i found out the hard way.... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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cowboywannabe
10-26-2012, 03:20
that i turned in to a micro manager.

our captain micro manages the freak out of us, asks questions about a report that you could only answer if you were there doing eveything yourself. so in order to stop from having to pull cruiser cam tapes for the smallest detail i began showing up at the most trivial calls with my patrolmen, stepping in and taking over, selecting and directing.......

i had to step back and look at myself, then ask some of the guys to be honest and tell me if i micro manage, they said "sometimes you do".

ive become what i resent but i have a plan. i will go back to supervising, leading, coaching...et cetera.

when my capatain asks for detail on minor incidents i will ask to read the report hes looking at and regurgitate the information on it, when hes unsatisfied with that i will ensure my O/T is logged and i will burn DVDs of the cruiser cams and rat pack audio and simply give it to him. i will then ask if he wants me to stay on the clock reviewing the minute details.

kinda smart ass, but its the only thing i can come up with right now...its been a tough night.

whatcha think?

indigent
10-26-2012, 03:51
Tell him to get on the road.....

I'm sure your guys are writing decent reports and any questions that arise should be answered in the report..... At some point the "what if's" and "well how come's" have to stop.....

Roadkill_751
10-26-2012, 07:12
Yes, I know a Captain that does this in my agency. :whistling:

So it is so common, it must be taught in Captain school. It also might be a CALEA requirement. :supergrin:

nikerret
10-26-2012, 11:16
We don't have Captains and we don't have this problem. Something to think about.

Morris
10-26-2012, 13:40
Are you in one of those agencies where there as as many "chiefs" as there are "indians"?

Mattz
10-26-2012, 16:51
Sometimes I think it's easy to be a patrol officer and complain about micromanagement from supervisors, when we don't realize the liability and stress placed on the supervisors that tend to cause them to act that way in the first place.

Dragoon44
10-26-2012, 17:02
Sometimes I think it's easy to be a patrol officer and complain about micromanagement from supervisors, when we don't realize the liability and stress placed on the supervisors that tend to cause them to act that way in the first place.

They act that way for two reasons,

1. because they look out for themselves first and foremost.

2. because they don't have the balls to stand up for their people (as to why, refer to #1)

Mattz
10-26-2012, 17:50
They act that way for two reasons,

1. because they look out for themselves first and foremost.

2. because they don't have the balls to stand up for their people (as to why, refer to #1)

I don't disagree with that. But I think it's easy for a patrol officer to critique a position he's never held, without understanding all that comes with it. Sometimes I look at policies and think they're silly, but then place myself in a position of supervision and it tends to make more sense.

lawman800
10-26-2012, 22:21
If you need all those details right then and there, ask the guy who wrote the report, or give the second in command time to get the details for you. Don't expect him to be an encyclopedia or camcorder and know every little piece of information.

I have people that do that to me to the point that I have to do twice or three times the work on everything I present just so I have everything covered and of course, they never ask me when I end up lugging a while pushcart full of files in the meeting.

scottydl
10-27-2012, 07:52
We don't have Captains and we don't have this problem. Something to think about.

Same here, hehe. I'm in an agency where they actually let us officers handle the call, and rarely question us about how it was resolved (unless there's a compelling reason to do so). What a concept!

Are you in one of those agencies where there as as many "chiefs" as there are "indians"?

My old agency was like that. 50/50 ratio on officers and supervisors, small department about 30 sworn. Sometimes on patrol there were only supervisors working! I always asked, "Who is supervising who?!?" Ridiculous.

New agency is about 1 gold badge for every 5-8 silvers, depending on shift. About 130 officers total. Works out extremely well.

OFCJIM40
10-28-2012, 05:53
Micro management is the #1 killer of morale on a PD in my opinion. As long as the group of guys are competent and properly trained, leave them alone. We are big boys that carry guns, have badges, and face life/death, we don't need to be babysat. Patrol is also aware of these policies and their careers are at stake too for screw ups. Also what annoys patrol is bosses that want to act like they have it so hard. Spare me, you took the test, you wanted the stripes and the extra pay and there's no shocker what goes into it. Be a leader, not a manager. If you lead by example then all falls into place. So I say good on you for recognizing what you were doing wrong. Your men will respect you more, work harder for you, and overall the shift will run much smoother.

I would also tell your Captain that you run your shift well and what is he so concerned about. Why does he want every single detail. I would tell him, "my guys got it covered and why are you so worried about the small stuff. When the big call happens I'll keep you in the loop. Let me sweat the small things and let my guys work where they don't feel like children at a daycare center".

ClydeG19
10-28-2012, 12:09
My boss is a big micromanager, but I don't feel I have enough time on to really talk to him about it. I've hinted here and there that I don't need to be babysat, but never really come out and been blunt about it. Don't get me wrong, there are officers on the dept that need closer supervision, but I wish he'd let up on the officers that don't. One of my strengths has always knowing what I don't know and getting advise/direction on it. For the routine stuff, get off my back.

SPDSNYPR
10-28-2012, 13:31
Sometimes I think it's easy to be a patrol officer and complain about micromanagement from supervisors, when we don't realize the liability and stress placed on the supervisors that tend to cause them to act that way in the first place.

Sorry - I'm going to have to throw a bull**** flag here. I can think of plenty of cops that were sued, disciplined, or fired because of their actions at my PD, and most of the agencies around me state. I have yet to hear of one ****ing captain getting ****-canned, sued, or seriously disciplined for the actions of their employees. My LT doesn't get fired when a patrolman crashes a car driving too fast to a call - the officer does.

About the only time a Capt, Lt, or any other "ranking" officer gets in trouble is when they do the same stupid **** that would get the officer in trouble - which they do all on their own after telling us we shouldn't.

So, no. It's not because of their liability and stress of sitting in their office and second-guessing their officers. That's a horse-**** cop out.

blueiron
10-28-2012, 13:51
Sorry - I'm going to have to throw a bull**** flag here. I can think of plenty of cops that were sued, disciplined, or fired because of their actions at my PD, and most of the agencies around me state. I have yet to hear of one ****ing captain getting ****-canned, sued, or seriously disciplined for the actions of their employees. My LT doesn't get fired when a patrolman crashes a car driving too fast to a call - the officer does.

About the only time a Capt, Lt, or any other "ranking" officer gets in trouble is when they do the same stupid **** that would get the officer in trouble - which they do all on their own after telling us we shouldn't.

So, no. It's not because of their liability and stress of sitting in their office and second-guessing their officers. That's a horse-**** cop out.

Agreed.

Any stress that supervisors, managers, and executives feel is likely brought on by not meeting promotion times fast enough, not getting choice seating next to the chief at meetings, and being pwned by their wives when they get home.

OFCJIM40
10-28-2012, 14:11
The stress that most middle managers (Sgt.'s and Lt.'s) feel is do they side more with Admin or their guys. Very few I have seen get this right. A lot will sell outs their own guys for future promotions or other bright shiny future things. A lot of Sgt.'s don't realize you are supposed to be the buffer between your guys and Admin. Almost a mother duck if you will. You should protect your ducklings from outside evil (Admin), but you are allowed to nip them back inline if need be. But if your ducklings are happily waddling around the pond, and not walking towards a sewer grate, a cat or into traffic, leave them the hell alone. (I used a fuzzy image of ducks so that any lobotomized company man could understand. Lol).

DaBigBR
10-28-2012, 16:43
I don't disagree with that. But I think it's easy for a patrol officer to critique a position he's never held, without understanding all that comes with it. Sometimes I look at policies and think they're silly, but then place myself in a position of supervision and it tends to make more sense.

Sorry - I'm going to have to throw a bull**** flag here. I can think of plenty of cops that were sued, disciplined, or fired because of their actions at my PD, and most of the agencies around me state. I have yet to hear of one ****ing captain getting ****-canned, sued, or seriously disciplined for the actions of their employees. My LT doesn't get fired when a patrolman crashes a car driving too fast to a call - the officer does.

About the only time a Capt, Lt, or any other "ranking" officer gets in trouble is when they do the same stupid **** that would get the officer in trouble - which they do all on their own after telling us we shouldn't.

So, no. It's not because of their liability and stress of sitting in their office and second-guessing their officers. That's a horse-**** cop out.

Agreed.

Any stress that supervisors, managers, and executives feel is likely brought on by not meeting promotion times fast enough, not getting choice seating next to the chief at meetings, and being pwned by their wives when they get home.

I personally think Mattz is confusing actual liability with perceived liability on the part of the supervisor, the supervisor's responsibility to shield the department from liability, and the requirements that the department places on supervisors for enforcement of policy, limitation of liability, and documentation.

Supervisors at my department have an absolute **** ton of administrative bull**** on their plates. They are hamstrung by policy and docmentation requirements that, I think, can eventually break down their desire to see hard-charging, proactive policing. They do not receive overtime, and are no better staffed than the line, so they end up working off duty and at home to get the administrative **** done.

It's a department issue, and obviously they put in for the promotion, but the expectations on them are sometimes ridiculous. I'm definitely not at the head of the line championing their cause, but I understand.

Mattz
10-28-2012, 18:17
Easy guys, don't put me on the stake and burn me so quick. I'm just saying we all know this job is about liability, and sometimes more of that is placed on supervisors, just in my opinion.

Look at the incident in Los Angeles here a month or so ago where the officers removed the female from a car and slammed her on the ground, then high fived each other. The captain at that station was reassigned and got bumped down on his pay scale, due to, I believe, handling the situation in house and not submitting it to IA. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Not sure if that's the best example to use, but it's one where a supervisor not involved in an incident ended up getting his dick slapped.

JBaird22
10-28-2012, 19:19
I can see both sides. The stress of being a supervisor comes from above not from below. Even when a line level employee makes a mistake, the stress of handling it comes from above the first line supervisor not from an outside source.

As others have said, the first line supervisors voluntarily take the tests and with that accept the stresses and working conditions. Some, however strive to take care of our people, but just like the patrol officer that learns his sgts requirements, the first line supervisor learns the captain or lieutenants requirements and is forced to conform as well.

AngryBassets
10-28-2012, 22:44
I was promoted to Sgt in 05, and Lt in 2010. Each rank has it perks and drawbacks. Like anything, it's what you make of it.

I've had great/awful bosses....and great/awful subordinates.

vanilla_gorilla
10-29-2012, 03:59
The stress that most middle managers (Sgt.'s and Lt.'s) feel is do they side more with Admin or their guys. Very few I have seen get this right. A lot will sell outs their own guys for future promotions or other bright shiny future things. A lot of Sgt.'s don't realize you are supposed to be the buffer between your guys and Admin. Almost a mother duck if you will. You should protect your ducklings from outside evil (Admin), but you are allowed to nip them back inline if need be. But if your ducklings are happily waddling around the pond, and not walking towards a sewer grate, a cat or into traffic, leave them the hell alone. (I used a fuzzy image of ducks so that any lobotomized company man could understand. Lol).


I have long stated that the very best supervisors (specifically sergeants and lieutenants) are the ones who know they are going to retire from the position they are currently in. They have no reason to kick crap onto their subordinates so they can stand on it to get to the next level.

merlynusn
10-29-2012, 07:28
I personally think Mattz is confusing actual liability with perceived liability on the part of the supervisor, the supervisor's responsibility to shield the department from liability, and the requirements that the department places on supervisors for enforcement of policy, limitation of liability, and documentation.

Supervisors at my department have an absolute **** ton of administrative bull**** on their plates. They are hamstrung by policy and docmentation requirements that, I think, can eventually break down their desire to see hard-charging, proactive policing. They do not receive overtime, and are no better staffed than the line, so they end up working off duty and at home to get the administrative **** done.

It's a department issue, and obviously they put in for the promotion, but the expectations on them are sometimes ridiculous. I'm definitely not at the head of the line championing their cause, but I understand.

SGTs absolutely should be getting overtime. If they aren't, your department is in for a world of hurt when the SGTs get together and sue for back pay.

LT and above should be salary, so yes, no overtime.

DaBigBR
10-29-2012, 11:51
SGTs absolutely should be getting overtime. If they aren't, your department is in for a world of hurt when the SGTs get together and sue for back pay.

LT and above should be salary, so yes, no overtime.

It's been that way going back before I was born. I don't see them pushing for it, nor do I see the department doing it out of the goodness of its collective heart. They (sergeants) are well compensated for their time, but the lack of overtime keeps some good candidates (who make $30k+/year in overtime) from putting in.

The true downside is that some supervisors, when they are working the street, avoid police work except where absolutely necessary because they are not compensated for court time.

scccdoc
10-29-2012, 12:27
that i turned in to a micro manager.

our captain micro manages the freak out of us, asks questions about a report that you could only answer if you were there doing eveything yourself. so in order to stop from having to pull cruiser cam tapes for the smallest detail i began showing up at the most trivial calls with my patrolmen, stepping in and taking over, selecting and directing.......

i had to step back and look at myself, then ask some of the guys to be honest and tell me if i micro manage, they said "sometimes you do".

ive become what i resent but i have a plan. i will go back to supervising, leading, coaching...et cetera.

when my capatain asks for detail on minor incidents i will ask to read the report hes looking at and regurgitate the information on it, when hes unsatisfied with that i will ensure my O/T is logged and i will burn DVDs of the cruiser cams and rat pack audio and simply give it to him. i will then ask if he wants me to stay on the clock reviewing the minute details.

kinda smart ass, but its the only thing i can come up with right now...its been a tough night.

whatcha think?

Why not ask him how he wants you to handle the situations and give him feed back on his suggestions. Bottom line, he's your boss........ DOC

lawman800
10-29-2012, 23:47
It's been that way going back before I was born. I don't see them pushing for it, nor do I see the department doing it out of the goodness of its collective heart. They (sergeants) are well compensated for their time, but the lack of overtime keeps some good candidates (who make $30k+/year in overtime) from putting in.

The true downside is that some supervisors, when they are working the street, avoid police work except where absolutely necessary because they are not compensated for court time.

Sometimes an OT whore will easily clock more than a sergeant. No getting around that if you count seniority and other incentive pay that officers may get which are unavailable to a sergeant.

cowboywannabe
10-30-2012, 02:18
Why not ask him how he wants you to handle the situations and give him feed back on his suggestions. Bottom line, he's your boss........ DOC

if he wants the shift he can have it, otherwise its my shift. youll end up getting killed doing stuff other peoples way in police work.

i follow the law and dept. policy.....ater that its my decision and my methods, not his. you know theres more than one right way to do some things.

id rather go back to being a patrolman than become a puppet sgt.

i'll just do my thing and ensure my o/t is logged for when i have to dig up minute details for him but i will run my shift my way until its no longer my shift.....the chief doesnt have a problem with the way i do things.....i have a lot if latitude but the capt. tries to control things like you should do this this way or that way like he needs to feel important and in charge.....what i call a napoleon complex.

it started recently when i got my degree (he doesnt have one).....not saying hes envious or threatened...but maybe trying to compensate.....:dunno:

merlynusn
10-30-2012, 07:54
It's been that way going back before I was born. I don't see them pushing for it, nor do I see the department doing it out of the goodness of its collective heart. They (sergeants) are well compensated for their time, but the lack of overtime keeps some good candidates (who make $30k+/year in overtime) from putting in.

The true downside is that some supervisors, when they are working the street, avoid police work except where absolutely necessary because they are not compensated for court time.

It was that way here for a very long time. A group got together and sued because the department was violating the FLSA. The department lost big time. SGTs are now hourly employees and the department had to pay backpay for a lot of them.

DaBigBR
10-30-2012, 10:43
Sometimes an OT whore will easily clock more than a sergeant. No getting around that if you count seniority and other incentive pay that officers may get which are unavailable to a sergeant.

The two Sergeants on my watch are relatively newly promoted and each claim to (and I believe) be losing over $20k in the first year in lost overtime. It takes them several years to catch up, and then they're making what they were making several years before, as an officer.

Hunca Munca
11-01-2012, 10:37
it started recently when i got my degree (he doesnt have one).....not saying hes envious or threatened...but maybe trying to compensate.....:dunno:

Hmmm, you are now qualified to do his job?? Perhaps you are now a threat...

cowboywannabe
11-01-2012, 18:49
Hmmm, you are now qualified to do his job?? Perhaps you are now a threat...

na, his moods come and go....im golden one day and crap the next and all that changed was the date on the calender. besides he does his job well so he wont be displaced anytime soon.