Perspective on Lance Armstrong. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Detectorist
10-17-2012, 10:59
The media needs some perspective on Lance. There are headlines proclaiming that he 'doped'.

If he did, it wasn't an illegal drug or narcotic. it was a blood cell count enhancer for gods sake. If he did use it. it was against some rules, not against the law.

If he could be assured that no one else he was competing against did the same, then don't use it. Besides, I have no idea how he recovered from his cancer.

The media is doing his best to crucify him. They nedd perspective.

glocked1
10-17-2012, 11:06
All the top cycling pros dope. Lance is still a cycling machine, an average joe can't blood dope and then magically be at a level of a Lance Armstrong. I agree with you on the media coverage.

frizz
10-17-2012, 11:10
The media needs some perspective on Lance. There are headlines proclaiming that he 'doped'.

If he did, it wasn't an illegal drug or narcotic. it was a blood cell count enhancer for gods sake. If he did use it. it was against some rules, not against the law.

If he could be assured that no one else he was competing against did the same, then don't use it. Besides, I have no idea how he recovered from his cancer.

The media is doing his best to crucify him. They nedd perspective.
What's the perspective? He broke the rules, so he should be stripped of his wins when he was breaking the rules.

frizz
10-17-2012, 11:12
All the top cycling pros dope. Lance is still a cycling machine, an average joe can't blood dope and then magically be at a level of a Lance Armstrong. I agree with you on the media coverage.

They do? How are they getting away with it?

Regardless, cheating does not justify cheating.

Gallium
10-17-2012, 11:12
Why did he step down from his organization?

If I was innocent, there would not be a single voodoo doll of my accusers left in circulation.

SC Tiger
10-17-2012, 11:18
They do? How are they getting away with it?

Regardless, cheating does not justify cheating.

The same way he did at the time. They are better at hiding it than the testers are at catching it.

Now - no one cares because they did not win.

Harper
10-17-2012, 11:26
What's the perspective? He broke the rules, so he should be stripped of his wins when he was breaking the rules.

No, they should change the rules and defund the USADA. That money would be better spent on patients with kidney disease and cancer who are prescribed erythropoietin.

Brucev
10-17-2012, 11:29
No impressed with the whining of those who so loudly complain about LA. Why? Simply do not consider them credible. No reasonable person can have respect for such people.

ray9898
10-17-2012, 11:31
The same way he did at the time. They are better at hiding it than the testers are at catching it.

Now - no one cares because they did not win.


Absolutely. No matter how much people want to support him he cheated. This is not one or two guys claiming he did, it is about 15 team mates with intimate knowledge of what went on who admitting cheating them self.

Rancher
10-17-2012, 11:33
Nobody in this country except for a very few care about cycling, think we can all agree on that?

My question is in such an obsure sport to most, people really don't get the "team" aspect of the sport so why does he stay in the headlines?

We have football, baseball, basketball and any other sport you can think of have players test positive and they get maybe a days headline and are gone.

If Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, John Elway or any of the other major stars out there be found to have doped in some fashion should they and their team have all their records erased? McGuire got an asterisk for Gods sake.

I'm a Lance fan. Have been since he was a teenage triathlon phenom. I will continue to be.

Rancher

geminicricket
10-17-2012, 11:40
Synthetic EPO might be a drug.

However, the things I've heard about it is that Lance used blood drawn from him and reinserted his concentrated red blood cells during a race. That does NOT amount to a drug in my book.

I'll explain. If concentrated red blood cell density is an unfair advantage, then ban Kenyans from the Boston Marathon. Simply training at high altitude year-round and then flying to Boston with just enough time to adjust the circadian rhythm of the body to run that marathon gives Kenyans a measurably higher density of red blood cells than all their low-altitude competitors.

But, we don't ban Kenyans. As far as I understand it, Lance only mimicked the Kenyans. That is something that I think should be legal. It doesn't present to him a health hazard as long as his needles are clean. It doesn't present to him any long-term health risk, as for instance steroids do for athletes and body sculptors.

So, I don't revile Lance. He won a series of hyper-competitive races by being hyper competitive. As far as I know of it, he didn't use synthetic drugs. He didn't even use natural drugs like cocaine, as far as I know. Still, I am not and never have been a "racing enthusiast". If some dude name Gaston Surrender had won 7 consecutive Hotter Than Hell 100's in Wichita Falls and had only been pursued by doping agencies for doing the same stuff Lance might have done, I'd respect the hyper-competitive Frenchman winning the Texas race.

Fox
10-17-2012, 11:47
What evidence?

I read that Lance tested clean in all of the tests.

686Owner
10-17-2012, 11:56
What evidence?

I read that Lance tested clean in all of the tests.

Yeah, I'm confused.

Also, I assume they will be giving over 500 blood tests to whoever came in 2nd place and is now the winner since Lance isn't?

Gareth68
10-17-2012, 11:56
If Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, John Elway or any of the other major stars out there be found to have doped in some fashion should they and their team have all their records erased? McGuire got an asterisk for Gods sake.


Tom Brady did get found guilty of winning with the benefit of cheating.

No records erased, little outrage, evidence destroyed immediately, and will go into the hall of fame first ballot asterisks and all when he hangs them up.

:dunno:

SteveM
10-17-2012, 12:13
I'm not a doctor but could the dope/'roids caused his cancer?

VELO
10-17-2012, 12:38
Yeah, I'm confused.

Also, I assume they will be giving over 500 blood tests to whoever came in 2nd place and is now the winner since Lance isn't?

Not likely that would make much difference. From the USADA report:

"the judgment that the era in professional cycling which he
dominated as the patron of the peloton was the dirtiest ever. Twenty of the twenty-one podium finishers in the Tour de France from 1999 through 2005 have been directly tied to likely doping through admissions, sanctions, public investigations or exceeding the UCI hematocrit threshold."

I've been a long time Armstrong fan and am saddened by this report. I've not been able to read it in its entirety yet, but what I have been able to read, it's clear that Lance doped.

I've posted in all of the other Armstrong threads that I believed he was clean due to the countless tests performed on him. It appears now that he not only was the best rider (I do believe it's an even playing field among the top riders as the doping was so prevalent) but also the best doper.

I may change my tune after reading the entire report, but it's not likely that anything will bolster Lance's position that he was clean.

I know that for most here in America cycling is a non-issue. I'm a cyclist and a fan. With Armstrong's resignation as the chair of his own foundation and Nike dropping him due to "seemingly insurmountable evidence" that he doped, this is a dark day for me as a fan of professional cycling and Lance Armstrong.

Hawkeye16
10-17-2012, 12:43
I just dislike the idea that he took something against the rules that enhanced performance. He gained an unfair advantage over competitors and they do not get nearly as much credit for "winning" this way (by default since he is being stripped of his wins)

If I had legitimately worked my ass off and got second to him I would be beyond pissed off. Those other athletes deserve him being ridiculed and ran through the mud and so does he.

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Lampshade
10-17-2012, 12:44
The media needs some perspective on Lance. There are headlines proclaiming that he 'doped'.

If he did, it wasn't an illegal drug or narcotic. it was a blood cell count enhancer for gods sake.

Actually, testosterone and other illegal anabolic steroids are used in cycling.

Nestor
10-17-2012, 12:48
Crash is just louder and more painful when one falls from the very top.

IndianaMatt
10-17-2012, 12:51
The media needs some perspective on Lance. There are headlines proclaiming that he 'doped'.

If he did, it wasn't an illegal drug or narcotic. it was a blood cell count enhancer for gods sake. If he did use it. it was against some rules, not against the law.

If he could be assured that no one else he was competing against did the same, then don't use it. Besides, I have no idea how he recovered from his cancer.

The media is doing his best to crucify him. They nedd perspective.

It was an illegal drug by sporting standards and regulations. Definition is key when it comes to substances. In the States, alcohol is legal. In some Muslim countries, it is a severely banned illegal substance. In Amsterdam, you can light up a joint in a cafe, while in the States, well you know...

So yes, Armstrong used substances that, by the definition of the particular governing body, were unlawful.

frizz
10-17-2012, 12:59
Synthetic EPO might be a drug.

However, the things I've heard about it is that Lance used blood drawn from him and reinserted his concentrated red blood cells during a race. That does NOT amount to a drug in my book.

:upeyes:

Nobody said that it was a drug. It is a performance booster that is against the rules.

jp3975
10-17-2012, 13:38
Didnt tweenty something people say that he doped and encouraged others to do so as well?

larry_minn
10-17-2012, 14:00
What's the perspective? He broke the rules, so he should be stripped of his wins when he was breaking the rules.

He did? Any proof? I recall hundreds of tests that he PASSED. He fought this for yrs (after hr retired never mind what he delt with when he was compeating)
He finally said (words to effect) "I have spent too much time, I will not waste my time/money anymore" Once he said that it was blood in water for sharks.

What a witch hunt.

VELO
10-17-2012, 14:20
Hey Larry.

I used to think the very same way as you--even up until last week.

You should read this: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/ReasonedDecision.pdf

ray9898
10-17-2012, 14:24
He did? Any proof? I recall hundreds of tests that he PASSED. He fought this for yrs (after hr retired never mind what he delt with when he was compeating)

What a witch hunt.

Plenty of proof. There are plenty of first hand credible witnesses that saw him do it, who admitted doing it with him that have been punished them self, and who laid out the plan they used to keep from being caught. Not one ot two....over two dozen.

It wasn't a witch hunt, it was a sanctioning body doing their job. With as much evidence as they had it would have tarnished the sport forever if they ignored it while acting against others for the same thing.

Bruce H
10-17-2012, 14:38
Its about riding a damn bycycle for christ sakes. Who gives a rats ass with all the other problems facing the world. Everybody needs to get their head out of their ass and confront what is truely important.

happyguy
10-17-2012, 14:41
I used to admire Armstrong's athletic ability and tenacity.

I even read his book, "It's Not About the Bike."

Admiration is gone... he's just another cheat as far as I'm concerned.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

HarlDane
10-17-2012, 15:08
You have to be willfully ignorant to suggest that Lance wasn't doping; the mountain of evidence is just too enormous.

The whole field is juiced, when every rider in the peloton is coming in just a hair under the legal limit on red blood cell counts you can't chalk it up to coincidence.

ray9898
10-17-2012, 15:12
Its about riding a damn bycycle for christ sakes. Who gives a rats ass with all the other problems facing the world. Everybody needs to get their head out of their ass and confront what is truely important.

It is a business, one that provides a lively hood for many people other than the athletes. There are rules and regulations that must be enforced just as with any other business or it will dissolve along with all those associated jobs. So while it may not be the most important thing in the world it is still news worthy.

Snaps
10-17-2012, 15:16
He won, he destroyed them and the french have been trying to bury him since.He got tired of fighting it years after he'd retired and been clean so he just stopped.

Best to ever do it.

fnfalman
10-17-2012, 15:43
You have to be willfully ignorant to suggest that Lance wasn't doping; the mountain of evidence is just too enormous.

Then how come he wasn't debarred? Which blood tests that showed he was positive with performance enhancement drugs?

The whole field is juiced, when every rider in the peloton is coming in just a hair under the legal limit on red blood cell counts you can't chalk it up to coincidence.

Then what's the problem? Everybody doped up, it's an even playing field. Lance still won fair and square.

Nestor
10-17-2012, 16:08
I used to admire Armstrong's athletic ability and tenacity.

I even read his book, "It's Not About the Bike."

Admiration is gone... he's just another cheat as far as I'm concerned.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Yup. Pretty much the same here, except for reading his book.

TK-421
10-17-2012, 16:28
Synthetic EPO might be a drug.

However, the things I've heard about it is that Lance used blood drawn from him and reinserted his concentrated red blood cells during a race. That does NOT amount to a drug in my book.


Taking blood out, letting your body replenish the lost blood, and then putting that blood back in before the race is against the rules. So while it might not amount to a drug in your book, it should still amount to a rule being broken, because the rules says he's not allowed to do what he supposedly did.

glocked1
10-17-2012, 17:15
Lance Armstrong still is an amazing athlete, doped or not (he has never failed a drug test by the way). He was beating pro triathletes when he was 15 years old.

TK-421
10-17-2012, 17:23
Lance Armstrong still is an amazing athlete, doped or not (he has never failed a drug test by the way). He was beating pro triathletes when he was 15 years old.

I thought he had failed like two? Maybe not, but either way, I don't care if he was doped or not, seven consecutive tour-de-france wins is still amazing. Besides, if everybody was doping, like others have said, then I'm sure he could've done the exact same thing if everybody was dope free.

I personally haven't formed an opinion on him, since I don't know all of the facts. I think it's possible he was doping and used the cancer treatments as a way to explain it, but it's also possible he was entirely dope free, and people are just jumping on him because he won so much. I do hope he didn't dope though.

winchester62
10-17-2012, 17:36
Many of you defending him haven't read and understood how he (and the rest of them) beat the tests for years and years. And he wasn't tested hundreds of times as he claimed. He's a cheat and an a-hole to boot. I know. I've met him numerous times.

Harper
10-17-2012, 17:37
I'm surprised more people aren't upset the federal government gives the USADA $10 million a year to hunt down athletes for increasing their red blood cell count.

fnfalman
10-17-2012, 17:39
Many of you defending him haven't read and understood how he (and the rest of them) beat the tests for years and years. And he wasn't tested hundreds of times as he claimed. He's a cheat and an a-hole to boot. I know. I've met him numerous times.

So, the doper teammates who got caught now wanted to drag Armstrong down with them. What does that say about their characters? Misery loves company?

Harper
10-17-2012, 17:43
Many of you defending him haven't read and understood how he (and the rest of them) beat the tests for years and years.

I don't care that he cheated. It's a stupid rule and all the top competitors break it. Cycling is a stupid sport, you have to cheat to win and everyone hates you if they find out what they already know. There's no point, you might as well punch yourself in the nuts(if you still have them) and call it a day. Armstrong is a great athlete who competed in a stupid sport.

longhair
10-17-2012, 17:50
Just another Pete Rose. You break the rules, you pay the price.

HarlDane
10-17-2012, 18:43
Then how come he wasn't debarred? Which blood tests that showed he was positive with performance enhancement drugs?Testing isn't the only way to prove someone was doping, it's just the easiest.



Then what's the problem? Everybody doped up, it's an even playing field. Lance still won fair and square.I totally agree, the playing field was level and he beat the pants off the best in the world for damn near a decade, I'm still a big fan of the guy.

Glocksanity
10-17-2012, 20:24
Too bad the government doesn't go after the crooks on Wall Street with the same fervor they do with athletes.

HarlDane
10-17-2012, 20:28
Too bad the government doesn't go after the crooks on Wall Street with the same fervor they do with athletes.The government isn't going after Lance.

winchester62
10-17-2012, 20:54
Ya. Don't get me wrong, he's a bad ass athlete. And I'm sure they all cheated, but screw em all. Lance is still a jerk, and while I don't wish him ill will, I don't care that he got knocked off his pedestal. Maybe it will give the egomaniac some humility.

Fiery Red XIII
10-17-2012, 21:06
The government isn't going after Lance.

No, they just go after baseball players and cry about replacement NFL refs


Red:cool:

Harper
10-17-2012, 21:09
The government isn't going after Lance.

An organization who gets 2/3 of their funding from the federal government is and that's close enough.

frizz
10-17-2012, 22:58
I'm surprised more people aren't upset the federal government gives the USADA $10 million a year to hunt down athletes for increasing their red blood cell count.

This has no relevance to the discussion. Even if this is a misallocation of resources, it does not change the fact that he cheated.

frizz
10-17-2012, 23:02
He did? Any proof? I recall hundreds of tests that he PASSED. He fought this for yrs (after hr retired never mind what he delt with when he was compeating)
He finally said (words to effect) "I have spent too much time, I will not waste my time/money anymore" Once he said that it was blood in water for sharks.

What a witch hunt.

The proof is overwhelming. I note that Penn State's Sandusky still claims innocence despite the mountain of evidence against him.