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ithaca_deerslayer
10-15-2012, 21:46
Looking to spend $1500 max on a national match AR-15. I'm a dumb newbie, never shot one of these matches, and never owned an AR, and have only shot 2 recently. Strongly prefered the rifle over the carbine, and liked the AR iron sights. What should I get?

A guy at my club has competed at Camp Perry in high power, I'll check with him eventually. Not sure what he had. Just saying if I get into it, there are resources to help. He's a fellow pistol instructor, but we haven't talked rifles. I just recently got bit by the AR bug. Purchase will be with end of January tax return money. I can't wait!

The detachable handle idea makes sense to me in case I ever want to scope it. For example I might decide not to do stock service competition afterall. So this way I'd have options.

Ideally want 1 MOA or better. My Savage 10FP bolt .308 gives me 3/4" groups at 100 yards from casually resting at the bench (trying hard, but not fancy, just laying across a bag). AR iron sights recently let me shoot 1" groups at 50 yards in an 18" Bushmaster stainless barrel on top of a Colt lower fullsize rifle, fullsize handguard. This was a different guy's gun, not for matches. It was probably not a target trigger. Not saying that result makes me whatever, just saying I liked the way the AR iron peep sights work, so maybe, just maybe, I could compete and learn, and not be too embarassing :)

I'd prefer to buy a complete gun off the shelf and not tinker with anything. Try a few boxes of factory ammo to see what it likes, and then buy that ammo by the case. I have an Interarms Mark X .223 that likes 55 gr, for woodchucks and about 1.25" groups at 100 yards. I've given up on the idea trying to stay with the same grains. The AR will be into whatever ammo it decides to like, hopefully 1" or better groups.

Tried not to get hung up on the accuracy aspect, but I probably will be more happy the more accurate the new gun shoots. Even though any off-hand iron sight competition rifle can shoot better than me, when I'm away from the bench :)

Home defense is not the main purpose here, but I don't want a gun that jams. Who does? I've got an unconverted Saiga 16" 7.62x39 that I think fills my home defense needs well enough, along with the handguns of course. So the AR will be a fullsize rifle made for long range accuracy, and not for room clearing. Although my wife would rather it be for room cleaning.

So what rifle should I buy? And what weblinks do you have for me to read about national match shooting or other types of service rifle shooting that you like?

Thanks for any opinions :)

ithaca_deerslayer
10-15-2012, 22:39
The Armalite national match looks cool.
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=15A4BNM&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

This RockRiver, national match model looks interesting.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=226

Here is what I assume is Bushmaster's version of a national match rifle
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/competition.asp

Maybe a BCM is the way to go, even if not specifically marketed as a national match
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-rifle-s/146.htm

Or perhaps even the Colt match 6700
http://www.impactguns.com/colt-rifle-a3-20in-mt6700-mt6700.aspx

Any others? :)

faawrenchbndr
10-16-2012, 02:17
Armalite gets my vote

ghostwn
10-16-2012, 14:19
What about Stags version?

TedG
10-16-2012, 14:29
I'd assemble one, emphasizing the upper to be as accurate as you can afford. A lower, with a good two stage trigger is all that's necessary. The "tinkering" isn't all that difficult or time consuming. You can also go to your local range or competitions to see what others are driving tacks with.

Big Bird
10-16-2012, 16:51
The old Bushmaster used to make a very nice NM off the shelf rifle for the money.

I'd check with Wyndham Weaponry.

The things you want in a NM rifle aren't the same as what you want in a HD carbine.

You want a freefloat barrel WITH a sturdy sling capability...you are going to sling up and put some pressure on the forend. But HP rules require the gun to appear stock.

You don't need a great barrel like a Krieger to start. You'll wear out the barrel before you have developed skills good enough to take advantage of a $500 barrel. I promise.
By the time you get to Master class you can spend the money of the expensive barrel. A barrel that will hold 1 MOA with 10 shots at 300 yards will take you well into master class. 3 shot groups are meaningless for this game. You need consistency.

If you are serious about shooting highpower buy 1,200 pieces of brass...I don't care what kind. GI brass is fine. If you have 1,000 pieces of fired Lake city that's fine. Full length resize, trim and swage the primer pockets for the entire batch. Load the entire batch using Sierra Match Kings--69 grain or more. You only need to trim and swage them the first time. Shoot the entire batch and then FULL LENGTH RESIZE and reload the entire batch. After 4 reloads throw the cases away (they will start to separate case heads on the 5th reloading). Do not neck size only. You will regret it many times over and the small gain in accuracy you get isn't worth the number of jams you will see. When you have fired this batch of brass 4 times you will have close to 5k rounds on your barrel and it will be time for a new barrel. I promise...I'm telling you from experience here. I've worn out 4 barrels shooting highpower. You don't want to dork around loading 200 or 300 pcs of brass. Get into this properly.

Your trigger must be 4.5# or more to be legal as a service rifle. Your sights should be National Match--matters not--pretty much all the same.

Bren
10-16-2012, 17:25
Borrow a rifle or use a standard AR and shoot a little at local matches and learn about it before you commit. You're not going to be read for the president's match next summer.

I put one together from various parts, but used a DPMS CMP/DCM upper and just changed the rear sight to a Northern Competition aperture. I used a Colt stock and put in a lead weight and used a CMT lower with a Jewell trigger. It's pretty accurate. Somewhere I have a 100 yard target that I used to test 3 rounds of my reloads - all the shots are touching.

Too bad you're not in KY or I'd sell you the rifle and all the gear (leather coat/glove/scope/stand/etc.). I haven't shot a match in 3 or 4 years.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 18:35
What about Stags version?

Do they have a detachable handle one? Didn't notice it on first pass of their website.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 18:43
When you have fired this batch of brass 4 times you will have close to 5k rounds on your barrel and it will be time for a new barrel. I promise...I'm telling you from experience here. I've worn out 4 barrels shooting highpower.
How do you know when a barrel is worn out?

Groups sizes expand suddenly, or very slowly?

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 18:49
Borrow a rifle or use a standard AR and shoot a little at local matches and learn about it before you commit. You're not going to be read for the president's match next summer.

I've thought about a standard rifle, too.

I'll try to try a couple more rifles from club members before I purchase.

Big Bird
10-16-2012, 19:09
You know the barrel is worn out when it won't hold the 10 ring at 600 yards. A newbie will not be able to tell this has happened BTW...

You cannot shoot HP with a standard rifle well. First, the sights won't work at 600. Second the adjustments are too crude.

You need a NM sight with a small front post and a couple of small NM apertures. But the standard AR sights won't work at 600

You'll want to shoot the heavier bullets. 52 grain match bullets are dismal at 600 yards. 69 gr are good. 75-77 grain are better for 600. Since you slow fire/single load 600 yards you can use the 77 grain bullets seated out a little further and shoot the 69 grain at 200 and 300 rapid fire where you need the ammo to fit the magazine.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 19:25
You know the barrel is worn out when it won't hold the 10 ring at 600 yards. A newbie will not be able to tell this has happened BTW...

You cannot shoot HP with a standard rifle well. First, the sights won't work at 600. Second the adjustments are too crude.

You need a NM sight with a small front post and a couple of small NM apertures. But the standard AR sights won't work at 600

You'll want to shoot the heavier bullets. 52 grain match bullets are dismal at 600 yards. 69 gr are good. 75-77 grain are better for 600. Since you slow fire/single load 600 yards you can use the 77 grain bullets seated out a little further and shoot the 69 grain at 200 and 300 rapid fire where you need the ammo to fit the magazine.

Lots of good info you are providing.

Do you have to single load at 600 yards, or is that just what some do to fit in longer bullets.

Big Bird
10-16-2012, 20:03
200 yard Offhand 20 shots Single load slow fire--20 minutes

200 Yard Standing to sitting 20 shots rapid fire. Two 10 shot strings started from standing to sitting 1 minute each string with a few minutes between each string for the pit to mark and score targets. There is a required reload in each string so you load 2 rounds in a magazine, fire those, and reload with another mag with 8 rounds.

300 Yard Standing to Prone 20 shots rapid fire. Same sequence as 200 yard rapid fire except its shot from the prone.

600 yards prone single load slow fire. 20 shots in 20 minutes.

There are 2 sighters allowed before each timed stage above. 88 shots total including the sighters.

Its typically shot in relays--one group of shooters works the pit and pulls targets while the other shoots the 200 yard relays and vice versa. Move to 300, lather rinse repeat. So you alternate between shooting and pulling/marking targets.

Things you will probably need--a shooting coat. Look on ebay for a nice used Creedmore or Champion's choice shootng jacket. A good shooting jacket is essential IMO. A shooting mat...not a lot of dough $40... A spotting scope--big money if you do it right but you can get a decent one that will get you started for about $250.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-16-2012, 20:31
I've got a Leupold Ventana 15-45x 60mm angled spotting scope. How well should that do?

Big Bird
10-16-2012, 20:57
It should be fine. You'll need to be able to use it in all three positions--prone, sitting and standing. A 20-25X scope is about the most you can use on hot days as the mirage makes it impossible to see bullet holes on the higher magnification settings on warm days.

Big Bird
10-17-2012, 05:43
Lots of good information here--free articles etc.

http://jarheadtop.com/default.htm

Bren
10-17-2012, 06:16
It should be fine. You'll need to be able to use it in all three positions--prone, sitting and standing. A 20-25X scope is about the most you can use on hot days as the mirage makes it impossible to see bullet holes on the higher magnification settings on warm days.

That's where the scope stand comes in. I tried getting by with a standard tripod and it doesn't work - you can get by with a cheap scope, but not a cheap stand.

Big Bird
10-17-2012, 13:06
That's where the scope stand comes in. I tried getting by with a standard tripod and it doesn't work - you can get by with a cheap scope, but not a cheap stand.

Agreed, But I've shot with High Masters that had scope stands made out of iron pipe they fitted together and fabricated a swivel mount out of junk. It worked great.

Most all scope stands can benefit from a 10lb barbell put on the vertical pole and resting on the base. Makes it much steadier in the wind.

smokin762
10-17-2012, 16:34
If you can, go to Camp Perry and do an EIC Match. The cost is $45.00. You can keep the brass and you get a free T-Shirt. You will be using a Rock River Arms NM rifle. This is what the CMP provides. You must use their rifles.

This will give you a taste of the competition. If you sign up, the first time you will want to do the beginners class. They go over the positions a lot to help the new competitors. I would recommend going with a friend. I usually get into the 4th or 5th position on the string. That way I pull pit duty right away and leave after my Match.

The CMP building is real close and you can check it out as you get time.

http://www.odcmp.com/NM/SAFS.htm

Worth the watch.

Camp Perry 2012 M16 EIC - YouTube

ithaca_deerslayer
10-17-2012, 17:47
If you can, go to Camp Perry and do an EIC Match. The cost is $45.00. You can keep the brass and you get a free T-Shirt. You will be using a Rock River Arms NM rifle. This is what the CMP provides. You must use their rifles.

This will give you a taste of the competition. If you sign up, the first time you will want to do the beginners class. They go over the positions a lot to help the new competitors. I would recommend going with a friend. I usually get into the 4th or 5th position on the string. That way I pull pit duty right away and leave after my Match.

The CMP building is real close and you can check it out as you get time.

http://www.odcmp.com/NM/SAFS.htm

Worth the watch.

Camp Perry 2012 M16 EIC - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0vMCT5cqA)

Is that you shooting?

xArcher
10-17-2012, 20:44
I enjoyed video, thanks for sharing the link.

I noticed the shooter with only one leg, reminds me of some wheelchair bound archers I worked with in the past .... tremendous drive and mastery of the mental game, wanted no special accommodations.

Does anyone know where this type of shooting is done in the San Antonio TX area?

ithaca_deerslayer
10-17-2012, 21:25
Lots of good information here--free articles etc.

http://jarheadtop.com/default.htm

Good stuff.

smokin762
10-18-2012, 14:41
Is that you shooting?

No. That is not me. Iím fat and older. But in my mind, the women folk like me better than Fabio. :whistling:

I did the EIC M16 Match in 2010 and 2011. This year, I did the 2012 EIC M9 Match. I am going to start rotating between rifle and pistol until I get my dog leg points in both. Itís my goal.

I enjoy the Rifle Matches more than the Pistol Matches. :dunno:

ithaca_deerslayer
10-18-2012, 17:10
What does EIC stand for? I looked on a few websites and see it, but haven't found it defined yet.

smokin762
10-18-2012, 18:17
What does EIC stand for? I looked on a few websites and see it, but haven't found it defined yet.

SAFS & M16 EIC: Small Arms Firing School with the M16 Rifle. Excellence In Competition. The Coaches are from all Branches of the Military and there are also NRA Coaches to fill in the gaps.

By law, these Military Personnel are only allowed to coach the general public in the shooting sports during the National Matches.

3 years ago, when I first started doing this, they issued use competitors real M16 rifles. They did have a metal bracket attached under the pistol grip that would not allow the selector switch to go to burst. These rifles were whipped. The CMP replaced them with RRA NM rifles.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-18-2012, 18:50
3 years ago, when I first started doing this, they issued use competitors real M16 rifles. They did have a metal bracket attached under the pistol grip that would not allow the selector switch to go to burst. These rifles were whipped. The CMP replaced them with RRA NM rifles.

If you got to try a RRA NM, what do you think about that as a good purchase choice for a newbie?

Big Bird
10-18-2012, 20:00
From what I understand RRA is a good platform to start with. Like I've said time and time again...once you get past the barrel and the trigger almost all AR's are the same...providing the are reliable. You'll never notice the difference between a Colt, RRA, DPMS etc receiver in a Match rifle.

RRA, as I understand...builds a very respectable out of the box Service Rifle. You will not be able to outshoot the rifle.

The bullseye in Highpower is roughly 2 MOA for the 10 ring and 1 MOA for the X ring.

Stop and think about that... Not even the best Highpower shooters in the nation can shoot a perfect 800 points... That means they can't hold their rifles to 2 MOA!!! The best shots in the nation! I'll guarantee you the RRA will hold 1 MOA for 10 shots.

As I understand it the NM rifles go for around $1100 match prepped and ready to go.

Trust me--the gun is the cheap part. You shoot 2,000 rounds of commercial match ammo and you'll have shot more $$$ in ammo than you have in the gun. Reloading is the only way to go here.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-18-2012, 20:39
From what I understand RRA is a good platform to start with. Like I've said time and time again...once you get past the barrel and the trigger almost all AR's are the same...providing the are reliable. You'll never notice the difference between a Colt, RRA, DPMS etc receiver in a Match rifle.

RRA, as I understand...builds a very respectable out of the box Service Rifle. You will not be able to outshoot the rifle.

The bullseye in Highpower is roughly 2 MOA for the 10 ring and 1 MOA for the X ring.

Stop and think about that... Not even the best Highpower shooters in the nation can shoot a perfect 800 points... That means they can't hold their rifles to 2 MOA!!! The best shots in the nation! I'll guarantee you the RRA will hold 1 MOA for 10 shots.

As I understand it the NM rifles go for around $1100 match prepped and ready to go.

Trust me--the gun is the cheap part. You shoot 2,000 rounds of commercial match ammo and you'll have shot more $$$ in ammo than you have in the gun. Reloading is the only way to go here.

Two questions:
1. Does Colt make a match model that is off the shelf ready for competition? I haven't found the model. I've read that the 6700 does not have a stainless barrel, does not have a float tube, and does not have a two-stage trigger. This just newbie reading the interwebs, no real knowledge, so I apologize if I'm missing something. I'd still consider the 6700 anyway :)

2. Again just dumb newbie thinking, but don't I add 2 moa to any gun with my own crappy shooting, trigger yank, wobble and misalignment of the sights? If the gun is 1 moa, I'll make it 3 moa. But if it is 2 moa, I'm gonna make it 4 moa. Isn't that how the math works, adding all the troubles together?

Mayhem like Me
10-19-2012, 18:29
Bushmaster of old used to build a good match rifle with stainless barrel, and free float tube under the stock look hand guards.

I shoot one to test and it was a tack driver with the NM sights and clean 2 stage trigger.

It came with a real leather sling...

smokin762
10-19-2012, 20:07
If you got to try a RRA NM, what do you think about that as a good purchase choice for a newbie?

I liked using the RRA NM Rifle. I have two friends that bought their rifles at Camp Perry at the RRA store during the Matches. They both paid $950.00 for a complete rifle.

This past year, Both RRA and ArmaLite sold out of NM Rifles within the first week they were there. I think they are there for 2-3 weeks.

The first year, I did the EIC Rifle Match, it was with a worn out M16. My score was in the 230ís.

The second year, I used the RRA NM Rifle. I practiced a lot and I also do competitions in High Power at my Club. I scored in the 320ís.

This was out of a possible 400 points at 200 yards. This is the last 200 yards on the 1,000 yard range.

It gets real hot up at Camp Perry. During the Matches, itís in the 90ís and there is always cross winds.

Those black Handguards get hot as heck and becomes very difficult to hold on to once they start cooking your hand.

This happened to me both times I went. I know I threw a few shots just because of the pain from the heat. :crying:

Donít forget to bring a glove for the weak hand. A shooting glove would be best. But if you are just trying it out to see if you will like it, then a heavy glove that is somewhat heat resistant should work.

Wear Pants and have a long sleeve shirt ready for shooting if you plan on using a shooting mat. The black grip squares on them will become painful to use in that sun on bare skin. Bring a hat and lots of sunscreen. Also bring snacks and water, breaks are done behind the assembly line when youíre waiting your turn to shoot. Drink lots of water. You will need it. They have water out on tables for people to get.

smokin762
10-19-2012, 20:21
Two questions:
1. Does Colt make a match model that is off the shelf ready for competition? I haven't found the model. I've read that the 6700 does not have a stainless barrel, does not have a float tube, and does not have a two-stage trigger. This just newbie reading the interwebs, no real knowledge, so I apologize if I'm missing something. I'd still consider the 6700 anyway :)

2. Again just dumb newbie thinking, but don't I add 2 moa to any gun with my own crappy shooting, trigger yank, wobble and misalignment of the sights? If the gun is 1 moa, I'll make it 3 moa. But if it is 2 moa, I'm gonna make it 4 moa. Isn't that how the math works, adding all the troubles together?

You want to gently squeeze the trigger (donít jerk it) and hold it, until you feel the recoil. Then release the trigger and let it reset. Donít forget to have your nose, touching the charging handle. This will help you to keep the same distance from the rear sight every time.

Start practicing in your living room or where ever in the Prone Position, the Sitting Position and the Standing Position with your rifle. Dry firing in these positions for 15 minutes a day will help you gain control.

Big Bird
10-20-2012, 09:21
Bushmaster of old used to build a good match rifle with stainless barrel, and free float tube under the stock look hand guards.

I shoot one to test and it was a tack driver with the NM sights and clean 2 stage trigger.

It came with a real leather sling...

Unfortunately I don't think they offer one anymore. I looked at the Bushmaster and Wyndham Weaponry web site and neither offers a NM rifle any more.

I think Rock River took up the slack when they exited that market. From what I understand they do a good job as well.

Big Bird
10-20-2012, 09:42
Two questions:
1. Does Colt make a match model that is off the shelf ready for competition? I haven't found the model. I've read that the 6700 does not have a stainless barrel, does not have a float tube, and does not have a two-stage trigger. This just newbie reading the interwebs, no real knowledge, so I apologize if I'm missing something. I'd still consider the 6700 anyway :)

2. Again just dumb newbie thinking, but don't I add 2 moa to any gun with my own crappy shooting, trigger yank, wobble and misalignment of the sights? If the gun is 1 moa, I'll make it 3 moa. But if it is 2 moa, I'm gonna make it 4 moa. Isn't that how the math works, adding all the troubles together?

Colt never offered a National Match prepped gun to the best of my knowledge. Certainly not one with a free-float system.
They did sell a HBAR match rifle. But calling it a match rifle doesn't make it one.

Here's the thing about accuracy. You can't believe 10% of the crap you read on the internet about rifle accuracy. If you have a 1 MOA gun you can shoot a perfect score on the National Match course IF you can hold the gun that well. A 1/4 MOA gun isn't going to make it easier.

But forget that. You need a gun that can put 10 shots inside a 3 inch X ring inch at 300 yards in under a minute with a hot barrel! If you have a gun that can put 10 shots at 300 yards in a 3"group you have a VERY good match rifle. Its not going to win a bench rest competition but you aren't shooting in a bench rest competition. You need a different degree of PRACTICAL accuracy. There is an unrealistic internet standard of sub MOA accuracy for rifles that has nothing to do with PRACTICAL accuracy. 10 shots in a 3" group at 300 yards is your benchmark. If you rifle will hold that with nice round groups there is no trophey in Highpower Rifle matches you cannot win. Because people want to be deliberately obtuse they take what I'm saying and make the retarded assumption I'm advocating accepting a low degree of accuracy. You would be wrong.

What i am saying is there are not many rifles that can shoot better than 10 shots inside 3 inches at 300 yards. If you say that's a meaningless standard I suggest you don't know what you are talking about. Because a 3 shot group is meaningless for a highpower shooter. There is no match segment in a Highpower match that requires 3 shots.

You will be dollars to donuts ahead of the game if you find a load that does the above and instead of spending time and money in search of a better load you spend it practicing your position shooting.

When I shot highpower there was a standard .308 load they most everyone used... 168 Sierra Match King with 42.5 grains of IMR 4895. I tried it in my rifle. Found I could hold 3 inches at 300 yards with that load and never messed with it again. I shot my way into Master class and never worked on developing another load except for my 600 yard + ammo where I loaded 180 and 190 grain bullets. Even when I wore out a barrel and replaced it I just verified the old standard load worked and kept shooting. There were people who always dorked around with their ammunition in search of that perfect load that was going to win the match. They never shot worth a damn because they weren't focused on the weakest link in the whole system AND because they never learned how THAT load shot in the wind. You get good because you shoot a given load a lot. You know what its going to do. Screw around with it all the time and you have no idea.

A 1 MOA gun isn't the weak link in the equation. A 1/4 MOA gun doesn't make it any better if you can't hold it to 3 MOA (and as a newbie--you can't!)

Think of it like this...did you ever know someone who was a great musician? Someone who could pick up a guitar from Costco and make it sound good? Versus the crappy musician who owns a Gibson or a Martin and can't make it sound worth a crap? Its the same exact concept here. How good you are in a Highpower Match is about 10% rifle and 90% shooter.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-20-2012, 12:54
Here's the thing about accuracy. You can't believe 10% of the crap you read on the internet about rifle accuracy. If you have a 1 MOA gun you can shoot a perfect score on the National Match course IF you can hold the gun that well. A 1/4 MOA gun isn't going to make it easier.

But forget that. You need a gun that can put 10 shots inside a 3 inch X ring inch at 300 yards in under a minute with a hot barrel! If you have a gun that can put 10 shots at 300 yards in a 3"group you have a VERY good match rifle. Its not going to win a bench rest competition but you aren't shooting in a bench rest competition. You need a different degree of PRACTICAL accuracy. There is an unrealistic internet standard of sub MOA accuracy for rifles that has nothing to do with PRACTICAL accuracy. 10 shots in a 3" group at 300 yards is your benchmark. If you rifle will hold that with nice round groups there is no trophey in Highpower Rifle matches you cannot win. Because people want to be deliberately obtuse they take what I'm saying and make the retarded assumption I'm advocating accepting a low degree of accuracy. You would be wrong.

What i am saying is there are not many rifles that can shoot better than 10 shots inside 3 inches at 300 yards. If you say that's a meaningless standard I suggest you don't know what you are talking about. Because a 3 shot group is meaningless for a highpower shooter. There is no match segment in a Highpower match that requires 3 shots.

That all makes a lot of sense to me.

Usually I shoot 5 shots for group size, going real slow, maybe 1 to 3 minutes per shot. My bolt .308 gets .75" groups that way at 100 yards.

But if I were to shoot a 10 shot group in less than 10 minutes, what would happen? Would the barrel warp or something else mechanical to open up the group size? Maybe group would be 1.5".

But maybe some other gun shoots 1" 5 shot groups, and also 1" 10 shot groups.

Mayhem like Me
10-20-2012, 19:35
That all makes a lot of sense to me.

Usually I shoot 5 shots for group size, going real slow, maybe 1 to 3 minutes per shot. My bolt .308 gets .75" groups that way at 100 yards.

But if I were to shoot a 10 shot group in less than 10 minutes, what would happen? Would the barrel warp or something else mechanical to open up the group size? Maybe group would be 1.5".

But maybe some other gun shoots 1" 5 shot groups, and also 1" 10 shot groups.

Great post BB when I build a gun for work I shoot a 10 to 15 round group at 100yards my benchmark for a 10.5 to 12 inch SBR is a 1 to 1.5 inch circular group. This is not a problem with quality parts and care during assembly.

A work gun that shoots like this may not shoot 5 shot half moa but it will be accurate enough for a head shot if needed.

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ithaca_deerslayer
10-21-2012, 17:31
Wife gave the go ahead to buy. Been searching local gunstores, haven't seen squat. Lots and lots and lots of carbines, and a few Frankenstien rifles.

Next step is to check on the availability of what can be ordered. Might take a few months for an order to come in, if the rumors are true about the companies being backlogged.

Makes it harder that I'm in NYS, because no bayonet lug, collapsable stock, threaded muzzle, or flash suppressor allowed. Any one of those makes a felony. So the gun needs to be in post-ban configuration. They exist, but just makes it that much harder to find what I want.