Is there a +P, 180 gr, 40 S&W, Bonded, JHP ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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flw
10-15-2012, 21:27
Please note I do not reload.

As the title states my question, I have looked at Gander Mnt, some local gun stores and not found any. Since that doesn't mean they don't exist, I thought I'd ask.

Who makes a +P (or +P+), 180 or 165 gr,40 S&W Bonded, JHP ?

Then where can I pick some up from?

Thank you for your time.

dkf
10-15-2012, 21:51
SAAMI does not recognize a +P or +P+ designation in .40sw. The .40 ammo you do see that says .40+P is basically made up by the boutique ammo maker to designate a hot load. Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and some others sell ammo loaded hot (at or near max pressure) with bonded bullets. The bonded bullet in those loads is usually the Speer Gold Dot.

MAC702
10-15-2012, 21:55
The .38 +P, 9mm +P, and .45 +P loads that you see are because modern guns are much stronger than these very old cartridges were originally designed for.

The .40 is already a modern cartridge designed for modern guns. No +P is necessary, nor would it be a good thing.

If you see one, it is a far less "extra" than you would get from a +P loading in one of the older cartridges, and mostly just marketing.

Trigger Finger
10-15-2012, 22:11
Underwood Ammo has 40 Cal ammunition that is listed as +P. They have 135, 155, 165 and 180 grain loads that are all listed as +P.

I like the 165 grain Bonded Hollow Point +P, listed at 1200 fps. It feels pretty hot. I don't know if it is truly +P loadings or not but it works great in my G27. I only fire about 300 to 350 rounds a year of this ammo.

http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw.aspx

NEOH212
10-15-2012, 23:34
Is there a +P, 180 gr, 40 S&W, Bonded, JHP ?

Yes, it's called the 10mm!

:wavey:

MAC702
10-16-2012, 00:53
...I like the 165 grain Bonded Hollow Point +P, listed at 1200 fps. ...

Only 25 FPS faster (within rounding range) of Hornady 165-grain Critical Defense, listed at 1175 FPS.

vafish
10-16-2012, 05:48
Underwood Ammo has 40 Cal ammunition that is listed as +P. They have 135, 155, 165 and 180 grain loads that are all listed as +P.

I like the 165 grain Bonded Hollow Point +P, listed at 1200 fps. It feels pretty hot. I don't know if it is truly +P loadings or not but it works great in my G27. I only fire about 300 to 350 rounds a year of this ammo.

http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw.aspx

It's not +p because saami doesn't have a standard for +p .40

So either Underwood is loading to pressures above saami limits to which your gun was designed, or, they are lying to you and using +p as marketing hype.

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cowboy1964
10-16-2012, 06:12
It's not +p because saami doesn't have a standard for +p .40

So either Underwood is loading to pressures above saami limits to which your gun was designed, or, they are lying to you and using +p as marketing hype.

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So then +P+ in 9mm is a lie too, right? Same situation.

Scoob
10-16-2012, 06:14
As said some companies have taken to adding a +p to cartridges that have no +p rating. I've seen this on .40, 10mm, .380 and a few others. I seriously doubt they are loading above limits. That would be reckless and dangerous.

Scoob
10-16-2012, 06:35
So then +P+ in 9mm is a lie too, right? Same situation.

You have a point. I just assume that they are within pressure since they don't exceed some of the max listed handloads but who knows.

SDGlock23
10-16-2012, 07:35
I would say Underwoods is the best bet for the more powerful than factory ammo. As others have said, either they are loading beyond saami spec of 35K PSI or it's just used to differentiate it from "regular" .40 ammo, but the +P rating does make one wonder. It is fully possible to get what would roughly equal +P performance without actually going over pressure, it's called slow burning powder. To use the .40 as an example, with a Glock 35 it's easy as cake to get to and over 1200 fps with 180gr bullet, just have to use the right powder, and it's not over pressure. 155's around 1400 fps, etc.

I will say this... I no longer own a 10mm since the .40 is good enough, but as I was dismantling some of my 10mm ammo, I decided to keep the Gold Dot bullets from my boxes of Underwoods ammo so I can later use them in my .40's. Pulled the bullets and curiosity got the best of me and I just had to weigh the powder charge (Underwoods 180gr Gold Dot 10mm). I'm not a reloading noob and I can tell you with certainly the powder used was 800x, no doubt about it...and at least 9.5gr of it. Look up what book max is.

I have for sometime wondered about the saami spec of 35K psi for the .40. The 10mm is rated at 37.5K psi yet it's no real secret that the .40 has a stronger case than the 10mm. There's only 2.5K psi difference, one would think with it's stronger case the .40 should easily handle that. In addition, the 357 Sig is rated for 40K. I don't think it's any thicker in the web than the .40, so why isn't the .40 rated for 40K too, since they're essentially the same?

Merkavaboy
10-16-2012, 08:29
So then +P+ in 9mm is a lie too, right? Same situation.

Aww, come on now Cowboy, we know that you know better than this...
:wavey:

Merkavaboy
10-16-2012, 08:39
As said some companies have taken to adding a +p to cartridges that have no +p rating. I've seen this on .40, 10mm, .380 and a few others. I seriously doubt they are loading above limits. That would be reckless and dangerous.

And we know that these companies are blatantly lying about such products. These are the companies you don't walk but RUN AWAY from because they are pushing the envelope on such cartridges and all it takes is for some nimrod to buy their 380+P ammo and try using it in some old Beretta or cheap pot-metal Lorcin and wind up blowing their hands off.

GIockGuy24
10-16-2012, 10:20
I would say Underwoods is the best bet for the more powerful than factory ammo. As others have said, either they are loading beyond saami spec of 35K PSI or it's just used to differentiate it from "regular" .40 ammo, but the +P rating does make one wonder. It is fully possible to get what would roughly equal +P performance without actually going over pressure, it's called slow burning powder. To use the .40 as an example, with a Glock 35 it's easy as cake to get to and over 1200 fps with 180gr bullet, just have to use the right powder, and it's not over pressure. 155's around 1400 fps, etc.

I will say this... I no longer own a 10mm since the .40 is good enough, but as I was dismantling some of my 10mm ammo, I decided to keep the Gold Dot bullets from my boxes of Underwoods ammo so I can later use them in my .40's. Pulled the bullets and curiosity got the best of me and I just had to weigh the powder charge (Underwoods 180gr Gold Dot 10mm). I'm not a reloading noob and I can tell you with certainly the powder used was 800x, no doubt about it...and at least 9.5gr of it. Look up what book max is.

I have for sometime wondered about the saami spec of 35K psi for the .40. The 10mm is rated at 37.5K psi yet it's no real secret that the .40 has a stronger case than the 10mm. There's only 2.5K psi difference, one would think with it's stronger case the .40 should easily handle that. In addition, the 357 Sig is rated for 40K. I don't think it's any thicker in the web than the .40, so why isn't the .40 rated for 40K too, since they're essentially the same?

The 40 S&W SAAMI specs, submitted by Winchester, call for a thinner case with slightly more case capacity but a weaker case than used today. Federal used a "soft" brass and suffered more bullet set back than most. This, combined with the "large" chambers in Glock pistols, often resulted in case failures. Federal recalled their 40 S&W ammunition and beefed up the case to a heavier, stronger design. The other American ammunition companies soon followed. The SAAMI specs remain the same though. Today most 40 S&W cases are about as thick and strong as 357 Sig cases. Newer powders allow higher velocities while staying within the pressure limits these days.

SJ 40
10-16-2012, 10:33
Yes, it's called the 10mm!

:wavey:Best answer ! :rofl: SJ 40

SDGlock23
10-16-2012, 11:03
The 40 S&W SAAMI specs, submitted by Winchester, call for a thinner case with slightly more case capacity but a weaker case than used today. Federal used a "soft" brass and suffered more bullet set back than most. This, combined with the "large" chambers in Glock pistols, often resulted in case failures. Federal recalled their 40 S&W ammunition and beefed up the case to a heavier, stronger design. The other American ammunition companies soon followed. The SAAMI specs remain the same though. Today most 40 S&W cases are about as thick and strong as 357 Sig cases. Newer powders allow higher velocities while staying within the pressure limits these days.

I kind of figured they were about the same. I'm glad the .40 and 357 use small pistol primers, I think the use of large primers is the weak spot with 10mm.

vafish
10-16-2012, 14:27
So then +P+ in 9mm is a lie too, right? Same situation.

No, +p+ is a sammi authorized designation for pressure levels above saami limits in the 9mm and .38 special.

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dkf
10-16-2012, 14:38
No, +p+ is a sammi authorized designation for pressure levels above saami limits in the 9mm and .38 special.

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Have any info from SAAMI that supports that?

oldman11
10-16-2012, 14:47
Yes, it's called the 10mm!

:wavey:
+1 :supergrin:

MAC702
10-16-2012, 15:07
Yes, it's called the 10mm!

:wavey:

This only works in a S&W M610, since I know of no other guns designed to fire both cartridges interchangeably.

But then I would say the .40 is a "special" version of the 10mm anyway.

MAC702
10-16-2012, 15:08
No, +p+ is a sammi authorized designation for pressure levels above saami limits in the 9mm and .38 special...

Are you confusing +P+ with standard +P?

SCmasterblaster
10-16-2012, 18:56
SAAMI does not recognize a +P or +P+ designation in .40sw. The .40 ammo you do see that says .40+P is basically made up by the boutique ammo maker to designate a hot load. Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and some others sell ammo loaded hot (at or near max pressure) with bonded bullets. The bonded bullet in those loads is usually the Speer Gold Dot.

How interesting . . . .

noway
10-18-2012, 21:40
1st

Their's no +p+ sepc for any caliber. +p+ is hypr or marketing or warning to say the ammo is above +p


2nd saying the modrn 40sw case is stronger so it should be able to handle 37K psi or similar or more than the 10mm, remember for that 40sw case to be stronger, it has thicker webbing and/or wall which reduces the case capacity.


If your going to handload, load all ammo to the box max and in small increments. I higher doubt if you loaded anything a gr over the max is really go to gain you anything.

What do you think, 4-20fps of more velocity in a higher than spec load is going to make that much difference and when it compares to the risk to the ammo and gun due to the overly high pressure ?

vafish
10-18-2012, 21:51
Are you confusing +P+ with standard +P?

No I am not.

Saami max pressure level for .38 Special is 17,000 PSI. .38 Special +P is 18,500 PSI. .38 Special +P+ is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be. For the 9MM Standard is 35,000 PSI, +P is 38,500 PSI and +P+ is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be.

SAAMI is a voluntary organization, members join and agree to follow SAAMI limits. Back in the 1970's and 1980's police wanted more power from their .38's but they didn't want to give their officers .357 mags. So the some of the SAAMI member companies petitions SAAMI to allow them to load over the +P level for modern police handguns. SAAMI came up with the +P+ designation for the .38 Special and 9MM so member companies could load to higher pressures for police contracts.

SouthernBoyVA
10-19-2012, 06:01
So then +P+ in 9mm is a lie too, right? Same situation.

No. For example, the Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ RA9TA load comes in at 42,000 psi. That is roughly 5,500 psi over NATO specs for the 9mm.

cowboy1964
10-19-2012, 07:44
I wonder if Underwood does actual chamber pressure measurement testing?

dwhite53
10-20-2012, 05:55
I will say this... I no longer own a 10mm since the .40 is good enough, but as I was dismantling some of my 10mm ammo, I decided to keep the Gold Dot bullets from my boxes of Underwoods ammo so I can later use them in my .40's. Pulled the bullets and curiosity got the best of me and I just had to weigh the powder charge (Underwoods 180gr Gold Dot 10mm). I'm not a reloading noob and I can tell you with certainly the powder used was 800x, no doubt about it...and at least 9.5gr of it. Look up what book max is. ?

Slow burning powder helps get the velocity up however performance drops off with shorter barrels. Shorter barrel doesn't have enough length to get a complete burn of the powder.

Hodgdon Powder uses a 10 in barrel for testing their 296 powder. Gives really impressive numbers with magnum calibers. However, , from what I've read, run these loads through a 4 or 6 inch barrel and the velocity drops of pretty dramatically.

So, at what optimum barrel length would the Underwood ammo give you a performance boost? What barrel length do they do testing to get their numbers. Have other people duplicated this in their own guns? I'll bet in a twelve inch barrel it'd be really impressive, especially if they're loading 800X.

All the Best,
D. White

wanderinwalker
10-20-2012, 06:59
Slow burning powder helps get the velocity up however performance drops off with shorter barrels. Shorter barrel doesn't have enough length to get a complete burn of the powder.

Hodgdon Powder uses a 10 in barrel for testing their 296 powder. Gives really impressive numbers with magnum calibers. However, , from what I've read, run these loads through a 4 or 6 inch barrel and the velocity drops of pretty dramatically.

So, at what optimum barrel length would the Underwood ammo give you a performance boost? What barrel length do they do testing to get their numbers. Have other people duplicated this in their own guns? I'll bet in a twelve inch barrel it'd be really impressive, especially if they're loading 800X.

All the Best,
D. White

But you're still getting more speed burning the slowest powder that can reach proper operating pressure in a given caliber with ANY barrel length of that caliber. The data given in my Hodgdon book is for a 10" barrel in .357, so yes, you will see a performance reduction in a shorter barrel. But the relationship between which powders produce the most performance doesn't change.

The 9mm and .38 +P don't magically "beat" short barreled .357s, because the .357 is still burning more powder and getting more speed. And conversely, throw fast-powder loads through a carbine-length barrel and the gains are smaller than you'll see using more, slower burning powder.

As for +P and +P+ designations, it was my understanding that .38 Special +P+ should really only be used in .357 Magnum chambered revolvers. I seem to recall reading somewhere these loads were for departments/localities that wanted .357 Magnum performance without the PR of using the "Magnum". And I have a few boxes of the Winchester 127gr +P+ 9mm Luger, right on the side is the warning to use only in new firearms in good condition, with a note the chamber pressure may be in excess of 40k PSI.

SDGlock23
10-20-2012, 09:45
Slow burning powder helps get the velocity up however performance drops off with shorter barrels. Shorter barrel doesn't have enough length to get a complete burn of the powder.

Hodgdon Powder uses a 10 in barrel for testing their 296 powder. Gives really impressive numbers with magnum calibers. However, , from what I've read, run these loads through a 4 or 6 inch barrel and the velocity drops of pretty dramatically.

So, at what optimum barrel length would the Underwood ammo give you a performance boost? What barrel length do they do testing to get their numbers. Have other people duplicated this in their own guns? I'll bet in a twelve inch barrel it'd be really impressive, especially if they're loading 800X.

All the Best,
D. White

Hodgdon uses a rather long barrel for their magnum rounds, this is true. They do use a 10" barrel for the .357 Magnum. I have noticed this in the past, as I load for the 454 Casull too, and they test theirs out of a 9.375" barrel....odd.

It does make a difference when shot in a shorter barrel. In my SP101 .357 Mag 3" barrel, 19gr of H110 (same as W296) and a 140gr XTP got me about 1250 fps, although Hodgdon claims over 1750 fps, that's a loss of 500 fps in 7" of barrel.

Heavier bullets aren't as affected by barrel length as lighter bullets, and an example here is a max load of Lil'Gun with a 180gr XTP out of my 6" Ruger GP100 .357. It ran around 1325 average in the GP100, while Hodgdon claims around 1400 fps out of their 10" test barrel. About a 75 fps loss with 4" less barrel. If it were a lighter bullet I would expect more velocity loss.

In the case of Underwoods ammo, it's faster all the way around no matter the barrel length. It won't matter what platform, you will see an improvement in speed, it's just that you will see more as the barrel gets longer, which is to be expected. And slower burning powders take advantage of that extra barrel length better than faster burning powders, which may not see much improvement at all.

I think Underwoods uses the Glock 20 for their test platform in 10mm, I'm not sure what they uses for the others really. I would assume it's 5" or less in the .45 ACP and probably 4-4.5" for the 9mm and .40 S&W.

SCmasterblaster
10-20-2012, 12:26
No. For example, the Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ RA9TA load comes in at 42,000 psi. That is roughly 5,500 psi over NATO specs for the 9mm.

I use the Winchester +p+ 115gr JHP. I wonder what the pressure is in this round?

SouthernBoyVA
10-20-2012, 16:24
I use the Winchester +p+ 115gr JHP. I wonder what the pressure is in this round?

I don't know but I also have some of that in my ammo safe.

FatBoy
10-20-2012, 22:05
No I am not.

Saami max pressure level for .38 Special is 17,000 PSI. .38 Special +P is 18,500 PSI. .38 Special +P+ is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be. For the 9MM Standard is 35,000 PSI, +P is 38,500 PSI and +P+ is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be.

SAAMI is a voluntary organization, members join and agree to follow SAAMI limits. Back in the 1970's and 1980's police wanted more power from their .38's but they didn't want to give their officers .357 mags. So the some of the SAAMI member companies petitions SAAMI to allow them to load over the +P level for modern police handguns. SAAMI came up with the +P+ designation for the .38 Special and 9MM so member companies could load to higher pressures for police contracts.

I am not saying you are wrong, but do you have a link from SAMMI for that. The "newest" book for sale on SAMMI doesn't have any reference of +p+. I have it, although it is from 1993.

Free PDF format can be found here, for those who are interested... http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

For disclosure, I used Fed 9BPLE (+p+)for years.

meatloaf samwich
10-21-2012, 19:52
underwood
40 S&W +P 180 Grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 50 (http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw180grainjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx)

Price: $27.36 @1100fps

Big fan of underwood and georgia arms. Check both out.

SCmasterblaster
10-22-2012, 10:07
I wonder if Underwood does actual chamber pressure measurement testing?

I would think so.

MAC702
10-24-2012, 16:36
I would think so. :upeyes:

You couldn't even answer for sure, and yet his question warrants you rolling your eyes at him?

Am I just too old to think that shouldn't be insulting anymore?

SCmasterblaster
10-25-2012, 17:51
You couldn't even answer for sure, and yet his question warrants you rolling your eyes at him?

Am I just too old to think that shouldn't be insulting anymore?

Sorry. I selected the wrong smily.

whitebread
10-26-2012, 11:56
Yes, it's called the 10mm!

:wavey:

/thread.

SCmasterblaster
10-26-2012, 12:06
I don't know but I also have some of that in my ammo safe.

Mine are all loaded into four G17 mags. :cool: