Reloading for friends [Archive] - Glock Talk

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njl
10-30-2012, 20:07
I've been asked a couple times in the past by friends (once by a complete stranger at the Wal-Mart ammo counter) if I'd sell them my reloads. I've always refused either saying I don't have the time, don't have the right tools/components for their caliber, etc. I've done a bit of googling, and my understanding is, it's actually a Federal felony to do so without the proper FFL, not to mention the liability aspect.

But, supposing I wanted to help someone out with some better than factory ammo at half the cost...could I sell them primers and bullets by the 100, trade out their brass, and instruct them in the use of my press? i.e. They'd compensate me for using my components if they didn't bring their own, and after some instruction, they'd be the one pulling the handle making their ammo? Ideally, they'd eventually get hooked, find a deal on a press, and be reloading on their own.

F106 Fan
10-30-2012, 22:27
I would never sell my reloads nor would I allow a non-family member to use them. Heck, I get nervous even with those conditions.

I certainly wouldn't sell components. Somehow I have to believe there are restrictions on selling powder and primers. Selling bullets may not be a big deal but I don't know that.

What I might do is show somebody how to use my press and have them bring their own supplies. I would watch them like a hawk to be certain their reloads are safe. Even then, I would worry every day until they were all used up.

I'm old, I have CDO (like OCD but the letters are in alphabetic order LIKE THEY SHOULD BE) and I just don't want the responsibility or liability. One minor screwup and my 401k's belong to someone else.

For what? So I can show off? If somebody wants to get into reloading, buy a book.

Richard

freakshow10mm
10-30-2012, 22:40
Yes, to load ammunition for someone else and be compensated for it means you must abide by the GCA of 1968 and become an 06 FFL. You must also register with the US State Dept under ITAR as a manufacturer of defensive articles, just for being a manufacturer of ammunition.

Restrictions on selling powder and primers are just state or local laws. In my area we have none. Federal law is silent as long as you aren't making and selling your own.

Selling bullets is fine as long as they aren't ones you manufactured; if so then you'll need an 06 FFL and register for ITAR.

What I do in my off time that I'm not loading for customers, is rent out press time. Customers bring their own components or buy them from me, load their own ammunition, and pay me a fee to cover use of the press. If they don't bring clean brass, they get charged for it to be tumbled. Do something like that you won't need an FFL.

emb111
10-31-2012, 06:17
No, No and No. From a slightly different prospective that's a lot of liability. I will reload and have for a friend and his wife. But he reloads too-just not pistol bullets. I will only do it if I have the pistol and am able to work it up for that firearm. You never know what some nimrod will do with your ammo, the firearm they are using, or its condition.

Also, I will not shoot anyone else's reloads unless I trust that person with my life and limb. And, I will not usually give out "recipes" for the same reason. It's a fallacy that a particular recipe will perform and function in the same manner even if the firearm is of the same make and model. So, there isn't much point in giving it out. The data is readily available elsewhere so why take on the liability if they hurt themselves using your recipe.

cajun_chooter
10-31-2012, 06:53
might as well sign a check and give it to whom ever you sell any of your reloads... because if they hurt themselves shooting .. you can be sure you will get a call from their lawyer ..

DoctaGlockta
10-31-2012, 08:49
Reloads for only myself or family.

Zombie Steve
10-31-2012, 09:28
Teach a man to fish, you feed him for life.


Just don't teach a man to cast boolits. There's no lead left. :whistling:

Colorado4Wheel
10-31-2012, 10:34
I don't see a issue with selling some primers and powder. It's no different then when 5 of us go in on a powder/primer order and then split it up. Just don't make a profit. I also see no issue with letting someone use my press to load after I teach them. I am going to be doing that for a lady friend over the next couple weeks. I don't expect to make money on any of it. I would never "rent" my press either. Just helping out a friend. I would do that for any number of people I know.

emb111
10-31-2012, 12:02
Selling for profit may make a difference from a licensing standpoint. It will make no difference in a personal injury case. The first thing a good and thorough attorney does is look for responsible folks, theories of recovery, and possible money sources.

I would be extremely relunctant to reload for others, allow them to use my equipment, or attempt to instruct them on how to safely reload their own ammo. No one is perfect. How many of us have made a bad round or two? One squib load in inexperienced hands could be a "kaboom".

For me the risk just isn't worth it. I have freely loaned out my "how to" videos and DVDs, reloading manuals and books and referred areas businesses who teach this skill. I know you are required to sign a release prior to taking the classes. That only makes sense.

njl
10-31-2012, 13:39
I think half of you need to go back to reading comprehension 101. I started out by saying I knew it was illegal to sell reloads (without the right FFL) and that there's liability issues with selling/giving reloads to anyone. I wasn't asking about doing that...I know it's a bad idea.

The question was could I sell supplies and give a friend some instruction and then give them time on my press? I'd read that you need an FFL to make and sell even just bullets, but I frequently see people advertising (mostly on the BE forum) to sell bullets [that they bought and no longer want], brass, primers, and powder. So my assumption was, it must be legal to resell reloading supplies (powder, primers, bullets, brass) without a license, and I don't see why I couldn't loan someone a reloading press...so is it any different if we save the trouble of unbolting and transporting it, and they use it at my place?

I suppose there's still the "liability" aspect in that if they screw up and blow off some fingers, they might hire an ambulance chaser who'd point out "none of this would have ever happened if not for so and so giving you poor instruction in reloading", but I hope I have sufficient taste in friends to avoid that being a serious issue.

Colorado4Wheel
10-31-2012, 14:28
The question was could I sell supplies and give a friend some instruction and then give them time on my press?

I don't think your selling bullets. You just bought them together and they are taking their portion. That is how I would describe it. :whistling: They are friends right?

Three-Five-Seven
10-31-2012, 14:59
A major part of the personal responsibility of owning and shooting firearms is selecting, or assembling the ammunition that will be used.

There is no way in hell that anybody should be in that loop except the individual gun owner and, or a reputable ammunition manufacturer.

F106 Fan
10-31-2012, 15:07
The question was could I sell supplies and give a friend some instruction and then give them time on my press?

I don't think it is a 'reading comprehension' issue.

You buy something, you sell something, you are a business. Simple as that. There may be some wiggle room if they are close friends but don't count on it.

I know that, in the case of boats, you can't even have your guests chip in for gas. The Coast Guard is all over that. They have the idea that you are running a charter and that requires licensing.

Back to the topic at hand: If you are a business, you have to get a license. Do you have any idea what the storage requirements are for the primers and powder? In some areas, like where I live, you can't run most kinds of businesses out of a residence. You can't run any business that requires 'stock in trade' out of a residence.

If you really want to be helpful, have your guests bring their own components. That gets you completely out of the 'business' end of the process. They can use your equipment and you can show them how to do the reloading. As long as you aren't charging for the time, there is no business going on.

But it's still a huge risk for absolutely NO reward! What? You get to show off a little? Not necessarily in a bad way but what's the point?

You asked for opinions and that's what you have gotten. My opinion is that this is an 'all risk, no reward' scenario. I wouldn't even consider it.

Richard

judgecrater
10-31-2012, 17:53
Even letting them use your equipment opens you up to huge liabilities.

shotgunred
10-31-2012, 22:06
I think some of you guys worry to much. I have no problem having someone over and teaching them to reload. I have no problem with helping someone setup their new equipment.

If you are really worried about it have them sign a liability release.

freakshow10mm
10-31-2012, 22:30
So my assumption was, it must be legal to resell reloading supplies (powder, primers, bullets, brass) without a license, and I don't see why I couldn't loan someone a reloading press...
Correct and correct.

so is it any different if we save the trouble of unbolting and transporting it, and they use it at my place?
Nope. No difference.

I suppose there's still the "liability" aspect in that if they screw up and blow off some fingers, they might hire an ambulance chaser who'd point out "none of this would have ever happened if not for so and so giving you poor instruction in reloading", but I hope I have sufficient taste in friends to avoid that being a serious issue.
It's really no different than a reloading manual stating they are not in control of components or process, therefore not liable. You as a seller of components have a very slight, but easily deniability of liability with the components. Your instruction is based on several manuals that in agreement with your process. The millions who follow the same don't have problems.


Back to the topic at hand: If you are a business, you have to get a license. Do you have any idea what the storage requirements are for the primers and powder? In some areas, like where I live, you can't run most kinds of businesses out of a residence. You can't run any business that requires 'stock in trade' out of a residence.
In areas like mine, there is no restriction on what business is run from a residence.

If you really want to be helpful, have your guests bring their own components. That gets you completely out of the 'business' end of the process. They can use your equipment and you can show them how to do the reloading. As long as you aren't charging for the time, there is no business going on.
Even if he does charge rent for press time, big deal. Pay your income taxes on the profit and sleep soundly.

But it's still a huge risk for absolutely NO reward! What? You get to show off a little? Not necessarily in a bad way but what's the point?
To make money.

Even letting them use your equipment opens you up to huge liabilities.
If I borrow my mechanic's torque wrench to secure the wheel on my vehicle, and it falls off, is my mechanic liable or is my stupid ass for not using the tool correctly?

Gpruitt54
11-01-2012, 19:50
I have a friend who has been asking me to make him some reloads. have not. I am concerned that my reloads are a legal liability for me, if one of those reloads hurts my friend of a stander by at the range.

Is this a valid concern?

F106 Fan
11-01-2012, 20:19
If I borrow my mechanic's torque wrench to secure the wheel on my vehicle, and it falls off, is my mechanic liable or is my stupid ass for not using the tool correctly?

It might be if he didn't provide training. And if he did provide training, it might have been inadequate. Who is to say the mechanic was qualified to be a trainer.

There are number of ways to chase this thing down a rabbit's hole.

Even if the case is garbage, defending it can be very expensive. That's why most civil suits are settled out of court.

Richard

F106 Fan
11-01-2012, 20:20
I have a friend who has been asking me to make him some reloads. have not. I am concerned that my reloads are a legal liability for me, if one of those reloads hurts my friend of a stander by at the range.

Is this a valid concern?

It would be for me...

But I live in the most litigious state in the union.

Richard.

plainsman
11-01-2012, 21:32
That's not even taking it into account that your perfect ammo might just blow up his gun, or even his Wiley Coyote gunsmith'd dremeled barrel.

There's no telling what gun your ammo will wind up in.

Colorado4Wheel
11-02-2012, 05:50
If your worried about liability, Photocopy the disclaimer and warnings section of the press manual. Make them initial and sign the last page. They have the manual and all the warnings the manufacture gives. You guys worry to much. What kind of friends do you have?

meleors
11-02-2012, 11:57
Personally, whenever I invite friends over for dinner, I have them sign release forms before handing them any utensils. Hey, they may cut themselves. Can't be too careful!
And I only serve them food that they brought over. I wouldn't dream of giving them any of my food. What if they got sick from it? Gotta protect myself! :whistling:

norton
11-02-2012, 12:23
Reloading for others is a bad idea.
BTW, release forms are about worth the paper they are written on.

Gpruitt54
11-02-2012, 13:38
I don't think it's as much about one friends, as it is about the law. What happens if someone gets hurt at the range. In a situation like this, its the other persons lawers how will come after you. Any gunshot related accident has to be reported. From there lawers are in volved.

I am going to read the fine print in my Glocks manuals and see if there is language about non-factory rounds. If so, there is your first issue if liability. If language warning about reloads is in the Glock manual, it is likely in the manuals for other guns. I'll bet this is enough to get you pulled into court.

In the words of Herman Cane "I don't have facts to back this up." I am just wondering if reloading for friends is worth the potential downside, if something goes wrong. S**t happens!

Colorado4Wheel
11-02-2012, 15:58
Personally, whenever I invite friends over for dinner, I have them sign release forms before handing them any utensils. Hey, they may cut themselves. Can't be too careful!
And I only serve them food that they brought over. I wouldn't dream of giving them any of my food. What if they got sick from it? Gotta protect myself! :whistling:

Good idea. ;)


Sadly I don't think people knew you were kidding.

SARDG
11-02-2012, 19:41
...I am going to read the fine print in my Glocks manuals and see if there is language about non-factory rounds...
There isn't. To paraphrase the manual, it says to shoot SAAMI or NATO rated ammo.

shotgunred
11-03-2012, 11:50
I have a friend who has been asking me to make him some reloads. have not. I am concerned that my reloads are a legal liability for me, if one of those reloads hurts my friend of a stander by at the range.

Is this a valid concern?

You are much to green to be handing out your reloads to anyone. Reload and shoot 5 to 10k of your reloads before you hand one out to someone.

PsychoKnight
11-04-2012, 05:17
A primer stack goes, the guest had momentarily put down the safety glasses to get a better look at what's going on with the jam, as they push/pull on the handle, shove a screw driver here and there, and BAM.

Your friends may not be the sue happy type, but their eyeballs are worth money, accidents happen, and people want money. They can't sue your homeowner's insurance directly, they have to sue you personally in order to get to your insurance coverage. The friend may be a great person, but that's what insurance is for, and that's what friend's lawyers are for. Don't take it personally, its just "business."

The whole purpose of allowing access to your press is to encourage them to buy a press and become a reloader. The financial savings of $15 to come over and waste and hour or more of your time means no one is really saving money. Its like 5 supervisors in orange vests standing over one guy watching guy dig a hole on the side of the freeway - resources used inefficiently. Would you really train a friend and say, "sure come over and load anytime you like"? Its a one-time shot - I train you so you can see if you if its for you, then you go and get your own stuff. Down the road, I am avail on the phone, maybe I'll come over if it just don't work right, and there's always GTR. I would say my time, my home, my peace of mind is valuable to me.

meleors
11-04-2012, 06:48
Gosh, on a regular basis I have friends and family who come over so I can help them work on their cars. Why? Because I have the tools and knowledge. By working with them, they learn how to do things themselves. Maybe I shouldn't. Tools break, jackstands fail, maybe the air compressor will blow up!

I've also had friends over to work with my woodworking tools. I always found it fun to help a friend build a new dog house or another project. I better not anymore. Table saw cuts off a finger, I'm ruined!

Last week, my friend and I turned some pens on the lathe. It was a new experience for him and it was fun for me to share one of my hobbies. I shouldn't do that. Liability risks and all.

There are risks and dangers in life. Normal people accept this and do the best they can to minimize the risk.
Have you ever given an alcoholic beverage to a guest in your house? If so, you have accepted the risk that they may get involved in an accident after leaving your home. If they do, you can be held responsible for serving them.

Only you can choose your level of risk, but unless you wish to live as a hermit, you will assume risk. There is a fine line between being careful and being paranoid.

M24C
11-04-2012, 08:04
I reload for me and my family alone. It would have to be a very close friend to sell reloads and for me it would be at cost. One major reason liability!

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Smoker
11-04-2012, 08:23
I agree with meleors, a generous helping of common sense never hurts..

Gpruitt54
11-04-2012, 09:13
You are much to green to be handing out your reloads to anyone. Reload and shoot 5 to 10k of your reloads before you hand one out to someone.

You are absolutely right. That is why I don't do it. You know, that I am on this forum regularly, asking questions about reloading.

My friend is asking me to make reloads for him. But I refuse to do it. I agree with you totally. I have less than 1500 reloaded rounds under my belt. I have a long way to go. But, Iím having a ball learning this hobby.

Smoker
11-04-2012, 12:26
If it aint fun, just as well sell your stuff.

SCmasterblaster
11-04-2012, 13:36
A few years ago I would have said that I would sell my reloads, but a few months ago I had a 9mm round with no powder in it - the first in 38 years of reloading.

fredj338
11-04-2012, 13:55
The fastest way to lose friends is reload for them. SOmething will eventually go wrong, Murphy's law, then your fault or not, you lose a friend. Nope, my friends can come over & reload, I'll teach them, even supply components if they pay, but I am not pulling the handle for them.

Gpruitt54
11-04-2012, 15:46
If it aint fun, just as well sell your stuff.

Amen!

meleors
11-04-2012, 16:40
The fastest way to lose friends is reload for them. SOmething will eventually go wrong, Murphy's law, then your fault or not, you lose a friend. Nope, my friends can come over & reload, I'll teach them, even supply components if they pay, but I am not pulling the handle for them.
A perfect response. Pass your knowledge on to others so they can do it themselves. If you start reloading for others, the requests will never end! I'll teach someone, if they're not willing to learn and then invest in their own equipment, they can buy store bought ammo.

KSUGLocker
11-05-2012, 17:50
My experience is that friends will ask me to reload some rounds for them. I tell them they are welcome to use my Dillon. Even offer to make sure it's set up properly. They ALWAYS reply "I don't have time."
So my time is useless to them and their's is too valuable.

So no, I never reload for others. (But since they don't reload they give me their virgin brass)

fredj338
11-05-2012, 18:12
My experience is that friends will ask me to reload some rounds for them. I tell them they are welcome to use my Dillon. Even offer to make sure it's set up properly. They ALWAYS reply "I don't have time."
So my time is useless to them and their's is too valuable.

So no, I never reload for others. (But since they don't reload they give me their virgin brass)

I love factory ammo shooters. This allows me to have almsot an unlimited supply of handgun brass in service calibers via IDPA matches. Everyu serious shooter should reload, but if not, come shoot your factory ammo @ my club's matches.:supergrin:

countrygun
11-05-2012, 18:24
I won't because, just for one thing, I have no control over the gun they fire them in, its condition etc. I offer to buy their fired brass, if it's a caliber I can use but that is it. If they want to learn because they want to start, I will help them, but there are too many variables out of my control when the ammo leaves my sight.

norton
11-06-2012, 07:20
I love factory ammo shooters. This allows me to have almsot an unlimited supply of handgun brass in service calibers via IDPA matches. Everyu serious shooter should reload, but if not, come shoot your factory ammo @ my club's matches.:supergrin:

Fred, what I notice at my range - shooters firing 9mm and .40 leave brass laying on the ground all the time. The brass I really want, .45ACP is almost never left laying around.

emb111
11-06-2012, 10:30
What lawsuits come done to is money and how to get it. Friend or not, it may not matter. When that friend gets hurt and doesn't have the wherewithal, insurance, whatever to address and resolve the problem and you do, guess what? They really have very little choice but to sue you, and more likely than not there will be good faith basis for the suit.

I heard this somewhere (or some variant thereof): Friendship and money soon part. It applies to a lot of different situations. However, gunpowder, primers, bullets could all be considered inherently dangerous and reloading an inherently dangerous activity that carries a higher degree of care. That higher degree of care could equal legal liability that could bankrupt you.

Just becasue I'm parnoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get me.