The .40 sucks. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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OctoberRust
10-29-2012, 21:18
No, I'm not saying that, just an interesting video.

I'll sit back for a sec and watch everyone's input on this.:popcorn:


.40s SUCK - YouTube

JW1178
10-29-2012, 21:37
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 00:52
9mm and .40 run in the same pressure range. So what's his point again? (Like the Winchester load that runs at 20% over SAAMI spec?)

High pressure rounds wear guns out faster? Does he mean like a steady diet of 9mm +P+ too?

In order to get the 9mm to really perform and rival the .40, you need velocity. Your not getting that velocity from a short barrel. You need a full size handgun unless your going to run ammo that's too hot and potentially unsafe.

The .40 and .45, as well as the .357 Sig still have more to offer over the 9mm. This isn't to say the 9mm is no good. If it's all I had, I wouldn't feel under gunned. Given a choice, I'd always go larger since I can easily handle the larger calibers.

So many of the 9mm fanboys tout the +P+ ammo and say it's equal to the .45 now. Ok, now I get to tout the Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 +P or the Federal HST 230 +P.

Take a hard look at the test data and tell me that the 9mm outperforms either of those loads. I think not. There is no way in hell.



I'd put myself up against this tatted up feminine hygiene product any day of the week. I'll even shoot a .40 and I'll show him how it's done. Just because he can't shoot a .40, .357 Sig, .45 Gap fast and accurate doesn't mean that there aren't those of us that can and do.

Examining the approximated terminal effects of bullets in ballistics gelatin is one thing. The way the bullet/cartridge actually performs in real life is another.

While I agree that nine is fine, it's still no .40 or .45 comparing the best loads or those calibers. If anything, the 9mm +P+ gets into the mid range .40 ballistics while the best .40 gets into the low to mid .45 ballistics.

The newer ammo for the .45 is going to be rather hard to beat without moving into a a exotic handgun caliber.

There are things to be gained and lost between the calibers. Sometimes they ever are substantial. Modern bullet technology has narrowed the gap some but rest assured, there is still a gap between the calibers. The same technological advances that made the 9mm better also did the same for all the other calibers that are commonly used in personal defense.

Any semiautomatic handgun that I'd ever use to defend my life will always have a 4 in the beginning of the caliber and preferably have a 5 after the 4.

It's my feeling and observation that there is too much to be gained from the .40 and up to go backwards/smaller in caliber.

The analogy comes to mind of the 4 cylinder versus 8 cylinder engine. Sure, you can make the same amount of practical horsepower of a V8 in a 4 cylinder engine, but now that little 4 cylinder has to scream and run as hard as it can to do the job of the larger engine.

And in the end, there is no replacement for displacement. To each their own but for me, size does matter. That's why I carry a .40 or .45 and you can't pull the phallic card out since I don't have any of the required equipment!

:supergrin:


(Crap, I guess I can't say 9 is fine if your a girl! :tongueout:)

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 01:03
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?

He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

:rofl:

CaliMoon2005- L
10-30-2012, 02:55
:rofl:

Arc Angel
10-30-2012, 03:41
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?

You're looking at JAMES YEAGER!

Can't say for sure, but I very much doubt that Yeager's on Glock Talk.

It's NOT a matter of the 9 and the 40 operating in the same ignition pressure range (33 to 35,000 psi); it's more a matter of controlling the initial pressure spike that occurs at the moment of primer ignition and bullet launch.

All ya got 'a do is use common sense to realize that no 40 caliber round ever goes off like a 9mm. The 9mm's recoil impulse is much easier to control than a 40 caliber's - That's what I believe Yeager is actually referring to.

ditto1958
10-30-2012, 05:35
I love that guy. Know why? Because he makes his living by not being afraid to take strong for stands on things. In fact, he's controversial on purpose. It attracts viewers, and he knows it.

Even if he is full of crap on an issue, at least he got people watch. And, he also got them thinking about it. That's a good thing, the way I look at it.

kaech
10-30-2012, 05:35
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

:rofl:

Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!



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TheJ
10-30-2012, 06:04
He does make some very very valid points. Like many studies have shown that in effect there is no significant difference in number of rounds to incapacitate between 9mm & .40. So a logical question is why you need to use a round that is demonstrably tougher to shoot as well. Conversely if there isn't a significant difference in how tough it is to shoot something well then why not go with the more powerful caliber. Most (not all) people who make that comparison though are typically comparing how they shoot in slow fire and relaxed/controlled situations, not under pressure.

People have their own reasons for their caliber choice but they do tend to overly butt-hurt when somebody comes along and picks on their choice.

Obviously, the title for video is intentionally provocative to attract viewers.

Scoob
10-30-2012, 06:34
OK, .40 is not higher pressure than 9mm although 357sig is. I agree that .40/357sig are harder to shoot but the reason seems pretty obvious. They are more powerful and in the same size gun. He mentioned 45 GAP. Again, is it the higher pressure of the GAP that causes more recoil or the fact that it's being fired from a smaller gun? Shoot a Glock 36 and the low pressure 45acp becomes a snappy round.

I think pressure may have an effect but I think it would be minimal. I've shot full size 1911s in .40 and 45 and they felt identical.

Snowman92D
10-30-2012, 06:35
Just before the battle, Mother...
I was sittin' drinkin' brew.
When I seen the hadji's comin',
To the roadside ditch I quickly flew...

Travclem
10-30-2012, 07:11
Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!



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James "Runaway" Yeager - YouTube

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 07:14
Is a provocative one, for sure.

English
10-30-2012, 08:02
Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

English

Leigh
10-30-2012, 08:24
[QUOTE=kaech;19570336]Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!

Actually, no.:upeyes:

1canvas
10-30-2012, 08:49
if I was a firearms instructor I would want to shoot a low recoiling 9mm. I haven't seen much difference in recoil when you compare a 9mm+P to a .40 to make that much difference. the difference comes when you compare target amm. 9mm is usually loaded down where the .40 isn't.

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 08:57
My next gun will be a G22 (!)

dkf
10-30-2012, 09:19
His classes.

Photographer on the firing line - YouTube

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 09:21
His classes.

Photographer on the firing line - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvdB9P_5Zp0&feature=share&list=PL550A635BC669095C)

It looks a bit messy.

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 09:24
Now the link works. What is that fool doing with a camera at the target line with all of those shooters shooting? :upeyes:

JW1178
10-30-2012, 09:29
Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!



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Nope. I saw a lot of his videos, not really watched them but he seems to be one of those who thinks everything popular sucks. The 1911 sucks too according to him. How can the .40 suck and the 9mm be great? I could understand if he said her perfered the 9mm, but what he likes is so great, everything else sucks.... he's one of those. He's that guy. Don't be that guy. In the heat of battle, he pulls a John Kerry.... what a badass. :upeyes:

Talk to real experts, they don't sound like this guy. A real expert can make any weapons system work, although they have preferences. Like I said before in another threat. You could have sent SEAL Team 6 into that compound with civil war muskets and OBL would still be dead. Hell, they could have done it unarmed.

PaulMason
10-30-2012, 09:36
No, I'm not saying that, just an interesting video.

I'll sit back for a sec and watch everyone's input on this.:popcorn:




The guy doens't understand physics and engineering. Because he can shoot a gun does not mean he understands either.

Leigh
10-30-2012, 09:36
Now the link works. What is that fool doing with a camera at the target line with all of those shooters shooting? :upeyes:

Was that really one of Yeager's classes?????

If so, he is bigger tool than I thought and no I don't feel dumb as Hell.

:upeyes:

ricklee4570
10-30-2012, 09:44
He has very controversial views, thats for sure!

PaulMason
10-30-2012, 09:44
I love that guy. Know why? Because he makes his living by not being afraid to take strong for stands on things. In fact, he's controversial on purpose. It attracts viewers, and he knows it.

Even if he is full of crap on an issue, at least he got people watch. And, he also got them thinking about it. That's a good thing, the way I look at it.

The problem is that some people think he knows what he is talking about and you have to deal with all that crap.

SDGlock23
10-30-2012, 09:58
Well Mr. Yeager needs to understand that his beloved 9mm is indeed a "high pressure" round, the 38 Special and .45 ACP guys can get away with saying that, not 9mm guys.

Terminal ballistics do often look very similar, but is it because the 9mm is equally as good, or that they represent the best that particular cartridge can muster? No, it's pretty simple. High quality hollow point loads in 9mm, 357 Sig, .40 and .45 are designed to meet certain perimeters, so it's no surprise that they seem to perform similarly...they're designed to.

If you shoot a Glock, I don't care what caliber, enough to wear it out, you've spent so much $$ on ammunition that buying another Glock to replace it shouldn't be an issue. Interesting that he claims that all that extra recoil and pressure and energy exerted in tearing the .40 cal Glock apart faster doesn't really do anything at the business end of things....ummmm sure.

We know it's all about shot placement, and I have no issue shooting my .40's or .45's every bit as well as my 9mm. If you can't shoot a .40 or 357 Sig or .45 just as well as a 9mm, you need more range time. Perhaps you can get slightly faster split times with a 9mm and that may be handy in a competition, but if I want 9mm like recoil I can load down my .40's to to be a *****cat, I've got 9mm recoil and still shoot a bigger bullet.

That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.

tcruse
10-30-2012, 10:08
I think that there at least 3 ways to look at this issue. One is by using bullet weight and velocity, then the issue becomes one of what measure you want to "assign" as your your favorite. Two is too look at some of the studies that attempted to record results based on caliber. The third is expermental by looking at performance in a controlled environment. You can pick your method and quantity measured to make any caliber be the best.

Many of the ammo makers have taylored their performance to match the FBI recomendations. So, with this measure you can make 9mm, 357SIG, .40, .45ACP, .45GAP and others meet the recomendations. The following link is one from Winchester on their SD ammo line. I see no indication that there is much difference between the calibers based on their testing.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf (http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf)

If you plan on shooting something other than 2 legged BAD GUYS then that is another subject.

SCmasterblaster
10-30-2012, 10:16
Well Mr. Yeager needs to understand that his beloved 9mm is indeed a "high pressure" round, the 38 Special and .45 ACP guys can get away with saying that, not 9mm guys.

Terminal ballistics do often look very similar, but is it because the 9mm is equally as good, or that they represent the best that particular cartridge can muster? No, it's pretty simple. High quality hollow point loads in 9mm, 357 Sig, .40 and .45 are designed to meet certain perimeters, so it's no surprise that they seem to perform similarly...they're designed to.

If you shoot a Glock, I don't care what caliber, enough to wear it out, you've spent so much $$ on ammunition that buying another Glock to replace it shouldn't be an issue. Interesting that he claims that all that extra recoil and pressure and energy exerted in tearing the .40 cal Glock apart faster doesn't really do anything at the business end of things....ummmm sure.

We know it's all about shot placement, and I have no issue shooting my .40's or .45's every bit as well as my 9mm. If you can't shoot a .40 or 357 Sig or .45 just as well as a 9mm, you need more range time. Perhaps you can get slightly faster split times with a 9mm and that may be handy in a competition, but if I want 9mm like recoil I can load down my .40's to to be a *****cat, I've got 9mm recoil and still shoot a bigger bullet.

That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.

I never realized that the .40S&W was so versatile; much more than the 9mm. My next gun is a G22! :cool:

1canvas
10-30-2012, 11:27
I think that there at least 3 ways to look at this issue. One is by using bullet weight and velocity, then the issue becomes one of what measure you want to "assign" as your your favorite. Two is too look at some of the studies that attempted to record results based on caliber. The third is expermental by looking at performance in a controlled environment. You can pick your method and quantity measured to make any caliber be the best.

Many of the ammo makers have taylored their performance to match the FBI recomendations. So, with this measure you can make 9mm, 357SIG, .40, .45ACP, .45GAP and others meet the recomendations. The following link is one from Winchester on their SD ammo line. I see no indication that there is much difference between the calibers based on their testing.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf (http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf)

If you plan on shooting something other than 2 legged BAD GUYS then that is another subject.

I think these gel tests leave out a very important factor, bones. it seems that a center of mass hit has about a 50% chance of hitting bone. now if they ever come up with simulated bone to embed into the gel we would have a better idea of the difference between calibers, loads, and different bullet performance. as it is now its no suprize there isn't that much difference between comparing caliber performance in gel.

PaulMason
10-30-2012, 11:42
I think these gel tests leave out a very important factor, bones. it seems that a center of mass hit has about a 50% chance of hitting bone. now if they ever come up with simulated bone to embed into the gel we would have a better idea of the difference between calibers, loads, and different bullet performance. as it is now its no suprize there isn't that much difference between comparing caliber performance in gel.

The FBI penetration recommomendation 12" in gel takes into account bone.

Mesure the depth of your chest.

Tiro Fijo
10-30-2012, 11:43
I think these gel tests leave out a very important factor, bones. it seems that a center of mass hit has about a 50% chance of hitting bone. now if they ever come up with simulated bone to embed into the gel we would have a better idea of the difference between calibers, loads, and different bullet performance. as it is now its no suprize there isn't that much difference between comparing caliber performance in gel.


http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%20Luger/9x19mm%20Luger%20Bone%20Test.pdf

1canvas
10-30-2012, 11:59
The FBI penetration recommomendation 12" in gel takes into account bone.

Mesure the depth of your chest.

my point is what happens to what bullet at what caliber at what speed. does the bullet plow through, expand, deflect, frag or what when hitting bone supported by gel. no amount of pure gel can tell you what happens when bullet hits bone directly or indirectly. I would bet you would see a real separation in calibers and bullet performance if simulated bone was introduced. I am surprized it hasn't happened yet.
I know there is a limit on testing to duplicate real world performance but 100% gel seems lacking.

cowboy1964
10-30-2012, 14:29
He does make some very very valid points. Like many studies have shown that in effect there is no significant difference in number of rounds to incapacitate between 9mm & .40.

"No significant difference"? So there IS a difference?

I have no doubt the .40 can potentially be more effective than the 9. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. There are always other factors though. If one can shoot a 9 better/faster than the 40, then the 9 is better, period. The ballistic difference is too minor to be the overriding consideration.

Anybody that thinks 180gr .40 is difficult to shoot needs some expert training.

cowboy1964
10-30-2012, 14:31
The FBI penetration recommomendation 12" in gel takes into account bone.


The 12-18" distance range is to account for non-frontal shots. Has nothing to do with what bones are in the way. Not directly anyway. But presumably when striking bone a round that does 16" in gel would generally do better than a round that does 12". But the point is, once a bone is struck everything goes out the window.

cowboy1964
10-30-2012, 14:35
That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps.

To me that versatility means nothing. I choose what I consider the best weight/velocity for a self-defense round and I practice with something that matches that as closely as possible. I'm not constantly switching around between weight and velocity extremes.

kaech
10-30-2012, 14:46
Was that really one of Yeager's classes?????

If so, he is bigger tool than I thought and no I don't feel dumb as Hell.

:upeyes:

Class??really??....that was filmed in Iraq.. dumb tool

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kaech
10-30-2012, 14:49
I never realized that the .40S&W was so versatile; much more than the 9mm. My next gun is a G22! :cool:

^^ yeah right........:rolleyes:....

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TheJ
10-30-2012, 15:10
People really get worked up over this stuff.

purrrfect 10
10-30-2012, 15:32
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

:rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

purrrfect 10
10-30-2012, 15:47
If the 9mm is all he can handle that is OK, For some people it take years shooting 177cal pellets to be able to handle a 9mm:rofl::rofl::rofl:

oldman11
10-30-2012, 15:50
I'm not a fan of the 40 S/W myself, but only because I shoot a 10mm, and don't see the need for both of them. His facts are a little skewed and are mostly opinions based on his own theories. I guess he thinks his tats makes him an expert. I am not impressed at all with his theories, and especially with that shooting vid with the photographer in front of the shooters. ???

uz2bUSMC
10-30-2012, 15:50
I'd put myself up against this tatted up feminine hygiene product any day of the week. I'll even shoot a .40 and I'll show him how it's done. Just because he can't shoot a .40, .357 Sig, .45 Gap fast and accurate doesn't mean that there aren't those of us that can and do.


I'd like to see that.:rofl:

Travclem
10-30-2012, 16:08
Class??really??....that was filmed in Iraq.. dumb tool

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The video of the class with the photographer on the target line was filmed in Iraq? Slow your roll.



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 16:11
I'd like to see that.:rofl:

Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

:yawn:

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 16:13
Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!



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I know who he is. While I usually respect his opinion, he's dead wrong on this one.

Just because he is who he is doesn't automatically make him right every time.

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 16:18
Well, since he can't shoot those high pressure rounds he'll at least have a reason for not shooting well right? :whistling:

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 16:19
Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!

Lets just say no more dumb than I feel after reading some of the threads (and certain posts from certain people) on GT anyhow. :whistling:

uz2bUSMC
10-30-2012, 16:30
Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

:yawn:

You must be a bad a--, then.

I'd be willin'...not driving to Ohio, though.

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 16:41
You must be a bad a--, then.

I'd be willin'...not driving to Ohio, though.



I'm not saying I'm a bad arse, but I'm confident I can hold my own though. I just want to go head to head with him while I'm using a .40 caliber gun of his choice so I can prove to him that I can at least shoot as good as him using a .40.

He doesn't have anything to worry about that though. It can't be done!

Right? :whistling:


If your ever in Ohio, PM me and we'll get together.

:wavey:

uz2bUSMC
10-30-2012, 16:49
If your ever in Ohio, PM me and we'll get together.

:wavey:

Will do.

NDCent
10-30-2012, 17:06
G27 is too small a frame for 40 cal.
40 cal won't shoot 50,000 rounds.
40 cal is harder to shoot.

So, what's his point? :dunno:
I'm good with all his statements. Guess I can keep all mine. :wavey:

bkkd
10-30-2012, 17:16
<<<<<<<<<<< not impressed.....I am an instructor too, I teach S&W .38 spcl revolver and 9MM semi-autos......I carry a glock 27. I promise you, I can hang with him with my 27.

Trigger Finger
10-30-2012, 17:31
Very little of what he says is factual. Most of it already covered by prior posts.

Guys like this irritate me to no end. Thinks he knows everything but has no real qualifications. Training thousands of people a year does not qualify you for much of anything.

Most of what he says is his own opinion, that he states as factual! Guys like this tattooed clown make me sick.
I would like to kneecap him with a 40. :steamed:

kaech
10-30-2012, 18:03
Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

:yawn:

^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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NEOH212
10-30-2012, 18:22
^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Doo!

:faint:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

:wavey:

Travclem
10-30-2012, 18:35
^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Maybe read her sig line.

kaech
10-30-2012, 18:53
Maybe read her sig line.

No

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Arc Angel
10-30-2012, 20:38
Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round.

In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.) ;)

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

Maybe so, but all I care about is how well, or not, a caliber (or chambering) handles and shoots. For whatever reasons it's just plain easier to, 'run and gun' with either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP pistol. This is the plain 'n pragmatic everyday truth of the matter!

(I'm not even going to get into any of my personal concerns about Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols being a lot safer to use than several of the other Glock caliber/chamberings.)

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. .......

:shocked: NOT kidding! I absolutely love reading this paragraph. It looks like HerrGlock isn't the only one around here who has his own unique, 'way with words'. Outstanding! (But, what the Hell, are you doing on Glock Talk?) :supergrin:

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

:headscratch: I've, now, read so many different versions of this story that I no longer know what to believe?

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Well, in all honesty, this is where I (and I suspect a great many other gunmen) get a lot of my gun information from too. ;)

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow!

To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

In all fairness to Mr. Yeager, I've often heard or seen Gabe Suarez say almost exactly the same thing. I, also, think that the term, 'pressure' needs to be clarified. I wouldn't choose a 40 over a 9 or a 45 on the basis of, 'pressure' too. The question becomes, 'What kind of pressure are we actually talking about here?'

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

YOU DEFINITELY CAUGHT HIM! :thumbsup:

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

One of the first people I ever ran into on internet gun forums is James Yeager. (I was an early member of, 'Lightfighter.com'.) The man was a gentleman; and he proved to me that he, at least, understands pistolcraft. I've, also, watched several videos of Yeager running a pistol course. Fact is the man can shoot! Is he a hero? Is he a coward? I don't know. A more important question might be, 'Can he teach what he knows about pistolcraft to others?'

I've watched that, 'Route Irish' ambush video several different times. What I see is a man who clearly got himself, 'off the X' in time; and, unlike his comrades, did not promptly return to it. Truth be told, what Yeager did that day is no different than what thousands and thousands of other combat troops have, also, done in many another war. I mean, heck, Napoleon Bonaparte, himself, did nearly the exact same thing when he ordered the bridge at Leipzig to be prematurely destroyed before a large portion of his badly beaten and retreating army was able to escape across it.

I guess things can look a lot different when you're the one who's, 'on the X'. Then again, if I had a friend who abandoned me to fight my own way off a road or out of a building, assuming I survived, that friend and I would be through - Forever!

Personally, I'm not going to, 'Monday morning quarterback' what Yeager did that day. He didn't do it to me; and, were I there, I might have, in fact, chosen to do the same thing, myself. So the only question to be answered is a purely subjective one, 'Do I trust this man to, 'guard my six' when it counts?'

My, 'gut opinion'? ....... No.

GlocksterPaulie
10-30-2012, 21:00
Yeager use to be on GT, I don't know if he still is. What he said about the .40 cal should make no difference to what caliber, pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc you choose to use.

If I could walk around with him or any other instructor strapped to my back and would fight my fights for me then I might listen to them. I am responsible for my family's ass and mine so I will use what I like.


He didn't say not to use it he just gave his reasons for not liking it but like I always said use what works for you.

OctoberRust
10-30-2012, 22:36
Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

English


English, great post, and very informative!

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread and put this video up.

So in a sense, if the platform was build FOR the .40, sort of like a 4th gen glock in .40 caliber, it should be as durable as a 9mm glock, since the recoil spring was now built around the .40, correct? Given the pressure in the barrel doesn't matter as much as slide momentum, right?

NEOH212
10-30-2012, 22:47
No

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It sounds like somebody has a case of butt hurt....:whistling:



Awwww, too bad.....:crying:



:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Clutch Cargo
10-31-2012, 00:24
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

:rofl:

Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course

NEOH212
10-31-2012, 01:14
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course


And all that being the case I'd expect him to be smarter than his idiotic comments in the video. Credentials for the most part mean nothing more than you've satisfied someones criteria. Or if you will, they give you a certificate stating you agree with their school of thought.

Bearing that in mind, credentials don't always mean that person is a expert or is 100% correct. Especially when they have been proven otherwise over the course of many years on a given topic. IE- The .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 Gap.

Just because the .40 doesn't work for him doesn't mean it's not effective or that people can't shoot it effectively. Should I bother to mention the fantastic track record that the .40 has earned over the course of many years?

You tell me.

Dispute that! (Go ahead, argue with facts.)




I've read a lot about him. I respect him and a lot of his viewpoints. However, I'm at odds with him on this one and I can't believe someone with his experience and expertise would make such a ridiculous statement. Especially when considering there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


As they say, Opinions are like arse openings. Everybody has one and is convinced theirs is the only one that doesn't stink.


After watching the video, I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Yeager has consumed too much Jager.

To each their own but remember, just because someone doesn't want to believe it doesn't make the truth any less true.

:wavey:

ilgunguygt
10-31-2012, 01:42
That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.
A 200gr bullet at 1200fps in a 40? I dont think I have seen a SAAMI spec'd load that does that.:dunno: Granted, I am not a 40 guy, but that seems to be more along the line of 10mm.

ricklee4570
10-31-2012, 03:03
If you love the .40 caliber then you will take offense to the video. Personally, I could not care any less.

In reality, if you shoot the 40 caliber well, you will probably be faster shooting the 9mm. If you feel that the 40 is vastly superior to make up for the speed, then so be it. If you think modern 9mm hollowpoints bridge the gap, then you will be happy with the 9mm.

I like the 45 for my own reasons!

cowboy1964
10-31-2012, 05:54
Credentials, experience, talent, whatever... people can still have strange and inexplicably silly opinions on matters. Rob Leatham uses FMJs for home defense.

cowboy1964
10-31-2012, 06:02
So many of the 9mm fanboys tout the +P+ ammo and say it's equal to the .45 now. Ok, now I get to tout the Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 +P or the Federal HST 230 +P.

Take a hard look at the test data and tell me that the 9mm outperforms either of those loads. I think not. There is no way in hell.


I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P.

I know you carry 165gr Gold Dots in .40. I forget what you use in .45.... 230gr Gold Dot?

English
10-31-2012, 08:14
English, great post, and very informative!

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread and put this video up.

So in a sense, if the platform was build FOR the .40, sort of like a 4th gen glock in .40 caliber, it should be as durable as a 9mm glock, since the recoil spring was now built around the .40, correct? Given the pressure in the barrel doesn't matter as much as slide momentum, right?

First, thank you! Second, not quite.

The 4th gen Glock is still a .40S&W conversion built on what is essentially a pistol designed for the 9mm. It has the same frames as the 9mm range and the slides are virtually the same weight as the 9mm range. As a result the slide velocity has to be greater in approximate proportion to the difference in bullet momentum. This produces two potential problems. The first is that the pistol has substantially more felt recoil thn the 9mm. Tolerance for felt recoil varies from person to person but for any individual at any point in their development there is some threshold over which a small increase changes the perception from OK to not OK at all. This is why so many people posting say it is not a problem and so many others complain about its unacceptable snappiness.

The second problem is whether it wears out the pistol faster than the 9mm. The Glock is a relatively special case here because the slide is brought to a final stop by the inner front of the slide round the recoil spring impacting a step in the frame. Because the polymer used for the frame is tough and resilient it seems able to endure this more or less indefinitely without damage. The other impact is that of the barrel impacting the steel locking block. That is supported by the polymer frame which has a little give, but if the locking block did wear enough to start to cause a problem it is cheap and easy to replace. What the video did not address was whether this potential for accelerated wear, which he claims to have experienced, affects Glocks as much as steel and aluminium framed pistols where metal to metal impact is a real problem. I don't know the answer to that but police armorers who have large scale experience of both should be in a better position to know the answer than someone who runs a training school.

If we come back to felt recoil, the Glock has another advantage relative to hammer fired pistols in particular but also to the S&W and the XD. The Glock has a much lower barrel axis and so the muzzle flip effect relative to total recoil is much reduced. Even with its lower weight the Glock can feel as though it less recoil than a SG Sauer for instance.

I don't have a .40S&W Glock but I do have a 19, a 20 and a 33. The 357SIG of the 33 is much the same recoil as the .40S&W in the 27 and I don't find it a problem now that I have modified the shape of the trigger guard. The split times of the 19 with 9mm and the 20 with 10mm are very close and if I were in a gunfight I would much sooner have the 20 than the 19 for the extra KE per shot at very little time penalty between shots. I would like a G32 so that I could compare its split times to the 19, but I have to many pistols already.

I also have a Steyr M1-40A and that is about 4 oz heavier than the G19 or G23 with a barrel axis as low or a little lower than the Glock. That is very nice to shoot but it was designed for the .40S&W in the first place and it has a superb grip design. How much of its "niceness" is due to the extra weight and how much to the grip shape, I don't know.

If you are seriously considering buying a .40S&W Glock I don't think you should be put off by Yeager's opinion but I would advise caution if you are new to handguns. Recoil is something you have to get used to in stages and starting off with the recoil of a .40S&W Glock is likely to cause you lasting problems. If you really want one, get a 9mm conversion barrel and one or two 9mm magazines at the same time. Then you can work up in stages and do much of you practice shooting with cheaper and easier to shoot 9mm.

English

SCmasterblaster
10-31-2012, 08:49
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement Flying Armed courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course

His CV must be a real pain to write!

English
10-31-2012, 10:06
But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.) ;)

I have no disagrement wth that apart from the fact that it is only the bore and the lips of the magazine that were scaled up! After a while they also put another pin in the locking block. All I was saying was that the resulting lightness has carry benefits at the cost of shooting benefits. To some that is worth while. If only they had increased the slide weight to about half way between the 9mm and the .45, there would be far fewer complaints about the snappiness of the .40.

Maybe so, but all I care about is how well, or not, a caliber (or chambering) handles and shoots. For whatever reasons it's just plain easier to, 'run and gun' with either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP pistol. This is the plain 'n pragmatic everyday truth of the matter!

Same answer as above. Do you ever use a pocket pistol? It is a compromise of everyday convenience over slight ease of shooting. That is mainly in practice and there is only a small chance of needing to actually fight when the extra KE might well compensate for the slight increase of split time. In a fight I am sure you would not be noticing the extra recoil and doubt the accuracy would be much different.

(I'm not even going to get into any of my personal concerns about Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols being a lot safer to use than several of the other Glock caliber/chamberings.)

Ah yes! afascinating subject but not for now.

:shocked: NOT kidding! I absolutely love reading this paragraph. It looks like HerrGlock isn't the only one around here who has his own unique, 'way with words'. Outstanding! (But, what the Hell, are you doing on Glock Talk?) :supergrin:

Thank you. I try to keep it under control but sometimes it slips out.

:headscratch: I've, now, read so many different versions of this story that I no longer know what to believe?

I think my version is correct but I have lost the source. It is easy to find out that the 10mm was always 10mm Lite and the weight of the S&W was about 3oz heavier than a 1911 hence relatively mild recoil.

Well, in all honesty, this is where I (and I suspect a great many other gunmen) get a lot of my gun information from too. ;)

Yes, but some of us apply the test of reason and argument to what we find on the internet. (I include you in this group.) I have learned a lot that I did not know before by this process as it has made me re-think previously unexamined opinions.

In all fairness to Mr. Yeager, I've often heard or seen Gabe Suarez say almost exactly the same thing. I, also, think that the term, 'pressure' needs to be clarified. I wouldn't choose a 40 over a 9 or a 45 on the basis of, 'pressure' too. The question becomes, 'What kind of pressure are we actually talking about here?'

Yes, Gabe Suarez used to be a .40S&W advocate and then became a 9mm advocate. I think, but don't know, that he has been against the .45ACP for a long time - he certainly is now. I disagree with him about the 9mm but agree with him about lots of other ideas about pistol craft. I think Suarez has put a lot of quite original thinking into his ideas and testing them as far as is practical. Without knowing enough about Yeager, I don't think he is that kind of individual, but I don't doubt the shooting ability of either of them.

I think Yeager is just talking about simple psi of the gas inside the barrel.

YOU DEFINITELY CAUGHT HIM! :thumbsup:



One of the first people I ever ran into on internet gun forums is James Yeager. (I was an early member of, 'Lightfighter.com'.) The man was a gentleman; and he proved to me that he, at least, understands pistolcraft. I've, also, watched several videos of Yeager running a pistol course. Fact is the man can shoot! Is he a hero? Is he a coward? I don't know. A more important question might be, 'Can he teach what he knows about pistolcraft to others?'

I've watched that, 'Route Irish' ambush video several different times. What I see is a man who clearly got himself, 'off the X' in time; and, unlike his comrades, did not promptly return to it. Truth be told, what Yeager did that day is no different than what thousands and thousands of other combat troops have, also, done in many another war. I mean, heck, Napoleon Bonaparte, himself, did nearly the exact same thing when he ordered the bridge at Leipzig to be prematurely destroyed before a large portion of his badly beaten and retreating army was able to escape across it.

I guess things can look a lot different when you're the one who's, 'on the X'. Then again, if I had a friend who abandoned me to fight my own way off a road or out of a building, assuming I survived, that friend and I would be through - Forever!

Personally, I'm not going to, 'Monday morning quarterback' what Yeager did that day. He didn't do it to me; and, were I there, I might have, in fact, chosen to do the same thing, myself. So the only question to be answered is a purely subjective one, 'Do I trust this man to, 'guard my six' when it counts?'

My, 'gut opinion'? ....... No.

I don't have an opinion about this aspect of Yeager's character as I don't know enough of the facts. I don't know where he ran to or what he did when he got there. If he was laying down effective covering fire from a relatively protected position, that could well have been more use than returning to the vehicle and getting shot on the way. If he was just crouching in a ditch it would be a different matter.

English

SCmasterblaster
10-31-2012, 10:35
Irregardless, my next handgun will be a G22. I have bullets, brass, dies, primers, and powder ready to go.

cowboy1964
10-31-2012, 11:38
Irregardless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless

TheJ
10-31-2012, 12:06
Credentials, experience, talent, whatever... people can still have strange and inexplicably silly opinions on matters. Rob Leatham uses FMJs for home defense.

If i were a bad guy, I don't think I would want Leatham shooting at me regardless of what ammo he's using lol

OctoberRust
10-31-2012, 12:28
First, thank you! Second, not quite.

The 4th gen Glock is still a .40S&W conversion built on what is essentially a pistol designed for the 9mm. It has the same frames as the 9mm range and the slides are virtually the same weight as the 9mm range. As a result the slide velocity has to be greater in approximate proportion to the difference in bullet momentum. This produces two potential problems. The first is that the pistol has substantially more felt recoil thn the 9mm. Tolerance for felt recoil varies from person to person but for any individual at any point in their development there is some threshold over which a small increase changes the perception from OK to not OK at all. This is why so many people posting say it is not a problem and so many others complain about its unacceptable snappiness.

The second problem is whether it wears out the pistol faster than the 9mm. The Glock is a relatively special case here because the slide is brought to a final stop by the inner front of the slide round the recoil spring impacting a step in the frame. Because the polymer used for the frame is tough and resilient it seems able to endure this more or less indefinitely without damage. The other impact is that of the barrel impacting the steel locking block. That is supported by the polymer frame which has a little give, but if the locking block did wear enough to start to cause a problem it is cheap and easy to replace. What the video did not address was whether this potential for accelerated wear, which he claims to have experienced, affects Glocks as much as steel and aluminium framed pistols where metal to metal impact is a real problem. I don't know the answer to that but police armorers who have large scale experience of both should be in a better position to know the answer than someone who runs a training school.

If we come back to felt recoil, the Glock has another advantage relative to hammer fired pistols in particular but also to the S&W and the XD. The Glock has a much lower barrel axis and so the muzzle flip effect relative to total recoil is much reduced. Even with its lower weight the Glock can feel as though it less recoil than a SG Sauer for instance.

I don't have a .40S&W Glock but I do have a 19, a 20 and a 33. The 357SIG of the 33 is much the same recoil as the .40S&W in the 27 and I don't find it a problem now that I have modified the shape of the trigger guard. The split times of the 19 with 9mm and the 20 with 10mm are very close and if I were in a gunfight I would much sooner have the 20 than the 19 for the extra KE per shot at very little time penalty between shots. I would like a G32 so that I could compare its split times to the 19, but I have to many pistols already.

I also have a Steyr M1-40A and that is about 4 oz heavier than the G19 or G23 with a barrel axis as low or a little lower than the Glock. That is very nice to shoot but it was designed for the .40S&W in the first place and it has a superb grip design. How much of its "niceness" is due to the extra weight and how much to the grip shape, I don't know.

If you are seriously considering buying a .40S&W Glock I don't think you should be put off by Yeager's opinion but I would advise caution if you are new to handguns. Recoil is something you have to get used to in stages and starting off with the recoil of a .40S&W Glock is likely to cause you lasting problems. If you really want one, get a 9mm conversion barrel and one or two 9mm magazines at the same time. Then you can work up in stages and do much of you practice shooting with cheaper and easier to shoot 9mm.

English


Interesting, makes sense.

and no, I'm not considering buying a glock in .40. I have owned them in the past, but prefer the glock 19, I personally shoot 9mm better/faster, even in +P+ loads it seems.

PVolk
10-31-2012, 12:38
Assuming everything Mr. Yeager said is correct, specifically which parts wear out due to the .40 round?

Had Mr. Yeager said "I find the .40 round difficult for me to shoot", then I don't think there would be an issue. But he instead insinuated that no matter the gun and no matter the shooter, the .40 round is difficult to shoot. And that's misinforming pure and simple.

That said, both of my Glocks are .40, although I appreciate most calibers. And I've never had an issue shooting any .40 pistol. My G24 has less muzzle rise than most 9mm's. I'm glad he doesn't like it. More for me. :)

SCmasterblaster
10-31-2012, 13:04
Assuming everything Mr. Yeager said is correct, specifically which parts wear out due to the .40 round?

Had Mr. Yeager said "I find the .40 round difficult for me to shoot", then I don't think there would be an issue. But he instead insinuated that no matter the gun and no matter the shooter, the .40 round is difficult to shoot. And that's misinforming pure and simple.

That said, both of my Glocks are .40, although I appreciate most calibers. And I've never had an issue shooting any .40 pistol. My G24 has less muzzle rise than most 9mm's. I'm glad he doesn't like it. More for me. :)

Or the recoil spring assembly?

PVolk
10-31-2012, 13:25
That's part of the reason I asked. I was wondering if he was referring to $12 parts when talking about premature wear and longevity. Replacing cheap parts after 50k rounds wouldn't at all concern me. Unless he's talking about frames or something...

NDCent
10-31-2012, 15:01
That's part of the reason I asked. I was wondering if he was referring to $12 parts when talking about premature wear and longevity. Replacing cheap parts after 50k rounds wouldn't at all concern me. Unless he's talking about frames or something...

Cheap ammo at $15 x 50 rounds = $300 per 1000 rounds
50,000 rounds = $15,000.00

I'll buy a new $600 pistol if it makes it even close to 50 thousand rounds.

PVolk
10-31-2012, 15:23
I agree. If I put 50k rounds through a pistol, I'd say I got my money's worth out of it. My point is that I've never even heard of anyone wearing out a pistol by shooting it too much. Let alone specifically due to .40 s&w. Not to say that is hasn't happened or isn't impossible, but I'd be curious to know what "worn out and/or broken" specifically entails - especially with .40.

James leads veiwers to believe .40 is uncontrollable and will be a paper weight in no time flat if you shoot it often. Pretty rediculous in my opinion...

Arc Angel
10-31-2012, 15:57
……… If only they had increased the slide weight to about half way between the 9mm and the .45, there would be far fewer complaints about the snappiness of the .40.

You might, very well, have a point; however, I’m still concerned about the 40’s exceedingly high initial pressure spike. I don’t like it; and it causes me to mistrust any polymer frame pistol the 40 is used in. (Let’s not forget the first 40’s and 10’s were metal frame pistols.)

Same answer as above. Do you ever use a pocket pistol? It is a compromise of everyday convenience over slight ease of shooting. That is mainly in practice and there is only a small chance of needing to actually fight when the extra KE might well compensate for the slight increase of split time. In a fight I am sure you would not be noticing the extra recoil and doubt the accuracy would be much different.

Of course I use a pocket pistol. I just came in from outside. I went out to walk our Bulldog while I was wearing a pair of unbelted sweat pants. My pocket pistol was in my right front pocket the entire time we were out. Same thing when I go to get the mail from the box at the end of the driveway.

You’ve reminded me that I drove my shooting buddies, ‘crazy’ for more than 2 years while I tried to make up my mind about which pocket pistol I should carry. In fact you just stated the reasons, ‘Why’ it took me so long to finally make up my mind!

I needed the least amount of compromise and the highest degree of transition I could find for my own pocket pistol. I finally decided upon a Beretta Model 3032, ‘Tom Cat’ pistol (Actually an, ‘Alley Cat’) with an XS Systems, ‘golf ball’ front sight. What’s it do for me? The extra wide backstrap allows me to transition down to a much smaller pistol with no sensation of downsizing, and very little loss of accuracy. I keep it loaded with very hot, Hornady, ‘XTP’ bullets.

In a pistol gunfight I definitely do not notice recoil. I’ve trained with recoil all of my life. To me RECOIL IS A TOOL which I use to drive the pistol - Any pistol I happen to be holding.

Thank you. I try to keep it under control but sometimes it slips out.

Yeah, it slipped out all right! What? Cambridge or Eaton.

………. Yes, but some of us apply the test of reason and argument to what we find on the internet. (I include you in this group.) I have learned a lot that I did not know before by this process as it has made me re-think previously unexamined opinions.

Humbling, isn’t it! This is the reason, ‘Why’ I continue to hang around internet gun forums, too. :supergrin:

Yes, Gabe Suarez used to be a .40S&W advocate and then became a 9mm advocate. I think, but don't know, that he has been against the .45ACP for a long time - he certainly is now. I disagree with him about the 9mm but agree with him about lots of other ideas about pistol craft. I think Suarez has put a lot of quite original thinking into his ideas and testing them as far as is practical. Without knowing enough about Yeager, I don't think he is that kind of individual, but I don't doubt the shooting ability of either of them.

Yeah. I’d say, ‘a long time’ too. I don’t, however, think Suarez is wrong; I know he is. (I regularly watch beef cattle getting executed by gunfire for market. I know, firsthand, what pistol and rifle bullets can and cannot do, as well as how long it takes in order to get the job done.) Let’s just say that comparatively easy to knock over deer, beef cattle ain’t! Putting large beef cattle down is a damned gruesome business.

In my (admittedly limited) experience communicating with Suarez and Yeager, they are somewhat dissimilar individuals. Suarez is more of a thinker; and Yeager is better with a pistol. Both men are good talkers, used to public discourse, and can be engaging.

I think Yeager is just talking about simple psi of the gas inside the barrel.

Probably, but, he appears to have the concept somewhat muddled. (That doesn’t mean he’s all wrong, though.)

I don't have an opinion about this aspect of Yeager's character as I don't know enough of the facts. I don't know where he ran to or what he did when he got there. If he was laying down effective covering fire from a relatively protected position, that could well have been more use than returning to the vehicle and getting shot on the way. If he was just crouching in a ditch it would be a different matter.

While, at least, one of his vehicle’s occupants jumped out and engaged, Yeager jumped out and ran to a ditch on the opposite side of the road. He remained there out of sight, and out of the line of fire. Yeager did not use his weapon from this position. Prior to jumping out of the vehicle, Yeager had taken it out of drive and, for unknown reasons, set the parking brake.

Here, you can read the Edinburgh, ‘After-Action report’ for yourself -

http://www.defensereview.com/stories/biap/ERSM%20Corporate%20version%20AAR.doc

(The document is, ‘clean’.)

uz2bUSMC
10-31-2012, 16:20
Eh... I'll save it for another time.

Henry's Dad
10-31-2012, 23:00
I love how he makes a small *****/compensation joke about guys who shoot .40s.

And yet...

Shaved head (check)
Goatee (check)
Tat sleeve (check)
Overly tight t-shirt (check)

So, what's this guy compensating for?

NEOH212
11-01-2012, 01:32
I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P.

I know you carry 165gr Gold Dots in .40. I forget what you use in .45.... 230gr Gold Dot?

Your correct. In .40, I primarily carry the 165 Gold Dot. I also really like my test results with the Ranger T-Series in the same weight.

The 200 +P in .45 is a bit snappy out of the poly guns. In a all metal frame gun such as a 1911 or a Sig 220, it's not as bad.

In .45 I usually carry the 230 Grain Gold Dot but lately I've been carrying the Ranger T-Series 230 grain JHP (RA45T) standard pressure load. (I got a good deal on a thousand rounds of RA45T so I couldn't pass it up. Besides, my supply of 230 Gold Dot is drying up.)

I'm very strongly considering the HST 230+P though. (I'm actually considering +P ammo. I never thought I'd see the day I'd do that! LOL!:supergrin:)

It's the only +P load I've tested so far that doesn't feel like +P but still delivers on the velocity!

I'm normally not a big fan of +P ammo in any caliber since it's usually a good bit more snappy than the standard pressure stuff. This HST load is the one exception so far. I don't know how they did it but it delivers on the velocity and shoots like standard pressure ammo!

It has more muzzle blast but I don't notice a change in recoil or point of impact from the standard pressure Ranger ammo, standard 230 ball, or the 230 Gold Dot.

NEOH212
11-01-2012, 01:33
I love how he makes a small *****/compensation joke about guys who shoot .40s.

And yet...

Shaved head (check)
Goatee (check)
Tat sleeve (check)
Overly tight t-shirt (check)

So, what's this guy compensating for?



Certainly not his over inflated ego!

:rofl:

NEOH212
11-01-2012, 01:39
I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P

Yes. In most cases, that's the trade off with +P ammo and why I've almost completely avoided it over the years.

However, as the case is with the HST 230 +P that I've been extensively testing in the past few months, I guess there are always exceptions that are a game changer!

English
11-01-2012, 11:17
You might, very well, have a point; however, Im still concerned about the 40s exceedingly high initial pressure spike. I dont like it; and it causes me to mistrust any polymer frame pistol the 40 is used in. (Lets not forget the first 40s and 10s were metal frame pistols.)

I presume you mean the pressure spike shortly after ignition but also presume that it is within SAAMI limits. At that time, the pressure is contained entirely within the barrel and breechface with the barrel locked into the slide. As such the material of the frame is unimportant provided it can take the recoil loads and the right polymers are well able to do that. The great advantage of polymer in a burst case or chamber is that the high pressure gases don't burst the frame and the pressure is exhausted, along with the magazine, through the magazine well. The disadvantage with the metal framed pistol in the same circumstance is that the same pressure breaks the wooden grips and drives the splinters into the shooter's hand. If the burst happened forward of the trigger guard, I can believe that a metal dust cover would offer more protection than a polymer one but that is a much rarer event.

What bothers me with the .40S&W and 357SIG is that fitting a bigger diameter case into the space designed for a 9mm might result in thinner walls and burst chambers in cases where a 9mm with the same level of malfunction might survive, bulged but unburst. This obviously doesn't bother me very much because I have not investigated it.

I do agree that the .40S&W has stretched the limits a little too far. The 10mm is able to produce so much more performance simply because its extra case volume allows it to reduce the spike. By squeezing 10mm Lite performance into the length of the 9mm they are pushing close to the limit of the pressure spike. This, I think, is why there are +p and +p+ loads for the 9mm but not for the 40S&W. If they had designed it to be even as litle as 1 or 1.5mm longer they would have avoided the problem. That would have meant that new designs of pistol would have to have been made and they would then have been designed to be the proper weight. The slight front to back length increase of the grip would not have been as difficult for shorter hands to accommodate as with the 10mm and more people might now be shooting the S&W .40 instead of the .45ACP.

We have talked, in this thread, of the fact that some .40S&W pistols were designed as slight modifications of existing 9mm, but that others, HK and Steyr for instance, were designed for the .40 in the first place with 9mms versions of the bigger pistols rather than the other way round. S&W, of course, always intended it to be for modified 9mm pistols and that single thing might be why its investment was agreed to by S&W and Winchester. In my .40S&W Extra it might never have seen the light of day, but it is a shame that the didn't do it properly. Even as it is, I think it is a better compromise than the 9mm.

.....
Yeah, it slipped out all right! What? Cambridge or Eaton.

Nothing so special or grand unfortunately. What wonders the world might have seen had it been so! My schooling was very mixed for various reasons. University was a great basis, but writing has just been a matter of continuing effort and self criticism.


Humbling, isnt it! This is the reason, Why I continue to hang around internet gun forums, too. :supergrin:

On occasion it is humbling. "How could I have been so STUPID!" On the other hand I have cultivated a mindset that regards discovering my errors as a beneficial gain in my knowledge. Then it can be a pleasure to find I have been wrong but am now less likely to be so - but not always!

I am blessed or cursed with an excess of curiosity and a tendency to notice ideas, including my own, that don't make enough sense. So these moments are not rare. I am continually delighted and amazed at how much can be disovered just by thinking in a constructive way from implication to implication. Some things are so just because they can't be any other way.

English

SDGlock23
11-01-2012, 12:42
To me that versatility means nothing. I choose what I consider the best weight/velocity for a self-defense round and I practice with something that matches that as closely as possible. I'm not constantly switching around between weight and velocity extremes.

Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but if I can make the most of my gun then why not? I carry quality factory JHP's for self defense and to me, that's plenty for "social" work. I practice with normal loads as well, but if I want more I've got it. Should I happen to want something softer, I've got that too and to me, that's a good thing to have.

If I had to choose one pistol cartridge it would be the .40. I like the .45 (ACP and Super), I don't dislike the 9mm and have no use for the 10mm, so I sold it. Such broad versatility means I can have all bases covered without having to own one pistol for this, one for that, etc.

SCmasterblaster
11-01-2012, 13:51
Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but if I can make the most of my gun then why not? I carry quality factory JHP's for self defense and to me, that's plenty for "social" work. I practice with normal loads as well, but if I want more I've got it. Should I happen to want something softer, I've got that too and to me, that's a good thing to have.

If I had to choose one pistol cartridge it would be the .40. I like the .45 (ACP and Super), I don't dislike the 9mm and have no use for the 10mm, so I sold it. Such broad versatility means I can have all bases covered without having to own one pistol for this, one for that, etc.

Good thinking, brother.

BigAlE
11-01-2012, 13:58
>James Yeager
yeah, no.

sharkbait22
11-01-2012, 15:24
He probably would have saved himself a lot of criticism if he would have explained that most people can shoot a 9mm better than they can shoot a .40 Example; you may be able to out shoot me with your .40 while I'm using my 9 but you can not shoot a .40 better than you can shoot a 9mm. But if you like the larger caliber and don't feel the faster splits make any difference then shoot what you like! Caliber wars are stupid IMO. Calibers play such a small part in SD. There are too many variables to ever quantify one caliber over the other. I have seen a lot of people shot with a lot of different loads. Shot placement is key and multiple shots on target trumps larger calibers IMHO. If you have the cash to practice enough with a .40 to be as efficient as I am with my 9mm then my hats off to you!

SCmasterblaster
11-01-2012, 16:13
He probably would have saved himself a lot of criticism if he would have explained that most people can shoot a 9mm better than they can shoot a .40 Example; you may be able to out shoot me with your .40 while I'm using my 9 but you can not shoot a .40 better than you can shoot a 9mm. But if you like the larger caliber and don't feel the faster splits make any difference then shoot what you like! Caliber wars are stupid IMO. Calibers play such a small part in SD. There are too many variables to ever quantify one caliber over the other. I have seen a lot of people shot with a lot of different loads. Shot placement is key and multiple shots on target trumps larger calibers IMHO. If you have the cash to practice enough with a .40 to be as efficient as I am with my 9mm then my hats off to you!


I think that you are correct about the .40 being harder to shoot than a 9mm. I am about to buy a G22 after 23 years of carrying/shooting a G17.

sharkbait22
11-01-2012, 16:22
I think that you are correct about the .40 being harder to shoot than a 9mm. I am about to buy a G22 after 23 years of carrying/shooting a G17.

Wow! You certainly are no stranger to the G17! Hopefully you'll get another 23 years out of your G23. :thumbsup:

PrecisionRifleman
11-01-2012, 19:01
I think he just sucks at shooting the 40. I love my 40, and yes it takes a little more practice to get used to v.s a 9mm or 45 in a compact package, but I think it's well worth it. For the record I pretty much like em all though.

FLIPPER 348
11-01-2012, 19:05
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?



The tats are ghey but that is not a 'go tee' but rather a Vandyke.

Do continue as I have think the .40 is a great round.

JW1178
11-01-2012, 19:16
I love how he makes a small *****/compensation joke about guys who shoot .40s.

And yet...

Shaved head (check)
Goatee (check)
Tat sleeve (check)
Overly tight t-shirt (check)

So, what's this guy compensating for?

:rofl:

I wonder what kind of vehicle he drives. I could imagine him hopping out of a jacked up pickup truck with stacks cut out of the bed, wearing a Tapout shirt and white framed sunglasses.... that would top it off!!!

reelnative
11-01-2012, 19:26
James Yeager well hes a looser to start, he lost on one man army show didnt even come in second, second off he states that he lost 3 budys in iraq in an ambush, usually the ones who live were hiding while the ones fighting die mmm makes ya think about this guy, i think hes full of **** if you cant hold a 40 and shoot it then you dont need to be messing with weapons, ive got one (a 40)its what my 120lb wife shoots, hes just another ass clown that wants to spout off, let him have his fun but that was 6min and 32sec of my life ill never get back

Henry's Dad
11-01-2012, 21:20
:rofl:

I wonder what kind of vehicle he drives. I could imagine him hopping out of a jacked up pickup truck with stacks cut out of the bed, wearing a Tapout shirt and white framed sunglasses.... that would top it off!!!

Either that, or his wife makes him drive a minivan.

SouthpawShooter
11-02-2012, 04:04
Ugh, really? This crapola again?

I'm convinced that many of these "tactical firearms instructors" all repeat the same mantra about using 9mm and "shot placement" to sell classes.

They get students brainwashed to believe that all they need are a G19, and cheap 9mm ammo and several classes to defend themselves, and to not worry about ballistics or "magic bullets".

Well, I don't believe in "magic bullets", but as long as I can shoot it proficiently, I want the most powerful round I can have in a package that's reliable, concealable, and controllable.

Do I believe in, and more importantly count on "1 shot stops"? NO. But, there may be times where 1 shot is all you get before your adversary is on top of you, and your pistol now won't go back into battery, and it's now a grappling match; where it's either go hands on, go to a blade, or try to re-rack slide. I'd really prefer that if all I get is 1 round in the guy, I want it to do as much damage as possible, making the rest of the encounter more favorable to me.

How anyone can say that there is "no difference" in being hit with a heavier, faster moving projectile given the same materials and construction, is beyond reason.

Forget about shot placement for a minute- you have a choice- a high school all city pitcher throwing an 8 ounce baseball at your head, or Nolan Ryan throwing a 10 ounce baseball at your head?

I really think the whole ".40 uncontrollable recoil impulse" is repeated by people who either don't shoot much, or who have girly, delicate wrists and hands, or both.

I went shooting last week, and took my dad, who hasn't shot in quite some time. I brought my gen 2 G19, and my gen 3 G23. We shot 115 gr 9mm FMJ, and 180 gr TMJ .40(like FMJ, but with a truncated flat nose)

While I'll admit the .40 definitely has more recoil, it is not all that difficult to keep a 4-5 inch group at 20 yards or so rapid fire.

I basically did a back to back comparison with my 19 & 23 doing mag dumps into identical targets at identical distances, and the groups were almost identical. (with the exception of bigger holes with the .40)

My dad had a little harder time with the .40, but he still had decent groups. Since he's not used to shooting, the 9mm was more "pleasant" to shoot. And I'll admit, the 9mm is very mild, and easy on the hands, wrists, arms, etc.

I don't consider myself a .40 "fanboy". I really don't care. I use what works. If I can shoot it proficiently, I use it. If it makes a bigger, deeper hole, and hits harder, how can that be bad?

There is only a 2 round difference in capacity between the 19 & 23. So that is a non-issue. If the 14 rounds of .40 didn't solve my problem, then it's time to reload. However, the odds of that happening are literally less than winning the lottery.

Would I feel naked, and undergunned with a 9mm? No. It's fine. It has nothing to do with ***** size, or ego, or any other crap that is spouted by the same guys all the time. And please, spare me the "9mm is cheaper, so I can train more", garbage too. I buy ammo in lots of a thousand. It's about $20 more for .40. I guess I'm lucky enough to be one of the "1%" so I can afford the extra 20 bucks. :upeyes:

The guys who say this crap are buying 50 round boxes at walmart when their wife will let them. Sorry, but if you're buying 50 round boxes, you're plinking, not training. If 20 bucks difference is keeping you from "training", then you have bigger problems in your life.

These arguments are lame. Just shoot what you like- preferably, the most powerful round you can control, that offers a reasonable capacity, and can conceal if necessary. PERIOD.

P.S. I purchased a Lone Wolf .357 Sig bbl for my G23, and wanted to try it out, but unfortunately, the range was out of .357 sig ammo! I just got the darn bbl in the mail, and like a dummy, figured they'd have some. :crying:

gatorboy
11-02-2012, 07:43
""But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)""
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The slides were heavier from day one. The barrel and chamber were both made very close to the same thickness as the 9mm (by way of larger breechface [duh] and larger O.D. barrel) which is same pressure. Other than 20# recoil spring which many of us 40 and 357auto shooters did, what else is there? Make it fat like a 10mm/45? Only reason I don't carry 10mm everyday personally.

SCmasterblaster
11-02-2012, 07:48
Your correct. In .40, I primarily carry the 165 Gold Dot. I also really like my test results with the Ranger T-Series in the same weight.

The 200 +P in .45 is a bit snappy out of the poly guns. In a all metal frame gun such as a 1911 or a Sig 220, it's not as bad.

In .45 I usually carry the 230 Grain Gold Dot but lately I've been carrying the Ranger T-Series 230 grain JHP (RA45T) standard pressure load. (I got a good deal on a thousand rounds of RA45T so I couldn't pass it up. Besides, my supply of 230 Gold Dot is drying up.)

I'm very strongly considering the HST 230+P though. (I'm actually considering +P ammo. I never thought I'd see the day I'd do that! LOL!:supergrin:)

It's the only +P load I've tested so far that doesn't feel like +P but still delivers on the velocity!

I'm normally not a big fan of +P ammo in any caliber since it's usually a good bit more snappy than the standard pressure stuff. This HST load is the one exception so far. I don't know how they did it but it delivers on the velocity and shoots like standard pressure ammo!

It has more muzzle blast but I don't notice a change in recoil or point of impact from the standard pressure Ranger ammo, standard 230 ball, or the 230 Gold Dot.

I use +p+ for my G17 ccw load. I don't notice a big change in recoil. :cool:

English
11-02-2012, 09:22
""But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)""
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The slides were heavier from day one. The barrel and chamber were both made very close to the same thickness as the 9mm (by way of larger breechface [duh] and larger O.D. barrel) which is same pressure. Other than 20# recoil spring which many of us 40 and 357auto shooters did, what else is there? Make it fat like a 10mm/45? Only reason I don't carry 10mm everyday personally.

Thanks for that. I can see that the 22 is heavier than the 17 by 0.88 oz and so the slide is the same extra weight, but do you know the slide weight? The standard recoil spring is, I believe, the same.

I am happy with both possibilities for weight, That is, the present light weight and a heavier weight with a slightly wider slide. One provides easier carry and the other provides nicer shooting with less felt recoil. I believe that the extra slide width need not go outside the frame width to give a substantial benefit. It does not need to b as fat as the .45, but neither would it be as soft shooting.

For what it is worth, I would stick with the present size and weight if I were carrying for extended periods. That is especially so for the G33 and 27.

English

BBMW
11-02-2012, 10:09
Has anyone here ever worn out a .40 Glock, or any .40, or any pistol at all? I think this is a huge red herring.

SCmasterblaster
11-02-2012, 11:31
Thanks for that. I can see that the 22 is heavier than the 17 by 0.88 oz and so the slide is the same extra weight, but do you know the slide weight? The standard recoil spring is, I believe, the same.

I am happy with both possibilities for weight, That is, the present light weight and a heavier weight with a slightly wider slide. One provides easier carry and the other provides nicer shooting with less felt recoil. I believe that the extra slide width need not go outside the frame width to give a substantial benefit. It does not need to b as fat as the .45, but neither would it be as soft shooting.

For what it is worth, I would stick with the present size and weight if I were carrying for extended periods. That is especially so for the G33 and 27.

English

If the G22 was made from the frame, barrel, and slide of a G17, then wouldn't the G22 weigh less from having less metal in the barrel than the G17?

Henry's Dad
11-02-2012, 13:21
Has anyone here ever worn out a .40 Glock, or any .40, or any pistol at all? I think this is a huge red herring.

^^^Exactly. You would think someone with his experience in the training world could show us a few examples of these .40s that had to be put out to pasture.

I'll be happy to give them a good home.

SCmasterblaster
11-02-2012, 13:33
^^^Exactly. You would think someone with his experience in the training world could show us a few examples of these .40s that had to be put out to pasture.

I'll be happy to give them a good home.

My G17 is 24 years old. It is still going strong with a new frame and barrel. :supergrin:

digilo
11-02-2012, 14:03
My 23 is a '97 vintage, and runs fine. Shoots cloverleafs if I do my part.

glockfan2327
11-02-2012, 16:26
Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

English
he said 3000 students last year , not last month ....
How many ppl did you trained??

SCmasterblaster
11-03-2012, 11:40
My 23 is a '97 vintage, and runs fine. Shoots cloverleafs if I do my part.

I am having a hard time choosing! :cool:

gatorboy
11-06-2012, 13:13
Has anyone here ever worn out a .40 Glock, or any .40, or any pistol at all? I think this is a huge red herring.

180's are docile in .40! The HST 180 is IMO, the best bang for your buck when considering price, recoil, performance and ease of attaining. It is what I would suggest my mother, daughter and wife to use. I like them also but prefer 155-165 GD's which admittedly take more practice and strength because they are a bit 'poppy' I guess you could say. ANYONE without physical limitations could learn to be sufficient enough with the .40 to make the jump to higher (though I agree, slight) performance than the 9mm worth it.

9mm is fine, I believe it. .40 is better and I believe that also.

gatorboy
11-06-2012, 13:20
And those 200+P GD's recoil harder than any .40 load. Using the M&P 45C as a comparison to the G23 with G-A 155 GD's @ 1,300. The M&P is quite a bit heavier also. I like them though, a good (the best) 200 gr. .45 bullet IMO.

digilo
11-06-2012, 13:39
180's are docile in .40! The HST 180 is IMO, the best bang for your buck when considering price, recoil, performance and ease of attaining. It is what I would suggest my mother, daughter and wife to use. I like them also but prefer 155-165 GD's which admittedly take more practice and strength because they are a bit 'poppy' I guess you could say. ANYONE without physical limitations could learn to be sufficient enough with the .40 to make the jump to higher (though I agree, slight) performance than the 9mm worth it.

9mm is fine, I believe it. .40 is better and I believe that also.

I moved up from 9mm not to cut a bigger hole with the increased diameter so much as to be able to launch heavier projectiles. If I could have found a G21 when I was looking, instead of the G23 I did find, I'd be shooting .45 instead, a 230 gr bullet ( I keep the 23 loaded with 180 gr HP). My reasoning is, use as much mass as possible to punch through bone- ribs, sternum, etc. - using a hollow-point bullet to try to prevent the bullet from exiting the BG and injuring a bystander.

gatorboy
11-06-2012, 14:21
^ Sound reasoning for the switch. My favorite 180's are HST and GS Bonded for a bonded bullet.

14 180's weigh two oz. less than 14 230's. G4 23 is about an oz. less than G4 21 (just weighed both unloaded, no mags). 23 is about 5/8" shorter slide and 1/2 shorter grip. I think you did well there also.

Most 180's penetrate better than most 230's, especially through barriers. Takes a +P to get the velocity close to a 180 and that would be from a 5" barrel. Sectional Density is almost identical with the 180 @ .160 and the 230 @ .162

The 180 and 230 HST are hard to decypher when fully expanded through naked water jugs looking from the top. From the side and back they're more easliy distinguished when side by side.

digilo
11-06-2012, 15:18
@gator- I use the Q4369 Winchester White box 180 gr JHP ammo- it's the same bullet, same velocity, as the 180 gr PDX1- the Q4369 is loaded in brass cases, PDX1 in nickel-coated brass.

I run an odd trigger combo too. I use the 8 lb connector it came with (old police trade-in) with a 6 lb trigger spring. I shoot just fine with it; I ordered and tried a stock, 5 lb connector, and tried the stock spring too, but went back to the + connector and 6 lb spring. I read that the most popular combo is the exact opposite- 3.5 lb conn with NY1 spring. I haven't tried that combo. The gun is for HD, and I like the fact that it's not going off without a deliberate pull of the trigger.

I go to the range early sometimes, to have the pistol range to myself, to practice point shooting, left hand shooting, etc. I had the 23 in my left hand with the 5 lb conn/5 lb spring in it, and was thinking about my next shot, when it went off with next to no conscious input from me- I had tightened my grip in anticipation of the next shot, and milked it. It was probably just part of getting the left-hand used to shooting, but it didn't happen with the + conn, so that went back in. Next range trip, no problems. I figured, if it could happen at the range, admittedly with my left hand (I'm a righty), then it could happen under stress, with my dominant right hand, even though I spend considerable time at the range (since I bought my first in '94, a police trade-in 686).

Roering
11-06-2012, 15:32
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course

And yet, he still can't manage to handle the .40! I guess it's those small hands or something. :tongueout:

The short man's disease is strong with this one.

GlocksterPaulie
11-06-2012, 15:55
With all those certifications you would think he would know when a parking brake is engaged on a vehicle. Just goes to show you can have countless numbers of certs to hang on the wall but when the SHTF your mind and Murphy's law will still **** with you.

Paulie

SCmasterblaster
11-07-2012, 10:57
With all those certifications you would think he would know when a parking brake is engaged on a vehicle. Just goes to show you can have countless numbers of certs to hang on the wall but when the SHTF your mind and Murphy's law will still **** with you.

Paulie

Murphy's Law sxxcks!

English
11-07-2012, 14:07
With all those certifications you would think he would know when a parking brake is engaged on a vehicle. Just goes to show you can have countless numbers of certs to hang on the wall but when the SHTF your mind and Murphy's law will still **** with you.

Paulie

I might be mistaken, because my eyes got tired reading through the list, but I don't think there was a single qualification for parking brake releasing.

English

SCmasterblaster
11-07-2012, 16:07
I might be mistaken, because my eyes got tired reading through the list, but I don't think there was a single qualification for parking brake releasing.

English

His list of qualifications covers a lot of stuff, and those are just the formal classes. How much did he learn from casual visits to civilian shooting ranges?

Police Marksman
11-07-2012, 21:31
Here is why Rob Pincus prefers the 9mm over the 40S&W.

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article002168437.cfm?x=bk1b43S,bbSbHJ7K

bdcremer
11-07-2012, 23:15
When did Col. Jeff Coopers advice and wisdom no longer become relevant? The man that pioneered the very body of knowledge that many of these uber-operators try to pass as their own.




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

SCmasterblaster
11-08-2012, 07:06
180's are docile in .40! The HST 180 is IMO, the best bang for your buck when considering price, recoil, performance and ease of attaining. It is what I would suggest my mother, daughter and wife to use. I like them also but prefer 155-165 GD's which admittedly take more practice and strength because they are a bit 'poppy' I guess you could say. ANYONE without physical limitations could learn to be sufficient enough with the .40 to make the jump to higher (though I agree, slight) performance than the 9mm worth it.

9mm is fine, I believe it. .40 is better and I believe that also.

I'll be getting a G22 soon. :cool:

digilo
11-08-2012, 08:40
When did Col. Jeff Coopers advice and wisdom no longer become relevant? The man that pioneered the very body of knowledge that many of these uber-operators try to pass as their own.


Young whippersnappers! He forgot more'n they ever will learn!

:rofl:

Fortunately, astronomy did not stop developing with Copernicus' work, either.

clarkz71
11-09-2012, 09:44
The .40 is "hard to control" is bull. Unless all you've
shot is 9mm.

Over the years I've shot 44 mag and 357 mag so much
that when I got to the .40 I had no problem with recoil.

It's all about practice & training in any case.

A new shooter should start with the 9mm though.

Police Marksman
11-09-2012, 11:19
The Glock you shoot the best is the best!

clarkz71
11-09-2012, 11:21
The Glock you shoot the best is the best!

Very true.

ScottieG59
11-11-2012, 02:05
I fell upon this posting as I searched for opinions on the Glock 19.

This is an interesting collision of egos, experience and bravado.

I know Mr. Yaeger is more than a little partial to the Glock 19 and I know the video of the ambush has many people putting forth all sorts of opinions.

There is a big difference between soldiers and civilians in war zones. When I was a soldier, I trained with the equipment and the people with whom I deployed. Most of our vehicles were equipped with machine gun turrets, loaded and manned. Of course, one of the things we trained for was responding to ambushes.

I think Mr. Yaeger failed to get the vehicle to move because he put it in neutral and forgot it was a manual transmission. This made it look like the transmission was damaged during the incoming gunfire. Basically, he did not know the vehicle well enough to react instinctively.

My cars at home are all different: My truck is an automatic with the shifter on the column, my car is a manual and my wife's truck is an automatic with the shifter in the center console. In my truck, I often reach for the shifter and work the non-existent clutch to downshift coming into a turn. In my wife's truck, the kids laugh at I keep reaching for the non-extent column shifter. I can imagine messing this up in an unfamiliar car in a gunfight. It goes back to the train as you fight idea.

I can tell you from my experience, receiving incoming rounds is one thing and being the actual target is another. A bunch of guys in a civilian car are not going to do very well. It may not be easy to get out of a kill zone and there is no real cover. An RPG would really mess up one of the subcompact tin cans.

Anyway, for some time I have heard the arguments about handgun caliber. The objective the ammo manufacturers go for in premium ammo is the level of good enough. I believe the FBI has defined the standards of good enough. Since 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 SIG and 45 ACP may be built to the same performance standard, many assume they are all the same and this tilts things in favor of the 9mm, since you get to carry more ammo and the time between shots is shorter (all other things being equal).

The assumption is that civilians will likely not shoot through car doors and windshields. That may be the case.

My leanings is toward larger and more powerful handguns. My defense handgun is a Glock 20 and my normal concealed carry is a Glock 27. Each of the handguns also have conversion barrels, 40 S&W for the G20 and 9mm for the G27. The G20 makes the 40 S&W feel very mild.

So, here is where there can be a couple issues.

If I am traveling and seek to purchase ammo, I may have problems finding 40 S&W or 10mm. I will likely be able to find 9mm anywhere I travel in the US.

The other issue deals with what I can do if premium defense ammo is hard to find. Even though Mas Ayoob tends to go with the experience police have with specific ammo, he recognizes that the bigger round is better if the premium stuff is unavailable.

So, though I like to see how people argue the merits of something that is near impossible to quantify, I am becoming closer to considering a Glock 19 as my concealed carry gun.

Bodyarmorguy
11-11-2012, 02:34
Yaeger must be good...Tex Grebner trains with him.
Tactical Response Fighting Pistol - YouTube

TheJ
11-11-2012, 06:45
Yaeger must be good...Tex Grebner trains with him.

:rofl:

uz2bUSMC
11-11-2012, 07:28
Is it wrong that all I could do was laugh when I watched Tactical Tex? The guy means well but I couldn't help myself.

blastfact
11-11-2012, 17:09
Yep the .40 Smith Sucks. If your going to shoot a .40,,, make it a 10mm. And make it count!

SARDUDE
11-11-2012, 17:13
Yep the .40 Smith Sucks. If your going to shoot a .40,,, make it a 10mm. And make it count!


I like! :D

SARDUDE
11-11-2012, 17:18
Mobile Double Tap

jeremy1
11-12-2012, 20:11
His video is a strong opinion and nothing more. I find them entertaining regardless of his background. Do I agree with him? Heck no!

A friend of mine took a basic pistol course that he ran and picked up some great information. Although he did push Glock 9mm's pretty hard. Personally, I find very little difference in recoil between a 9mm and most full size 40's. I would take either into a fight with confidence so long as I had good expanding ammunition.

jeremy1
11-12-2012, 20:36
Tex is such a mall ninja! It is quite funny to watch

4949shooter
11-12-2012, 21:36
So....in the second video all I can hear aside from the gunfire are European accents. Which vehicle was Yaeger in? The one with the camera?

Edit: The .40 S&W is a fine round, and has dropped a helluva lot of bad guys. If you don't like it don't shoot it. Fair enough?

Travclem
11-13-2012, 05:49
Yaeger must be good...Tex Grebner trains with him.
Tactical Response Fighting Pistol - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN3XLyP2W4)
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

clarkz71
11-13-2012, 08:15
Yaeger must be good...Tex Grebner trains with him.
Tactical Response Fighting Pistol - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN3XLyP2W4)


I don't know what that was, but it was far from tactical.

Looked like Al Bundy taking a course.

Travclem
11-13-2012, 08:33
I don't know what that was, but it was far from tactical.

Looked like Al Bundy taking a course.
My keyboard is now drenched in coffee.:rofl:

clarkz71
11-13-2012, 08:37
My keyboard is now drenched in coffee.:rofl: :winkie:

It was the 1st thing I thought of watching the vid.

Travclem
11-13-2012, 08:52
:winkie:

It was the 1st thing I thought of watching the vid.
It's true, he moves like a walrus on the beach.

SCmasterblaster
11-14-2012, 08:25
Yep the .40 Smith Sucks. If your going to shoot a .40,,, make it a 10mm. And make it count!

This makes me rethink getting a .40.

reelnative
11-14-2012, 15:16
This makes me rethink getting a .40.


or if you want a real gun get a 45

SCmasterblaster
11-14-2012, 15:33
or if you want a real gun get a 45

I have a .45, a Springfield Armory M1911A1. It outweighs my G17 by a big 20 ounces, and it has 9 less shots. My G17 shoots loads that are at least equal to .45 ACP hardball, and I have 17 of them in the gun. My carry load in the G17 is a +p+ 115gr JHP at 1400 FPS.

lowflyer
01-21-2013, 22:30
I shoot 9, 40, and 45. I prefer 40 because I like its versatility and availability during runs on ammo. In my area, 9mm goes like .223, while there is still lots of 40.

9mm +p+
01-22-2013, 02:22
Just another loud mouthed D-bag that thinks he has all the answers, I wish people would quit posting this clowns BS. The history of the 40 is NOT what this asshat says it is, Paul Liebenberg of team S&W had been shooting the centimeter or daddy of the 40 for most of the 80's. Get your facts straight before you get online and run your mouth. "Let's compare resumes" Really...

Cwlongshot
01-22-2013, 05:14
Just another loud mouthed D-bag that thinks he has all the answers, I wish people would quit posting this clowns BS. The history of the 40 is NOT what this asshat says it is, Paul Liebenberg of team S&W had been shooting the centimeter or daddy of the 40 for most of the 80's. Get your facts straight before you get online and run your mouth. "Let's compare resumes" Really...

Yup.... agreed.

He brings to mind a comment about idiots... "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" :supergrin: :upeyes:

I agree. I also agree that he simply is making attempting to make a name for himself. Trouble as I see it, is the name he is earning from people in the ''know'' is Idiot. (Or ass hat, I always liked that term..)

CW

Southswede
01-22-2013, 21:27
Edit: The .40 S&W is a fine round, and has dropped a helluva lot of bad guys. If you don't like it don't shoot it. Fair enough?

Stop with the common sense, will ya?
:supergrin:

Southswede
01-22-2013, 21:36
We all have limitations. It is good to know what these limitations are. It seems Yeager knows his. What's the problem?

rustytxrx
01-22-2013, 21:59
scottieG59 is correct. you can get a pistol that shoots the ammo you slected well. This is a big pistol by most standards. Sig 229, stainless frame, stainless slide, 44 0z, compensator (weight). It handles the recoil of the .357 Sig 125 gr bullet with no issues. The pistol is (-edit just weighed my 10mm it is 3 oz) heavier than my s&w 1006 10mm.

It is not exactly like shooting a G34 with 9mm rabbit poot loads but I took it to the gravel pit to shoot some IDPA targets (pistol is not IDPA legal). My split time were good for me. One big thing was the grip fit my hand like it was designed for it.

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o727/rustytxrx/sig229s1_zps97150354.jpg

rustytxrx
01-22-2013, 22:05
The pistol is a set. It has a 40 cal barrel and stainless slide with it.

it will handle the 40 cal without a problem and I don't think either round is going to beat this pistol up enough in my life time to worry me.

dkf
01-22-2013, 22:10
Just another loud mouthed D-bag that thinks he has all the answers, I wish people would quit posting this clowns BS. The history of the 40 is NOT what this asshat says it is, Paul Liebenberg of team S&W had been shooting the centimeter or daddy of the 40 for most of the 80's. Get your facts straight before you get online and run your mouth. "Let's compare resumes" Really...

His mouth got the better of him. Due to his comments on his Youtube channel he made the news and lost his carry permit in the process. Makes me laugh.:supergrin:

Now he can't legally CCW his lovely 9mm.:rofl:

lowflyer
01-22-2013, 22:25
We all have limitations. It is good to know what these limitations are. It seems Yeager knows his. What's the problem?

I am not a psychologist, but I'd say the man is dealing rather poorly with his PTSD and may be overcompensating for his shortcomings with embellishment of his credentials, possibly as a means of dealing with some survivor's guilt. :whistling:

I've seen several videos now in which he refers to his resume in response to criticism. A credible and truly accomplished person need not refer to his resume to back up his opinion or respond to criticism.

G26S239
01-22-2013, 22:39
scottieG59 is correct. you can get a pistol that shoots the ammo you slected well. This is a big pistol by most standards. Sig 229, stainless frame, stainless slide, 44 0z, compensator (weight). It handles the recoil of the .357 Sig 125 gr bullet with no issues. The pistol is 2 oz heavier than my s&w 1006 10mm.

It is not exactly like shooting a G34 with 9mm rabbit poot loads but I took it to the gravel pit to shoot some IDPA targets (pistol is not IDPA legal). My split time were good for me. One big thing was the grip fit my hand like it was designed for it.

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o727/rustytxrx/sig229s1_zps97150354.jpg
I remember when that ^^^ model was introduced. It is beautiful! I have the grunt grade P229R 40/357 shown here with the P229 9mm Tutone. :wavey:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2yvjhjs.jpg

WinterWizard
01-22-2013, 22:46
His mouth got the better of him. Due to his comments on his Youtube channel he made the news and lost his carry permit in the process. Makes me laugh.:supergrin:

Now he can't legally CCW his lovely 9mm.:rofl:

Yep. Guy is straight up liar, too. He made a video called "Unbanned" earlier in the month, explaining how he has unblocked all blocked users on his YouTube channel. He also explains in that video that he will not be even reading the comments and he doesn't care what people post, even if it's obscene, etc...

Well, I posted on one of his videos, disagreeing with some other commenter. I was promptly blocked. Ha ha ha! So he not only lied about the blocking, but he's obviously reading the comments, too. Double lie.

Guy is a serious d-bag piece of garbage. He's failed at every career he's attempted (fired from law enforcement, failed contractor, terrible instructor). This guy sucks. Who gives a crap about anything he has to say?

DonD
01-22-2013, 22:48
I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps.

You must be one of those guys who knows more than the ammo or powder companies and says his handloads work just fine.

You can't do what you say with acceptable pressures. Hodgdon says max with a 4" barrel is:
135gr/1434 fps/31,900 psi
155gr/1283 fps/31,900 psi

The 165 gr number you quote is really out of line.

Loads like that are another reason people shouldn't shoot others reloads. Accelerated gun wear or possibly worse. Don

Southswede
01-22-2013, 23:35
I am not a psychologist, but I'd say the man is dealing rather poorly with his PTSD and may be overcompensating for his shortcomings with embellishment of his credentials, possibly as a means of dealing with some survivor's guilt. :whistling:

I've seen several videos now in which he refers to his resume in response to criticism. A credible and truly accomplished person need not refer to his resume to back up his opinion or respond to criticism.

And the defenders of truth, justice and the Yeager way are conspicuous with their absenteeism now aren't they?

SDGlock23
01-23-2013, 08:38
You must be one of those guys who knows more than the ammo or powder companies and says his handloads work just fine.

You can't do what you say with acceptable pressures. Hodgdon says max with a 4" barrel is:
135gr/1434 fps/31,900 psi
155gr/1283 fps/31,900 psi

The 165 gr number you quote is really out of line.

Loads like that are another reason people shouldn't shoot others reloads. Accelerated gun wear or possibly worse. Don

Quite incorrect, not all powders are created the same. I don't offer my loads for others to shoot, but have worked them up in my gun. Throw in a 6" KKM barrel and the fact that the .40 case is at least as strong as the 40K PSI rated 357 Sig, then now you have something.

I should update my numbers though, with the right powder my 6" .40 will average a 135gr Nosler at 1,849 fps, a 155gr JHP @ 1,554 fps, 165gr Gold Dot @ 1,485 fps, 180gr JHP @ 1,402 fps and 200gr XTP @ 1,230 fps.


The G35 I use (22lb recoil spring with heavy loads) hasn't shown signs of wear yet. Besides, I don't shoot full power .40 all the time, just when I want to. Most of the .40 I shoot is light stuff for plinking. But the versatility of the cartridge is readily apparent.

lowflyer
01-23-2013, 09:36
You must be one of those guys who knows more than the ammo or powder companies and says his handloads work just fine.

You can't do what you say with acceptable pressures. Hodgdon says max with a 4" barrel is:
135gr/1434 fps/31,900 psi
155gr/1283 fps/31,900 psi

The 165 gr number you quote is really out of line.

Loads like that are another reason people shouldn't shoot others reloads. Accelerated gun wear or possibly worse. Don

I formerly made a living at one of these companies developing those numbers and can attest that they are conservative guidelines. I can't speak for Hodgdon. However, in my experience, loading guide numbers were designed to keep the handloading individual out of trouble, taking into account the known variability in the performance of the powder and components. Exceeding the max values is done at your own risk, but that does not mean exceeding them will automatically cause harm. It just means the powder company defined boundaries in the performance envelope within which it would accept some liability risk.

Nobody should ever let another person shoot their reloads in any gun for any reason. It just isn't smart. :upeyes:

English
01-23-2013, 10:13
One of the things we hear again and again without substantiation is that higher power rounds accelerate gun wear. With high pressure high velocity rifles the rifling burns out in front of the chamber but that does not apply to handguns and Glocks in particular.

I can accept that greater bullet momentum will increase the load on the bearing surface between the barrel lug and the locking block, and since the locking block is almost certainly a poorer quality material than the barrel, I can accept that eventually it might need to be changed, but that is cheap enough.

Does anyone have any other ideas about what is likely to wear out to an extent which impacts the serviceable life of the pistol and is not easily and cheaply replaced? Even more, does anyone have any real information about extra wear taking place with 357SIG and .40S&W relative to 9mm?

English

Tiro Fijo
01-23-2013, 11:41
One of the things we hear again and again without substantiation is that higher power rounds accelerate gun wear. With high pressure high velocity rifles the rifling burns out in front of the chamber but that does not apply to handguns and Glocks in particular.

I can accept that greater bullet momentum will increase the load on the bearing surface between the barrel lug and the locking block, and since the locking block is almost certainly a poorer quality material than the barrel, I can accept that eventually it might need to be changed, but that is cheap enough.

Does anyone have any other ideas about what is likely to wear out to an extent which impacts the serviceable life of the pistol and is not easily and cheaply replaced? Even more, does anyone have any real information about extra wear taking place with 357SIG and .40S&W relative to 9mm?

English


I have seen some SIG barrel lugs break off and one Glock 23 lug. The Border Patrol had some problems with the Beretta 96 in .40 S&W that was at first thought to be the hot Rem. 155 gr. HP they used, however later many believed it was the frame of said gun lacking proper radii. I have seen some Glock locking block pins break on G22/23's as well.

BBMW
01-23-2013, 15:00
Picking on one line in a long post, but....

Where in the US do you have trouble getting .40? This is now the dominent LE round in this country and is very widely available (here. Out of the country is another subject.)

In point of fact, with the panic horde buying that happens occasionally, .40 tends to be available when 9mm gets bought out.

If I am traveling and seek to purchase ammo, I may have problems finding 40 S&W or 10mm. I will likely be able to find 9mm anywhere I travel in the US.

lowflyer
01-23-2013, 15:04
Picking on one line in a long post, but....

Where in the US do you have trouble getting .40? This is now the dominent LE round in this country and is very widely available (here. Out of the country is another subject.)

In point of fact, with the panic horde buying that happens occasionally, .40 tends to be available when 9mm gets bought out.

That has been my experience as well. My local range has plenty of .40, but has been out of 9mm for weeks.

Glockbuster
01-23-2013, 16:47
I dont know why some insist in training people to shoot while walking back. To me it has to be one of the most stupid things, walking into unknown territory.

English
01-24-2013, 06:57
I dont know why some insist in training people to shoot while walking back. To me it has to be one of the most stupid things, walking into unknown territory.

I entirely agree, but isn't this in the wrong thread?

English

Glockbuster
01-24-2013, 09:42
I entirely agree, but isn't this in the wrong thread?

English

Hello English, I forgot to make reference to the poor training tactics in the video in post #127. You will now be able to connect.

And I might as well take the opportunity to congratulate you for your valuable contributions here in GT.:wavey:

SCmasterblaster
01-24-2013, 18:55
I guess that there are a lot more 9mm owners out there compared to .40 S&W owners.

English
01-25-2013, 09:26
Hello English, I forgot to make reference to the poor training tactics in the video in post #127. You will now be able to connect.

And I might as well take the opportunity to congratulate you for your valuable contributions here in GT.:wavey:

Hello Glockbuster,
Thank you for that.

I have just watched the video and the walking backwards wasn't the only thing that made me cringe!

English

uz2bUSMC
01-25-2013, 11:26
I dont know why some insist in training people to shoot while walking back. To me it has to be one of the most stupid things, walking into unknown territory.

So, you can not see any scenario where you would need to fire while moving backwards?

English
01-25-2013, 13:09
So, you can not see any scenario where you would need to fire while moving backwards?

The idea behind walking backwards is to do it slowly and smoothly so that you can use the sights effectively and make good shots as you walk. One of the other things in the video is doing the same thing walking forwards.

The problem with doing both things is that your movement does not change the aiming process of you opponent, and he is stationary and so better able to aim and shoot than you are and your opponent might well be behind some kind of cover. This is a kind of mutual suicide pact with the odds more against you than for you. Moving backwards has the added disadvantage that you are in danger of falling over or bumping into something. Either thing makes your situation worse because it disrupts your firing process.

If you are being fired on your first tactic should be to make yourself a difficult target. You do this by moving rapidly across his aim and changing direction rapidly so that he can't get used to the lead he needs. Depending on circumstances, this sideways running motion can be angled forward or backward to get to cover or to flank his position. At close quarters you can run past him at an angle and curve round behind him. You have the advantage in this situation of knowing what you are about to do before you do it. He is always trying to catch up.

What moving rapidly means here is running and changing direction at full acceleration. The only way to do that without falling over is by running forward. Moving fast sideways or backwards just does not work!

If you can point shoot with one hand you can get off quite effective fire at the same time as running, depending on distance. At close range this has the great advantage that you can fire round the clock relative to your body orientation.

English

lowflyer
01-25-2013, 13:22
To tie this back into the topic, learn to shoot a .40, and you will never be forced to walk backwards. :-)

uz2bUSMC
01-25-2013, 16:20
The idea behind walking back wards is to do it slowly and smoothly so that you can use the sights effectively and make good shots as you walk. One of the other things in the video is doing the same thing walking forwards.

The problem with doing both things is that your movement does not change the aiming process of you opponent, and he is stationary and so better able to aim and shoot than you are and your opponent might well be behind some kind of cover. This is a kind of mutual suicide pact with the odds more against you than for you. Moving backwards has the added disadvantage that you are in danger of falling over or bumping into something. Either thing makes your situation worse because it disrupts your firing process.

The point of moving backwards wouldn't just simply be a preference, it would have to be because of a distinct reason. In general, I would move forward at an angle if all things were equal. If there was cover just a few steps behind me I would chose that over forward or lateral movement without the possibility of cover.

If you are being fired on your first tactic should be to make yourself a difficult target. You do this by moving rapidly across his aim and changing direction rapidly so that he can't get used to the lead he needs. Depending on circumstances, this sideways running motion can be angled forward or backward to get to cover or to flank his position. At close quarters you can run past him at an angle and curve round behind him. You have the advantage in this situation of knowing what you are about to do before you do it. He is always trying to catch up.

I can't say that I just openly agree with this. Yes, you want to be a fast moving target. Yes, you want to make it as difficult for him to hit you as possible. But knowing how well you tend to think things through I would guess that the above was loosely stated. I single bag guy only has a flank and a rear at face value since he will be trying to turn to shoot you. Although I see your point and you have the advantage since you are initiating the movement...you still have to cover a distance he only has to pivot. There is also the factor that your terrain may dictate what you actually can do. You wouldn't want to move into traffic if you were on the roadside and innocent people in your area may (should) dictate where you move for your engagement. Also, I would prefer to get inside his OODA with bullets and movement, not just movement alone.

What moving rapidly means here is running and changing direction at full acceleration. The only way to do that without falling over is by running forward. Moving fast sideways or back wards just does not work!

Again, what movement is feasible may be controlled by the surroundings. A few steps rearward may be preferable if you gain cover in contrast to moving quickly forward to no cover at all...especially if the BG has cover.

If you can point shoot with one hand you can get off quite effective fire at the same time as running, depending on distance. At close range this has the great advantage that you can fire round the clock relative to your body orientation.

English

Just to clarify I should say that I'm not comparing forward vs back or lateral movement compared to rearward movement simply as a preference.

Bluescot
01-25-2013, 16:31
What would be interesting to hear from would be the docs or emts that have treated gun shot wounds and listened to what they have to say.

One of our sons did a surgical residency in a Cleveland Ohio hospital emergency room. They saw a lot of gunshot wounds there.....surprise, Huh?

Since our family has hunted, camped and fished a lot when we were raising our sons I asked him what he learned about gunshot wounds from pistols while there.

He said all gunshot wounds have the potential to be fatal. Having said that he went on to say that a .22lr is a low probability of death. He said he treated a guy that was shot once in the chest and twice in the back. Got him coming and then going. He survived but a few more inches of penetration could have been fatal.

He summarized his limited experience up with maybe a 9mm but if you want to get it done quickly a .40 or a 45ACP is the way to go. He said in one month there he saw 35 gunshot patients.

What is the experience from the medical guys?

michael_b
01-25-2013, 16:37
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

:rofl:

Lmao ... Your first post was interesting as well :)


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

4949shooter
01-25-2013, 17:31
The idea behind walking backwards is to do it slowly and smoothly so that you can use the sights effectively and make good shots as you walk. One of the other things in the video is doing the same thing walking forwards.

The problem with doing both things is that your movement does not change the aiming process of you opponent, and he is stationary and so better able to aim and shoot than you are and your opponent might well be behind some kind of cover. This is a kind of mutual suicide pact with the odds more against you than for you. Moving backwards has the added disadvantage that you are in danger of falling over or bumping into something. Either thing makes your situation worse because it disrupts your firing process.

If you are being fired on your first tactic should be to make yourself a difficult target. You do this by moving rapidly across his aim and changing direction rapidly so that he can't get used to the lead he needs. Depending on circumstances, this sideways running motion can be angled forward or backward to get to cover or to flank his position. At close quarters you can run past him at an angle and curve round behind him. You have the advantage in this situation of knowing what you are about to do before you do it. He is always trying to catch up.

What moving rapidly means here is running and changing direction at full acceleration. The only way to do that without falling over is by running forward. Moving fast sideways or backwards just does not work!

If you can point shoot with one hand you can get off quite effective fire at the same time as running, depending on distance. At close range this has the great advantage that you can fire round the clock relative to your body orientation.

English

We are trained to press forward in order to achieve a lawful objective. We aren't trained to move backwards. That having been said we ARE trained to seek cover, so if I had to back pedal a step or two in order to reach it I might think about it. Bur honestly, by that time I should have emptied a mag or two.

rustytxrx
01-25-2013, 19:45
It has taken me a lot of practice to learn to shoot moving lateraly. I am a righty. moving right seems like and different universe than moving left. very hard skill to learn.

concretefuzzynuts
01-25-2013, 21:05
Thread resurrection.

I've noticed there's been no mention of the fact that the .40 S&W is choice of law enforcement all over the US. There must be a reason other than lobbying. :dunno:

Also, I've been carrying .40 since 1994. In Glock since 1999. None of my guns have fallen apart. :supergrin:

Glockbuster
01-26-2013, 11:01
So, you can not see any scenario where you would need to fire while moving backwards?

Im thinking your training is more military oriented than self defense for a citizen. But for self defense if you are going to move backwards in that fashion there are better choices. The danger behind you that you cannot see might be greater than that in front of you. English has pointed out the correct things. How can one possibly think you will gain anything by walking back so slowly at the price of accuracy in those precious seconds to make your shots count ? If I have to run Ill run fast and I will look at what Im stumbling upon, I can also fire and make noise at the threats.

Glockbuster
01-26-2013, 11:06
We are trained to press forward in order to achieve a lawful objective. We aren't trained to move backwards. That having been said we ARE trained to seek cover, so if I had to back pedal a step or two in order to reach it I might think about it. Bur honestly, by that time I should have emptied a mag or two.


Yes, but if you walk back as in the video, how will you know there is cover behind you ? The person in the video did not back pedal a step or two, he walked back quite a bit while firing with no knowledge what was behind him. I wonder how far away were his threats ? Do you think that is the best choice ?

Glockbuster
01-26-2013, 11:07
It has taken me a lot of practice to learn to shoot moving lateraly. I am a righty. moving right seems like and different universe than moving left. very hard skill to learn.

AHH!! now there is a great choice !!! Id pick moving left if my threat is right handed.

jakebrake
01-26-2013, 11:16
40 sucks.

yes, the 40 on my right hip is a real waste of powder.

and, unlike that moron yeager, i can carry a sucky .40 cal...which, i do.

SCmasterblaster
01-26-2013, 12:45
I am going to get a Glock Mdl 22 soon. At 5000 rounds per year, the gun should last me ten years. Noooo problem!

4949shooter
01-26-2013, 15:07
Yes, but if you walk back as in the video, how will you know there is cover behind you ? The person in the video did not back pedal a step or two, he walked back quite a bit while firing with no knowledge what was behind him. I wonder how far away were his threats ? Do you think that is the best choice ?

I could see myself taking a step back to get behind the door of my patrol car, or behind the trunk of the vehicle I had stopped, but that is it.
IMHO the best choice is to fight it out. Seek cover if you can, and keep fighting until the threat has ceased. Never give up. I don't plan on backpedaling. I can see the merits of it in a military situation though, where you and your squad may have to make a tactical retreat. For police scenerios I don't see the benefit.

uz2bUSMC
01-26-2013, 16:46
Im thinking your training is more military oriented than self defense for a citizen. But for self defense if you are going to move backwards in that fashion there are better choices. The danger behind you that you cannot see might be greater than that in front of you. English has pointed out the correct things. How can one possibly think you will gain anything by walking back so slowly at the price of accuracy in those precious seconds to make your shots count ? If I have to run Ill run fast and I will look at what Im stumbling upon, I can also fire and make noise at the threats.

Like I said above, if backwards is cover and every other direction is not...what is your option? Out of habit I will most likely press and move forward (at an angle) but that doesn't mean I shouldn't train with rearward movement. Even if you spend very little time training shooting while moving backwards, you should do it none the less to be familiar. Everyone can train for perfect world but you may find the need to back up a bit while sending some rounds. And no, my training is not all military based.

ElectricZombie
01-26-2013, 17:27
His classes.

Photographer on the firing line - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvdB9P_5Zp0&feature=share&list=PL550A635BC669095C)

Wow! :shocked:

Glockbuster
01-26-2013, 18:12
Like I said above, if backwards is cover and every other direction is not...what is your option? Out of habit I will most likely press and move forward (at an angle) but that doesn't mean I shouldn't train with rearward movement. Even if you spend very little time training shooting while moving backwards, you should do it none the less to be familiar. Everyone can train for perfect world but you may find the need to back up a bit while sending some rounds. And no, my training is not all military based.


Fair enough UZ2, I have to admit doing some very brief backpedaling while shooting IPSC close targets in some stages, strictly to save time and knowing full ahead what was behind me.

But, in my advanced self defense training that type of action is almost a taboo, and I consider my instructors to be very good.

4949shooter
01-27-2013, 06:03
Wow! :shocked:

That is utterly ridiculous and unsafe.

I can't believe anyone could have allowed that.