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lopak
10-17-2012, 13:21
I'm having a real problem with the current political climate. Seems worse than previous years. Makes me want to stand on a street corner and shout.:steamed:

Are cops more "conservative" than the average citizen? Why?

I contend cops are likely to question motivation and agenda. Having seen and sorted liers, cheats, and drunks, they have learned to recognize the same. The rose-colored glasses come off.

I contend cops are less likely to want to be seen as "kinder" and "gentler" as a person, state or nation. They see an underlying struggle for advantage daily.

Dealing with reality, they see how thin the veneer of humanity can be. They see how fast things can go downhill.

They see fellow citizens floating along, blinders on, oblivious, wanting their "fair" share. True citizens of the world - the rest of the world wants their "fair" share, too.

They see how important "old-fashioned" values can be - family, religion, self reliance, personal responsibility - shoring up the flaws of humanity.

Are there any takeaways for the general population from this? Is anybody really listening? Hello?

Deep breaths. I'm too old to grind my teeth like this.

Just_plinking
10-17-2012, 13:30
I'll play, since you said general population. A lot of cops belittle the constitution, and get their paycheck from the government... so I'd say no :tongueout:. (that was supposed to be a little tongue in cheek)

Morris
10-17-2012, 16:39
The September 2012 Police Magazine published results of their polling. The results showed peace officers overwhelmingly conservative in values and overwhelmingly supportive of RKBA issues (contrary to what you may hear or read from groups on both sides).

Agent6-3/8
10-17-2012, 16:48
IMO, yes.

The majority of cops I know and work with are very conservative. I think it's mostly due to our unvarnished view of reality and society.


Posted from my iPhone 4s via Outdoor Hub mobile

Rabbi
10-17-2012, 16:51
The September 2012 Police Magazine published results of their polling. The results showed peace officers overwhelmingly conservative in values and overwhelmingly supportive of RKBA issues (contrary to what you may hear or read from groups on both sides).

I saw that and from what I see, it is fairly accurate.

At some of the bigger unionized/collective bargaining agencies, you see a little more lean towards liberalism but I think the trend is still conservative.

Vigilant
10-17-2012, 17:30
Plenty of liberals inside the fence where I'm at. Too many.

blueiron
10-17-2012, 17:56
I am libertarian [not a Libertarian].

Government has no business minimizing individual rights for the benefit of any groups. They should have minimal interest in over-regulation of business. Both are the antithesis of the Left. Screw equal outcomes - the concept and reality of it is un-natural to nature and humanity.

As far as conservatives go, I deplore social conservatism and want all religions' influences out of government. Religion as a guiding and moral concept doesn't bother me, but the daily business of humanity should be conducted with the concept that a deity cannot be proven or disproven to current human understanding. While the Western concept of justice owes much to the Judeo-Christian traditions and morality, we as a culture cannot be equally and concurrently accommodating to every religious concept from new-ageism, Shintoism, Buddhism, Wiccanism, etc. We are a Western culture and it has worked for us for centuries.

Likewise, I don't care what consenting adults do in private or who they elect to form a union with. Government should allow adult prostitution in the Nevada model and oversee it as a public health matter. Conservatives need to butt out of the bedrooms.

blueiron
10-17-2012, 17:58
And yes, there are plenty of 'social workers with guns and uniforms' out crusading in my area.

Vigilant
10-17-2012, 18:43
Quote from Blueiron: ".... a deity cannot be proven or disproven to current human understanding."

With respect, there are those who would beg to differ with that statement. Our senses do not tell the whole story. This much I can guarantee.

Vigilant
10-17-2012, 18:43
Even so, I do believe in separation of church and state.

Vigilant
10-17-2012, 18:44
Buck Farack.

blueiron
10-17-2012, 18:44
Quote from Blueiron: ".... a deity cannot be proven or disproven to current human understanding."

With respect, there are those who would beg to differ with that statement. Our senses do not tell the whole story. This much I can guarantee.

I am using the Scientific Method to quantify existence. Faith is another matter all together.

Fiery Red XIII
10-17-2012, 18:57
Most cops I know are VERY conservative...many even teach shooting/defense/Carry classes on the side.

Red

packsaddle
10-17-2012, 22:11
I am using the Scientific Method to quantify existence. Faith is another matter all together.

do you also use the scientific method to quantify love and logic and truth and rationality and math and trust?

are they not also part of our existence?

not trying to debate, just pointing out the flaw in your premise.

Vigilant
10-17-2012, 22:20
do you also use the scientific method to quantify love and logic and truth and rationality and math and trust?

are they not also part of our existence?

not trying to debate, just pointing out the flaw in your premise.

It's all good. The dirty dealer meant no harm. Too much geritol can do that to you. :rofl:

Vigilant
10-17-2012, 22:21
Buck Farack.

lawman800
10-18-2012, 00:16
Conservatism at its base wants to stick to the law and fundamental beliefs of the system. Liberalism/Progressivism wants to interpret it as we go and fight the system and change the system to do what they want.

Guess which one fits law enforcement better? It's really that simple.

Goldendog Redux
10-18-2012, 00:28
I am libertarian [not a Libertarian].

Government has no business minimizing individual rights for the benefit of any groups. They should have minimal interest in over-regulation of business. Both are the antithesis of the Left. Screw equal outcomes - the concept and reality of it is un-natural to nature and humanity.

As far as conservatives go, I deplore social conservatism and want all religions' influences out of government. Religion as a guiding and moral concept doesn't bother me, but the daily business of humanity should be conducted with the concept that a deity cannot be proven or disproven to current human understanding. While the Western concept of justice owes much to the Judeo-Christian traditions and morality, we as a culture cannot be equally and concurrently accommodating to every religious concept from new-ageism, Shintoism, Buddhism, Wiccanism, etc. We are a Western culture and it has worked for us for centuries.



If you said this in briefing most cops would look at you with a drop of drool on their lip and then the conversation would turn to football.

MF

Glock Holliday
10-18-2012, 02:19
If you said this in briefing most cops would look at you with a drop of drool on their lip and then the conversation would turn to football.

MF

Maybe so, but I am in lockstep with everything blueiron said. I started out more conservative than my parents were, but enforcing the law as a career (30+ years so far) has made me more and more libertarian.

I really believe that the government that governs least governs best. I really don't care what consenting adults do behind closed doors (and I believe that it's more about control than morals for most of the people that do care).

IMO, people that hurt other people should be the main focus in law enforcement.

merlynusn
10-18-2012, 04:15
I'm more libertarian. Have been since before it was "cool" to be one.

Also, there is no separation of church and state. It does not exist. All that exists is saying that the government cannot establish a religion, not that religion needs to be out of the public eye. If I want to put up a nativity scene, I should be allowed to. But in the same space, you can put a menorah, etc.

But I digress... I think most cops are "conservatives" because they see the way the world really is. They see the failed policies of both parties enacted and understand what really works. Nothing like getting into a foot chase and then a fight with an 18 year old who is in section 8 housing with 4 flat screen TVs, collecting disability, buying steak and lobster with their ebt card and driving a $50,000 Lincoln/Cadillac. Liberals would tend to call that 18 year old disadvantaged. Conservatives would tend to call that 18 year old milking the system. Which one do you think we'd agree with?

NEOH212
10-18-2012, 04:24
I'm having a real problem with the current political climate. Seems worse than previous years. Makes me want to stand on a street corner and shout.:steamed:

Are cops more "conservative" than the average citizen? Why?

I contend cops are likely to question motivation and agenda. Having seen and sorted liers, cheats, and drunks, they have learned to recognize the same. The rose-colored glasses come off.

I contend cops are less likely to want to be seen as "kinder" and "gentler" as a person, state or nation. They see an underlying struggle for advantage daily.

Dealing with reality, they see how thin the veneer of humanity can be. They see how fast things can go downhill.

They see fellow citizens floating along, blinders on, oblivious, wanting their "fair" share. True citizens of the world - the rest of the world wants their "fair" share, too.

They see how important "old-fashioned" values can be - family, religion, self reliance, personal responsibility - shoring up the flaws of humanity.

Are there any takeaways for the general population from this? Is anybody really listening? Hello?

Deep breaths. I'm too old to grind my teeth like this.



Those of us that see the value in old fashioned values and morality just aren't trendy or up with the times I guess. :upeyes:





I'm glad about that. There some things that just don't get old or go out of style no matter how old they are. Some older things just work better than what we have now and morality and good old fashioned values are just some of those things.

As for cops being more conservative than most of the population, I would have to say that most of the ones I know fit this description.


I'm thankful for that as I know many fine conservative policemen and police women.

:cool:

Glock Holliday
10-18-2012, 06:46
... Conservatives would tend to call that 18 year old milking the system. Which one do you think we'd agree with?


If the public knew how common this really is, there would be a revolution. I wonder when the taxpayers will figure out that they subsidize the criminal element? While I concede that not every person receiving public assistance is a criminal, almost every criminal I run into receives public assistance (and since they don't have a day job they are able to prowl the streets at night).

scottydl
10-18-2012, 07:33
If the public knew how common this really is, there would be a revolution. I wonder when the taxpayers will figure out that they subsidize the criminal element?

Romney referred to this with his 47% comment that was "secretly" recorded some weeks back, and you can see what happened to him. He was lambasted in the media (for essentially telling the truth) and had to backpedal in the effort of political survival, and the public either doesn't know any different or doesn't want to believe what he was talking about.

The Fed welfare folks even acknowledge that there is a 50-75% rate of misuse and unaccountability in the system. Yet the system just keeps on going with our tax dollars. Huh?!?! Nobody seems to want to make the requirements for stringent for the few legitimate users, therefore all the leaches get a free ride too.

I am using the Scientific Method to quantify existence. Faith is another matter all together.

As far as proving Christianity, the book "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell scientifically and realistically proves the existence and claims of Jesus Christ when he was on Earth. I'd encourage anyone to read it who doubts on that basis alone.

Getting back to topic, yes cops are more conservative in general. We know the value of intact families and traditional household rules, regardless of what ballot box we check.

Ftttu
10-18-2012, 07:35
We conservatives know what happens when you feed the bears. When people have too many social safety nets where personal responsibility is done away with, we have this HUGE *****ing mess we're in. I don't want to get into a full-blown discussion of issues, but it is so sad what has happened to our society where the government takes the place of a father. We boyz and girlz sportin' the badge have to deal with these 'victims' of society.

scottydl
10-18-2012, 07:54
Also, there is no separation of church and state. It does not exist. All that exists is saying that the government cannot establish a religion, not that religion needs to be out of the public eye.

Thank you for pointing out that Constitutional fact. The "separation" phrase is nowhere in any of America's founding documents or amendments. It was a concept that Thomas Jefferson addressed in a letter to a group of Danbury Baptists who were concerned about the potential government discrimination based on their religious denomination. Jefferson never suggested that government and religion should have no relationship whatsoever. I wrote 17 pages on the topic if anyone is interested. ;)

lawman800
10-18-2012, 08:24
It's simply freedom OF religion to worship as you wish or don't wish, but not freedom FROM religion in that you cannot block everyone else, including religious displays in public places.

Vigilant
10-18-2012, 11:50
Thank you for pointing out that Constitutional fact. The "separation" phrase is nowhere in any of America's founding documents or amendments. It was a concept that Thomas Jefferson addressed in a letter to a group of Danbury Baptists who were concerned about the potential government discrimination based on their religious denomination. Jefferson never suggested that government and religion should have no relationship whatsoever. I wrote 17 pages on the topic if anyone is interested. ;)

My thoughts exactly.

Bren
10-18-2012, 13:04
It's simply freedom OF religion to worship as you wish or don't wish, but not freedom FROM religion in that you cannot block everyone else, including religious displays in public places.

Freedom "from" religion normally refers to government endorsement or using public resources that we all pay for to benefit a particular religion, or pro-religion over anti-religion - not blocking private people from expressing religious views but no letting them have public funds and resources to do it.

Bren
10-18-2012, 13:08
Thank you for pointing out that Constitutional fact. The "separation" phrase is nowhere in any of America's founding documents or amendments. It was a concept that Thomas Jefferson addressed in a letter to a group of Danbury Baptists who were concerned about the potential government discrimination based on their religious denomination. Jefferson never suggested that government and religion should have no relationship whatsoever. I wrote 17 pages on the topic if anyone is interested. ;)

If you think that, your research and writing weren't very good. Jefferson, whose writing was the basis for the 1st Amendment, was describing what it means for the government to "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or to prohibit the free exercise thereof." When the government neither benefits nor inhibits religion, there is a "wall of separation between church and state."

randrew379
10-18-2012, 14:03
Romney referred to this with his 47% comment that was "secretly" recorded some weeks back, and you can see what happened to him. He was lambasted in the media (for essentially telling the truth) and had to backpedal in the effort of political survival, and the public either doesn't know any different or doesn't want to believe what he was talking about.

The Fed welfare folks even acknowledge that there is a 50-75% rate of misuse and unaccountability in the system. Yet the system just keeps on going with our tax dollars. Huh?!?! Nobody seems to want to make the requirements for stringent for the few legitimate users, therefore all the leaches get a free ride too.



As far as proving Christianity, the book "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell scientifically and realistically proves the existence and claims of Jesus Christ when he was on Earth. I'd encourage anyone to read it who doubts on that basis alone.

Getting back to topic, yes cops are more conservative in general. We know the value of intact families and traditional household rules, regardless of what ballot box we check.

All he does in that book is confirm his biases without proof.

Hack
10-18-2012, 15:47
All he does in that book is confirm his biases without proof.

Curious. What do you have to back that up with?

Kingarthurhk
10-18-2012, 17:30
We are a traditional and conservative household. My wife worked until the kids came along. I have known some liberal folks in my shop and we have been friends. But, then again, I get along with most folks until they try very hard for me not to get along with them.

lawman800
10-18-2012, 19:43
Freedom "from" religion normally refers to government endorsement or using public resources that we all pay for to benefit a particular religion, or pro-religion over anti-religion - not blocking private people from expressing religious views but no letting them have public funds and resources to do it.

You know what is your freedom FROM religion? Don't practice it or just walk away from others who practice it.

Government doesn't have the authority to endorse or approve one religion over any other, but to the extent they offer the same services to anyone regardless, a religious organization can certain use public facilities and do their business under the Civic Center laws.

Lots of religious clubs and churches use schools or city facilities to host their events and some do it regularly. Nothing wrong with it as long as they go through the same procedures as anyone else who wants to use the facilities.

Morris
10-18-2012, 22:49
A priest, a rabbi and a imam walk into a bar . . .

RetailNinja
10-19-2012, 00:40
Libertarian + environmentalish greenish partyish. Most of the folks i work with are environmentally friendly conservatives.

The best way to find out who is what is turn all of the admin's radios to NPR while they're out at lunch..

Vigilant
10-19-2012, 01:23
Right before he dies, this rich old gent gives a Priest, a Minister and a Rabbi each a large sum of money, and asks each to see that he is buried with their portion after he dies....

randrew379
10-21-2012, 19:24
Curious. What do you have to back that up with?

Sorry.I guess this really belongs in GTRI, but McDowell ignores evidence that contradicts what he wishes to believe and will sometimes use others' writings out of context. His books seem to be aimed at those who already believe or want to believe. In the very first chapteri he cites Titus as proof of Jesus' divinity: using a book cobbled together from fragments of various sources over centuries is far from "scientific". Scholars have determined that nothing in the New Testament was. written by eyewitnesses to the events of Jesus' life. In some of McDowell's writings he offers the works various Josephus as proof of some aspects of the Christian tradition: again, scholarly investigation has debunked this- those sections in Josephus have been shown to be forgeries added at a later date.

I try to be respectful of folks' religious views, but McDowell's "evidence" falls short.

WarCry
10-21-2012, 21:02
Most cops I know are VERY conservative...many even teach shooting/defense/Carry classes on the side.

No offense intended to you personally, but the way this was phrased kinda pisses me off.

I'm not a conservative - though I'm not a liberal, either. I vote and support whoever supports my beliefs the closest.

But saying that teaching shooting/defense/carry classes is somehow indicative of political or social views is just wrong. Some of the loudest voices for gun rights in the IL government are Democrats and VERY liberal on other issues.

Guns are NOT the not nearly as polarizing as extremists on either end of the spectrum would have you believe.

lawman800
10-21-2012, 21:22
WarCry is right. Firearms is not and should not be a left or right thing, except for those at the fringe who make it that way.

Howard Dean from Vermont has an A rating from the NRA on gun issues, as do a lot of Democrats in the CA state legislature. Some Republicans get D or F ratings because they don't support gun issues. It happens.

NRA is a non-partisan lobby group and should stay that way.

That being said, in generalities, yes, the Left is more anti-gun than the Right, but it is not by far a left v. right issue.

Glock Holliday
10-22-2012, 02:39
...Firearms is not and should not be a left or right thing, except for those at the fringe who make it that way...

Interesting observation. The Pacific Northwest has some of the most liberal politicians in the country (Blue Steel Democrats) yet firearms are easy to buy and CWP's are easy to get (after the background check).

BTW, I also appreciate the NRA's non-partisan stance. We need good people on both sides of the aisle.

Hack
10-22-2012, 11:21
Interesting observation. The Pacific Northwest has some of the most liberal politicians in the country (Blue Steel Democrats) yet firearms are easy to buy and CWP's are easy to get (after the background check).

BTW, I also appreciate the NRA's non-partisan stance. We need good people on both sides of the aisle.

That is interesting. And, I agree.

Sent from my communicator.

Bren
10-22-2012, 11:59
You know what is your freedom FROM religion? Don't practice it or just walk away from others who practice it.

Government doesn't have the authority to endorse or approve one religion over any other, but to the extent they offer the same services to anyone regardless, a religious organization can certain use public facilities and do their business under the Civic Center laws.

Lots of religious clubs and churches use schools or city facilities to host their events and some do it regularly. Nothing wrong with it as long as they go through the same procedures as anyone else who wants to use the facilities.


That is all correct. It also is consistent with what I said.

Morris
10-22-2012, 12:00
The Pacific Northwest has some of the most liberal politicians in the country (Blue Steel Democrats) yet firearms are easy to buy and CWP's are easy to get (after the background check).

That didn't come without a fight. Remember I-676? If it wasn't for conservative, pro-gun cops supporting the RKBA for ALL, it would have succeeded. And we forget the Cascade Curtain that keeps the liberal sides of the state in some sort of check.

Overwhelmingly, cops are conservative or conservative Libertarian in the PNW but they get overshadowed by leftists, liberals and the ilk who hire chief's to march in their mantras.

Hack
10-22-2012, 12:04
Sorry.I guess this really belongs in GTRI, but McDowell ignores evidence that contradicts what he wishes to believe and will sometimes use others' writings out of context. His books seem to be aimed at those who already believe or want to believe. In the very first chapteri he cites Titus as proof of Jesus' divinity: using a book cobbled together from fragments of various sources over centuries is far from "scientific". Scholars have determined that nothing in the New Testament was. written by eyewitnesses to the events of Jesus' life. In some of McDowell's writings he offers the works various Josephus as proof of some aspects of the Christian tradition: again, scholarly investigation has debunked this- those sections in Josephus have been shown to be forgeries added at a later date.

I try to be respectful of folks' religious views, but McDowell's "evidence" falls short.

Have you read the New Evidence that Demands A Verdict? Same overall author, however, there is a lot in there that is not just from him, if I remember correctly. I understand that there are some seminaries that use this as a text.

As to scholars: any particular ones that you would like to cite concerning their research? Also, what about the writings of the early Church Fathers?

Extant evidence is a little harder to come by from time to time, but I am guessing that you would like to look at a complete compilation of such.

When it comes to matters concerning faith, faith is not something that is always a matter that is by scientific study. The earliest Orthodox writings are usually some of the most reliable in my experience, however it is a lot of study. If you are interested there are seminaries as well as some of the larger public libraries that has a good collection of that kind of thing.

It also helps to realize that the New Testament was put together by the Orthodox church sometime before the Great Schism between Roman Catholicism and the rest of the Orthodox church. The rest of the bible, some 60% of it is the Ta nach, which is the Torah, and writings of the Jewish faith; which was initially put together before modern day Judaism.

lawman800
10-23-2012, 00:06
That is all correct. It also is consistent with what I said.

I know, we agree and we both have studied ConLaw more than any sane mortal should have to.

It's just the different presentation and angle you give it that makes it seem different.

blk69stang
10-23-2012, 00:11
Everyone I work with is overwhelmingly conservative. There was this one guy (grew up in CA, go figure) who was a raging liberal and just couldn't figure out why all the rest of us were conservative. Last I heard he transferred to an OA. My guess, based on his ideas about private gun ownership, would be that he joined the BATFE. LOL.