Truth will out - "The Bell Curve" lives [Archive] - Glock Talk

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railfancwb
10-15-2012, 20:29
Politically incorrect is not the same as wrong. A book entitled "The Bell Curve" was widely condemned because it made politically incorrect statements related to race and IQ. Now comes the Florida State Board of Education officially making essentially the same statements as part of its testing requirements.

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/10/12/florida-passes-plan-for-racially-based-academic-goals/

And they are receiving the same condemnations vented upon the book and its authors.

devildog2067
10-15-2012, 20:44
a) That's not at all what "The Bell Curve" was about
b) 'Truth will out' doesn't make any sense at all

GVFlyer
10-15-2012, 20:56
I read Herrnstein and Murray; it was an academic rather than a political endeavor. You need to be careful when assuming their intentions in writing The Bell Curve.

railfancwb
10-15-2012, 21:01
I read Herrnstein and Murray; it was an academic rather than a political endeavor. You need to be careful when assuming their intentions in writing The Bell Curve.

Agreed. They didn't make it political, others did. But the facts which they presented stubbornly remain facts.

Geko45
10-15-2012, 21:21
left tail test...

airmotive
10-16-2012, 03:18
a) That's not at all what "The Bell Curve" was about
b) 'Truth will out' doesn't make any sense at all

Perhaps "will" was supposed to be capitolized as a proper noun? Some guy named William is going to be outed by the truth, methinks. Let's face it; we ALL kinda knew Will was gay. The Bell Curve proves it.

frizz
10-16-2012, 03:45
:upeyes:

"Truth will out" is Shakespeare.

Gallium
10-16-2012, 04:31
Politically incorrect is not the same as wrong. A book entitled "The Bell Curve" was widely condemned because it made politically incorrect statements related to race and IQ. Now comes the Florida State Board of Education officially making essentially the same statements as part of its testing requirements.

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/10/12/florida-passes-plan-for-racially-based-academic-goals/

And they are receiving the same condemnations vented upon the book and its authors.

There is a lot more to your fanciful wishes than space or time or care allows me to expound on. How about you attempt to educate YOURSELF first, before trying to feel better about yourself by looking down on others?

eracer
10-16-2012, 04:47
If I was an intelligent young black man, I'd be jumping for joy, knowing that I was going to get better grades than my white classmates while doing the same amount of work, and testing at the same level.

frizz
10-16-2012, 05:05
If I was an intelligent young black man, I'd be jumping for joy, knowing that I was going to get better grades than my white classmates while doing the same amount of work, and testing at the same level.
This has nothing to do with grades. It isn't even an individual thing.

You don't understand the fundamental issue.

gwalchmai
10-16-2012, 05:15
This has nothing to do with grades. It isn't even an individual thing.

You don't understand the fundamental issue.What is the fundamental issue?

Bren
10-16-2012, 05:32
Politically incorrect is not the same as wrong. A book entitled "The Bell Curve" was widely condemned because it made politically incorrect statements related to race and IQ.

Best I recall, however, The Bell Curve conclusions about race and IQ were condemend because people didn't want them to be true and it was bad - not because it was incorrect. There was a wealth of evidence of racial differences in IQ for decades before the Bell Curve and those 2 weren't the first sociologists to be condemend for pointing it out, even when relying on secondary research. So the irony is that Florida may have tailored a policy to reality that will not be acceptable because it requires people to accept reality.

Gallium
10-16-2012, 05:42
...Now comes the Florida State Board of Education officially making essentially the same statements as part of its testing requirements.
...


Here is your wake up call.. FS Board of Ed does not make that statement. This is something you conjured up to support your perspective.

The reality is, black kids graduate HS at dismal rates. Hispanics fare a little better, Indian (India) and Oriental kids a lot better.

There is a country in the Caribbean with a population that is 90+ % black, and it's literacy rate is above that of the USA, Canada, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Iceland, Switzerland, Denmark, Spain, China, Japan, S. Korea, India, Hungary, Australia, Belgium....etc.

They are consistently rated at between #4<>#12 depending on which charts you look at.


http://world.bymap.org/LiteracyRates.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate


How did Barbados manage to make you look like a fool? In 1834 when everyone else in the British Empire was figuring out what to with the soon to be emancipated slaves, those darkies in Barbados were taking advantage of the "superb educational system" in place there.

Fast forward to today, they are, in comparison to places like the USA that had 100+ years of entrenched systematic policies and laws at federal, state and local levels discriminating against, and prejudicial to "minorities" (some groups more than others), their society has been able to produce a greater pool (%) of folks ready to integrate into society.


But hey, stock up on stupid. It is after all your right. :)

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 06:02
If I was an intelligent young black man, I'd be jumping for joy, knowing that I was going to get better grades than my white classmates while doing the same amount of work, and testing at the same level.

And that you are better looking, good at basketball, sing better, and all the White women want to sleep with you.

You can also go free to any college, get several high salary cushy job offers to pick from, and your children will all grow up to be President.

You've got it made brother!

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 06:07
Best I recall, however, The Bell Curve conclusions about race and IQ were condemend because people didn't want them to be true and it was bad - not because it was incorrect. There was a wealth of evidence of racial differences in IQ for decades before the Bell Curve and those 2 weren't the first sociologists to be condemend for pointing it out, even when relying on secondary research. So the irony is that Florida may have tailored a policy to reality that will not be acceptable because it requires people to accept reality.
Do you really think high IQ is needed to graduate from high school? Or is it more a matter of turning in a half dozen homework assignments and showing up for class once in a while?

I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person could relate HS graduation rates to IQ.

walt cowan
10-16-2012, 06:09
:upeyes:

"Truth will out" is Shakespeare.

damm, beat me to it.:supergrin::wavey:

walt cowan
10-16-2012, 06:12
Do you really think high IQ is needed to graduate from high school? Or is it more a matter of turning in a half dozen homework assignments and showing up for class once in a while?

I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person could relate HS graduation rates to IQ.

same thing for phd's.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 06:18
same thing for phd's.

True that.

Just freaking make the changes the prof suggested, and get on with your life :)

Mrs.Cicero
10-16-2012, 06:22
The Florida board screwed up. Instead of stating separate goals defined by race, it should have done one of two things - separate goals defined by socioeconomic status, (so the Occupiers could scream about the downtrodden poor), or the smarter route, which would have been to say they want to increase the literacy rate/academic perfomance by the same percentage (say 5% per year) of every group they track, until they all reach 100%, thus satisfying the whole "equality" thing. Who could have argued with that? And it would have been THE SAME PLAN.

Because you know it's all in the spin, in this culture.

Iron bottom
10-16-2012, 06:28
I had completely forgotten about Barbados. The leader in space exploration, the leader in agriculture, the leader in computer design and software, the leader in communications. I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore anyone.

Gallium
10-16-2012, 07:18
I had completely forgotten about Barbados. The leader in space exploration, the leader in agriculture, the leader in computer design and software, the leader in communications. I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore anyone.


If this was a thread about those things Mr. Above Average IQ, then maybe your comment would have some relevance.

We are talking about high school education, and someone is trying to drag IQ into the equation.

:wavey:

Z71bill
10-16-2012, 07:43
Just MY opinion --

The Florida State Board of Education's new system has NOTHING to do with evaluating kids. :shocked:

They are concerned that the TEACHERS will be rated poorly if a large % of the students don't "make the grade".

So this is just a way to lower the bar - FOR THE TEACHERS.

Set the bar low enough and any one can jump over it.

Is 70% of kids being able to read a WIN? It is if the acceptable standard was set at 60%.

------------------

But any way -- don't forget to include - THROUGH NO FAULT OF THIER OWN - in any discussion about lack of achievement in any protected class of people - it makes it politically correct because then you are blaming someone else.

Iron bottom
10-16-2012, 08:35
Go down to the bottom of that list and read the fine print, Mr Blue Bottle Fly. "The ability to read and write at a specified age." I wonder why the specified age was not included in this list. Was it 8 yrs.? 28 yrs.? "There are no universal standards." WTF?

dango
10-16-2012, 08:52
:upeyes:

"Truth will out" is Shakespeare.

So's , you mean yon , txuxt and hither ...............?

devildog2067
10-16-2012, 08:54
:upeyes:

"Truth will out" is Shakespeare.

Huh, so it is. I guess I don't read enough classical plays. Never did make it all the way through Merchant of Venice.

hamster
10-16-2012, 09:01
I read the Bell Curve when it first came out. The problem that I had with it was the fact that most readers don't understand enough about statistics to make any sense of it.

The book neglected to point out the fact that there was significantly more IQ variation within racial groups than between them. Furthermore the book neglected the transplant effect, where children from one racial group are adopted at an early age by another.

The book implied racial differences when there was no evidence in the data provided. If anything there could be an argument made for cultural differences leading to differences in testing.

As it was written, the book was not much better than Anthropometry. (Look it up)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropometry

Happypuppy
10-16-2012, 09:37
Sometimes I think you do have to cut the teachers some slack. A lot of the do good programs make generalizations. A example are metrics based systems. The failure are in the assumptions, and some pretty basic ones:
1. The kids want to be there
2. They all are close to the same intelligence
3. They are not using any or at least minimal recreational drugs that effect ability to learn.

If I were King....err on the School Board , I would push to allow dropouts to leave at 16 if they wish and go back to the use of the Technical High School. Not all jobs are created the same and learning Sociology will not help me as much as another class if I want to be a HVAC Tech.




Sent via Messenger Pigeon

MtBaldy
10-16-2012, 10:11
I read the Bell Curve when it first came out. ]

Either you just didn't understand it or you need to read it again. Or you just didn't read it at all and just read liberal criticisms of it.