Lead in a Glock barrel formula [Archive] - Glock Talk

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breacher1
10-19-2012, 08:44
is their a specific recipe or even a general rule for loading cast lead to shoot out of a stock G35 barrel to avoid leading. I.E. Heavy boolit & slow powder or light lead boolit (140 gr) & faster powder?

Just picked up a G35 for club matches and since we don't have to meet any power factors I'll just be loading real light plinking loads.

I hate to go aftermarket barrel because my experience with my G32 40 cal conversion barrel is a little bit of a PIA. It never leads but the chamber is so tight (KKM or EFK? don't remember) I have to hand check every single loaded rd to see if it will chamber all the way. I get about a 15 to 20% failure rate due to the Glock bulge. (LE range pickup brass) I then toss those rds in a special bucket for my Steyr M40 with its generous chamber.

I load on a Dillon SDB so there's no way to remove the bulge w/o getting another press.

Not real worried about the bulges since I never load anything hotter than the mid range loads in the loading manuals.

Suggestions? Powders? TIA

G-30Jet
10-19-2012, 11:39
My experience with cheap lead bullets in a stock barrel shows erratic bullet flight. That being said, laser-cast bullets are of higher quality and work pretty well. They are very dirty compared to jacketed bullets however and it requires more gun scrubbing. There is definitely something to the lead build up issue that has been said to contribute to KB's. Mostly in the police KB's, they can be attributed to re-chambering rounds multiple times causing bullet set back. Pressure rises and the KB happens.

dkf
10-19-2012, 11:42
Pick up some of these.
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=79&category=5&secondary=11&keywords=

Pick a powder you can find some data for. Start low work your way up to find a load which gives you the velocity, accuracy and oes not foul the barrel. The 18bhn bullets in the link are pretty hard and the .40 even out of the G35 is not going to launch them fast.

If for some reason you have issues with the "bulge" (newer barrels with light to mid loads should not be an issue) you could always pick up a cheap single stage and a pass through dies to remove the "bulge".

DWARREN123
10-19-2012, 12:23
I have shot lead out of a G22 and G23. Used hardcast bullets and a medium charge for jacketed bullets. I keep them under 1,000 FPS and do not have a leading problem.
Hope this helps. :supergrin:

WiskyT
10-19-2012, 14:53
I use cast bullets so soft you can dig your fingernail into them. A 180 grain bullet and 3.5 Bullseye will shoot very tight groups and not lead. It will cycle the action and is prolly running around 800fps. If you wan 950fps, use 5.2 Unique and you'll still get tight groups and no leading.

If you use heavier charges of fast powder, like Tightgroup, like all the wingnuts insist on doing, you will lead your barrel in 10 shots so bad it will look like a sewer pipe and your bullets will fly end over end to the target. Fast powder:light charge, medium powder: light or full charge. That is your formula.

SJ 40
10-19-2012, 14:56
With a good medium hard cast or better bullet I do not have leading problems with my factory Glock barrels.
I find they do not lead up as much or as easily as conventional rifled barrels and clean up much more easily.
What I do recommend is to clean your barrel thoroughly between jacketed and lead and vise versa. For a mild,clean load one of the powders you may want to consider is WST,underneath a good cast 180 gr. bullet. SJ 40

sig357fan
10-19-2012, 15:12
all barrels lead, its how much that can create problems.

a harder bullet ran too slow can lead just as much as a softer bullet ran too fast.

you have to find the right mix of bullet hardness and velocity for your particular barrel.

I’ve had barrels where you could shoot a couple hundred rounds before it needed a cleaning, and other barrels that leaded severely in 25 rounds.


I cast my own bullets and generally run a heavier bullet cast of wheel weights at a bhn of 10-12 at less than 1000 fps.

Glock barrels are prone to leading so what ever load you develop, keep an eye on the lead build up, don’t just look down the barrel, field strip, run a bore brush through and inspect the bore.

Lead build up can be removed with a bore brush wrapped with “Chore Boy” copper scouring pad (be sure to use the copper, not copper clad steel) , I’ve heard of others using a mixture of white vinegar and peroxide but have never done this myself.

sig357fan

WiskyT
10-19-2012, 15:46
This is 10 rounds at 25 yards offhand

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee460/Wiskyt/PC200010.jpg

DoctaGlockta
10-19-2012, 16:58
This is 10 rounds at 25 yards offhand

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee460/Wiskyt/PC200010.jpg

I'm still hurt that you are holding out on where you get those targets. The 'WhiskyT target paper' mystery continue :crying:

greenlion
10-19-2012, 17:00
Formula:

1 Glock + 0 Lead bullets = no barrel leading

F106 Fan
10-19-2012, 17:26
is their a specific recipe or even a general rule for loading cast lead to shoot out of a stock G35 barrel to avoid leading. I.E. Heavy boolit & slow powder or light lead boolit (140 gr) & faster powder?



You have been given several bits of advice. In the end, you are going to have to go shoot some lead bullets and see how it works out.

I did this with my G21SF and I didn't notice any leading with S&S Casting 200 gr LSWC (.45 ACP). I still bought a KKM barrel...

I use a Lewis Lead Remover for all of my .45 barrels, whether they need it or not. Brownell's carries them. They are just a washer made of brass mesh the you drag through the barrel on a rubber size-adjustable plug. They work well and you can see the lead flakes on the mesh - if there are any.

Richard

WiskyT
10-19-2012, 18:56
I'm still hurt that you are holding out on where you get those targets. The 'WhiskyT target paper' mystery continue :crying:

Staples. I'm supporting Bain Capital.

breacher1
10-19-2012, 19:20
thanks for all the great advice.
I actually have about 1000 Missouri Bullets but they are the 140 gr sized at .401. I was trying to simulate 9mm recoil out of my G32 with the 40 conversion barrel in the stock duty class at the NRA PPC Nats. I think I ran 4.0 gr of Ramshot Competition and then later 4.0 gr of some old Win Superlite behind the 140 gr bullet and it was a soft shooter. But like I said before, I had to chamber check every single rd to avoid FTFeed.

I assume the chamber on my new G35 will be a little more forgiving - gonna go try it Sat. morn.

I have about 1000 moly coated 180 gr pills I bought at a gunshow and they are supposed to be BH 17 or 18. Maybe I'll try one of my slower powders like Ramshot Silhouette or HS-6 with those and see what happens. I also have a couple of medium burners- HP-38 and Universal Clays I could try.

If all else fails there's always the plated Berrys to fall back on for a few more bucks.

F106 Fan
10-19-2012, 20:36
If all else fails there's always the plated Berrys to fall back on for a few more bucks.

If you have to move away from lead, consider the jacketed bullets at Precision Delta. They are price competitive with Berry's plated bullets without all the limitations.

Richard

countrygun
10-19-2012, 20:43
all barrels lead, its how much that can create problems.

a harder bullet ran too slow can lead just as much as a softer bullet ran too fast.

you have to find the right mix of bullet hardness and velocity for your particular barrel.

Iíve had barrels where you could shoot a couple hundred rounds before it needed a cleaning, and other barrels that leaded severely in 25 rounds.


I cast my own bullets and generally run a heavier bullet cast of wheel weights at a bhn of 10-12 at less than 1000 fps.

Glock barrels are prone to leading so what ever load you develop, keep an eye on the lead build up, donít just look down the barrel, field strip, run a bore brush through and inspect the bore.

Lead build up can be removed with a bore brush wrapped with ďChore BoyĒ copper scouring pad (be sure to use the copper, not copper clad steel) , Iíve heard of others using a mixture of white vinegar and peroxide but have never done this myself.

sig357fan

This is good advice for all reloaders,

The balance of hardness, velocity and powder is subject to many variables. I can take a hard lead bullet that someone swears "doesn't lead at all" and I can make it lead a bore badly.

I can also use a bullet that some might think is "too soft" and come up with a pretty clean load.

It is really part of the "fun" of casting.

shotgunred
10-19-2012, 22:21
Just picked up a G35 for club matches and since we don't have to meet any power factors I'll just be loading real light plinking loads.


I load on a Dillon SDB so there's no way to remove the bulge w/o getting another press.

Not real worried about the bulges since I never load anything hotter than the mid range loads in the loading manuals.

Suggestions? Powders? TIA

Sounds like you do not have your sizing die adjusted all the way down.

dwhite53
10-20-2012, 06:24
I find Unique works extremely well in my cast bullet loads.

Cleaning the barrel every 100 rounds or so keeps the
buildup manageable. But I have run up to 200 through
my Glock without cleaning without any problems.

I do find that lead cleans out of my Glock barrel easier
than my conventionally rifled barrels.

All the Best,
D. White

F106 Fan
10-20-2012, 08:53
Cleaning the barrel every 100 rounds or so keeps the buildup manageable. But I have run up to 200 through my Glock without cleaning without any problems.

I do find that lead cleans out of my Glock barrel easier
than my conventionally rifled barrels.

All the Best,
D. White

I ran a couple of hundred lead .45s through my stock G21SF and buildup wasn't readily apparent.

The problem I had with other responses I had read about the Glock leading issue was that everybody wanted to clean at around 200 rounds. And they seemed fine with that!

If I get to play as long as I want, I might go through 500 rounds in a day. Maybe more! And I don't want to call 'Time Out' to clean the barrel. I came to shoot, not clean guns.

I bought the KKM barrel so I don't have to think about leading. I'll clean the gun when I get around to it.

RIchard

sig357fan
10-20-2012, 12:24
....The problem I had with other responses I had read about the Glock leading issue was that everybody wanted to clean at around 200 rounds. And they seemed fine with that!

If I get to play as long as I want, I might go through 500 rounds in a day. Maybe more! And I don't want to call 'Time Out' to clean the barrel. I came to shoot, not clean guns...

RIchard

+1 Richard,

Running lead bullets in a Glock barrel means more frequent cleaning than what you would ever do with jacketed bullets, which means cleaning at the range if you do any quantity shooting. Granted, itís not that difficult or time consuming if done regularly with the right equipment but it is something to consider.

Iíve ran over 200 rounds of the 125 gr. TC bullet I cast at 1300+ fps in a LWD 357 Sig barrel with no issues, couldnít get though one mag with the stock G31 barrel before getting severe lead build up that required an extensive cleaning. So if you are reloading light plinking loads to run in your stock barrel, your only issue maybe an increase in cleaning. If you are trying to duplicate a defense load using lead bullets you may get into a severe leading issue in short order.

Another aspect of the aftermarket barrel is that you can now use your stock barrel for jacketed only and your aftermarket barrel for lead only.

sig357fan

breacher1
10-20-2012, 13:24
Sounds like you do not have your sizing die adjusted all the way down.

it's cranked all the way till it contacts the shell holder on the up-stroke. can't go down any farther.

I'm pretty sure it's just the tight chamber on that Firedragon barrel. I just checked some of those rejected rds in my new G35 barrel and they rattle around in the chamber with room to spare.

dwhite53
10-20-2012, 17:52
I could probably go 300 to 500 rounds without cleaning however I haven't shot over 200 rounds at the range in one visit for ....................................... decades.

I have been told two trips per month of 200 rounds per trip is far more productive than one trip of 400 rounds. By the time I've run 100 to 150 through the same gun I'm getting a little fatigued, and thus sloppy.

So when I get home, the gun(s) get cleaned.

If I take a couple guns to the range they'll get about 100 rounds each. Unless I take the Marlin 60 .22. It's likely to see over a 100 most range trips.

Might have to get wild and try 400 rounds through the G22 in one session.

All the Best,
D. White

F106 Fan
10-20-2012, 18:12
it's cranked all the way till it contacts the shell holder on the up-stroke. can't go down any farther.

I'm pretty sure it's just the tight chamber on that Firedragon barrel. I just checked some of those rejected rds in my new G35 barrel and they rattle around in the chamber with room to spare.

But do they fit a case gauge?

Richard

Larry_Waters
10-20-2012, 20:47
Man what a PITA to clean every 200 rounds or so. My 1911 I can send 500+ in an afternoon of me time, then walk over to the rifle range for more fun. But to clean my G22 every 200 rounds or so is not what I'd call a nice day at the range.


However if that's what it takes to get through the 500 moly's I have then by all means I'll do it. I can do 100-200 on the G22 and rest via the 1911.

WiskyT
10-20-2012, 20:54
Man what a PITA to clean every 200 rounds or so. My 1911 I can send 500+ in an afternoon of me time, then walk over to the rifle range for more fun. But to clean my G22 every 200 rounds or so is not what I'd call a nice day at the range.


However if that's what it takes to get through the 500 moly's I have then by all means I'll do it. I can do 100-200 on the G22 and rest via the 1911.

You're kidding right? Running a brush down a barrel every couple of hundred rounds is a pita?

Anyway, there is no reason to do that anyway. If a load leads, it will lead up the barrel quickly. If it leads, the load is no good. A load that leads is not accurate. If the load doesn't lead, than there is no nead to clean the gun.

The real cleaning "issue" with lead bullet loads is the carbon crud that builds up in the REST OF THE GUN. After a few hundred rounds there is a considerable amount of crud that can foul the extractor etc. A toothbrush and some CLP takes care of it in a couple of minutes.

breacher1
10-20-2012, 21:47
But do they fit a case gauge?

Richard

???? dunno, don't have one. they fit every 40 barrel I have (Steyr M40, Taurus PT740, Glock 35) except that EFK Firedragon barrel for my G32.

like I said, it's only about 15 to 20 percent that won't chamber all the way but it requires an extra step of checking every single rd after reloading or they will cause a malfunction in that gun. BTW at least that EFK barrel never leads no matter what or how much lead I pump thru it.

More than I can say for the stock G35 barrel. I started with 3 mags (45 rds) of 140 gr Missouri hard cast in front of 4.2 gr of Ramshot Competition - a nice light load- and found some light leading in the first inch or so of the rifling. Dunno if I would have got to 100 rds before things really got bad.

So I cleaned that out with some Kleenbore lead remover patches. Good stuff but a little pricey. I went to 2 grocery stores later looking for that Choreboy stuff but couldn't find any. Maybe they don't sell it out here in NM.

Anyways, I then tried one mag of the 180 gr moly hard cast - they have no lube on them- loaded in front of 5.5 gr. of Ramshot Silhouette. I checked the barrel and it looked real ugly. Lead all the way down the barrel.

Weird part was I put away the lead rds and fired 4 or 5 factory jacketed CCI Blazers just to see what a full powered load felt like in a G35. When I got home to clean out the lead again it was gone. I guess the jacketed rds cleaned the barrel for me. Nice.

F106 Fan
10-20-2012, 22:09
Weird part was I put away the lead rds and fired 4 or 5 factory jacketed CCI Blazers just to see what a full powered load felt like in a G35. When I got home to clean out the lead again it was gone. I guess the jacketed rds cleaned the barrel for me. Nice.

This is probably not a good idea. There is some thought that it damages the barrel.

I have always used the Lewis Lead Remover (available from Brownell's) to clean up my .45 barrels. I don't get a lot of leading so I think I am doing it just out of an abundance of caution.

Richard

Uncle Don
10-21-2012, 07:09
I agree with Whisky in that if a load leads, it's not a good combination, nor is it as accurate.

The hardness of the lead doesn't really make a difference in my opinion, especially since the softer the lead, the less likely the base will burn on the ride down the bore - and that causes almost all actual leading. The harder the bullet, the better lube you should have.

If one is using softer lead, you want to use a powder that gives the least pressure. The way I picture it is that a bullet pushed with too much pressure, regardless of velocity is trying to turn inside out inside the bore. This arrangement is not accurate and the base will more than likely burn leaving traces of lead in the first inch or two.

In short, my method is to consider the powder based on pressure far more than a velocity goal. Fortunatly, I have used the same bullety supplier for a couple years now so I can stick with one recipe, but if you use different brands, the key is pressure, not velocity. Good thread - ymmv.

SJ 40
10-21-2012, 09:54
I agree with Whisky in that if a load leads, it's not a good combination, nor is it as accurate.

The hardness of the lead doesn't really make a difference in my opinion, especially since the softer the lead, the less likely the base will burn on the ride down the bore - and that causes almost all actual leading. The harder the bullet, the better lube you should have.

If one is using softer lead, you want to use a powder that gives the least pressure. The way I picture it is that a bullet pushed with too much pressure, regardless of velocity is trying to turn inside out inside the bore. This arrangement is not accurate and the base will more than likely burn leaving traces of lead in the first inch or two.

In short, my method is to consider the powder based on pressure far more than a velocity goal. Fortunatly, I have used the same bullety supplier for a couple years now so I can stick with one recipe, but if you use different brands, the key is pressure, not velocity. Good thread - ymmv.As Don said this is most important matching PSI up to BHN,this may help explain it .

http://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=327 SJ 40

breacher1
10-21-2012, 10:26
As Don said this is most important matching PSI up to BHN,this may help explain it .

http://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=327 SJ 40

oh yeah that explains everything. and as soon as I finish my PhD in mathematics I might understand some of it!!

my simpleton theory was that the lead bullet skidded down the Glock barrel when it first started, leaving some lead streaks. eventually it gets spinning at the same rate as the rifling and leaves no more lead. traditional rifling bites into the lead bullet harder so no skipping and no lead.

so I was thinking maybe the next step would be to try some slower powder with the Missouri 140 gr bullets so that they start down the barrel a little slower and have a better chance of getting grabbed by the rifling in the Glock barrel?

I dunno. I'm no scientist. I didn't even stay at that Holiday Inn Express last night.

If you were burning the base of the bullet wouldn't you have the same lead problem no matter what barrel you used?

shotgunred
10-21-2012, 10:51
so I was thinking maybe the next step would be to try some slower powder with the Missouri 140 gr bullets so that they start down the barrel a little slower and have a better chance of getting grabbed by the rifling in the Glock barrel?



There is no rifling in a glock barrel. Just flat sides set at an angle to each other.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg/250px-Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg.png

dwhite53
10-21-2012, 11:29
Man what a PITA to clean every 200 rounds or so. My 1911 I can send 500+ in an afternoon of me time, then walk over to the rifle range for more fun. But to clean my G22 every 200 rounds or so is not what I'd call a nice day at the range.

Pull the barrel, couple strokes with a wire brush, re-assemble. About 45 to 60 seconds. I can see where that would bother some people.

To each his own.

All the Best,
D. White

F106 Fan
10-21-2012, 12:03
Pull the barrel, couple strokes with a wire brush, re-assemble. About 45 to 60 seconds. I can see where that would bother some people.

To each his own.

All the Best,
D. White

I don't think that is the point. To me, if a barrel NEEDS to be cleaned at 200 rounds, there is probably some distribution curve that would show it should be cleaned at 100 rounds.

It's the unpredictability of the magnitude of the leading that is the problem. What if I usually make 200 but, today, for some strange reason, the barrel only makes 150? How many samples does it take to be absolutely confident in the schedule?

Of course, the way to make sure the schedule is short enough is to clean even more often. Ten, twenty, something like that...

If there is any measureable leading at all, over any really large number of rounds, something is wrong. Whether it is the bullet or the barrel makes no difference.

And cleaning throughout the day isn't the answer. Either solve the leading problem by changing bullets/barrel or use jacketed bullets.

Richard

sig357fan
10-21-2012, 13:37
so I was thinking maybe the next step would be to try some slower powder with the Missouri 140 gr bullets so that they start down the barrel a little slower and have a better chance of getting grabbed by the rifling in the Glock barrel?........

breacher1

By no means take this as an insult, but I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.

Faster/slower powder refers to powder burn rate, that being how quickly a given powder burns completely, measured in milliseconds not feet per second or velocity of a fired round. Going to a slower burn rate powder usually increase velocity.

sig357fan

SJ 40
10-21-2012, 15:07
oh yeah that explains everything. and as soon as I finish my PhD in mathematics I might understand some of it!!

my simpleton theory was that the lead bullet skidded down the Glock barrel when it first started, leaving some lead streaks. eventually it gets spinning at the same rate as the rifling and leaves no more lead. traditional rifling bites into the lead bullet harder so no skipping and no lead.

so I was thinking maybe the next step would be to try some slower powder with the Missouri 140 gr bullets so that they start down the barrel a little slower and have a better chance of getting grabbed by the rifling in the Glock barrel?

I dunno. I'm no scientist. I didn't even stay at that Holiday Inn Express last night.

If you were burning the base of the bullet wouldn't you have the same lead problem no matter what barrel you used?Yes you would,that is what causes leading of any type of rifled barrel,polygonal or conventionally rifled barrel.

What it means is you need to match the pressure of the gas produced by the powder charge to the hardness of the bullet. To obturate the lead bullet in the bore so as not to skid the bullet down the bore. Their by letting said gas go around the lead bullet causing the leading one is trying to prevent.

With cast bullets for rifles gas checked bullets are used to help prevent the gas cutting of the bullet,a copper disc that is crimped onto the base of the bullet.
Because of the higher pressures most rifle loads develop over handgun rounds.
SJ 40

breacher1
10-21-2012, 15:45
breacher1

By no means take this as an insult, but I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.

Faster/slower powder refers to powder burn rate, that being how quickly a given powder burns completely, measured in milliseconds not feet per second or velocity of a fired round. Going to a slower burn rate powder usually increase velocity.

sig357fan

potentially, you can get more velocity if you use a slower powder and more of it you are less likely to exceed SAAMI pressure specs at a given velocity than trying to get there with a faster powder. say your goal is 900 fps with a 180 gr 40 cal bullet. your peak PSI will be higher with Bullseye than with Longshot.

here's a chart with powders listed fastest to slowest-
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

breacher1
10-21-2012, 15:58
There is no rifling in a glock barrel. Just flat sides set at an angle to each other.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg/250px-Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg.png

crap, Glock ripped me off and didn't rifle my barrel

seriously though, why do they make barrels this way? are they cheaper or more expensive to produce?

I wonder if one used slightly larger lead 40 cal boolits, say .402 instead of the .401 I usually find for sale, if it would seal in the barrel better and alleviate the lead problem.

anyone ever try that?

F106 Fan
10-21-2012, 16:33
seriously though, why do they make barrels this way? are they cheaper or more expensive to produce?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling

There are some advantages like durability and some disadvantages like leading. Given that Glocks are combat weapons, not target guns, the manufacturer probably doesn't care a wit about lead bullets. Military uses FMJ and LE uses JHP. Nothing else matters in a combat arm.

There are other guns such as the Remington 700 model 5200R with barrels that don't use conventional rectangular cross-section lands.

http://www.snipercentral.com/milspec5r.phtml

FWIW, my groups, with my handloads, are a LOT smaller than those in the article. Think in terms of a group far less than 1/2 MOA. In fact, think of two rounds, fired 5 minutes apart, with someone else shooting in the meantime, going through the exact same hole. That hole doesn't have 0.020" of elongation.

Scary accurate...

Richard

SJ 40
10-21-2012, 17:31
crap, Glock ripped me off and didn't rifle my barrel

seriously though, why do they make barrels this way? are they cheaper or more expensive to produce?

I wonder if one used slightly larger lead 40 cal boolits, say .402 instead of the .401 I usually find for sale, if it would seal in the barrel better and alleviate the lead problem.

anyone ever try that? Yes I slug every barrel I load for,let the barrel tell you what it likes.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-1_MeasuringGunDimensions.htm

SJ 40