Glock cycle time? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 18:04
Do you know the cycle time of glock 34 with ammo at the at caliber specified standard pressure

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 18:22
At what temperature and elevation, and with how many rounds on the RSA? :whistling:

kalifornia
10-31-2012, 18:26
don't forget humidity and lunar gravitational force.

NCHeel
10-31-2012, 18:27
Need to know what lube you use.

ron59
10-31-2012, 18:36
By the answers you're seeing... no "real" answer here.

Why in the world are you asking this?

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 18:36
Is Clint Eastwood holding the gun, or Twiggy?

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 18:49
LoL, not asking for split times. I was curious about cycle time because I could find it on line. Someone must know time from hammer fall to return to battery.

I guess my question to you is why wouldn't you be curious. It been said that intellectual curiosity is a direct reflection of IQ :faint:

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 18:57
Yeah. Sorry to poke fun. It is a serious question. But it does depend on a lot of different factors. There is no standard pressure: there is a range. Different bullet weights generate different amounts of energy. Lead bullets (some folks do use them in Glocks) react differently than jacketed or plated ones. The number of cycles on the RSA would be a big factor, as would the rigidity with which the gun was held and probably the temperature of the various components (guns get hot if they are shot rapidly). That heat would even affect the ammunition.

In order for there to be a standard answer, someone would need to specify a set of standard factors. No one has done this because no one has ever seen a reason to. At best one could test and discover a range of cycle times. But I doubt anyone has ever seen a reason to do even that.

I do have one thought. The Glock 18 is a selective fire variant of the 17. In full auto mode the rate of fire is 1100 to 1200 rounds per minute. Let's use 1200. That would be 20 rounds per second. So, each cycle would be approximately .05 seconds.

That's probably as close to an answer as you will get, unless someone else has another idea.

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 18:58
LoL, not asking for split times. I was curious about cycle time because I could find it on line. Someone must know time from hammer fall to return to battery.

I guess my question to you is why wouldn't you be curious. It been said that intellectual curiosity is a direct reflection of IQ :faint:

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Glocks don't have hammers. :supergrin:

JBS
10-31-2012, 19:06
Watch Raleigh's vid and time it out ?
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450043

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 19:11
Found fire rate of Glock's machine pistol is 1100 to 1200 rounds per minute.

Seems most on here would figure it out. For those having trouble with 3ard grade math....that is 0.05 to 0.054 seconds. Now you know what the cycle rate of 9mm is.

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 19:26
Dhgeyer, had the same thought. Ya know what they say about great minds :cool:

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

PS that is two rounds per eye blink

AustinTx
10-31-2012, 19:30
Has anyone ever been able to pull a trigger fast enough that the pistol couldn't keep up?

DocWills
10-31-2012, 19:31
Hammer time LOL :rofl: .03 seconds, sear time is operator.

1 round per second aimed.

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 19:35
Now you know what the cycle rate of 9mm is.

No, we don't. In the first place the G18 has a different fire control mechanism than the G17 and quite likely a different RSA. Apart from that, the cyclical rate of fire of the G18 is probably based on NATO spec 9mm ammunition, which is considerably "hotter" than what we normally shoot here. Also, in full auto mode, shots fired subsequent to the initial one probably take a different amount of time to cycle than the initial round due to the system being in motion, lube heating up, and several other factors.

Also, you specify the length of time to cycle beginning with hammer fall (Glocks have strikers, not hammers) up to return to battery. In reality you should include the time it takes for the striker to release and move forward.

At best what we have is a very rough approximation of the cycle time of a Glock 17.

Oh, and you say we know the cycle time of 9mm. Well, Glock makes several 9mm guns in 4 different sizes that I can think of. While you originally specify the G34, that is only one size. The others would cycle at different rates.

In other words, your solution (and mine) is a gross oversimplification. The difference is that I, and most on this board who actually own Glocks, know that.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 19:40
Hammer time LOL :rofl: .03 seconds, sear time is operator.

1 round per second aimed.

Doc, the USPSA boys (and gals) have 0.2 second splits. The good one have 0.12 second splits. The good ones putting all rounds (140 to 150) in 6" group while moving very quickly. They have a great index on the pistol but they can call their shots.

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

samurairabbi
10-31-2012, 19:49
Found fire rate of Glock's machine pistol is 1100 to 1200 rounds per minute.

Seems most on here would figure it out. For those having trouble with 3ard grade math....that is 0.05 to 0.054 seconds. Now you know what the cycle rate of 9mm is.

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

An additional factor that may affect that fifty millisecond estimate: the G18 at full auto PROBABLY uses advanced primer ignition. The semiauto cycle time would therefore be somewhat greater. API is used in most high rate automatic firearms.

samurairabbi
10-31-2012, 19:53
don't forget humidity and lunar gravitational force.

Do not forget to consider adiabatic lapse rate, too, if you wish your measurement to be truly meaningful.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 19:55
Hmmm, I'll bet i am in the statistical significant range. I own six glocks. First was g20 in 1995 or 1996. I am of the opinion the number of glocks you own and shoot has little to do with your skill as a shooter or your ability to solve differential equations.

Rusty
Texas, I love you

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 19:59
Now that is kinda interesting. What exactly is API?

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 20:08
Hmmm, I'll bet i am in the statistical significant range. I own six glocks. First was g20 in 1995 or 1996. I am of the opinion the number of glocks you own and shoot has little to do with your skill as a shooter or your ability to solve differential equations.

Rusty
Texas, I love you

Well, by the tone and attitude of your posts, it seems like you are really just trying to prove how awfully smart you are. Differential equations indeed! If you're so damn smart, how is it that you own six Glocks and don't know that none of them have hammers? Imprecise use of language is not a sign of superior intelligence.

Apart from that, though this cannot be proved or disproved with any information I have at hand, I would not be surprised if the cycle time of a G34 semi auto pistol with USA normal ammunition is different than that of a G18 in full auto mode with NATO ammunition by a factor of 2 or more.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 20:10
S Rabbi, I looked it up. I know nothing about automatic weapons. That was interesting....

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 20:12
What exactly is API?


I got curious myself and just looked that up. It can't be used in a Glock, as it is only possible in firearms that fire from an open bolt, like the "grease gun" of WWII. Essentially it is a system in which the primer is ignited by the closing bolt slightly before the bolt is fully in battery. This slows the bolt closing, and thus retards its opening again.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 20:17
Semantics? It was the concept that I was interested in. It was an honest interest, and at first got blockhead answers.

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

samurairabbi
10-31-2012, 20:18
Now that is kinda interesting. What exactly is API?

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Advanced Primer Ignition lets the primer be struck BEFORE the action is in the FULLY locked position. It uses the delay in the fired powder reaching FULL rated pressure to reduce the cycle time of a fullauto firearm. There are a number of different mechanical and timing techniques used to achieve this effect.

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 20:22
Semantics? It was the concept that I was interested in. It was an honest interest, and at first got blockhead answers.

They may have been tongue in cheek, maybe even a bit rude to a relative newcomer. I apologize for that. But they were, with one exception, in fact, very realistic and relevant answers.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 20:27
So that would mean no hammer (ok sticker) time. That could cut cycle time sagnificantly. I think dhgeyer was right. Not a good number. When you are wrong you are wrong.

Back to work on cycle time of g34

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 20:45
Ok let's start over. I have two g20 and a new g34. I shooting a new 6" barrel in one of the g20 and my g34 (idpa gun) and got to think about the cut out in the 34. Specifically how much it would effect the cycle time.

It coul be that glock was thinking about 1) cycle speed, 2) balance. I don't think it was overall weight (but maybe). Shooting light loads in the g20' I seem to have quicker recoil recovery time due to the weight forward of the slide and the 1&3/4" barrel hanging forward of the slide. Then.......I wondered what the cycle time was on the g34

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 20:48
I just looked at some design drawings and internal and external photographs of the G18. It is a short recoil locked breach action, same as other Glocks. Since the cartridge does not come into direct line with the firing pin until the slide is in battery, this eliminates the possibility of it utilizing API. The action isn't much different than a G17. There is a selector switch that looks a lot like a frame mounted thumb safety. In the down position (full auto), the switch protrudes into the bottom of the slide in such a way as to push the trigger bar down when the slide is in battery. Releasing the trigger moves it out of the way. Not an API system.

dhgeyer
10-31-2012, 20:54
Ok let's start over. I have two g20 and a new g34. I shooting a new 6" barrel in one of the g20 and my g34 (idpa gun) and got to think about the cut out in the 34. Specifically how much it would effect the cycle time.

It coul be that glock was thinking about 1) cycle speed, 2) balance. I don't think it was overall weight (but maybe). Shooting light loads in the g20' I seem to have quicker recoil recovery time due to the weight forward of the and the 1&3/4" barrel hanging forward of the slide. Then.......I wondered what the cycle time was on the g34

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Maybe someone at Glock knows. I'm sure they must. I'd be surprised if anyone here can really help you with that one. But you still have to keep in mind that it's all relative to ammunition, age of spring, etc. Glock probably develops and tests with some standard round, and what you are really looking for is relative speed of cycling between guns, so if you can find the right person at Glock to talk to, you could probably get an answer that would be of some help.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 21:30
here are 4 of my six glocks and the two that got me interested in cycle time

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o727/rustytxrx/g2034.jpg

G20 gne2 at top got a new 6" barrel. I had a ding in the crown of it old 6" barrel and sent it to have new crown. other 6" barrel is lone wolf I use for 200gr lead bullets.

g26 next, then new 34 with cut out showing. g20 gen3 next Missing is g21 and g29.

shooting lighter FBI loads (well minor 40 cal really in 10mm case) the 6" barrel recoveried quickly. timed splits were running 0.2 seconds and holding the -0 (idpa target 6" center at 20yds).

all that just got me thinking while waiting for trick or treaters.

g20 are used for Texas hunting. g34 to comp gun. little 9mm and 10mm are carry. I got full frame 45 acp cause everyone needs one :)

dhgeyer, I am a good glock mechanic but far from expert. I wish I knew a lot more about the entire life of the actual fire cycle, slide, bullet, case, extractor, magzine profile and new bullet pickup.

Rusty
Texas, Iuv u

samurairabbi
10-31-2012, 21:34
I just looked at some design drawings and internal and external photographs of the G18. It is a short recoil locked breach action, same as other Glocks. Since the cartridge does not come into direct line with the firing pin until the slide is in battery, this eliminates the possibility of it utilizing API. The action isn't much different than a G17. There is a selector switch that looks a lot like a frame mounted thumb safety. In the down position (full auto), the switch protrudes into the bottom of the slide in such a way as to push the trigger bar down when the slide is in battery. Releasing the trigger moves it out of the way. Not an API system.
The Glock barrel DOES go into the locked position, putting the primer in alignment with the striker, BEFORE the slide has returned to the FULLY forward position. That last bit of travel is only about an eighth of an inch, but it can have a large difference in Glock fullauto/semiauto cycle time.

An API system can be found in a closed bolt system. The slide, with extra parts, can be timed to release the striker before the slide is fully forward. An OPEN bolt API system can use a fixed firing pin, making it mechanically simpler, but closed bolt API setups can and do exist.

rustytxrx
10-31-2012, 21:41
btw the minor 40 cal is what I use in carry 10mm most of the time. full house 10mm out of the g29 over loads my ability to recover for next shot and over powers my grip to some extent.

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

dhgeyer
11-01-2012, 06:01
The Glock barrel DOES go into the locked position, putting the primer in alignment with the striker, BEFORE the slide has returned to the FULLY forward position

Mine doesn't. I just checked it very carefully. Barrel rise and slide forward motion absolutely coincide. The rearward cycle is different. There is a lag of anywhere from .080" to .100" of rearward slide motion on different pistols I own before the barrel starts to drop. This allows the bullet to exit the barrel before the barrel unlocks from the slide and is an essential element of the locked breach system invented by John M. Browning. But the forward motion has no such requirement, and involves different ramping surfaces.

I only have a sample of 1 Glock, a Gen4 19. On mine the slide stops exactly when the barrel stops rising.

I also think there would be no reason for Glock engineers to design an API system in the G18. Gaston likes things simple and, if at all possible, interchangeable. The locked breach system and API serve the same basic purpose, and the Glock is already a locked breach design.

I suppose if we really want to find out for absolute certain who is right we would have to talk to someone at Glock, and I don't mean some entry level CS person. For my part, I am quite sure that the G18 is not an API system. If you really insist on convincing me otherwise you will have to come up with documentation from Glock.

dhgeyer
11-01-2012, 06:24
Nice collection you have there rustytxrx! I've never owned more than 1 Glock at a time, but that is about to change today actually. I've been a shooter for 56 years, and built my first muzzle loading zip gun from scratch at age 13. I have been fascinated by firearms development and design for 50 years. I have owned, disassembled, examined, and in many cases repaired or modified over 200 guns, everything from matchlocks, wheel locks, flintlocks, percussion guns, and everything in between right up to the Glock, Kahr, CZ, and M4 carbine clone I have now. I have a couple of vintage S&W revolvers and 3 Colt Single Action Army Revolvers I keep also. I have fabricated parts for various Colt single action revolvers, predecessors and clones. I also fabricated a couple of parts for the G19, which seem to have improved extraction/ejection.

It sounds like you are a much better shooter than I am, though.

HK Dan
11-01-2012, 07:46
Full Auto .04 to .06, Semi auto .06 to .08. All of this bull squeeze about humidity, temp--it's all just that. It may make a difference but it isnt really measurabe by anything we have access to. My numbers come off a CED 7000 timer.

Gallium
11-01-2012, 08:24
Full Auto .04 to .06, Semi auto .06 to .08. All of this bull squeeze about humidity, temp--it's all just that. It may make a difference but it isnt really measurabe by anything we have access to. My numbers come off a CED 7000 timer.

I have a high speed (Ok mid speed) 1000 frames/sec video camera.

rustytxrx
11-01-2012, 08:43
HK Dan, CED 7000 is good enough for me :)? Thanks

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Bren
11-01-2012, 09:02
LoL, not asking for split times. I was curious about cycle time because I could find it on line. Someone must know time from hammer fall to return to battery.

I guess my question to you is why wouldn't you be curious. It been said that intellectual curiosity is a direct reflection of IQ :faint:

Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Because the only answer that matters is, "faster than you can pull the trigger again." That makes it more "idle" than "intellectual" curiosity.

samurairabbi
11-01-2012, 09:42
Full Auto .04 to .06, Semi auto .06 to .08. All of this bull squeeze about humidity, temp--it's all just that. It may make a difference but it isnt really measurabe by anything we have access to. My numbers come off a CED 7000 timer.

The jabs about temperature, humidity, lunar gravity, and adiabatic lapse rate were satire.

What was your test jig setup for timing the SEMIauto cycle time?

kalifornia
11-02-2012, 08:43
what was the barometric pressure when that CE7000 was last calibrated hmm?

samurairabbi
11-02-2012, 09:21
what was the barometric pressure when that CE7000 was last calibrated hmm?

... and was the torque of the dork set to within service limits?

dhgeyer
11-02-2012, 11:11
I'm getting into an area that I'm not too familiar with, but isn't the CE7000 a shot timer? It very accurately measures times between shots, total time for a series, and so forth - right? So how do you use this tool to measure slide cycle time? You would have to fire a second shot somehow (in semi-auto mode), and that introduces trigger time as well as human time to pull the trigger the second time.

So what I'm asking is, just what test resulted in the .06 to .08 second figures? How exactly was this done?

Actually, the figures themselves sound about like what I would have guessed based on the full auto rate of fire.

jupiter
11-02-2012, 11:22
Has anyone ever been able to pull a trigger fast enough that the pistol couldn't keep up?

A few years back, someone posted on one of the forums that a couple of friends of his had to lighten the slides of their G34s because they were outrunning the gun which IMHO was B.S..
These pistols cycle faster than .10 of a second. I doubt their split times were faster than this. Even Jerry Miculek doesn't run much better than this at his best.

NCHeel
11-02-2012, 11:28
I still believe we need to know the type of lube used as the coefficient of friction will come into play when measuring thousands of a second. Only guessing to hundredth of a second, as everyone has done, leaves a large margin of approximation. The less friction means the RSA can expend more of its' kinetic energy to reciprocating the slide rather than overcoming the friction resistance.

NCHeel
11-02-2012, 11:38
I think I have devised an equation that can answer your question. Just plug in the data for any particular pistol and do the calculations.

https://www.msu.edu/~tuckeys1/highschool/images/physics/eqn_impulse_momentum.gif

dhgeyer
11-02-2012, 11:42
I still believe we need to know the type of lube used as the coefficient of friction will come into play when measuring thousands of a second. Only guessing to hundredth of a second, as everyone has done, leaves a large margin of approximation. The less friction means the RSA can expend more of its' kinetic energy to reciprocating the slide rather than overcoming the friction resistance.

And I still think who's holding the gun would make a difference. After all, if the frame is moving backward almost as fast as the slide, that's sure going to increase the cycle time. I know I'm stating it as an extreme case, and the other extreme would be the gun in a vise. But, picture those extremes and I think you'd have to agree that how much, if any, freedom of motion the gun has would have to affect slide cycle time.

NCHeel
11-02-2012, 11:51
And I still think who's holding the gun would make a difference. After all, if the frame is moving backward almost as fast as the slide, that's sure going to increase the cycle time. I know I'm stating it as an extreme case, and the other extreme would be the gun in a vise. But, picture those extremes and I think you'd have to agree that how much, if any, freedom of motion the gun has would have to affect slide cycle time.It definitely will. I assumed since we were trying to calculate something as minute as pistol cycle time as many variables as possible need to be removed and therefor the pistol would be placed in a vise.

http://hyskore.com/carousel/carousel_asset/22_30018.jpg