My new Rock River National Match A4 showed up [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : My new Rock River National Match A4 showed up


ithaca_deerslayer
11-05-2012, 22:04
Here is my first AR :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8068/8160006645_6157382cd6_b.jpg

Any tips or suggestions before I shoot it?

USMCsilver
11-05-2012, 22:08
Nice. Run a bore brush and let the lead fly!

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

ithaca_deerslayer
11-06-2012, 08:28
Ran 20 UMC 55gr fmj through it this morning. Sweet!

No jams, no problems. Destroyed the bull's eye from 50 yards, kneeling.

That rear peep is tight to see through. I think it is .030 (if I recall right).

This is one nose heavy mofo. But I knew that going in. Weighs 10 pounds. It shoots exactly how I wanted, smooth.

I don't have any premo ammo yet, but I'll still bench this stuff when I get the chance. Precision iron sights are still pretty new to me. I'm used to scopes and a only a few open iron sighted rifles or shotguns. I'll switch to scope eventually (Christmas present?), but right now I want to see what I can do with irons.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-06-2012, 14:07
Nothing special at all, but here's my targets at 50 and 100 yards while sitting at a bench. Man, irons are tough to see with!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7267/8161985265_b7dcf35de0_b.jpg

Need just a little more light through the peep. Even then, so hard to be precise putting that front post on the target. I'm so spoiled by having 9x magnification, or better.

This is a real challenge, a whole new ball game in shooting.

Note that it won't be till I get a scope that I'll any chance of ever getting sub MOA shooting from this gun :)

Big Bird
11-06-2012, 14:38
Concentrate on the front sight. Forget the target. The rear sight will take care of itself. Pay VERY close attention to this tippy-top of the front sight. You will notice you can get very refined in terms of how you can center the front sight on the bull (which is smaller than the sight) and also pay attention to how much black you cover... Pumpkin on a post but you'll catch yourself creeping up into the black.

Your shots are spread out twice as much from top to bottom as from side to side. That's from not paying attention to the front sight post...creeping up into the black or leaving some daylight between the bottom of the bull and the post.

The target should be a blurr. The front sight in focus and crisp. You wouldn't think it would work but it does.

Front sight--Front Sight--Front Sight.... Sqeeeeeeeze the trigger.
Dry fire practice is your friend.

The match is won or lost in the 200 YARD offhand event. Practice dry-fire offhand the most... Shoot a whole 20 shot event in your kitchen with a small black bullseye on the fridge from ten feet away.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-06-2012, 15:40
Big Bird, thanks for the help.

I'm used to focusing on the front sight because of pistol shooting. The trouble is I can barely see the bulls eye at 100 yards. And I can barely see the top of the front s
post. And I have very little idea of where the top of the front post is in relation to the bull's eye.

Not that it will solve the problem, but I think a slightly larger peep would allow more light through and maybe make the front post a little more crisp, and not so dark and shadowy.

How easy is it to change out the peep? Would it be insane to drill out the existing peep a tad? Shiny metal inside the hole can't be good, but just wondering if that is an approach anyone takes.

KalashniKEV
11-06-2012, 15:48
The trouble is I can barely see the bulls eye at 100 yards.

What does it say on the top of that target?

"Official..."

:whistling:

:supergrin:

bmoore
11-06-2012, 15:50
Congrats on your new rifle. 20 inch rifles have a special place in my heart. Lol

Big Bird
11-06-2012, 16:25
Many of the NM peeps have apertures that will unscrew and you can put a different size peep in its place. Look on the front of the peep and if it has what looks like a screwdriver slot across it you can probably unscrew it and buy a larger size. Try it in bright light before you do...a smaller peep is more accurate if you can use it!

If it won't unscrew you can buy a replacement aperture that will with an assortment of peep sizes for not a lot of dough.

The Pirate
11-06-2012, 17:30
Nice! I hope you enjoy it, I'm sure it will shoot to your expectations once you get used to it. It ain't shooting bad at all considering your sight issues.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

USMCsilver
11-06-2012, 17:56
Congrats on your new rifle. 20 inch rifles have a special place in my heart. Lol

Mine, too. I still say I wanna get a "classic" rifle, just for sentimental reasons. :embarassed:

KalashniKEV
11-06-2012, 18:06
Mine, too. I still say I wanna get a "classic" rifle, just for sentimental reasons. :embarassed:

That's why I got my "Basic Training Musket."

:supergrin:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMG_1448_zps6e55d259.jpg

USMCsilver
11-06-2012, 18:08
That's why I got my "Basic Training Musket."

:supergrin:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMG_1448_zps6e55d259.jpg

That's exactly what I need. Where's an issue sling? :dunno:

KalashniKEV
11-06-2012, 18:20
that's exactly what i need. Where's an issue sling? :dunno:

sling?!?!

Wtf?

;)

smokin762
11-06-2012, 18:20
Big Bird summed it up.

Enjoy your practice with it.
Maybe some of these video's can help you. I just enjoy watching them myself. :cool:

Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship Part 1 - YouTube

Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship Part 2 - YouTube

bmoore
11-06-2012, 18:33
That's why I got my "Basic Training Musket."

:supergrin:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMG_1448_zps6e55d259.jpg

Beauty. Colt? Fulton armory upper?

xArcher
11-06-2012, 18:56
Here is my first AR :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8068/8160006645_6157382cd6_b.jpg

Any tips or suggestions before I shoot it?

Swab/brush the barrel and go shoot it.

I've got a RR NM and love it. Mine has a flash suppressor and bayonet lug. Otherwise they are the same.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-06-2012, 19:14
Big Bird summed it up.

Enjoy your practice with it.
Maybe some of these video's can help you. I just enjoy watching them myself. :cool:

Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship Part 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITp2OM7Qzqs&feature=related)

Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TvmWdDRZ0s&feature=relmfu)

Awesome videos. I have to say that I already know that instructional content . It is vitually the same as the NRA instruction. But it is great to see and think about how well I am, or am not, applying those fundamentals :)

So yes, I believe it does help to watch these videos.

smokin762
11-07-2012, 17:07
Awesome videos. I have to say that I already know that instructional content . It is vitually the same as the NRA instruction. But it is great to see and think about how well I am, or am not, applying those fundamentals :)

So yes, I believe it does help to watch these videos.


Sometimes while watching these video’s I will practice dry firing. It kind of gets me a little more in the spirit of things.

I also like to send these video’s to new shooters. Sometime it helps them.

Maybe someday we will bump into each other up at Camp Perry. Or at least at the CMP store. :supergrin: :wavey:

itstime
11-07-2012, 17:13
Nice shooter there. I loveine. Enjoy. All the tips are good ones.

smokin762
11-07-2012, 17:18
Awesome videos. I have to say that I already know that instructional content . It is vitually the same as the NRA instruction. But it is great to see and think about how well I am, or am not, applying those fundamentals :)

So yes, I believe it does help to watch these videos.


I found my few seconds of fame. I was looking around YouTube for some SAFS videos and I found myself riding on one of the trailers in the beginning SAFS trailer.

This was before I lost 50 lbs. :wow::embarassed:

CMP SAFS 2010 trailer - YouTube

RICKSR
11-07-2012, 17:21
Dude. You need to Match the bullet weight to the twist rate in order to get and obtain the best accuracy from this rifle. It also needs to be broken in properly if you want it to shoot it's best. Read up on breaking in a new rifle/barrel. I would personally recommend 68/69 & 70 gr bullets for best if not maybe even the 77 Gr will be best. You have to experiment and try all kinds of loads & bullets,powders etc before you can really find out what your gun likes. You have to do your homework or you'll never really know. I have an original Colt H-Bar with a 1-7 twist. It likes nothing better than the heavier bullets,68-69 etc gr.s and believe it or not at the time i got best results using Winchester 748 ball powder. So good luck and give it hell. Regards,Rick Sr.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-07-2012, 18:57
I found my few seconds of fame. I was looking around YouTube for some SAFS videos and I found myself riding on one of the trailers in the beginning SAFS trailer.

This was before I lost 50 lbs. :wow::embarassed:

CMP SAFS 2010 trailer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK9wpDsBldo)
White shirt and hat, dark pants, dark scruff on your chin?

ithaca_deerslayer
11-07-2012, 19:00
Dude. You need to Match the bullet weight to the twist rate in order to get and obtain the best accuracy from this rifle. It also needs to be broken in properly if you want it to shoot it's best. Read up on breaking in a new rifle/barrel. I would personally recommend 68/69 & 70 gr bullets for best if not maybe even the 77 Gr will be best. You have to experiment and try all kinds of loads & bullets,powders etc before you can really find out what your gun likes. You have to do your homework or you'll never really know. I have an original Colt H-Bar with a 1-7 twist. It likes nothing better than the heavier bullets,68-69 etc gr.s and believe it or not at the time i got best results using Winchester 748 ball powder. So good luck and give it hell. Regards,Rick Sr.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I ordered a scope mount so I can test the gun out. Without a scope, I could shoot .204 Ruger through it and not notice a difference in my shots :)

ithaca_deerslayer
11-07-2012, 19:07
What scope should I put on this rifle?

Brian Brazier
11-07-2012, 19:20
I want another 20" I had one a few years ago but had to sell it.

smokin762
11-08-2012, 18:50
White shirt and hat, dark pants, dark scruff on your chin?

No. I was a different guy. :supergrin:

ithaca_deerslayer
11-14-2012, 21:24
Here it is with a Rock River 1 piece scope mount and Leupold AR 3-9x40mm :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8484/8186348687_23fefe166b_b.jpg

ithaca_deerslayer
11-14-2012, 21:38
I also got some screw in apertures from Bushmaster, which are threaded the same.

Rock River has two hooded choices, the .030" that came with mine and is too small for me to see well out of, and a .040". With either of those, you can't use the 2nd larger aperture that is there and would flip up but is blocked by the match hood.

The hooded aperture screws out, and can be replaced by a RR different size, or a Busmaster. The nice thing (for my purpose) about the Bushmaster ones is they come in either hooded or flush like a button. With the flush one screwed into the threaded aperture hole, you can also flip up and use the second much larger stock aperture that comes with the RR national match sight. I ordered a .040 and .052 and liked the .052 so have that currently screwed into my carry handle sight. I don't know what the large hole aperture is, but I'm guessing something like .125 or maybe .200 :)

Anyone know what size the apertures typically are on an M-16?

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 21:46
Anyone know what size the apertures typically are on an M-16?

You are a more dedicated shooter than I am. I got an A2 upper receiver with a NM rear sight and an A1 upper receiver with an A1 aperture and I replaced them both with A2 apertures. I couldn't allow myself to "try something new." They were just too small for my comfort.

Big Bird
11-15-2012, 06:47
All you ever wanted to know about the standard A2 sight here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/497571_.html

joe0121
11-15-2012, 12:02
When I was in the Marine Corps I put four dots on the rear site to act as a reference point for aligning the front site post. Now a days Troy makes a rear site with the same idea. I suppose it hind sight it is not possible to have placed those four dots exactly correct without cant.
But I qualed Expert all three times I went. And Only missed twice from 500 yards (both in boot camp) My problem came at the 200 standing a few times as the front site transitioned off target I couldn't keep the trigger pressed and held at the same spot and I would flinch or something and send a not so well aim shot exactly 6 inches low.

Trigger control on the Ancient M-16 A2's was a difficult proposition at best. Seems like the weapons I was issued had trigger made out of sand paper. I got out in '07 and I understand the new A4's have much better triggers.

Back then they taught us to center the front site on the target but I always used the lolipop method anyways. Hard to focus on a black front site against a black target.

smokin762
11-15-2012, 15:15
Here it is with a Rock River 1 piece scope mount and Leupold AR 3-9x40mm :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8484/8186348687_23fefe166b_b.jpg


Very nice. :thumbsup:

ithaca_deerslayer
11-15-2012, 16:54
Back then they taught us to center the front site on the target but I always used the lolipop method anyways. Hard to focus on a black front site against a black target.
Thanks, that's good info.

I like the white dot idea, too.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-15-2012, 17:02
All you ever wanted to know about the standard A2 sight here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/497571_.html

Great information on the military sights.

.070 = small
.200 = large

ithaca_deerslayer
11-19-2012, 17:01
Getting better with it, got a couple groups under an inch.

Next time I bench it I'll sandbag it front and back. Here's some targets just resting the front. Feel like I'm not holding steady enough and still moving the scope around too much.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8200372651_b542b0c0ca_b.jpg

ithaca_deerslayer
11-20-2012, 13:35
Did some more shooting today with the Black Hills match HP 77 gr. At 100 yards put 5 into a nice 7/8" group, same low point of aim as yesterday's group.

Then raised it up to get on target and establish my zero for this load. My crappy shooting opened the group up to 1.25", but it is now on target :)

Next, shot a group at 200 yards, keeping my established 100 yard zero. Bullet doesn't drop much. With practice I'll play with keeping the 100 yard zero as baseline, and learning how many clicks to go up for each distance.

I want to get some more of this ammo. Not sure if it is what my gun likes best, but 7/8" groups aren't too bad so far for my lack of shooting skills :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8061/8202951819_0242c0f4d4_b.jpg

ithaca_deerslayer
12-09-2012, 18:25
Shot my best group ever. 1/2" from 100 yards. Decided to try 52gr match hp from Black Hills. This is my first group. High because I was zeroed for 77 grain. I've never shot a group this small before with any rifle. The dime actually covers all the holes :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8079/8258649243_bef7379e8e_b.jpg

After zeroing and shooting a total of 5 groups at this distance the average size was .975". I'm sure I'm the weak link, but my gun does seem to like this ammo just a little better than the 77gr which averages around 1.125". Again, this is with me as the shooter. You could do better :)

ithaca_deerslayer
12-09-2012, 18:36
Also shot 1 group of 52gr at 200 yards, after zeroing at 100 yards. At 1 7/8", this probably the best 200 yard group I've ever shot. Doesn't drop much at this distance. I've got to get more of this ammo and see if the right drift is me or if I can tighten it more toward the center :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8057/8258649189_1654247070_b.jpg

Rooster Rugburn
12-09-2012, 20:35
I_D, that's mean. That's just mean man. The brand whores are going to soil their undies.

IMO, that's good accuracy. Of course with a Noveske or Colt, you can shoot east, the bullet will circumnavigate the globe and come out of the west and hit the target in the same hole, but that's not bad for a 27th tier rifle.

I wonder if a stronger scope would tighten them up? I have a Leupold scope that size, and the size of the crosshairs are bigger than the target. Not extremely precise at those ranges.

faawrenchbndr
12-09-2012, 20:45
Make some targets.......black card stock with white 10" centers

bigmoney890
12-09-2012, 21:04
I_D, that's mean. That's just mean man. The brand whores are going to soil their undies.

IMO, that's good accuracy. Of course with a Noveske or Colt, you can shoot east, the bullet will circumnavigate the globe and come out of the west and hit the target in the same hole, but that's not bad for a 27th tier rifle.


Do you purposely say the words "brand whores" and "fanboys" in every thread just to be an ass, or are you ignorant to the fact that you spew nonsense all the time?

Rooster Rugburn
12-09-2012, 22:04
Do you purposely say the words "brand whores" and "fanboys" in every thread just to be an ass, or are you ignorant to the fact that you spew nonsense all the time?

STFU!!! It's an industry term.

bigmoney890
12-09-2012, 22:11
So you're in the "industry" are you?

ithaca_deerslayer
12-09-2012, 22:23
I_D, that's mean. That's just mean man. The brand whores are going to soil their undies.

IMO, that's good accuracy. Of course with a Noveske or Colt, you can shoot east, the bullet will circumnavigate the globe and come out of the west and hit the target in the same hole, but that's not bad for a 27th tier rifle.

I wonder if a stronger scope would tighten them up? I have a Leupold scope that size, and the size of the crosshairs are bigger than the target. Not extremely precise at those ranges.

Funniest post I've read this week.

Yeah a higher power scope would help. Also could use a good rest. I just sit it at a bench and lay down some boards with a bag of kitty litter on top of that. Thought about buying a lead sled, but figure resting on something, like a fence post is how I'd do most of my real world precision shooting.

As for the scope, higher power costs twice as much and I didn't want my wife to yell at me :) Plus, I've really got to get the scope off soon once I know the ammo, accuracy, and trajectory, so I can put the carry handle back on and work on learning to shoot irons. Well, that's one of my goals :)

As to brand, I've got nothing against Colt. They just don't make this setup. This Rock River has been running fine. No jams, no problems, and seems easy to clean and work with. I'm real pleased with it.

Rooster Rugburn
12-09-2012, 23:10
As for the scope, higher power costs twice as much and I didn't want my wife to yell at me :)

You're a good man. A damned good man.

As to brand, I've got nothing against Colt. They just don't make this setup. This Rock River has been running fine. No jams, no problems, and seems easy to clean and work with. I'm real pleased with it.

I like Colt and BCM too. But if you remember, when you first mentioned this rifle, the brand whores chimed in with the typical, 'save up and buy ...' bull****. Logical adults chimed in that it would be all the rifle you need...... etc. And it is.

Now look at you, shooting it, getting good groups and loving it. What does that tell you? Just like the rational people predicted, it is all the rifle you need. And guess what. If you had spent more on a Noveske or whatever the brand whore favorite is this week, you wouldn't be getting any better groups.

Now you are having fun, posting targets, and the brand whores are sulking. They were wrong again, but they should be used to it by now.

I'm glad it worked out well for you, and you are happy with your purchase.

bmoore
12-09-2012, 23:19
OP- Glad you are enjoying your rifle. A 20" AR is a joy to shoot.

bmoore
12-09-2012, 23:20
You're a good man. A damned good man.



I like Colt and BCM too. But if you remember, when you first mentioned this rifle, the brand whores chimed in with the typical, 'save up and buy ...' bull****. Logical adults chimed in that it would be all the rifle you need...... etc. And it is.

Now look at you, shooting it, getting good groups and loving it. What does that tell you? Just like the rational people predicted, it is all the rifle you need. And guess what. If you had spent more on a Noveske or whatever the brand whore favorite is this week, you wouldn't be getting any better groups.

Now you are having fun, posting targets, and the brand whores are sulking. They were wrong again, but they should be used to it by now.

I'm glad it worked out well for you, and you are happy with your purchase.

Most "brand whore's" are not very concerned about groups. Your a tad clueless.

Foxtrotx1
12-10-2012, 02:39
Most "brand whore's" are not very concerned about groups. Your a tad clueless.

Us brand whores are concerned about reliability in a range of conditions.

TangoFoxtrot
12-10-2012, 05:17
Nothing special at all, but here's my targets at 50 and 100 yards while sitting at a bench. Man, irons are tough to see with!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7267/8161985265_b7dcf35de0_b.jpg

Need just a little more light through the peep. Even then, so hard to be precise putting that front post on the target. I'm so spoiled by having 9x magnification, or better.

This is a real challenge, a whole new ball game in shooting.

Note that it won't be till I get a scope that I'll any chance of ever getting sub MOA shooting from this gun :)
Now you can understand whats going to happen if your optics ever break or a battery dies.....BUIS

bmoore
12-10-2012, 09:20
Us brand whores are concerned about reliability in a range of conditions.

Word, put me in as a fanboy.

MajorD
12-10-2012, 09:23
That is a rifle purpose built to be shot with iron sights- learn it and shoot some high power matches. Quality ammo is a must for a target grade rifle

M&P15T
12-10-2012, 09:37
Now you can understand whats going to happen if your optics ever break or a battery dies.....BUIS

If his optic ever breaks, or it's battery dies, he'll do what anyone else would do.

Fresh batteries, or get a new optic.

NBFD.

Big Bird
12-10-2012, 09:51
You need a bigger bullseye. Not kidding.

That bull is too little to use well with iron sights at 100 or 200 yards.

Also, position shooting prone with irons is easier than off the bench because you can really get tight with the charging handle and snug up to the rear sight. And yes, you can shoot REALLY tight groups from the prone with a proper cuff sling, jacket and glove.

I agree with the quality ammo comment above. But also you need to realize that ammo that can perform to 1 MOA or better in that gun will take you to High Master class with no problem. So don't geek about the load. Get a decent one and go load 1,000 rounds and get to a match. You need a load that produces nice round 3-3.5" 10 shot groups at 300 yards from a hot barrel. If your load does that you are done. Quit messing with it. You are wasting your time and money. Go shoot some matches.

Don't sweat all the brand nonsense on this website. Go shoot a couple of matches a month and in two years you'll need a new barrel and will have worn the anodizing off your receiver to the points its getting shiny around the edges. You'll be a capable marksman with a well used trusted tool on its second barrel and can talk smack to the bozos who wouldn't know the comeups or wind dope for 600 yards if you taped it to their Colt/BCM/Larue/Noveske buttstocks.

mjkeat
12-10-2012, 10:37
Do you purposely say the words "brand whores" and "fanboys" in every thread just to be an ass, or are you ignorant to the fact that you spew nonsense all the time?

STFU!!! It's an industry term.

So you're in the "industry" are you?

I like this kid.

I've noticed the trend as well. Rugburn (probably on his knees and back) has an obsession w/ doing such things.

bigmoney890
12-10-2012, 12:55
I like this kid.

I've noticed the trend as well. Rugburn (probably on his knees and back) has an obsession w/ doing such things.

Haha thanks. And yeah, i've noticed.

Foxtrotx1
12-10-2012, 14:24
You need a bigger bullseye. Not kidding.

That bull is too little to use well with iron sights at 100 or 200 yards.

Also, position shooting prone with irons is easier than off the bench because you can really get tight with the charging handle and snug up to the rear sight. And yes, you can shoot REALLY tight groups from the prone with a proper cuff sling, jacket and glove.

I agree with the quality ammo comment above. But also you need to realize that ammo that can perform to 1 MOA or better in that gun will take you to High Master class with no problem. So don't geek about the load. Get a decent one and go load 1,000 rounds and get to a match. You need a load that produces nice round 3-3.5" 10 shot groups at 300 yards from a hot barrel. If your load does that you are done. Quit messing with it. You are wasting your time and money. Go shoot some matches.

Don't sweat all the brand nonsense on this website. Go shoot a couple of matches a month and in two years you'll need a new barrel and will have worn the anodizing off your receiver to the points its getting shiny around the edges. You'll be a capable marksman with a well used trusted tool on its second barrel and can talk smack to the bozos who wouldn't know the comeups or wind dope for 600 yards if you taped it to their Colt/BCM/Larue/Noveske buttstocks.

Nice generalization. Some of us brand whores know our ****.

My DPMS rifle is accruate, but **** me if it's not over gassed and skipping over rounds from the mag....even with an H2 and m4 action spring.

Big Bird
12-10-2012, 14:41
Nice generalization. Some of us brand whores know our ****.

My DPMS rifle is accruate, but **** me if it's not over gassed and skipping over rounds from the mag....even with an H2 and m4 action spring.

Well, if you know the problem its easy to fix right?

WoodenPlank
12-10-2012, 15:44
Well, if you know the problem its easy to fix right?

Yeah, buy a new upper.

Sent from the USS Sulaco.

ithaca_deerslayer
12-10-2012, 17:15
That is a rifle purpose built to be shot with iron sights- learn it and shoot some high power matches. Quality ammo is a must for a target grade rifle

Handle comes off so a scope can go on :)

What quality ammo will shoot best out of it?

I will get back to irons eventually.

ithaca_deerslayer
12-10-2012, 17:20
You need a load that produces nice round 3-3.5" 10 shot groups at 300 yards from a hot barrel. If your load does that you are done. Quit messing with it. You are wasting your time and money. Go shoot some matches.
.
That's around 1" at 100 yards, right? That's what I'm trying to do is find a load that averages under an inch. 10 shot groups will be a tougher, but good, test.

Foxtrotx1
12-10-2012, 18:27
Well, if you know the problem its easy to fix right?

uh no... over gassing that bad from standard pressure ammo is a sign of soon to be broken parts. The best you could do is throw in an H3 or a 9mm buffer with a sprinco extra strength spring. But that's like putting a band-aid on a laceration.

Big Bird
12-10-2012, 21:51
uh no... over gassing that bad from standard pressure ammo is a sign of soon to be broken parts. The best you could do is throw in an H3 or a 9mm buffer with a sprinco extra strength spring. But that's like putting a band-aid on a laceration.

No. Send the barrel back. If its overgassed the port is probably too large.

Does your bolt lock back on the last round in the magazine or when you single load a magizine?

What did it do when you shot it with a standard carbine buffer?

Big Bird
12-10-2012, 21:57
That's around 1" at 100 yards, right? That's what I'm trying to do is find a load that averages under an inch. 10 shot groups will be a tougher, but good, test.

Yeah kinda. The problem with the 100 yard thing is it really doesn't tell you much about your load/gun. You'll see entirely different behavior with many loads when you get to 300 yards than you saw at 100. This is because bullet dispersion is only rarely linear in my experience. Meaning 1" at 100 doesn't necessarily translate into 3" at 300. It just doesn't work like that. Some loads seem to settle down after a while and actually will group better downrange on a MOA basis than they did at 100. Some will get worse as the bullet yaw can get worse. But in my experience you really can't tell much about a given load/rifle until you put it on paper at 300 yards.

If you have a lot of vertical dispersion and you are certain you are holding the front post tight to the black then you might want to chronograph your ammo.

Keep in mind also that if you develop a hot load right now it might be too hot when your ammo is lying in the sun in 95 degree temps all day shooting a match. So don't try to drive the car too fast when its cold out like it is. You might blow a tire on a really hot day!

A chronograph can be a big help. Velocity standard deviation meas=ns a good deal at 300 and beyond--not so much at 100. So if you can chronograph a low SD round you'll find they tend to group better in general than loads with a higher SD. And a match rifle needs to be able to do it consistently for 10 shots with a hot barrel as the course of fire requires it.

100 yards isn't a bad starting point to sort out the real dogs but your real group work on a High Power match rifle needs to be done at 300 yards. I have not seen many rifles that would group well at 300 but not group well at 600. But I've seen more than a few loads that shot the lights out at 100 but were dog crap on paper at 300.

WinterWizard
12-10-2012, 22:12
I_D, that's mean. That's just mean man. The brand whores are going to soil their undies.

IMO, that's good accuracy. Of course with a Noveske or Colt, you can shoot east, the bullet will circumnavigate the globe and come out of the west and hit the target in the same hole, but that's not bad for a 27th tier rifle.

I wonder if a stronger scope would tighten them up? I have a Leupold scope that size, and the size of the crosshairs are bigger than the target. Not extremely precise at those ranges.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

ithaca_deerslayer
12-10-2012, 22:58
Yeah kinda. The problem with the 100 yard thing is it really doesn't tell you much about your load/gun. You'll see entirely different behavior with many loads when you get to 300 yards than you saw at 100. This is because bullet dispersion is only rarely linear in my experience. Meaning 1" at 100 doesn't necessarily translate into 3" at 300. It just doesn't work like that. Some loads seem to settle down after a while and actually will group better downrange on a MOA basis than they did at 100. Some will get worse as the bullet yaw can get worse. But in my experience you really can't tell much about a given load/rifle until you put it on paper at 300 yards.

If you have a lot of vertical dispersion and you are certain you are holding the front post tight to the black then you might want to chronograph your ammo.

Keep in mind also that if you develop a hot load right now it might be too hot when your ammo is lying in the sun in 95 degree temps all day shooting a match. So don't try to drive the car too fast when its cold out like it is. You might blow a tire on a really hot day!

A chronograph can be a big help. Velocity standard deviation meas=ns a good deal at 300 and beyond--not so much at 100. So if you can chronograph a low SD round you'll find they tend to group better in general than loads with a higher SD. And a match rifle needs to be able to do it consistently for 10 shots with a hot barrel as the course of fire requires it.

100 yards isn't a bad starting point to sort out the real dogs but your real group work on a High Power match rifle needs to be done at 300 yards. I have not seen many rifles that would group well at 300 but not group well at 600. But I've seen more than a few loads that shot the lights out at 100 but were dog crap on paper at 300.

Thanks. All good info.

My local range goes to 300 yards.

I don't reload. At the monent I'm picking between the Black Hills remanufactured blue box stuff, in various match HP bullet loads. Based on most recent outing, seems the 52 grain is a good pick. I've heard distance shooters prefer the heavier bullets to buck the wind. Do you think 52 grain would be a big disadvantage for a newbie?

Couple pluses of the 52 gr are it is the cheapest of the match ammo. Also the trajectory is close to the cheaper 55gr FMJ stuff for plinking.

Biggest plus is my gun seems to like it. I'll work on stepping out to 300 yards and see what shakes out in group size.

What's the deal on the targets you are suggesting? Is it just for when I switch to irons?

Don't be mislead by me, competitions are a possible use of this gun. Depends on what the local clubs are doing. But I also like shooting on my own and getting to know the rifle.

Big Bird
12-11-2012, 04:26
52 grain match ammo really stinks up the place at 600 yards. The bullets get blown around pretty badly. My recommendation is shoot 69 grain and up.

You'll pull your hair out at 600 yards with 52 grain ammo.

But if you aren't going to shoot matches then ehh..shoot the cheap stuff.

You are going to need a bigger bull for two reasons. You'll need it at 300 yards even if you crank that scope up. And yes--for use with irons. Too small a bull is hard to use with irons. You can buy NRA Highpower Match target centers for 200 and 300 yards and also buy reduced targets for 100 yards that simulate the same bulleseye that you would normallly see at 600 yards.

Foxtrotx1
12-11-2012, 13:50
No. Send the barrel back. If its overgassed the port is probably too large.

Does your bolt lock back on the last round in the magazine or when you single load a magizine?

What did it do when you shot it with a standard carbine buffer?

I would never have guessed the gas port was too large. (sarcasm) This is why we buy rifles from reputable companies.

Foxtrotx1
12-11-2012, 13:52
Thanks. All good info.

My local range goes to 300 yards.

I don't reload. At the monent I'm picking between the Black Hills remanufactured blue box stuff, in various match HP bullet loads. Based on most recent outing, seems the 52 grain is a good pick. I've heard distance shooters prefer the heavier bullets to buck the wind. Do you think 52 grain would be a big disadvantage for a newbie?

Couple pluses of the 52 gr are it is the cheapest of the match ammo. Also the trajectory is close to the cheaper 55gr FMJ stuff for plinking.

Biggest plus is my gun seems to like it. I'll work on stepping out to 300 yards and see what shakes out in group size.

What's the deal on the targets you are suggesting? Is it just for when I switch to irons?

Don't be mislead by me, competitions are a possible use of this gun. Depends on what the local clubs are doing. But I also like shooting on my own and getting to know the rifle.

I would avoid anything from black hills. There is better ammo for the money out there. Federal Gold Match is about the best.

smokin762
12-11-2012, 15:01
52 grain match ammo really stinks up the place at 600 yards. The bullets get blown around pretty badly. My recommendation is shoot 69 grain and up.

You'll pull your hair out at 600 yards with 52 grain ammo.

But if you aren't going to shoot matches then ehh..shoot the cheap stuff.

You are going to need a bigger bull for two reasons. You'll need it at 300 yards even if you crank that scope up. And yes--for use with irons. Too small a bull is hard to use with irons. You can buy NRA Highpower Match target centers for 200 and 300 yards and also buy reduced targets for 100 yards that simulate the same bulleseye that you would normallly see at 600 yards.


The 200, 300 and 600 yard reduced targets for use on 100 yard ranges are nice. A dealer at the gun Show, who only sells targets, has them. I pick up a couple of packs every time I go to the show.

ithaca_deerslayer
12-11-2012, 17:08
I would avoid anything from black hills. There is better ammo for the money out there. Federal Gold Match is about the best.

I use FGM for my .308. So far the prices I've seen have the Black Hills at half the price (comparing 223 to 223).

But I may try a box sometime for the fun of it :)

ithaca_deerslayer
12-11-2012, 17:09
The 200, 300 and 600 yard reduced targets for use on 100 yard ranges are nice. A dealer at the gun Show, who only sells targets, has them. I pick up a couple of packs every time I go to the show.

I'll look for those. Thanks :)

Foxtrotx1
12-11-2012, 19:50
I use FGM for my .308. So far the prices I've seen have the Black Hills at half the price (comparing 223 to 223).

But I may try a box sometime for the fun of it :)

Black hills certainly achieves better accuracy than run of the mill FMJ ammo (especially all the XM reject ammo people fawn over), but they are pretty inconsistant when compared to FGMM or Fiocchi Exacta. BH's saving grace is the use of good bullets that help make up for the slop.

Big Bird
12-11-2012, 20:23
Black hills certainly achieves better accuracy than run of the mill FMJ ammo (especially all the XM reject ammo people fawn over), but they are pretty inconsistant when compared to FGMM or Fiocchi Exacta. BH's saving grace is the use of good bullets that help make up for the slop.


I've had good results with Black Hills blue box stuff in my AR's.

No doubt Federal Gold Medal is the shizz. But its also a buck a shot... WHich gets a little pricey when you are shooting an 88 shot Highpower match! Between entry fees, range fees and ammo you are looking at $100-120 to shoot a rifle match! Twice a month...sometimes more when there's a leg match back to back with a long range match and a Service Rifle match...you can easily shoot 200 rounds in a weekend. Federal GMM kinda prices itself out of that market.

Foxtrotx1
12-11-2012, 22:08
I've had good results with Black Hills blue box stuff in my AR's.

No doubt Federal Gold Medal is the shizz. But its also a buck a shot... WHich gets a little pricey when you are shooting an 88 shot Highpower match! Between entry fees, range fees and ammo you are looking at $100-120 to shoot a rifle match! Twice a month...sometimes more when there's a leg match back to back with a long range match and a Service Rifle match...you can easily shoot 200 rounds in a weekend. Federal GMM kinda prices itself out of that market.

From what I have seen so far, the Hornady steel match is no slouch in accuracy. And a fraction of the price. Ill try and find it again, but someone posted pics where they were going sub MOA with it.

smokin762
12-12-2012, 17:41
I'll look for those. Thanks :)

You’ll need to keep in mind, those reduced targets are really best for what the target would look like at the distance you would be shooting and getting familiar with that front sight. Wind variables, distance and trajectory will all be left out at 100 yards with a reduced size target.

But they do help.

:wavey:

Big Bird
12-12-2012, 19:50
From what I have seen so far, the Hornady steel match is no slouch in accuracy. And a fraction of the price. Ill try and find it again, but someone posted pics where they were going sub MOA with it.

Mathew Courtney said the Hornady Steel match ammo was about 3-4 MOA in his Colt/S&W post here a while back IIRC.

I haven't tried the stuff.

I've shot maybe a thousand Hornady match bullets in my career and they seemed OK. But mostly I've shot Sierra mainly because my Highpower club used to get a pallet of bullets drop shipped direct from Sierra about 4 times a year and I could save a tremendous amount of dough if I ordered 1,000 bullets at a pop. So I did. But Hornady match bullets are generally pretty good. And I've hunted with the old Hornady Interlokts and found they performed fine on game and were very accurate as well.

Foxtrotx1
12-13-2012, 03:25
Mathew Courtney said the Hornady Steel match ammo was about 3-4 MOA in his Colt/S&W post here a while back IIRC.

I haven't tried the stuff.

I've shot maybe a thousand Hornady match bullets in my career and they seemed OK. But mostly I've shot Sierra mainly because my Highpower club used to get a pallet of bullets drop shipped direct from Sierra about 4 times a year and I could save a tremendous amount of dough if I ordered 1,000 bullets at a pop. So I did. But Hornady match bullets are generally pretty good. And I've hunted with the old Hornady Interlokts and found they performed fine on game and were very accurate as well.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107849

For 200 yards thats not bad at .60 cents a round or less.

ithaca_deerslayer
12-23-2012, 16:21
Did some 200 and 300 yard shooting today. I'm not holding .5 MOA, but I am squeeking under 1 MOA with a 2.625" group at 300 yards. That makes me happy :)

I also like my Leupold AR scope. Would help to have more power than 9x, but the 223 range distance spin dial works nice on it with my 52 grain zeroed at 100 yards. 2 clicks up to where it says 200 yards is almost all in the bulls eye, and 6 clicks up to where it says 300 yards seems spot on :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8219/8301939350_98a9855078_b.jpg

smokin762
12-23-2012, 19:43
I have a 3-9 power Leupold Mark AR scope for my 20” AR. I like it, but the only thing that annoys me is, instead of them having a return to zero knob on it for the windage adjustment, it has that stupid split ring. :faint:

I am thinking about putting a Stoney Point Target knob on it.

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=SQ046002

Matthew Courtney
12-24-2012, 17:15
Ithica deerslayer,

Great to see the RR is working out for you! Friends have had luck with various flavors of black hills match. Keep on shooting. Big Birds Counsel is spot on.

Questions for the peanut gallery:
1. Can one be both a brand whore and a fan boy, or are they mutually exclusive? sometimes I feel like whorin', but fan boyin' is all good, too.
2. Why are ya'll wantin' to glamourize long barreled iron sighted rifles? I just put mine up for sale because the diabetes has screwed my vision past the point where I ever expect to clearly see a front sight ever again. Now ya'll makin' me all nostalgic and stuff.

ithaca_deerslayer
12-24-2012, 17:20
2. Why are ya'll wantin' to glamourize long barreled iron sighted rifles? I just put mine up for sale because the diabetes has screwed my vision past the point where I ever expect to clearly see a front sight ever again. Now ya'll makin' me all nostalgic and stuff.

It is a lost art :)

I'm trying to go retro and recapture it. Next up is a Hawken.

Matthew Courtney
12-24-2012, 17:37
It is a lost art :)

I'm trying to go retro and recapture it. Next up is a Hawken.

Dude, one of my buddies has a .54 cal flint lock with double set triggers and a filament front sight that I can actually see. The old and new come together beautifully in that rig. We had a blast over Thanksgiving doing a muzzle loading rifle instructor course. Nothing else is quite like shooting a flintlock. It gives follow through all new meaning.

Rooster Rugburn
12-24-2012, 17:51
1. Can one be both a brand whore and a fan boy, or are they mutually exclusive? sometimes I feel like whorin', but fan boyin' is all good, too.

Wow. That's pretty lame. Maybe your sugar is low.,

Brand whores and fan boys are pretty much one and the same.

Where is that woosh (waving hand over head) smilie?

smokin762
12-25-2012, 09:32
Ithica deerslayer,

Great to see the RR is working out for you! Friends have had luck with various flavors of black hills match. Keep on shooting. Big Birds Counsel is spot on.

Questions for the peanut gallery:
1. Can one be both a brand whore and a fan boy, or are they mutually exclusive? sometimes I feel like whorin', but fan boyin' is all good, too.
2. Why are ya'll wantin' to glamourize long barreled iron sighted rifles? I just put mine up for sale because the diabetes has screwed my vision past the point where I ever expect to clearly see a front sight ever again. Now ya'll makin' me all nostalgic and stuff.

Sounds like you need to have your eye doctor custom make a pair of glasses for shooting. Let them know the distance that needs to be clear for you. From eye to front sight. They can do it. A friend of mine did just that.