Occasional failure to cock on speed reload [Archive] - Glock Talk

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diversions
10-25-2012, 03:31
Hello folks--

I've got a stock G19 (3rd Gen) that I use for EDC. While practicing speed reloads (using snapcaps), I've noticed something strange. Let me walk you through it.

1. I set it up with an empty mag, and pull back the slide to slidelock to simulate running dry. I proceed with the reload;

2. Push the mag release, the emtpy mag drops down, pull a fresh mag (loaded with 2-3 snap caps) and push it into the magwell with my palm.

3. My left hand goes over the top and powerstrokes the slide to load a snapcap into the chamber and pre-cock the action.

Now most of the time this works as intended. However about one try in fifty, I get the following conditions going on:

a. A snapcap is successfully loaded in the chamber.
b. The trigger moves forward as if it is precocked.
c. Upon pulling the trigger, you get a dull thunk of plastic on plastic.
d. After much observation (it happens only occasionally), it is as if the trigger is moved forward but somehow the trigger bar doesn't quite catch the striker fully.

You can recreate the condition, by simply pulling the trigger forward (towards the muzzle) when the gun isn't cycled. Basically, it's only the trigger safety which is keeping it forward.

I'm curious if this has happened to anyone else.

I'm worried that it could be partially catching the striker enough to move the trigger forward, but at some point during the powerstroke, the striker slips off the trigger bar.

At the best case, I'm whacking my firing pin against the firing pin safety. The more worrisome possibility is that if I had a live cartridge in there, it would have gone off right as the powerstroke is being done.

Any thoughts?

*D
Philippine Glock User

vafish
10-25-2012, 04:47
What does it do with live ammo?

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Bren
10-25-2012, 04:49
c. Upon pulling the trigger, you get a dull thunk of plastic on plastic.

If the striker isn't hitting the snap cap, what makes a "thunk"? Maybe you just have a snap cap the feels different than the rest.

Topsider
10-25-2012, 04:49
Dunno. Are you riding the slide? Try using the slide release instead. It's faster, too, if you're really interested in speed.

Of course, it could be a problem with the snap caps.

diversions
10-25-2012, 05:16
@varfish: Honestly, a part of me is terrified of finding out. :) I'll try tomorrow to see if I can make it happen again with live ammo.

@Bren: The thunk is the sound that the trigger makes snapping back after you've pushed the safety enough to let the spring do it's thing. You can replicate it by pulling on the trigger towards the muzzle until the safety engages. Now pull the trigger. That's the sound I get.

@Topsider: I have small hands. I can probably do it with an extended slide release. But I've found that I get better overall results by not breaking my right-hand grip. So I push the mag release with my left thumb as it moves toward my mags, and I powerstroke to put a chamber in. My right hand never changes its grip. So my succeeding shots are spot on; even if I'm a little slower.

Don't tell me I'm the most unique guy in the world. Of the millions of Glocks out there, I'm the only one who gets this sort of thing? :D

Arc Angel
10-25-2012, 07:39
:) Yeah, I've got a few thoughts. (But only a few!) ;)

I'm not sure I like your use of the term, 'power stroke'. I like the fact that you're going H.O.T. (Hand Over Top) when you release the slide; I do not like the hard, heavy, 'slide snap' your use of the term, 'power stroke' implies.

The correct method is to pull the slide all the way to the rear, and then allow it to go forward under its own power. There should be no, ‘snap’; or whipping of the pistol while doing this. Pull back with your support hand, and push slightly forward with your gun hand. Let the, ‘STIFF PISTOL’ do the rest of the work.

In order for your Glock to reset (You use the term, 'pre-cock' which is, technically, incorrect.) the connector has to move to the left and out of the way in order to allow the TB's, 'sear kick plate' to rise up and catch the front of the striker's extended lug. Occasionally, your Glock doesn't appear to be doing this. There are three most likely causes:

1. You've worked on your Glock's action and have less than the generally recommended 60 to 75% engagement between the sear's kick plate, and striker lug.

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/4300/badglocktriggerjob.jpg

1-A. The edges on your sear kick plate, and striker lug could be slightly rounded.

2. The connector’s bend angle is too tight and won’t allow the trigger bar to rise AND reset. (Hence, you trigger is jumping forward under the force of the slide snapping shut; BUT, your trigger bar hasn't risen.)

2-A. The bend in your existing connector, no matter what brand it is, is off; and the top of the connector (the, ‘tab’) needs to be pushed outward towards the left side of the pistol. (In order to guarantee a more positive connector movement and reset.)

Read, THIS (http://www.ghostinc.zoovy.com/c=lKjrws9Rpn1NaYg5NgqTPUTE2/category/istallationinstructions/) (Section II, Notes: 1 & 2)

3. Are you, by any chance, limp-wristing your, ‘power-stroke’? (In and of itself, this wouldn’t cause your problem; but it could contribute to it.)

You’re correct, by the way, if you were running this drill with a loaded pistol it would, in all probability, FIRE!

You don’t want to be unduly battering the sear (FP) safety. Once you ding up the safety and, ‘pass-through’ grooves on the front of the sear you risk preventing the slide from fully returning to battery.





NOTES: (1) Reliance upon using the slide stop (Which it used to be called.) or, 'slide release' (As it's now called.) is for pistol gamesmen. Yes, it's definitely faster. No, you don't want to attempt this gamesman's technique when you're nervous and there's either sweat or blood on your hands, and your, 'fine motor control' is in the process of shutting down.

Back in the days when we used to do a lot of postal shooting, (and even PPC) I used to really piss a lot of other line shooters off by using combat reloading techniques (a la Cirillo) instead of the usual more conventional methods. I've always fired a pistol way too fast for other postal shooters to consider me as, 'one of the fraternity'. I've, also, always been happy with anything inside the 7 ring rather than having to endure the gruesome monotony of punching out quarter-sized holes in the center of my targets.

When I used to shoot PPC I reloaded my revolvers exactly like Jim Cirillo later appeared on the scene to highly recommend; and, once in awhile, the guy on my support side would go, 'nutz' and accuse me of sweeping him with my muzzle. (I wasn't; but, when you're moving fast, it can look that way.)

(2) I have never once in my life practiced to win anybody's gun game. I practice to win gunfights; and that's all I've ever cared about. If you're lucky enough to see it coming, there's no conscious thought in a gunfight; your subconscious mind and your ingrained habit patterns take over; and you do what you have to do in order to take the target out and stay alive.

Me? I wouldn't waste ammunition using the slide stop in order to release a semiautomatic slide. It's always, 'H.O.T.' Whether I'm awake, or asleep it's always Hand-Over-Top. The last time I felt the need to draw on a man I didn't even know I had a gun in my hand. When the incident was over I looked down to see that I was holding a fully charged and pointed pistol. That kind of speed, that kind of unerring movement, can only come from many hour's practice while using a pistol properly - NOT to win gun games, but to win gunfights.

Gallium
10-25-2012, 07:57
What work has been done on the gun?

diversions
10-25-2012, 08:54
I'm not sure I like your use of the term, 'power stroke'. I like the fact that you're going H.O.T. (Hand Over Top) when you release the slide; I do not like the hard, heavy, 'slide snap' your use of the term, 'power stroke' implies.


A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. *grins*

Schooling in proper terminology aside, your entire response is very much appreciated, sir.


The correct method is to pull the slide all the way to the rear, and then allow it to go forward under its own power. There should be no, ‘snap’; or whipping of the pistol while doing this. Pull back with your support hand, and push slightly forward with your gun hand. Let the, ‘STIFF PISTOL’ do the rest of the work.

Understood. It seems to happen when I'm trying to go as fast as I can. So your suspicion that one or more of these errors were occurring is probably correct. I guess I'll have to slow down and pay more attention to the actual mechanics of my hands during this maneuver.

In order for your Glock to reset (You use the term, 'pre-cock' which is, technically, incorrect.) the connector has to move to the left and out of the way in order to allow the TB's, 'sear kick plate' to rise up and catch the front of the striker's extended lug. Occasionally, your Glock doesn't appear to be doing this. There are three most likely causes:

1. You've worked on your Glock's action and have less than the generally recommended 60 to 75% engagement between the sear's kick plate, and striker lug.

1-A. The edges on your sear kick plate, and striker lug could be slightly rounded.

Just a polish of all the points of contact. Otherwise, the gun is stock.

However, I did the polishing with (DRUMROLL) a DREMEL! So yes, another point for the Team Dremel.

Thankfully, this has never happened with live ammo. Whether during reloading or standard fire. And I've fired enough rounds (about a thousand) since the trigger job to be confident that there's something specific to the mechanics of trying to speed reload really fast that is pushing this thing to the point of failure.

I guess I'm buying a new trigger bar and firing pin. And we'll put the Dremel away, this time.

You’re correct, by the way, if you were running this drill with a loaded pistol it would, in all probability, FIRE!

I think that the firing pin safety should prevent this. However, I'll probably end up breaking the firing pin AND/OR the safety itself if I keep inducing this malfunction. But the point is taken... go easy on the reloading until I can replace the FP and the TB.

NOTES: (1) Reliance upon using the slide stop (Which it used to be called.) or, 'slide release' (As it's now called.) is for pistol gamesmen. Yes, it's definitely faster. No, you don't want to attempt this gamesman's technique when you're nervous and there's either sweat or blood on your hands, and your, 'fine motor control' is in the process of shutting down.

A moot point since my hands are too small to reach either the mag release or the slide release reliably. Yes, I'm all for gross motor skills. :)

I find that whatever time I lose using my left hand to operate the mag release and the slide, I more than make up in terms of the accuracy of keeping my solid grip.

Throw in the fact that using my right thumb results in screw ups 1 out of 5 times, I think I'm waaay ahead using what I've gotten used to.

(2) I have never once in my life practiced to win anybody's gun game. I practice to win gunfights; and that's all I've ever cared about. If you're lucky enough to see it coming, there's no conscious thought in a gunfight; your subconscious mind and your ingrained habit patterns take over; and you do what you have to do in order to take the target out and stay alive.

Me? I wouldn't waste ammunition using the slide stop in order to release a semiautomatic slide. It's always, 'H.O.T.' Whether I'm awake, or asleep it's always Hand-Over-Top. The last time I felt the need to draw on a man I didn't even know I had a gun in my hand. When the incident was over I looked down to see that I was holding a fully charged and pointed pistol. That kind of speed, that kind of unerring movement, can only come from many hour's practice while using a pistol properly - NOT to win gun games, but to win gunfights.

Agreed.

Once again, thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

*D
On a small island somewhere in the Philippines

Bren
10-25-2012, 09:04
Just a polish of all the points of contact. Otherwise, the gun is stock.

However, I did the polishing with (DRUMROLL) a DREMEL! So yes, another point for the Team Dremel.


Problem solved - replace the parts you polished and it will be fine. You apparently altered the trigger bar and/or striker lug enough that they fail to engage now. A very common problem for those who do the $.25 trigger job and find out it's a lot more expensive than that.

F106 Fan
10-25-2012, 09:16
Were it me, I would replace ALL of the small parts. Anything that was 'touched' and anything that shows any wear at all, including parts that are in the slide such as the firing pin and firing pin safety.

I would want every single part back to factory new.

Richard

Arc Angel
10-26-2012, 04:50
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. *grins*

Schooling in proper terminology aside, your entire response is very much appreciated, sir.

Hey, ....... at least I mean well. ;)

Understood. It seems to happen when I'm trying to go as fast as I can. So your suspicion that one or more of these errors were occurring is probably correct. I guess I'll have to slow down and pay more attention to the actual mechanics of my hands during this maneuver.

Just a polish of all the points of contact. Otherwise, the gun is stock. However, I did the polishing with (DRUMROLL) a DREMEL! So yes, another point for the Team Dremel.

Yes, It doesn't take much to, 'roll an edge' with a Dremel Tool. Fortuitously, I was taught how to correctly use one of these, 'infernal machines' by a famous gunsmith and his son-in-law (another prominent national gunsmith). I was a relatively young man when they showed me how it's done. I never imagined the skill would, one day, become so useful; but, of course, Glocks hadn't been invented yet; and the home gunsmithing craze Glock pistols has inspired was, still, way off in the future.

Personally, I think that any newbie who uses a Dremel Tool would be very well advised to:

1. Work barehanded so that he can determine heat buildup in the part.

2. Use a light brief touch, and NEVER bear down hard.

3. Stay away from all perpendicular edges. (I think - to some degree, albeit slight - you're experiencing something of this problem.)

4. Learn how to use this tool at relatively low RPM; (1,500 to 2,000) and be smart enough to know, 'When' to stop. You can always go back and do a little more; but, you can never undue too much polishing.

Thankfully, this has never happened with live ammo. Whether during reloading or standard fire. And I've fired enough rounds (about a thousand) since the trigger job to be confident that there's something specific to the mechanics of trying to speed reload really fast that is pushing this thing to the point of failure.

Yes! I think you're, 'whipping your wrist'; and all this is doing is compounding things.

I guess I'm buying a new trigger bar and firing pin. And we'll put the Dremel away, this time.

You can, also, do what many of us, who now know how to use a Dremel Tool have done: Practice on pieces of scrap metal until you develop a, 'feel' for how the tool works.

I think that the firing pin safety should prevent this. However, I'll probably end up breaking the firing pin AND/OR the safety itself if I keep inducing this malfunction. But the point is taken... go easy on the reloading until I can replace the FP and the TB.

The biggest snafu I ran into with my old original #4256 (G-21) trigger bar occurred in and around the sear (FP) safety. Trust me! I well understand, 'Why' the sear safety is not the only safety on a Glock - It CAN be defeated.

I find that whatever time I lose using my left hand to operate the mag release and the slide, I more than make up in terms of the accuracy of keeping my solid grip.

That's a, 'sage remark'; and it's especially appreciated by someone like me who carries 90% of the time in C-3. I'll share two other tactical points with you: The nature of CQB pistol gunfighting is such that time is always working against you. (Which is, 'Why' if you need a, 'Philadelphia lawyer' in order to conclude a, 'draw/no draw' decision you're probably going to lose the gunfight.)

Most people with pistols do, indeed, prefer to engage and begin shooting at and inside 7 1/2 yards. If it's a gunman's habit to wait to close before relying upon his pistol - well, as far as I'm concerned - he's courting failure. (Have you ever noticed how police officers on these TV dash cams ALWAYS draw first! There's a good reason!)

With a pistol I've trained myself to regularly engage between 10 and 15 yards. This is where a majority of my pistol shooting occurs. I, also, periodically practice at 25 yards, too. Why? Because it's this kind of pistol practice that has taught me to, literally, hit anything at and inside 7 1/2 yards without even looking at my sights.

All I do is line up the muzzle on C.O.M. and, 'Bang!' This technique works particularly well with the H.O.T. method of (what is really) an ultimate form of muzzle presentation! I have previously used the term, 'STIFF PISTOL'. Why? Because: (1) This doesn't encourage misfeeds; and (2) it's very difficult to hit the target, squarely, when you're inadvertently, 'whipping' the muzzle.

Now that I think about it: This might be, 'What' I have against the term, 'power-stroke'. The final part of my own H.O.T. method involves accurately pointing the muzzle at the target. Like you, my primary emphasis isn't on speed; it's on speed AND accuracy, instead. This technique is, also, going to be employed by a gunfighter who will, in all probability, be moving perceptibly sooner than the target is ready to act.

Litigious civil lawyers and milksop liberal politicians may not be happy with this; BUT, it is the very essence, itself, of the successful CQB pistol gunfighting technique that every experienced law enforcement officer uses in order to stay alive.

In my opinion and contrary to all of the incredible, 'gunfighting crap' that Mas Ayoob preaches: It is NOT possible to be Ayoob's ideation of a law abiding civilian gunfighter, AND a continuously living, breathing, human being ALL at the same time. I think Bill Jordan said it best, 'In a (CQB pistol) gunfight there are no second place winners.' ;)

The only modification I have ever made to this CQB survival technique is that I DO apply Cooper's Fourth Rule* to the target. What I do NOT do is, 'wait' to apply it. My apologies for the, 'terminology' lessons. I realize you're well educated; and your English is certainly better than my Tagalog. :supergrin:



* 'Always clearly identify your target AND its background.'

diversions
10-26-2012, 06:34
That's a, 'sage remark'; and it's especially appreciated by someone like me who carries 90% of the time in C-3.

Interesting. I'd figure you for a C-1 type of guy.

I'll share two other tactical points with you: The nature of CQB pistol gunfighting is such that time is always working against you. (Which is, 'Why' if you need a, 'Philadelphia lawyer' in order to conclude a, 'draw/no draw' decision you're probably going to lose the gunfight.)

Most people with pistols do, indeed, prefer to engage and begin shooting at and inside 7 1/2 yards. If it's a gunman's habit to wait to close before relying upon his pistol - well, as far as I'm concerned - he's courting failure. (Have you ever noticed how police officers on these TV dash cams ALWAYS draw first! There's a good reason!)

I'm pleased to inform you that you are preaching to the choir. We have a saying in the CCW community here. Roughly translated, it states that at some point, you're going to have to put down all the US-centric gun magazines and take a long hard look at where you live and work.

While I prefer not to bash my own country in front of foreigners, the simple fact is that we have no laws, only guidelines. Here, the amount of money in your wallet and who you know, has as much to do with the legality of an SD shooting as the laws themselves.

If that's not screwed up enough, I happen to live in a province with one of the highest rates of wrongful death per capita in the country--a figure which is more than twice the national average. And the city (if you can call it that, think of a big town) I live in accounts for half of the murders / homicides in the entire province.

And just for ****s and giggles, consider that I live and work on a 1500 hectare (3700 acres, for the metric-impaired) cattle ranch. Of the seven individuals who preceded me, one was murdered with a machete, one blew up in a roadside IED, and another was kidnapped and beaten. All within the borders of my land.

So yeah. I carry every day. 100% with a round in the chamber. AND I have a Vz. 58 carbine in the truck. :P

Perhaps more importantly, I train.

It's honestly the only thing going for me. Relative to our weak currency / economy, bullets are expensive here. Most people here earn a few dollars a day; few can afford to train.

I tested my own staff (who choose to carry) a few months ago. Bought a box of bullets and put a coconut in front of them at 5 yards. Out of 50 rounds fired, only two hit the coconut. No, I'm not ****ting you.

If my luck holds out, the moron who tries to kill me will be this type of shooter. The guy who killed my great-grandfather got it right. If you can't train with a gun, a machete is a better bet.

As for me, I train with a timer. And I train with the exact same setup I carry every day. As you said, speed AND accuracy.

Anyway, time to end this thread before we break our arms patting ourselves on the back. Or worse, before people start thinking we're in love or something. :rofl:

Here's to the hope that all this training ends up as a fun waste of time. :supergrin:

*D
From the wild wild east

AustinTx
10-26-2012, 11:35
Very good thread, guys. Good info and no one threw any rocks.

Proves it can be done.