Romney: Jobs aren't coming back to the US because of fake Apple Store. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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hamster
10-16-2012, 20:59
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

Alpine
10-16-2012, 21:10
No. But he did point out many of the failures of the current president, including fast and furious.

Dragoon189
10-16-2012, 21:11
No. But he did point out many of the failures of the current president, including fast and furious.

And the moderator said it had nothing to do with assault weapons :faint:

Rabbi
10-16-2012, 21:11
I did not hear him say what you are claiming.

I heard him give a pretty true speech that demonstrated he understood the problems with China and how they do business, along with trade and IP issues....USING the fake Apple store issue to help with those points.

Lampshade
10-16-2012, 21:12
Uh, no, he didn't.

He brought it up as an example of the Chinese stealing intellectual property in regards to his comments about competing on a level playing field.

Dragoon189
10-16-2012, 21:13
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

He used that as an example of china's current business tactics, he also said your final point too. Stupidity huh?

hamster
10-16-2012, 21:18
I did not hear him say what you are claiming.

I heard him give a pretty true speech that demonstrated he understood the problems with China and how they do business, along with trade and IP issues....USING the fake Apple store issue to help with those points.

Sorry the currency manipulation crap is jingoistic bs. Obama's claimed improvements re trade with China are due to the same currency manipulation on our part.

It boils down to the fact that the average Chinese worker has a much lower standard of living and wage requirement than in the US. We simply can't compete on the unskilled labor front. The arguments about unfair playing field may be true, but are irrelevant when taking into account lifestyle.

The peasant fresh off the farm is always going to be cheaper than the union worker with 5 LCD tv, two cars and a suburban tract home.

Rabbi
10-16-2012, 21:20
Sorry the currency manipulation crap is jingoistic bs. Obama's claimed improvements re trade with China are due to the same currency manipulation on our part.

It boils down to the fact that the average Chinese worker has a much lower standard of living and wage requirement than in the US. We simply can't compete on the unskilled labor front. The arguments about unfair playing field may be true, but are irrelevant when taking into account lifestyle.

The peasant fresh off the farm is always going to be cheaper than the union worker with 5 LCD tv, two cars and a suburban tract home.

That is fine, your first claim is still wrong. Answer for that, then we can move on to something else.

8-Ball
10-16-2012, 21:21
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

Do you have selective hearing or do you just not pay attention?

hamster
10-16-2012, 21:22
That is fine, your first claim is still wrong. Answer for that, then we can move on to something else.

Fake apple stores and PBS funding. are issues so minor and cursory they don't warrant time in a presidential debate. Much bigger fish to fry.

Alpine
10-16-2012, 21:28
Fake apple stores and PBS funding. are issues so minor and cursory they don't warrant time in a presidential debate. Much bigger fish to fry.

Agreed. Now can we get back to the failures and shortcomings of the current president? Starting with fast and furious?

Rabbi
10-16-2012, 21:29
Fake apple stores and PBS funding. are issues so minor and cursory they don't warrant time in a presidential debate. Much bigger fish to fry.

That is also fine, but your first claim was still wrong. You still need to address that, then we can move on to something else.

hamster
10-16-2012, 21:31
That is also fine, but your first claim was still wrong. You still need to address that, then we can move on to something else.

You mean my subject line? Sure I admit it was an exaggeration, but I stand by the fact that the apple store comment was completely irrelevant to the question of manufacturing jobs leaving the US.

Calico Jack
10-16-2012, 21:32
Fake apple stores and PBS funding. are issues so minor and cursory they don't warrant time in a presidential debate. Much bigger fish to fry.

You libs are always asking for specifics and then you complain when he gives you specifics.

Rabbi
10-16-2012, 21:33
You mean my subject line? Sure I admit it was an exaggeration, but I stand by the fact that the apple store comment was completely irrelevant to the question of manufacturing jobs leaving the US.

So you were wrong.

Now, if you want to talk about something else...

hamster
10-16-2012, 21:36
You libs are always asking for specifics and then you complain when he gives you specifics.

First of all I'm in no way a lib. I'd vote for honey boo boo before I vote for Obama.

Second, irrelevant observations don't count as specifics.

His comment about lower tax rates was specifics on how to attract jobs back to the us. Fake apple stores was populist pandering. Sorry I call it as I see it. All things considered though Obama came off as the bigger ******, as always. Especially with his AWB crap.

Snaps
10-16-2012, 21:36
um, no. Perhaps you need to rewind your DVR

sappy13
10-16-2012, 21:49
I dont forsee jobs like assembling ipads in china ever coming back to America. Our workers have too have of a standard of living for apple to make the profit they want. If it did move to America, i feel like the price to the consumer would sky rocket and people would not purchase as many. Its kinda like minimum wage. Everyone who makes minimum wage, especially those who work in that kind of job most of their life, feel like it should be increased, but they fail to realize that the goods they buy will cost more, which in turn will hurt them more in the long run than the wage increase helped. (I know, that sentence was too long and the grammer nazi will tear it apart).

certifiedfunds
10-16-2012, 21:54
Bring back Fruit of the Loom!!!!!!!!

We need good textile jobs again!

Cali-Glock
10-16-2012, 22:01
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

No that is not what he said... In discussing China's piracy problem he mentioned a number of examples including this one.

Tiro Fijo
10-16-2012, 22:03
There is no way we can compete with the Third World on wages.

The IRS does not delineate if a co. moves to China or to another state. The tax writeoff is the same. Where they clean up shop is on cheaper wages. We have become a society of service sector jobs whereas people use the Gov't for health care. e.g., Walmart, or go without. This has to stop or we will become an even more stratified society. Most people knock the Federal spending (as do I) but truth be known 1/2 the country would be in the breadline tomorrow if the Fed. Gov't cut off all the gravy. Sadly, it must be done however.

That said, we simply have too many people. Labor is not a scarce commodity. Technology has brought us many wonderful things, however unfortunately it has left many boats stuck in the mud which no "rising tide" can ever raise. The future is bleak I am afraid, and the pendulum always swings back hard. Think Soylent Green. :whistling:

jpa
10-16-2012, 22:24
Uh, no, he didn't.

He brought it up as an example of the Chinese stealing intellectual property in regards to his comments about competing on a level playing field.

Exactly. He cited that as an example of how China cheats by stealing American intellectual property. Why buy a real Apple iphone if you can get a Chinese knockoff made of the same components for $100 less?

They're both guilty of straying very far from the original question. Nothing like memorizing a bunch of talking points and trying to get as close to them as possible regardless of the question that was asked....

jpa
10-16-2012, 22:27
Bring back Fruit of the Loom!!!!!!!!

We need good textile jobs again!

Yes, because Jeremy Epstein is going through 4 years of college to spend his career sewing underwear.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that manufacturing is the kind of jobs Americans want and need. Sure there are plenty of unskilled laborers in the US that need those jobs, but you don't need to go to college to do them.

Fox
10-16-2012, 22:33
Fake apple stores and PBS funding. are issues so minor and cursory they don't warrant time in a presidential debate. Much bigger fish to fry.

They are symptoms, evidence of what is wrong.

Glotin
10-16-2012, 22:34
Oh God.

Not this again.

I already went on a diatribe about failing to comprehend the concept of an example with the Big Bird nonsense.

Peace Warrior
10-16-2012, 22:36
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.
THE ONLY REASON China is even being mentioned in the 2012 debate is because of bush I's, klinton's, and bush II's pandering to China during their terms in office and since. Matter of fact, bush I was China's whore. Period. End of story.

Accordingly, bush II was daddy's boy all the way when it came to bending over for China. Heck, he was simply an idiot in position to cheney's and daddy's way of doing things. (Simply put, they kept the boy drunk and did whatever the heck they wanted to and had it undersigned by bush II.)

The Chinese leadership has been praised by the likes of the bush's and will have their models of both population and political control almost 100% emulated by the forthcoming "dictatorship(s)" here in America.

ETA: romney is a 100% PURE goober wannabe compared to the bush family fiasco.

domin8ss
10-16-2012, 23:29
Oh God.

Not this again.

I already went on a diatribe about failing to comprehend the concept of an example with the Big Bird nonsense.

Maybe Sesame Street needs to do an episode on this so that some people can comprehend it.

Taphius
10-17-2012, 00:08
They are symptoms, evidence of what is wrong.

I was going to say the same thing. Failures of policy and one that shouldn't have federal level spending in the first place

domin8ss
10-17-2012, 00:20
Intro to International Business 101: America makes something new. It costs a lot. It gets outsourced overseas, or foreign companies start up to make them (i.e. Sony). Price of manufacturing is lower. Price goes down. Americans buy more. More jobs created both overseas (manufacturing) and domestically (business management, HR, marketing, accounting, finance, administration, transportation, fuels, etc. just to name a few). It's a win-win for everybody.

Imo, Americas biggest problem is that innovation is currently stagnant. We need to start inventing again so that people can have the newest and shiniest toys to buy. We had the .coms in the 90s and the techs of the 2000s. What's next?

Believe it, or not, some jobs are actually returning to our shores. Why? The cost of transportation. It is now more cost effective to make smaller and cheaper items in America (such as light bulbs). Reason being, the cost of fuel and freight has gone up so much that it costs more to make the item and ship it here. I remember hearing some news about a light bulb manufacturer (possibly GE) bringing those jobs back because of freight costs several months ago.

DanaT
10-17-2012, 00:21
It boils down to the fact that the average Chinese worker has a much lower standard of living and wage requirement than in the US. We simply can't compete on the unskilled labor front.

Ding Ding. We have a winner.

And those same unskilled Americans think they should make $40/hr. And then they cant figure out why factories are moved??:faint:

jpa
10-17-2012, 01:30
THE ONLY REASON China is even being mentioned in the 2012 debate is because of bush I's, klinton's, and bush II's pandering to China during their terms in office and since. Matter of fact, bush I was China's whore. Period. End of story.

Accordingly, bush II was daddy's boy all the way when it came to bending over for China. Heck, he was simply an idiot in position to cheney's and daddy's way of doing things. (Simply put, they kept the boy drunk and did whatever the heck they wanted to and had it undersigned by bush II.)

The Chinese leadership has been praised by the likes of the bush's and will have their models of both population and political control almost 100% emulated by the forthcoming "dictatorship(s)" here in America.

ETA: romney is a 100% PURE goober wannabe compared to the bush family fiasco.

He felt bad for puking on their Ambassador.

Taphius
10-17-2012, 01:38
Ding Ding. We have a winner.

And those same unskilled Americans think they should make $40/hr. And then they cant figure out why factories are moved??:faint:

Comparative advantage is a *****! :whistling:

certifiedfunds
10-17-2012, 06:46
Yes, because Jeremy Epstein is going through 4 years of college to spend his career sewing underwear.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that manufacturing is the kind of jobs Americans want and need. Sure there are plenty of unskilled laborers in the US that need those jobs, but you don't need to go to college to do them.

Check your sarcasm meter.

SC Tiger
10-17-2012, 06:46
Sorry the currency manipulation crap is jingoistic bs. Obama's claimed improvements re trade with China are due to the same currency manipulation on our part.

It boils down to the fact that the average Chinese worker has a much lower standard of living and wage requirement than in the US. We simply can't compete on the unskilled labor front. The arguments about unfair playing field may be true, but are irrelevant when taking into account lifestyle.

The peasant fresh off the farm is always going to be cheaper than the union worker with 5 LCD tv, two cars and a suburban tract home.

This is true, but there is a part of this that companies are starting to figure out. It is a little cheaper to build in China than the US but not as much as you think. The labor rates are lower, but you have a few other issues:

1) Shipping - it costs a lot to bring it over here
2) Quality - on Chinese goods it sucks, and when there is a problem you typically have an entire containerload that is bad. If it is something you use a lot of there is probably at least one more bad container in transit.
3) Regulatory - Chinese companies tend to skirt their responsibilities. The importer is the one the EPA will burn for this.
4) Labor availability - it is not as abundant as you think over there. The old model was to import labor from western China, put them in dormatories (at about 20/room) and they see their families about 3x/yr. Now companies are putting the factories in the west, which is cutting into the supply of labor. As a result the cost of labor is going up.
4) Copycatting - basically selling goods on your design withs someone else's name on it and you get none of the profits. There is an entire market in Shanghai that sells copycat stuff. You can get a Chipod for about $50.00 US!

When these jobs come back though, they aren't going to the union-controlled north. They will come to the southern states where right-to-work laws (as opposed to right-to-organize) are prevalent.

Before someone flips out, they won't ALL come back. What you will see is things like automotive parts, and machine parts - things like that, as well as components for finished goods that are built here.

Mexico is similar except shipping is cheaper, labor a little more expensive, and the quality still sucks.

mac66
10-17-2012, 06:48
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

You shouldn't listen to adults talk since you clearly don't understand what is being said.

SC Tiger
10-17-2012, 06:51
Bring back Fruit of the Loom!!!!!!!!

We need good textile jobs again!

The textile industry is gone for good thanks to the EPA. What we need is jobs in manufacturing "hard goods" - auto parts, tools, trash cans, stuff like that.

No one needs a college degree to do them, but they put money in people's pockets, who will then spend that money and get the economy moving.

Flying-Dutchman
10-17-2012, 07:07
Sorry the currency manipulation crap is jingoistic bs.
OK, message received you are an Obama voter.

I respect that as there are a lot of Obama voters. It is going to be close election could go either way.

But an NRA Life Member voting for Obama….wow:upeyes:

hamster
10-17-2012, 07:12
This is true, but there is a part of this that companies are starting to figure out. It is a little cheaper to build in China than the US but not as much as you think. The labor rates are lower, but you have a few other issues:

1) Shipping - it costs a lot to bring it over here
2) Quality - on Chinese goods it sucks, and when there is a problem you typically have an entire containerload that is bad. If it is something you use a lot of there is probably at least one more bad container in transit.
3) Regulatory - Chinese companies tend to skirt their responsibilities. The importer is the one the EPA will burn for this.
4) Labor availability - it is not as abundant as you think over there. The old model was to import labor from western China, put them in dormatories (at about 20/room) and they see their families about 3x/yr. Now companies are putting the factories in the west, which is cutting into the supply of labor. As a result the cost of labor is going up.
4) Copycatting - basically selling goods on your design withs someone else's name on it and you get none of the profits. There is an entire market in Shanghai that sells copycat stuff. You can get a Chipod for about $50.00 US!

When these jobs come back though, they aren't going to the union-controlled north. They will come to the southern states where right-to-work laws (as opposed to right-to-organize) are prevalent.

Before someone flips out, they won't ALL come back. What you will see is things like automotive parts, and machine parts - things like that, as well as components for finished goods that are built here.

Mexico is similar except shipping is cheaper, labor a little more expensive, and the quality still sucks.

I agree with you on all points except Quality. Chinese quality is exactly what the buyer specifies/verifies.

I have no sympathy for companies like Mattel that outsource to the lowest bidder, don't do quality control checks, plaster their name on the product... then blame the supplier for poor quality.

If you want good quality from China, Mexico, anywhere... you need to get involved in the process and do lots of quality control. Apple products are made in China and are considered some of the highest quality consumer goods available. BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen all manufacture in China and produce excellent quality products there as well.

Blaming "China" for poor quality products is the biggest cop-out since the Auto industry blamed Japanese cars for their demise.

hamster
10-17-2012, 07:13
OK, message received you are an Obama voter.

I respect that as there are a lot of Obama voters. It is going to be close election could go either way.

But an NRA Life Member voting for Obama….wow:upeyes:

:) very funny.

hamster
10-17-2012, 07:22
No that is not what he said... In discussing China's piracy problem he mentioned a number of examples non sequiturs including this one.


Fixed it for ya!

SC Tiger
10-17-2012, 07:27
I agree with you on all points except Quality. Chinese quality is exactly what the buyer specifies/verifies.

I deal with Chinese garbage on a daily basis. There are Chinese vendors that can make good stuff and they can do simple things acceptably well, but many will shortcut QC checks. These same companies will also lie to you. Not all of them obviously but quite a few that I've had to deal with will. Of course as long as the purchasing people get the cheaper price (that is a failing on the purchasing company's part).

And American plants can make some real garbage as well. The difference is you don't have two months worth of the garbage to deal with if you do it right.

I have no sympathy for companies like Mattel that outsource to the lowest bidder, don't do quality control checks, plaster their name on the product... then blame the supplier for poor quality.

100% agree. If your name is on the box, you are responsible for what is in the box.

If you want good quality from China, Mexico, anywhere... you need to get involved in the process and do lots of quality control. Apple products are made in China and are considered some of the highest quality consumer goods available. BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen all manufacture in China and produce excellent quality products there as well.

The problem is that gets expensive. If you have a few vendors it isn't bad but if you have a lot of them then the price gets very high. It is almost better to do it here. Plus when your supplier is half a world away it gets tough to keep an eye on them. In-house QC people get conditioned to the supplier's point of view very quickly.

I would question how much BMW. VW and Mercedes are actually saving by buying Chinese parts. Also, those three makes aren't known as bastions of reliability. :tongueout:

Blaming "China" for poor quality products is the biggest cop-out since the Auto industry blamed Japanese cars for their demise.

I agree but for a different reason - if you select a vendor you are responsible for the result. I also agree with the Japan-US auto industry thing. Japanese cars were what the American cars should have been had they put any effort into it.

Sorry to do this but see my comments in the text of your post.

Quality of Chinese goods is an issue. Combine it with the rest and you wind up with the "true cost" being much closer to the cost of American-made parts.

hamster
10-17-2012, 07:45
Sorry to do this but see my comments in the text of your post.

Quality of Chinese goods is an issue. Combine it with the rest and you wind up with the "true cost" being much closer to the cost of American-made parts.

Excellent points.

I've had very good experiences in China, largely due to the quality of the western buyers. A few years ago I happened to be in a Chinese factory (steel industry supplier) when their buyer showed up to do a quality inspection. The product was a blast furnace bottom... something which has to be top notch, otherwise it can cost a steel mill hundreds of millions in lost productivity.

The buyer (from Luxembourg) literally was on his hands and knees inspecting every large carbon & graphite block with calipers, rules, levels etc. He measured every dimension of every block to tolerances and also took random core samples. The quality of the project was his responsibility. Needless to say, they had zero problems with quality because they took time and made the effort to verify.

If I just blindly buy from the lowest bidder with no verification or quality control, it is a crapshoot. No matter where I am.

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 10:15
delete

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 10:25
Ding Ding. We have a winner.

And those same unskilled Americans think they should make $40/hr. And then they cant figure out why factories are moved??:faint:
Ding ding dong. We have one. :whistling:

I would gladly pay American workers $40 an hour and keep jobs here if you would get the tree-hugging hippies, the climate change liars, and the environmental wackos off my back.

Pay rates did NOT send jobs overseas!

It was/is the endless bureaucratic red-tape and mountains of regulations from the federal government that sent factories overseas. Pay rates had literally ZERO to do with it. You could pay everyone overtime rates all week, and still make good profits without the money being thrown to the federal government or spent on jumping your company through all the environmental wacko's hoops.

Heck, just in the last month a much needed highway project was literally stopped, and now may actually be DETOURED because of a spider less than the size of dime. A dog gone spider! If this was the last known female spider of that kind on the Earth, and even if she had a clutch of eggs to start the population all over again, I guarantee you the Chinese would have mowed the ***** down and built those highways! And rightfully so I'll add.

Give me a place in America to build a factory with fair environmental policies and I can afford to pay the workers dang good salaries one and all. No, you are wrong Dana as lower pay rates were a profiteering benefit that was realized AFTER moving companies to other countries. It was/is the regulations imposed on businesses that are the incentive to move away from America in the first place.

From the time you break ground to build a building, until the time you start delivering your product to the marketplace, you are spending millions so as to conform with many times USELESS regulations that protect things like a spider. Give me HUGE break on the "our wages are too high" here in America.

You don't muzzle the mouth of the ox that treads the corn. Pay Americans a fair wage and get the useless government regulations off the backs of businesses if you want to create good paying jobs here in America.

ETA: The coming carbon credit structured fees are the final straw that have and will continue to break the camel's back, so to speak.

Once these carbon footprint fees are imposed, I defy anyone not being given a pass on such regulations to start a new business in an old building. Remember what barry soetoro advised about coal fired plants? Knowing barry is a puppet, the globalists are not going to let anyone of the Middle Class here in America be a success. But of course mcdonald's restaurants are given a free pass on the mandatory government healthcare being forced on the rest of the small business owners.

mcd's pays it people minimum wage. Alot of mc'ds employees also receive welfare, and yet the regulations will not apply to mcd's the same as it would apply to me paying people twice the minimum wage.

Dana, simply put, you're wrong about wages sending job/companies overseas sir.

DanaT
10-17-2012, 12:40
I am not wrong.

I am not paying unskilled labor more than they are worth. Sorry. Unskilled labor can be filled under $10 an hour. Semi skilled 10-20.

After 20 there needs to be skill.

You CANNOT pay a McDonalds worker $80k a year and expect to be in business long.

Well you can pay $80k but then you management will be making $400k. You are just scaling at that point and it's called "inflation"


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

DanaT
10-17-2012, 12:45
Peacewarrior.

Let me tell you a personal experience that I had with high wages. It was a long time a ago, on galaxy far far...

No wait it was this morning 15 minutes away. I had to go to a meeting. I stopped at starbucks. A latte and brownie sure looked good.

Only cost me CHF11.30. I would guess that is $12-13.

A couple weeks ago, I bought a big Mac meal. Was CHF 14 something. Over $16 for a big Mac meal.

Now tell me that high wages didnt affect the price. How many big Mac meals would you buy at $16 a pop?


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Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 12:49
I am not wrong.

I am not paying unskilled labor more than they are worth. Sorry. Unskilled labor can be filled under $10 an hour. Semi skilled 10-20.

After 20 there needs to be skill.

You CANNOT pay a McDonalds worker $80k a year and expect to be in business long.

Well you can pay $80k but then you management will be making $400k. You are just scaling at that point and it's called "inflation"


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
You either ignored and missed, or you are misrepresenting my point. I personally think the former in this case.

My point, which you ignore, is the distinction between paying fair wages or paying to jump through the hoops of governmental regulations as well as paying to abide federal regulations.

My point was that mcd's doesn't have to oblige a SINGLE item in what's called obama-healthcare bill. I'm not making this up. mcd's has a complete exemption; however, you or I as small business owners are beat upon relentlessly. Not by workers demanding raises, which we could easily afford, but by government cronies intent on making it impossible for us to do business as Middle Class Americans.

Please research this for yourself. Companies didn't go overseas to be able to pay lower wages, they left to get out of the reign of the federal government's sphere and scope of control. The lower wages were merely a profiteering side benefit to the real reason they left America.

mgs
10-17-2012, 12:50
We have plenty of unskilled workers sitting at home watching TV all day on the Tax Payers dime......put them to work for $3.50 an hour and their Fed check $3.50 an hour and let them work for a living. It would cut welfare in half!

Bren
10-17-2012, 12:50
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

The Chinese specialize in copying U.S. made prodcuts and selling them all over the world at a much cheaper price. You know those cool Ray Bans the agents wore in terminator - because of the lack of intellectual property law enforcement, mine cost $10 at a Bazaar in Afghanistan. One guy outfitted all the officers and NCOs of his Afghan Army company with Oakley copies for $2 a pair. DVD's, CD's, Benchmade knives - all on the street for 1-10% of the price of the real thing. That makes it hard to compete.

So, while the cost of doing business here is a factor, the ability of those cheaper markets to copy the more desireable products and flood the market with them isn't helping any.

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 12:58
Peacewarrior.

Let me tell you a personal experience that I had with high wages. It was a long time a ago, on galaxy far far...

No wait it was this morning 15 minutes away. I had to go to a meeting. I stopped at starbucks. A latte and brownie sure looked good.

Only cost me CHF11.30. I would guess that is $12-13.

A couple weeks ago, I bought a big Mac meal. Was CHF 14 something. Over $16 for a big Mac meal.

Now tell me that high wages didnt affect the price. How many big Mac meals would you buy at $16 a pop?


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
Now you are mixing apples and moon rocks to put it mildly.

Let me put it this way...

A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR highway construction project was stopped, completely stopped, due to a spider that cannot cover a dime for its size. Now it appears that the highway is going to be detoured due to this same spider. Are you kidding me!!!

Pretend this was a private venture and a building being built to produce cups for mcd's or star bucks. Just pretend okay. What if China says, hey, come over here, and we will not put such useless regulations on you for building here. Where will I build?

The point is that you are straining at the gnat while swallowing the camel. Don't fall for the pundits' lies, think for yourself and use due diligence to search this matter out. Government regulations, NOT Americans' wages, are chasing away business and economic growth here in America.

Glock20 10mm
10-17-2012, 13:02
Ding Ding. We have a winner.

And those same unskilled Americans think they should make $40/hr. And then they cant figure out why factories are moved??:faint:

I blame unions for inflated wages...

SC Tiger
10-17-2012, 13:05
I blame unions for inflated wages...

They played a part but that just drove the jobs to right-to-work states.

Peace Warrior has a point about regulatory issues playing a hand in this as well.

Glock20 10mm
10-17-2012, 13:07
There are two killers of wages here... unions and the EPA.

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 13:07
We have plenty of unskilled workers sitting at home watching TV all day on the Tax Payers dime......put them to work for $3.50 an hour and their Fed check $3.50 an hour and let them work for a living. It would cut welfare in half!
Believe it or not, that would be workable in an otherwise non-workable but growing economy.

RenoF250
10-17-2012, 13:24
They played a part but that just drove the jobs to right-to-work states.

Peace Warrior has a point about regulatory issues playing a hand in this as well.

Aside from the wages and regulations there is the cost of energy, government subsidies (Airbus is one great example of that but it is all over), taxes, and labor laws that are killing American business. Much of the government seems to have a disgust for business and only put up with them for a source of tax revenue.

Besides that American management is HORRID. Most have their head so far up their rears they haven't seen light in years. Dilbert is spot on. They are constantly dumping resources into a project to get it 90% there and then dumping it. Or making stupid decisions based on poorly orchestrated/misunderstood "market research".


As a side note, why didn't Romney call Obama out for teaming with GE who pays a pittance in taxes and is outsourcing like crazy?

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 13:43
They played a part but that just drove the jobs to right-to-work states.

Peace Warrior has a point about regulatory issues playing a hand in this as well.
I personally could have moved to China and restarted my business, but as an English speaking American, my Chinese was worse than my French, which was never much at all to tell the truth. :tongueout:

Ian Moone
10-17-2012, 13:49
Oh God.

Not this again.

I already went on a diatribe about failing to comprehend the concept of an example with the Big Bird nonsense.

I heard Romney wants to outsource Big Bird's job to Taiwan and then steal his pension. :rofl:

Glock20 10mm
10-17-2012, 14:10
Aside from the wages and regulations there is the cost of energy, government subsidies (Airbus is one great example of that but it is all over), taxes, and labor laws that are killing American business. Much of the government seems to have a disgust for business and only put up with them for a source of tax revenue.

Besides that American management is HORRID. Most have their head so far up their rears they haven't seen light in years. Dilbert is spot on. They are constantly dumping resources into a project to get it 90% there and then dumping it. Or making stupid decisions based on poorly orchestrated/misunderstood "market research".


As a side note, why didn't Romney call Obama out for teaming with GE who pays a pittance in taxes and is outsourcing like crazy?

That's why Dilbert is so damn funny... it so accurately depicts large businesses in this nation.

Glock20 10mm
10-17-2012, 14:11
I heard Romney wants to outsource Big Bird's job to Taiwan and then steal his pension. :rofl:

Naw... this is Romney's plan for big bird...

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Poultry/RoastTurkey.jpg

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 14:15
Naw... this is Romney's plan for big bird...

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Poultry/RoastTurkey.jpg
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM big bird :homer: :supergrin:

Glock13
10-17-2012, 14:15
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

Are you serious? That is what you heard? When people wonder how Obama can still be doing decent in the polls despite his performance, posts like this one are the reason.

DanaT
10-17-2012, 14:16
You either ignored and missed, or you are misrepresenting my point. I personally think the former in this case.

No, you are misrepresenting my point. My point is that unskilled American workers think they are much more valuable and should be paid what they define as "fair". Fair to them is they should be driving a lexus.

My point, which you ignore, is the distinction between paying fair wages or paying to jump through the hoops of governmental regulations as well as paying to abide federal regulations.

A fair wage is what the market will bear. I will not pay someone $20/hr because that is a "fair wage" when I have 100 people in line that will take the job for $10/hr. Fair is what the market will pay.

My point was that mcd's doesn't have to oblige a SINGLE item in what's called obama-healthcare bill. I'm not making this up. mcd's has a complete exemption; however, you or I as small business owners are beat upon relentlessly. Not by workers demanding raises, which we could easily afford, but by government cronies intent on making it impossible for us to do business as Middle Class Americans.

I do not know anything about a McDonalds exemption so I will not argue it one way of another.

Please research this for yourself. Companies didn't go overseas to be able to pay lower wages, they left to get out of the reign of the federal government's sphere and scope of control. The lower wages were merely a profiteering side benefit to the real reason they left America.

This is not true but also not false. Companies go where it is cheapest. Often times with low margin goods, labor is the biggest factor and utilizing cheap unskilled labor is a huge benefit. In other places the skill level needed to make something ensures that it will be a high value added operation and you keep it where the skill is.

Keep in mind there are much different types of products. I can 100% tell you the business I am in, labor prices are easily absorbed. My cost is about 65 euro per hour (fully burdened) for a laborer. I am also not making 10 cents on a part that is sold.

DanaT
10-17-2012, 14:23
Now you are mixing apples and moon rocks to put it mildly.

Let me put it this way...

I am?

I am telling you what is considered one of the, if not the most, business friendly countries is like for prices. They have VERY high labor prices.

I put a Barista as "unskilled labor". I highly suspect most people can work a coffee machine. Using unskilled labor, yet very expensive labor, in a VERY business friendly country results in $12 brownie and coffee.

You might not think it is true, but if you dont believe I will make you this bet.

Since you know French and could have moved there or China, I will take you out for a night drinking in Mullhouse (F). I pay. One night off to recover. Then we go to Basel for a night of drinking and you pay. We go from one of the most business unfriendly countries to one the most friendly. You will see what labor prices do to prices.

Ragnar
10-17-2012, 14:30
First of all I'm in no way a lib. I'd vote for honey boo boo before I vote for Obama.



She just endorsed Obama. That makes you a lib too. :rofl:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/post/honey-boo-boo-endorses-obama/2012/10/16/039d609e-17d8-11e2-9855-71f2b202721b_blog.html

Peace Warrior
10-17-2012, 14:33
No, you are misrepresenting my point. My point is that unskilled American workers think they are much more valuable and should be paid what they define as "fair". Fair to them is they should be driving a lexus.



A fair wage is what the market will bear. I will not pay someone $20/hr because that is a "fair wage" when I have 100 people in line that will take the job for $10/hr. Fair is what the market will pay.



I do not know anything about a McDonalds exemption so I will not argue it one way of another.



This is not true but also not false. Companies go where it is cheapest. Often times with low margin goods, labor is the biggest factor and utilizing cheap unskilled labor is a huge benefit. In other places the skill level needed to make something ensures that it will be a high value added operation and you keep it where the skill is.

Keep in mind there are much different types of products. I can 100% tell you the business I am in, labor prices are easily absorbed. My cost is about 65 euro per hour (fully burdened) for a laborer. I am also not making 10 cents on a part that is sold.
Wow, now you are mixing apples and Mars' rocks!

You are basing your experiences in Europe and incorrectly pertaining them to be indicative of the reality here in America. So knowing, your dispositions and metaphors are extremely flawed and at least an ocean apart. (i.e., Mixing apples and Mars' rocks)

I live here in America. I am speaking of the American way of doing things. Who cares what a croissant costs at a European BK as opposed to European mcd's as opposed to European star-bucks coffee?!? What I am speaking of are American jobs being done in China due to the federal government insisting that I must stop working due to a spider that may or may not be the last of its kind.

China doesn't give a ****, but here in America, I have to stop everything, lay off workers due to an arachnid less than the size of a dime, and then pay MILLIONS more so as to detour my building project!


**** YOU! I'm going to China and it has literally zero to do with pay or American wages and has only to do with federal regulations that are wholly trumped up ******* ideologies of the globalists so as to steal the wealth from the Middle Class Americans.

DanaT
10-17-2012, 14:42
Wow, now you are mixing apples and Mars' rocks!

You are basing your experiences in Europe and incorrectly pertaining them to be indicative of the reality here in America. So knowing, your dispositions and metaphors are extremely flawed and at least an ocean apart. (i.e., Mixing apples and Mars' rocks)

I live here in America. I am speaking of the American way of doing things. Who cares what a croissant costs at a European BK as opposed to European mcd's as opposed to European star-bucks coffee?!? What I am speaking of are American jobs being done in China due to the federal government insisting that I must stop working due to a spider that may or may not be the last of its kind.

China doesn't give a ****, but here in America, I have to stop everything, lay off workers due to an arachnid less than the size of a dime, and then pay MILLIONS more so as to detour my building project!


**** YOU! I'm going to China and it has literally zero to do with pay or American wages and has only to do with federal regulations that are wholly trumped up ******* ideologies of the globalists so as to steal the wealth from the Middle Class Americans.

Go to china. Have fun. I am not stopping you, in fact if it makes sense for you to do it, I encourage you to do it.

You ramble on about globalism and day that Europe has nothing to do with it. Sorry, there, but you are not only competing with labor in china for unskilled labor, but you are competing with skilled labor from Europe. I can easily give you an example. The worlds biggest medical device company (Medtronic) is based in Minnesota yet they have a very large factory in Morges, Switzerland. Americans are competing for jobs right there.

Your assumption is that all jobs go to china/india/etc. They dont. And once again, when you see an example of very business friendly/high wage and very business unfriendly/low wage (I would say try to get a 75% tax is pretty unfriendly) you want to simply stomp your feet and say "thats not how it is". Sorry, but that is how it is.

You are just used to living in a country that is pretty near the top as far as business friendly and wages are still not in the insane range.

And if you think business in China is unregulated, well, you need to learn a little about Chinese business. You dont get ANYTHING with out the local head politicians blessing (this in the USA is called BRIBES). China is known for corruption.

series1811
10-17-2012, 14:47
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

WTF?

Posts like this make me realize how we got stuck with Obama as President in the first place.

I blame our educational system.

CBennett
10-17-2012, 16:23
Did Romney seriously just claim that the reason jobs aren't coming back to the US was because there is a fake Apple store in Beijing?

Complete and utter Stupidity.

It all boils down to the cost of doing business overseas being cheaper than here.

^ and i think he explained why quite well and how to stop of help fix it from happening.

Ruggles
10-17-2012, 16:25
Uh, no, he didn't.

He brought it up as an example of the Chinese stealing intellectual property in regards to his comments about competing on a level playing field.

That is exactly what I heard as well.