Underwood 357 Sig 125gr at 1511 fps!!! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Police Marksman
10-15-2012, 11:34
Take a look at the improved Underwood 357 Sig 125gr. Gold Dot ammo at 1511 fps out of a Glock 32!!

.357 SIG Underwood 125 gr Gold Dot Ammo Test (SIM-TEST) - YouTube

Travelin' Jack
10-15-2012, 11:50
I've been waiting on this review. Currently carrying Golden Sabres in 357 Sig. I've been wanting to switch to the Underwood GD load if it performed well or to the HST if it didn't. Looks like Underwood it is.

ABNAK
10-15-2012, 15:31
Yes!!! I have two boxes of this "improved" stuff waiting to be shot.

> 1500fps is mindboggling! That is what the 357Sig should be loaded to.

For those folks that speculated that those velocities would be above the Gold Dot's window for integrity, well, guess not.

Me likey!

DeLo
10-15-2012, 15:36
that's amazing.

WiskyT
10-15-2012, 16:11
Lot's of muzzle flash and a chrono at 10 feet is not conducive to accurate results.

unit1069
10-15-2012, 16:17
Bottom line for me is this: The 100 fps higher velocity in the Underwood only provided a half inch more penetration than the Gold Dot, with approximately the same expansion. If I recall correctly tnoutdoors' test of the 125-grain Golden Saber Bonded yielded 16" penetration with .59" expansion and the 125-grain HST came in at 14.50" penetration with about the same expansion. tn said there was more recoil with Underwood, as should be expected.

If I didn't already have a good supply of "Big Four" .357sig self-defense JHP ammo I'd most likely pick up some Underwood, especially at the current price point competitive with the rounds I already have. It was good to see the Gold Dot bullet fare well at the 1500+ velocity with the energy well into the mid-600 ft lbs. Underwood seems to be doing all the right things with its high-velocity ammo.

Update: After reviewing tnoutdoors' videos the 125-grain HST penetrated 13.25" with .592" expansion and the 125-grain Golden Saber Bonded penetrated 16" with .579" expansion. Both ammos delivered 1" - 1.5" wide stretch cavities of six to seven inches in length.

CourtCop
10-15-2012, 16:23
After seeing that video I ordered a .357 Sig barrel for my S&W M&P 40 just for the fun of it.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

SCmasterblaster
10-15-2012, 18:50
THAT is one powerful loading!

avenues165
10-15-2012, 19:47
I am very impressed with the ability of the GD bullet to handle the jacked up velocity.

Now to get some for the G24. What, maybe 1,650fps from the 6"?

I was very disappointed to see the chronos a few weeks back of UW 357 sig coming in at ~1,350fps. It is great to see they are running this at the velocities that the 357 sig was meant to achieve. I would have been thrilled with 1,450fps.

A cup and core JHP at those velocities would be very interesting:whistling:

cowboy1964
10-15-2012, 20:17
I don't see the advantage over regular Speer Gold Dot or HST or Golden Saber Bonded. Just more recoil. I also prefer nickle cases, if possible.

RYT 2BER
10-15-2012, 20:46
Awfully nice

unit1069
10-15-2012, 20:48
I don't see the advantage over regular Speer Gold Dot or HST or Golden Saber Bonded. Just more recoil. I also prefer nickle cases, if possible.

Right. According to tn's test the Speer 125-grain Gold Dot produced 14.50" penetration and .567" expansion whereas the Underwood 125-grain Gold Dot gave 15" penetration and .560" expansion.

I do wonder if there's a practical application for Underwood's high energy for woods carry or against hard barriers. I don't know enough about those areas to know if it would provide a clear advantage.

ABNAK
10-15-2012, 20:57
Sierra

Nosler

Winchester

Remington

Federal Classic

*maybe* Hornady



The .357 Magnum wasn't bonded; far from it with a SJHP.

dkf
10-15-2012, 21:48
I was thinking that penetration would have come in less than it did with possibly a grain or two or shed weight. I was also expecting a larger damage path as well vs some of the other slower rounds. I do not get to hung up on final expansion diameter, I am more interested in the damage path and adequate penetration. The round no doubt put more energy into the target. I may pick up a box or two sometime to test out however I doubt I will stray from the HST and GS Bonded.

After seeing essentially the same 6 petal design in .357mag and now the .357sig higher velocities. I am thinking the same design in .401" would work well for the 10mm at higher velocities. The current .40 GDs in that application tend to achieve meteorite status.

NEOH212
10-15-2012, 23:36
Now that's more like it. Providing the cases aren't showing signs of over pressure, and providing it stays consistent, this load may finally set the .357 Sig out in front of the rest.

Time will tell but is sure looks like they finally have something here with this loading!

:cool:

Glock19Fan
10-16-2012, 00:32
This is some very impressive velocities and energies.

However, going along with the some of the above posters, I dont think that this round showed much advantage in terms of permanant cavity compared to other .357SIG loads, and even compared to other common service calibers (9mm, .40, .45ACP).

I am not a .357SIG fan (9mm guy), but I will admit this is very impressive. And like someone mentioned above, a non bonded cup and core bullet would definately be interesting. In fact, I think that a light fragmenting bullet in this bullet weight and velocity would be very effective, despite being a handgun cartridge.

I think Underwood has pushed the .357SIG in ways that give the .357 magnum a real run for the money, and capacity.

9mm +p+
10-16-2012, 02:47
Awesome load!

Scoob
10-16-2012, 05:59
That is impressive. Is it me or does the OAL look noticeably longer than the factory GD in the video? That could partly explain how Underwood was able to hot rod it to this extent.

PghJim
10-16-2012, 10:23
I don't see the advantage over regular Speer Gold Dot or HST or Golden Saber Bonded. Just more recoil. I also prefer nickle cases, if possible.

You are right if energy does not matter to you. I happen to think it does.

ABNAK
10-16-2012, 10:28
I don't see the advantage over regular Speer Gold Dot or HST or Golden Saber Bonded. Just more recoil. I also prefer nickle cases, if possible.


Use the right bullet and you'd see a difference. Cup-and-core.....

1canvas
10-16-2012, 12:42
I don't see the advantage over regular Speer Gold Dot or HST or Golden Saber Bonded. Just more recoil. I also prefer nickle cases, if possible.

I agree. with the increase in recoil and muzzle flash you don't really gain much in performance to justify the negatives. pretty impressive though for a 125grn out of a 4'' barrel. very impressed with the Gold Dot bullet at that speed.

TWS G26
10-16-2012, 17:20
Post of the clear gel test will be up soon. The results regarding expansion were virtually the same, but penetration was....well, greater.

chewybaca67
10-16-2012, 17:52
About time some one loaded it to its' potential. My home loads push a 124 grain basic rem HP at an average of 1530 fps out of a 5+" 357 Sig barrel in my G-35. Safely too. Just a tad below the maximum charge of #9 powder I believe. Penetration, exspansion, weight retention, that's all n' good but shootin' a gallon jug full of jello with a 9mm +p+ and the above load is like comparing Justin Beiber to Slayer.

SCmasterblaster
10-16-2012, 18:54
That is one awesome load. :supergrin:

Travelin' Jack
10-16-2012, 22:19
Post of the clear gel test will be up soon. The results regarding expansion were virtually the same, but penetration was....well, greater.

I watched your video when you first uploaded it late last night. The ammo was still in stock at Underwood at that time.

I went to bed right after and when I woke up this morning and they were sold out. I think it's time to get on the payroll. :rofl:

PghJim
10-17-2012, 09:07
Maybe I will post a picture, but everyone should be aware of what may happen if a 1,500fps GD round is fired into bare Gel. The expansion can go up over an inch with little penetration. Almost any clothing will stop this over-expansion. I do not know how that translates to real world shooting, but I stopped carry them. BB loads with the same GD bullet go over 1,500 fps out of my 4.5" barreled gun and I conducted testing a year ago. Now I was using gallon jugs stuffed with newspaper and water which may be harder on the bullet, but did see a picture of a bare gel shot with pretty much the same results.

SCmasterblaster
10-17-2012, 09:22
Maybe I will post a picture, but everyone should be aware of what may happen if a 1,500fps GD round is fired into bare Gel. The expansion can go up over an inch with little penetration. Almost any clothing will stop this over-expansion. I do not know how that translates to real world shooting, but I stopped carry them. BB loads with the same GD bullet go over 1,500 fps out of my 4.5" barreled gun and I conducted testing a year ago. Now I was using gallon jugs stuffed with newspaper and water which may be harder on the bullet, but did see a picture of a bare gel shot with pretty much the same results.

Now you have me worried about my 9mm 115gr +p+ carry load. I am concerned about under-penetration, especially here in heavy-coated Vermont.

dkf
10-17-2012, 17:38
The same round in the clear gel.

CLEARBALLISTICS Gel: .357 SIG Gold Dot Test (Underwood Ammo) - YouTube

SCmasterblaster
10-17-2012, 17:49
The same round in the clear gel.

CLEARBALLISTICS Gel: .357 SIG Gold Dot Test (Underwood Ammo) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iujNWfhUx4A&feature=em-uploademail-new)

That clear gel tells the story, doesn't it? :cool:

ABNAK
10-17-2012, 22:27
I REALLY wish they would've loaded a cup-and-core JHP to those velocities. That excessive penetration would've been tempered and the final bullet state would've been "dynamic" to say the least!

OctoberRust
10-18-2012, 09:42
Now you have me worried about my 9mm 115gr +p+ carry load. I am concerned about under-penetration, especially here in heavy-coated Vermont.


You should ask Mas what he thinks then. :cool:

SCmasterblaster
10-18-2012, 10:07
You should ask Mas what he thinks then. :cool:

I have asked my old friend Mas Ayoob. He warns that New England clothing could plug up my hollow points and turn my 115gr JHP into 115gr FMJs.

OctoberRust
10-18-2012, 13:55
I have asked my old friend Mas Ayoob. He warns that New England clothing could plug up my hollow points and turn my 115gr JHP into 115gr FMJs.


That means they could plug up 147 grain just as much then, only maybe even in theory more so since it's inherently a slower bullet so in theory less pressure introduced into the cavity anyways.

unit1069
10-18-2012, 16:48
I have asked my old friend Mas Ayoob. He warns that New England clothing could plug up my hollow points and turn my 115gr JHP into 115gr FMJs. (SCmasterblaster)

That means they could plug up 147 grain just as much then, only maybe even in theory more so since it's inherently a slower bullet so in theory less pressure introduced into the cavity anyways.

If I recall correctly Mas Ayoob has made two distinct points with regard to this question: 1) The Illinois State Police put away a lot of felons --- even in wintertime --- with the 115-grain +P+ JHP, and 2) because any hollow point can become clogged with material Mas clearly prefers carrying a .45ACP in the coldest months due to that caliber's large, heavy bullet that will always be .45" at minimum even if it's clogged and doesn't expand.

SCmasterblaster
10-18-2012, 17:33
If I recall correctly Mas Ayoob has made two distinct points with regard to this question: 1) The Illinois State Police put away a lot of felons --- even in wintertime --- with the 115-grain +P+ JHP, and 2) because any hollow point can become clogged with material Mas clearly prefers carrying a .45ACP in the coldest months due to that caliber's large, heavy bullet that will always be .45" at minimum even if it's clogged and doesn't expand.

Mas saying this. That is one reason that I was considering going to .40 or .45 in the New England Winter. :upeyes:

JW1178
10-18-2012, 19:25
I think everyone would have been happy with a load that actually averaged 1450fps but somehow underwood got an extra 50-70fps out of it. You would probably see average 1450's out of the G33 with that load. Makes me more determined to get that G32 barrel for my G27. I know the barrel will stick out some but I kind of like that look.

Gel is gel, it gives you an idea. There are many factors that don't show in gel. This sig load has the specs that of which the .357mag, and we know what kind of real world results are seen there. Combine that with the more modern Gold Dot, I think this is a winning combo.

PghJim
10-18-2012, 21:26
I REALLY wish they would've loaded a cup-and-core JHP to those velocities. That excessive penetration would've been tempered and the final bullet state would've been "dynamic" to say the least!

I agree with you. If the load is to mimic the 357 mag 125 gr SJHP load of 1985, we should try that type of bullet. I have some DT Sierra loads that go an honest 1,500fps out of a 4.5" barrel. It is devestating on everything I shoot, but you never see a gel test on it. I shot it side by side with a Remington SJHP, 125 gr. 357 mag out of a 6" revolver into gallon jugs packed with newspaper and water and the performance was identical to the Sierra's.

The 115 +p+ 9mm loads spoken so highly of above are cup and core bullets. I carry 357 sig HST's, but given the choice between GD and the Sierra cup and core, I would choose the Sierra everytime, except through glass.

ABNAK
10-18-2012, 22:56
I carry 357 sig HST's, but given the choice between GD and the Sierra cup and core, I would choose the Sierra everytime, except through glass.

I currently have the following 357Sig loads:

125gr Sierra Cor Bons (the last of them are loaded in my mag)

125gr Underwood GD's

125gr HST

125gr Cor Bons (their own make of bullet)

Since my chrono bit the dust I can't clock the new Cor Bons, so for now the "older" Sierra ones they loaded are my carry rounds. I personally clocked them at ~ 1400fps average, so I know what they can do. I have a Glock 32 barrel in my Glock 33 so I'm getting full-sized 4" ballistics.

Being a bit jaded with my recent DoubleTap 357Sig pseudo-Sierras (in fairness they did make it right), I'll wait before I buy any more of that caliber from them. However, even the Winchester JHP's they substituted would be fine for me except for that whole undersized/keyholing thing! :upeyes: Their velocities were spot on.

ABNAK
10-18-2012, 23:03
Makes me more determined to get that G32 barrel for my G27. I know the barrel will stick out some but I kind of like that look.



I have a Glock 32 barrel in my 33 and I like it. It's much easier to conceal 1/2" of bare barrel than surrounding it with slide and frame as well as the longer grip.

Yeah, the barrel sticking out looks kinda "Euro"! Sort of like a Beretta.

SDDL-UP
10-20-2012, 11:53
I'm not necessarily a "fan" of the 357 Sig, but this is impressive.

I don't think I'd want to shoot a steady diet of the stuff, but like anyhting else you practice with lesser ammo, then shoot your carry ammo every few months just to rotate it out.

SCmasterblaster
10-20-2012, 12:27
If I recall correctly Mas Ayoob has made two distinct points with regard to this question: 1) The Illinois State Police put away a lot of felons --- even in wintertime --- with the 115-grain +P+ JHP, and 2) because any hollow point can become clogged with material Mas clearly prefers carrying a .45ACP in the coldest months due to that caliber's large, heavy bullet that will always be .45" at minimum even if it's clogged and doesn't expand.

That ISP info is good news to me.

PghJim
10-20-2012, 13:02
I wish Underwood would make this same round with the Sierra bullet. I do not know the demand, but it would really perform like the 357 mag and the ammunition that was used, SJHP. I would not use Hornady XTP's because I do not think they would perform well at those velocities. Below is the typical 125gr Mag performance of this type of round.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/16622/357-mag-federal-125-grain-jhp/

The expansion may not be much compared to FBI protocols, but the FBI had much success with this round in the 357 mag. My 1,500 Sierra's from DT would probably give the performance as what is shown for the Federal 125gr Mag. What say you Kevin, make 357 sig with cup and core bullets??

You might say just buy DT. Well, I do not like DT and he only sells them in 20 rounds boxes for $35.

SCmasterblaster
10-20-2012, 13:35
I wish Underwood would make this same round with the Sierra bullet. I do not know the demand, but it would really perform like the 357 mag and the ammunition that was used, SJHP. I would not use Hornady XTP's because I do not think they would perform well at those velocities. Below is the typical 125gr Mag performance of this type of round.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/16622/357-mag-federal-125-grain-jhp/

The expansion may not be much compared to FBI protocols, but the FBI had much success with this round in the 357 mag. My 1,500 Sierra's from DT would probably give the performance as what is shown for the Federal 125gr Mag. What say you Kevin, make 357 sig with cup and core bullets??

You might say just buy DT. Well, I do not like DT and he only sells them in 20 rounds boxes for $35.

Yes indeed, Sierra makes good bullets.

:supergrin:

dkf
10-20-2012, 14:07
I wish Underwood would make this same round with the Sierra bullet. I do not know the demand, but it would really perform like the 357 mag and the ammunition that was used, SJHP. I would not use Hornady XTP's because I do not think they would perform well at those velocities. Below is the typical 125gr Mag performance of this type of round.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/16622/357-mag-federal-125-grain-jhp/

The expansion may not be much compared to FBI protocols, but the FBI had much success with this round in the 357 mag. My 1,500 Sierra's from DT would probably give the performance as what is shown for the Federal 125gr Mag. What say you Kevin, make 357 sig with cup and core bullets??

You might say just buy DT. Well, I do not like DT and he only sells them in 20 rounds boxes for $35.

The XTP designed for the .357sig would probably hold up decently but the 9mm XTP will not. The .357sig XTP is not available to reloaders though. In addition to the Sierra the 124gr Nosler might not do to bad. The HP cavity on the Noslers is somewhat small and the desing is pretty tough.

SCmasterblaster
10-20-2012, 14:12
I'd handload my 9mmP CCW rounds with the Sierra 115gr JHP. It is a great bullet. :cool:

M 7
10-20-2012, 14:38
Take a look at the improved Underwood 357 Sig 125gr. Gold Dot ammo at 1511 fps out of a Glock 32!!

.357 SIG Underwood 125 gr Gold Dot Ammo Test (SIM-TEST) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughIFOrIP_w&feature=plcp)

Interesting.

Out of curiosity, I put his test data (0.567"/125.3gr/1511fps Pen = 15") through the Schwartz bullet penetration model found in Quantitative Ammunition Selection and came up with a penetration depth of 15.4 inches.

Looks like the SimTest stuff is a pretty close match to calibrated ordnance gelatin. :thumbsup:

NEOH212
10-20-2012, 15:43
I REALLY wish they would've loaded a cup-and-core JHP to those velocities. That excessive penetration would've been tempered and the final bullet state would've been "dynamic" to say the least!

I'd like to see someone get a box Ranger T-Series ammo, pull the bullets and load them to these velocities and see the results.

unit1069
10-20-2012, 16:54
The XTP designed for the .357sig would probably hold up decently but the 9mm XTP will not. The .357sig XTP is not available to reloaders though. In addition to the Sierra the 124gr Nosler might not do to bad. The HP cavity on the Noslers is somewhat small and the desing is pretty tough.

I didn't know Hornady made specific XTP bullets for their .357sig loads. I have both the 124- and 147-grain XTP rounds in that caliber and it's good to know Hornady isn't using their 9mm bullets in the cartridges.

PghJim
10-20-2012, 18:14
The XTP designed for the .357sig would probably hold up decently but the 9mm XTP will not. The .357sig XTP is not available to reloaders though. In addition to the Sierra the 124gr Nosler might not do to bad. The HP cavity on the Noslers is somewhat small and the desing is pretty tough.

Like unit, I did not know that Hornady makes a special XTP for 357 Sig. Can you tell me more, prodoct code, etc. I know you said not for loader, but I am interested and will call Hornady if I knew the correct bullet. I have a load for my 38 Super that goes almost 1,500fps and I did not want to use the 9mm XTP.

dkf
10-20-2012, 19:37
Whatever the product number is for the .357sig 124gr XTP Hornady Custom load is, that is what had the different non 9mm bullet. I only have first hand experience with the 124gr XTP factory loads. I am currently out of them, shot them all. I bought several 100ct boxes of 90gr, 115gr and 124gr XTPs and they all have a different nose shape and HP cavity than what cam loaded in Hornadys 124gr sig ammo.

Speer GD 53918 (left) Hornady Custom 124gr XTP .357sig factory load (right)
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/357SIGSpeerGD23918andHornadyXTP2jpg.jpg

Speer GD 54234 (left) Hand Load 100ct boxed 124gr XTP (right)
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/357sigGDvs9mmXTPjpg.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/?action=view&current=357sigGDvs9mmXTPjpg.jpg)

The 9mm version that comes in the 100ct boxes for reloaders obviously has a smaller metplat, more side angle and the hp cavity is deeper and more cone shaped. The .357sig XTP is closer to the shape of the GD with a larger metplat and a shallower more dish shape hp cavity. Also notice the cannelure on the sig XTP which the 9mm version does not have. The cannelure helps to hold the jacket together. The sig HST bullet has a cannelure as well.

PghJim
10-20-2012, 19:57
Are you saying that on the top picture, the bullet on the right is the Hornady bullet for 357 sig?

dkf
10-20-2012, 20:00
Are you saying that on the top picture, the bullet on the right is the Hornady bullet for 357 sig?

Yes.




Ten minimum.:upeyes:

Glock19Fan
10-20-2012, 20:40
The serrations on the .357SIG XTP also seen shorter, but deeper.

I wonder if the bullet shape effects reliability of the cartridge?

unit1069
10-20-2012, 21:19
Whatever the product number is for the .357sig 124gr XTP Hornady Custom load is, that is what had the different non 9mm bullet. I only have first hand experience with the 124gr XTP factory loads. I am currently out of them, shot them all. I bought several 100ct boxes of 90gr, 115gr and 124gr XTPs and they all have a different nose shape and HP cavity than what cam loaded in Hornadys 124gr sig ammo.

Speer GD 53918 (left) Hornady Custom 124gr XTP .357sig factory load (right)
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/357SIGSpeerGD23918andHornadyXTP2jpg.jpg

Speer GD 54234 (left) Hand Load 100ct boxed 124gr XTP (right)
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/357sigGDvs9mmXTPjpg.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/?action=view&current=357sigGDvs9mmXTPjpg.jpg)

The 9mm version that comes in the 100ct boxes for reloaders obviously has a smaller metplat, more side angle and the hp cavity is deeper and more cone shaped. The .357sig XTP is closer to the shape of the GD with a larger metplat and a shallower more dish shape hp cavity. Also notice the cannelure on the sig XTP which the 9mm version does not have. The cannelure helps to hold the jacket together. The sig HST bullet has a cannelure as well.

Thanks for the photos. I pulled out my two Hornady .357sig ammos and the Fiocchi 115-grain 9mm Extrema XTP rounds and compared them.

Both the Hornady .357sig rounds look exactly like the .357sig rounds in your photos and have the cannelure while the 115-grain Extrema has a straighter, narrower profile like the 124-grain factory round you show without the cannelure. And the cavity in the 9mm XTP is deeper than the cavities in the two .357sig XTPs.

I'm really happy to know I've got a 147-grain round specifically designed for .357sig. No wonder tnoutdoors got over 16" penetration when he tested it.

shotgunred
10-21-2012, 10:17
Post of the clear gel test will be up soon. The results regarding expansion were virtually the same, but penetration was....well, greater.

How about showing the used cases. Are the primers flattened?
Are the cases bulged?

bmoore
10-21-2012, 10:49
Great review and that is a great load, I have a box.

PghJim
10-21-2012, 11:17
How about showing the used cases. Are the primers flattened?
Are the cases bulged?

The primers will be flat even if the pressure was only 30,000psi. On Glocks an indication would be primer flow back into the striker slot on the breech face, and the appearance of the striker mark. If the striker marks start to, or completely disapears it could be a sign of excessive pressure. I have found this to be the case even with hard primers like CCI.

Additionally, can you insert the fired casing back in the chamber and pull it out with only your fingers. If the fired case will not come out without prying or putting a rod down the barrel, it could be a sign of over pressure.

A bulged case would be an indication of a barrel without full support, although if the pressure is real high the case may bulge. I would expect to see other signs also.

dkf
10-21-2012, 13:19
How about showing the used cases. Are the primers flattened?
Are the cases bulged?

You should see what the primers look like on the Speer factory .357sig Gold Dots. Flatter than a pancake. They are soft unplated brass primers. So I don't put too much faith in reading primers but I can somewhat tell the difference on my reloads which all use the same primers.

meatloaf samwich
10-21-2012, 19:15
Now that's more like it. Providing the cases aren't showing signs of over pressure, and providing it stays consistent, this load may finally set the .357 Sig out in front of the rest.

Time will tell but is sure looks like they finally have something here with this loading!

:cool:

I shot this Underwood load in comparison to a box of federal 125gr. I cut afederal 5" group @ 10 yards to 2" using the Underwood. I spoke to the owner, Kevin Underwood and he said that his business plan is to deliver a premium ammo that delivers better energy dump and expansion at a price that is less than the "premium" manufacturers.

He has great customer service. I screwed up an order and he fixed it for me at no charge.

Accurate, loaded to what the 357sig should be, and great CS. I'm a fan.

No case bulging or smileys.

meatloaf samwich
10-21-2012, 19:20
I was thinking that penetration would have come in less than it did with possibly a grain or two or shed weight. I was also expecting a larger damage path as well vs some of the other slower rounds. I do not get to hung up on final expansion diameter, I am more interested in the damage path and adequate penetration. The round no doubt put more energy into the target. I may pick up a box or two sometime to test out however I doubt I will stray from the HST and GS Bonded.

After seeing essentially the same 6 petal design in .357mag and now the .357sig higher velocities. I am thinking the same design in .401" would work well for the 10mm at higher velocities. The current .40 GDs in that application tend to achieve meteorite status.

Check out the vid by tn9outdoors on their 10mm load & you will love the results.

clarkstoncz
10-21-2012, 20:19
Lots of interesting ammo in this thread.

I'm comfortable with the recoil and muzzle blast from the DT 125 Bonded Defense,
and CB 125 Sierras.

The Underwood 125 GDs might be too much of a good thing?

Still, it's nice to see yet another company joining in the .357 SIG fun!

SCmasterblaster
10-22-2012, 10:24
Like I asked in another thread - I wonder how many police departments in the USA use the .357 Sig?

dkf
10-22-2012, 10:32
Don't know how current the list is but there is probably more depts using it than listed.

In 1995, the Texas Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Highway_Patrol) became the first government agency to deploy a firearm utilizing .357 SIG cartridge.
The SIG Sauer P229 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P229) in .357 SIG has been adopted for use by agents and officers of the following national and state organizations:


United States Secret Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-ayoob2004-1)
Bureau of Industry and Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Industry_and_Security),
Federal Air Marshals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshals),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-ayoob2004-1)
Delaware State Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_State_Police),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-ayoob2004-1)
Rhode Island State Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhode_Island_State_Police),
Virginia State Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_State_Police),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-ayoob2004-1)
Montana Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Highway_Patrol)
North Carolina Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Highway_Patrol)

The Tennessee Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Highway_Patrol) currently issues the Glock 31 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#.357_SIG) pistol chambered in .357 SIG. The Mississippi Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_Highway_Patrol) issues a (Glock 31 Generation 4) with their logo engraved on the weapon.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-20)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-21) The Bedford Heights Police Department in Ohio currently issues the Glock 31/32/33. The Elloree Police Department in South Carolina Elloree Police (http://www.elloreesc.com/police.htm) also issues the Glock 31, .357 SIG and the Madison Police Department in Madison, WV issues the Glock 32 in .357 SIG. The Lexington Police Department in North Carolina issues the Sig P229 DAK in .357 Sig. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol issues the SIG Sauer P226 in .357 SIG. The Paramus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramus) Police Department in New Jersey also issues the SIG P226 in .357 SIG. The West Grove Borough Police Department, West Grove PA, also carry the SIG Sauer P226 in the .357 SIG caliber. The North Carolina State Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_State_Highway_Patrol) uses Smith & Wesson M&Ps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_M%26P) chambered in .357 SIG. The Herculaneum (Missouri) Police Department uses the P226 and P229 in .357 SIG. The Orlando Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Police_Department) uses the SIG Sauer P226 in .357 SIG.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig#cite_note-22)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig

1canvas
10-22-2012, 10:42
Lots of interesting ammo in this thread.

I'm comfortable with the recoil and muzzle blast from the DT 125 Bonded Defense,
and CB 125 Sierras.

The Underwood 125 GDs might be too much of a good thing?

Still, it's nice to see yet another company joining in the .357 SIG fun!

I shoot and carry both GDs and HSTs and comfortable with those but I'm also with you on the underwood ammo.

SCmasterblaster
10-22-2012, 10:59
Don't know how current the list is but there is probably more depts using it than listed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/357_Sig

we should be getting bullet performance data as time goes by.

WiskyT
10-22-2012, 15:26
we should be getting bullet performance data as time goes by.

Those agencies don't shoot a lot of people.

SCmasterblaster
10-22-2012, 15:30
Those agencies don't shoot a lot of people.

I guess that you are correct.

Here is a link to .357 Sig stopping power data:

http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=6&Weight=All

Taphius
10-22-2012, 21:58
I really need to get some 357 barrels for my 22/23/27 now...

SCmasterblaster
10-23-2012, 10:52
You should see what the primers look like on the Speer factory .357sig Gold Dots. Flatter than a pancake. They are soft unplated brass primers. So I don't put too much faith in reading primers but I can somewhat tell the difference on my reloads which all use the same primers.

High-pressure rounds, for sure. :cool:

dougader
10-28-2012, 14:29
I have loaded a few rounds in the 9x23 Wuchester and fired them at gallon milk jugs filled with water.

The Winchester bulk 115 jhp completely frags at 1600 fps, shredding the first 2 water jugs and staying within the 3rd jug.

The 124 grain 9mm xtp does lose it's jacket at 1450 fps, shreds the 1st jug, tears up the 2nd jug, but it penetrates into the 4th jug and retains about 73% of its weight.

The 124 grain 9mm Gold Dot (not the 357 Sig bullet) also shreds the first 2 jugs and pentrates into the 4th water jug, but the petals did not shear off and retained weight was about 122 grains.

When loading over 1500 fps in the 9x23 Win, you really do need to step up to a tougher bullet like the Speer GD 125 grain Sig bullet. I was really surpised, though, how well the Speer 9mm GD held up at 1400+ fps.

SCmasterblaster
10-28-2012, 14:34
I have loaded a few rounds in the 9x23 Wuchester and fired them at gallon milk jugs filled with water.

The Winchester bulk 115 jhp completely frags at 1600 fps, shredding the first 2 water jugs and staying within the 3rd jug.

The 124 grain 9mm xtp does lose it's jacket at 1450 fps, shreds the 1st jug, tears up the 2nd jug, but it penetrates into the 4th jug and retains about 73% of its weight.

The 124 grain 9mm Gold Dot (not the 357 Sig bullet) also shreds the first 2 jugs and pentrates into the 4th water jug, but the petals did not shear off and retained weight was about 122 grains.

When loading over 1500 fps in the 9x23 Win, you really do need to step up to a tougher bullet like the Speer GD 125 grain Sig bullet. I was really surpised, though, how well the Speer 9mm GD held up at 1400+ fps.

Speer Gold Dot bullets are excellent.

TWS G26
10-28-2012, 21:06
How about showing the used cases. Are the primers flattened?
Are the cases bulged?


Primers are flat and brass measurements are below; Starline brass:

Brass diameter, measured 1/8" above the extractor groove:
Unfired: .420"
Fired: .425"

PghJim
10-28-2012, 22:05
Although I carry HST's, I just bought a couple boxes of Underwood just to have them. Makes one wonder why large ammo companies are watering down their 357 sig loads just like they did with the 10mm. It would be great if HST's went above 1,425fps out of a 4" barrel. I can sometimes reach that number with a 4.5 or 5" barrel.

PghJim
10-28-2012, 22:10
Primers are flat and brass measurements are below; Starline brass:

Brass diameter, measured 1/8" above the extractor groove:
Unfired: .420"
Fired: .425"

I think I saw your test of one Corbon load that was a cup and core bullet and I was wondering if you would be willing to test the Double Tap 125gr 357 sig load that uses Seirra bullets. These go 1,500fps out of my 4.5" barrel and I think they would represent the SJHP's used in the 125gr 357 magnum loads that were so effective. It would be interesting to see results compared to bonded bullets.

dkf
10-29-2012, 08:37
I don't blame him for not test any Double Tap loads. He will end up spending around $60 shipped for a 50rd box of ammo and then get it and have some kind of crappy MG or Win JHP loaded in it. It seems you have to blow the owner to get the bullet they advertise.:dunno:

PghJim
10-29-2012, 09:59
I would gladly send him a box.

SCmasterblaster
10-29-2012, 10:54
I think I saw your test of one Corbon load that was a cup and core bullet and I was wondering if you would be willing to test the Double Tap 125gr 357 sig load that uses Seirra bullets. These go 1,500fps out of my 4.5" barrel and I think they would represent the SJHP's used in the 125gr 357 magnum loads that were so effective. It would be interesting to see results compared to bonded bullets.

Maybe not. There is a big difference between the two bullets. The celebrated .357 Magnum bullet has a whole lot of lead exposed, while the .357 Sig bullet has a full-jacket hollow point. I would think that the .357 Magnum bullet would expand a whole lot more. IMHO :cool:

unit1069
10-29-2012, 11:59
Although I carry HST's, I just bought a couple boxes of Underwood just to have them. Makes one wonder why large ammo companies are watering down their 357 sig loads just like they did with the 10mm. It would be great if HST's went above 1,425fps out of a 4" barrel. I can sometimes reach that number with a 4.5 or 5" barrel.

I question the need to hype a given caliber's ammo if lower-pressure/bullet designs produce an excellent self-defense profile, backed up by street cred.

From an earlier post:

After reviewing tnoutdoors' videos the 125-grain HST penetrated 13.25" with .592" expansion and the 125-grain Golden Saber Bonded penetrated 16" with .579" expansion. Both ammos delivered 1" - 1.5" wide stretch cavities of six to seven inches in length.

The hot Underwood ammo lands in the same ballpark as Gold Dot, HST, and Golden Saber even in the stretch cavity. I have no doubt that extra velocity may at times lend some advantage but for self-defense against human beings I can't think of one for .357sig. I'd rather not beat up my Glock with high pressure ammo (even a quality one like Underwood appears to be) unless there's a definite advantage in doing so. And I doubt the major ammo companies don't want to push the liability envelope by increasing pressures when their current products do such a good job.

SCmasterblaster
10-29-2012, 12:04
I question the need to hype a given caliber's ammo if lower-pressure/bullet designs produce an excellent self-defense profile, backed up by street cred.

From an earlier post:



The hot Underwood ammo lands in the same ballpark as Gold Dot, HST, and Golden Saber even in the stretch cavity. I have no doubt that extra velocity may at times lend some advantage but for self-defense against human beings I can't think of one for .357sig. I'd rather not beat up my Glock with high pressure ammo (even a quality one like Underwood appears to be) unless there's a definite advantage in doing so. And I doubt the major ammo companies don't want to push the liability envelope by increasing pressures when their current products do such a good job.

Glock has approved the 9mm +p ammo for use in their pistols. I wonder what they think of the +p+ 9mms?

unit1069
10-29-2012, 12:25
Glock has approved the 9mm +p ammo for use in their pistols. I wonder what they think of the +p+ 9mms?

I don't know of any handgun manufacturers who approve +P+ ammo, probably due to the fact there is no SAAMI standard for that particular ammo pressure. I don't doubt Glocks and other quality handguns are built to withstand higher-than-normal pressures but then we often do read and hear of KABOOM incidents, so it's reasonable for the companies to avoid potential lawsuits.

SCmasterblaster
10-29-2012, 13:16
I don't know of any handgun manufacturers who approve +P+ ammo, probably due to the fact there is no SAAMI standard for that particular ammo pressure. I don't doubt Glocks and other quality handguns are built to withstand higher-than-normal pressures but then we often do read and hear of KABOOM incidents, so it's reasonable for the companies to avoid potential lawsuits.

I wonder how ammo makers even make +p+ cartridges when there is no SAAMI standard. How high do they go?

PghJim
10-29-2012, 13:59
I question the need to hype a given caliber's ammo if lower-pressure/bullet designs produce an excellent self-defense profile, backed up by street cred.


I find it strange you use the word hype. You may want a lower velocity because of a particular bullet design and you can find a good SD load down there. You can also find a good SD load in 40 S&W, so why hype the 10mm. You can probably find a good SD load in 38 Special, so why hype it to a 357 mag. I am not being smart, but the higher velocity creates more energy and that appeals to me.

PghJim
10-29-2012, 14:03
Maybe not. There is a big difference between the two bullets. The celebrated .357 Magnum bullet has a whole lot of lead exposed, while the .357 Sig bullet has a full-jacket hollow point. I would think that the .357 Magnum bullet would expand a whole lot more. IMHO :cool:

That is why I want to see it to see how it performs. In my "backyard" testing they were identical in performance. I think it would be great if a bullet maker made a 125gr SJHP in .355. I do not think there would be an issue with feeding and you would have the exact same load. I can feed new empty cases in most of my 357 sigs, so the lead nose should not be a problem.

unit1069
10-29-2012, 17:54
I find it strange you use the word hype. You may want a lower velocity because of a particular bullet design and you can find a good SD load down there. You can also find a good SD load in 40 S&W, so why hype the 10mm. You can probably find a good SD load in 38 Special, so why hype it to a 357 mag. I am not being smart, but the higher velocity creates more energy and that appeals to me.



I don't believe that increasing velocity (resulting in more energy) is always a preferred method of achieving the desired outcome, which is the quickest cessation of hostilities. It seems to me that the normal premium JHP factory .357sig factory rounds I mentioned do very well on the street as well as in controlled tests. So in my mind I would prefer saving the wear and tear on my Glock than eking out miniscule amounts of "advantage". If anyone thinks more energy is preferable then that's a person's choice and I won't second guess it.

I noticed that in the GATE Self-Defense forum the other day Mas Ayoob mentioned his agency issues a +P ammo for their .45ACP duty weapons but off-duty Mas prefers a standard pressure ammo. I'm not bringing this up as an appeal to authority argument, only to point out that for some calibers it's not always necessary or desirable to hype a well-designed bullet if that caliber/round is doing a great job already.

ABNAK
10-29-2012, 18:09
For civilian CCW, here is my quandry:

I vascilate between theories about handgun rounds....you know, the uber-fast with more recoil but a *possibility* of the extra energy causing more trauma, and obscene bullet deformation to even cross into some fragmentation. Then there's the new wave of almost perfectly expanding bullets (especially HST) that don't require excessive speed to work and therefore are easier and, more importantly, quicker to shoot.

I haven't bought into the temporary stretch cavity/BPW thing 100%, but I do think there's something to it. However, you can't negate the faster follow-up, smoother-on-you-and-the-gun rounds with textbook expansion and penetration.

So, which is it gonna be? Why have a .357 Magnum autoloader clone that has a bullet built to withstand the extremes of velocity? If I want a perfectly expanded .355 bullet with 14" of penetration I'll get a 9mm HST +P 124 or 147gr load and shoot it much quicker.

My point is this: the .357 Magnum SJHP was not built to withstand 1450fps as a perfectly expanded end-result. It morphed into a glob with some fragments spun off into the surrounding tissue. *Possibly* there was also some benefit from the pressure it generated internally. Why build an autoloader version that is made to act like a textbook mushroom and still have to deal with the extra blast/recoil? If you're gonna load it to Magnum velocities then make the bullet similar too (i.e. cup and core, not bonded).

I guess the only reason you'd want a bonded, 1450fps round is for tactical penetration, and I mean car doors and such and not limbs. So that puts it into more of an LEO "needs" category than a CCW one.

PghJim
10-29-2012, 19:29
I don't believe that increasing velocity (resulting in more energy) is always a preferred method of achieving the desired outcome, which is the quickest cessation of hostilities. It seems to me that the normal premium JHP factory .357sig factory rounds I mentioned do very well on the street as well as in controlled tests. So in my mind I would prefer saving the wear and tear on my Glock than eking out miniscule amounts of "advantage". If anyone thinks more energy is preferable then that's a person's choice and I won't second guess it.

I noticed that in the GATE Self-Defense forum the other day Mas Ayoob mentioned his agency issues a +P ammo for their .45ACP duty weapons but off-duty Mas prefers a standard pressure ammo. I'm not bringing this up as an appeal to authority argument, only to point out that for some calibers it's not always necessary or desirable to hype a well-designed bullet if that caliber/round is doing a great job already.

Look, I do not really disagree with you, and your load for SD is just fine. Although I ordered two boxes of Underwood 357 sig, I will still carrry HST's. I doubt you will wear out your Glock and in reality I can shoot 1,500fps 125gr rounds about as good as I can shoot 1,400fps rounds. I like to see calibers being stretched to see what they can do. Also, remember that your are only thinking of Self Defense, I am not.

Tiro Fijo
10-29-2012, 19:52
My own personal opinion is that once the .357 SIG 125 gr. bullets hits 1350 fps all is well and arguing whether 100 to 200 fps more is better is like arguing over how many angels can dance on a pinhead as in the grand scheme of things it won't matter one whit. I would use either one and never lose a wink of sleep. :cool:

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 07:29
My own personal opinion is that once the .357 SIG 125 gr. bullets hits 1350 fps all is well and arguing whether 100 to 200 fps more is better is like arguing over how many angels can dance on a pinhead as in the grand scheme of things it won't matter one whit. I would use either one and never lose a wink of sleep. :cool:

So true. A 125gr .357 gr JHP at 1350 FPS can be relied on for just about anything short of a charging elephant!

PghJim
10-30-2012, 07:50
So true. A 125gr .357 gr JHP at 1350 FPS can be relied on for just about anything short of a charging elephant!

Heck, Underwoods 9mm, 124gr +p+ almost reaches that. Based on many things where only few have to do with SD, I would like 1,450fps out of a 125gr 357sig in a 4" barrel. In your logic, there would never be a need for full power 10mm, when a good 40 S&W can be relied on for just about anything short of a charging elephant.

Scoob
10-30-2012, 08:04
I don't think 357 sig is watered down in factory loads. manufacturers aren't going to load cartidges to the hilt for mass production, it would't make sense. If you consider that watered down then all the other cartridges are watered down as well. All cartridges have considerable headroom above the "standard" loads.

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 09:05
Heck, Underwoods 9mm, 124gr +p+ almost reaches that. Based on many things where only few have to do with SD, I would like 1,450fps out of a 125gr 357sig in a 4" barrel. In your logic, there would never be a need for full power 10mm, when a good 40 S&W can be relied on for just about anything short of a charging elephant.

That's good, even though there aren't any elephants here in VT. :cool:

PghJim
10-30-2012, 10:56
I don't think 357 sig is watered down in factory loads. manufacturers aren't going to load cartidges to the hilt for mass production, it would't make sense. If you consider that watered down then all the other cartridges are watered down as well. All cartridges have considerable headroom above the "standard" loads.

There is plenty of room above what 1,350fps they could go without going to the hilt. It maybe safety driven, or let's say lawyer driven to water it down. If you look at the 44 and 357 magnums from 1970's. They also have been watered down by many manufacturers. I believe the 10mm is the biggest example of underloading and maximum loads can be made well within safe pressures.

They can sell 357 sig at <1,350fps if they choose. There is always, Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, etc,, or even reloading. The only thing is that I wish others had access to HST and Ranger Bullets to see what they would do at higher velocities. You have to understand that I shoot the 500 S&W at full power for fun and hunting, so it seems laughable to be worried about raising 357sig velocities within the allowed pressure envelop. I would bet that most major manufacturers load to 35,000psi and never get close to 40,000 or above.

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 11:07
There is plenty of room above what 1,350fps they could go without going to the hilt. It maybe safety driven, or let's say lawyer driven to water it down. If you look at the 44 and 357 magnums from 1970's. They also have been watered down by many manufacturers. I believe the 10mm is the biggest example of underloading and maximum loads can be made well within safe pressures.

They can sell 357 sig at <1,350fps if they choose. There is always, Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, etc,, or even reloading. The only thing is that I wish others had access to HST and Ranger Bullets to see what they would do at higher velocities. You have to understand that I shoot the 500 S&W at full power for fun and hunting, so it seems laughable to be worried about raising 357sig velocities within the allowed pressure envelop. I would bet that most major manufacturers load to 35,000psi and never get close to 40,000 or above.

It's true. The 10mm has been down-loaded for years. And what for - to make it equal to the much-weaker .40S&W? I think that the Glock 20 and other offerings can handle to full 10mm loads.

unit1069
10-30-2012, 11:08
So true. A 125gr .357 gr JHP at 1350 FPS can be relied on for just about anything short of a charging elephant!

Heck, Underwoods 9mm, 124gr +p+ almost reaches that.

If Underwood is going to push its 9mm ammo to .357sig velocities why don't they use .357sig Gold Dots in their 9mm +P+ ammo?

This is part of the larger point I've been trying to make; it's the caliber/gun/ammo combination that works as designed and not tweaking something that doesn't need tweaking to begin with.

I CCW my 9mm sub-compact with 124-grain HST +P (along with a handful of other quality rounds) a lot more than my .357sig and I have no intention of trying to make my 9mm into an imitation .357sig.

PghJim
10-30-2012, 11:14
If Underwood is going to push its 9mm ammo to .357sig velocities why don't they use .357sig Gold Dots in their 9mm +P+ ammo?

This is part of the larger point I've been trying to make; it's the caliber/gun/ammo combination that works as designed and not tweaking something that doesn't need tweaking to begin with.

I CCW my 9mm sub-compact with 124-grain HST +P (along with a handful of other quality rounds) a lot more than my .357sig and I have no intention of trying to make my 9mm into an imitation .357sig.

In TNoutdoors9 test of the Underwood 124 grain +p+ there was no failure of the bullet. Underwood sells slower options for those who want them, but it is nice to have a choice.

I also carry a Kahr PM9 with a 3" barrel. It is nice that I can now carry ammo that will give me out of the muzzle of the 3" gun, what I would be getting normally out of a 4" gun.

Tiro Fijo
10-30-2012, 11:51
...The only thing is that I wish others had access to HST and Ranger Bullets to see what they would do at higher velocities...



Why not pull the bullets on a few loaded rounds and handload 'em? That would be interesting. I'd wager their performance will almost mimic the Gold Dot in the Underwood loads.

PghJim
10-30-2012, 12:53
Why not pull the bullets on a few loaded rounds and handload 'em? That would be interesting. I'd wager their performance will almost mimic the Gold Dot in the Underwood loads.

It would be a nice thing for someone to try.

unit1069
10-30-2012, 15:02
In TNoutdoors9 test of the Underwood 124 grain +p+ there was no failure of the bullet. Underwood sells slower options for those who want them, but it is nice to have a choice.

I also carry a Kahr PM9 with a 3" barrel. It is nice that I can now carry ammo that will give me out of the muzzle of the 3" gun, what I would be getting normally out of a 4" gun.

It is nice to have a choice, it's just that I'm wary of pushing things too far. Besides the KABOOM worries of overpressure rounds here's something straight from Speer:

The Speer 357 Sig load data for the 6 petal bullet (Part 4360) is attached. Velocity range is from about 1200fps to 1437 fps

So with one test in simulated gel the .357sig Gold Dot held together well, but who's to say the next round at the average velocity of 1511 fps would also? I'm not sure of what Speer's velocity range is for their 9mm 124-grain bullet.

SCmasterblaster
10-31-2012, 09:50
In TNoutdoors9 test of the Underwood 124 grain +p+ there was no failure of the bullet. Underwood sells slower options for those who want them, but it is nice to have a choice.

I also carry a Kahr PM9 with a 3" barrel. It is nice that I can now carry ammo that will give me out of the muzzle of the 3" gun, what I would be getting normally out of a 4" gun.

Kahr PM9 - a great carry gun. :cool:

spcwes
10-31-2012, 11:18
Yes!!! I have two boxes of this "improved" stuff waiting to be shot.

> 1500fps is mindboggling! That is what the 357Sig should be loaded to.

For those folks that speculated that those velocities would be above the Gold Dot's window for integrity, well, guess not.

Me likey!

We went above and beyond those velocities for that round with the early lots of Double Tap stuff. I even had posted testing and velocities on this site at one time. With a jarvis drop in barrel in a Glock 35 we pushed the round to a little over 1600fps.

Also IIRC the round used was the 124gr 9mm round which was rated at a much lower velocity. The actual hollow point flattened out and looked like a jagged fat dime but retained over 90% of its weight every shot and went well over 12" deep. Gold Dot hollow points in my personal opinion are one of the best well rounded designs for HP in our time.

Seeing that speer has a factor loading that is pushing 1500fps from a Glock 31 and a posted 1475fps from a 4" test barrel I knew it was only a matter of time before we started pushing the velocity limits again. Very nice to see these numbers out of a Glock 32 though, that is exciting to say the least.

spcwes
10-31-2012, 11:41
Those agencies don't shoot a lot of people.

Texas DPS, Mississippi and New Mexico State Police actually do shoot a decent amount of people yearly, the info is available and can be looked up.

cowboy1964
10-31-2012, 11:48
So true. A 125gr .357 gr JHP at 1350 FPS can be relied on for just about anything short of a charging elephant!

Would you seriously feel comfortable with a 1350fps .357 Sig in, say, Alaska? I don't think I would. Especially not with a JHP.

SCmasterblaster
10-31-2012, 13:06
Would you seriously feel comfortable with a 1350fps .357 Sig in, say, Alaska? I don't think I would. Especially not with a JHP.

In Alaska, I would feel slightly under-gunned with my 6-inch S&W M629 .44 Magnum. :shocked:

WiskyT
10-31-2012, 13:51
Texas DPS, Mississippi and New Mexico State Police actually do shoot a decent amount of people yearly, the info is available and can be looked up.

I searched and couldn't find anything before I posted what I did. Highway patrol shootings are few and far between.

SCmasterblaster
11-01-2012, 13:23
I searched and couldn't find anything before I posted what I did. Highway patrol shootings are few and far between.

That is good that Highway Patrolmen do not have a lot of shootings. Their jobs are hazardous enough as it is. :upeyes:

spcwes
11-05-2012, 08:28
I searched and couldn't find anything before I posted what I did. Highway patrol shootings are few and far between.

Not sure what you consider few and far between but if you look at an agency like Dallas PD they shot 19 people last year and I think about 50% were fatal. IIRC the above agencies produced about 12-15 on average but not sure where I read it. Not what I would consider few and far between.

Having 12-15 people each year attempt to murder police officers per agency is enough by anyones standards. Also statistics (yes statistics I know) show that almost 80% of all crime is mobile at some point in its commission meaning in a vehicle and that is who HP deal with almost exclusively.

SCmasterblaster
11-05-2012, 09:03
Not sure what you consider few and far between but if you look at an agency like Dallas PD they shot 19 people last year and I think about 50% were fatal. IIRC the above agencies produced about 12-15 on average but not sure where I read it. Not what I would consider few and far between.

Having 12-15 people each year attempt to murder police officers per agency is enough by anyones standards. Also statistics (yes statistics I know) show that almost 80% of all crime is mobile at some point in its commission meaning in a vehicle and that is who HP deal with almost exclusively.

How many of those Dallas PD shootings were one-shot stops?

WiskyT
11-05-2012, 14:55
Not sure what you consider few and far between but if you look at an agency like Dallas PD they shot 19 people last year and I think about 50% were fatal. IIRC the above agencies produced about 12-15 on average but not sure where I read it. Not what I would consider few and far between.

Having 12-15 people each year attempt to murder police officers per agency is enough by anyones standards. Also statistics (yes statistics I know) show that almost 80% of all crime is mobile at some point in its commission meaning in a vehicle and that is who HP deal with almost exclusively.

12 shootings a year is 12 too many. It is not enough to be considered "a lot" regarding ammunition selection. Southern California probably shoots that many people in a week. Further, I doubt most Highway Patrol agencies shoot 12 people a year.

SCmasterblaster
11-05-2012, 15:22
12 shootings a year is 12 too many. It is not enough to be considered "a lot" regarding ammunition selection. Southern California probably shoots that many people in a week. Further, I doubt most Highway Patrol agencies shoot 12 people a year.

I think that you are correct about that.