Glock 9mm major load data, HS6 [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Glock 9mm major load data, HS6


mike g35
10-23-2012, 09:29
I was just wondering if anyone had any 9mm major load data using HS6 for use in a Glock. I've been shooting USPSA open division with my 40 cal Carver Custom racegun but I want to switch to 9mm major for the added magazine capacity. Plus 9 major is much flatter shooting. I have data using AutoComp but I prefer to use HS6 for this as I do in my other loads to keep things more uniform and easy to keep track of. Please advise, thanks.
228557


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

F106 Fan
10-23-2012, 10:18
I thought the forums at BrianEnos.com got into this stuff.

Richard

mike g35
10-23-2012, 10:45
I thought the forums at BrianEnos.com got into this stuff.

Richard

They do and I've found info there but it's always good to gain as much data as possible, ESPECIALLY when dealing with something like 9mm major.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

WiskyT
10-23-2012, 16:13
It's simply a matter of adding more powder as you chrono rounds. You keep going until you hit your target velocity or your gun blows up. If your gun doesn't blow up, you keep going and just hope things don't add up and cause your gun to blow up at some time in the future. Nobody can really help you with that.

F106 Fan
10-23-2012, 16:36
WiskyT has it right ^^^

There isn't much discussion on this forum for loads that are completely off the charts.

If you really want to go 9mm major, why not try 9x25 Dillon? There is barrel that fits the G20 and the 10mm magazines are supposed to work.

I haven't looked for, nor have I seen, any load data for the 9x25 so, AFAIK, all the loads will be 'Internet loads' and, personally, I wouldn't shoot them on a bet.

Richard

Kentguy
10-23-2012, 16:49
mikeg35,

This is the only load info I have for 9mm using Hodgdon HS6 and the 124g FMJ bullet. I used my numbers from the Speer Reloading Manual #14, they tested their 9mm loads with a S&W M5906 w/4" barrel.

Primer - Federal - Small Pistol Primers #100
Bullet - 124g RN FMJ .355" dia. (Precision Delta)
Bullet length - .606 "
Powder - Hodgdon HS6- 6.5g
Powder range - 6.0g up to 6.7g (Speer)
Burn rate - #42 www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
Bullet seating OAL - 1.135" (Speer)
Velocity - 1,059 fps (for max 6.7g from Speer)
Velocity - 1,121.4 fps my 5 shot average @ 73 degrees
Test Gun - Glock 17 w/4.49" Barrel

You still have room to test here so work up your loads carefully. I hope this will give you someplace to start, good luck in your tests.

mike g35
10-23-2012, 20:01
mikeg35,

This is the only load info I have for 9mm using Hodgdon HS6 and the 124g FMJ bullet. I used my numbers from the Speer Reloading Manual #14, they tested their 9mm loads with a S&W M5906 w/4" barrel.

Primer - Federal - Small Pistol Primers #100
Bullet - 124g RN FMJ .355" dia. (Precision Delta)
Bullet length - .606 "
Powder - Hodgdon HS6- 6.5g
Powder range - 6.0g up to 6.7g (Speer)
Burn rate - #42 www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
Bullet seating OAL - 1.135" (Speer)
Velocity - 1,059 fps (for max 6.7g from Speer)
Velocity - 1,121.4 fps my 5 shot average @ 73 degrees
Test Gun - Glock 17 w/4.49" Barrel

You still have room to test here so work up your loads carefully. I hope this will give you someplace to start, good luck in your tests.

Thanks for the info!! I don't know why folks are so scared of 9mm major. I know ALOT of guys that run it every weekend and they NEVER have any issues. The typical load is 7.1gr of AutoComp using a quality 124gr FMJ at 1.150 OAL. I'm testing some 124's tomorrow with 7.1gr of HS6 at 1.135 using a PD 124gr FMJ. Looks like major will fall at around 8 grains with HS6, but I still prefer to load up to that as opposed to starting at some charge weight I got off the net. I actually have a 9mm racegun to test in, as I pass this current charge weight I'm going to lengthen my OAL. I'll just watch for signs of overpressure and step it up slowly. Thanks guys.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

MoNsTeR
10-23-2012, 21:03
You'll get to Major long before you see pressure signs with HS-6. With 124's, start at 7.4gr and go up by .2gr at a time, up to about 8.2gr. Depending on the powder lot and your barrel speed, you might need to go up a smidge more than that.

Zombie Steve
10-23-2012, 21:52
I don't know why folks are so scared of 9mm major.

Because there is absolutely no point in running the ragged edge for the sake of a gun game.

Those silly fellers with pressure testing gear don't even recommend trying major loads with .38 super:

Loads that make "major" have become the Super's stock in trade, but they must be approached with prudence and common sense. Some of the loads being used by competitors have been tested and found to give pressures as high as 50,000 CUP! For the record, Sierra emphatically does not recommend the use of "major" loads as a steady diet for any handgun. Such loads are terribly hard on the gun and dangerous to the shooter.


...and you want the same performance from a smaller cartridge. Food for thought.

Hoser
10-24-2012, 08:17
Those silly fellers with pressure testing gear have old guns, unsupported chambers and lawyers to worry about. If your gun is set up for it, have fun.

Cant help with the HS-6, I use Longshot.

Colorado4Wheel
10-24-2012, 09:25
It's simply a matter of adding more powder as you chrono rounds. You keep going until you hit your target velocity or your gun blows up. If your gun doesn't blow up, you keep going and just hope things don't add up and cause your gun to blow up at some time in the future. Nobody can really help you with that.

And you load as absolutely long as your barrel allows. Even have it reamed if you need to to get the length up to increase case volume.

Colorado4Wheel
10-24-2012, 09:29
Because there is absolutely no point in running the ragged edge for the sake of a gun game.

Well, if your not winning it's probably not worth it. :whistling:


:supergrin:

Zombie Steve
10-24-2012, 12:08
Well, if your not winning it's probably not worth it. :whistling:


:supergrin:

...says the guy that barely makes minor.

:tongueout:



I know it's all been done before, I just don't see how it's a good idea with a new or old gun. Like racing with a 4-cylinder Ford Fiesta and running it at 7,000 rpm's and expecting it to hang in there.

Colorado4Wheel
10-24-2012, 12:12
...says the guy that barely makes minor.

:tongueout:



132 PF is more then "barely"....And I get scored MINOR.

dkf
10-24-2012, 12:40
WiskyT has it right ^^^

There isn't much discussion on this forum for loads that are completely off the charts.

If you really want to go 9mm major, why not try 9x25 Dillon? There is barrel that fits the G20 and the 10mm magazines are supposed to work.

I haven't looked for, nor have I seen, any load data for the 9x25 so, AFAIK, all the loads will be 'Internet loads' and, personally, I wouldn't shoot them on a bet.

Richard

You can get major pretty easy and cheaper with .357sig vs 9x25. And you can buy a Glock from the factory ready to shoot it.

Colorado4Wheel
10-24-2012, 13:01
Using 357SIG brass will negate the extra capacity he wants. He needs 9mm Major with 9mm brass to load nearly 30 rds in the gun from the start. People do 9mm Major all the time. Before when they were running 175PF (and people loaded to 180PF or more) it was not very safe at all. Now PF for major is only 165PF and it's pretty easy to get major with 9mm. It's not factory level of pressure. But it's doable.

Zombie Steve
10-24-2012, 13:13
You can get major pretty easy and cheaper with .357sig vs 9x25. And you can buy a Glock from the factory ready to shoot it.

Nestled deep in the heart of each and every gear queer is the need for those extra few rounds. After all, it might mean changing mags an extra one or two times during the course of the match! Better to run 40,000+ psi loads in order to shave off that second and a half...

:upeyes::supergrin:























I'll apologize to everyone and just say that to me, when you are getting to the point where this stuff matters, it's like saying you are at the pinnacle in your game and there's absolutely no room for improvement. You have to find a different load or some gear to get any better. I know some people do get to that point. What the hell... I've fallen into the trap on an item or two myself (but not in a Little Stevie brokeback mountain sort of way :whistling: ).

It all reminds me of my 275 pound dad on water skis trying to get up out of the water as we pegged out the throttle on the bass tracker. :rofl:

Zombie Steve
10-24-2012, 13:25
132 PF is more then "barely"....And I get scored MINOR.

Wind been workin' in your favor lately?

:cool:

SARDG
10-24-2012, 13:28
Nestled deep in the heart of each and every gear queer is the need for those extra few rounds...

---when you are getting to the point where this stuff matters, it's like saying you are at the pinnacle in your game and there's absolutely no room for improvement. You have to find a different load or some gear to get any better...
Yep, that's Mike - one of our GSSF racer shooters. :wavey: :rofl:

Colorado4Wheel
10-24-2012, 13:30
Too me, the crazy part is shooting a Glock in open. Pick a better gun IMHO.

Lyman has standard pressure data to get the 9x21 to major. If you load 9mm long its basically the same as 9x21. Pressure is no a huge issue if you load long.

Zombie Steve
10-24-2012, 13:36
.38 Super Comp seems to be gaining popularity here too... just not going to do that in a Glock.

dkf
10-24-2012, 13:37
Using 357SIG brass will negate the extra capacity he wants. He needs 9mm Major with 9mm brass to load nearly 30 rds in the gun from the start. People do 9mm Major all the time. Before when they were running 175PF (and people loaded to 180PF or more) it was not very safe at all. Now PF for major is only 165PF and it's pretty easy to get major with 9mm. It's not factory level of pressure. But it's doable.

I thought one of the reasons for these leagues being around is to help make you a better shooter in real life situations? Real life situations can require mag changes. Yeah you are only going to get 24+1 of .357sig with a Glock 22rd mag with a OE +2 extension on it but I thought that would be enough. Hell you can get 9mm beta mags for Glocks now might as well just use those.:whistling:

Zombie Steve
10-24-2012, 13:46
I thought one of the reasons for these leagues being around is to help make you a better shooter in real life situations? Real life situations can require mag changes. Yeah you are only going to get 24+1 of .357sig with a Glock 22rd mag with a OE +2 extension on it but I thought that would be enough. Hell you can get 9mm beta mags for Glocks now might as well just use those.:whistling:


Despite the word "practical" in the name of the game, you shouldn't try and apply real life to this stuff. It won't make any sense when you see a guy shooting from an open doorway or leaving cover with an unloaded gun. For that matter, who carries an open gun?

It's about going fast, and it is pretty fun, but the sooner you get the p-word out of your head, the sooner you'll enjoy playing.

SARDG
10-24-2012, 13:53
Too me, the crazy part is shooting a Glock in open. Pick a better gun IMHO...
Mike keeps winning random guns in GSSF. Can't vouch for his skill, but Mike's luck is pretty good. :supergrin:

dkf
10-24-2012, 14:47
Despite the word "practical" in the name of the game, you shouldn't try and apply real life to this stuff. It won't make any sense when you see a guy shooting from an open doorway or leaving cover with an unloaded gun. For that matter, who carries an open gun?

It's about going fast, and it is pretty fun, but the sooner you get the p-word out of your head, the sooner you'll enjoy playing.

I'll admit I don't follow all the shooting leagues beyond what I read in magazines. I shot trap in local club competition years ago but did not care for the whining and childish behavior. I just like shooting.

The guys from "The Glock Store" sells what is close an open gun for "carry".:faint:

So Yay or Nay on this then?
http://betaco.com/cmag_product_details.asp?product=25

Kentguy
10-24-2012, 15:18
dkf,

Nice Glock "add-on" but... That's like buying a Ferrari 599XX and only driving it to Wal-Mart & back... :dunno: 100 rounds hanging off of a Glock, now that's gotta weight a TON!

dkf
10-24-2012, 15:50
dkf,

Nice Glock "add-on" but... That's like buying a Ferrari 599XX and only driving it to Wal-Mart & back... :dunno: 100 rounds hanging off of a Glock, now that's gotta weight a TON!

But it eliminates mag changes.:supergrin:

Kentguy
10-24-2012, 16:12
dkf,

You know I didn't think of that! See you learn something new every day. :thumbsup:

Colorado4Wheel
10-24-2012, 16:12
Mike keeps winning random guns in GSSF. Can't vouch for his skill, but Mike's luck is pretty good. :supergrin:

GSSF is not USPSA. You have shot a Glock in GSSF. Didn't know GSSF had a power factor. I don't shoot it.

mike g35
10-24-2012, 17:40
Mike keeps winning random guns in GSSF. Can't vouch for his skill, but Mike's luck is pretty good. :supergrin:

Well after the last few matches I can clear that up.....it's NOT skill!!!!! LOL Not at all!!!! LOL
There's alot of folks telling me what I should or shouldn't do and I'm taking it this is based off their knowledge of the sport? In USPSA mag changes (admittedly not at my level) can make or break times according to me and everyone else i know that competes. Plus I'm just looking for data to TEST this right now, I'm not sure whether its going to be as flat shooting as my 40 is right now but I think it's worth a look. So any data would be appreciated. :) Thanks.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

SARDG
10-24-2012, 20:33
GSSF is not USPSA. You have shot a Glock in GSSF. Didn't know GSSF had a power factor. I don't shoot it.
No PF in GSSF - just sayin' Mike can often get Glocks to play with, easier and cheaper than other guns. Me too.

shotgunred
10-24-2012, 21:24
A quick look at underwood ammo site shows he is selling major power factor 9mm ammo with both 124gr and 147gr.

It is widely claimed (in caliber corner) that he uses IMR 800-X.

MoNsTeR
10-24-2012, 23:09
Because there is absolutely no point in running the ragged edge for the sake of a gun game.


1. It's not the "ragged edge". You cannot fit enough 3N37 or 7625 (just to pick two I've used extensively) in a 9mm case to cause a KB. Titegroup in .40 is much more dangerous, and no one gets flak for running that. I've pierced primers loading .40 Major and 9mm Minor, but barely had so much as a split neck loading 9mm Major.

2. There absolutely is a point. That is, if you grant that there's a point in playing games at all, and playing with winning in mind, then there is clearly a point in doing it what it takes to win. Shooting Minor in Open does not win matches.

I've loaded and fired over 20,000 rounds of 9mm Major, safely. There are now at least 10 USPSA shooters in Eastern Colorado (that I know, probably more that I don't) running 9mm Major guns, safely. I just got back from Open Nationals where plenty of other shooters were running 9mm Major, safely.

What factory ballisticians have to say on this subject is not of much interest. Their jobs require them not to ever say or write anything "outside the lines". Have any of them tested pressures of Major loads in 38 Super/Supercomp, using all ~15 viable powders across all 3 popular bullet weights? I would guess that no one has. And likewise for 9mm Major loads? Fat chance (except for that one 147gr load in the VV book that makes Major...). So dire warnings of 50,000 CUP are not terribly persuasive (never mind how asinine of a unit CUP is to begin with).

9mm Major isn't everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. But if you're going to wave the panic flag and call it unsafe, some evidence would be nice, or at least a reasoned argument instead of pure assertion. Particularly in the presence of so much contrary evidence showing that it is, in fact, safe.

dkf
10-25-2012, 06:23
Titegroup in .40 is much more dangerous, and no one gets flak for running that.

You don't stop in here much do you?

Zombie Steve
10-25-2012, 10:07
1. It's not the "ragged edge". You cannot fit enough 3N37 or 7625 (just to pick two I've used extensively) in a 9mm case to cause a KB. Titegroup in .40 is much more dangerous, and no one gets flak for running that. I've pierced primers loading .40 Major and 9mm Minor, but barely had so much as a split neck loading 9mm Major.

2. There absolutely is a point. That is, if you grant that there's a point in playing games at all, and playing with winning in mind, then there is clearly a point in doing it what it takes to win. Shooting Minor in Open does not win matches.

I've loaded and fired over 20,000 rounds of 9mm Major, safely. There are now at least 10 USPSA shooters in Eastern Colorado (that I know, probably more that I don't) running 9mm Major guns, safely. I just got back from Open Nationals where plenty of other shooters were running 9mm Major, safely.

What factory ballisticians have to say on this subject is not of much interest. Their jobs require them not to ever say or write anything "outside the lines". Have any of them tested pressures of Major loads in 38 Super/Supercomp, using all ~15 viable powders across all 3 popular bullet weights? I would guess that no one has. And likewise for 9mm Major loads? Fat chance (except for that one 147gr load in the VV book that makes Major...). So dire warnings of 50,000 CUP are not terribly persuasive (never mind how asinine of a unit CUP is to begin with).

9mm Major isn't everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. But if you're going to wave the panic flag and call it unsafe, some evidence would be nice, or at least a reasoned argument instead of pure assertion. Particularly in the presence of so much contrary evidence showing that it is, in fact, safe.

Never said it isn't possible to get away with. I said it's all been done before. I'm just saying that I don't see it as particularly smart to operate 9mm in the +P+ range as your range / gamer load. There are just better options out there, like the 38 super / super comp if you're just totally unwilling to give up any capacity.

Lyman 49 indeed has published pressure data for 38 Super. You'll be happy to know that there are 6 loads that make major pf. Of course, none of the 9mm loads do. Bottom line - you're running a 9mm damn hard to make major pf. You want to pull a fifth wheel with a V6, you can, but the truck is working much harder to do the same job as a V8.

Zombie Steve
10-25-2012, 10:08
You don't stop in here much do you?

:supergrin::whistling:

TG gets quite a bit of bashing around these parts.

F106 Fan
10-25-2012, 11:49
:supergrin::whistling:

TG gets quite a bit of bashing around these parts.

So does 9mm Major :whistling:

There are better forums for the discussion including over at BrianEnos.com. I just read through one of many discussions and a number of people are loading 9mm Major.

Richard

dkf
10-25-2012, 12:56
A quick look at underwood ammo site shows he is selling major power factor 9mm ammo with both 124gr and 147gr.

It is widely claimed (in caliber corner) that he uses IMR 800-X.

He is using new Starline brass also. How many reloadings can you get out of 9mm brass loading near max loads?

Kinda like reloading .357sig to 1475+ over and over. On used brass I stay under 1400fps with a 125gr bullet. Not interested in KBs.

WiskyT
10-25-2012, 13:10
1. It's not the "ragged edge". You cannot fit enough 3N37 or 7625 (just to pick two I've used extensively) in a 9mm case to cause a KB. Titegroup in .40 is much more dangerous, and no one gets flak for running that. I've pierced primers loading .40 Major and 9mm Minor, but barely had so much as a split neck loading 9mm Major.

2. There absolutely is a point. That is, if you grant that there's a point in playing games at all, and playing with winning in mind, then there is clearly a point in doing it what it takes to win. Shooting Minor in Open does not win matches.

I've loaded and fired over 20,000 rounds of 9mm Major, safely. There are now at least 10 USPSA shooters in Eastern Colorado (that I know, probably more that I don't) running 9mm Major guns, safely. I just got back from Open Nationals where plenty of other shooters were running 9mm Major, safely.

What factory ballisticians have to say on this subject is not of much interest. Their jobs require them not to ever say or write anything "outside the lines". Have any of them tested pressures of Major loads in 38 Super/Supercomp, using all ~15 viable powders across all 3 popular bullet weights? I would guess that no one has. And likewise for 9mm Major loads? Fat chance (except for that one 147gr load in the VV book that makes Major...). So dire warnings of 50,000 CUP are not terribly persuasive (never mind how asinine of a unit CUP is to begin with).

9mm Major isn't everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. But if you're going to wave the panic flag and call it unsafe, some evidence would be nice, or at least a reasoned argument instead of pure assertion. Particularly in the presence of so much contrary evidence showing that it is, in fact, safe.

Just because you don't understand what CUP is and how it works doesn't make it asinine. Analog testing methods are very precise, often more precise than digital. How do you think we developed the A-bomb?

VV major 147 load has been reduced as I remember it and it didn't make major as claimed in most of the posts I've read. 9mm major is doable, sure. It gets done every day. But it is not within the pressure limits "normal" guns are made to run at. Using a purpose built gun, loading to 38 Super OAL, and getting it done makes some sense as 9mm brass is basically free. But it's not 9mm anymore. It's a wildcat. That's what all these goofball gamers should be doing, having a lab develope legitimate data for a 9mm wildcat cartridge using standard 9x19 brass and for use in guns custom chambered for it. They could give it a name, standardize it, and publish load data. Then people wouldn't have to just keep adding powder until they get the target velocity and hoping the don't KB something (then or down the road).

It's goofy and dumb to have all these people running overpressure ammo in proximity to other people who could get hurt. It's not my problem as I'll never be at a USPSA match. But, they ought to put a sign over the firing line warning people that they could get an extractor to the temple. If my club ever tries to get USPSA matches going, I'll be at a meeting making a motion to prohibit 9mm major. We have enough problems with match shooters in all kinds of disciplines violating the Four Rules etc on a regular basis.

dougader
10-28-2012, 15:37
The limiting factor for long loading 9 Major in Glocks is the magazine. I was never able to load longer than about 1.134" and have any kind of reliability with the load. I made the old 175 PF with 115 jhp's and AA7 powder. That's running over 1525 fps with the 115 jhp's. When they banned 9mm major, I got a 9x21 BarSto barrel and loaded to the same pressures as before with the 9x19 case.

A 1911 allows 1.169" COAL and lower pressures. A wide body 1911, say a ParaOrd frame, gives you ~20 rounds to play with. My Crawley Custom is in 9x23 Winchester and it runs 125's easily to 1500 fps. It has a Para frame, Caspian slide and a supported Nowlin barrel. 9mm Super Comp brass from Starline is available for the masses.

I never used more than 1 pound of HS6. After a mtach I always has unburned granules of powder all over the insides of my gun. Not so with VV 3n37 and AA7. With all the new powders available I don't see the draw to HS6 (unless you have a keg of it to burn anyway).

PhilD
12-05-2012, 06:32
I was never able to load longer than about 1.134" and have any kind of reliability with the load. I run an OAL of 1.160" with no problems at all with a KKM barrel. If I go to 1.170" I start getting mag issues.

dougader
12-05-2012, 18:43
I run an OAL of 1.160" with no problems at all with a KKM barrel. If I go to 1.170" I start getting mag issues.

The issue was not the barrel, but the area in the opening of the slide. It was too short to eject a loaded round. I always had to shoot the last round to get it out of the gun.

WiskyT
12-05-2012, 19:39
The issue was not the barrel, but the area in the opening of the slide. It was too short to eject a loaded round. I always had to shoot the last round to get it out of the gun.

In a Glock? I load to 1.150 and have room to spare in terms of the ejector port.

PhilD
12-06-2012, 09:39
I haven't had any ejection issues at all with loaded rounds, even at 1.170" the only issues I had were mag issues. Maybe the ejector was too long?

SDGlock23
12-06-2012, 16:58
I think Longshot can do 9mm major. I'm not sure the bbl length the OP is running, but I've got the 124gr over 1300 fps before with Longshot (6gr), but need 1335 to make major, a long barrel would definitely be your friend here. I would think it might be a lot easier sticking with the .40.

dougader
12-06-2012, 18:45
I wish I still had the gun, a 1st gen G17. If I loaded longer than 1.134" or so it was impossible to eject loaded rounds. The window was too small. I don't know, maybe that has changed?

I started out just loading as long as I could and still be able to load the rounds in the magazine with good reliability. All was great until I tried to eject a loaded round from the chamber... :dunno:

WiskyT
12-06-2012, 18:50
I wish I still had the gun, a 1st gen G17. If I loaded longer than 1.134" or so it was impossible to eject loaded rounds. The window was too small. I don't know, maybe that has changed?

I started out just loading as long as I could and still be able to load the rounds in the magazine with good reliability. All was great until I tried to eject a loaded round from the chamber... :dunno:

I've ejected factory rounds out of 1st gen G17's that were much longer than 1.134. Saami is something like 1.170. There is no way Glock, or anybody, would sell a gun that can't be cleared other than by shooting it. Are you saying that all those Glocks can't be cleared? Was your Glock different than everybody elses'?

dougader
12-06-2012, 18:54
I don't know what ELSE to tell you. It WOULD NOT EJECT LOADED ROUNDS AT EVEN 1.140"

Boxerglocker
12-07-2012, 07:47
I don't know what ELSE to tell you. It WOULD NOT EJECT LOADED ROUNDS AT EVEN 1.140"

I can believe it... Some Gen 1 G17s were known to have slightly smaller ejection ports causing this issue made more prevalent by the 90 degree extractor angle. Dale Rhea talks about it in several of his blogs and gives numerous detail fixes for milling/machining out the ejection ports in limited and open GSSF guns.

MikeG35, have a look over at Gunbots blog http://gunbot.wordpress.com/ Loke has moved over from .38 Super comp to 9mm Major this year and has been developing a 9mm Major load over the closing months of the last season. He has a thread going over there detailing his load development with various bullets. I heard he actually got a partial Hodgdon sponsorship so is using HS-6 as his primary 9mm Major powder. I know and shoot with Loke he's one of our core guys in NWPPA and wouldn't surprise me to know in his research and load development that he's been in contact with Hodgdon getting as much information as possible.

WiskyT
12-07-2012, 08:02
I can believe it... Some Gen 1 G17s were known to have slightly smaller ejection ports causing this issue made more prevalent by the 90 degree extractor angle. Dale Rhea talks about it in several of his blogs and gives numerous detail fixes for milling/machining out the ejection ports in limited and open GSSF guns.


I read the Dale Rhea stuff and he lowered the ejection port to help spent brass clear a scope. I didn't see any mention of it concerning unfired ammo not fitting out of the ejection port and needing to be fired. Do you have any further info on this?

This would be an incredibly dangerous situation, a gun that can't be unloaded. By incredible, I mean just that, not to be believed. It would be like Honda selling cars with no brakes. The Austrian army etc were issued guns that couldn't be cleared?

Boxerglocker
12-07-2012, 08:52
I read the Dale Rhea stuff and he lowered the ejection port to help spent brass clear a scope. I didn't see any mention of it concerning unfired ammo not fitting out of the ejection port and needing to be fired. Do you have any further info on this?

This would be an incredibly dangerous situation, a gun that can't be unloaded. By incredible, I mean just that, not to be believed. It would be like Honda selling cars with no brakes. The Austrian army etc were issued guns that couldn't be cleared?

Yes, Dales mods primarily are for scope clearance issues on open guns. He however also talks of opening of ports for better extraction in general.

Obviously this was a design issue on Glocks part, much like the cracking frame issue there have been several incidents of manufacturing escapements that may or may not affect the reliability of some/all guns. It didn't happen with all short loaded rounds, in all bullet profiles and when fired and cycled normally no issues. Just when hand cycling.

The issue was not the barrel, but the area in the opening of the slide. It was too short to eject a loaded round. I always had to shoot the last round to get it out of the gun.


I have read in the past from Dales blogs and others about certain GEN 1 guns being uncooperative in respect to ejection issues with longer bullets. That is one the main reasons Glock went to the 45 degree extractor angle (gives a larger opening). It all depends on the cycling pattern of the gun. A combination of tight port with 90 degree extractor, hand cycling, weak spring etc... It can happen. Just recently the Gen 4 issues. In the past the extractor claws on the LCIs when first released.

I'll pull a few of my Glock build reference books and PM you the titles and chapters when I get a chance. Off Like I said, I have read of such issues, however never owned a Gen 1 so can't say that it could never happen.

SARDG
12-07-2012, 08:58
...This would be an incredibly dangerous situation, a gun that can't be unloaded. By incredible, I mean just that, not to be believed. It would be like Honda selling cars with no brakes. The Austrian army etc were issued guns that couldn't be cleared?
Didn't look very hard, but maybe NATO spec 124s have an OAL of =/<1.134. I did measure some AE factory 124 FMJs I have around and they were way long... 1.150.

Colorado4Wheel
12-07-2012, 09:34
I wish I still had the gun, a 1st gen G17. If I loaded longer than 1.134" or so it was impossible to eject loaded rounds. The window was too small. I don't know, maybe that has changed?

I started out just loading as long as I could and still be able to load the rounds in the magazine with good reliability. All was great until I tried to eject a loaded round from the chamber... :dunno:

Factory WWB (which is RN) is close to 1.169.
MOST JHP are much shorter from the factory. Never measured one that is that long.

What Ammo are you referring to? JHP, RN, TC?

If the port was too small you would send it back to GLOCK and they would correct the machining error.

A properly made Glock will eject RN rounds that are 1.169". Of this I have zero doubt. But if you are loading JHP's to 1.169 (which is not a within spec round) you can easily have issues.

Colorado4Wheel
12-07-2012, 09:37
Yes, Dales mods primarily are for scope clearance issues on open guns. He however also talks of opening of ports for better extraction in general.


Glad you brought that up. That he is running a open gun in 9mm Major. I am sure he is loading as long as possible, he is likely using JHP's as well or some TC bullet of some sort. Either way, adding a scope that is near the ejection port is not a issue Glock even should consider. That is on the open gun builder. If that is the entire issue under discussion then this is a silly conversation.

dougader
12-07-2012, 22:06
By incredible, I mean just that, not to be believed. It would be like Honda selling cars with no brakes. The Austrian army etc were issued guns that couldn't be cleared?

.

.. or like Toyotas careening out of control down the highway... :upeyes:

WiskyT
12-07-2012, 22:11
.

.. or like Toyotas careening out of control down the highway... :upeyes:

Yeah, funny how all of that happened just when obama took over Toyota's biggest competitor, GM. Also, funny how none of that was able to be reproduced under any kind of lab conditions by anybody including the US gov. Also funny how it just happens to dovetail with income for trial lawyers. I like how the CHP officer who killed his family in one couldn't figure out how to turn the car off or pop it in N when they are known to some of the best trained emergency drivers in the world. Why investigate it as a murder/suicide when you can bushel it off on the latest craze of runaway Toyotas. And yes, I owned a Toyota at that time and refused to let the dealer do the "upgrade" every time they changed the oil. So, no, I don't believe that Toyota would sell a car that couldn't be stopped.

dougader
12-07-2012, 22:44
My stepmother had it happen twice to her before all the news accounts of this came out. She just traded it in on another car because she didn't trust it. Luckily for her the "accidents" only involved property damage.

WiskyT
12-07-2012, 22:59
My stepmother had it happen twice to her before all the news accounts of this came out. She just traded it in on another car because she didn't trust it. Luckily for her the "accidents" only involved property damage.

It happens every day. It happens with every make of car. I have personally taken reports of people who have rammed their cars right through their garages. It's driver error or some type of mechanical failure that can be found. What is the failure in Toyotas? NO ONE knows. We know why Space shuttles blew up, they reconstruct plane crashes and find washers that fail, but no one, not the Govt. not the trial lawyers, can find one thing that fails in the Toyotas.

I'm sure your step-mother is a lovely woman, but I put her in the same group as people who shoot their TV's and claim the gun went off by itself. Operator error.

Colorado4Wheel
12-08-2012, 05:42
Brakes just don't work. It's the cars fault. Audi got crucified for this. American's have such a lazy attitude about driving it's impossible to make a care safe enough for this group of inattentive idiots.

WiskyT
12-08-2012, 06:05
Brakes just don't work. It's the cars fault. Audi got crucified for this. American's have such a lazy attitude about driving it's impossible to make a care safe enough for this group of inattentive idiots.

Seasoned citizens are notorious for stabbing the accelerator instead of the brake. One time a guy drove completely through his detached garage and off the retaining wall behind it into his neighbor's yard. He was decent, and lucent enough, to admit he hit the wrong pedal.

There isn't a car on the road that the brakes won't overpower the engine even at full throttle. I've seen demos on TV with 6 liter AMG's going 70 and both pedals stomped to the floor, the cars stopped.

Yes, Audi got railroaded thanks to 60 minutes or 20/20 whichever.

dougader
12-08-2012, 13:09
Right, My step mom is an idiot. She has been driving for decades and never had anything like this happen before, or since! She has driven Lincoln, Cadillac, Ford, Chev, Toyota and Nissan. So it couldn't be the fault of the new Toyota she bought, even though she and my father have been driving Toyota vehicles since 1978!

Since she traded the LEMON off, and got ... what? another Toyota!... she has had no problem.