorry about that. Hope it is quick! :tongueout:

EeeeeeeeeeK...................................:shocked:

frizz
10-14-2012, 16:58
To start with, your definition of entitlement is wrong. It all derailed after that point.

:upeyes:

No, his definition is not wrong. The definition is not sharply defined, so there no one single definition of the word.

You have posted one definition of it which you got from a law website. That doesn't make it the one and only definition.

Because of that, your arguments are specious, and your insults based on them are baseless.

:wavey:

tous
10-14-2012, 17:04
This is typical of all my threads , expect the unexpected .
I pride myself in that I can throw the proverbial bone to the pack of starving lions.........:supergrin:

If you are confronted by a pack of starving lions, I don't think they'll be satisfied with your stinking bone. They'll want to eat you, save the bone for later.

:supergrin:

tous
10-14-2012, 17:05
:upeyes:

No, his definition is not wrong. The definition is not sharply defined, so there no one single definition of the word.

You have posted one definition of it which you got from a law website. That doesn't make it the one and only definition.

Because of that, your arguments are specious, and your insults based on them are baseless.

:wavey:

There's the rub.

An entitlement is whatever the professional liars declare it to be.

dango
10-14-2012, 17:17
If you are confronted by a pack of starving lions, I don't think they'll be satisfied with your stinking bone. They'll want to eat you, save the bone for later.

:supergrin:

But I have have an ACE up my sleeve , G-29 ...!

MaMa didn't raise no fool...............! :supergrin:

Exit , stage right...............!

Averageman
10-14-2012, 17:38
My Grandfather told me that folks who lived in rural America in the MidWest were uneffected by and large by the Depression.
They lived season to season on farms and made most of their own stuff, They bartered for their stuff they couldn't make and worked in factories when the work was there.
Then what really got me was.
"We don't have Farms, we dont have Factories, we barely have Families, I don't think you could have something like that again, because we don't live like that anymore; so how are people going to eat?"
I think we just might find out how that will work for us.

tous
10-14-2012, 17:40
But I have have an ACE up my sleeve , G-29 ...!

MaMa didn't raise no fool...............! :supergrin:

Exit , stage right...............!

If you had G33 up your sleeve, she'd eat the lions for ya.

frizz
10-14-2012, 18:02
I read that they do not even pursue looking in to people claiming a need for Food Stamps. Aparently it's cheaper to hand them out and not even investigate.
People dont have the guts to get up and try anymore before giving in and taking the handout.
I see perfectly able folks pull that card out, who have seperated their legal groceries from their "Fun Stuff".
When the buck finally stops and it will soon, I can't wait to see the looks on some folks faces when the magic card doesn't work anymore and the Gov"t check doesnt come to them.

As much as I am don't like seeing the same thing....

Be careful what you wish for! You aren't going to like that day. It is going to get ugly, and it will be far, far worse than the civil unrest in Greece. Greece will be a holiday public celebration by comparison.

There is a huge difference here because of the underlying racial aspects of public assistance, particularly the fact that blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be on public assistance than whites are. The simmering racial tension will erupt pretty much simultaneously.

Mixing the immediate rage with the ever-present anger will be just like the LA Rodney King riot, except that this time it will be nationwide.

frizz
10-14-2012, 18:05
The only security one has is ones self and the ability to change.
Social Darwinism , you are the way , you are the light , you must
change your way of thinking . Once you wrap your mind around
this , the answer is hitting you the face .

I can not even count on money but , I can eat what I grow and that is what I will and am doing . The only sound investment I
can make !
Just pray that you can remain on your land.

Panglоss
10-14-2012, 18:12
Giving someone a phone because they are poor is an entitlement, it happens because "Well, duh, everyone deserves a phone." If the phone recipent had to do 8320 hours of work to get the phone, it would not be an entitlement, it would be compensation.

The GI bill is an inducement offered by the government to get people to enlist in the military, no different than the pay, leave time, access to the PX/BX or military retirement. Calling it an entitlement is incorrect. You may consider it excessive compensation, like paying a CEO or University President xx million dollars a year, but it is the same concept, the government offered it as part of a contract for services from the service member and the service member has a legal and moral claim to the agreed upon compensation.

The basis of entitlement is the idea of "I am, therefore I deserve."

The truth is, the GI Bill is deferred compensation.

The deal is, you serve in the military for low pay and benefits for some number of years and defer a reasonable wage, we will pay the difference between what is reasonable and what you get while serving in the future.

^^^^

this

frizz
10-14-2012, 18:20
My Grandfather told me that folks who lived in rural America in the MidWest were uneffected by and large by the Depression.
They lived season to season on farms and made most of their own stuff, They bartered for their stuff they couldn't make and worked in factories when the work was there.
Then what really got me was.
"We don't have Farms, we dont have Factories, we barely have Families, I don't think you could have something like that again, because we don't live like that anymore; so how are people going to eat?"
I think we just might find out how that will work for us.

What? Farms in the Midwest were horribly hurt by the depression, and then the dustbowl. Farmers who financed operations by using their farms as security lost them. Wheat prices collapsed below the cost of production.

You know the saying "California or Bust" by the Okies (and not just from Oklahoma) who had to leave their homes.

That was a bad time for agriculture.

roger123
10-14-2012, 18:21
So, let's hear from all active duty and veterans here on GT. How many of you went into the military for the GI Bill?

Not me, I specifically didn't enroll in Montgomery! Then they came out with post 911 and my youngest is going to college for free (I paid every cent out of pocket for my oldest, no loans and we made too much for any "assistance"). She has a 4 year degree and neither she nor us has any debt and the youngest will go and we will actually make money on the deal.

Panglоss
10-14-2012, 18:24
The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.

The truth is, the GI Bill is an entitlement program.

The fact is, it is an entitlement program.

Social Security IS an entitlement program by definition.

You need to look up the definition of an entitlement because you are wrong.

Nope, it really is an entitlement. Look up the definition of entitlement and look at the history of how it all started. The plain and simple fact is that it is an entitlement.

Wow, this is a stupid response. Please learn what the definition of an entitlement is. Just because you think you know what an entitlement is, doesn't mean that you really know what an entitlement is.

To start with, your definition of entitlement is wrong. It all derailed after that point.


Wow. Congratulations, I think you just won the award for biggest broken record in the history of internet forums (certainly within such a short time period)!

I guess you believe in the theory of argumentation that consists of repeating oneself over and over and over until someone starts to think you are right. Even though you have offered no evidence or good reason for anyone to believe a word that you are saying.

"Entitlement is what I say it is. Your definition of entitlement is wrong. You are wrong."

OK, we get it. Thanks for the informative posts. Please move along now.

http://www.allhailtheblackmarket.com/broken_record.jpg

dango
10-14-2012, 18:27
What? Farms in the Midwest were horribly hurt by the depression, and then the dustbowl. Farmers who financed operations by using their farms as security lost them. Wheat prices collapsed below the cost of production.

You know the saying "California or Bust" by the Okies (and not just from Oklahoma) who had to leave their homes.

That was a bad time for agriculture.

The dust bowl was caused by mans inablity to understand the enviromental needs of the land and nature. It was to say at least not an absolute but more of an effect of ignorance !

nursetim
10-14-2012, 18:27
To start with, your definition of entitlement is wrong. It all derailed after that point.

That's it? That is the sum total of you argument? That is your response? That's it? Why bother?:rofl::rofl: who writes your material? Bagdad bob? No, maybe it's that carney fella that defends barry all the time.

BTW, I get that from a bunch of people that can not make a cogent argument, so you're not alone.

YouTube - Billy Madison - Ultimate Insult (Academic Decathlon)

roger123
10-14-2012, 18:39
Outside of a few very specialized jobs in military, its not a job that most "can't" do. I just got back from road trip with my Swiss friend. You realize ALL MEN until 34 (unless they are conscientious objectors or are medically not capable) are soldiers in Swiss army until 34? So it is quite clear being a solider is something most CAN do.

You statement about wont do, is accurate, but statement about cannot do the job is not accurate.

Most, but you'll never know if you were one of the most will you?

Unless you were in, then I retract my statement.

frizz
10-14-2012, 18:44
There's the rub.

An entitlement is whatever the professional liars declare it to be.
I don't think that is the case. The generally accepted meaning, in common discourse, is an unearned government benefit.

There may be a related, similar meaning used in the political/legal community, but that definition is essentially jargon. The overlap and be confusing.

A similar word is assault. A long time ago, as common-law legal jargon it meant, roughly, deliberately scaring someone that you will hit them. Now it means the crime of actually hitting someone deliberately.

Back then, battery meant actually hitting someone deliberately, and it still does today. Strangely, in civil/tort law, assault and battery retain their common-law meanings.

frizz
10-14-2012, 18:57
Wow. Congratulations, I think you just won the award for biggest broken record in the history of internet forums (certainly within such a short time period)!

I guess you believe in the theory of argumentation that consists of repeating oneself over and over and over until someone starts to think you are right. Even though you have offered no evidence or good reason for anyone to believe a word that you are saying.

"Entitlement is what I say it is. Your definition of entitlement is wrong. You are wrong."

OK, we get it. Thanks for the informative posts. Please move along now.


:laughabove:

I had to look it up... I think he is going for the formal logical fallacy argumentum ad nauseam

:chatter: I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right...

tous
10-14-2012, 19:10
I don't think that is the case. The generally accepted meaning, in common discourse, is an unearned government benefit.

There may be a related, similar meaning used in the political/legal community, but that definition is essentially jargon. The overlap and be confusing.

A similar word is assault. A long time ago, as common-law legal jargon it meant, roughly, deliberately scaring someone that you will hit them. Now it means the crime of actually hitting someone deliberately.

Back then, battery meant actually hitting someone deliberately, and it still does today. Strangely, in civil/tort law, assault and battery retain their common-law meanings.

I agree. I have always understood assault to be the threat, battery to be actual physical contact and injury. But then I learned my law 40 years ago before dirt was invented and Moses was just a lad.

:supergrin:

That said, I tend to live by the contract day-to-day. I am entitled if the contract sayeth, not entitled if the contract don'teth.

Averageman
10-14-2012, 19:22
What? Farms in the Midwest were horribly hurt by the depression, and then the dustbowl. Farmers who financed operations by using their farms as security lost them. Wheat prices collapsed below the cost of production.

You know the saying "California or Bust" by the Okies (and not just from Oklahoma) who had to leave their homes.

That was a bad time for agriculture.
I can only tell you what he told me.
Central Indiana to Northern Kentucky was aparently much less effected.
I never knew them to grow wheat, the grain in that area is almost always corn.
Unlike the agriculture we know today, he used mostly draft animals to plow with until my Mother was born in the early 40's. He told me about standing on a horses back to watch my Grandmother walk to the barn to milk the cows.
As far as the price dropping below market price as I said they lived a pretty self sustaining lifestyle with little cash changing hands.
I'm sure extra grain turned in to extra cattle and milk if there wasn't a market for it.
They kept a "Garden" most of us would call a small farm up until they retired.
He spent his life working and worked until he was 90 in his shop making toys and furniture.

railfancwb
10-14-2012, 20:43
The cold hard truth is, we really need a draft, and level the ****ing playing field. Everyone serves for some initial fixed duration of time. The mentally ill, the invalid, crooks - everyone above a certain age serves in a capacity where they can make a difference.

Make registration for selective service - the draft - voluntary for all citizens 18 and over. Once registered, you can be called at any time up to your 70th birthday- regardless of what you are doing when called, you go. You may unregister at any time if you have not yet been called. Only individuals registered for the draft are eligible for federal elected office, and if an elected person - even the President - has his registration number selected he goes into service.

Averageman
10-14-2012, 20:57
Make registration for selective service - the draft - voluntary for all citizens 18 and over. Once registered, you can be called at any time up to your 70th birthday- regardless of what you are doing when called, you go. You may unregister at any time if you have not yet been called. Only individuals registered for the draft are eligible for federal elected office, and if an elected person - even the President - has his registration number selected he goes into service.
Most folks are ineligable to serve and if called would burden the system to it's breaking point.
There will never be an effective draft again. That Genie has left the bottle.
The Volunteer Army works as good as it does because folks want to be there.
I would really agree with you that the majority have no "Skin in the Game" and are Americans due to an accident of birth. they dont have the will or spirit to care for themselves let alone serve the Military.

podwich
10-14-2012, 21:04
Awesome, you agree with my fire protection districts benefit fee. We are not a city, we do not get sales tax. We charge 40 dollars a year benefit fee to households in our district. 4 stations, 4 paramedic engine companies, 2 paramedic ambulances, 2 brush fire engines, a heavy rescue and an on duty batt chief. You call we show up. We have about 80,000 residents in our district and we turn out about 11,000 unit responses a year. We love it and are proud to serve.

I reside in an area that is a district not a city. My benefit fee is about 50 bucks a year. I gladly pay it. 3 blocks from my house where my wife and baby are I have a medic engine with 4 guys on it and paramedic ambulance with 2 medics on it. Money well spent.

I like my job, too. I also think my job is important.

dango
10-14-2012, 21:16
Well , no matter what has been , I am warmed by all that are
con to this entitlement thing cause I now know that Ma and Pa
will comfortably exsist at your exspense , in your homes and life will forge ahead..................!

Averageman
10-14-2012, 21:25
I've invited my Mother to move in to my house any time she would care to.
I have no issue with her living with me as a matter of fact I kind of look forward to it.
If you look at successful Immigrents there are usually four generations living in one house.


Now if I can just keep the old bat out of my whiskey and snuff it should work out alright.

nursetim
10-14-2012, 21:31
Well , no matter what has been , I am warmed by all that are
con to this entitlement thing cause I now know that Ma and Pa
will comfortably exsist at your exspense , in your homes and life will forge ahead..................!

Yes, that is the it was before fdr. It should be so again. Fdr just made it okay and easy to disown your family. Family should look after its own. For those thinking, what about the abusive family. Well that's been going on longer than anybody here can remember. The family took care of that, physically, without fear of governmental intrusion.

Uncle willy, showing his to little girls/boys? In the 1800's.they would sew him up with his just his head out of a horse carcass. In the early part of the 20th century, his brothers/BILs would have a four wall counseling session, if that didn't work they'd invite him to go "fishing":whistling:

dango
10-14-2012, 21:41
I've invited my Mother to move in to my house any time she would care to.
I have no issue with her living with me as a matter of fact I kind of look forward to it.
If you look at successful Immigrents there are usually four generations living in one house.


Now if I can just keep the old bat out of my whiskey and snuff it shoulf work out alright.

WATCH WHAT YEE HOPE-ETH FOR ....! My Mother-in-Law is living with us NOW....! SHE has driven me beyond all limits
known to man , I am on unwritten ground with access to some NETHER WORLD so GOOD luck when that HAPPY day cometh.!

EEeeeeek.......................:shocked: HELP....!

NEOH212
10-14-2012, 21:44
Could this be part of the problem? I think so. :upeyes:


Original Obamaphone Lady: Obama Voter Says Vote for Obama because he gives a free Phone - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio)

Without question.

:wavey:

nursetim
10-14-2012, 21:49
No one ever said it would be easy. In fact many time would try the patience of Job. If I had to take in my idiot BIL or SIL, it would be a race as to who would crack first, my wife or myself. We both agree they are idiots. Neither should feel entitled to our help. We help because WE want to, not because they tell us we have to.

Other part about pre fdr, there were some miserable sods that either their family would have nothing to do with them and others that had no families, this is where the church stepped up. Still no one I ever heard of felt entitled to help.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 00:45
I guess you wont be hiding money out of the country anymore.

When I woke up, I realized what the left has really been able to do.

You ramble on about "freedom" and my CCW falsely claiming to be a conservative. Trust me, you are not the only one.

In the one little sentence "you wont be hiding money" you said a lot.

You have 100% bought into the class warfare. You never did say it was "my money". What came out in the sentence is very telling. I am "hiding money". If I stick money under my mattress am I hiding money?

What you are saying is anyone who has money that the government doesnt know where it is and have access to confiscate said money, is the bogey man.

This has all played out before. 1917 Bolschevic Revolution. There the bourgeoisie were blamed for all the ills and too many people not having enough money. Next up, pre-ww2 Germany. It was the "bankers" (read Jews) that the blame. Catsro didnt like anyone to have money (except himself). Today it is Hugo Chavez.

The story has been played out many times before. You just cannot see that the left has already won when you are talking about being "free" because the govt gives you permission (you have to ask for the CCW, you have to ask to buy a gun) to have a gun while all the while you are buying into their argument and making me your Jew because I am "hiding money".

I bet (if you had the skill) you would gladly take one of the jobs I have open and run as fast as you could to go buy a new BMW when you saw your paycheck.

Never mind I am creating jobs. I am a bad jew because I one of "those guys" who has a foreign (Swiss) bank account.

Have you ever thought that maybe it is easier to actually function in Europe with a European bank account? Probably not. You jumped immediately to "hiding money" because you have been brainwashed.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 00:57
Bankruptcy is an area where you have some misunderstanding. This has come up in other threads, and I'm looking at US bankruptcy law only. (BK=bankruptcy -- legal shorthand.)

BK isn't always a "get out of jail free card". You can't just say "I don't want to pay what I owe", and walk away. Yes, there is abuse, but this isn't always the case. You have to say "I can't pay what I owe" and then let the process look at your situation to see if that is accurate.

It a moral problem. Sure, it is hard to justify letting someone walk away from irresponsible behavior. But someone who has had a catastrophic illness that exceede<<<<<SNIP>>>>>

This isn't the academic view of BK, this is roughly what happens in reality. It may not match your experience with your debtors, but consider that you may see a particular segment of all debtors. I guess in statistical terms, you may have a biased sample.

It's like this:

Some cases are :wow::crying:
Some are :upeyes: :steamed:
Some of them are :dunno:


Sorry to talk your ear off, and if you already know any of what I wrote, please don't take it as an insult to your intelligence....

I took out parts that werent needed to respond.

No one has yet answered if they believe bankruptcy is acceptable behavior under any/all circumstances one my find themselves in. I wonder why?

But lets look at the the case where there is irresponsible behavior that cause the BK. Yes, there is a procedure and its not a ge out jail free card. Essentially it can be looked at as debt restructuring with some debtors doing better than others. All may be crapped on and get nothing. Some may get more than others. No debtor typically comes away happy.

This is what people dont see. They see we are spending too much and cannot keep up this level of debt. However, they want the OTHER debtors to be the ones who are screwed and not them.

Realistically, the choices are pin the spending cuts on some very high cost groups (such as SS, military retirements) or spread the pain around.

Regardless of how it is done, there will be pain. Look at Greece as an example. But, military pensions are easier to cut than SS/medicaid. Why? You PO old people and you dont get elected so go after a different group.

Sorry to tell you .mil guys, I suspect your sacred cow is in line much sooner than SS/medicaid, welfare, etc, etc. You just dont have the votes compared to the other groups. I am not saying this is right/wrong/otherwise. I am saying you are an easier target. Dont worry, you get a be a bad guy right along side me with my "money hiding". It our fault that the govt has a spending and revenue problem.

Again, I have my position clear on military retirements. No need to repeat it. (well I will...I would take every cent from welfare if it meant keeping our obligations to vets. I also do not believe the military is over-compensated for what they do. I would personally say under compensated)

frizz
10-15-2012, 00:57
Make registration for selective service - the draft - voluntary for all citizens 18 and over.


If it is voluntary, then it is not a draft. In the military, you are either a volunteer, or you are conscript.

frizz
10-15-2012, 01:10
I can only tell you what he told me.
Central Indiana to Northern Kentucky was aparently much less effected.
I never knew them to grow wheat, the grain in that area is almost always corn.
Unlike the agriculture we know today, he used mostly draft animals to plow with until my Mother was born in the early 40's. He told me about standing on a horses back to watch my Grandmother walk to the barn to milk the cows.
As far as the price dropping below market price as I said they lived a pretty self sustaining lifestyle with little cash changing hands.
I'm sure extra grain turned in to extra cattle and milk if there wasn't a market for it.
They kept a "Garden" most of us would call a small farm up until they retired.
He spent his life working and worked until he was 90 in his shop making toys and furniture.

I'm pretty sure northern Kentucky was OK. The dust storms probably were a drag -- they went as far as the eastern seaboard!

Having a farm in my general area (the Black Belt) would be good in the event of an economic or other disaster. For a really bad one, such as the electric grid being fried by a solar ejection, you'd be looking at a societal collapse.

In that case, you would need a farm and trusted friends/family to work the fields and keep roving bands away.

Imagine having to kill people who just want food to feed their starving children. Ugh.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 01:15
I would really agree with you that the majority have no "Skin in the Game" and are Americans due to an accident of birth. they dont have the will or spirit to care for themselves let alone serve the Military.

I would bet that you think I should pay taxes on income earned in foreign countries because of an "accident of birth", dont you?

frizz
10-15-2012, 01:43
I took out parts that werent needed to respond.

No one has yet answered if they believe bankruptcy is acceptable behavior under any/all circumstances one my find themselves in. I wonder why?


I snipped a lot because I think you are pretty much correct. Nobody wants their ox gored.


As for your question about bankruptcy being acceptable behavior. Well, you have another moral dilemma. One thing to keep in mind is this: a debt that cannot be repaid will not be repaid. That does moot the practical part, and there is a moral aspect to having a consistent system to handle the situation for unintentional behavior and bad luck.

All circumstances? No. If you do it deliberately, you don't deserve it. If you mismanage your money? I see both sides, but I side with mercy; it wasn't a deliberate attempt to cheat anyone. But accidental? Bad luck? What's the point? It isn't blameful, and you can't get blood out of a turnip.


I'm biased, though.

My father had the bad luck to lose his job and have a heart attack before he could get a new one. My parents didn't have many assets, so they could not do much in the way of paying the medical bills.

Bankrupting killed him from the shame, and it took almost decade for him to work his way through it emotionally. The toll it took on his health was awful. Not four years after he accepted it, he was dead at 54.

That's all I got for you.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 02:12
As for your question about bankruptcy being acceptable behavior. Well, you have another moral dilemma. One thing to keep in mind is this: a debt that cannot be repaid will not be repaid. That does moot the practical part, and there is a moral aspect to having a consistent system to handle the situation for unintentional behavior and bad luck.

All circumstances? No. If you do it deliberately, you don't deserve it. If you mismanage your money? I see both sides, but I side with mercy; it wasn't a deliberate attempt to cheat anyone. But accidental? Bad luck? What's the point? It isn't blameful, and you can't get blood out of a turnip.

But this is what happened with Greece. They are upset that they have overspent and cannot meet their obligations. Now they expect the Germans to pay their obligations. Germans have a problem paying for Greeks to retire at 55 when Germans dont get to until 67.

We are headed down the same path if we don't correct things now.

Right now, we (as in the USA) are in the stage where we can still restructure debt/obligations and maybe get out of it. A little later, its done and getting out will be like what your father experienced.

Essentially, we are at the point where we have gangrene in a limb. We can either remove the limb and the limb dies or we can be scared to make the cuts and let the infection spread. We all know the outcome.

My opinion is mixed democrat/republican on this. Some very hard cuts need to made in spending. Revenue needs to be increased. That said, I dont believe the govt should get ANY MORE taxes unless there is a balanced budget amendment.

I can justify paying more taxes ONLY until the national debt is paid off and ONLY if there is never again deficit spending and ONLY if the tax rate goes back down as soon as the deficit is paid.

Giving politicians more money is like putting a 4 year old kid in a candy shop, telling them they can have whatever they want and as much as they want, tell them you expect the child to make good choices, and then wonder why the kid is sick from eating so much candy. Then because you can't put 2 and 2 together, let them repeat this the next day, and the next. 10 years later you wonder why the child isnt healthy and look around and seem dumbfounded about how the child got into this mess.

The politicians are worse than 4 year old children..

kirgi08
10-15-2012, 07:33
If you had G33 up your sleeve, she'd eat the lions for ya.

:shocked: :scared:

muscogee
10-15-2012, 07:38
BK isn't always a "get out of jail free card". You can't just say "I don't want to pay what I owe", and walk away. Yes, there is abuse, but this isn't always the case. You have to say "I can't pay what I owe" and then let the process look at your situation to see if that is accurate.

If you're incorporated BK is a get out of jail free card. I have seen wealthy people hire others to work for their corporations, pay themselves all the profits and ignore the bills. By the time the corporation is driven into BK, the owners have taken everything worth taking and get to keep it while those to whom they owe money get nothing.

muscogee
10-15-2012, 07:53
The only security one has is ones self and the ability to change.
Social Darwinism , you are the way , you are the light , you must
change your way of thinking . Once you wrap your mind around
this , the answer is hitting you the face . Thats naive. If you live long enough you're ability to change will diminish. At some point it will become almost non-existent.

I can not even count on money but , I can eat what I grow and that is what I will and am doing . The only sound investment I
can make ! What happens when you have a heart attack, kidney failure, or something else that keeps you from growing your own food? You draw your Social Security and let Medicare and Medicaid pay your health care bills. When your Medicare and Medicaid are used up, the health care industry takes all your liquid assets and nearly everything else you have. In many countries there are laws that prevent that.

muscogee
10-15-2012, 07:59
I read that they do not even pursue looking in to people claiming a need for Food Stamps. Aparently it's cheaper to hand them out and not even investigate.
People dont have the guts to get up and try anymore before giving in and taking the handout.
I see perfectly able folks pull that card out, who have seperated their legal groceries from their "Fun Stuff".
When the buck finally stops and it will soon, I can't wait to see the looks on some folks faces when the magic card doesn't work anymore and the Gov"t check doesnt come to them.

You weren't around in 1968. Welfare is a bribe we pay poor people to not burn down their cities. It's much cheaper than cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. It's much cheaper than catching them, trying, them, and keeping them in prison.

muscogee
10-15-2012, 08:01
There's the rub.

An entitlement is whatever the professional liars declare it to be.

Good point. An entitlement is a benefit that someone else gets that you don't.

aircarver
10-15-2012, 08:10
You weren't around in 1968. Welfare is a bribe we pay poor people to not burn down their cities. It's much cheaper than cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. It's much cheaper than catching them, trying, them, and keeping them in prison.

They do that again, and the only welfare assistance they're gonna get is boy scout tents and ramen noodles.

.

Pwhfirefighter
10-15-2012, 08:10
I used the GI bill when I enlisted 19 years ago, and even coming up on 20 years time in, I am still grateful for it. I got $200 a month GI bill and state tuition assistance. I think it is safe to say that the GI bill is not the only reason I joined, after 19 years in. As I said, I am grateful. As to whether it is an "entitlement", well can't say I see it that way but we can agree to disagree. A lot of us who used the GI bill have been working and contributing to society and paying taxes.

Just my opinion.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 08:11
What happens when you have a heart attack, kidney failure, or something else that keeps you from growing your own food? You draw your Social Security and let Medicare and Medicaid pay you health care bills. When your Medicare and Medicaid are used up, the health care industry takes all your liquid assets and nearly everything else you have. In many countries there are laws that prevent that.

So should YOU (as in you muscogee personally) be responsible for paying for MY my (as in me personally) so that my liquid assets are not taken from me if I have a heart attack, kidney failure, etc?

Give me an exact amount of dollars and cents that YOU, muscogee, should be responsible for paying for MY, dana's, medical care if I were to have a heart attack so my liquid assets (read money) is not "taken" from me.

aircarver
10-15-2012, 08:12
.... As to whether it is an "entitlement", well can't say I see it that way ....

It's 'deferred compensation' .

.

kirgi08
10-15-2012, 08:12
Thats naive. If you live long enough you're ability to change will diminish. At some point it will become almost non-existent.

What happens when you have a heart attack, kidney failure, or something else that keeps you from growing your own food? You draw your Social Security and let Medicare and Medicaid pay your health care bills. When your Medicare and Medicaid are used up, the health care industry takes all your liquid assets and nearly everything else you have. In many countries there are laws that prevent that.


You die,folks do that every day.'08.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 08:17
This is my opinion, but paying for soldiers to be educated may cost money, but I suspect as a whole the GI Bill actually generates wealth. I am all for an educated population.

I can 100% say the sectors of the USA population that are uneducated are the sectors we are spending the most money on in terms of welfare, crime, etc.

Personally, I would be all for stripping Pell grants, etc from students and make them "earn" their govt assistance in University by serving in the military (the problem with this is the military doesnt want that many people). But the alternative with all the govt "grants" for college is the students are getting handouts and not earning it.

muscogee
10-15-2012, 08:25
WATCH WHAT YEE HOPE-ETH FOR ....! My Mother-in-Law is living with us NOW....! SHE has driven me beyond all limits
known to man , I am on unwritten ground with access to some NETHER WORLD so GOOD luck when that HAPPY day cometh.!

EEeeeeek.......................:shocked: HELP....!

Did the same thing with my in-laws. It was tough duty for me. My wife deserves Sainthood for what she endured.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 08:26
You die,folks do that every day.'08.

How misinformed you are.

There are people with special connections in the Illuminati that have access to medical devices and medicines that prevent death.

You just dont have enough money to buy them. Sucks to be part of the population that has to die, huh?

muscogee
10-15-2012, 08:50
So should YOU (as in you muscogee personally) be responsible for paying for MY my (as in me personally) so that my liquid assets are not taken from me if I have a heart attack, kidney failure, etc?

Give me an exact amount of dollars and cents that YOU, muscogee, should be responsible for paying for MY, dana's, medical care if I were to have a heart attack so my liquid assets (read money) is not "taken" from me.

I have a friend in Germany who developed colon cancer and lost his job because he couldn't work. He has some rental property and some investments so he was able to get by. He took some of his investments and started a business. He has recovered quite nicely. In the U.S. he would have been driven into bankruptcy by his medical bills and be on welfare. Which do you see as the better solution? I vote for letting people get back on their feet and work instead of being financially wiped out and forced on government assistance. Think about it. When that happens the healthcare industry gets the money and the person's support gets dumped on the government (i.e., the rest of us). This transfers wealth from everyone to the healthcare industry.

I'm not sure exactly how healthcare works in Germany, but we should be able to do as well here. As for what should I pay, whatever everyone else pays. Don't give me a, "Let them eat cake" answer. You know that won't work.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 08:53
I'm not sure exactly how healthcare works in Germany, but we should be able to do as well here. As for what should I pay, whatever everyone else pays. Don't give me a, "Let them eat cake" answer. You know that won't work.

You still havent said how much YOU PERSONALLY are willing to pay for MY health care so that I dont loose my liquid assets. Put a dollar amount on it. How much are YOU PERSONALLY willing to pay for MY PERSONAL health care so I dont loose liquid assets.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 08:56
I'm not sure exactly how healthcare works in Germany, but we should be able to do as well here.

That is obvious that you dont know how it works.

Are you OK with a system that you are only entitled to go to PUBLIC hospitals and CANNOT go to the better PRIVATE hospitals because you can't afford it?

Are you OK with waiting in line 8 hours for a shot at a public hospital?

Are you OK with being in a ward (no rooms) with 20 other patients?

muscogee
10-15-2012, 08:57
You still havent said how much YOU PERSONALLY are willing to pay for MY health care so that I dont loose my liquid assets. Put a dollar amount on it. How much are YOU PERSONALLY willing to pay for MY PERSONAL health care so I dont loose liquid assets.

I answered the question. You just don't like the answer.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 09:00
As for what should I pay, whatever everyone else pays.


I answered the question. You just don't like the answer.

You "answered" what everyone else is.

So you are willing to pay the same AMOUNT of taxes as me so that you are paying the "what everyone else" is paying? I am an everyone else.

When you gonna start kicking in your fair share?

But how much should "everyone pay"? Give me a dollar amount.

$100 a year? $1000 a year? $10000 a year? $100000 a year?

muscogee
10-15-2012, 09:03
That is obvious that you dont know how it works.

Are you OK with a system that you are only entitled to go to PUBLIC hospitals and CANNOT go to the better PRIVATE hospitals because you can't afford it?

Are you OK with waiting in line 8 hours for a shot at a public hospital?

Are you OK with being in a ward (no rooms) with 20 other patients?

They live longer than we do so it must not be too bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_United_Nations_.282005.E2.80.932010.29

DanaT
10-15-2012, 09:10
They live longer than we do so it must not be too bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_United_Nations_.282005.E2.80.932010.29

Can I ask you how educated you are? Where do you think Baden-Württemberg is? Now lets extrapolate this. If I work in the medical field, and I am in Baden-Württemberg, what do you think the probability is that I have had contact with the German health system?

muscogee
10-15-2012, 11:48
Can I ask you how educated you are? I have a PhD and friends in Germany.

Where do you think Baden-Württemberg is? Now lets extrapolate this. If I work in the medical field, and I am in Baden-Württemberg, what do you think the probability is that I have had contact with the German health system?

I have friends in Stuttgart and my wife was born in Augsburg. They're appalled at our healthcare system. I don't know how it looks from your end but it looks better from theirs.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think our current system that is driving the middle class and working class into bankruptcy is acceptable?

The majority of bankruptcies in the U.S. is due to health care costs. The majority of people forced into bankruptcy due to health care costs have insurance. Why should people work and save for retirement if they're just going to end up broke anyway.

muscogee
10-15-2012, 11:51
You "answered" what everyone else is.

So you are willing to pay the same AMOUNT of taxes as me so that you are paying the "what everyone else" is paying? I am an everyone else.

When you gonna start kicking in your fair share?

But how much should "everyone pay"? Give me a dollar amount.

$100 a year? $1000 a year? $10000 a year? $100000 a year?

That's a hypothetical open ended question with no concrete answer. I'm willing to pay the same percent as you.

dango
10-15-2012, 12:37
Thats naive. If you live long enough you're ability to change will diminish. At some point it will become almost non-existent.

What happens when you have a heart attack, kidney failure, or something else that keeps you from growing your own food? You draw your Social Security and let Medicare and Medicaid pay your health care bills. When your Medicare and Medicaid are used up, the health care industry takes all your liquid assets and nearly everything else you have. In many countries there are laws that prevent that.
I claim to be no Island and there are more than a handful involved . When I die , the CLAN will carry on and I'm no stupid man ! The stupid wait and do nthing ......!
Each and everyone have and know there task , life will continue !
What's your plan..............?
Sainthood , pass that around cause it's a way of life in these parts !

JohnBT
10-15-2012, 12:49
"I read that they do not even pursue looking in to people claiming a need for Food Stamps. Aparently it's cheaper to hand them out and not even investigate."

The author you read was clueless.

Of course they look into their income and expenses for housing, utilities, etc.

www.snap-help.com/?path=13&reset=1&split_id=150 (http://www.snap-help.com/?path=13&reset=1&split_id=150)

"After applying, applicants will in all likelihood need to furnish extra documentation during an interview with a state case worker and fit all prerequisites set forth by the state on an ongoing basis in order to continue receiving benefits."

The "all likelihood" refers to people - and babies too - already approved for another program such as Medicaid. Those folks and their info are already known.

John

DanaT
10-15-2012, 12:50
I have a PhD and friends in Germany.

The first statement is suspect, but if true, how is that paying off for you? If it isnt it is in something that doesnt matter.



I have friends in Stuttgart and my wife was born in Augsburg. They're appalled at our healthcare system. I don't know how it looks from your end but it looks better from theirs.

I went to Colmar and ate crêpe. I also ate tartiflett in Chamonix. I worked with 10 French people. I guess that makes me more of an expert about French hôpital than you on German Krankenhäuser.

Go ask your "friends in stuttgart" about private and public health care and which one they get in Germany.

But here is some help to start:

http://www.pkv.de

There dirty little secret that the Europeans dont talk about is the difference between public and private insurance. I give you a link, yet you probably still will not believe it exists.





You didn't answer my question. Do you think our current system that is driving the middle class and working class into bankruptcy is acceptable?

I didnt incur the debt. Someone else should not be forced to pay unlimited amounts to save you. Most people that in the financial position they are in had a lot to do with the position.


The majority of bankruptcies in the U.S. is due to health care costs. The majority of people forced into bankruptcy due to health care costs have insurance. Why should people work and save for retirement if they're just going to end up broke anyway.

WaWaWa. I lost all sympathy for peoples health care payments when I have always paid A LOT of money for health care insurance. What our family had to have done, was not covered by insurance. If we wanted treatment, pay cash up front. It cost me about $25k in cash at a young age. But guess what, it was important enough to have this medical issue taken care of, I paid for it. It is called "priorities".

DanaT
10-15-2012, 12:52
That's a hypothetical open ended question with no concrete answer. I'm willing to pay the same percent as you.


Wow. So you are for a flat rate? I like that. You pay 20% of your income for tax and I will pay 20% of mine.

DanaT
10-15-2012, 12:56
You didn't answer my question. Do you think our current system that is driving the middle class and working class into bankruptcy is acceptable?

You always whine about the working and middle class.

Well, lets see you do something for them instead of just whine. You are an educated person that should be able to help.

I will offer you an investment opportunity. You will get a 8% ROI as long as the firm is profitable in 5 years. You need to invest $3M. This will provide 5 to 7 good jobs for three years. Maybe even a couple more working class jobs for the same time. There are all kinds of creative ways you can come up with $3M.

When can I expect your investment and wire transfer to arrive? After all, it is help out the working class by creating jobs for the them.

LAWDOGKMS
10-15-2012, 14:06
So.....the 10K of college gi bill that 10 years in the military, serving my country in-the combat zone for Desert Storm, Desert Shield in the Gulf and Operation Deny Flight in Bosnia makes me a welfare whore?

dango
10-15-2012, 14:32
So.....the 10K of college gi bill that 10 years in the military, serving my country in-the combat zone for Desert Storm, Desert Shield in the Gulf and Operation Deny Flight in Bosnia makes me a welfare whore?

One whore to another , NO SIR and I salute you ...........!
And thank you for your service........!

Panglоss
10-15-2012, 14:42
So.....the 10K of college gi bill that 10 years in the military, serving my country in-the combat zone for Desert Storm, Desert Shield in the Gulf and Operation Deny Flight in Bosnia makes me a welfare whore?

Nope. Those are just benefits conferred to you as part of your employment contract.

The idea that this is at all analogous to an 'entitlement' whereby people are given free phones, free housing, free food, etc., simply for sitting around and doing nothing, is ridiculous.

NeverMore1701
10-15-2012, 14:43
I think I'll tell the next dude I see wearing a Rolex that I'm entitled to it and he should give it to me. Wonder how that will go.

IQof1
10-15-2012, 14:53
The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.


please explain how the GI Bill is a "social entitlement."

you see i read "social entitlement" as EVERYONE gets it. to receive GI Bill bennies, you MUST SERVE in the MILITARY.

i have now served 24+ years. i have spent over 4 of those years away from my wife and kids. i have missed, proms, homecoming games where one of my daughters was in the HC Court. i missed first steps, first swimming pool.

i missed first pet. i missed alot serving my country, time, memories and experiences i will NEVER, NEVER get back so that IDIOTS like you can complain about me receiving the GI Bill.

oh, btw, i PAID $1200 as an E2 for my initial GI Bill, THEN, i got the wonderful chance to PAY another $600 for TOP UP. THEN i got to watch as new guys coming in got the SAME GI Bill as I paid for for free!

do i begrudge them? hell no. social entitlements are free public education (indoctrination), welfare, unemployment, SSI for those that did NOT pay into it, etc...

please get an F'ing clue before you post more stupidity.

Z71bill
10-15-2012, 15:00
Is the GI Bill an entitlement?

Well DUH of course it is - but don't believe me - ask the VA.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/pamphlets/ch30_pamphlet.pdf

Go ALL THE way down to page 3 under the heading

"ELIGIBILITY and ENTITLEMENT"

These sections may also show some interest --

HOW DO WE CHARGE ENTITLEMENT?......... 20
CAN WE EXTEND YOUR ENTITLEMENT?...... 21
CAN WE RESTORE YOUR ENTITLEMENT IF
YOU HAVE TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL?....... 21

IQof1
10-15-2012, 15:07
Is the GI Bill an entitlement?

Well DUH of course it is - but don't believe me - ask the VA.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/pamphlets/ch30_pamphlet.pdf

Go ALL THE way down to page 3 under the heading

"ELIGIBILITY and ENTITLEMENT"

These sections may also show some interest --

HOW DO WE CHARGE ENTITLEMENT?......... 20
CAN WE EXTEND YOUR ENTITLEMENT?...... 21
CAN WE RESTORE YOUR ENTITLEMENT IF
YOU HAVE TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL?....... 21

Entitlement is being used as a description of benfits, NOT the same meaning as welfare, unemplyment etc...

after paying your dues or serving in the military, you are granted these benefits as part of your service agreement thus, you are "entitled" to receive the bennies.

it is NOT an entitlement in the sense of welfare. the OP is just trolling and trying to stir the pot so to speak.

Panglоss
10-15-2012, 15:11
Is the GI Bill an entitlement?

Well DUH of course it is - but don't believe me - ask the VA.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/pamphlets/ch30_pamphlet.pdf

Go ALL THE way down to page 3 under the heading

"ELIGIBILITY and ENTITLEMENT"

These sections may also show some interest --

HOW DO WE CHARGE ENTITLEMENT?......... 20
CAN WE EXTEND YOUR ENTITLEMENT?...... 21
CAN WE RESTORE YOUR ENTITLEMENT IF
YOU HAVE TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL?....... 21

I hope you are not serious.

This is a simple case of a word taking on a different meaning in a different context.

When you serve in the military you are 'entitled' to GI Bill benefits, which are a benefit of your employment. Thus the use of the word 'entitlement'.

You are not 'entitled' to a free phone, free food, or free housing, simply because you were born and exist in this country. These are the type of 'entitlements' (we could call them unearned entitlements) that are controversial.

If the GI Bill is an entitlement, then so is any other benefit or, more specifically, form of compensation, provided by one's employer; sick days, vacation days, health and dental, etc., are all entitlements, right? In fact, by the same line of reasoning, one's wage or salary would also become an entitlement.

These argumentum ad nauseam posts about semantics are really growing old.

There's a huge difference between something that you are IN FACT entitled to because you earned it, and something that you BELIEVE you are entitled to simply because you exist and because you THINK you are entitled to receive it for free.

Context.

Z71bill
10-15-2012, 15:39
I hope you are not serious.

This is a simple case of a word taking on a different meaning in a different context.

When you serve in the military you are 'entitled' to GI Bill benefits, which are a benefit of your employment. Thus the use of the word 'entitlement'.

You are not 'entitled' to a free phone, free food, or free housing, simply because you were born and exist in this country. These are the type of 'entitlements' (we could call them unearned entitlements) that are controversial.

If the GI Bill is an entitlement, then so is any other benefit or, more specifically, form of compensation, provided by one's employer; sick days, vacation days, health and dental, etc., are all entitlements, right? In fact, by the same line of reasoning, one's wage or salary would also become an entitlement.

These argumentum ad nauseam posts about semantics are really growing old.

There's a huge difference between something that you are IN FACT entitled to because you earned it, and something that you BELIEVE you are entitled to simply because you exist and because you THINK you are entitled to receive it for free.

Context.

The reason the correct term is ENTITLEMENT is because a law was passed - providing these benefits to people - if they meet specific criteria they are ENTITLED to the GOVERNMENT PAID BENEFIT.

That is what an entitlement program is -

Social security, medicare, GI Bill, unemployment payments, food stamps, free phones for the poor, medicaid, heating payments assistance, housing allowance for poor, heck I would even add it the earned in come credit.

All of these are entitlements -

If the very government agency that administers the program calls it an entitlement - why is it not an entitlement?

The problem with the terms is yours -

You could make a valid case that not all of these programs are welfare - but there is just no way possible to not call them entitlements.

BTW - congress passes a law that says a person - that meets specific criteria - is entitled to a free phone - they are just as entitled to the free phone - as a person that paid XX into social security is to SS payments - just as entitled as a service member is to the entitlement benefit under the GI bill - or a student is entitled to a student loan.

At least until the flow of cash / ability to borrow runs out or congress changes the law.

Averageman
10-15-2012, 18:27
I would bet that you think I should pay taxes on income earned in foreign countries because of an "accident of birth", dont you?
No Dana, I regularly work outside the U.S. and I feel like, if you aren't inside the U.S. they should have No claim on any of your money you earned outside the US.
That being said I don't mind paying my Taxes for my earnings here, I just wish there was someone minding the till a little better.
It would be nice if we didn't need to work outside the U.S. to earn a prime wage, and that wont happen until we bring industry back here.

Averageman
10-15-2012, 18:32
You weren't around in 1968. Welfare is a bribe we pay poor people to not burn down their cities. It's much cheaper than cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. It's much cheaper than catching them, trying, them, and keeping them in prison.
Actually I was living in the Chicago suburbs and remember watching the Democratic National Convention on T.V. right up until Daley unleashed the Chicago Cops on the protestors. I was sent to bed of course.
My Dad who was recently home from Viet Nam probobly made popcorn opened an "Old Style"and watched the festivities.

dherloc
10-15-2012, 19:05
I paid $1200 for my GI bill...never used it. Gov't can keep it. Didn't really need it anyway.

dherloc
10-15-2012, 19:10
No Dana, I regularly work outside the U.S. and I feel like, if you aren't inside the U.S. they should have No claim on any of your money you earned outside the US.


Not sure I agree with this one. You are, after all, still a US citizen...with all the rights and priviledges that come with that.

Might have to mull that one over. But pretty sure I won't change my mind.

frizz
10-15-2012, 19:27
If you're incorporated BK is a get out of jail free card. I have seen wealthy people hire others to work for their corporations, pay themselves all the profits and ignore the bills. By the time the corporation is driven into BK, the owners have taken everything worth taking and get to keep it while those to whom they owe money get nothing.

One example does not make a trend...

This is not very common. For one thing, corporations that are owned by only one or only a few people will seldom be able to borrow money or buy anything on credit without signing for the dept personally.

Also, your description is a classic pattern of when the law will allow creditors go after the owners directly. They may either get the court to disregard the corporate protection, or get the bankruptcy court to grab back money from most anyone who got money from the corporation.

Google "piercing the corporate veil" and "fraudulent conveyance" to see how this works.

Averageman
10-15-2012, 19:29
Not sure I agree with this one. You are, after all, still a US citizen...with all the rights and priviledges that come with that.

Might have to mull that one over. But pretty sure I won't change my mind.
Well I can to a degree see your point, but if I'm not there to recieve any of the benefits, I'm just paying for the passport.
I dont mind paying for that passport, but to be honest to a degree I see it almost as an entrance fee to get back in the country.
It does bug me to deal with the things I have to deal with and to pay and pay and then to stand in a line and see someone pull out that card and get their stuff for free.
I was raised in a very lower middle class Family where we were told if we work hard and save our money we will get ahead. Yeah you will get ahead and you will carry how many folks on your back as you do it?

frizz
10-15-2012, 19:32
You weren't around in 1968. Welfare is a bribe we pay poor people to not burn down their cities. It's much cheaper than cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. It's much cheaper than catching them, trying, them, and keeping them in prison.

That is a hush-hush reason for it. Back in the 1930s, a justification for the New Deal was that it would prevent agitators from being able to foment a communist revolution.

Eurodriver
10-15-2012, 19:35
10k for the GI Bill?

Not anymore.

THe point of the GI Bill that many of us are trying to make is that IT IS COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE.

I make over $30,000/yr in educational benefits! Thats more than I made as an NCO on active duty.

dherloc
10-15-2012, 20:01
Well I can to a degree see your point, but if I'm not there to recieve any of the benefits, I'm just paying for the passport.
I dont mind paying for that passport, but to be honest to a degree I see it almost as an entrance fee to get back in the country.
It does bug me to deal with the things I have to deal with and to pay and pay and then to stand in a line and see someone pull out that card and get their stuff for free.
I was raised in a very lower middle class Family where we were told if we work hard and save our money we will get ahead. Yeah you will get ahead and you will carry how many folks on your back as you do it?

Sort of standing at the fence on this one...not on the other side though...yet.

I have two friends that I worked with over the years that work mainly out of country. They come back every few months for a week or so to visit family, then go back. I would think ALL of their money is earned overseas. But, their families do still live here. So in their case, I would think that they should be taxed.

Lets say you are single with zero ties. That would be a better argument for keeping all (most?) of it.

But of course, there are lots of instances over the last few decades where the situation has turned south in a hurry for those working overseas. In that case, do you 'send in the Marines' to get a person out? My grandfather missed being caught up in the overthrow of the Shah by a month. He was working for Bell in Iran at the time and given a slightly different set of circumstances, could have ended up needing government intervention to bail him out. That intervention did not work out well in that case, but there are many others where it did. Those were tax dollars at work.

Like I said...pretty close to being on the fence with this one. Makes for an interesting discussion doesn't it. :wavey:

dherloc
10-15-2012, 20:05
I paid $1200 for my GI bill...never used it. Gov't can keep it. Didn't really need it anyway.

Oh...and I meant to add that I think mine was only good for about $12k. Seemed like a good idea at the time when I signed up for it...just never got around to using it after I got out.

The new GI bill...well, that is a pretty sweet deal. Think my brother in the Marines is under it and is planning on using it when he gets out.

I am on the side of the crowd that says it is deferred compensation. I think the word entitlement is being misused in this case.

I am also of the opinion that we do need to reevaluate some of these programs. You pay the ones out that you had a contract with, then move forward with something else. I would bet recruiters still fill the spots without it being as good as it is now.

dango
10-15-2012, 20:12
Wow , what rock have I kicked over....?

Let the rape and pillage begin.........! :supergrin:

frizz
10-15-2012, 20:23
10k for the GI Bill?

Not anymore.

THe point of the GI Bill that many of us are trying to make is that IT IS COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE.

I make over $30,000/yr in educational benefits! Thats more than I made as an NCO on active duty.

If you have a problem with military compensation packages, then you can push to have them reduced.

Really. Using your reasoning, we can call base pay an "entitlement program."

frizz
10-15-2012, 20:25
Wow , what rock have I kicked over....?

Let the rape and pillage begin.........! :supergrin:

Back under your bridge, troll! We ain't billygoats, even if we are gruff.


:tongueout:

DanaT
10-16-2012, 01:06
Entitlement is being used as a description of benfits, NOT the same meaning as welfare, unemplyment etc...

after paying your dues or serving in the military, you are granted these benefits as part of your service agreement thus, you are "entitled" to receive the bennies.

it is NOT an entitlement in the sense of welfare. the OP is just trolling and trying to stir the pot so to speak.

You are getting at the root of the argument.

The GI Bill (and other military veterans programs) IS an entitlement program. By law, by definition, by wording it is entitlement. I highly suspect if you read your contract the US govt is allowed to change entitlement benefits as they chose in the future.

It is the same as social security.

What you are complaining about (and other posters below you) is WHAT you did to get that entitlement program

What people have done to think they are entitled to the benefits.

Military Entitlements: You served in the Military

Social Security: You paid SS TAX

Can you see how people feel entitled? They did what was asked of them and then they want what they were promised in return.

Where you get upset is the equating these entitlements to programs that most of the population looks down upon. But look, people who receive these entitlements had to so something to be entitled to the benefits.

Welfare: Be born in USA and not work. It helps to pop out a few babies along the way.

Free Telephone: Be born in USA and not work.


The argument is not if the GI Bill is an entitlement (it is, end of story...you can say what you want but it is defined in law as such), but whether the entitlement was an earned entitlement vs an unearned entitlement.

It is such a hot topic because "conservatives" in general dislike welfare and other entitlements. I suspect .mil guys like them (welfare recipients) even less from the ones I know. Since they so despise them, they dont want to be seen as taking entitlements and being "one of them".


Again, I am in my own small world, but I see military service as something we owe soldiers for. Essentially, they have given up the best years of their lives to do something for society. I also believe the USA as a whole benefits from soldiers getting college education. I believe giving money for school to people who have given to the country is a better way allocating scholarship money than Pell grants.

But I also believe that as Americans our best chances for the future is to educate our children. They are the next generation(s). I would prefer to see universities andtrade schools follow the European models where a young adult starting out doesnt start in the hole. I would prefer to see university/trade school be free for all students (legally in the USA). Of course that said, our education system needs some serious fixing.

I know that I am a raving communist saying that, but some things are worth the price society has to pay. Paying our soldiers what we owe them = yes. Getting every child educated to be a productive adult = yes. Paying $1M to keep someone mother alive an extra 2 months = no.

To determine if a program is worth while, I ask myself, does SOCIETY benefit or are only individuals benefiting.

Take a free cell. Society does not benefit one bit, only individuals. = Not worthwhile.

jbailey8
10-16-2012, 01:13
I've always felt that "entitlement" programs should be more of a stepping stone to, help you get back on your feet, and not something with no expiration date making it easier to be dependent on my/your tax dollars.

Of course like everything I feel their should be some exceptions, i.e. assistance for elderly or the permanently disabled.

DanaT
10-16-2012, 01:21
Sort of standing at the fence on this one...not on the other side though...yet.

I have two friends that I worked with over the years that work mainly out of country. They come back every few months for a week or so to visit family, then go back. I would think ALL of their money is earned overseas. But, their families do still live here. So in their case, I would think that they should be taxed.

Lets say you are single with zero ties. That would be a better argument for keeping all (most?) of it.

But of course, there are lots of instances over the last few decades where the situation has turned south in a hurry for those working overseas. In that case, do you 'send in the Marines' to get a person out? My grandfather missed being caught up in the overthrow of the Shah by a month. He was working for Bell in Iran at the time and given a slightly different set of circumstances, could have ended up needing government intervention to bail him out. That intervention did not work out well in that case, but there are many others where it did. Those were tax dollars at work.

Like I said...pretty close to being on the fence with this one. Makes for an interesting discussion doesn't it. :wavey:

Are you aware of how taxes on overseas income works? Are you willing to give me a TAX REFUND when I never paid taxes because the overseas tax credits and tax exclusions exceeds my tax liability and YOU OWE ME MONEY?

There is also a $95100 (for 2012) tax exclusion. This means the first $95k is tax exempt.

...

Now, onto an example. I have an acquaintance that lives in Switzerland. She is a dual citizen (USA and Swiss). One parent is each nationality (for those that dont think you can have dual citizenship, you are wrong). She has never lived a day of her life in the USA. She has only ever done small vacations to visit family. She has always lived in Switzerland. The US government (IRS) sent her a letter that she needs to be filing US taxes. Keep in mind she has never lived in the USA. Never received a benefit (no schooling, no anything) yet gets a letter that she has to file taxes.

I can tell you what the end is. She is in the process of renouncing USA citizenship. One would think that is easy, but the USA wants its tax money....

geofri
10-16-2012, 10:04
Are you aware of how taxes on overseas income works? Are you willing to give me a TAX REFUND when I never paid taxes because the overseas tax credits and tax exclusions exceeds my tax liability and YOU OWE ME MONEY?

There is also a $95100 (for 2012) tax exclusion. This means the first $95k is tax exempt.

...

Now, onto an example. I have an acquaintance that lives in Switzerland. She is a dual citizen (USA and Swiss). One parent is each nationality (for those that dont think you can have dual citizenship, you are wrong). She has never lived a day of her life in the USA. She has only ever done small vacations to visit family. She has always lived in Switzerland. The US government (IRS) sent her a letter that she needs to be filing US taxes. Keep in mind she has never lived in the USA. Never received a benefit (no schooling, no anything) yet gets a letter that she has to file taxes.

I can tell you what the end is. She is in the process of renouncing USA citizenship. One would think that is easy, but the USA wants its tax money....


Hmm.. I also have a friend with dual citizenship(swiss/us). Only difference is he has lived and worked here for several years over the past 20 years.

Pretty sure he has never filed taxes when out of the country. I'll have to ask him.