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fairfax1
10-23-2012, 10:59
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/more-than-30000-registered-machine-guns-in-virginia-highest-total-in-nation/2012/10/22/3b0a3ea6-1c17-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html?hpid=z4

ROANOKE, Va. — Virginia leads the nation in the number of legally owned machine guns that are fully automatic, according to federal figures.

There were 30,220 registered fully automatic machine guns in Virginia as of March. Florida had the second-highest total with 29,128, followed by California with 28,774. Nationally, there were nearly 500,000 registered machine guns, according to an annual report from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

“Machine guns actually are a really good example of why strong gun laws work,” said Daniel Vice, senior attorney with the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

More story available on the link above.

Clutch Cargo
10-23-2012, 11:02
"machine guns that are fully automatic"
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

CitizenOfDreams
10-23-2012, 13:08
Fully really truly automatic, no (shoe)strings attached?

PVolk
10-23-2012, 14:46
I'm floored that Kalifornia is number three on the list.

wjv
10-23-2012, 15:13
They're really really really really really automatic. . . . .

CourtCop
10-23-2012, 15:18
I'm floored that Kalifornia is number three on the list.

I would assume most of the machine guns in California are owned movie prop masters and technical consultants.

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DairyFresh
10-23-2012, 15:27
Now somebody just needs to reform "Lee's army of northern Virgina" and march on the capitol

Lee-online
10-23-2012, 15:45
So those number include machine guns owned by police depts? If so, that skews the real numbers because those post 86 can not be owned by us mere civilians.

Gallium
10-23-2012, 15:49
I'm floored that Kalifornia is number three on the list.


Population:

Virginia 8.1M+
California 37.7M+

What are CA's Class III laws like?

Glock20 10mm
10-23-2012, 16:04
Population:

Virginia 8.1M+
California 37.7M+

What are CA's Class III laws like?

To be honest I would be surprised if private citizens are allowed to own a class III weapon. I would venture to say it's the po-po that have them.

http://www.ehow.com/how_6767042_class-iii-firearm-license-california.html

Glock20 10mm
10-23-2012, 16:05
http://www.shootersdepot.com/legalities.html

concretefuzzynuts
10-23-2012, 16:43
They have them at every gun show here in Va. And, yes people buy them. Our gun shows here are awesome!

GWG19
10-23-2012, 17:19
They have them at every gun show here in Va. And, yes people buy them. Our gun shows here are awesome!

So are you saying people walk in and buy a Class 3 weapon and walk out with it?
Or....
Are you saying people go in buy the Class 3 weapon, wait the 6 to 9 months for the Tax Stamp to come back.

concretefuzzynuts
10-23-2012, 17:37
So are you saying people walk in and buy a Class 3 weapon and walk out with it?
Or....
Are you saying people go in buy the Class 3 weapon, wait the 6 to 9 months for the Tax Stamp to come back.

I'm saying if you want to buy a full auto weapon here, go thru the legal steps of a fee and wait time you can own a full auto.

I've been to gun shows in other states that don't offer such. Ours are bountiful of suppressors, autos and "collectables". All available with state and federal law approval.

ray9898
10-23-2012, 18:01
So those number include machine guns owned by police depts? If so, that skews the real numbers because those post 86 can not be owned by us mere civilians.

Only privately owned fully auto weapons are registered with the ATF by the tax stamp process, a government agency does not need to register a weapon with another government agency.

janice6
10-23-2012, 18:04
God cannot help you get a MG in my state. (Home of Wellstone)

Lee-online
10-23-2012, 19:27
Only privately owned fully auto weapons are registered with the ATF by the tax stamp process, a government agency does not need to register a weapon with another government agency.

So a class 3 dealer gets in a full auto to show to the local LEO. Doesnt he transfer it on a form 3. Wouldnt these form 3's be included in the "registered" weapons. Likewise, wouldnt there be paperwork when a government agency buys them. Some kind of paperwork trail to show who owns them. (unless they go to the Mexican cartel)
I am just trying figure out the numbers in this article. CA doesnt allow NFA and this article shows them having a huge amount, They have to be counting all the state government owned ones.

Lee-online
10-23-2012, 19:33
A quick look at the atf site and a government agency transfers them on a form 5.

I bet all transfers are counted in their stats.

Scary that CA has so many full autos but they are probably in the governments hands.

Cole125
10-23-2012, 21:18
I'm floored that Kalifornia is number three on the list.

Me too. I was under the impression that NFA Class 3 items were a big no-no in California.

wprebeck
10-23-2012, 22:58
Only privately owned fully auto weapons are registered with the ATF by the tax stamp process, a government agency does not need to register a weapon with another government agency.

Everytime we use a flashbang, I have to fax the BATFE and tell them....pretty sure they have a list of all the stuff we have.

Gallium
10-24-2012, 03:35
Everytime we use a flashbang, I have to fax the BATFE and tell them....pretty sure they have a list of all the stuff we have.


To the worst of my knowledge flashbangs are classified as destructive devices which is a beast of a slightly different nature.

ray9898
10-24-2012, 06:44
Everytime we use a flashbang, I have to fax the BATFE and tell them....pretty sure they have a list of all the stuff we have.

I never said they didn't. I am sure they have a list of where every auto weapon produced each year goes to ensure none are sold to restricted persons. I said our weapons are not registered using the tax stamp process as the pre '86 weapons are.

wprebeck
10-24-2012, 06:54
To the worst of my knowledge flashbangs are classified as destructive devices which is a beast of a slightly different nature.

Yeah, they are DD's, but still fall under NFA. We've also got a couple of SBR/SBS thingies (that's the technical term) laying around that I'm responsible for as the armorer. But, mainly, I've got a decent amount of bangs and stingball grenades.

Ray - I took your statement to mean that we didn't need to register anything with BATFE. No, we're exempt from the NFA as an agency, but all the items that fall under the NFA are on a list at BATFE. When one is expended, I have to let them know, so they take it off the registry. Since my agency is too cheap to use real bangs for anything, I don't contact them all that much.

ray9898
10-24-2012, 07:19
So a class 3 dealer gets in a full auto to show to the local LEO. Doesnt he transfer it on a form 3. Wouldnt these form 3's be included in the "registered" weapons. Likewise, wouldnt there be paperwork when a government agency buys them. Some kind of paperwork trail to show who owns them. (unless they go to the Mexican cartel)
I am just trying figure out the numbers in this article. CA doesnt allow NFA and this article shows them having a huge amount, They have to be counting all the state government owned ones.

The department owns the guns carried by the LEO just as the military owns what is issued to a soldier. Same as you, the local LEO cannot just go down to the gun store and buy a full auto weapon.

Also, full auto was not always as hard to get in CA as it is now because of the federal regulations in '86 and their state AWB push. Owners prior to that were grandfathered in and there still is a legal process on the books to obtain a state permit although I have not heard of any being issued. 28k out of 37 million people is really not that many.

Mushinto
10-24-2012, 08:09
Only privately owned fully auto weapons are registered with the ATF by the tax stamp process, a government agency does not need to register a weapon with another government agency.

Incorrect.

My department has many NFA weapons. They are all registered (and must be) with the BATFE on essentially the same type of form that a private person uses. We do not have to pay a transfer tax.

When I did a long overdue inventory of all out firearms, I asked the BATFE to send me a list of ALL NFA weapons they thought we had. Let's just say that their record keeping is under par.

ray9898
10-24-2012, 08:51
Incorrect.

My department has many NFA weapons. They are all registered (and must be) with the BATFE on essentially the same type of form that a private person uses. We do not have to pay a transfer tax.

When I did a long overdue inventory of all out firearms, I asked the BATFE to send me a list of ALL NFA weapons they thought we had. Let's just say that their record keeping is under par.


I guess I used poor terms. I know the BATFE has a list of every NFA weapon my department has when they are purchased. Actually they should have a list of every NFA weapon produced each year and where it ends up since they are so highly restricted. To me 'registering' means the tax stamp process where a gun is purchased by an individual and not simply transferred to government agency.

If they are talking about government owned weapons this is the biggest non-story every. The list of privately owned fully auto weapons has not grown because they only legal ones are the ones registered by 1986. The list is not expanding.

JFrame
10-24-2012, 08:54
Virginia: Most number of legally owned machine guns in US

Dang -- I wish I was one of those owners...

But then again, I'm not sure I would want the expense of feeding it...


.

series1811
10-24-2012, 09:54
Only privately owned fully auto weapons are registered with the ATF by the tax stamp process, a government agency does not need to register a weapon with another government agency.

Actually, they do have to register them, they just don't have to pay any tax.



Tax exemptions


Law enforcement, states, and local governments are totally exempt from the making and transfer (either to or from) taxes, but must comply with the registration requirements. While the NFA only specifically provides that there is no transfer tax due when the US government is the transferee, (26 USC sec. 5852(a)), or a state governmental entity (26 USC sec. 5853(a)), ATF has made up an exemption from the transfer tax where any US or state governmental entity is the transferor, see ATF Chief Counsel Opinion numbers 20023 and 20400. Abuse of that exemption, as in transferring guns through governmental entities so as to avoid transfer taxes, has been prosecuted. See U.S. v. Fleming, 19 F.3d 1325 (10th Cir. 1994).


Federal government agencies, the military, and National Guard need not comply with the registration or tax requirements, and generally speaking NFA Branch removes weapons from the Registry once they are transferred to the federal government.


From ATF's web site.

Mushinto
10-24-2012, 10:01
...

We are on the same page.

And, speaking of pages, when my PD received 65 Vietnam era M16s, I called BATFE to ask if they needed a separate form on each weapon. They said I could just attach a list of serial numbers.

Sometimes, dealing with an agency that makes up the rules as they go along is a good thing.

PVolk
10-25-2012, 08:48
The list of privately owned fully auto weapons has not grown because they only legal ones are the ones registered by 1986. The list is not expanding.
I would have assumed it would have been growing along side the rate of Class 3 dealers. Being a class 3 also allows for manufacturing, right? Which means semi-automatic guns can legally be converted to full auto so long as they aren't sold. And just about anything can be converted inexpensivily and with ease these days.

series1811
10-25-2012, 09:30
I would have assumed it would have been growing along side the rate of Class 3 dealers. Being a class 3 also allows for manufacturing, right? Which means semi-automatic guns can legally be converted to full auto so long as they aren't sold. And just about anything can be converted inexpensivily and with ease these days.

I know everybody has a story like this, but one of the gun shop owners in a town near me, registered 200 AR sears, just before the 1986 ban on any more registrations. He just transfers a few a year, as he needs money.

I kick myself every time I think about how easy it would have been to do that.

G29Reload
10-25-2012, 11:02
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/more-than-30000-registered-machine-guns-in-virginia-highest-total-in-nation/2012/10/22/3b0a3ea6-1c17-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html?hpid=z4

ROANOKE, Va. — Virginia leads the nation in the number of legally owned machine guns

Yea! We WIN!!

What do we get? Besides anything we want. :steamed:

:rofl:

heliguy
10-25-2012, 14:23
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/more-than-30000-registered-machine-guns-in-virginia-highest-total-in-nation/2012/10/22/3b0a3ea6-1c17-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html?hpid=z4

ROANOKE, Va. — Virginia leads the nation in the number of legally owned machine guns that are fully automatic, according to federal figures.

There were 30,220 registered fully automatic machine guns in Virginia as of March. Florida had the second-highest total with 29,128, followed by California with 28,774. Nationally, there were nearly 500,000 registered machine guns, according to an annual report from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

“Machine guns actually are a really good example of why strong gun laws work,” said Daniel Vice, senior attorney with the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

More story available on the link above.

Not true.. Texas leads the list of all things gun related.

KalashniKEV
10-25-2012, 15:19
The full stats...

National Firearms Act Registered Weapons (March 2012)

In the USA
Total Title 2 = 3,184,804
Any Other Weapon (AOW) = 54,649
Destructive Device (DD) = 2,064,091
Machine Gun (MG) = 488,065
Noise Suppressor (NS) = 360,534
Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) = 93,486
Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) = 124,079

Top five states with AOW
1. TX = 6,169
2. CA = 3,698
3. FL = 3,113
4. MN = 2,633
5. VA = 2,514

Top five states with DD
1. CA = 212,800
2. VA = 161,841
3. TX = 159,805
4. PA = 148,700
5. WY = 102,723

Top five states with MG
1. VA = 30,220
2. FL = 29,128
3. CA = 28,774
4. TX = 28,690
5. IL = 24,651

Top five states with NS
1. TX = 47,712
2. GA = 29,259
3. FL = 28,312
4. IN = 16,735
5. AZ = 15,860

Top five states with SBR
1. TX = 9,271
2. FL = 7,432
3. VA = 6,720
4. CA = 5,492
5. PA = 3,853

Top five states with SBS
1. PA = 12,323
2. CA = 12,166
3. GA = 9,422
4. IN = 8,581
5. NY = 7,342

Top five states with most Title 2
1. CA = 268,479
2. TX = 258,204
3. VA =223,303
4. FL = 175,528
5. IL = 112,931

Top five states with the most FFL/SOT in FY2011
1. TX = 477
2. FL = 379
3. AZ = 275
4. PA = 198
5. OH = 186

Top five states with the most FFL in FY2011
1. TX = 8,912
2. CA = 7,535
3. FL = 6,374
4. MO = 5,990
5. PA = 5,649

Batesmotel
10-25-2012, 16:24
The full stats...

National Firearms Act Registered Weapons (March 2012)

In the USA
Total Title 2 = 3,184,804
Any Other Weapon (AOW) = 54,649
Destructive Device (DD) = 2,064,091
Machine Gun (MG) = 488,065
Noise Suppressor (NS) = 360,534
Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) = 93,486
Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) = 124,079

Top five states with AOW
1. TX = 6,169
2. CA = 3,698
3. FL = 3,113
4. MN = 2,633
5. VA = 2,514

Top five states with DD
1. CA = 212,800
2. VA = 161,841
3. TX = 159,805
4. PA = 148,700
5. WY = 102,723

Top five states with MG
1. VA = 30,220
2. FL = 29,128
3. CA = 28,774
4. TX = 28,690
5. IL = 24,651

Top five states with NS
1. TX = 47,712
2. GA = 29,259
3. FL = 28,312
4. IN = 16,735
5. AZ = 15,860

Top five states with SBR
1. TX = 9,271
2. FL = 7,432
3. VA = 6,720
4. CA = 5,492
5. PA = 3,853

Top five states with SBS
1. PA = 12,323
2. CA = 12,166
3. GA = 9,422
4. IN = 8,581
5. NY = 7,342

Top five states with most Title 2
1. CA = 268,479
2. TX = 258,204
3. VA =223,303
4. FL = 175,528
5. IL = 112,931

Top five states with the most FFL/SOT in FY2011
1. TX = 477
2. FL = 379
3. AZ = 275
4. PA = 198
5. OH = 186

Top five states with the most FFL in FY2011
1. TX = 8,912
2. CA = 7,535
3. FL = 6,374
4. MO = 5,990
5. PA = 5,649

I would love to see that list on a per-capita adjusted basis.

series1811
10-26-2012, 07:31
If I recall correctly, there is one individual responsible for the Florida numbers being so high. He is the single largest holder of NFA registered weapons.

uptomyneck
10-26-2012, 09:32
If I recall correctly, there is one individual responsible for the Florida numbers being so high. He is the single largest holder of NFA registered weapons.

Saint Ruben?

There are only about 600-700 transferable machine guns for sale here in the US on any given day. The prices are going up.

I only own .000063 of the transferable MGs:crying:

I wonder if Romney will tell the ATF to open up the registry?

KalashniKEV
10-26-2012, 10:07
Saint Ruben?

Reuben Mendiola. Reed Knight too. There are a lot of large collections in FL, just as I'm sure there are in VA.


I wonder if Romney will tell the ATF to open up the registry?

As soon as Romney finds out what the registry is, I'm sure he'll drop an EO to ban all transfers... after renewing the Clinton Era Assault Weapons ban and making CCW permits into a $5,000/yr annual fee.

He is a crazy ban-happy psychopath from a state I won't live in.

series1811
10-26-2012, 10:31
Saint Ruben?

There are only about 600-700 transferable machine guns for sale here in the US on any given day. The prices are going up.

I only own .000063 of the transferable MGs:crying:

I wonder if Romney will tell the ATF to open up the registry?

I can't remember his name. He owns a large chain of stores in Florida and lives on the west coast.

Mushinto
10-26-2012, 12:09
... I wonder if Romney will tell the ATF to open up the registry?

Unlike Obama, Romney will actuall follow the constitution and not make or unmake his own laws. *

The '86 ban is law and only Congress w/ POTOS signature can overturn it.

* ETA, I hope.