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MississipVol
11-04-2012, 20:50
I'm new to AR's, just got my first just over a month ago. I've seen several threads about the need to stockpile ammo in case of a SHTF situation or I guess in case they try to outlaw the manufacture of the stuff. (These are my perceptions as to "why" anyway.)

So when you guys are stockpiling, what are you primarily focusing on? Are you stockpiling a bunch of the cheaper stuff you would normally shoot at the range or are you buying a bunch of defensive ammo stuff?

I'm on a limited budget since I just got an AR and an optic so I won't be buying any cases anytime soon. In fact, right now I have trouble keeping up with the amount I shoot. I have one 20-rd box of defensive ammo that was pretty expensive.

What do you suggest for me? Should I slowly buy an extra box of just regular range ammo and put it back or should I be focused on putting back boxes of defensive ammo?

Also, what about mags? What is a realistic minimum you'd be comfortable with? (I have four P-mags.)

TIA for your suggestions!

WoodenPlank
11-04-2012, 20:58
I mostly stock up on cheap 55gr brass and steel case ammo, as I can shoot it on the range. I keep a small reserve of that locked away, as well as about 250 rounds of quality OTM.

I try to keep 2-3 average range trips worth of practice ammo on hand at any given time, and replenish as I shoot it up.

Cole125
11-04-2012, 22:27
I just stock quality brass case ammo, and keep enough on hand for 5 or so range trips which is about 3 cases. If the SHTF or the zombies come I'll stop going to the range, so Ill have enough to blast zombie goblins.

You need minimum 10 mags per rifle.

Jon_R
11-04-2012, 22:54
What do you consider a defensive round for your ar? You said it was expensive.

I am plenty happy with m193 out of my 16 inch + ars. That is not that expensive. I have a case of that bunch of wolf for range and gearing up to reload a bunch of 223. M193 has worked well for a long time out of carbines. If I wanted to use my sbr for serious use I would look for something else as the speed for fragmentation with 193 out of 11 inch barrel ends at about 40 yards if I remember correctly.

mjkeat
11-04-2012, 22:57
I don't see how anyone can define an amount.

Ideally I'd like enough to get me through a lifetime of shooting as it isn't getting any less expensive. It would save money in the long run. It's not financially or logistically possible for me. Cost and availability are my only concern.

As far as brand goes I like Wolf and Tula.

WoodenPlank
11-04-2012, 23:00
What do you consider a defensive round for your ar? You said it was expensive.

I am plenty happy with m193 out of my 16 inch + ars. That is not that expensive. I have a case of that bunch of wolf for range and gearing up to reload a bunch of 223. M193 has worked well for a long time out of carbines. If I wanted to use my sbr for serious use I would look for something else as the speed for fragmentation with 193 out of 11 inch barrel ends at about 40 yards if I remember correctly.

Nope. Frag range of M855 and M193 from a 10.5" is barely past contact range. Mk. 262 and Hornady TAP T2 75gr have a max frag range of just shy of 50 yards.

Even from a 16" barrel, M193 isn't what I would want for serious HD/SD use. Invest in some decent quality soft-points, JHP or even OTM loads. M193 and M855 are just too inconsistent (especially 855) in terms of fragmentation in many situations.

Rooster Rugburn
11-04-2012, 23:12
IMO, and I make no claims of being an expert, unlike a lot of posters here.....

If you are looking at SHTF, get a variety. A couple\few hundred of the green tip (M855) steel core, some M193 and some commercial hollow point. That pretty much covers the spectrum.

Read up at M4carbine.net (new owner threads) and find the right bullet for your barrels twist. The cool thing is, learning is free and easy. Buying is what is costly.

AND, get some frangible for anti personnel, just in case.

MississipVol
11-04-2012, 23:33
I have a Colt LE 6920 - MOE.

I have one box of soft-points the LGS recommended for hunting or HD situations. But they were pretty expensive. That's why I wondered if people were talking about stocking up that kind of ammo or just regular range ammo.

Sounds like I could pick up some extra PMC X-TAC and be pretty much ok.

WarEagle32
11-05-2012, 00:58
You will get sooo many different schools of thought one that one. I'd just buy up range ammo if I were you. 55 grain brass case is as good as anything. Buy what you can afford!!! But for me priorities would be 1. regular ammo 2.mags 3. A distant 3 is top shelf defense ammo. Any 5.56 ammo will get the job done in a SHTF scenerio. JMO

Warp
11-05-2012, 01:36
First of all, excellent choice for your first AR. :thumbsup:

I suggest: If you only have one box of something, don't plan on using it for defense, SHTF, whatever. I wouldn't use anything for HD/SD/SHTF unless you have run some of it through your rifle. This allows you to verify function and see where it hits (test POI, or point of impact). Practically and realistically speaking if you are talking about quality ammo from a reputable, major manufacturer, in good magazines, in your properly lubed and cared for Colt, at home defense/closer range self defense distances...those things probably don't even matter. It'll run, and the round will hit close enough to where any other round hits.

But then Mr Murphy says that what can go wrong, will. So I'd want some rounds down the pipe before loading it to potentially bet your life on. I'd rather have XM193 or XM855 that I know works, and I am zero'd for, than some high end defensive round that I haven't yet fired through my rifle.

Now, as for what to stock, stocking what you train with usually seems to be the way to go. I recommend bulk 5.56, or some of the better .223, perhaps. Brass case.

Right now I would look at these, if you can afford them: (and don't expect them to be in stock very long, esp at these prices)

http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-3507-federal-lake-city-556mm-m855-62-grain-full-metal-jacket-250-rounds-ammunition.aspx (they have others of this type with free shipping if you buy more)

http://www.sgammo.com/product/pmc/1000-round-case-223-pmc-55-grain-fmj-ammo-limited-supplies

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/pmc-x-tac-55gr.html

http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-2384-federal-lake-city-556mm-m193-55-grain-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail-case-of-1000-bulk-ammunition.aspx



Also:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881


Yes, you could pick up some PMC X-TAC M193 (or 855) and be just fine.

If you are really limited on ammo budget find the best price you can on brass case FMJ/ball ammo and get as much as you can/are willing to spend.

Warp
11-05-2012, 01:41
And get some magazines. Personally I wouldn't want fewer than, as an absolute minimum, 6 quality full capacity magazines.

PMAGs are the gold standard. They can be found for anywhere between about $10.50 and $15 right now, depending on generation.

https://www.primaryarms.com/MAGPUL_PMAG_30rd_NON_Window_GEN_M3_Black_FREE_SH_p/mag557-blk.htm

https://www.primaryarms.com/AR15_Magazines_s/554.htm

http://www.44mag.com/category/223_ar15_magazines

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 07:30
Read up on frangible 5.56 and see what you think before purchasing any.

LL6
11-05-2012, 08:02
I got a good deal on PMC 62g 855 so I bought a case. Don't care if it's not ideal for HD/SHTH/TEOTWAWKI because of frangibility. That's why there are 29 little green-tipped siblings right behind it. :wavey:

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 08:25
Green tip is horrible for defensive shooting.

arushus
11-05-2012, 08:40
Im just another guy with a couple pistols and an AR, so by no means could I even be considered an intermediately educated AR specialist. But here is what I do. Steel case Tulammo runs just fine in my gun, mag after mag, Ive tried to get it to mess up, and it wont any sooner than with any other ammo, but that ks just my gun. So when I can afford nothing else, I buy tulammo. But, my biggest stockpile is in M193. I buy it whenever I can find it for $6.99 for 20 rounds. Sgammo has a pretty good deal on winchester 5.56 q3313, which is a good, barrier-blind soft point ammo. So I got about 300 rounds of it. Im by no means dedicated to one certain ammo. I just buy whatever is priced so that it is a Good Value. And as far as SHTF goes, I am of the opinion that anything that reliably goes boom will work for fending off the zombies or aliens or hillbillies. (No offense to hillbillies, Im part hillbilly myself). Right now I have 5,000 rounds of pistol ammo, and 1200 rounds of various .223 and 5.56 ammo stored up, which in my mind is not nearly enough rifle ammo, but Im getting there on pistol ammo. At any rate it isnt going to be getting cheaper, so you may as well buy what you can now...The point is, buy whatever you can afford, a round of tulammo or wolf is better than no round at all!

Glockdude1
11-05-2012, 08:48
Green tip is horrible for defensive shooting.

What is it good for?

:dunno:

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 09:21
What is it good for?

:dunno:

Exiting the threat dumping as little energy as possible.

K. Foster
11-05-2012, 09:50
This is what I do. I keep a stockpile of XM193 type ammo because it’s cheap and good for plinking, training or most types of shooting. I prefer 193 over XM855 because it’s cheaper, a little more accurate (if that matters) and is easier on my steel targets.
I keep this stockpile not so much for fantasy SHTF scenarios but because I shoot a lot. I shoot almost every week and about once a month, I get together with some friends and we have a high volume range day doing defensive training. Also, if I want to take a class, I don’t have to immediately scrounge for ammo.
For personal defense, I recommend you use better suited ammo. A couple mags of TAP or a heavy soft point will be fine.
If you’re on a limited budget, look for deals on line and buy when you can.
On mags, I would recommend 8 to10 as a minimum but depending on the type of shooting you do, you can get by with 4 to 5. It just depends on what you want.

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 09:50
Get 100-200 rounds of quality hollow points (Black Hills Mk 262 Mod 1, Hornady 75gr). Most effective non-barrier ammo for the 5.56/.223 around. If you want barrier blind stuff get some 55 or 62gr Gold Dots or any of the other good JSPs (but the Gold Dots will probably be cheaper).

Any good M193 clone is fine for larger scale stashes, but I wouldn't use them for self-defense unless it's all I had.

One good thing, all these various ammo types really have a very similar "feel" when shooting. Some may be a touch hotter than others but overall it's not like handguns where feel can be so much different depending on the ammo.


Hornady 75gr:
http://frankbaumer.com/Heartland%20Pictures/1_Pics/Hornady_80268_223_TAP_FPD_75gr_BTHP.jpg

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 09:52
Green tip is horrible for defensive shooting.

It's not much worse than the old M193. Wound profiles are quite similar. Both are far less desirable than hollow points and JSPs.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 10:30
It's not much worse than the old M193. Wound profiles are quite similar. Both are far less desirable than hollow points and JSPs.

I wouldn't use 193 either unless I had to.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Big Bird
11-05-2012, 11:02
I use M193 or M855 because it will do exactly what its supposed to do inside any reasonable self defense range with a 14.5 or 16" carbine. Inside of 150 yards its fine.

I have complete confidence in either load and stock and shoot both.

I also use 62gr Federal Fusion for deer hunting at 100 yards and under when my kid is pulling the Trigger. Though for deer with an AR I prefer my 6.8 with 100 grain Nosler Accubonds at 2900 fps at 300 yards and under but that's another story.

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 11:08
I myself use M193 for everything, and just keep a case in the closet and replace it when it's gone.

Not too terribly expensive, very good at close range for HD/SD, and good at the range. Simple, easy and relatively cheap.

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 11:57
This is why M193/M855 aren't so good. If it's all I had I wouldn't sweat it, but one needs to be aware of how it performs. This picture is for M855 but M193 is quite similar, especially if the velocity is low-ish.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/m855%20body%20overlay%2001.jpg

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 12:03
This is why M193/M855 aren't so good. If it's all I had I wouldn't sweat it, but one needs to be aware of how it performs. This picture is for M855 but M193 is quite similar, especially if the velocity is low-ish.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/m855%20body%20overlay%2001.jpg

Certainly, for SBRs, or distances where velocities of the projectile will drop below 2700fps (for M193).

Since were talking about HD/SD, the distances will be very, very close for and AR. M193 at/close to 3000fps is extremely nasty....really, really nasty. We've all seen the story some have posted here of the skinny kid shot in the leg with M193 at close range, with the pictures and reply from the actual Doctor who attended the kid. Leaves little doubt about M193 at close range.

mgs
11-05-2012, 12:03
I keep 1000 rounds of good brass cased 55FMJ in stock for each rifle. I reload so I keep plenty of components in stock also to reload the brass. I'm not impressed with factory 62 FMJ but hand load 69MK all the time.

Warp
11-05-2012, 12:06
Certainly, for SBRs, or distances where velocities of the projectile will drop below 2700fps (for M193).

Since were talking about HD/SD, the distances will be very, very close for and AR. M193 at/close to 3000fps is extremely nasty....really, really nasty. We've all seen the story some have posted here of the skinny kid shot in the leg with M193 at close range, with the pictures and reply from the actual Doctor who attended the kid. Leaves little doubt about M193 at close range.


Even at HD/SD ranges out of a 16" barrel, M193 and M855 can fail to fragment.

When it works, it works.

It doesn't always work.

LL6
11-05-2012, 13:05
Green tip is horrible for defensive shooting.
I don't care if it doesn't make a pretty pattern in ballistic gel. A round or two of 855 will ruin their day.

Same goes for my SHTF 9mm stash. It's *OMG!* just 115g fmj because I'm not bulk stashing my EDC 124g +p gold dots.

...and the last omg is I'm doing it out of a CMMG LEP. Stop the presses! A 1:9 twist, 4140 Wasp barrel. I'm waiting right now for the Colt/Nove/BMC police to come bustin' in and arrest me for bad form. :rofl:

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 13:18
Even at HD/SD ranges out of a 16" barrel, M193 and M855 can fail to fragment.

When it works, it works.

It doesn't always work.

As far as I have read, it's all about velocity at impact. Since we're talking about very, very short range at SD/HD, out of my 16" barrel it should impact at 3000fps+

True, nothing is gauranteed, but that level of velocity should make the likely hood of it fragmenting pretty darn good.

Plus, given that there is an extremely small chance I would ever need to use it in an HD/SD, and also because it's nice to use the same ammo for everything, plus factoring in it's relatively cheap cost, I'm alright with it.

Like LL6 said, ballistic gel tests aren't everything. Getting hit with an AR at short range will ruin your day, regardless of the ammo used.

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 13:19
I don't care if it doesn't make a pretty pattern in ballistic gel. A round or two of 855 will ruin their day.

Same goes for my SHTF 9mm stash. It's *OMG!* just 115g fmj because I'm not bulk stashing my EDC 124g +p gold dots.

...and the last omg is I'm doing it out of a CMMG LEP. Stop the presses! A 1:9 twist, 4140 Wasp barrel. I'm waiting right now for the Colt/Nove/BMC police to come bustin' in and arrest me for bad form. :rofl:

Three words;

Not.

Tactical.

Enough.


:rofl::rofl:

Warp
11-05-2012, 13:38
As far as I have read, it's all about velocity at impact. Since we're talking about very, very short range at SD/HD, out of my 16" barrel it should impact at 3000fps+

True, nothing is gauranteed, but that level of velocity should make the likely hood of it fragmenting pretty darn good.

Plus, given that there is an extremely small chance I would ever need to use it in an HD/SD, and also because it's nice to use the same ammo for everything, plus factoring in it's relatively cheap cost, I'm alright with it.

Like LL6 said, ballistic gel tests aren't everything. Getting hit with an AR at short range will ruin your day, regardless of the ammo used.

Yeah...pretty much. A short range hit from any reasonable round out of a regular length barrel, unobstructed, most likely won't be pretty.

MississipVol
11-05-2012, 13:45
As the OP, I understand that the PMC X-TAC is not going to be as effective as a defensive round as a JHP or soft-tip like you guys mentioned.

However, I started off the thread asking what people are stockpiling and most mentioned range/plinking ammo. I thought the PMC X-TAC (which has been pretty accurate in my limited use) would at least provide a little more damage to a human target than a FMJ round would. That's why I mentioned I could probably go that route.

I have a box of Hornady Tap but they are almost 2.5X the price of the PMC X-TAC. My budget doesn't allow me to gradully stockpile $1/rd ammo right now.

I am not sold on the X-Tac b/c I've read it has a really big flash that would be detrimental in HD situations.

If not PMC X-TAC, what would you guys recommend to a guy on a budget that is slowly trying to acumulate ammo 20-50/rd boxes at a time at about .50/round?

Patriot328
11-05-2012, 13:54
I

...and the last omg is I'm doing it out of a CMMG LEP. Stop the presses! A 1:9 twist, 4140 Wasp barrel. I'm waiting right now for the Colt/Nove/BMC police to come bustin' in and arrest me for bad form. :rofl:

Good God how can you sleep at night knowing you have such inferior weaponry??

:)

Travclem
11-05-2012, 13:55
As the OP, I understand that the PMC X-TAC is not going to be as effective as a defensive round as a JHP or soft-tip like you guys mentioned.

However, I started off the thread asking what people are stockpiling and most mentioned range/plinking ammo. I thought the PMC X-TAC (which has been pretty accurate in my limited use) would at least provide a little more damage to a human target than a FMJ round would. That's why I mentioned I could probably go that route.

I have a box of Hornady Tap but they are almost 2.5X the price of the PMC X-TAC. My budget doesn't allow me to gradully stockpile $1/rd ammo right now.

I am not sold on the X-Tac b/c I've read it has a really big flash that would be detrimental in HD situations.

If not PMC X-TAC, what would you guys recommend to a guy on a budget that is slowly trying to acumulate ammo 20-50/rd boxes at a time at about .50/round?


X-Tac is FMJ.

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 14:02
Yeah...pretty much. A short range hit from any reasonable round out of a regular length barrel, unobstructed, most likely won't be pretty.

Hell, the muzzle blast alone would be incapacitating.:rofl::rofl:

MississipVol
11-05-2012, 14:07
X-Tac is FMJ.

You're right.

I was thinking the X-Tac was a soft point b/c it has a green tip. My bad.

So any recommendations?

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 14:21
X-TAC is available both in 55gr FMJ and 62gr green tip.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 14:27
I don't care if it doesn't make a pretty pattern in ballistic gel. A round or two of 855 will ruin their day.

When was the last time you engaged someone w/ 855? How many rounds until they ceased to exist?

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 14:32
When was the last time you engaged someone w/ 855? How many rounds until they ceased to exist?

How about you?

How many folks have you "engaged" with any firearm, firing any type of ammo.

I'm just dying to know how many notches you have on your gun-fighter belt.

Warp
11-05-2012, 14:37
As the OP, I understand that the PMC X-TAC is not going to be as effective as a defensive round as a JHP or soft-tip like you guys mentioned.

However, I started off the thread asking what people are stockpiling and most mentioned range/plinking ammo. I thought the PMC X-TAC (which has been pretty accurate in my limited use) would at least provide a little more damage to a human target than a FMJ round would. That's why I mentioned I could probably go that route.

I have a box of Hornady Tap but they are almost 2.5X the price of the PMC X-TAC. My budget doesn't allow me to gradully stockpile $1/rd ammo right now.

I am not sold on the X-Tac b/c I've read it has a really big flash that would be detrimental in HD situations.

If not PMC X-TAC, what would you guys recommend to a guy on a budget that is slowly trying to acumulate ammo 20-50/rd boxes at a time at about .50/round?

X-TAC is available both in 55gr FMJ and 62gr green tip.

I've been wondering about this the whole time.

Which ammo specifically are you referring to? Since you are quoting $.50 per round I am thinking/hoping you are talking about the 62gr penetrator/green tip.

Most likely the typical 55 or 62 grain (193 or 855) projectile will do what you need it to in a close range defensive situation with an unobstructed shot.

I'd buy one more box of that Hornady TAP. Shoot some, and load some for defense. If you don't have enough left to fill a mag, load regular ball under it with the TAP on top.

MississipVol
11-05-2012, 14:49
I've been wondering about this the whole time.

Which ammo specifically are you referring to? Since you are quoting $.50 per round I am thinking/hoping you are talking about the 62gr penetrator/green tip.

Most likely the typical 55 or 62 grain (193 or 855) projectile will do what you need it to in a close range defensive situation with an unobstructed shot.

I'd buy one more box of that Hornady TAP. Shoot some, and load some for defense. If you don't have enough left to fill a mag, load regular ball under it with the TAP on top.

Yes, the 62 gr green tip is what I was referring to. Like I said I am new to AR's but thought the green tipped X-TAC had a little more defensive application than a regular FMJ round. Could be wrong though...

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 14:59
As the OP, I understand that the PMC X-TAC is not going to be as effective as a defensive round as a JHP or soft-tip like you guys mentioned.

However, I started off the thread asking what people are stockpiling and most mentioned range/plinking ammo. I thought the PMC X-TAC (which has been pretty accurate in my limited use) would at least provide a little more damage to a human target than a FMJ round would. That's why I mentioned I could probably go that route.

I have a box of Hornady Tap but they are almost 2.5X the price of the PMC X-TAC. My budget doesn't allow me to gradully stockpile $1/rd ammo right now.

I am not sold on the X-Tac b/c I've read it has a really big flash that would be detrimental in HD situations.

If not PMC X-TAC, what would you guys recommend to a guy on a budget that is slowly trying to acumulate ammo 20-50/rd boxes at a time at about .50/round?

Purchase enough of your defensive type to fill 4 magazines and enough to sight in your AR at whatever distance you feel is adiquate for you.

Then purchase 3 boxes of 55gr or 62gr Tula FMJ to see if your AR will run it. If it does purchase as much of it as you can or feel will sufice for the amount you plan on shooting.

Use the Tula for learning and keep the TAP or whatever for a rainy day.

855, 109, 193, etc. are not ideal for shooting things w/ legs. It's not about pretty wound cavities in the least. It's all about putting the target down as fast as possible so you can move onto the next.

Now this is all worst case scenario. Likelyhood, slim. But you asked. I may not keep a bunch of defensive ammunition laying around but it might be a good idea.

Warp
11-05-2012, 15:00
Yes, the 62 gr green tip is what I was referring to. Like I said I am new to AR's but thought the green tipped X-TAC had a little more defensive application than a regular FMJ round. Could be wrong though...

I think that, actually, the M193 (55gr ball) is better against soft targets on an unobstructed shot...and is often a little more accurate, too. The M855 (62gr steel cone penetrator) is better on tougher targets or through an intermediate barrier.

That's what I have come to believe, anyway.

I have both, in addition to the premium defensive stuff. Right now spare magazines are loaded with 193, but next time I mess with stuff I think my spare mags will be getting the steel tip 855.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 15:06
How about you?

How many folks have you "engaged" with any firearm, firing any type of ammo.

I'm just dying to know how many notches you have on your gun-fighter belt.

You once again missed the point. The point wasn't to get a number in return. It was to enduce thought.

Some of you people floor me. There are experienced individuals (not necessarily myself) speaking on a subject they have experienced first hand w/ scientific data to back their statements yet guys w/ no experience w/o researching the topic want to argue and mislead the OP who seems to genuinely care about a correct answer to his question.

M&P15T
11-05-2012, 15:17
You once again missed the point. The point wasn't to get a number in return. It was to enduce thought.

Some of you people floor me. There are experienced individuals (not necessarily myself) speaking on a subject they have experienced first hand w/ scientific data to back their statements yet guys w/ no experience w/o researching the topic want to argue and mislead the OP who seems to genuinely care about a correct answer to his question.

No, I've missed no point.

There is no right or wrong answer to the OPs question. There's many different factors the OP has to keep in mind when making his decision, so the best that this thread can do is to present those different factors.

It's the OP's decision to make, so getting many different observations and opinions is fine.

Yes, even if they're not the same as yours.

Hell, especially if they're not the same as yours, since you represent the "fringe" element of shooting ARs.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 15:36
No, I've missed no point.

There is no right or wrong answer to the OPs question. There's many different factors the OP has to keep in mind when making his decision, so the best that this thread can do is to present those different factors.

It's the OP's decision to make, so getting many different observations and opinions is fine.

Yes, even if they're not the same as yours.

Hell, especially if they're not the same as yours, since you represent the "fringe" element of shooting ARs.

The "fringe" as in the 1% I guess. Right? Though I am not at the top of the 1%, the "fringe" element you speak of is the group who speaks from experience. The people who know what works and what doesn't.

There is a right and wrong answer here.

If I want information on seeding my yard I don't take advice from a welder. I call up the local plant nersery.

bmoore
11-05-2012, 15:52
Some people on here are acting like dingle goats. Ive seen and treated more GSW's than anyone on here, if you think you have seen more than post up. The 2 shots at close distance "ruine someones day" is one of the stupidist things I have ever heard. Load up good quality ammo and hope for the best, people do strange things when hit by bullets and bullets do strange things when they hit people.

The last lady we had that pointed her gauge at PD got some 77grn rounds out 14.5 inch Colts. Through and through her hands and into her chest did nothing. The final round through and throughed her skull with about a baseball sized exit. Although she was out of the fight and not following commands she maintained a heart rate and blood pressure for quite a while.

The week before that I had a guy center punched by .45ACP that was in his recliner talking to us when we arrived, he opened the door for us/Sheriffs. He lived for about 23 minutes before coding enroute to the trauma center. A bunch of you are out of touch with reality and watch too many movies.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 15:56
What round bmoore?

bmoore
11-05-2012, 16:01
What round bmoore?

77grn HPBT

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 16:07
I think this is a good opportunity for us to get a better idea of this topic.

bmoore, Why do you think this happened? Wrong round for the job. Velocity to high or low for the round to do its job? Do you think hitting the bones in the hands had an effect? What round do you think would have been more effective?

bmoore
11-05-2012, 16:07
Oh I forgot about the one we just had. A deputy donkey kicked a door (faced away and kicked backwards) and took 2 30-06 rounds from a Garand throough the back and out chest. That was last month. He was concioius and alert the entire time, he has a long road to recovery but is doing well.

bmoore
11-05-2012, 16:10
I think this is a good opportunity for us to get a better idea of this topic.

bmoore, Why do you think this happened? Wrong round for the job. Velocity to high or low for the round to do its job? Do you think hitting the bones in the hands had an effect? What round do you think would have been more effective?

More rounds on the CNS. Brain/Spine shots put people out of fights like yesterday. Center mass you are waiting for blood loss. I think her putting her hands up had a big effect but who knows. Trauma doc said the rounds entered the chest cavity. I have seen people take center mass hits and live for a long time. Last year I had a guy popped with a 9mm in the femoral artery and it was game over quick, imagine turning on a garden hose.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 16:15
I believe it. That's why trainers are starting to teach face, center mass, and pelvis. The pelvis is much less mobile and thus easier to hit than the head.

My step-father worked the ER as a Dr. for some time and has experienced similar situations.

bmoore
11-05-2012, 16:18
I believe it. That's why trainers are starting to teach face, center mass, and pelvis. The pelvis is much less mobile and thus easier to hit than the head.

My step-father worked the ER as a Dr. for some time and has experienced similar situations.

In my humble opinion the pelvis is very under estimated. Big weight bearing bones and BIG arteries.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 16:21
In my humble opinion the pelvis is very under estimated. Big weight bearing bones and BIG arteries.

In the words of Si Robertson, "boo ya!"

Big Bird
11-05-2012, 17:56
I've seen people die with 25mm, 120mm, 7.62 and .50 cal. Never personally witness anyone shoot anyone with 5.56. But I've seen one guy take a hit from a 25mm round keep walking with a big chunk blown out of his side.

I've killed dozens and dozens of big game animals and have seen animals run farther than you would think possible with holes in their heart and multiple holes in their lungs and major broken bones.

There simply is no magic bullet and never will be. There are simply too many variations in anatomy, physiology, actual condition of the organs when the projectile punches through etc etc.

Only thing I've seen drop a person or an animal like a sack of potatos is a CNS hit or a massive hit to the chest that disrupts all the major plumbing where it comes together at the top of the heart and lungs...a massive sudden blood loss WILL cause immediate incapacitation as well because your brain senses the sudden drop in blood pressure and shuts down all but the most basic neuro functions (breathing/heart pumping).

I will also say that a good hit to the liver can really put a man down quick and as noted above a good femoral artery hit.

I've nailed a few deer with a texas heart shot (straight up the keester) and I've also shot a few that took a step forward as the shot broke and hit them in the pelvis. Texas heat shots run right down the spine and will nail an animal as will a pelvis shot though a finishing shot is usually required. I try to avoid the texas heart shot with a gun anymore as it tears up too much good loin meat for my druthers but I'll do it with a bow.

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 18:14
M193 will do in a pinch, but is VERY velocity dependent. It's near the bottom of the barrel in defensive loads. Save it for the range. When it works, it's devastating, but it doesn't always work.

M855 is just as velocity dependent as M193, with less accuracy and a lot more issues with lot-to-lot inconsistency with fragmentation. Unless you're worried about bad guys wearing 70s to 80s style Soviet body armor, skip it. Before anyone asks, it won't penetrate modern SAPI or E-SAPI plates without multiple strikes. There are FAR better options for self defense use, even when barriers are a concern.

There are tons of 55, 62, 64, 69, 70, 75 and 77 grain soft-point, open tip match, and jacketed hollow-point projectiles and loads available that will perform reliably and consistently, including many that will perform very well through barriers.

Nobody says you have to buy thousands of rounds of the good stuff, or burn SP/OTM/JHP at the range all the time. Buy enough to test in YOUR gun, and keep a few loaded mags handy. It's much cheaper than your life, so buy some good ammo already.

You probably don't carry FMJ in your concealed carry handgun because it sucks - so why would use use sucky ammo in your rifle?

For range use, find whatever cheap 55 grain ammo your gun likes. If it runs reliably, and fairly accurately, then buy lots of it. If you want more accuracy, try a few kinds and weights of match grade ammo, and see what your particular rifle likes there, too.

In my humble opinion the pelvis is very under estimated. Big weight bearing bones and BIG arteries.

Yep. Hard to walk when half of the pelvis is in pieces.

Big Bird
11-05-2012, 18:25
The one thing I will tell everyone is there is no substitute for good penetration. A round that penetrates is a round you want. In all the animals I've put on the ground the ones that went down the hardest and fastest were the ones where I got through and through penetration. Through bones, at angles, through thick skin, through vital organs. Penetration is king. Anyone who puts their hope in fragmentation or expansion or energy transfer is barking up the wrong tree. None of that stuff works if it doesn't penetrate far enough to do damage to vital organs. From the side than might mean through an arm before it hits the chest. Someone posted the fragmentation of 193 over seven inches...that's a GOOD thing! It penetrates before it falls apart!

Shooting living things isn't a range drill. You are moving, they are moving, its done through vegetation, through walls, behind trees, uphill, downhill etc etc.

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 18:29
The one thing I will tell everyone is there is no substitute for good penetration. A round that penetrates is a round you want. In all the animals I've put on the ground the ones that went down the hardest and fastest were the ones where I got through and through penetration. Through bones, at angles, through thick skin, through vital organs. Penetration is king. Anyone who puts their hope in fragmentation or expansion or energy transfer is barking up the wrong tree. None of that stuff works if it doesn't penetrate far enough to do damage to vital organs. From the side than might mean through an arm before it hits the chest. Someone posted the fragmentation of 193 over seven inches...that's a GOOD thing! It penetrates before it falls apart!

Shooting living things isn't a range drill. You are moving, they are moving, its done through vegetation, through walls, behind trees, uphill, downhill etc etc.

Because a .25" hole through and through is so much better than a roughly cone-shaped wound path that starts at .25" and goes as wide as 3-6", and still goes 12-14" deep, right?


Right?

Warp
11-05-2012, 19:24
Because a .25" hole through and through is so much better than a roughly cone-shaped wound path that starts at .25" and goes as wide as 3-6", and still goes 12-14" deep, right?


Right?

Does this happen every time?

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 19:44
Does this happen every time?

Depends on the projectile and impact velocity. Some of the heavier OTM and JHP loads (like the TAP T2, Mk. 262 and TSX loads) are known for being VERY consistent in expansion or fragmentation at the proper velocity. However, TAP T2 and Mk. 262 are very capable of producing very wide wound channels when they impact above their fragmentation floor, along with several others.

Edit to add: This link (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest6/Test6.htm)has some well-documented testing with Mk. 262 from Black Hills.

To quote the write-up:

"Total penetration averaged 12.5"

Despite the excellent fragmentation, substantial bullet mass typically was retained in one or two larger lead/copper fragments, which typically established the farthest penetration frontiers in the gel. The authors believe this behavior represents a positive sign for this round's tissue performance after barrier interaction.

Neck length was generally around 1.6".

The largest recovered fragments typically appear to be the bullet's base and rear jacket structures.

Wound cavity size at its extreme was typically 3.875" at inch 4-5 and numerous fragments were deposited at the extreme edges of these fractures, indicating high tissue disruption potential even at the frontiers of the round's tissue disruption."

Warp
11-05-2012, 19:46
Depends on the projectile and impact velocity. Some of the heavier OTM and JHP loads (like the TAP T2, Mk. 262 and TSX loads) are known for being VERY consistent in expansion or fragmentation at the proper velocity. However, TAP T2 and Mk. 262 are very capable of producing very wide wound channels when they impact above their fragmentation floor, along with several others.

Speaking of TAP T2...where can that be purchased?

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 19:55
Speaking of TAP T2...where can that be purchased?

Heh, sorry. The only two ways I know of are direct through Hornady LE sales (LE/MIL credentials required), or catching some floating around from a department, agency, or individual cleaning out stocks. I managed to get just over 300 rounds about 2 years ago from a shop in my hometown that had acquired about 3,000 rounds of it from a local agency. It was apparently left over from a testing program they did. I wish I had gotten more, honestly. I also wish I could find a similar stock of 5.56 Optimized somewhere for sale.... :steamed:

Warp
11-05-2012, 20:01
Heh, sorry. The only two ways I know of are direct through Hornady LE sales (LE/MIL credentials required), or catching some floating around from a department, agency, or individual cleaning out stocks. I managed to get just over 300 rounds about 2 years ago from a shop in my hometown that had acquired about 3,000 rounds of it from a local agency. It was apparently left over from a testing program they did. I wish I had gotten more, honestly. I also wish I could find a similar stock of 5.56 Optimized somewhere for sale.... :steamed:

That's what I thought.

And is why my top defensive 5.56 loads, that I actually acquired, or RA556B and 55gr Gold Dot (24455). But I tend towards wanting barrier blind. It's easy enough to get TAP FPD, so I have tiny bit of that.

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 20:06
That's what I thought.

And is why my top defensive 5.56 loads, that I actually acquired, or RA556B and 55gr Gold Dot (24455). But I tend towards wanting barrier blind. It's easy enough to get TAP FPD, so I have tiny bit of that.

TAP T2 isn't really "barrier blind", IMO. There are other loads for that, like the Black Hills 55gr TSX barrier load, and some of the bonded soft points.

Warp
11-05-2012, 20:10
TAP T2 isn't really "barrier blind", IMO. There are other loads for that, like the Black Hills 55gr TSX barrier load, and some of the bonded soft points.

Yes. But if I had some T2 I'd consider loading it while the rifle sits in my bedroom.

I go by this

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 20:18
Yes. But if I had some T2 I'd consider loading it while the rifle sits in my bedroom.

I go by this

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

Doc's write-ups are an excellent reference.

glock031
11-05-2012, 20:48
Lots of guys selling off thier Hornady Tap 75gr in favor of BH 50gr TSX. Molon just dumped his supply of tap 75gr on the EE.

I'm stocked up heavily on SSA 5.56 70gr TSX.

BTW: I've worked 34 years in a family owned and operated slaughter house. I've killed many a thousands of livestock. One 22 cal shot center brain will drop a one ton bull like a bag of bricks each and every time. Been there done that more times then i care to remember.

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 20:54
Lots of guys selling off thier Hornady Tap 75gr in favor of BH 50gr TSX. Molon just dumped his supply of tap 75gr on the EE.

I'm stocked up heavily on SSA 5.56 70gr TSX.

BTW: I've worked 34 years in a family owned and operated slaughter house. I've killed many a thousands of livestock. One 22 cal shot center brain will drop a one ton bull like a bag of bricks each and every time. Been there done that more times then i care to remember.

I can't quite justify $1.50 at SSA's pricing for the 70gr ammo. Ive seen it cheaper, but wasn't able to get an order in before it disappeared. I wish BHA would start selling 70gr TSX loads to civilians, especially at 5.56 pressure. All of their current production is going straight to the military, though.

Warp
11-05-2012, 21:02
I can't quite justify $1.50 at SSA's pricing for the 70gr ammo. Ive seen it cheaper, but wasn't able to get an order in before it disappeared. I wish BHA would start selling 70gr TSX loads to civilians, especially at 5.56 pressure. All of their current production is going straight to the military, though.

About the SSA...I found a thread about it on M4C. Apparently they don't seal top or bottom (primer or mouth) and they don't crimp the primers. Some people, including Doc, say real deal/defensive use cartridges should have those things. As a result I'm keeping my "top tier" all around defensive list as TBBC, RA556B/Z3313, and the 50gr TSX, as reported by doc in that sticky (and elsewhere)

I like my Gold Dots though. They will work, and I got my hands on the 5.56 version that they apparently don't make any more

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 21:04
About the SSA...I found a thread about it on M4C. Apparently they don't seal top or bottom (primer or mouth) and they don't crimp the primers. Some people, including Doc, say real deal/defensive use cartridges should have those things. As a result I'm keeping my "top tier" all around defensive list as TBBC, RA556B/Z3313, and the 50gr TSX, as reported by doc in that sticky (and elsewhere)

I like my Gold Dots though. They will work, and I got my hands on the 5.56 version that they apparently don't make any more

Interesting. I've been looking hard at the 62GR and 55GR BHA TSX loads for my SBR. I'll probably skip the barrier version, as the opening velocity is significantly higher with that projectile than the other TSX pills.

Gunnut 45/454
11-05-2012, 21:04
MississipVol
I have a bunch of XM193 for SHTF. Big plus is I reload so I can regenerate my stock or load heavy OTM ammo. But for general killing of Zombies the 55 FMJ will do just fine.:supergrin:

K. Foster
11-05-2012, 21:07
There are no magic bullets. It’s shot placement that counts.
That said, some bullets are better than others. Pick the right tool for the job.

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 21:08
There are no magic bullets. Itís shot placement that counts.
That said, some bullets are better than others. Pick the right tool for the job.


4 sentences to nail it. Well done.

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 21:15
The TSX does look nasty and still works from extremely short barrels:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/223%20Barrier%20Rounds.htm

Not a good choice for around the home though, IMO. If I really wanted barrier blind stuff I'd probably go with .223 55gr Gold Dots. Inexpensive and easy to find.

Warp
11-05-2012, 21:28
I don't get the point of barrier blind 5.56/.223 rounds if the odds are you won't be dealing with barriers. Yes they are better with dealing with glass and such but for unobstructed shows something like 75gr TAP or Mk 262 is much better. No? And even those can lay down some hurt even through barriers, just won't penetrate as far.

And yes, the potential of needing a barrier shot is almost always a possibility. But I'm not sure it's worth reduced effectiveness in the case of not needing it.

Correct. For an unobstructed shot on a soft target a BTHP, especially something like a TAP, is probably better. But the barrier blind load, on an unobstructed soft target, is still very good. And those non barrier loads can really lose a LOT of their effectiveness through a barrier.

I like having a "takes all comers" round to load. My rifle is HD/SD/SHTF and also goes with me on the road. I like having one load that can do it all, and do it all well.

Although, as I have probably mentioned, I might go ahead and load TAP into the rifle for when it sits in my bedroom and swap the mag out for one of the bonded JSPs when I go somewhere with it. Undecided.

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 21:34
The TSX does look nasty and still works from extremely short barrels:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/223%20Barrier%20Rounds.htm

Not a good choice for around the home though, IMO. If I really wanted barrier blind stuff I'd probably go with .223 55gr Gold Dots. Inexpensive and easy to find.

14" isn't excessive penetration, really.

Warp
11-05-2012, 21:35
14" isn't excessive penetration, really.

Agree. It is not.

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 21:58
Has anyone seen tests of Mk 262 Mod 1 through barriers? I would assume it should be fairly similar to Hornady's 75gr OTM stuff (which is well documented at www.hornadyle.com (http://www.hornadyle.com) BTW)

Big Bird
11-05-2012, 22:00
Because a .25" hole through and through is so much better than a roughly cone-shaped wound path that starts at .25" and goes as wide as 3-6", and still goes 12-14" deep, right?


Right?

In my experience with people and animals no rifle round of any reasonable velocity leaves a .25" hole. ANYTHING over 2400 fps is going to be much more devastating.

Penetration is king. You can argue with me with all the internet paper arguments and box o truth crap you want. I'm telling you from experience. You want complete penetration...both sides. Every time.

You want something that's got the juice to keep going in the front, through the spine/shoulder/whatever and out the back. If you need more than one that's fine.

Again, you might have to shoot through stuff. You might have to shoot through other people. You might have to shoot through walls. But penetration is the #1 criteria for an effective stick of ammunition of ANY kind. Nothing else matters if you can't get the bullet deep enough into the target. That's simple enough to understand in theory but people get bogged down when its applied to real world applications.

When I hunt with handguns my experience is that nothing beats penetration. I will do as much damage with a Keith style hard cast SWC as a Hornady SXT JHP and I will get complete penetration on a deer with the cast bullet out of a .45LC or a .44 Mag. Two holes is always better than one. ALWAYS... I've used both and have done autopsy's on deer killed by both. On dangerous game like bears I'll take the hardcast bullet any day of the week over a JHP/JSP for one and only one reason. Superior penetration.

Go to Africa. Hunt with a professional guide. Shoot any of the dangerous species and look and see what the guide puts in his double rifle to walk up and check the animal...a FMJ solid. Why? Penetration. No other reason. He knows he wants to penetrate bone and hide and with complete confidence. He could care less about wound cavities or energy transfer. He wants to make holes all the way through the beast.

elliotb33
11-05-2012, 22:04
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rd-box-556mm-winchester-64-grain-nosler-bonded-bsb-soft-point-zq3313

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/30-rd-sleeve-556-mm-open-tip-62-grain-hollow-point-winchester-fbi-contract-zq3314

Thoughts on those 2?
5.56mm Winchester 64 grain Nosler Bonded BSB Soft Point ZQ3313
And
5.56 mm Open Tip 62 grain Hollow Point Winchester FBI contract ZQ3314

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 22:06
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rd-box-556mm-winchester-64-grain-nosler-bonded-bsb-soft-point-zq3313

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/30-rd-sleeve-556-mm-open-tip-62-grain-hollow-point-winchester-fbi-contract-zq3314

Thoughts on those 2?
5.56mm Winchester 64 grain Nosler Bonded BSB Soft Point ZQ3313
And
5.56 mm Open Tip 62 grain Hollow Point Winchester FBI contract ZQ3314

Recent thread about those:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450952

elliotb33
11-05-2012, 22:07
Recent thread about those:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450952

O thanks, will read.

Warp
11-05-2012, 22:09
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rd-box-556mm-winchester-64-grain-nosler-bonded-bsb-soft-point-zq3313

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/30-rd-sleeve-556-mm-open-tip-62-grain-hollow-point-winchester-fbi-contract-zq3314

Thoughts on those 2?
5.56mm Winchester 64 grain Nosler Bonded BSB Soft Point ZQ3313
And
5.56 mm Open Tip 62 grain Hollow Point Winchester FBI contract ZQ3314

I have two boxes of the ZQ3313 on the way. The Q3313 should be exactly the same as the Ranger RA556B (which I just received 4 boxes of). However, the Z indicates that it has been reclassified, and we don't know why it was reclassified (and probably can't find out). The ammo should still function and be safe, but possible reasons to be reclassified include, but are not limited to: Low pressure/low velocity, visual defects, fail accuracy test, etc.

The ZQ3314 I do not recommend. There is a gel test of it somewhere...I think on M4C...that I came across in my research. It's a training load for a reason, it seems. The test I saw it just didn't have the penetration necessary.

cowboy1964
11-05-2012, 22:09
He wants to make holes all the way through the beast.

That may work for African big game (and I'm not even sure they really want through-and-through, but just reach the vitals) but I'd like to see one law enforcement agency cite that as a reason for choosing their duty ammo.

Warp
11-05-2012, 22:11
That may work for African big game but I'd like to see one law enforcement agency cite that as a reason for choosing their duty ammo.

Well, as we all know LEAs don't always make their decisions based on what we think they should.

If you are super exceptionally worried about hitting an innocent with a bullet after it passes through your target (very rare in defensive shoots, it seems), then you don't want a lot of penetration. If you want to stop the threat as quickly as possible, you want to err on the side of more penetration, not less.

I could even argue that more penetration is safer for innocent bystanders because fewer shots are likely to be needed, thus lowering the biggest risk to bystanders: missed shots

elliotb33
11-05-2012, 22:20
I have two boxes of the ZQ3313 on the way. The Q3313 should be exactly the same as the Ranger RA556B (which I just received 4 boxes of). However, the Z indicates that it has been reclassified, and we don't know why it was reclassified (and probably can't find out). The ammo should still function and be safe, but possible reasons to be reclassified include, but are not limited to: Low pressure/low velocity, visual defects, fail accuracy test, etc.

The ZQ3314 I do not recommend. There is a gel test of it somewhere...I think on M4C...that I came across in my research. It's a training load for a reason, it seems. The test I saw it just didn't have the penetration necessary.

Will you be testing the 2 boxes your ordered for velocity + accuracy? I would guess that all they have in stock was reclassified for the same reason?
Was about to order some from sgammo but the bold has me worried. That and they no longer have any 44 mag, and no Aguila 22LR SuperMax SP.

Thanks!

glock031
11-05-2012, 22:25
I can't quite justify $1.50 at SSA's pricing for the 70gr ammo. Ive seen it cheaper, but wasn't able to get an order in before it disappeared. I wish BHA would start selling 70gr TSX loads to civilians, especially at 5.56 pressure. All of their current production is going straight to the military, though.

It's $1.15 a rd when in stock at ATG.

http://www.ssarmory.com/images/products/detail/556_70gr_Barnes_TSX.jpg

WoodenPlank
11-05-2012, 22:29
In my experience with people and animals no rifle round of any reasonable velocity leaves a .25" hole. ANYTHING over 2400 fps is going to be much more devastating.

Penetration is king. You can argue with me with all the internet paper arguments and box o truth crap you want. I'm telling you from experience. You want complete penetration...both sides. Every time.

You want something that's got the juice to keep going in the front, through the spine/shoulder/whatever and out the back. If you need more than one that's fine.

Again, you might have to shoot through stuff. You might have to shoot through other people. You might have to shoot through walls. But penetration is the #1 criteria for an effective stick of ammunition of ANY kind. Nothing else matters if you can't get the bullet deep enough into the target. That's simple enough to understand in theory but people get bogged down when its applied to real world applications.

When I hunt with handguns my experience is that nothing beats penetration. I will do as much damage with a Keith style hard cast SWC as a Hornady SXT JHP and I will get complete penetration on a deer with the cast bullet out of a .45LC or a .44 Mag. Two holes is always better than one. ALWAYS... I've used both and have done autopsy's on deer killed by both. On dangerous game like bears I'll take the hardcast bullet any day of the week over a JHP/JSP for one and only one reason. Superior penetration.

Go to Africa. Hunt with a professional guide. Shoot any of the dangerous species and look and see what the guide puts in his double rifle to walk up and check the animal...a FMJ solid. Why? Penetration. No other reason. He knows he wants to penetrate bone and hide and with complete confidence. He could care less about wound cavities or energy transfer. He wants to make holes all the way through the beast.

There's a LARGE difference between hunting large game or dangerous animals and what's needed in an SD load. Penetration is needed to a point - deep enough to reliably hit vital organs, even from poor angles or through intervening limbs. Eventually penetration becomes a liability, though.

When hunting, the goal is a quick and clean kill of the animal. When defending yourself, the goal is putting the other person(s) out of the fight as fast as possible. The mechanics needed to accomplish these goals, while similar, are NOT identical.

If you're shooting through a wall, you're doing it wrong, as you can't be fully sure of your target, or what lies beyond it.

If you are shooing through someone to hit someone else, you are doing it wrong.

elliotb33
11-05-2012, 22:33
If you are shooing through someone to hit someone else, you are doing it wrong.

****, I've been doing it wrong. :homer:

Travclem
11-05-2012, 22:38
This thread makes me glad I reload. My 75gr. OTM load at 2760fps costs me around $0.31/round. It is absolutely devastating on hogs. To hell with the $1/round ****.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Warp
11-05-2012, 23:05
Will you be testing the 2 boxes your ordered for velocity + accuracy? I would guess that all they have in stock was reclassified for the same reason?
Was about to order some from sgammo but the bold has me worried. That and they no longer have any 44 mag, and no Aguila 22LR SuperMax SP.

Thanks!

I do not have a chronograph. I might get one soon, I might not. There might be somebody with one this weekend, there might not.

I will definitely be testing the accuracy and basic function.

I will be doing that this Saturday/Sunday, for both RA556B and ZQ3313.

Big Bird
11-06-2012, 05:49
When hunting, the goal is a quick and clean kill of the animal. When defending yourself, the goal is putting the other person(s) out of the fight as fast as possible. The mechanics needed to accomplish these goals, while similar, are NOT identical.


I can't believe I just read a mound of manure like that.


So please tell us...what exactly are the differences between between putting an animal down quickly and putting a person down quickly?

Big Bird
11-06-2012, 06:02
M193 and M855 ball ammo has probably collectively been used to take the lives of well over a hundred thousand people. If you add up the body counts from small arms fire in Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Afghanistan, Israel/Lebanon etc etc etc.

It works fine.

mjkeat
11-06-2012, 09:25
M193 and M855 ball ammo has probably collectively been used to take the lives of well over a hundred thousand people. If you add up the body counts from small arms fire in Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Afghanistan, Israel/Lebanon etc etc etc.

It works fine.

And continues to do so but it means nothing. It is far from ideal. And is the main reason we have the "5.56 is not adequate talk surface now and then.

If our line soldiers were allowed to use a ballistic tipped round they would be much more effective.

I remember when we ran low on ammunition and SOF gave us some. It's different.

MississipVol
11-06-2012, 09:25
The one thing I will tell everyone is there is no substitute for good penetration.

That's what she said!

:rofl:

MississipVol
11-06-2012, 09:33
By the way, what about those Hornady Zombie Max rounds?

I know it is a gimmicky product but its also $5 cheaper/box that most other similar rounds. I've seen a video on You Tube on it where he used ballistic gel and it seems to do pretty well. Any thoughts

Here is that YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCPjJTtDS6g

mjkeat
11-06-2012, 09:39
You can purchase the same stuff w/o all the BS packaging.

MississipVol
11-06-2012, 09:45
You can purchase the same stuff w/o all the BS packaging.

Yeah but locally the Zombie Max is $1 cheaper than the regular boxed stuff. While I am not at all impressed by the packaging, it doesn't bother me so much that I am willing to pay $1 to do without it.

So I am just wondering if it is a decent defensive round since its cheaper than many of the others.

mjkeat
11-06-2012, 10:10
Cheaper is cheaper. Being that it's the same as their V-Max I would save my $1 per box. Maybe just load your mags before you leave home and burn the boxes in the backyard late at night, lol.

bmoore
11-06-2012, 11:11
Polymer tip rounds are designed to save pelts, tiny entrance no exit. When they hit shoulders on coyotes they "splash" offering zero penetration and a massive entrance. Dogs run forever after those hits. When they hit behind the shoulder where they should in the ribs they typically work well. I have shot more than a few coyote with Vmax out of my 22-250 and seen then shot with 223 Vmax when calling for people.

I told the story once here about the guy I had who came home from ground squirrel hunting. He capped the muzzle of his bolt 223 rifle with his hand, jumped out of his truck, the rifle butt struck the ground and the round went off. The muzzle was pointed exactly toward his face, the round went in his hand, emptied the cavity of his hand and fragmented immediately. The bullet frags barely entered the skin on his face. It looked bad because all his hand tissue/bone was all over his face and in his hair, his wife was screaming to dispatch that it was a head shot. He was totally fine besides his hand. It was a handload polymer tip that he had in the rifle.

Pointed soft point, HP or 5.56 ball ammo would be my choice.

MississipVol
11-06-2012, 11:36
Polymer tip rounds are designed to save pelts, tiny entrance no exit. When they hit shoulders on coyotes they "splash" offering zero penetration and a massive entrance. Dogs run forever after those hits. When they hit behind the shoulder where they should in the ribs they typically work well. I have shot more than a few coyote with Vmax out of my 22-250 and seen then shot with 223 Vmax when calling for people.

I told the story once here about the guy I had who came home from ground squirrel hunting. He capped the muzzle of his bolt 223 rifle with his hand, jumped out of his truck, the rifle butt struck the ground and the round went off. The muzzle was pointed exactly toward his face, the round went in his hand, emptied the cavity of his hand and fragmented immediately. The bullet frags barely entered the skin on his face. It looked bad because all his hand tissue/bone was all over his face and in his hair, his wife was screaming to dispatch that it was a head shot. He was totally fine besides his hand. It was a handload polymer tip that he had in the rifle.

Pointed soft point, HP or 5.56 ball ammo would be my choice.

Crazy story!

MississipVol
11-06-2012, 11:40
Thanks for everyone's advice. I think I got a clear direction on how to proceed.

I went today and got 2 20-rd boxes of Hornady TAP 75 gr. I told the guy at the LGS counter that it was my "election day ammo"!

I think I will stock up on this until I have enough to fill up 4 mags and then focus more on range ammo until I have a good supply of that. Then I may gradually add some more defensive ammo beyond that as $ allows.

Thanks for the advice!

cowboy1964
11-06-2012, 12:14
M193 and M855 ball ammo has probably collectively been used to take the lives of well over a hundred thousand people. If you add up the body counts from small arms fire in Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Afghanistan, Israel/Lebanon etc etc etc.

It works fine.

Effectiveness drops off rapidly with distance with those, especially from shorter barrels (and with really short barrels they're not even very effective at short distances). And M855 is notorious for not being very accurate on top of that.

Big Bird
11-06-2012, 13:29
Effectiveness drops off rapidly with distance with those, especially from shorter barrels (and with really short barrels they're not even very effective at short distances). And M855 is notorious for not being very accurate on top of that.


Inside of 150 yards its gonna do the deal. With a SBR maybe not. So if you own a papered gun buy the 75/77 grain stuff. Its not like there are a ton of people with 10.5 ARs. I have one. But I prefer the 16" gun for the performance factor AND inside the noise from a 10.5 gun is a disadvantage even with my Surefire Mini hanging on the end.

For HD/SD ranges its not going to matter. If you are engaging live targets at 300 or 400 yards with a 5.56 carbine you shouldn't be shooting you should be getting the hell out of the AO because you have the wrong weapon for the job regardless of what you've got in the magazine.

Big Bird
11-06-2012, 13:33
VMAX and Varmint rounds suck for self defense. I can't tell you how many groundhogs and coyotes I've shot with Hornady Vmax and Sierra Varmintmaster rounds. In a .223 they don't even penetrate a good size groundhog...they blow up inside. Same with a coyote. And the average coyote body is about the thickness of a loaf of bread when you get done skinning it...

I've shot dozens and dozens of varmints and they only redeeming feature of a varmint bullet is the low ricochet factor.

bmoore
11-06-2012, 16:33
VMAX and Varmint rounds suck for self defense. I can't tell you how many groundhogs and coyotes I've shot with Hornady Vmax and Sierra Varmintmaster rounds. In a .223 they don't even penetrate a good size groundhog...they blow up inside. Same with a coyote. And the average coyote body is about the thickness of a loaf of bread when you get done skinning it...

I've shot dozens and dozens of varmints and they only redeeming feature of a varmint bullet is the low ricochet factor.

Word. Same story every time when I call for people with 223's. Coyote gets drilled broadside, chase their tail in a circle twice and take off a ways then crump.

WoodenPlank
11-06-2012, 18:27
I can't believe I just read a mound of manure like that.


So please tell us...what exactly are the differences between between putting an animal down quickly and putting a person down quickly?

So, instead of coming back with facts or data, you result to insults? Nice.

Since you asked so politely (and for the benefit of those reading) I will explain the difference.

When hunting, the goal is to take the animal quickly and cleanly. While it is ideal for the animal to drop dead immediately, this is not always going to happen. Also, you can't always plan for shot angle. On a deer, a shot from behind may have to penetrate 18" or more of tissue to reach vital organs (the "Texas heart shot you referenced earlier). A shoulder shot may not need as much penetration, but it may have to go through shoulder blade, etc. Having both entry and exit wounds ensures additional bleeding in case the animal bolts, and can help limit how far the animal makes it. In additon, severe over-penetration is a little less of a problem since the norm isn't to hit the animal 5-6 times, and you are somewhat less concerned about bystanders behind the target (if you are paying attention, anyway) like you can be in a defensive shoot.

In short, two holes = good, as animal bleeds faster, doesn't suffer as long, and hopefully doesn't run as far.

In a self defense situation, your goal is not to kill quickly, but to stop the fight quickly. You want to incapacitate the other guy. Pentration is still needed to ensure your projectile will reach vital organs (especially through intervening limbs or objects, such as a weapon held in front of the check). However, too much penetration becomes a liability, as now you potentially have that bullet exiting your attacker, and striking an innocent bystander. To quote the old line, every bullet that goes down range has a lawyer attached to it.

A through-and-through shot on an attacker may leave them bleeding and dying, but still in the fight. Even if the scumbag has a guaranteed one-way trip to the morgue, that extra 10 seconds he has left before he bleeds out can be more than enough to kill you. I'd rather have the bad guy on the ground from a single entrance wound and not fighting, while I'm still on ym feet, than his knife in my chest as we both bleed to death on the floor.

In short, stop the threat NOW, and try to limit possible collateral damage to bystanders.

The mechanics are similar (shutting down CNS structures), but the urgency of stopping versus death are somewhat different. Animals need to die quickly, criminals need to stop quickly.

M193 and M855 ball ammo has probably collectively been used to take the lives of well over a hundred thousand people. If you add up the body counts from small arms fire in Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Afghanistan, Israel/Lebanon etc etc etc.

It works fine.

So by that logic, we should all carry 9mm pistols loaded with NATO ball ammo, as that's what the military uses?


VMAX and Varmint rounds suck for self defense. I can't tell you how many groundhogs and coyotes I've shot with Hornady Vmax and Sierra Varmintmaster rounds. In a .223 they don't even penetrate a good size groundhog...they blow up inside. Same with a coyote. And the average coyote body is about the thickness of a loaf of bread when you get done skinning it...

I've shot dozens and dozens of varmints and they only redeeming feature of a varmint bullet is the low ricochet factor.

Hey, something we can actually agree on.

Thanks for everyone's advice. I think I got a clear direction on how to proceed.

I went today and got 2 20-rd boxes of Hornady TAP 75 gr. I told the guy at the LGS counter that it was my "election day ammo"!

I think I will stock up on this until I have enough to fill up 4 mags and then focus more on range ammo until I have a good supply of that. Then I may gradually add some more defensive ammo beyond that as $ allows.

Thanks for the advice!

Not a bad plan at all. Just make sure you run some of that 75 grain through YOUR rifle, and make sure it groups well and runs well.