Do people break the law? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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G23Gen4TX
10-24-2012, 22:52
I know they do. But following an argument with a friend, I was wondering what you guys think?

I was claiming that most gun owners are rather responsible and follow the law. Specifically watching out to not break NFA laws such as SBR registration (attaching a stock to a pistol for instance) and machine gun laws (owning illegal machine guns or converting weapons to fire at full auto illegally).

He claimed that a lot of people are probably doing it. I said that for most gun owners who are aware of the law and know the cost in terms of punishment it is simply not worth it.

So what do you think? Did you get to see people wit illegal SBRs and machine guns?

Angry Fist
10-24-2012, 22:56
Is a scope ring on a Glock rail an illegal AOW? I have seen this. As well as mounting a MAC 10 under a shotgun (SBR).

HandyMan Hugh
10-24-2012, 23:10
As a general rule gun owners (the legal ones) are the most law abiding people on the planet. It's just the way we are.
We respect and follow the law, and fear the consequences of breaking it.

G23Gen4TX
10-25-2012, 00:32
Is a scope ring on a Glock rail an illegal AOW? I have seen this. As well as mounting a MAC 10 under a shotgun (SBR).

What's the purpose of the scope ring? To hold the gun with the non shooting hand? If that is the case then it is probably illegal.

As for the Mac10 and shotgun combo. Yes, sounds like an SBR.

More stories?

holesinpaper
10-25-2012, 01:16
Everyone breaks some law, sometime. That's nearly the whole point of the system.

Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent: Harvey Silverglate: 9781594035227: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4187Sp-Cb6L.@@AMEPARAM@@4187Sp-Cb6L

droidfire
10-25-2012, 07:54
I know they do.

Prisons are full of innocent people that disagree with your answer to the thread title.

Bren
10-25-2012, 08:45
Prisons are full of innocent people that disagree with your answer to the thread title.

There are some innocent people in prison, I have no doubt. That doesn't make everyone innocent, which would have to be the case for you to be right and G23Gen4TX to be wrong.

As for firearm offenses - gun owners who bought them legally to begin with are, statistically, less likely to commit crimes than the populatuion at large. On the other hand, many commit crimes without even realizing it. Angry Fist gave some good examples. The country is full of people who give or sell guns to residents of other states, or buy guns from them, without knowing it's a felony. Right on this forum, we have numerous people who use illegal drugs and possess firearms and ammunition and even lie on the 4473 to buy more (multiple felonies). That kidn of stuff is fairly harmless, but probably common.

Committing crimes with NFA weapons? Very, very rare, as ATF can tell you.


BTW, the book Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent, is actually about prosecuting people who really did commit felonies. It seems to be based on the assumption that the laws are wrong, not that the "innocent" didn't break them.

samuse
10-25-2012, 08:52
Who cares about the law?

Do what what you gotta do live a good life and stay outta jail.

It's that simple.

Bren
10-25-2012, 08:55
Who cares about the law?

Defendants

Random
10-25-2012, 09:12
Everyone breaks some law, sometime. That's nearly the whole point of the system.

Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent: Harvey Silverglate: 9781594035227: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229)

Man I feel like a nerd. I read this post and looked at the bottom for the 'like" button.

droidfire
10-25-2012, 09:18
There are some innocent people in prison, I have no doubt. That doesn't make everyone innocent, which would have to be the case for you to be right and G23Gen4TX to be wrong.

I blame the lifeless text for stealing the humor out of my reply and conveying it as a serious statement.

I suppose I could have put more effort into the delivery, but if we were face to face for me to say that it wouldn't have been as ambiguous as it was.

So, the blame is with the medium of delivery, and I consider myself absolved from the extra effort required to click on one of the animated smilies over there ->

I'll sleep well when next I do.

Altaris
10-25-2012, 09:27
I have never broken a single law of any kind in my entire life

CanMan
10-25-2012, 09:37
As a general rule gun owners (the legal ones) are the most law abiding people on the planet. It's just the way we are.


OP, I'd be very wary of that particular friend. Being an NFA owner by proxy would be, well, like being a csucker by proxy...both would suck!

HarlDane
10-25-2012, 09:50
I would guess that the laws most commonly broken (intentionally and unintentionally) by otherwise law abiding gun owners would those that relate to the transferring of firearms.

There is a huge underground gray market for unregistered handguns here in CA. As long the gun pre-dates the registration law and both parties were old enough to purchase the firearm at the time the registration laws went into effect it's pretty easy to get away with. I'm too young and wouldn't be willing to take the risk even if I was old enough, but it's pretty common and easy to do.

larry_minn
10-25-2012, 09:59
As a class my understanding is gun owners (esp those who get CCWP are very law abiding. Being able to get permit shows that they have not (ok been caught) committing any serious (and many non- serious crimes) during their life.
Thing is IF you commit a criminal act (and keep doing it) you WILL get caught. (heck even folks in politics sometimes get caught) :0
Do I break laws? Yep. Its almost impossible to live/work/play/etc without breaking a law somewhere. For fun read some of the stupid laws that are on books.
I have met more then one gun owner who wants to show me "new toy I built" They took legal parts and put together a illegal firearm. It was not any more "deadly" it actually was less. I told them, found proof later and they changed it.
One guy was thrilled he found a "future slug" barrel for his shotgun from a damaged long barrel a friend of his had. So he cut it off at 17" (just to be safe) :(
I was just looking a reciprocity other day. One site says "yes to these states" and was updated Sept 12 2012. The other says "NO" to half those states and is Oct. 2012.
So I made a few phone calls. Not only do they not know, they don't know who/where to find out. (Government employees who work in this area)

btr
10-25-2012, 10:10
Probably most gun owners have committed at least a few federal felonies without knowing it. Some have certainly commited hundreds of them without knowing it.

Thrown an unloaded gun behind the seat of your car/truck and driven through town? Probably drove within 1000 feet of a school. Federal felony without a pistol permit.

Used your concealed carry permit to carry a pistol out of your state, through states that recognize your permit? Didn't drive w/in 1000 feet of school at any point did you? Federal felony.

Put a high cap mag or bayonet on an SKS? Hope you added a bunch of USA made parts to make sure it is 922 compliant. Federal felony.

Give rifle as a gift to a relative who lives in another state? Hope if you went through an FFL. If not, federal felony.

Chesafreak
10-25-2012, 10:30
He claimed that a lot of people are probably doing it.

What facts or sources is he using to support his claim? I can claim that some people are probably snorting cane sugar but that doesn't prove its true... or false.

Spiffums
10-25-2012, 10:36
I plead the 5th...............but I wanted to post in this thread.

Al Czervik
10-25-2012, 11:18
I may have, at one time or another, exceeded the posted speed limit.











:supergrin:

MARKDANIEL
10-25-2012, 11:33
Sometimes its impossible not to break the law. We have several inspections at work and we had 3 inspections by 2 inspectors in a year. no matter how we stored some chemicals we were breaking the law according to 1 of the inspectors if we stored it like #1 wanted us to we were breaking the law according to #2 and vice versa.

AlexHassin
10-25-2012, 11:36
i do not recall at any point breaking the law

Adjuster
10-25-2012, 11:39
In your example of firearms laws. I grew up in West Virginia. It was very common and almost expected especially the more rural areas for you to have a cut down/sawed off shotgun. Not even a second thought was given to the law issue. If you cracked a stock you cut it down and sawed it off. If you were given an old beater gun from your grandpa you bird handled the stock and sawed off the barrel. Thats just the way it was. In my time of growing up there no one was interested in full auto but if they had been interested and if it was available and you lived in the rural country again no one would give the law a second thought to go out in the field or woods and cut loose full auto.


/

Batesmotel
10-25-2012, 11:40
Everyone breaks laws. There are too many laws, many in conflict, not to.

In the 50s there was a short lived TV game show where a player had to go a week without breaking a law. No one won. One guy didn't make it 5 minutes. As he left the studio he stopped to buy a pack of cigarets. When he opened it he neglected to fully destroy the tax stamp. There is a federal law that says you must do that.

If you own a house with a garage and a lawnmower with a gas can I can almost guarantee you that you are breaking several laws on storing gasoline. We owned gas stations and had a book on laws about storing, using, selling and transporting gas. There are so many conflicting federal, state and local laws about gas that is is impossible to comply.

Cali-Glock
10-25-2012, 11:41
I guarantee that everyone reading this thread violate the law on a regular basis.

Frankly it is a huge pain trying to nominally comply with the obvious stuff.

M&P15T
10-25-2012, 11:43
I fought the law, and the...law won.

Mushinto
10-25-2012, 11:44
Gun laws are easy to break because many are either unknown or confusing to the average iltelligent citizen. Some of the most common federal felonies I have seen are:

-- Attaching a forward grip to an AR pistol
-- Hiding a derringer that can fire while in a wallet
-- Attaching a bayonet, folding stock or flash hider to a post ban weapon under section 922

Cali-Glock
10-25-2012, 11:44
Everyone breaks laws. There are too many laws, many in conflict, not to.

In the 50s there was a short lived TV game show where a player had to go a week without breaking a law. No one won. One guy didn't make it 5 minutes. As he left the studio he stopped to buy a pack of cigarets. When he opened it he neglected to fully destroy the tax stamp. There is a federal law that says you must do that.

If you own a house with a garage and a lawnmower with a gas can I can almost guarantee you that you are breaking several laws on storing gasoline. We owned gas stations and had a book on laws about storing, using, selling and transporting gas. There are so many conflicting federal, state and local laws about gas that is is impossible to comply.

Gas can laws are wonderful (not) - virtually everyone violates them - especially in the workplace - and the consequences can be very serrious!

holesinpaper
10-25-2012, 12:16
i do not recall at any point breaking the law

You're a politician, right?

:whistling:

Leigh
10-25-2012, 12:30
[QUOTE=Mushinto;19555072]
-- Hiding a derringer that can fire while in a wallet

Once marketed and sold by Galco (and possibly others).
Still legal with ATF stamp but not worth the hassle to hide your Beretta .25 auto or Seecamp.

Al Czervik
10-25-2012, 13:45
-- Attaching a bayonet, folding stock or flash hider to a post ban weapon under section 922

922 is verbose and makes my head hurt. Is there a context you are referring to regarding present day?

holesinpaper
10-25-2012, 14:26
922 is verbose and makes my head hurt. Is there a context you are referring to regarding present day?

Yes: many people violate 922r because it's verbose and makes their head hurt. :whistling:

Angry Fist
10-25-2012, 17:23
Yes: many people violate 922r because it's verbose and makes their head hurt. :whistling:
Some just don't get the parts count right. A frien had a factory Saiga 12, and wondered why I wouldn't sell him a 12 round mag. He was clueless to the fact that I was covering his ass.

boomhower
10-25-2012, 22:36
Hit the back woods of a lot of states and you are going to find a lot of NFA laws broken. Mainly SBR's and SBS's, not so much full auto stuff as that takes a little more know how than a saw.