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PghJim
10-27-2012, 18:03
Everytime I start talking about the 357 sig and how everyone liked the stopping power of the 357 magnum, A guy posts that the CA CHP likes their 40 S&W over their old 357 magnum.

Well I did some research. The S&W Revolver was the side are for CHP loaded with 38 Specials. However, a few carried 357 magnum ammo. After a terrible incident in 1970, CHP mandated only 38 special 110gr +p+ ammo be used. The thought was that the officers did not know how to handle the 357 mag and made that incident worse than it might have been.

In 1990, CHP switched to S&W pistols and the 40 S&W cartridge. If CHP thought that 40 S&W was more effective than a 38 Special 110gr +p+ I totally believe that. However, they could not be comparing the 357 mag, which had not been used from 1970 to 1990. In an effort for full disclosure, a few CHP officers in northern CA where alowed to carry 357 mag ammo if they qualified with it in the late 1980's. But I understand that was very few officers.

dpadams6
10-27-2012, 18:06
Everytime I start talking about the 357 sig and how everyone liked the stopping power of the 357 magnum, A guy posts that the CA CHP likes their 40 S&W over their old 357 magnum.

Well I did some research. The S&W Revolver was the side are for CHP loaded with 38 Specials. However, a few carried 357 magnum ammo. After a terrible incident in 1970, CHP mandated only 38 special 110gr +p+ ammo be used. The thought was that the officers did not know how to handle the 357 mag and made that incident worse than it might have been.

In 1990, CHP switched to S&W pistols and the 40 S&W cartridge. If CHP thought that 40 S&W was more effective than a 38 Special 110gr +p+ I totally believe that. However, they could not be comparing the 357 mag, which had not been used from 1970 to 1990. In an effort for full disclosure, a few CHP officers in northern CA where alowed to carry 357 mag ammo if they qualified with it in the late 1980's. But I understand that was very few officers.
Agreed. And why I carry and believe the 357sig is the best all around self defense handgun caliber on the planet. I think the hkp2000 and sig 229 in that caliber are particularly sexy. What say you?

CanyonMan
10-27-2012, 18:29
Everytime I start talking about the 357 sig and how everyone liked the stopping power of the 357 magnum, A guy posts that the CA CHP likes their 40 S&W over their old 357 magnum.

Well I did some research. The S&W Revolver was the side are for CHP loaded with 38 Specials. However, a few carried 357 magnum ammo. After a terrible incident in 1970, CHP mandated only 38 special 110gr +p+ ammo be used. The thought was that the officers did not know how to handle the 357 mag and made that incident worse than it might have been.

In 1990, CHP switched to S&W pistols and the 40 S&W cartridge. If CHP thought that 40 S&W was more effective than a 38 Special 110gr +p+ I totally believe that. However, they could not be comparing the 357 mag, which had not been used from 1970 to 1990. In an effort for full disclosure, a few CHP officers in northern CA where alowed to carry 357 mag ammo if they qualified with it in the late 1980's. But I understand that was very few officers.



Just dropping by amigo... I have no idea about all the stuff in your post. I just know from shooting both, and owning both, and reloading for both, and using both, I would and do, prefer the 357 mag round over the 357sig. As I said, This is not some revelational post. I just see no need in the sig. I have had over 4 decades of experience with the 357mag, in 'various media'. I will continue to reload for it in both the 4" Smith and the SP101. I truly think this is one of the best rds, for SD other than the 45acp and 44mag.... IMO.


I am offically gone....:wavey:





Adios,



B safe all.









CanyonMan

cowboy1964
10-27-2012, 18:48
I'll take a 30 ounce Glock 32 with 13+1 of 1350 fps Gold Dots over a 38 ounce 6 shooter any day. I have no problem believing the average officer prefers the .40 over a .357 Magnum revolver.

WiskyT
10-27-2012, 20:16
The Texas DPS is so impressed with their 357Sigs that their SWAT team went with 45ACP.

unit1069
10-27-2012, 21:58
I'll take a 30 ounce Glock 32 with 13+1 of 1350 fps Gold Dots over a 38 ounce 6 shooter any day. I have no problem believing the average officer prefers the .40 over a .357 Magnum revolver.

I'm not a crack shot so my opinion is the same as yours. I believe .357sig is ascendent not because it's as (more or less) effective than .357 Magnum but because the advance in handgun technology has provided approximate power equivalence while doubling the number of rounds in a platform that still weighs less than the revolver.

If I had considerable experience with .357 Magnum and was expert enough to put all rounds where intended under duress maybe I'd opt for that caliber. But I've never been comfortable with a long DA trigger whether in semi-automatic or revolver and I am moving all my pistols to short recess striker-fired DAO.

dkf
10-27-2012, 22:01
I like the .357mag and revolvers but I will not carry one daily for SD. I can get a lot more rounds in a lighter, thinner and more compact platform with a .357sig, 9mm or .40. For hunting or in the woods revolvers are fine for me, preferably .44mag.

unit1069
10-27-2012, 22:06
The Texas DPS is so impressed with their 357Sigs that their SWAT team went with 45ACP.

Yes, but that's only part of the story. The rest of it is ...

The intensive testing process began when the group sought out a large-caliber handgun capable of making fast and accurate follow-up shots. After intensive endurance and environmental testing was concluded, the SIG SAUER 1911 TACOPs pistol was selected by the Texas Ranger SWAT Team. Since then, DPS SOG has authorized officers the option of carrying either the 1911 TACOPs or their duty issued SIG SAUER P226 DAK in .357SIG. http://www.ammoland.com/2012/10/18/sig-sauer-1911-handguns/#axzz2AYyH3UTi

fastbolt
10-27-2012, 22:35
I had a close friend who worked out of different CHP offices from the late 70's into the 2000's. One of his duties was being a weapons (training) officer at some of those field offices.

At various times he carried some different revolvers, chambered in both .38 Spl and .357 Magnum. He carried both calibers, depending on the field office. If the field office stocked Magnum ammunition in their inventory, and a traffic officer could qualify with it, he/she was issued it for duty use.

At the end of his career, when we were comparing some notes as firearms instructors, he did mention that the .40 S&W had been observed within the the agency to have been a better duty cartridge for them ... "better" meaning more effective in shootings ... than both the 110gr +P+ load and the 125gr Magnum load. He was quite specific that he considered the 180gr .40 S&W to be a superior caliber when considered against earlier revolver caliber choices, and that his opinion wasn't an isolated one within the agency. ;)

Now, one of the statements often used to typify the satisfaction of that agency with the .40 over the Magnum revolver load (probably because it was their most "powerful" issued duty load), was made by a lieutenant from their training division, as I recall, although his name escapes me that the moment.

I knew STO's (state traffic officers) starting back in the 9000 badge number range who carried either .38 Spl or .357 Magnum.

FWIW, my friend also mentioned how one field office where he worked used to stock 10mm ammunition (175gr W-W STHP) for some officers that wanted to carry 10mm's as off-duty weapons (and had to use authorized/issued ammunition in their off-duty weapons). First I'd heard of that, and I found it interesting, although when you think about it, the 10mm did enjoy a brief bit of popularity when S&W was making the 1006/1076's (and variants).

Now, I won't use that ONE agency's example, and 22 year history of satisfactory use, of the .40 S&W to imply the .40 is "better" than the .357SIG. That would be fruitless and silly. Waste of time. They're happy with it, and that's all that matters.

As far as the other state agencies using the Sig load and who are pleased with it? Cool. Fine for them. It really only matters that they're happy with it.

Not everything is so black and white, though.

A couple years ago I was attending a class taught by a retired cop (now a PhD who teaches). When one of the questions he fielded led to a discussion of different duty calibers, he happened to relate a conversation he'd had with some state cops working for a large agency in the midwest. They'd been carrying .357SIG for several years, and they apparently told him that while they were generally satisfied with the cartridge, they'd still had some failures-to-stop when armed suspects had been shot by officers upon occasion. Just like sometimes happens with other duty calibers.

Discussions of duty calibers ... and bonded v. non-bonded duty ammunition ... still seems to have the ability to distract people from focusing on things like mindset, training & proper practice (including effectively using their duty holsters while wearing the seasonal uniforms, jackets, car coats, etc).

If you like .357SIG, go for it.

If you like .40 S&W, go for it.

Ditto 9mm or .45 ACP (or 45GAP, for those who feel left out ;) ).

Training, tactics, repeated proper practice, weapon maintenance & mindset. Pick whatever caliber you like ... or use whatever is issued to you.

Trigger Finger
10-27-2012, 23:14
I was in L.A. as a police officer at the time the CHP went with the 40 Auto. I think the Chippies went with the auto because virtually ALL the other law enforcement agencies in SoCal had already gone to a semi auto handgun. LAPD and LASD were both using the Beretta in 9mm and the results of the FBI Miami shooting had come out. The CA Highway Patrol felt they had to keep up with the other agencies at least in Southern California.

The CHP were frequently called to back up agencies throughout the County and perhaps they felt under gunned. That was the impression I got from many Highway Patrol Officers. Many were trained by the division I was in at the time on how to deal with street gangs!

S&W provided a quality handgun with a great price and a new round said by the FBI at the time to be better than a 9mm and provided more rounds then a revolver. And the CHP carried 357 mag revolvers but could only carry 38 Special +P at the time and the penalty in SoCal for them carrying 357s were extreme, from what I have heard!

And the California Highway Patrol did not want a repeat of the Sagus Newhal Shooting.

WiskyT
10-28-2012, 06:36
Yes, but that's only part of the story. The rest of it is ...

Not really, it's the whole story. 357Sig-aid drinkers all mention (ad nauseam) about how the 357Sig is the charged particle beam of handguns. In fact, it wasn't originally developed as an anti-personnel weapon, but was part of the Star Wars missile defense system. The 357Sig is responsible for the fall of the Iron Curtain as the Soviets had nothing that could touch it and they new it could be fired in rapid succession and be capable of taking down multiple warhead threats as they re-entered the atmosphere. As further proof of this, we are constantly reminded that the Texas Rangers use it above all else, this because they know it to be the one stop shot wonder-gun. After all, Chuck Norris is a Texas Ranger, so their endorsement simply can't be ignored.

The funny thing is, when their ESU troops picked a gun, and they could have had any caliber they wanted, they didn't get a 357Sig did they? They didn't pick a light and fast ANYTHING did they? They picked the bane of all light/fast one-stop-shotters, the slow heavy 45. They picked a bullet going 600fps slower than the one that is supposed to be the "best".

That's all I'm pointing out, that if the Texas Rangers are going to be brought up as an argument for the 357Sig, then the whole story needs to be told now that they chose something else.

WiskyT
10-28-2012, 06:41
I had a close friend who worked out of different CHP offices from the late 70's into the 2000's. One of his duties was being a weapons (training) officer at some of those field offices.

At various times he carried some different revolvers, chambered in both .38 Spl and .357 Magnum. He carried both calibers, depending on the field office. If the field office stocked Magnum ammunition in their inventory, and a traffic officer could qualify with it, he/she was issued it for duty use.

At the end of his career, when we were comparing some notes as firearms instructors, he did mention that the .40 S&W had been observed within the the agency to have been a better duty cartridge for them ... "better" meaning more effective in shootings ... than both the 110gr +P+ load and the 125gr Magnum load. He was quite specific that he considered the 180gr .40 S&W to be a superior caliber when considered against earlier revolver caliber choices, and that his opinion wasn't an isolated one within the agency. ;)

Now, one of the statements often used to typify the satisfaction of that agency with the .40 over the Magnum revolver load (probably because it was their most "powerful" issued duty load), was made by a lieutenant from their training division, as I recall, although his name escapes me that the moment.

I knew STO's (state traffic officers) starting back in the 9000 badge number range who carried either .38 Spl or .357 Magnum.

FWIW, my friend also mentioned how one field office where he worked used to stock 10mm ammunition (175gr W-W STHP) for some officers that wanted to carry 10mm's as off-duty weapons (and had to use authorized/issued ammunition in their off-duty weapons). First I'd heard of that, and I found it interesting, although when you think about it, the 10mm did enjoy a brief bit of popularity when S&W was making the 1006/1076's (and variants).

Now, I won't use that ONE agency's example, and 22 year history of satisfactory use, of the .40 S&W to imply the .40 is "better" than the .357SIG. That would be fruitless and silly. Waste of time. They're happy with it, and that's all that matters.

As far as the other state agencies using the Sig load and who are pleased with it? Cool. Fine for them. It really only matters that they're happy with it.

Not everything is so black and white, though.

A couple years ago I was attending a class taught by a retired cop (now a PhD who teaches). When one of the questions he fielded led to a discussion of different duty calibers, he happened to relate a conversation he'd had with some state cops working for a large agency in the midwest. They'd been carrying .357SIG for several years, and they apparently told him that while they were generally satisfied with the cartridge, they'd still had some failures-to-stop when armed suspects had been shot by officers upon occasion. Just like sometimes happens with other duty calibers.

Discussions of duty calibers ... and bonded v. non-bonded duty ammunition ... still seems to have the ability to distract people from focusing on things like mindset, training & proper practice (including effectively using their duty holsters while wearing the seasonal uniforms, jackets, car coats, etc).

If you like .357SIG, go for it.

If you like .40 S&W, go for it.

Ditto 9mm or .45 ACP (or 45GAP, for those who feel left out ;) ).

Training, tactics, repeated proper practice, weapon maintenance & mindset. Pick whatever caliber you like ... or use whatever is issued to you.

I wonder if the CHP troops had any info on the effectiveness of the 1970's semi-jacketed bullets at 1450fps against auto body barriers like glass and quarter panels?

I wonder if the 1990's bullets of stouter construction, heavier weight, and lower velocity might not have been better at punching through a door skin or a windshield?

I used to handload those old school bullets and the seater stem would mush them at one foot per second. I can't imagine them holding up well at 1450fps out of a 6" Roscoe.

Snowman92D
10-28-2012, 07:11
The rank-and-file Texas DPS troopers were, in fact, using the .45 ACP in their issued Sig P-220 service handguns...and had been doing so for a long time...before the agency transitioned to the .357 Sig. The reason for the transition was that the .45 ACP was a very effective cartridge as far as lethality goes...but it was judged by DPS personnel to not be as good a fight-stopper as their .357 magnum revolvers had been. Stopping the fight is the object of the exercise, of course, not just "killing" everyone you shoot.

I know that the range scores of Texas DPS academy recruits went up, across the board, when the agency switched from .45 ACP to .357 Sig caliber pistols. Not sure about the "why" of that, but that's what their range staff told me. My understanding is that a few road-dog troopers opted to keep their Sig 220's, but most elected to switch to the .357 Sig. I know they claim to get better performance on penetrating auto-glass and metal with the .357 Sig over the .45 ACP. (Texas has a highway patrol, you know.)

As far as the DPS SWAT personnel opting to use .45 ACP handguns, I think that you'll find that it's a bit of a joke throughout law enforcement that SWAT teams always think they have to have a different caliber handgun from what the rest of their agency carries. If the rank-and-file carries 9mm's, then the SWAT guys want .40's. If the rank-and-file carries .40's, the SWAT guys want .45's ACP's.

Some administrators go along with it...some don't. I don't care one way or the other, personally. I'm all for allowing guys to carry what they're comfortable with, provided they shoot it well. But I can understand the position of some departments who see no reason for SWAT personnel to need a "different" kind of handgun. When you call SWAT, it usually isn't because you need to have somebody shot with a handgun, nor do the SWAT guys typically opt to use a handgun when they show up.

4949shooter
10-28-2012, 07:58
Our SWAT team carries a different caliber (.45 ACP) as well.

Me? I would like to carry Corbon 135 grain @ 1450 in 10mm, if given the choice. :cool:

ChiefWPD
10-28-2012, 10:09
Our SWAT team carries a different caliber (.45 ACP) as well.

Me? I would like to carry Corbon 135 grain @ 1450 in 10mm, if given the choice. :cool:

The desire for specialized units to equip themselves with a non-standard sidearm is an ongoing problem. The dilemma comes from the fact that when journeyman level officers see that special unit officers carry different handguns/calibers then they are authorized the line officers believe that the other unit’s personnel are equipped with “better” firearms.

It is imperative for police management to resist the pressure from members of these special units to allow them to carry non-standard firearms as to do so is very destructive to department morale.

fastbolt
10-28-2012, 10:31
I wonder if the CHP troops had any info on the effectiveness of the 1970's semi-jacketed bullets at 1450fps against auto body barriers like glass and quarter panels?

I wonder if the 1990's bullets of stouter construction, heavier weight, and lower velocity might not have been better at punching through a door skin or a windshield?




I can't remember offhand when the CHP started doing their own testing for ammunition, but they were well aware of the performance and results of shooting handgun bullets at motor vehicles.

I haven't seen the results of the latest ammunition bid spec for the state ammunition contract, but at least up until now they've apparently never felt the need to include the requirement for some type of "bonded" handgun ammunition. As the largest of the state agencies who chase motor vehicles for a living, you'd think that if they were that all that concerned about performance & "effectiveness" against windshield glass & sheet metal, they'd have been stating it in their bid specs st some point.

I remember discussing this issue with a guy retired from a southwest agency. He said they never went with the trend of changing from their heavy .357 Magnum loads to the lighter weight 125's when it seemed a lot of agencies were doing so. Why? because they'd received satisfactory service from their chosen load (including when motor veh's were involved) and didn't really see a reason to change.

I jumped on the 125gr bandwagon for a while back then. I was buying lots of the Federal 125gr Magnum load, and then the Remington SJHP load. (The Winchester load, with its ball powder, produced too much sand-blasting effect with its muzzle blast, for my taste.)

I finally went back to my previous favorite bullet weight in the Magnum revolvers, which was 140/145gr ... and few years later was told to start carrying the W-W 147gr OSM when we switched to hi-cap 9's. :rofl:

xcrewman
10-28-2012, 10:38
Training, tactics, repeated proper practice, weapon maintenance & mindset. Pick whatever caliber you like ... or use whatever is issued to you.


I had a retired CHP officer Worley mention that incident back in my criminal justice class back 20 years. I f can recall it was their tactics....they were collecting brass and their speed loaders....reffering back to traing....

SCmasterblaster
10-28-2012, 13:33
I'll take a 30 ounce Glock 32 with 13+1 of 1350 fps Gold Dots over a 38 ounce 6 shooter any day. I have no problem believing the average officer prefers the .40 over a .357 Magnum revolver.

That is one powerful testimony. :cool:

Frank V
10-31-2012, 21:06
We went to the G22 or G23 & carried RP 180gr JHP. It was accurate & easy to shoot. I chronographed it at 900 & a little change from the G22. I felt comfortable with it. Just as I retired in '06 we Switched to WW Ranger .40 S&W 180gr.
I became confident with the .40 S&W & can now carry what I choose, guess what the G22 still gets a lot of duty.:cool:
Frank

clarkstoncz
10-31-2012, 21:29
Now Texas troopers can switch to .357 SIG 1911s if they want to.

Really, most SWAT teams operate in houses, and not in rural areas or highways.

The lower penetration .45 ACP is probably better for them IF the MP5s or M4s
don't get used first.

The CHP might have went .357 SIG IF it was around back then like it is now.

They were pretty set on caliber before they even went to handgun makers to submit
guns.

I've shot a S&W 40 cal like they have, and hated it.

Why they have not went GLOCK or M&P is a mystery to me.

cowboy1964
10-31-2012, 22:24
The Texas DPS is so impressed with their 357Sigs that their SWAT team went with 45ACP.

They are authorized for either the .45 or the .357 Sig. It would be interesting to know what the breakdown is. Interesting, but this is really irrelevant.

Tiro Fijo
11-01-2012, 02:39
The rank-and-file Texas DPS troopers were, in fact, using the .45 ACP in their issued Sig P-220 service handguns...and had been doing so for a long time...before the agency transitioned to the .357 Sig. The reason for the transition was that the .45 ACP was a very effective cartridge as far as lethality goes...but it was judged by DPS personnel to not be as good a fight-stopper as their .357 magnum revolvers had been...


We have a winner. :cool:


...I was buying lots of the Federal 125gr Magnum load, and then the Remington SJHP load. (The Winchester load, with its ball powder, produced too much sand-blasting effect with its muzzle blast, for my taste.)...


You can say that again, brother!! Usually, giving the forcing cone a good chamfer job will eliminate a lot of this, but you can't chamfer the forcing cones on the old K Frames hardly at all as they have the cutout at the bottom where they sometimes cracked. My old Model 13 shoots the Fed. 125 Mag. like a laser but you damn near need a welder's mask to shoot 'em!! :whistling:

RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 07:48
Agreed. And why I carry and believe the 357sig is the best all around self defense handgun caliber on the planet. I think the hkp2000 and sig 229 in that caliber are particularly sexy. What say you?

Get real :upeyes:

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 08:41
Get real :upeyes:

Ive carried it at work for about 15 years involving appprox. 12 shootings and have seen it shot thru just about every material you can think from all different angles. And our own in house testing. I have seen firsthand what it does. Id say that's far more factual than any testing you have seen or heard about. Trust me. It works VERY WELL. Even the secret service stated that its the best round they have ever tested. To each their own though. Carry what you feel mostly comfortable with. All the main calibers are good. I just choose the 357sig because of above mentioned and feel very comfortable with my decision.

Bren
11-01-2012, 09:19
Kentucky State Police carried .357 magnum for many years, followed by full-power 10mm for 10+ years and now .40 S&W. They seem to be equally happy with all of them, (as well as with every model of 3rd and 4th gen Glock they have been issued).

Personally, I think .40 S&W is the all-around best handgun cartridge going, if you have to use it for a lot of different shooters and a lot of different situations.

Bren
11-01-2012, 09:19
Ive carried it at work for about 15 years involving appprox. 12 shootings and have seen it shot thru just about every material you can think from all different angles. And our own in house testing. I have seen firsthand what it does. Id say that's far more factual than any testing you have seen or heard about. Trust me. It works VERY WELL. Even the secret service stated that its the best round they have ever tested. To each their own though. Carry what you feel mostly comfortable with. All the main calibers are good. I just choose the 357sig because of above mentioned and feel very comfortable with my decision.

I assume you mean 12 shootings by your department, not by you?

xcaliburelite
11-01-2012, 09:48
I assume you mean 12 shootings by your department, not by you?

Maybe he's Raylan Givens. :D

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RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 09:56
Ive carried it at work for about 15 years involving appprox. 12 shootings and have seen it shot thru just about every material you can think from all different angles. And our own in house testing. I have seen firsthand what it does. Id say that's far more factual than any testing you have seen or heard about. Trust me. It works VERY WELL. Even the secret service stated that its the best round they have ever tested. To each their own though. Carry what you feel mostly comfortable with. All the main calibers are good. I just choose the 357sig because of above mentioned and feel very comfortable with my decision.

Im not saying its not great.. Im just saying the original quote I had commented on said it was the "greatest self defense caliber of all kind"..

Personally I think that connotation belongs to the 10mm.. It can be loaded as soft as jelly... mid level like a hot .40, or nuclear where its going to blow the doors off smaller cased calibers like .40 and or .357 sig.

All that in a reasonably sized, good capacity auto loader, with a wide array of bullet weights to satisfy a host of goals.

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 10:14
I assume you mean 12 shootings by your department, not by you?

Yes. Entire Dept.

Deputydave
11-01-2012, 10:19
Everytime I start talking about the 357 sig and how everyone liked the stopping power of the 357 magnum, A guy posts that the CA CHP likes their 40 S&W over their old 357 magnum.

Well I did some research. The S&W Revolver was the side are for CHP loaded with 38 Specials. However, a few carried 357 magnum ammo. After a terrible incident in 1970, CHP mandated only 38 special 110gr +p+ ammo be used. The thought was that the officers did not know how to handle the 357 mag and made that incident worse than it might have been.

In 1990, CHP switched to S&W pistols and the 40 S&W cartridge. If CHP thought that 40 S&W was more effective than a 38 Special 110gr +p+ I totally believe that. However, they could not be comparing the 357 mag, which had not been used from 1970 to 1990. In an effort for full disclosure, a few CHP officers in northern CA where alowed to carry 357 mag ammo if they qualified with it in the late 1980's. But I understand that was very few officers.

Jim,

Here are some thoughts for consideration; First, the .357 magnum is a fine round. However, it does have a somewhat inflated reputation, no different than the .45 has a somewhat inflated reputation. What I'm saying is that both are revered by some as 'feared man-stoppers'. And yes, they have had a measure of success. However, both have had dismal failures. I've talked to BG's shot multiple times with both, including head shots and they were very much alive. Here is my point on this; the .357 magnum is fine as long as my main three are in place i.e. reliability (not as much of an issue in a revolver), shot placement (to include fast, accurate follow up shots) and adequate penetration. Second consideration, the .357 when using magnum rounds is a stout round. Trust me, the .357 magnum was my first off-duty firearm because I read all the same hype everyone else did back in the day. What they didn't address was accurate follow up shots while under duress. It is one thing to pop of magnum rounds at the range, quite another to do so quickly and accurately under duress when your fine motor skills are no longer working optimally. Many don't consider this, but they should! It is big time important. Again, not to poo-poo the .357 magnum. I still have one. But if it is going to be used as a defensive firearm, a person really needs to consider their abilities under duress with a magnum round. Particularly those that carry in short barrels!

Secondly, the .40 S&W is a fine round. It is more controllable in a semi-auto than a .357 magnum in a revolver since some of the recoil gets taken up in slide action. This is my off-duty carry right now with a 165 PDX1 round. I'd be just as happy with a 180 PDX1 but they weren't available at the time I made the purchase. The .40 and the .357sig have been described as a 'good answer to a question that was never asked'. I agree with this. Neither round was 'needed'. In other words I don't see either as having terminal ballistic results over and above their 9mm/.45ACP counterparts (when based upon ammunition that meets the same basic requirements). They all work great, and they all suck depending upon what happened in the shooting.

In short, any service caliber seems to be pretty comparable to the other service calibers (given equal ammo considerations). That nitty-gritty is in the details i.e. how well the operator controls the weapon under duress as well as factors that are beyond the control of the operator.

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 10:25
Im not saying its not great.. Im just saying the original quote I had commented on said it was the "greatest self defense caliber of all kind"..

Personally I think that connotation belongs to the 10mm.. It can be loaded as soft as jelly... mid level like a hot .40, or nuclear where its going to blow the doors off smaller cased calibers like .40 and or .357 sig.

All that in a reasonably sized, good capacity auto loader, with a wide array of bullet weights to satisfy a host of goals.
I would probably agree with you IF: You could somehow make the 10mm grip to fit most peoples hands. To big for the majority of people. And if the ammo company's made rounds DESIGNED FOR 10mm. But, neither is the case. Some would also say too much recoil, which would obviously affect accuracy and follow up shots. The majority of shots fired in shooting incidents DO NOT hit there target. So imho, 357 sig is as good as it gets.

xcaliburelite
11-01-2012, 10:37
The Glock SF and Gen4 weapons don't fit most shooters hands? If not, what brand 357SIG weapons are you talking about? The Glock 32 is the ideal 357SIG platform in my opinion, and the SF and Gen4 45's and 10mm's are the same frame.

I'll agree with your factory ammo statement though.

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dpadams6
11-01-2012, 11:24
The Glock SF and Gen4 weapons don't fit most shooters hands? If not, what brand 357SIG weapons are you talking about? The Glock 32 is the ideal 357SIG platform in my opinion, and the SF and Gen4 45's and 10mm's are the same frame.

I'll agree with your factory ammo statement though.

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The sf in 10mm/45 are the same size as the "large" backstrap in gen4. Its been talked about before here and the majority of people seem to use no backstrap(small) or the medium size. Very few use large size. And agree about the g32. Great size/platform.

RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 11:38
I would probably agree with you IF: (1)You could somehow make the 10mm grip to fit most peoples hands. To big for the majority of people. And if the (2)ammo company's made rounds DESIGNED FOR 10mm. But, neither is the case. Some would also say too much recoil, which would obviously affect accuracy and follow up shots. The majority of shots fired in shooting incidents DO NOT hit there target. So imho, 357 sig is as good as it gets.

Alright so you mean (1) not overall, but a great round for those that have small hands.

(2) is completely false with a)companies like Underwood, Doubletap, or those of us who can/do make our own. If you're buying off the shelf at Walmart I can understand that but there are real 10mm options out there..

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 12:03
Alright so you mean (1) not overall, but a great round for those that have small hands.

(2) is completely false with a)companies like Underwood, Doubletap, or those of us who can/do make our own. If you're buying off the shelf at Walmart I can understand that but there are real 10mm options out there..
Search here on glocktalk. There have been many polls on who uses what size backstraps. Very few pick large. And why do you think that gunmakers make 40/357 guns in 9mm size pistols? So they would fit THE MAJORITY of peoples hands. Have you held a sf/regular size glock 10mm or 45? The grips are huge compared to the majority of other calibers.
And yes, we have underwood and doubletap. But THEY don't make those rounds. They buy .40 s&w designed rounds and load them to nuclear 10mm velolocities.
I used to own a 20/29 sf models. Try shooting, say, an underwood 135 nosler or 165 gold dot. Holy s#it. Check out the fireball and recoil from those. Its much harder to shoot accurately and especially follow up shots with those nuclear loads.

dkf
11-01-2012, 12:10
(2) is completely false with a)companies like Underwood, Doubletap, or those of us who can/do make our own. If you're buying off the shelf at Walmart I can understand that but there are real 10mm options out there.. They all use bullets designed for the .40sw. I believe dpadams6 was referring to bullets designed specifically for the 10mm. The major factories as a whole ignore 10mm and what is available is downloaded closer to .40sw velocities with .40sw bullet designs. I would not expect PDs to rely on small niche ammo manufacturers for their duty ammo.

SCmasterblaster
11-01-2012, 13:47
Agreed. And why I carry and believe the 357sig is the best all around self defense handgun caliber on the planet. I think the hkp2000 and sig 229 in that caliber are particularly sexy. What say you?

Agreed, but I do wonder how the .357 Sig does against car doors. :shocked:

RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 15:12
They all use bullets designed for the .40sw. I believe dpadams6 was referring to bullets designed specifically for the 10mm. The major factories as a whole ignore 10mm and what is available is downloaded closer to .40sw velocities with .40sw bullet designs. I would not expect PDs to rely on small niche ammo manufacturers for their duty ammo.


Again, you're talking about cops, and I was referring to the statement of the best SELF DEFENSE round per se... Cops dont use things for "self defense".. they use guns for "offense".

And Im pretty sure there isnt a "bullet" designed for 10mm, nor was there ever... The .40 was/is a downloaded 10mm in a shorter case... A .40 projectile is generally a .40 projectile.... (and to be honest Im quite sure the projectiles of today are light years ahead or the original norma 10mm bullets)

I love talk of "designed for"... What are you going to do.. make the "bullet" out of stainless steel or cast iron? If a bullet frags or fails due to velocity , thats whats gonna happen...period.. What do you think can be done to a .40 projectile beyond plating 'or' bonding 'or' solid copper, 'etc'.. Magic dust isnt going to make it any stronger or more able to handle high end velocities. How much science do you think there is in a small ball of lead and or copper anyway? Hence why there are so many different bullet designs and for the "most" part they do much the same thing. This one penetrates 11 inches.. that one 10.75 inches, that one 11.25 inches...

Bottom line.. 10mm is a .40 projectile.. the difference is predominantly powder and a magnum case.

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 15:46
Again, you're talking about cops, and I was referring to the statement of the best SELF DEFENSE round per se... Cops dont use things for "self defense".. they use guns for "offense".

And Im pretty sure there isnt a "bullet" designed for 10mm, nor was there ever... The .40 was/is a downloaded 10mm in a shorter case... A .40 projectile is generally a .40 projectile.... (and to be honest Im quite sure the projectiles of today are light years ahead or the original norma 10mm bullets)

I love talk of "designed for"... What are you going to do.. make the "bullet" out of stainless steel or cast iron? If a bullet frags or fails due to velocity , thats whats gonna happen...period.. What do you think can be done to a .40 projectile beyond plating 'or' bonding 'or' solid copper, 'etc'.. Magic dust isnt going to make it any stronger or more able to handle high end velocities. How much science do you think there is in a small ball of lead and or copper anyway? Hence why there are so many different bullet designs and for the "most" part they do much the same thing. This one penetrates 11 inches.. that one 10.75 inches, that one 11.25 inches...

Bottom line.. 10mm is a .40 projectile.. the difference is predominantly powder and a magnum case.
There is more to bullet design than you think. Perfect example is a speer gold dot in 9mm(124grain) compared to 357sig(125). You would think being 1 grain different that they would look similar. Not so. The 9mm has a much deeper hollow point, while the 357sig is very shallow due to the extra speed and to prevent it from expanding too much and/or trying to fragment too much.

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 15:49
Agreed, but I do wonder how the .357 Sig does against car doors. :shocked:

Goes thru car doors and pillars like butter. And from just about any angle.

dpadams6
11-01-2012, 15:52
Again, you're talking about cops, and I was referring to the statement of the best SELF DEFENSE round per se... Cops dont use things for "self defense".. they use guns for "offense".

And Im pretty sure there isnt a "bullet" designed for 10mm, nor was there ever... The .40 was/is a downloaded 10mm in a shorter case... A .40 projectile is generally a .40 projectile.... (and to be honest Im quite sure the projectiles of today are light years ahead or the original norma 10mm bullets)

I love talk of "designed for"... What are you going to do.. make the "bullet" out of stainless steel or cast iron? If a bullet frags or fails due to velocity , thats whats gonna happen...period.. What do you think can be done to a .40 projectile beyond plating 'or' bonding 'or' solid copper, 'etc'.. Magic dust isnt going to make it any stronger or more able to handle high end velocities. How much science do you think there is in a small ball of lead and or copper anyway? Hence why there are so many different bullet designs and for the "most" part they do much the same thing. This one penetrates 11 inches.. that one 10.75 inches, that one 11.25 inches...

Bottom line.. 10mm is a .40 projectile.. the difference is predominantly powder and a magnum case.
Do you consider it a bad thing if your self defense round acted like an offense round?

Clutch Cargo
11-01-2012, 16:02
I carry both the .357SIG and .45ACP in my carry rotation and sometimes with a .38 as backup. I will, now and then, carry a .357 or .44 (loaded with .44 special) revolver. I'm confident in any of the main carry weapon calibers.

SCmasterblaster
11-01-2012, 16:15
Goes thru car doors and pillars like butter. And from just about any angle.

HP officers would like to hear this. :cool:

RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 16:34
There is more to bullet design than you think. Perfect example is a speer gold dot in 9mm(124grain) compared to 357sig(125). You would think being 1 grain different that they would look similar. Not so. The 9mm has a much deeper hollow point, while the 357sig is very shallow due to the extra speed and to prevent it from expanding too much and/or trying to fragment too much.


You might be right... And in the case of 357 sig and 9 mm it may be an issue.. But from what I know... All .40 caliber projectiles are interchangeable between 10mm and .40.... And they always have been.

Trigger Finger
11-01-2012, 18:07
I thought this thread was about the "CHP 357 Mag. Myth!!!"

What caused it to change into a 357 SIG thread? Isn't there another couple of threads about the 357 SIG. :dunno:

dkf
11-01-2012, 19:00
Again, you're talking about cops, and I was referring to the statement of the best SELF DEFENSE round per se... Cops dont use things for "self defense".. they use guns for "offense".

And Im pretty sure there isnt a "bullet" designed for 10mm, nor was there ever... The .40 was/is a downloaded 10mm in a shorter case... A .40 projectile is generally a .40 projectile.... (and to be honest Im quite sure the projectiles of today are light years ahead or the original norma 10mm bullets)

I love talk of "designed for"... What are you going to do.. make the "bullet" out of stainless steel or cast iron? If a bullet frags or fails due to velocity , thats whats gonna happen...period.. What do you think can be done to a .40 projectile beyond plating 'or' bonding 'or' solid copper, 'etc'.. Magic dust isnt going to make it any stronger or more able to handle high end velocities. How much science do you think there is in a small ball of lead and or copper anyway? Hence why there are so many different bullet designs and for the "most" part they do much the same thing. This one penetrates 11 inches.. that one 10.75 inches, that one 11.25 inches...

Bottom line.. 10mm is a .40 projectile.. the difference is predominantly powder and a magnum case. You might be right... And in the case of 357 sig and 9 mm it may be an issue.. But from what I know... All .40 caliber projectiles are interchangeable between 10mm and .40.... And they always have been.

All the rounds I use are also used by law enforcement. If it works for LE chances are it would work for a civilian for SD.

A lot of 9mm bullets can be loaded in .357sig no problem so.... Just because a bullet can be loaded in a cartridge does not mean it is designed to perform properly at the velocity that cartridges propels the bullet to. It is clear you really do not know anything about bullet design whatsoever. Nor the physical differences of bullets currently on the market.

JW1178
11-01-2012, 19:01
The .357mag came at a time when most cops were carrying .38spc loaded with standard pressure rounds, with older style hollowpoints that weren't really anything but soft points with the nose drilled out, and they didn't meet the velosities to actually make them expand. Along came the .357mag and compared to standard pressure .38's, it was the hammer of Thor. Today, with modern bullet designs and other factors in the auto loading platform, there are many other options that are very viable.

RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 19:20
. It is clear you really do not know anything about bullet design whatsoever. Nor the physical differences of bullets currently on the market.

Uh huh.. Cause you say so right. :rofl:

No you've been led to believe some hype about a particular caliber, and you've eaten it hook line and sinker.

Again though since you're pretty slow, I wasn't saying that 357 sig was a bad cartridge. It was the proclamation that it was the "best possible gun caliber to ever be devised by mankind" is what I took issue with. But instead of addressing that you keep blathering about bullet design which is really irrelevant to all of my commentary.

Go back and re read my posts a couple of times.. You'll get it eventually.

dkf
11-01-2012, 19:47
Uh huh.. Cause you say so right. :rofl:

No you've been led to believe some hype about a particular caliber, and you've eaten it hook line and sinker.

Again though since you're pretty slow, I wasn't saying that 357 sig was a bad cartridge. It was the proclamation that it was the "best possible gun caliber to ever be devised by mankind" is what I took issue with. But instead of addressing that you keep blathering about bullet design which is really irrelevant to all of my commentary.

Go back and re read my posts a couple of times.. You'll get it eventually.

Wow. You are some kind child arn't you?

I never said the .357sig was the best at anything. Clearly you are the one reading comprehension issues.

RYT 2BER
11-01-2012, 20:11
Wow. You are some kind child arn't you?

I never said the .357sig was the best at anything. Clearly you are the one reading comprehension issues.

Look at post number 2 on this thread... That is what my entire line of commentary was based on

"Agreed. And why I carry and believe the 357sig is the best all around self defense handgun caliber on the planet. I think the hkp2000 and sig 229 in that caliber are particularly sexy. What say you?"

I didn't say you said it, nor did I give a crap who said it. My point is was a bogus statement based on nothing.

Edit: you'll notice my first post was #23 which was quoting the aforementioned. Until you, the wise sage joined in

SCmasterblaster
11-02-2012, 07:36
I thought this thread was about the "CHP 357 Mag. Myth!!!"

What caused it to change into a 357 SIG thread? Isn't there another couple of threads about the 357 SIG. :dunno:

But many have called the .357 Sig the ".357 Magnum of auto pistols." :cool:

dpadams6
11-02-2012, 07:38
I thought this thread was about the "CHP 357 Mag. Myth!!!"

What caused it to change into a 357 SIG thread? Isn't there another couple of threads about the 357 SIG. :dunno:
Isn't it funny how that happens? AND IM GUILTY AS CHARGED. Lol

SCmasterblaster
11-02-2012, 07:52
Isn't it funny how that happens? AND IM GUILTY AS CHARGED. Lol

SO AM I!!!! :cool: