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DanaT
10-23-2012, 07:30
Yesterday I was in the US office and will be there couple of weeks.

Anyways, the HR director gives me the company policies and rules. This is led to a discussion about things I disagreed with.

The two big ones were the weapons policy and the alcohol policy.

The first thing in the weapons policy was that no weapons were allowed on company property without exception. That didnt make me happy. The next one said that as a condition of employment that the company could search personal effects and vehicles for weapons if suspected and refusal would be termination. That made more more than unhappy.

Next up was alcohol. It said that alcohol was not allowed to be consumed on work time and people cant be under the influence on work time. I am OK with that. Then it said that alcohol, like weapons, could not be on company property. This I have a problem with. If I want to give someone a bottle of wine at work, that is 100% acceptable. There is a difference between having a bottle of alcohol and drinking.

The HR director told about how these are industry standard policies, everyone does it, blah, blah.

As I am always right, I told her I didn't agree with them and will not agree to follow those policies. This of course led to yet more discussions and her responses to me. She was telling me how not allowing weapons reduces workforce violence (no gun signs stop shootings you know). I remained right and said I won't agree to this.

It will be fun the next couple of weeks.

John Rambo
10-23-2012, 07:32
Free market, baby.

It sure ain't industry standard, at least not down here.

Mr. Niceguy
10-23-2012, 07:32
Yesterday I was in the US office and will be there couple of weeks.

Anyways, the HR director gives me the company policies and rules. This is led to a discussion about things I disagreed with.

The two big ones were the weapons policy and the alcohol policy.

The first thing in the weapons policy was that no weapons were allowed on company property without exception. That didnt make me happy. The next one said that as a condition of employment that the company could search personal effects and vehicles for weapons if suspected and refusal would be termination. That made more more than unhappy.

Next up was alcohol. It said that alcohol was not allowed to be consumed on work time and people cant be under the influence on work time. I am OK with that. Then it said that alcohol, like weapons, could not be on company property. This I have a problem with. If I want to give someone a bottle of wine at work, that is 100% acceptable. There is a difference between having a bottle of alcohol and drinking.

The HR director told about how these are industry standard policies, everyone does it, blah, blah.

As I am always right, I told her I didn't agree with them and will not agree to follow those policies. This of course led to yet more discussions and her responses to me. She was telling me how not allowing weapons reduces workforce violence (no gun signs stop shootings you know). I remained right and said I won't agree to this.

It will be fun the next couple of weeks.

Probably won't take a couple of weeks.

RimfireMan
10-23-2012, 07:32
You don't like the policies, leave, and get another job. Their house, their rules.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 07:37
Probably won't take a couple of weeks.

Why is that?

Mr. Niceguy
10-23-2012, 07:41
Why is that?

I would imagine that your refusal to agree to comply with company policies will result in termination. Doesn't matter how you feel about the policies.

Psychman
10-23-2012, 07:49
I would imagine that your refusal to agree to comply with company policies will result in termination. Doesn't matter how you feel about the policies.


Probably so. I don't think the HR person was telling him the rules and policies so that he could argue her down.

droidfire
10-23-2012, 07:56
(deleted) your rules, i'm rick james, (deleted)

Sharkey
10-23-2012, 07:57
You say you came to the US office? Do you allow weapons and alcohol at your other international locations? The policies are always in favor of the business and can and will be used against you for termination. That said, I worked somewhere that had a weapons policy and carried for 1.5 years before I left for another jot that requires I be armed. :)

Arguing about it with the HR person was probably not a good idea. I imagine the policy of alcohol on property is not enforced around Christmas time. Also, I think the courts have ruled here where I live that weapons in your personal vehicle in their lot is ok. Might be a basis for a suit if you were fired but I don't know about your state law.

LSUAdman
10-23-2012, 08:00
Good luck Dana - I know how those can be.

For one of the companies I contract with, a substance abuse center, they do not allow alcohol consumption or possession (obviously) nor weapons on the campus.

However, Texas law stops them from being able to say that we cannot have weapons in our car, since our Castle Doctrine extends to our cars and property.

That said, I traditionally give bottles of wine and liquor as presents around the Holidays (who doesnt appreciate a good drink as a gift?). My last employeer leered at it (baptist owned), but it never was a major problem as long as you didnt imbibe on work time.

How crazy are they about the gun policy? Will they run dogs through the parking lot or wand you? If not, concealed is concealed in my book - I dont think you're the person who would be bragging about carrying, so as long as there are no accidental exposures and they do not pat people down, you're probably safe.

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 08:03
Interesting....Surprised she didn't dismiss you there on the spot. As with our company, the same rules apply, however, we have community parking...meaning it is shared with other businesses and they don't control it.

I know here, if you don't agree to the 'Code of Conduct' policies, they give you 2 weeks to think it over.....then the decision is made, by you....you play by their rules or not.

Definitely keep us posted.


:wavey:

red

Bilbo Bagins
10-23-2012, 08:05
Yesterday I was in the US office and will be there couple of weeks.

Anyways, the HR director gives me the company policies and rules. This is led to a discussion about things I disagreed with.

The two big ones were the weapons policy and the alcohol policy.

The first thing in the weapons policy was that no weapons were allowed on company property without exception. That didnt make me happy. The next one said that as a condition of employment that the company could search personal effects and vehicles for weapons if suspected and refusal would be termination. That made more more than unhappy.

Next up was alcohol. It said that alcohol was not allowed to be consumed on work time and people cant be under the influence on work time. I am OK with that. Then it said that alcohol, like weapons, could not be on company property. This I have a problem with. If I want to give someone a bottle of wine at work, that is 100% acceptable. There is a difference between having a bottle of alcohol and drinking.

The HR director told about how these are industry standard policies, everyone does it, blah, blah.

As I am always right, I told her I didn't agree with them and will not agree to follow those policies. This of course led to yet more discussions and her responses to me. She was telling me how not allowing weapons reduces workforce violence (no gun signs stop shootings you know). I remained right and said I won't agree to this.

It will be fun the next couple of weeks.

You might as well put out your resume now, and interview for another job, just to go thru the same thing somewhere else :whistling:

Seriously, sometimes you got to shut up and nod in agreement, so no one would suspect that you are breaking the rules later.

By playing activist, you just put a big target on your back, and you will be fast tracked out the door.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:10
How crazy are they about the gun policy?

It depends upon how you define "they".

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:11
I am really surprised at some of the responses.

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 08:13
I am really surprised at some of the responses.

What's surprising?


:wavey:

red

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:14
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

fallenangelhim
10-23-2012, 08:17
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

Times is hard. Job and paycheck > carrying a gun to work

Sent from my Android

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:20
Times is hard. Job and paycheck > carrying a gun to work

Sent from my Android

I disagreed with the alcohol policy too.

Actually, the PTO/vacation policy I didnt like so much either.

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 08:23
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

What did you expect? As with my company, it's black/white...no negotiations....you either go with it or you don't and look elsewhere.

Unless your company has a small leadership circle that will grant exceptions to the rules.....it's settled....their rules rule.

Are you expecting them to say..."well, since you object, we'll waive the rules for you?" :dunno:

:wavey:

red

mgs
10-23-2012, 08:23
I guess it all depends on who hired DanaT and under what conditions.....that is the person who can fire him. I was hired by the President/Owner of the Company and the HR dept did not like that......too bad lady, you did not hire me and cannot fire me so lose the attitude. A VP tired to push me around and I said with all due resect mam, I don't work for you or your dept. The President put her in her place. I really liked working there before he sold the Company to Corporate America. I stayed on for 20 years and moved on once all the good people were gone. Maybe that's the problem with America these days.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:26
Are you expecting them to say..."well, since you object, we'll waive the rules for you?" :dunno:


No, actually I expect her to say "I will go change those rules for everyone"

Bilbo Bagins
10-23-2012, 08:26
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

Every large company has a "no weapons" policy. Get use to it.

My company has a similar policy and I have a .380 and a 3" folder in my pockets everyday. No one knows, because I keep my mouth shut.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:29
I guess it all depends on who hired DanaT and under what conditions

That is the correct answer. That is why it will be a fun two weeks. I already know the outcome. Its just the path to get to that outcome.

mgs
10-23-2012, 08:31
What did you expect? As with my company, it's black/white...no negotiations....you either go with it or you don't and look elsewhere.

Unless your company has a small leadership circle that will grant exceptions to the rules.....it's settled....their rules rule.

Are you expecting them to say..."well, since you object, we'll waive the rules for you?" :dunno:

:wavey:

red

Exceptions are made for the best people quite often.....just not all the people. It just depends how good you are and how well you know it. State and Federal Laws do limit this some places unless you work for the Fed.

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 08:33
No, actually I expect her to say "I will go change those rules for everyone"

I like your attitude! :supergrin: :thumbsup:

As I said before, if you are lucky enough to have the connections to the executive office and they will grant the waiver....go for it. If they do grant it.....get it in writing!

I spoke with our legal department several years ago about this; since I can legally carry concealed, why can't I carry on business premises.....I thought they would give the corporate line about liability, instead he said it was intimidation. If people found out others carried, those who didn't would be intimidated, including the leaders above you. Then of course he gave the liability line.


:wavey:

red

costanza187
10-23-2012, 08:39
You don't like the policies, leave, and get another job. Their house, their rules.

Yup, that's just how it is.

badge315
10-23-2012, 08:39
That is the correct answer. That is why it will be a fun two weeks. I already know the outcome. Its just the path to get to that outcome.

Well don't make us wait two weeks...what's the outcome going to be?

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 08:39
Exceptions are made for the best people quite often.....just not all the people. It just depends how good you are and how well you know it. State and Federal Laws do limit this some places unless you work for the Fed.

If it is a small, and/or family owned...then your argument works. However, most larger companies don't, especially when it comes to firearms. Absent one from being in the executive office, it's generally not something that happens. Some executive level positions are of a different agreement then the rest of the employees. These have a tendency to have a different 'Code of Conduct'.

:wavey:

red

kensb2
10-23-2012, 08:41
I disagreed with the alcohol policy too.

Actually, the PTO/vacation policy I didnt like so much either.

Out of curiousity, what is your company's PTO/vacation policy? Mine changed recently, as we were bought out by a much larger company last year that does things differently. I was hired @ 3 weeks PTO (accrued 2.54 hrs/40 hrs worked). With the new plan, I lost a week of vacation but gained unlimited paid sick leave. I feel that was a decent "trade off". Not that I had a choice if I wanted to keep my job...

raven11
10-23-2012, 08:45
I applaud you for standing up and arguing the policy.

myself in this economy I would have just accepted and taken the paycheck

DanaT
10-23-2012, 08:47
Well don't make us wait two weeks...what's the outcome going to be?

The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.

byf43
10-23-2012, 09:23
Dana,

The corporation that I work for, has the same policies.

IF I disagree with their policy, they have another policy.
Termination of employment.

Ya know. . . . I'm not the brightest bulb on the shelf, but, when my corporation states "No Firearms" and "No Alcohol", I comply.
I may not agree with them, but, I'm not quite ready to either retire or find another job.

certifiedfunds
10-23-2012, 09:29
As I am always right,

I understand. It is a burden we share.

Knowing a bit about your role in the organization I anticipate that she will have some policy revisions to work on.

Wake_jumper
10-23-2012, 09:41
HR is NOT your friend. NEVER talk to HR.

gwalchmai
10-23-2012, 09:47
I've generally found HR people to be the most conniving, backbiting, and ignorant denizens of the workplace. I avoid them whenever possible.

vart
10-23-2012, 09:54
HR is NOT your friend. NEVER talk to HR.

Yep.

Last time I talked to HR a couple of years ago, I was called a white supremacist because I didn't vote for Obama...

LSUAdman
10-23-2012, 09:55
The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.


Can't say anything bad about that revision!

OctoberRust
10-23-2012, 10:06
Yep.

Last time I talked to HR a couple of years ago, I was called a white supremacist because I didn't vote for Obama...


No, it just makes you a racist if you didn't vote for Obama. :whistling:

RenoF250
10-23-2012, 10:13
The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.

Are you in the position to make that decision or well connected to the person who can?

Why require CCW for gun on company property? In NV it is legal to have a gun in your car no CCW.

I work for a very large company and we do not have a no gun policy that I know of. Certainly NOT allowed to search vehicles. That is the part I would have a huge problem with. Where do they think they get the right to do that? Searching my car as the same as searching my person and you don't do that without a damn good reason.

Drain You
10-23-2012, 10:18
Every large company has a "no weapons" policy. Get use to it.

My company has a similar policy and I have a .380 and a 3" folder in my pockets everyday. No one knows, because I keep my mouth shut.



I feel the same way but don't practice it in reality because I would also be in legal trouble and/or lose my permit.

Losing my current job would be devastating without losing my permit and a possible criminal record.

RenoF250
10-23-2012, 10:20
Yep.

Last time I talked to HR a couple of years ago, I was called a white supremacist because I didn't vote for Obama...

You let them get away with that?? They are not immune to the rules, they cannot make comments like that.

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 10:27
The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.

Great resolution! A rare one, too. :thumbsup:

If were up to me, I would get it in writing.

:wavey:

red

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 10:34
....snip.....

I work for a very large company and we do not have a no gun policy that I know of. Certainly NOT allowed to search vehicles. That is the part I would have a huge problem with. Where do they think they get the right to do that? Searching my car as the same as searching my person and you don't do that without a damn good reason.

This is an issue. IIRC, they get by with it by stating, "as part of our company policy, by you parking your vehicle on our property, you agree to allow this process". I've 'heard' of some legal cases that support this; but have never actually reviewed them. Some states have some specific laws that prevent this happening.

Not saying it right....it's just...it's their business to run as they see fit (absent violating any laws). You can discuss these issues, but once they say, it is not allowed.....one has to make one of a couple of decisions....to work there, or to not.

:wavey:

red

mgs
10-23-2012, 10:41
I just carry a Gerber everyday since guns are not allowed at work. I'd rather be shot than stabbed to death.....thanks HR!

RenoF250
10-23-2012, 11:01
This is an issue. IIRC, they get by with it by stating, "as part of our company policy, by you parking your vehicle on our property, you agree to allow this process". I've 'heard' of some legal cases that support this; but have never actually reviewed them. Some states have some specific laws that prevent this happening.

Not saying it right....it's just...it's their business to run as they see fit (absent violating any laws). You can discuss these issues, but once they say, it is not allowed.....one has to make one of a couple of decisions....to work there, or to not.

:wavey:

red

I checked our employee manual and it says nothing about guns, just weapons in general. It says no weapons in the company facility. Written in such a way to indicate nothing will be done unless there is a problem.

I would not be concerned about having a gun in my car but I would not carry in the office. I sure something would hit the fan if it was seen.

wjv
10-23-2012, 11:53
If possible, park your car on the street or in a different parking lot and walk the extra 100 yards. Then they have no legal right to search your vehicle.

Sorry, but you should have just agreed with him/her and then did what you wanted. Now there will be a target on your car. Expect it to be searched. . .

certifiedfunds
10-23-2012, 11:55
Put one of those covers over your car after you park it. They won't know its there.

wjv
10-23-2012, 11:58
So you're allowed to carry at work in Germany?

wjv
10-23-2012, 12:01
Seriously, sometimes you got to shut up and nod in agreement, so no one would suspect that you are breaking the rules later.

By playing activist, you just put a big target on your back, and you will be fast tracked out the door.

This!

Sometimes Don't ask Don't tell is the best policy.

I know a couple people over the years who were terminated from jobs because of guns. In EVERY case it was because the idiot started blabbing to co-workers about "having a gun in the car". . .

Loose lips sink ships. . .

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 12:27
I checked our employee manual and it says nothing about guns, just weapons in general. It says no weapons in the company facility. Written in such a way to indicate nothing will be done unless there is a problem.

I would not be concerned about having a gun in my car but I would not carry in the office. I sure something would hit the fan if it was seen.

Most policies have become very generic and state exactly what you said...no weapons, then they give some examples but are not all inclusive.

Don't be surprised to see it in the future stating "in the facilities and/or on the premises". Ours went from in the facility to on the premises (except as provided by law...some states over-ride a companies policy and allow people to keep firearms in their vehicles, even if contrary to company policy, with no recourse....OK is a good example...although I have heard there is a case in OK challenging this...haven't found it yet.)

:wavey:

red

Disintegr8or
10-23-2012, 12:41
I am really surprised at some of the responses.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand.

My rights as a Company owner trump your rights as an Employee. Don't like it??? kick rocks. I'll hire someone younger, cheaper, and more outgoing than you by the end of the week.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 12:50
Are you in the position to make that decision or well connected to the person who can?

Why require CCW for gun on company property? In NV it is legal to have a gun in your car no CCW.

In their car is fine. I could care less. That has nothing to do with the company. The company has no business inside someones car. They can have a dead body in there and its not the company's issue.

Why CCW. Because that is way to legally carry outside your own property/car. It also means they have had a thorough background check.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 12:51
So you're allowed to carry at work in Germany?

No. (i need more characters sinceGT wont take "no.")

DanaT
10-23-2012, 12:52
It shouldn't be too hard to understand.

My rights as a Company owner trump your rights as an Employee. Don't like it??? kick rocks. I'll hire someone younger, cheaper, and more outgoing than you by the end of the week.

I doubt you have a grasp on the situation.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 12:57
Are you in the position to make that decision or well connected to the person who can?


Why yes I am. That is why I marked up the policies and told the HR director to come back with revised policies. She wanted me to "compromise." My compromise was " I am right, come back with different policies"

The reason I said "company policy" is I am essentially exempt from the rules because I am not a US employee. I just dont think its right that I can do it and the rest of the employees cannot.

gjk5
10-23-2012, 13:02
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

Why? It's not your business, they can make whatever rules they like and if you don't like it you are free to leave.

Mr. Niceguy
10-23-2012, 13:03
Why yes I am. That is why I marked up the policies and told the HR director to come back with revised policies. She wanted me to "compromise." My compromise was " I am right, come back with different policies"

The reason I said "company policy" is I am essentially exempt from the rules because I am not a US employee. I just dont think its right that I can do it and the rest of the employees cannot.

So are you directing the company to ammend the PTO / vacation policy also?

redbaron007
10-23-2012, 13:14
Why yes I am. That is why I marked up the policies and told the HR director to come back with revised policies. She wanted me to "compromise." My compromise was " I am right, come back with different policies"

The reason I said "company policy" is I am essentially exempt from the rules because I am not a US employee. I just dont think its right that I can do it and the rest of the employees cannot.

This makes a difference. :supergrin:


:wavey:

red

geofri
10-23-2012, 13:17
Thanks for fighting, DanaT!


*Tagged for the outcome.

captainstormy
10-23-2012, 13:17
Glad it worked out for you, but that's the sender exception to the rule.

I might not agree with a companies policies but they have as much of a right to run their business how they want as I do to live my life as I want.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

DanaT
10-23-2012, 13:46
So are you directing the company to ammend the PTO / vacation policy also?

Yes.

I dont like the mixed PTO policy. I do not like mixing vacation and sick days. What happens is then all of the time is looked at by the employees as "vacation" and they will come to work sick. I do not like people coming to work sick and making everyone else sick. That annoys me.

IF you are sick, use your sick time and don't get everyone else sick.

ilgunguygt
10-23-2012, 13:53
My last two jobs I carried everyday. One of them was a definate no-no as far as policy. I carried a 380 that was easily hidden. My current, as a service manager is different. The owner is cool with it so I carry a JFrame in my pocket most days. If I'm wearing a suit to work then its a compact 1911.

Glock20 10mm
10-23-2012, 13:54
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

It's the same mentality that maintains the status quo of a (failed or failing depending on who you speak with) two party system and just accepting the "lesser of two evils" instead of stepping up and uniting behind a proven third party solution. I call it the lemming disease.

Glock20 10mm
10-23-2012, 13:57
Every large company has a "no weapons" policy. Get use to it.

My company has a similar policy and I have a .380 and a 3" folder in my pockets everyday. No one knows, because I keep my mouth shut.

This is a classic example of the exercise of rights to Constitutional bearing of arms. Concealed means that and self defense is a right that no one should be forced to relinquish EVER.

Glock20 10mm
10-23-2012, 13:59
The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.

Negative ghost rider, if the person meets the legal criteria as laid out by the Constitution then NO PERMIT is required to bear arms, openly or concealed. That is how a true free society operates and that is how the Constitution was intended to operate.

NO LAW SHALL SUPERSEDE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND!!! And people wonder why we have so many issues...

SC Tiger
10-23-2012, 14:27
This is a classic example of the exercise of rights to Constitutional bearing of arms. Concealed means that and self defense is a right that no one should be forced to relinquish EVER.

No one is being forced relinquish anything. They can get a job somewhere that allows CCW in the building.

I don't like those rules any more than anyone else but it's the company's house, so it's their rules. Don't like it? Quit.

vart
10-23-2012, 14:33
You let them get away with that?? They are not immune to the rules, they cannot make comments like that.
I asked my manager for a transcript of the supposedly recorded call was told that the call wasn't recorded and there was no evidence of what was said.

I really liked my job at the time and didn't think it was worth it to make waves...

DanaT
10-23-2012, 14:35
No one is being forced relinquish anything. They can get a job somewhere that allows CCW in the building.

I don't like those rules any more than anyone else but it's the company's house, so it's their rules. Don't like it? Quit.

I think what I have come up with is a reasonable compromise between employer and employee rights with respect to CCW. Basically, if an employee has a CCW and notifies the company, it will be acceptable (assuming no work related problems with employee such as anger management issues).

Glock20 10mm
10-23-2012, 16:08
No one is being forced relinquish anything. They can get a job somewhere that allows CCW in the building.

I don't like those rules any more than anyone else but it's the company's house, so it's their rules. Don't like it? Quit.

I call BS. Especially in this market.

Naelbis
10-23-2012, 16:38
The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.

Why only an in state permit? I jump through more hoops to get my ND CCW than you do in CO, why should I be discriminated against? And why if CCW is allowed, should I have to inform the company or get their approval? If the state says a person can be trusted to carry concealed, then who are YOU to say different? Carry for everyone or carry for no one is pretty much the only way to go, if you want it to stand in court. Seriously, DanaT I thought you were a freedom loving man....:tongueout:

DanaT
10-23-2012, 16:40
Why only an in state permit? I jump through more hoops to get my ND CCW than you do in CO, why should I be discriminated against?

Because people from CO are more important.

DanaT
10-23-2012, 16:42
Seriously, DanaT I thought you were a freedom loving man....:tongueout:

Isn't it quite obvious that I am.

AtlantaR6
10-23-2012, 16:47
HR is NOT your friend. NEVER talk to HR.

Exactly. They are there to protect the COMPANY, not you. They do not have your best interests in mind, nor do they care.

Obviously different given your position, but just a tip for the younger guys.

janice6
10-23-2012, 16:56
Because people from CO are more important.




Funny.........

Naelbis
10-23-2012, 17:09
Because people from CO are more important.

Lol...EVERYONE used to be more important than us, until the Bakken exploded anyway. Now everyone wishes they were us, fiscally and economically speaking anyway.

crazycooter91
10-23-2012, 17:30
I'm not allowed to CCW at work, I don't fight it considering my position (just a step above the bottom level-inventory specialist for a national parts store chain).

skeeter1959
10-23-2012, 22:21
I doubt you have a grasp on the situation.

I doubt that you'll have a job there very long. :whistling:

Cali-Glock
10-23-2012, 22:46
Does anyone travel for work? Anyone go to industry meeting where alcohol is served? If the policy is as you said this means you can't have a glass of wine during dinner in the hotel resturant... Typically employers will say "that is different" - legally it is not: if they openly violate the policy then the policy becomes moot. Smart alcohol policies address after-hours travel alcohol use; basically limiting the allowed BAC to about .03-.04 I forget the specifics or one drink over a couple of hours.

.264 magnum
10-23-2012, 23:21
It's the same mentality that maintains the status quo of a (failed or failing depending on who you speak with) two party system and just accepting the "lesser of two evils" instead of stepping up and uniting behind a proven third party solution. I call it the lemming disease.

"Proven third party solution." Really now?

AtlantaR6
10-24-2012, 01:24
Does anyone travel for work? Anyone go to industry meeting where alcohol is served? If the policy is as you said this means you can't have a glass of wine during dinner in the hotel resturant... Typically employers will say "that is different" - legally it is not: if they openly violate the policy then the policy becomes moot. Smart alcohol policies address after-hours travel alcohol use; basically limiting the allowed BAC to about .03-.04 I forget the specifics or one drink over a couple of hours.

On the property or premises is a lot different than at a hotel in Phoenix. Simple verbiage can specify the difference.

airmotive
10-24-2012, 01:55
The problem I foresee could involve the HR 'lady' going to the legal dept and saying she's in fear for her life from a gun wielding alcoholic and the company needs to protect her and her coworkers from this menace.
The legal department, being averse to risk, then follow the path of least resistance and/or risk to the company.

BTW...Indiana also has a law that prevents companies from banning weapons in your car.

Roger1079
10-24-2012, 04:43
At my place of business, the parking lot is fair game, but inside the building is a no no. State law prohibits anyone other than on duty LEO's from carrying inside my workplace. A bit of a different scenario in my case.

Bren
10-24-2012, 05:08
As I am always right, I told her I didn't agree with them and will not agree to follow those policies. This of course led to yet more discussions and her responses to me. She was telling me how not allowing weapons reduces workforce violence (no gun signs stop shootings you know). I remained right and said I won't agree to this.

It will be fun the next couple of weeks.

I have never heard a good explanation of that theory that a person about to commit murder in front of witnesses would be deterred if they knew they might also get fired.:upeyes:

Kevin108
10-24-2012, 05:39
My employer updated a policy a couple of weeks ago. I signed it, shaking my head. It basically read that no employee could possess or be under the influence of alcohol, any illegal drugs or any medication on the list of controlled substances. The last part was what got me. Many of the drugs for common disorders, such as anxiety, depression, insomnia, narcolepsy and epilepsy, are on the controlled substances list.

SC Tiger
10-24-2012, 05:44
I think what I have come up with is a reasonable compromise between employer and employee rights with respect to CCW. Basically, if an employee has a CCW and notifies the company, it will be acceptable (assuming no work related problems with employee such as anger management issues).

If they agree to it, then congratulations.

If not, then you have a decision to make - follow the rule, break the rule and risk discipinary action if found out, or quit.

Your decision.

SC Tiger
10-24-2012, 05:45
I call BS. Especially in this market.

Market has nothing to do with it.

The company's house, the company's rules.

No different than I can forbid someone from bringing a weapon (I wouldn't unless I judge them to be unfit to carry it), a dog, or anything else in my house.

For the record I don't like those policies either but I do support the company's right to have them (though their reasoning is typically flawed).

M&P Shooter
10-24-2012, 05:45
You might as well put out your resume now, and interview for another job, just to go thru the same thing somewhere else :whistling:

Seriously, sometimes you got to shut up and nod in agreement, so no one would suspect that you are breaking the rules later.

By playing activist, you just put a big target on your back, and you will be fast tracked out the door.
100% agree, I worked a job as a retail manager for 13 years and I carried a G23 everyday and no one in my store, other managers ao DM's ever knew and I never mentioned anything about guns to anyone.

Bilbo Bagins
10-24-2012, 07:57
My employer updated a policy a couple of weeks ago. I signed it, shaking my head. It basically read that no employee could possess or be under the influence of alcohol, any illegal drugs or any medication on the list of controlled substances. The last part was what got me. Many of the drugs for common disorders, such as anxiety, depression, insomnia, narcolepsy and epilepsy, are on the controlled substances list.

Why did Bob go on a shooting spree at work?

He snapped because he went off his meds because of "company policy." Even though employees like Kevin have a CHL he could not carry his own gun becuase of "Company Policy"

I'm sure the families of the dead, and the wounded would have a nice lawsuit against your company for that bonehead move. :whistling:

Dennis in MA
10-24-2012, 08:52
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

No, actually I expect her to say "I will go change those rules for everyone"

Mister Gates! We forgot that not only are you an employee of Microsoft, you also are the controlling shareholder. Please forgive us for thinking EMPLOYEES set policy, not ownership via management.

The company policy (for weapons) will be that people with CCW issued in state (no out of state) can have their firearm if they inform the company of it, get approval on a case by case basis, and it is never displayed (visible).

Of course threats and intimidation will be zero tolerance.

Yeah, good luck with that. If you can't state it in 10 words, it ain't gonna fly. Too cumbersome. And heck, I would allow your policy and then tell you that no you CAN'T carry because I bleepin said so.



I'm all for carrying at the workplace. But EXPECTING you'll get your way because "you are right"??? Naive.


Your same line of thinking got us a failed GM, too. You have FEW TO NO RIGHTS AS AN EMPLOYEE - GET OVER IT! GM failed long-term because the EMPLOYEES ran the henhouse - they created contracts that were good for the employees, not for management, ownership or customers. How is this different? Because you are right? Wow. Good argument! "Your honor - I request that you find in my favor. . . because I'm right." :rofl:

DanaT
10-24-2012, 09:18
I'm all for carrying at the workplace. But EXPECTING you'll get your way because "you are right"??? Naive.

It depends upon what my level of influence is.

I will tell you the HR director cannot fire me but the opposite is true.

Carrys
10-24-2012, 09:27
I am really surprised at some of the responses.



See................it's not just us who see you as mentally defective.

Expect something a little extra in your pay envelope next time..........................like a pink slip, eh?:rofl:

droidfire
10-24-2012, 09:27
Yes.

I dont like the mixed PTO policy. I do not like mixing vacation and sick days. What happens is then all of the time is looked at by the employees as "vacation" and they will come to work sick. I do not like people coming to work sick and making everyone else sick. That annoys me.

IF you are sick, use your sick time and don't get everyone else sick.

For all of the things that i've seen in this thread worth responding to, and the myriad of perspectives presented in reply to your initial post, when I hit this one I hit reply because it was the one I won't bother looking past to see if something more worth replying is about.

Thank you.

Once more, thank you.

Unless the company will fall apart from you being absent, don't show up and get me sick.

Safety is a huge deal and one of my primary concerns when on the clock. I've worked with some stupidly dangerous people , who have tried and tried to get me to do some stupidly dangerous stuff.

Even (thinking about my time in them though, especially) in an office, the safety issue manifests itself in the minds of all on someone showing up sick beyond all other things, whether they realize it or not.

That constant worry all day long hampering your ability to be productive at your tasks. Seriously, it's that one person in a foul mood who wrecks the morale of everyone around them just with a removed sense of blame. Yea, you can get mad at the person for showing up at deaths door, but at the same time you can't be PC without accounting for their need to make the hours.

That's BS. Show some consideration for the people around you and don't be so selfish that you put yourself ahead of everyone around you and the company as a whole. The 5 people you may get sick that actually do take time off for hampers the companies ability to do whatever it's doing.

You put those people through what you went through, because why - you couldn't suffer alone, or were being selfish to go to a casino or something with your sick day instead?

The untold lost productivity of everyone around you. The few seconds lost every time someone pauses before touching a door handle because you might have been through it last also knocks whatever they were going through the door to do out of focus for a moment. Those little hiccups magnified exponentially in varied ways based on employee interaction.

The rolling of it all up in one encourages exactly what you said, people seeing it as their personal time to allocate as they see fit - ignore the unseen consequences of their decisions, and fall into the problem with which some have already broached. The "i'll do it until they catch me" bit.

Deliberately acknowledging and violating company policy deceptively is the first step down a bad path, and frankly putting the thought experiment of the thread aside for a moment, I don't want to work with someone who can't respect the company enough to do what it asks of them. If the request is valid, then either agree or not - else revisit the tale about the golden egg.

Bilbo Bagins
10-24-2012, 09:29
It depends upon what my level of influence is.

I will tell you the HR director cannot fire me but the opposite is true.

Unless you are the Owner of the company, or have "Chief" or "President" in front of your title, you wil have no influence with HR when it comes to weapons policy.

captainstormy
10-24-2012, 09:43
Unless the company will fall apart from you being absent, don't show up and get me sick.

That's BS. Show some consideration for the people around you and don't be so selfish that you put yourself ahead of everyone around you and the company as a whole. The 5 people you may get sick that actually do take time off for hampers the companies ability to do whatever it's doing.

You put those people through what you went through, because why - you couldn't suffer alone, or were being selfish to go to a casino or something with your sick day instead?

I agree with you in general, some companies policies make it not pay for an employee to call off sick.

My Fiancee works for a fairly large bank doing paperwork for loans.

If she calls off sick, even though she has PTO she could use, she gets a "point" for every day she misses. because it wasn't scheduled in advance. It takes 6 months for a point to roll off and nothing she can do speeds that up.

However, if you show up to work and your boss sends you home because your sick then not only do you not get any points, but it doesn't count against your PTO that day (and you still get paid). You can then use your PTO for the next couple of days without getting points.

I didn't believe her at first, but when I read her employee handbook that's exactly what it says. If you take your PTO (they don't have sick leave) for any reason without at least a business day's notice you get a point.

Once you get 5 points your fired, automatically and your boss can't stop it if they wanted to.

glockfanbob
10-24-2012, 09:46
Case by case it's determined? Why have that in there? By your logic in state CCW should be enough.

Diesel McBadass
10-24-2012, 09:54
Check state law for employee protection on vehichles. My company policy says employess cannot have guns in cars but state law says cwp holders cannot be prohibited from having firearms in vehichles by employers.

Don't worry, a bunch of tools on this site will tell you your word is more important than your life but screw em and throw a gun in the glovebox.

DanaT
10-24-2012, 10:00
Check state law for employee protection on vehichles. My company policy says employess cannot have guns in cars but state law says cwp holders cannot be prohibited from having firearms in vehichles by employers.

Don't worry, a bunch of tools on this site will tell you your word is more important than your life but screw em and throw a gun in the glovebox.

CO doesnt have a specific either way regarding cars on company property.

Mr. Niceguy
10-24-2012, 10:02
It depends upon what my level of influence is.

I will tell you the HR director cannot fire me but the opposite is true.

What's your title?

Carrys
10-24-2012, 10:06
CO doesnt have a specific either way regarding cars on company property.

Why on earth would you sell out your personal beliefs and go to work for a Co that doesn't support your beliefs?

Or did you even check when hiring on?

Surly you aren't one of those people who think the rules need to be/should be changed to fit your desires when you get around to finding out what the rules are.

Are ya?


Yeah, I s'pect ya are................**sigh**.:wavey:

DanaT
10-24-2012, 10:06
I agree with you in general, some companies policies make it not pay for an employee to call off sick.

My Fiancee works for a fairly large bank doing paperwork for loans.

If she calls off sick, even though she has PTO she could use, she gets a "point" for every day she misses. because it wasn't scheduled in advance. It takes 6 months for a point to roll off and nothing she can do speeds that up.

However, if you show up to work and your boss sends you home because your sick then not only do you not get any points, but it doesn't count against your PTO that day (and you still get paid). You can then use your PTO for the next couple of days without getting points.

I didn't believe her at first, but when I read her employee handbook that's exactly what it says. If you take your PTO (they don't have sick leave) for any reason without at least a business day's notice you get a point.

Once you get 5 points your fired, automatically and your boss can't stop it if they wanted to.

That is a stupid way to do business.

I would prefer to follow the way it is done in Europe, but unfortunately US worker and US lawyers prevent that. There are no set amount of sick days in Europe. If you need surgery, you get paid for the time. If you are sick, you better not come to work and you get paid for it.

But the difference is the workers dont abuse such systems and those that do are immediately dismissed and there are no ambulance chasers ready to sue the company because their client really was sick 9 months of the last year.

I want a system that encourages people to stay home when sick but also not abuse the system.

droidfire
10-24-2012, 10:07
.../snip:

Once you get 5 points your fired, automatically and your boss can't stop it if they wanted to.

The first thing I do upon new employment is read the manual. I've come across passages with stuff like that - and in all cases ended up choosing not to work there.

My response to your posting is to sympathize with the situation and vested involvement all around with that restriction. To me, everything that can cause me to end up unemployed that is beyond my control is a stressor.

Under the thumb of that company policy restriction i'd be looking for another job, and in the face of my quality of life versus the economy or available jobs or whatever are irrelevant. I'd switch careers if necessary to get out from under the thumb of being worried about losing my job like that.

Not trying to offer advice or anything, but i'd rather dig ditches in the rain at near day laborers rate then exist under a crappy set of rules like that regardless of what it paid. Not enough wealth in the world to make me want to carry that stress with me into my personal time.

Dennis in MA
10-24-2012, 10:10
Ugh. This is a typical GT thread. "Look at what is happening to me - I can't believe your aren't supporting me."

I wish the HR Director would post here. THAT would be worth continuing this thread. But with this "do you know how important I am" claim and a policy that I would institute and then turn right around on his sorry behind, this thread is becoming a yawn-fest.

LOOK AT ME!

M&P15T
10-24-2012, 10:13
It depends upon what my level of influence is.

I will tell you the HR director cannot fire me but the opposite is true.

Kinda trollish to not mention this upfront.

If you indeed have the position and authority to make policy changes in the company you work for, why not just mention that from the beginning?

I am interested to hear the final outcome of this. Though I kinda doubt we will hear what happens in the end if it doesn't go your way, if you don't really have the authority you think you have, and nothing gets changed.

DanaT
10-24-2012, 10:13
I wish the HR Director would post here. THAT would be worth continuing this thread.

Why? What would you expect?

DanaT
10-24-2012, 10:16
K
If you indeed have the position and authority to make policy changes in the company you work for, why not just mention that from the beginning?

Because it is interesting to see what people say. Most of the responses are "do as your told", "you need to look for a new job", etc.

I said I had a discussion. That in of itself is very clear. When do people have "discussions" with HR? HR normally lectures people unless they are forced to have discussions.

A discussion implies two-way communication. When have you ever had a two-way conversation with HR about policy?

kensb2
10-24-2012, 10:23
That is a stupid way to do business.

I would prefer to follow the way it is done in Europe, but unfortunately US worker and US lawyers prevent that. There are no set amount of sick days in Europe. If you need surgery, you get paid for the time. If you are sick, you better not come to work and you get paid for it.

But the difference is the workers dont abuse such systems and those that do are immediately dismissed and there are no ambulance chasers ready to sue the company because their client really was sick 9 months of the last year.

I want a system that encourages people to stay home when sick but also not abuse the system.

This is more or less the way my employer works, but our parent company is in Canada, as I stated before. I think they have a differing take on how to do business. If you go to the dentist, you have to do it on your "own" time so to speak. But if the dentist decides you need to have a filling/root canal etc that day? It becomes a sick day, and you are paid for it. We are not required to produce a doc's note for being out sick until it goes over 5 days. Then you damned well better have one!

Mr. Niceguy
10-24-2012, 11:22
You sound like a peer in a related industry to mine. Would you mind sending me a PM with your personal info so we can hook up on Linkedin?

captainstormy
10-24-2012, 12:28
The first thing I do upon new employment is read the manual. I've come across passages with stuff like that - and in all cases ended up choosing not to work there.

My response to your posting is to sympathize with the situation and vested involvement all around with that restriction. To me, everything that can cause me to end up unemployed that is beyond my control is a stressor.

Under the thumb of that company policy restriction i'd be looking for another job, and in the face of my quality of life versus the economy or available jobs or whatever are irrelevant. I'd switch careers if necessary to get out from under the thumb of being worried about losing my job like that.

Not trying to offer advice or anything, but i'd rather dig ditches in the rain at near day laborers rate then exist under a crappy set of rules like that regardless of what it paid. Not enough wealth in the world to make me want to carry that stress with me into my personal time.

She knew about it when she started there. The company isn't that bad to work for overall, they just have a silly sick policy that encourages employees to show up to work sick.

I was just pointing out to one poster that sometimes of its the companies policy that's to blame for people showing up sick.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

RWE
10-24-2012, 12:39
Here in Kentucky we have laws on the books that say I can have it in my personal vehicle, on their property. Sure you don't have one?

JMS
10-24-2012, 12:42
I am interested to hear the final outcome of this. Though I kinda doubt we will hear what happens in the end if it doesn't go your way, if you don't really have the authority you think you have, and nothing gets changed.

Agreed. (if the conversation even ever happened)

DanaT
10-24-2012, 13:15
(if the conversation even ever happened)

I am not drinking when at my house. I save that for when I am on the other side of the world.

GD2J
10-24-2012, 13:16
Unless you are the Owner of the company, or have "Chief" or "President" in front of your title, you wil have no influence with HR when it comes to weapons policy.

What's your title?

Kinda trollish to not mention this upfront.

If you indeed have the position and authority to make policy changes in the company you work for, why not just mention that from the beginning?

I am interested to hear the final outcome of this. Though I kinda doubt we will hear what happens in the end if it doesn't go your way, if you don't really have the authority you think you have, and nothing gets changed.

Curious about this.

DanaT
10-24-2012, 13:17
Agreed.

The policies are being updated for me to have a look at.

She still is trying to convince me that one big PTO bank is the right way to go. I didnt really read through the industry report (HR) why one big PTO bank is the way to go. It just an "increasing trend" and therefore its good. The "traditional" sick time is decreasing trend.

Still doesnt mean I like it.

ilgunguygt
10-24-2012, 13:24
I find that people coming in here solely to attack by calling names and insisiting that the OP is lying funny. Typical glock talk.

If you would have started this thread saying that you dont like the policy but signed it and will abide by it you would pobably have the same people crucifying you with the exact opposite argument. So goes glocktalk.

gwalchmai
10-24-2012, 13:31
I wish the HR Director would post here. Yeah, like an HR director would have enough sense to figure out how to post AND have the gumption to even log on to a weapons site.

czsmithGT
10-24-2012, 13:36
Why yes I am. That is why I marked up the policies and told the HR director to come back with revised policies. She wanted me to "compromise." My compromise was " I am right, come back with different policies"

The reason I said "company policy" is I am essentially exempt from the rules because I am not a US employee. I just dont think its right that I can do it and the rest of the employees cannot.

If you are not a US employee, then what gives you the authority to dictate a change in company policy for US operations? And as far as being exempt from the rules, wouldn't you be required to follow all the rules of a facility you entered regardless of whether you were a US employee, and non-US employee, a visitor, etc?

holesinpaper
10-24-2012, 22:37
I typically give beer as a corporate gift. Never had a company say no yet.

Diesel McBadass
10-24-2012, 22:46
i cant find an anonymous hr email for me, which sucks

AK_Stick
10-24-2012, 22:54
If you are not a US employee, then what gives you the authority to dictate a change in company policy for US operations? And as far as being exempt from the rules, wouldn't you be required to follow all the rules of a facility you entered regardless of whether you were a US employee, and non-US employee, a visitor, etc?



Uh, because he's probably higher in the company scheme than a local HR director.


As for rules, again, it really depends who you are, and what rules you're breaking.


Management gets treated differently, and thats just how it is, because we ARE different.

Gallium
10-24-2012, 23:20
Unless you are the Owner of the company, or have "Chief" or "President" in front of your title, you wil have no influence with HR when it comes to weapons policy.


This is not true in many cases. I know a bunch of companies that do not allow HR to be involved in weapons policy. That is the domain of the actuaries :supergrin: and the director(s) of security.

HollowHead
10-24-2012, 23:23
"I cant' carry...bring booze...make them pay for my birth control..." When did we become such a nation of whiners? HH

Gallium
10-24-2012, 23:26
Dana has posted a lot of times here that he is involved in the design and IIRC supervises manufacturing of medical devices. I wish folks would take into consideration the background of the person before they hit the reply button.

Just imagine Dragoon complaining about being carded at the store when he tried to buy beer. See how ****ing improbable that is?

Naelbis
10-24-2012, 23:31
Because it is interesting to see what people say. Most of the responses are "do as your told", "you need to look for a new job", etc.

I said I had a discussion. That in of itself is very clear. When do people have "discussions" with HR? HR normally lectures people unless they are forced to have discussions.

A discussion implies two-way communication. When have you ever had a two-way conversation with HR about policy?

I have had "discussions" with my bosses and HR before...namely because I can A) read, B) comprehend labor laws and C) refused to be pushed around when I am in the right. Of course, doing so when one is a peon is generally not beneficial to career growth. Which is why I am still employed(and barring major stupidity on my part will always be) but will "NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" be promoted or given a good eval no matter how good my work is. Such is life in public service.

And if I recall from some other threads correctly DanaT, aren't you some high level exec type for a German medical corporation? You are setting up a manufacturing site in CO if I remember right.

HollowHead
10-24-2012, 23:34
Dana has posted a lot of times here that he is involved in the design and IIRC supervises manufacturing of medical devices. I wish folks would take into consideration the background of the person before they hit the reply button.


Is this thread about medical devices? HH

larry_minn
10-24-2012, 23:38
They WILL be searching your car within first month (I would bet $$ on it)
On weapons you could make comment of shootings and how the signs didn't stop them (wow)

WarCry
10-25-2012, 01:06
What kind of state do you live in that you would need CCW to carry a weapon on your employer's private property? If you're in a position to dictate, why this restriction?

Even in IL, the last bastion of no carry at all, and employer is completely free to permit their employees to carry at work. Why would you want to limit the rights of employees in such a way?

TBO
10-25-2012, 01:23
I would like to seek some clarification. Is the below true?



No one forced to take the job
You can quit if you don't like it


True/correct?

M&P15T
10-25-2012, 07:06
I wouldn't believe another word out of the OP on this topic. He trolled from the beginning, and still plays with folks about the entire picture and facts.

He stands to lose too much of his ego-driven "face" if things don't go the way he has told everyone they would. So, he'll either let this thread die and never follow-up in it, or just lie about it.

Gallium
10-25-2012, 07:18
I wouldn't believe another word out of the OP on this topic. He trolled from the beginning, and still plays with folks about the entire picture and facts.

He stands to lose too much of his ego-driven "face" if things don't go the way he has told everyone they would. So, he'll either let this thread die and never follow-up in it, or just lie about it.


Not sure why it's such a big issue for you. How do we know for sure your adopted mom/aunt was really sick? There was a "Dr. Moriarity" and a "Laura" and a "Richard" here a few years ago, some of the best hoodwinkers we ever saw.

You can take his post(s) for entertainment, ignore him...or get worked up over it. Unless you actually know someone here, or you see them on video/in the news, who the hell knows what whoppers are being spun here daily?


- G

DanaT
10-25-2012, 07:22
I would like to seek some clarification. Is the below true?



No one forced to take the job
You can quit if you don't like it


True/correct?


True.

And the other part that is true is that the policies will be updated. They are being updated this week and will be ready for my review on Monday.

HexHead
10-25-2012, 07:36
(deleted) your rules, i'm rick james, (deleted)

Yeah, that was pretty much Rick. I worked on his Superfreak album.

HexHead
10-25-2012, 07:40
Seriously, sometimes you got to shut up and nod in agreement, so no one would suspect that you are breaking the rules later.



He didn't say, but she may have wanted him to sign something saying he'd abide by company policies?

DanaT
10-25-2012, 08:02
Dana has posted a lot of times here that he is involved in the design and IIRC supervises manufacturing of medical devices. I wish folks would take into consideration the background of the person before they hit the reply button.

There you go. If it happens in the USA, it is my problem.

DanaT
10-25-2012, 08:04
They WILL be searching your car within first month (I would bet $$ on it)

How much are you betting?

JMS
10-25-2012, 08:24
And if I recall from some other threads correctly DanaT, aren't you some high level exec type for a German medical corporation? You are setting up a manufacturing site in NM if I remember right.

Madrigal Electromotive GmbH

gwalchmai
10-25-2012, 08:32
Madrigal Electromotive GmbHThat is a VERY diversified company (http://madrigalelectromotive.com/). :cool:

Dennis in MA
10-25-2012, 11:57
Decided to take a peek.

Yup. This is a no-win, Dana. SHoulda skipped the quirky "look at me" attitude early on.

You are either a peon and you are creating a policy that will clearly work against you. . .

OR

You are higher-up enough to make a policy that will be for your benefit only AND will work against the rest of the staff. (Why have a policy at all? How about "CCW means CCW. We don't tolerate illegal carry of firearms."????) You became the controlling corporate toad that you claim to fighting against.

Sad. A policy could have been set out to help any and every one. Power corrupts. :(

JMS
10-25-2012, 12:26
SHoulda skipped the quirky "look at me" attitude early on.

As opposed to?

ilgunguygt
10-25-2012, 12:32
I wouldn't believe another word out of the OP on this topic. He trolled from the beginning, and still plays with folks about the entire picture and facts.

He stands to lose too much of his ego-driven "face" if things don't go the way he has told everyone they would. So, he'll either let this thread die and never follow-up in it, or just lie about it.
You seem to be really emotionally involved in this issue. The irony is you try to make it a "no matter what I am right" situation with your post above. Thats funny. I am willing to bet that DanaT doesnt give a damn what you think, to be honest, or that you are calling him a troll, liar, and whatever else. Just sayin.:rofl:

Con43
10-25-2012, 13:35
I would like to seek some clarification. Is the below true?



No one forced to take the job
You can quit if you don't like it


True/correct?



Love the way you always blow through the BS :perfect10:

TBO
10-25-2012, 14:02
True.

And the other part that is true is that the policies will be updated. They are being updated this week and will be ready for my review on Monday.
Thank you.
One further clarification question.



If you don't like something about your job (envenvironment, policy, procedure/etc), it's okay to try to effect a positive change in what you don't like (in lieu of just quitting), correct?

DanaT
10-25-2012, 20:21
Thank you.
One further clarification question.



If you don't like something about your job (envenvironment, policy, procedure/etc), it's okay to try to effect a positive change in what you don't like (in lieu of just quitting), correct?


Yes. Why would it not be OK to try and effect a change. The one caveat is "positive". One persons positive is often another person's negative. It often comes from a matter of perspective.

Sometimes its like peeing into the wind, and sometimes you can affect change. It all depends.

DanaT
10-25-2012, 20:29
You are higher-up enough to make a policy that will be for your benefit only AND will work against the rest of the staff. (Why have a policy at all? How about "CCW means CCW. We don't tolerate illegal carry of firearms."????) You became the controlling corporate toad that you claim to fighting against.


First, you didnt read. This is about more than CCW. It is about a few policies that I didnt like. I didnt like how the alcohol policy was written. I has nothing to do with if I think people should come to work drunk or not. I do not believe a company has a right to search a private vehicle as part of employment regardless if it is for alcohol, guns, dismembered bodies, etc.

Also, it was about the PTO/vacation. I do not like policies that encourage people to come to work sick.

As far as benefiting me, sure, I look out for myself first, as do most people.

IF you read what I said, is one thing that upsets me is most of these policies even exist. I am used to working where there are no set number of sick days. However, in the USA, that doesnt work because people abuse the system and hire lawyers to say they werent treated fair with very open and vague policies.

Another part of the policies I didnt like: no jeans. When I want to wear jeans to work, I do. I did not go into detail about the all the minor changes I wanted to the 30-40 manual.

Some of it, I didnt care about (i.e. HIPPA, EEO) as those are pretty much required by the govt.

Well, if CCW means CCW, then I wont know about, huh? I will only know if CCW is not CCW and then at that point, what do you suggest being done?

Since you are helpful, what do YOU think the policy should read?

DanaT
10-25-2012, 20:32
I wouldn't believe another word out of the OP on this topic. He trolled from the beginning, and still plays with folks about the entire picture and facts.

He stands to lose too much of his ego-driven "face" if things don't go the way he has told everyone they would. So, he'll either let this thread die and never follow-up in it, or just lie about it.

As I said earlier, the updated policies (not just CCW) should be ready for me to look at early next week.

DanaT
10-25-2012, 20:36
who the hell knows what whoppers are being spun here daily?


- G

And yet, you can tell what time zone I am in at any given time, based upon when I post (hint, I am not awake at 2am or 3am..well unless it is a rare weekend).

And even better, last time a great detective said I was another person, it was quite easy to go to speedtest dot net and it will show your ISP IP address and where it is located. Low and behold...mine was Germany a couple weeks ago.

You can always choose to believe or not believe what you want.

RenoF250
10-25-2012, 20:46
Since you are helpful, what do YOU think the policy should read?

I am no attorney but I think it should say something to the effect of:

DanaT corporation observes the laws of the states and jurisdictions it operates in and expects its' employees to do the same. Any illegal activity on company premises will be reported to the authorities and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Threats or acts of violence will not be tolerated and may result in the termination of the offending employee.

Gallium
10-26-2012, 03:54
And yet, you can tell what time zone I am in at any given time, based upon when I post (hint, I am not awake at 2am or 3am..well unless it is a rare weekend).

And even better, last time a great detective said I was another person, it was quite easy to go to speedtest dot net and it will show your ISP IP address and where it is located. Low and behold...mine was Germany a couple weeks ago.

You can always choose to believe or not believe what you want.


I did not express a sentiment that you were lying (THIS TIME :tongueout:), you pathological liar.

Another person cannot see your IP address information, unless they have access to the server logs, or unless you click on a link that takes you to a web site they control.

For me it is the opposite. I travel more than you do, but rarely talk about it in any great detail. Most of my logons to websites is thru a VPN tunnel to my server in my home state. Yes, if Eric or Mrs. VR were to look at my activity they would see a SLEW of logons from IP addresses that correspond to lots of different parts of the world, but for the most part those aberrant connections would reflect less than a certain % of time I use non VPN connections.

Let us know how the manual update goes. I will take CCW "wins" in any increment or style lawfully available to "us".

- G

DanaT
10-26-2012, 07:36
For me it is the opposite. I travel more than you do, but rarely talk about it in any great detail. Most of my logons to websites is thru a VPN tunnel to my server in my home state.

I feel sorry for you. I spend too much time on airplanes and it has slowed down. My previous position, I was flying about 260k a year. I am down to about 130k. About 6k (or 12k) is about the right amount of flying (that means flying for vacation). It is always, funny, people talk about how great it is to have all those frequent flyer miles. They don't realize when you travel a lot, you really don't want to travel more...

I am in one of two spots (unless I am screwing around on the weekend). Colorado or Germany. Of course, I go to Switzerland (and sometimes France) but its a matter of perspective. I can literally walk over the bridge to the other half of the town and be in Switerzland. Similarly, France is 15 minutes away. Basel is a 11 minutes by train.

But weekends when I am away I get bored and will do "strange" things like drive halfway across Germany to go see or do something.

As for VPN. I have no VPN. And for personal use like surfing (when I had a VPN) I never used the VPN. For one thing it slowed everything down, and for the other, why go through corporate computers to surf when not needed.

Bilbo Bagins
10-26-2012, 07:52
They WILL be searching your car within first month (I would bet $$ on it)
On weapons you could make comment of shootings and how the signs didn't stop them (wow)

This Thread needs a block pool. I like to put my money on 11/21/12. The Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Its just long enough for the dust to settle. Its a laid back day, the OP will probably have his firearm AND booze in this vehicle. They will also fire him before they pay for his days off for the holiday.

HexHead
10-26-2012, 07:59
Well, if CCW means CCW, then I wont know about, huh? I will only know if CCW is not CCW and then at that point, what do you suggest being done?

Since you are helpful, what do YOU think the policy should read?

How about "Our firearms policy is to follow the laws of the State of Colorado."?

DanaT
10-26-2012, 07:59
This Thread needs a block pool. I like to put my money on 11/21/12. The Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Its just long enough for the dust to settle. Its a laid back day, the OP will probably have his firearm AND booze in this vehicle. They will also fire him before they pay for his days off for the holiday.

Except that I will be in Europe...

DanaT
10-26-2012, 08:00
How about "Our firearms policy is to follow the laws of the State of insert"?

Because OC is allowed in the state, and I do not believe OC at work is appropriate.

kensb2
10-26-2012, 08:05
Because OC is allowed in the state, and I do not believe OC at work is appropriate.

I know this would be a "technicality" so to speak, but wouldn't it be smart to include some language about accidental exposure (of a weapon, but not a gun :tongueout:)? I'm not sure how most of the people in your office dress, but I'd guess that "business casual" could lead to a weapon possibly being seen momentarily by another employee. Just curious how you see that inevitability?

DanaT
10-26-2012, 08:08
accident exposure of a a gun :tongueout:)?

That I believe is covered under the sexual harassment rules.

DanaT
10-26-2012, 08:16
I know this would be a "technicality" so to speak, but wouldn't it be smart to include some language about accident exposure (of a weapon, but not a gun :tongueout:)? I'm not sure how most of the people in your office dress, but I'd guess that "business casual" could lead to a weapon possibly being seen momentarily by another employee. Just curious how you see that inevitability?

That is why I think that it is best that the company is notified of it and approves CCW. Then if there is accidental exposure it can be handled more easily.

I think if we are honest, we know that non-gun people seeing a gun (accidental exposure) in the company will panic. Control of the situation before-hand is required.

Realistically, with the number of CCW to non-CCW people, I doubt that anyone will have a CCW. I think it is MUCH more likely that people will have a gun in their car (the indoor shooting range is about 5 minutes away..who doesnt like to go shooting on lunch break??) especially during hunting/camping season. Moreover, CCW in the cleanroom would not be allowed for the same reason jewelery, make-up, phones, etc. Cleanrooms are a special area and keeping them clean with foreign objects is hard (even special paper is required because of particulates). And with platinum cure silicone elastomers, they are easily contaminated and wont cure with oils, sulfur, etc. So there are special considerations for some work areas.

Merlin40
10-26-2012, 10:36
Most policies have become very generic and state exactly what you said...no weapons, then they give some examples but are not all inclusive.

Don't be surprised to see it in the future stating "in the facilities and/or on the premises". Ours went from in the facility to on the premises (except as provided by law...some states over-ride a companies policy and allow people to keep firearms in their vehicles, even if contrary to company policy, with no recourse....OK is a good example...although I have heard there is a case in OK challenging this...haven't found it yet.)


:wavey:

red


There was a very LARGE corperation in OK, that stated as company policy, that weapons were not allowed in vehicles on company property. The employees fought the case, and won. I worked at a very large, nation-wide call center. They stated that weapons were also, not allowed in vehicles. The fact is, if it's an "open parking lot" i.e. not enclosed, and open to the public, according to OK state law, my vehicle is private property, and cannot be subjected to a search of ANY kind. In the best interest of my safety, and as a general rule, what I carry in my vehicle, is no ones business but mine. I don't get on a soapbox, and proclaim my "rights". Why give "them" a focus to address? Keep your private stuff, private.

mad.gunsmith
10-28-2012, 01:43
:popcorn:

owl6roll
10-28-2012, 02:20
Why yes I am. That is why I marked up the policies and told the HR director to come back with revised policies. She wanted me to "compromise." My compromise was " I am right, come back with different policies"

The reason I said "company policy" is I am essentially exempt from the rules because I am not a US employee. I just dont think its right that I can do it and the rest of the employees cannot.

Huummm....sounds like you are a wealthy man and rules don't apply to you.

Gallium
10-28-2012, 02:22
I feel sorry for you. I spend too much time on airplanes and it has slowed down. My previous position, I was flying about 260k a year. I am down to about 130k. About 6k (or 12k) is about the right amount of flying (that means flying for vacation). It is always, funny, people talk about how great it is to have all those frequent flyer miles. They don't realize when you travel a lot, you really don't want to travel more...

I am in one of two spots (unless I am screwing around on the weekend). Colorado or Germany. Of course, I go to Switzerland (and sometimes France) but its a matter of perspective. I can literally walk over the bridge to the other half of the town and be in Switerzland. Similarly, France is 15 minutes away. Basel is a 11 minutes by train.

But weekends when I am away I get bored and will do "strange" things like drive halfway across Germany to go see or do something.

As for VPN. I have no VPN. And for personal use like surfing (when I had a VPN) I never used the VPN. For one thing it slowed everything down, and for the other, why go through corporate computers to surf when not needed.



VPNs have come a long way. I would not expect you to surf thru your company VPN for your personal stuff. I created a VPN to obfuscate my location when I travel. I have (many) separate VPNs for my tech clients as well.

Much of my US travel is commercial air. The logistics of moving people + crap overseas usually means I fly commercial to Florida/etc and then everyone gets loaded on a charter to go across the Atlantic, typically in hot places where 1st world accommodations are not to be expected, so we load as much crap as possible on the plane.

I like going to places, but despise USA commercial air travel. I am able to fly my family overseas in 1st/business 1x a year from the FF miles I earn, so I don't protest too loudly. :)

One of the big plusses for me being on a long flight is, I get some "me" time. I generally do not use the on board wifi, or turn on my computer much - except to do reports. I use that time to think, sleep, read a book, brood over stuff, get the creative juices cranked up/etc.

I particularly dislike commercial flights under 2.5hrs. You get all worked up to go onboard, and soon after, you are schlepping off the plane again. On my AA flights last week the FAs recognized me, and called me by name. I sheepishly reminded them that I had seen them the night before flying in (west coast). I got in, got work done, and was back out on the 1st am flight - all of which was done on their layover. Fortunately for us, no seats rolled about the cabin.

DanaT
10-28-2012, 07:55
I like going to places, but despise USA commercial air travel. I am able to fly my family overseas in 1st/business 1x a year from the FF miles I earn, so I don't protest too loudly. :)

That is why my family doesn't see why i dislike flying.

I have so many upgrades that never get used, it funny. If anyone is flying on united in the next three days, I have 2 upgrades that expire on the 31st. I can transfer them if you want them.

Drastic Plastic
10-28-2012, 15:17
Best of luck, Dana. I wish you well. But at my company, they would be typing up your discharge letter this weekend.

DanaT
10-28-2012, 15:38
Best of luck, Dana. I wish you well. But at my company, they would be typing up your discharge letter this weekend.


You must understand my work situation it is much different than most.

I work for a German company. Due to visa issues, under German law I am considered to be like a lawyer; I am a consultant that reports to the CEO. I get no sick time. No paid time off. No vacation. I get paid for days I work. I cannot receive the "benefits" or I would be considered an employee in Germany and that changes many things (visa, taxes, etc). It also really complicates what I am doing.

Our company is on-shoring to the USA (this means moving jobs to the USA). There is a lot of leg work to be done before actual production starts in the USA.

But to make the story short, on paper I am a part owner (small) of the USA corp and the most executive officer in the USA. For a foreign company to operate a subsidiary in the CO, a responsible corporate officer must be present in the USA. This is someone to go after in cases of tax evasion, fraud, etc, etc.

So although I am not a USA employee and draw no pay or salary in the USA, I am in a situation to influence the policies. That is why it is different.

snowcrash75
10-28-2012, 21:24
Every large company has a "no weapons" policy. Get use to it.

My company has a similar policy and I have a .380 and a 3" folder in my pockets everyday. No one knows, because I keep my mouth shut.

Except on the interweb :whistling:

snowcrash75
10-28-2012, 21:31
I just dont think its right that I can do it and the rest of the employees cannot.

I don't know you or your position, but I applaud you.

Jake Starr
10-29-2012, 05:45
Seems like HR is getting bigger and bossier all the time. Having to make sure everyone is compliant and avoid lawsuits and such...it can be a royal PITA. It seems to be this way across the board...:upeyes:

uhlawpup
10-29-2012, 09:19
That so many say to look for a new job and go along with it.

Well, I guess you could buy the company and change the policies...

Or you could start a competing company and put them out of business.

Otherwise, I suspect they'll ask to search your personal stuff soon... You'll refuse. You'll be terminated.

So, where are you looking for your next gig?

MrGlock21
10-29-2012, 15:54
No. (i need more characters sinceGT wont take "no.")

Hell, no.

(enough characters)

ArcAngel
10-29-2012, 15:55
I feel your pain, we are allowed to wear hawaiian shirts on Friday. I disagree with that!

ilgunguygt
10-29-2012, 16:05
You must understand my work situation it is much different than most.

I work for a German company. Due to visa issues, under German law I am considered to be like a lawyer; I am a consultant that reports to the CEO. I get no sick time. No paid time off. No vacation. I get paid for days I work. I cannot receive the "benefits" or I would be considered an employee in Germany and that changes many things (visa, taxes, etc). It also really complicates what I am doing.

Our company is on-shoring to the USA (this means moving jobs to the USA). There is a lot of leg work to be done before actual production starts in the USA.

But to make the story short, on paper I am a part owner (small) of the USA corp and the most executive officer in the USA. For a foreign company to operate a subsidiary in the CO, a responsible corporate officer must be present in the USA. This is someone to go after in cases of tax evasion, fraud, etc, etc.

So although I am not a USA employee and draw no pay or salary in the USA, I am in a situation to influence the policies. That is why it is different.

Well, I guess you could buy the company and change the policies...

Or you could start a competing company and put them out of business.

Otherwise, I suspect they'll ask to search your personal stuff soon... You'll refuse. You'll be terminated.

So, where are you looking for your next gig?
Reading comprehension?:rofl:

uhlawpup
10-30-2012, 04:40
Well, if you're part owner, a majority part, change the policies. If you're a minority owner, sell your share.

If this thread is just your need for mental stimulation, take a course in rhetoric at your local community college.

If you're just a troll, well, you know where we stand now.

AtlantaR6
10-30-2012, 04:48
Was reading the Ga. handgun law last night. It actually PROHIBITS companies from searching vehicles in a workplace parking lot, as well as prohibits making people agree to searches as a condition of employment. (with some exceptions of course)

droidfire
10-30-2012, 04:57
Was reading the Ga. handgun law last night. It actually PROHIBITS companies from searching vehicles in a workplace parking lot, as well as prohibits making people agree to searches as a condition of employment. (with some exceptions of course)

Nice to see freedom still exists somewhere in the USA.

MrGlock21
10-30-2012, 05:03
Well, if you're part owner, a majority part, change the policies. If you're a minority owner, sell your share.

If this thread is just your need for mental stimulation, take a course in rhetoric at your local community college.

If you're just a troll, well, you know where we stand now.



:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Be easy on the OP.
90% of ALL threads with the included arguing are exactly that: mental (egotistic) stimulation :exercise:

mollyzero
10-30-2012, 09:43
I find it amazing how long it took most people to realize that the OP was in a position of influence at his company..seemed clear to me from his 1st or 2nd post. In fact "as i am always right" was quite telling. LOL! I must be too 'corporatized', maybe thats why I got it immediately. His language is the straight "quick telling email from the CEO" type. Meh, I dont think he's a troll, and it doesn't matter if he is or isn't, im glad he's effecting some change to allow his employees more freedom. Good work.

DanaT
10-30-2012, 10:27
In fact "as i am always right" was quite telling. LOL! I must be too 'corporatized', maybe thats why I got it immediately. His language is the straight "quick telling email from the CEO" type.

Or maybe I have worked in it too long. HR women is one of my nemesis (I can say that too loud as my wife is HR). In general, the are women who claim to want to be "strategic partners" in a business and in reality just are a bunch of women wanting to make silly rules. The male HR people I also put in the women category.

DanaT
10-30-2012, 10:30
"as i am always right" was quite telling.


I was exaggerating. I have probably been wrong once or twice, I just can't remember when.

kensb2
10-30-2012, 10:31
It's Monday, and after lunch. Do we have any revisions yet?

DanaT
10-30-2012, 10:33
It's Monday, and after lunch. Do we have any revisions yet?

It before lunch and Tuesday.

I had jury duty yesterday so I didnt see her. I have lunch with clients today and havent actually made it to work yet.

But the revisions were ready friday. I just didnt read them.

certifiedfunds
10-30-2012, 10:36
I was exaggerating. I have probably been wrong once or twice, I just can't remember when.

You'll have to think back to when you and I disagreed on something here.

canis latrans
10-30-2012, 10:38
I was exaggerating. I have probably been wrong once or twice, I just can't remember when.

you're an intj, aren't you?

kensb2
10-30-2012, 10:38
It before lunch and Tuesday.

I had jury duty yesterday so I didnt see her. I have lunch with clients today and havent actually made it to work yet.

But the revisions were ready friday. I just didnt read them.

Holy crap, I can't believe I thought it was still Monday!! I guess I need some sleep, or something. Forgot you are 1 timezone to my left, not my right. :faint:

DanaT
10-30-2012, 10:44
Holy crap, I can't believe I thought it was still Monday!! I guess I need some sleep, or something. Forgot you are 1 timezone to my left, not my right. :faint:

I am sometimes mountain time, or sometimes Central European time.

But the brief discussion i had with her about the changes is that the dress code was changed to allow jeans, the weapons policy has been updated, no searches of personal property by the company (if we believe someone has pound of crack in their backpack at our office, then we should call LEO...if they believe there is probably cause, then they can search), but she is still trying to convince me about PTO and the "trend to go to all PTO" and how much better that is.I am still not buying that one how it is better. I think maybe it is "better" for the employer in a very short view way, but I really dislike people coming to work sick. Then everyone is sick. I want people to be encouraged to stay home. Hell, if it is a position that they can work from home when sick, so be it. I just do like having an office full of snotty (literally) people.

mollyzero
10-30-2012, 21:34
Or maybe I have worked in it too long. HR women is one of my nemesis (I can say that too loud as my wife is HR). In general, the are women who claim to want to be "strategic partners" in a business and in reality just are a bunch of women wanting to make silly rules. The male HR people I also put in the women category.

:rofl: As sexist as that was its strangely telling...our HR manager just started calling himself a "strategic partner"..and is teased a lot because he admits to being the (wo)man of the house, handles the cleaning, kid pickup, is bossed around by his wife a lot (openly)...and this is in Jamaica...wow, the corporate culture is worldwide it seems

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 22:05
Yesterday I was in the US office and will be there couple of weeks.

Anyways, the HR director gives me the company policies and rules. This is led to a discussion about things I disagreed with.

The two big ones were the weapons policy and the alcohol policy.

The first thing in the weapons policy was that no weapons were allowed on company property without exception. That didnt make me happy. The next one said that as a condition of employment that the company could search personal effects and vehicles for weapons if suspected and refusal would be termination. That made more more than unhappy.

Next up was alcohol. It said that alcohol was not allowed to be consumed on work time and people cant be under the influence on work time. I am OK with that. Then it said that alcohol, like weapons, could not be on company property. This I have a problem with. If I want to give someone a bottle of wine at work, that is 100% acceptable. There is a difference between having a bottle of alcohol and drinking.

The HR director told about how these are industry standard policies, everyone does it, blah, blah.

As I am always right, I told her I didn't agree with them and will not agree to follow those policies. This of course led to yet more discussions and her responses to me. She was telling me how not allowing weapons reduces workforce violence (no gun signs stop shootings you know). I remained right and said I won't agree to this.

It will be fun the next couple of weeks.

Your not in the wrong anywhere and I'm glad your standing firm on these issues. It's good to see there is a voice of reason that's on the side of what's right.

I'd like to hear her side of why she thinks your being unreasonable? (Which your not by the way.)

It will indeed be a interesting few weeks!


While I'm not armed while I'm on the job at the shop, I always have a firearm close. I'd rather loose my job than my life.

:wavey: