DOGS, The AR's that I should not even consider [Archive] - Glock Talk

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akapennypincher
11-07-2012, 17:57
SAR Gun Show is in 28 Days, there should be lots of AR's For Sale. What are the Deals?

What are the Dogs.

What is the AR's that should be avoided at all cost, as their Quality Control is IFFY?

Brian Brazier
11-07-2012, 18:31
I would avoid Olympic Arms, I tried one, it had multiple malfunctions, nothing was properly staked, YMMV. Doublestar gets allot of negitive feedback here and on M4 Carbine, mostly from people who have never even held one, let alone shot one. Both of my Doubkestar rifles have functioned flawless, are properly staked, M4's have proper cuts, I wouldnt hesitate to buy another.

Cole125
11-07-2012, 18:40
:popcorn:

Guys here will have different opinions, based on their experiences, and/or repeating what they have heard or read.

The guy above said Olympic Arms is no good, well I had one that ran great and never gave me a problem. This holds true with any brand, one guy will have one that works, the next guy has one thats junk.

It's safe to say many less expensive AR brands have spotty quality control, your chances of getting a lemon are higher than a higher end brand.


edit: Do a search here, there is hundreds of "what AR should I get threads".

mjkeat
11-07-2012, 18:54
People use there ARs in differing capacities thus you'll here varying accounts of hands on experience w/i the same brand. There are companies that receive good reviews on a more consistant basis.

When I was researching my first AR purchase I did a lot of looking around M4C and took note of the carbines used most in high level classes by high level shooters. You can also read AARs. They'll sometimes include discussion on equipment used during the class.

Mayhem like Me
11-07-2012, 20:14
Be an educated consumer, know what to look for and what you want,,, a new colt 6920 is a screaming deal at around 1000 out the door..
You will see price gouging this weekend since the election I am sure of it.

Daniel Defense makes a very solid Ar15

..

Both have top notch quality control.

You may get a good one from another maker , but if you don't oh well you may or may not get good service.

Higher end are NOVESKE and KAC.. those are pricey and are cool but offer no more reliability.

The Colt would be my pick because you can sell them for darn near what you paid they are the best value.

Brian Brazier
11-07-2012, 20:39
Allot depends on what your going to use the rifle for, I use my Doublestars for range, HD, it performs fine, and at under $700 leaves allot of money for ammo. Everyones going to have different opinions of what is a quality rifle, can you get a quality rifle without getting a Colt or DD, I think so. The market is flooded right now with small and large manufactures, whatnis your intended use for the rifle? Whats your budget?

Ruggles
11-07-2012, 21:11
Build one, they damn near snap together like legos :)

You can pick and choose what you want, adding over time if budget is an issue. Lots of great deals on the internet for every part you need. The lower is the only thing you will need to get thru a FFL. Pick up a stripped one at the show for $90 to $130 and then start picking up parts for it.

Videos on Youtube will clearly show you everything you need to know. It is easy to do. All 5 of mine are put together from different parts and makers. Most folks agree the lower is not an issue as they are almost all exactly the same regardless of brand name. The upper and bole carrier group are where the debate lies most of the time.

If you want a pre-assembled rifle then the ones mentioned above are good to go. Bushmaster, Stag Arms, Smith & Wesson are also good choices.

Just be prepared for lots of advice, brand name & AR15 can be a hotly debated subject to say the least.

Warp
11-07-2012, 22:01
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend

faawrenchbndr
11-08-2012, 02:18
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend

:agree:

TangoFoxtrot
11-08-2012, 04:14
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend

+2 :agree:

Bren
11-08-2012, 04:33
SAR Gun Show is in 28 Days, there should be lots of AR's For Sale. What are the Deals?

What are the Dogs.

What is the AR's that should be avoided at all cost, as their Quality Control is IFFY?

An AR is an AR - learn about them and you can make any one work as well as the next. They are like 1911's that way. High dollar brand names are for people who don't know enough to build their own.

Looking above, for example: Double Star makes some of the best parts I've ever had on an AR or a 1911 and I've built both with their parts - excellent quality, but the newbs don't know the name and don't know enough to see the differences, beyond brand names.

Big Bird
11-08-2012, 04:49
FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.

Deployment Solu
11-08-2012, 05:58
Gentleman.. I will be at the show. There will be no price gouging at our tables. We offer 20% of everyday retail at gunshows!!! I'll be in the NW corner( I believe it is the NW corner(enter the bldg from the side facing the other bldgs and we are in the left back corner)of the SAR Show bdlg. Look for the Choate Machine & Tool sign.

Look us up at www.riflestock.com. We are GlockTalk sponsors.

If you know who we are and want something in particular, lmk and I can make sure to have one for you!!!

Look forward to seeing you there.

Bryon

akapennypincher
11-08-2012, 06:46
tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like m4carbine.net

i would not get:
Dpsm
olympic
bushmaster
double star
anything i haven't heard of

i would get:
Colt
daniel defense
bravo company manufacturing
noveske
lmt
larue
-
spikes
palmetto state armory
smith and wesson

all depending on what i wanted and what i wanted to spend

bingo.

Chuck TX
11-08-2012, 08:45
FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.

It's because they're fine for plinking now and then, which is what most consumers do. How many lower tier owners have even possessed thousands of rounds, let alone shot it, or even plan to short of SHTF?

Not a lot.

It depends on intended use. I have friends with certain rifles and they think they're grand. I have owned said brand rifles and put enough thru them for the lack of quality to shine through. Mostly unusual & accelerated wear and busted LPK parts. They shoot a few rounds per year and will never know the difference.

fnfalman
11-08-2012, 09:43
Armalite!!!

I'm thinking about getting one of their semiauto versions of the M16A2.

JBnTX
11-08-2012, 10:41
Keep It Simple. Just buy a Colt.

P99er
11-08-2012, 10:44
Looking above, for example: Double Star makes some of the best parts I've ever had on an AR or a 1911 and I've built both with their parts - excellent quality, but the newbs don't know the name and don't know enough to see the differences, beyond brand names.

Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.

fnfalman
11-08-2012, 10:52
Whatever happened to Cav Arms?

Warp
11-08-2012, 11:12
FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.

I have limited DPMS experience. Both negative. (I don't usually pay attention to what other people are shooting, but, well, you'll see why I knew what they had below)

First: Guy next to me at the range was shooting an AR15, as was I. Not long after he started he came over and asked me if I knew about them, or whatever. His DPMS had jammed so bad on a round of Remington/UMC FMJ that he just could not get the bolt open. I tried to help but it was damn stuck and I didn't want to beat on some other guy's gun. Range staff came over and pounded the crap out of the buttstock-onto the bench-and it eventually came loose.

Second: At an Appleseed a fellow instructor, whom I had shot with before, was shooting an AR15 as I was doing the same. We were both shooting Federal XM855. He 'warned me' about failures to fire with that ammo. Said he got them from time to time, and he had just had 2 FTF out of 5. He put the two in again and one fired, one did not. I took the one that had twice failed in his rifle...it worked perfectly in mine, same as every other round I have ever put through it *knock on wood*

Spartacus100
11-08-2012, 11:54
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend


Where would you put a Windham? I would put it equal to PSA or S&W...

Foxtrotx1
11-08-2012, 11:57
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend

:agree:

+3

Warp
11-08-2012, 12:07
Where would you put a Windham? I would put it equal to PSA or S&W...

If I were to put Windham in that post they would go at the bottom, under S&W, or between PSA and S&W.

I tried to limit my post to listing/ranking brands that probably wouldn't get much disagreement. That's why I didn't list Del-Ton under brands I would not own or Windham under brands I would own, for example. And it's why I didn't list Sig, and some others.

Spartacus100
11-08-2012, 12:21
Cool. Good reply to my question. :)

Gunnut 45/454
11-08-2012, 12:32
Well gee I guess I don't fit the mold. My first AR civilian wise was a Colt Match HBAR 20" A2. Good rifle, heavy, accurate . Number 2 was a 16" Carbine A2 DPMS HBAR upper on a AT lower. Lighter then , Colt accurate, 100 % fiunction ,Zero problems. Shot it more then the Colt, wife liked it, so the Colt went down the road. Number 3 PSA StrikeFire Carbine M4ery complete rifle . Totally happy with it, Light, accurate totally 100% reliable. Wife trying to make it hers-not happening. Number 4 CMMG 300 Blk Upper on Spikes Lower I built. I love .30 Caliber, accurate , more punch for hunting, more punch for HD/SD, did I say I love .30 caliber. Bottom line your money buy what you want, 99 % chance you'll be happy and it will do exactly what you want it to do and it will not matter who's name is on it!:supergrin: Just understand BRD is expensive ! Your wallet will be alot lighter.

Warp
11-08-2012, 12:33
Cool. Good reply to my question. :)

These AR threads are like minefields. I'm working on my counter-IED strategies. :)

arushus
11-08-2012, 13:33
I recommend buying a brand that is known to build their rifles to mil-spec. That way you know they at least built it to a certain quality. I went with Spike's Tactical 16" CHF enhanced upper w/NiBX BCG. I havent regretted it. Other makers that are known to build mil-spec are: Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, and a few others I cant think of right now.

CigarandScotch
11-08-2012, 13:39
People love to hate on DPMS, but mine runs great. Maybe I got lucky. Mind you, I did buy it before I knew anything about AR rifles, and I think the above advice has been good. Since I have heard mixed reviews of DPMS, Bushmaster, Armalite, Olympic, etc... given the choice to do over, I would probably pick a brand with a more "spotless" reputation.

LA_357SIG
11-08-2012, 13:52
Not disagreeing with you...
Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.

I put more faith in a man that can take an "unapproved" brand AR15 and make it run over any "so called expert's" opinion any day. My reason is, ACTUAL experts like Pat Rogers document failures that occur in his training classes. He can recommend brands that have a less chance of failure based on first hand experience and a very large sample size. More "so called experts" that frequent gun forums usually have the opposite.

In all seriousness, who is more credible? One man who can PMCS a DPMS and keep it running, or some internet commando that posts BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC on every thread but if his BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC fails, tap/rack/bang is the pinnacle of his knowledge base?

But then again, I put the responsibility of proper operation of my gear on myself, not the manufacturer.

Brian Brazier
11-08-2012, 13:55
for all the DS Haters here is Larry Vickers testing one
Tactical Arms - The M4 (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/bbrazierkendo/haters_gonna_hate.jpg

mjkeat
11-08-2012, 21:16
An AR is an AR - learn about them and you can make any one work as well as the next. They are like 1911's that way. High dollar brand names are for people who don't know enough to build their own.

Looking above, for example: Double Star makes some of the best parts I've ever had on an AR or a 1911 and I've built both with their parts - excellent quality, but the newbs don't know the name and don't know enough to see the differences, beyond brand names.

Not true. ARs are not created equaly. Build materials are the most noticable difference. Then you have QC and quality of assembly.

Work is a broad term. Work for one may not work for another.

Not knowing you can have quality w/o the "High Dollar" price tag shows, in your words, "newb" status.

FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.

Uninformed consumers drive the market. Compare the amount of people w/ ARs sitting in the safe who get out three times a year to the number of guys who are out once or twice a week. The number of ARs sold has no relation to quality. Uninformed consumers who rarely shoot then jump on forums and talk about how their DPMS is 100%.

Not disagreeing with you...


I put more faith in a man that can take an "unapproved" brand AR15 and make it run over any "so called expert's" opinion any day. My reason is, ACTUAL experts like Pat Rogers document failures that occur in his training classes. He can recommend brands that have a less chance of failure based on first hand experience and a very large sample size. More "so called experts" that frequent gun forums usually have the opposite.

In all seriousness, who is more credible? One man who can PMCS a DPMS and keep it running, or some internet commando that posts BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC on every thread but if his BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC fails, tap/rack/bang is the pinnacle of his knowledge base?

But then again, I put the responsibility of proper operation of my gear on myself, not the manufacturer.

What maker does Pat Rogers recommend and back?

How about an AR that just simply runs w/o the need for extra care. I'd rather spend my time shooting than maintaining.

Are you recommending people purchase non functional ARs so tap, rack, bang isn't the extent of their knowledge?

Warp
11-08-2012, 21:21
Work is a broad term. Work for one may not work for another.


It sure is. That guy I referenced earlier was very happy with his DPMS, and was sure it was the ammo (Federal Lake City XM855) that was faulty, not his rifle. Nevermind the fact that my rifle, and lots and lots of other quality rifles, shoot that ammo without the problems he has...or that I took the "bad" ammo from him and it worked in my rifle

But there isn't a sexy mil-spec for a hammer spring, so people think it is impossible one manufacturer's hammer springs are better made, better installed, or better suited for the job than another manufacturer's. But something has to account for his rifle's failures.

Not that he considers them to be his rifle's failures. They sure seem to be, for me, but it's easier for him to shift the blame elsewhere.

Cole125
11-08-2012, 21:42
It's because they're fine for plinking now and then, which is what most consumers do. How many lower tier owners have even possessed thousands of rounds, let alone shot it, or even plan to short of SHTF?

Not a lot.

It depends on intended use. I have friends with certain rifles and they think they're grand. I have owned said brand rifles and put enough thru them for the lack of quality to shine through. Mostly unusual & accelerated wear and busted LPK parts. They shoot a few rounds per year and will never know the difference.

Exactly. Low end ARs work fine for folks who just like the idea of having a AR in their safe, but rarely shoot it, if ever. There is ALOT of these types of gun owners.

MarkCO
11-09-2012, 07:36
Whatever happened to Cav Arms?

The original owners lost their FFL due to violations of the law. Mostly unrelated to the actual production of their products. The machinery and patents were bought by a new company, price went up ($180 stripped, $270 complete), and are now available again. NO feedback on new company quality, but the lowers are off the same machinery with the same processes. http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii.html

That said, the polymer lowers made by other companies, I would toss into the No-Go pile. ARs based on those lowers are the only ones I would consider "Dogs." There are certainly some ARs that are less desireable for various functions/needs as one goes up and down the price-line.

The few ARs out there that take aberant mags and or have proprietary components, I would also not consider for a "first" or "must-work" AR. Thankfully, the Piston ARs shine is wearing off and DI systems are back in vogue. While I have seen a few people recomend Spike's, I have seen some of their products that underscore a basic lack of understanding of the AR platform, so they would not be on my list. I'd be wary of newer Bushmaster's and I would not consider an Olympic.

From what I have seen, I would have no issues with DPMS, Double-Star, DD, BCM, LMT, Stag or S&W. Personally, I think LaRue and Colt are WAY over-hyped and, while quality, there are equal or better ARs for less coin. If you want to spend a bit more, Noveske is near the top of the list and an excellent product.

I've owned Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, Firebird, JP, Noveske and others. Most of those are gone. IMO, you can get a better quality rifle with careful planning and cherry-picking parts that will serve your needs better, educate you on the operation, and cost less money, by building it yourself.

In 3Gun, we are seeing of lot of new shooters who have some sort of M4gery come out to play. As a result, we are seeing a LOT more failures: case head separations, failure to eject, extract, chamber, etc. and most of these are related to operator error in terms of maintenance. Guys takle a new rifle and go shoot 200 rounds and now you have failures. The crap some manufacturers coat their parts with gets almost like tar. But also, when you see "sponsored" shooters running factory guns that have multiple malfunctions over several matches, you start to say...that stuff don't work.

In any basic "must-work" AR, I'd avoid adjustable gas, Chromed BCGs, cheap sights, trigger jobs on mil-spec parts. Other than that, the BCG is probably the most important assembly to NOT skimp on.

Last point for the DPMS bashers...realize that a LOT of the small parts in other brands ARE DPMS parts. Also, the receivers and barrels come from a small number of factories and are branded for several "manufacturers."

Cole125
11-09-2012, 09:21
Whats wrong with Chromed BCGs? I've got a Daniel Defense chrome BCG in my newest build and can't possibly see anything wrong with it.

fnfalman
11-09-2012, 09:28
Thankfully, the Piston ARs shine is wearing off and DI systems are back in vogue.

If I were to want a piston driven gun, then I wouldn't be picking up an AR of some sort in the place. I've always thought that piston AR deal was silly. You take a gun that wasn't designed for a type of mechanism, then try to half-assed engineer a mechanism in to replace the original design.

Big Bird
11-09-2012, 10:10
I have limited DPMS experience. Both negative. (I don't usually pay attention to what other people are shooting, but, well, you'll see why I knew what they had below)

First: Guy next to me at the range was shooting an AR15, as was I. Not long after he started he came over and asked me if I knew about them, or whatever. His DPMS had jammed so bad on a round of Remington/UMC FMJ that he just could not get the bolt open. I tried to help but it was damn stuck and I didn't want to beat on some other guy's gun. Range staff came over and pounded the crap out of the buttstock-onto the bench-and it eventually came loose.

Second: At an Appleseed a fellow instructor, whom I had shot with before, was shooting an AR15 as I was doing the same. We were both shooting Federal XM855. He 'warned me' about failures to fire with that ammo. Said he got them from time to time, and he had just had 2 FTF out of 5. He put the two in again and one fired, one did not. I took the one that had twice failed in his rifle...it worked perfectly in mine, same as every other round I have ever put through it *knock on wood*

Warp,

I'm not going to deny that ARs have malfunctions. What I am going to tell you is that I have seen EVERY malfunction you can find in ANY AR thread on the internet on an M16 Rifle Range in the US Army with Colt and FN rifles.

That malfunction you described above is probably a case rim over the top of the bolt jam and while rare--I've seen it happen in the military. Its a beotch to clear for sure. But it happens even with fully functional MILSPEC issued rifles...

Anecdotal observations like yours are interesting. But they prove nothing. Its like saying you were driving home today and saw a Honda Accord broken down on the side of the road and therefore concluding the Honda Accord is an unreliable piece of junk!

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2012, 11:03
FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.

The DMPS built rifles are GTG, if not made of the most durable materials available. The DPMS kit rifles built by guys who read about how cheap and easy they are to build tend to be an absolute crap shoot. I guess a lot of guys didn't want to buy $300 in tools to save $150 dollars on a rifle when they already had a set of vise grips, a hammer, and a friend who would help out for a six pack.

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2012, 11:09
It's because they're fine for plinking now and then, which is what most consumers do. How many lower tier owners have even possessed thousands of rounds, let alone shot it, or even plan to short of SHTF?

Not a lot.

It depends on intended use. I have friends with certain rifles and they think they're grand. I have owned said brand rifles and put enough thru them for the lack of quality to shine through. Mostly unusual & accelerated wear and busted LPK parts. They shoot a few rounds per year and will never know the difference.

The most prevalent rifles in the hands of the DOE guards defending places like the Riverbend Nuclear Power Plant and The Strategic Petroleum Reserve are DPMS. Bushmaster has a lot of their rifles being used as well.

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2012, 11:16
Whats wrong with Chromed BCGs? I've got a Daniel Defense chrome BCG in my newest build and can't possibly see anything wrong with it.

There is nothing wrong with chrome a BCG, as long as you do not fall for the "self lubricating" nonsense. The friction coefficient is lower, but there are still advantages to running them wet.

LA_357SIG
11-09-2012, 11:45
There is nothing wrong with chrome a BCG, as long as you do not fall for the "self lubricating" nonsense. The friction coefficient is lower, but there are still advantages to running them wet.

Shooting suppressed is a big one. Nothing is more satisfying after a day of shooting suppressed than to wipe down a chrome bolt with a paper towel, relube and put it back together. No soaking, scrubbing or scraping needed.

btaylor
11-09-2012, 11:50
I bought a CMMG that was at a price i could not resist. All was fine until I tried to change front standard from sight to a gas block with rails. They have some sort of proprietary pin setup that kept the gas block from mounting up solid and it developed a leak causing FTE jams. The local shop had to order new sight pins from CMMG to get it put back in stock form. No more problems in stock form. I don't think there are any other parts that don't interchange. So; good rifle at an affordable price just don't mess with the stock gas setup on the front end.

LA_357SIG
11-09-2012, 12:09
What maker does Pat Rogers recommend and back?

How about an AR that just simply runs w/o the need for extra care. I'd rather spend my time shooting than maintaining.

Are you recommending people purchase non functional ARs so tap, rack, bang isn't the extent of their knowledge?

I never said he did. One definition of "can" is -be logically or axiologically able to. I swear, if your cognitive skills were as strong as your arrogance...

As far as your other comment and question, reread my post you quoted and adjust your cognition until you get an answer.

Warp
11-09-2012, 12:26
Warp,

I'm not going to deny that ARs have malfunctions. What I am going to tell you is that I have seen EVERY malfunction you can find in ANY AR thread on the internet on an M16 Rifle Range in the US Army with Colt and FN rifles.

That malfunction you described above is probably a case rim over the top of the bolt jam and while rare--I've seen it happen in the military. Its a beotch to clear for sure. But it happens even with fully functional MILSPEC issued rifles...

Anecdotal observations like yours are interesting. But they prove nothing. Its like saying you were driving home today and saw a Honda Accord broken down on the side of the road and therefore concluding the Honda Accord is an unreliable piece of junk!

Negative.

It's like saying I've only seen two Honda Accords in operation on the road and both broke down right in front of me, therefore I am not personally willing to spend my money on a Honda Accord at this point in time, nor am I comfortable telling other people to spend their money on a Honda Accord at this point in time.

CigarandScotch
11-09-2012, 12:56
Just an addendum to my previous post, since I agree that there are lots of folks out there with cheaper ARs that don't shoot them and post too much propaganda about theirs: I shoot mine as much as I can afford to. Sometimes that's 500 rounds a month, sometimes it's not. I would estimate my round count in the neighborhood of 8-9000, conservatively. I know that's not a whole lot, but so far mine is GTG. Your mileage may vary, and I would rather have a Colt or another top tier weapon, but it's the one I got.

fuzzy03cls
11-09-2012, 12:58
Guys here will have different opinions, based on their experiences
exactly.... I have run a few of the lower end AR's through classes & thousands of rounds with hard hits & no cleaning & they were 100%. Same can be said from my BCM, spikes, & CMMG. The only problem I had was ironically with a 6920 where it would jam on the feed ramp after it got hot.
Also you have to understand how these work. You can buy a BCM, colt, DD, spikes etc, BCG & solve 90% of any potential problems a lower end AR may have. You can replace buffers going up & down in weight to correct over/under gas systems, you can replace barrels with CL 1:7 MPI tested ones, you can stake your castle yourself in all of 1 minute.....The point is a lower end AR doesn't have to stay a lower end AR if you buy one.

fuzzy03cls
11-09-2012, 13:05
The most prevalent rifles in the hands of the DOE guards defending places like the Riverbend Nuclear Power Plant and The Strategic Petroleum Reserve are DPMS. Bushmaster has a lot of their rifles being used as well.
Friend of mine is a guard at one of the Tenn nuke plants. They are not issued colts. I asked him & he said he wasn't sure if he could tell me but said not colt & are F/A. They also are issued sig 9mm's for pistols.

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2012, 13:20
Friend of mine is a guard at one of the Tenn nuke plants. They are not issued colts. I asked him & he said he wasn't sure if he could tell me but said not colt & are F/A. They also are issued sig 9mm's for pistols.

Those security contracts do not specify which make, simply functional characteristics. The contracts go to the lowest bidder who meets the specifications of the contract. I find it laughable when some mall ninja gives internet advice to the effect that "those are hobby grade rifles that should not be relied upon for serious purposes". There are not many purposes more serious than securing nuclear power plants and guarding nuclear weapons being transported within the US.

CigarandScotch
11-09-2012, 13:24
Those security contracts do not specify which make, simply functional characteristics. The contracts go to the lowest bidder who meets the specifications of the contract. I find it laughable when some mall ninja gives internet advice to the effect that "those are hobby grade rifles that should not be relied upon for serious purposes". There are not many purposes more serious than securing nuclear power plants and guarding nuclear weapons being transported within the US.

Good post.

John Biltz
11-09-2012, 16:05
Very true. In every armsroom in the Army there are broken M4s or M16s. I'd guess the average is probably around 5 per company. Call that around 4% of them. Although I will say if something can be broke a soldier will manage to break one. I bent a barrel once my own self. Bad landing on a parachute jump. Warp,

I'm not going to deny that ARs have malfunctions. What I am going to tell you is that I have seen EVERY malfunction you can find in ANY AR thread on the internet on an M16 Rifle Range in the US Army with Colt and FN rifles.

That malfunction you described above is probably a case rim over the top of the bolt jam and while rare--I've seen it happen in the military. Its a beotch to clear for sure. But it happens even with fully functional MILSPEC issued rifles...

Anecdotal observations like yours are interesting. But they prove nothing. Its like saying you were driving home today and saw a Honda Accord broken down on the side of the road and therefore concluding the Honda Accord is an unreliable piece of junk!

Chuck TX
11-09-2012, 16:11
The most prevalent rifles in the hands of the DOE guards defending places like the Riverbend Nuclear Power Plant and The Strategic Petroleum Reserve are DPMS. Bushmaster has a lot of their rifles being used as well.

Big whoop. DPS uses Bushmaster, doesn't increase the quality or lack of.

Many of us own and have owned And base our experience off of that. Not what the DOE chose. Who uses what based on the lowest bid is irrelevant.

Chuck TX
11-09-2012, 16:17
Those security contracts do not specify which make, simply functional characteristics. The contracts go to the lowest bidder who meets the specifications of the contract. I find it laughable when some mall ninja gives internet advice to the effect that "those are hobby grade rifles that should not be relied upon for serious purposes". There are not many purposes more serious than securing nuclear power plants and guarding nuclear weapons being transported within the US.

So for folks to be hung up on "Colt, it's mil spec, military and XYZ use them." Is ninja?

But your basis for defending DPMS is some nuke plants are guarded by them? :dunno:

arushus
11-09-2012, 17:05
The original owners lost their FFL due to violations of the law. Mostly unrelated to the actual production of their products. The machinery and patents were bought by a new company, price went up ($180 stripped, $270 complete), and are now available again. NO feedback on new company quality, but the lowers are off the same machinery with the same processes. http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii.html

That said, the polymer lowers made by other companies, I would toss into the No-Go pile. ARs based on those lowers are the only ones I would consider "Dogs." There are certainly some ARs that are less desireable for various functions/needs as one goes up and down the price-line.

The few ARs out there that take aberant mags and or have proprietary components, I would also not consider for a "first" or "must-work" AR. Thankfully, the Piston ARs shine is wearing off and DI systems are back in vogue. While I have seen a few people recomend Spike's, I have seen some of their products that underscore a basic lack of understanding of the AR platform, so they would not be on my list. I'd be wary of newer Bushmaster's and I would not consider an Olympic.

From what I have seen, I would have no issues with DPMS, Double-Star, DD, BCM, LMT, Stag or S&W. Personally, I think LaRue and Colt are WAY over-hyped and, while quality, there are equal or better ARs for less coin. If you want to spend a bit more, Noveske is near the top of the list and an excellent product.

I've owned Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, Firebird, JP, Noveske and others. Most of those are gone. IMO, you can get a better quality rifle with careful planning and cherry-picking parts that will serve your needs better, educate you on the operation, and cost less money, by building it yourself.

In 3Gun, we are seeing of lot of new shooters who have some sort of M4gery come out to play. As a result, we are seeing a LOT more failures: case head separations, failure to eject, extract, chamber, etc. and most of these are related to operator error in terms of maintenance. Guys takle a new rifle and go shoot 200 rounds and now you have failures. The crap some manufacturers coat their parts with gets almost like tar. But also, when you see "sponsored" shooters running factory guns that have multiple malfunctions over several matches, you start to say...that stuff don't work.

In any basic "must-work" AR, I'd avoid adjustable gas, Chromed BCGs, cheap sights, trigger jobs on mil-spec parts. Other than that, the BCG is probably the most important assembly to NOT skimp on.

Last point for the DPMS bashers...realize that a LOT of the small parts in other brands ARE DPMS parts. Also, the receivers and barrels come from a small number of factories and are branded for several "manufacturers."


This is just an honest question, and not an attempt at confrontation, and since neither of us has an emotional investment in this, Im hoping we can have a short discussion with logic, well-articulated arguments, and respect for one another...Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's? I just recently bought my first AR/M4 or whatever you wanna call it, a Spike's Tactical Elite 16" Middy with NiBX BCG and CHF CL barrel. I did my research and settled on this model. Over on M4carbine.net if you dont have a Colt, DD, or BCM you are just a plain ol' jackass, so as knowledgeable as most guys are there, I took anything I read there regarding Spike's with a grain of salt, since they showed particular bias towards BCM.
Overall I was happy with what I learned about Spike's and obviously went with them. The NiBX BCG kinda put me over the top because I have a Glock 27 with a NiBX coated barrel and upper, and Im very fond of how easy it is to clean.
Ive been very happy with my gun so far, but I've only put around 300 trouble-free rounds through it thus far, so it is by no means considered reliable yet in my mind. Also, while researching which M4 I wanted, most information I came across regarding people's thoughts on Spike's build quality was that they paid special attention to detail and the small stuff...
I'd just like to hear you expound on your opinion of Spike's rifles, not to start a debate, but because Im genuinely interested in learning about any potential issues I may or may not have with my gun, and if your experience with them would apply to my gun...Thanks!

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2012, 17:43
So for folks to be hung up on "Colt, it's mil spec, military and XYZ use them." Is ninja?

But your basis for defending DPMS is some nuke plants are guarded by them? :dunno:

Can you cite where I have posted anything degrading Colt rifles, mil specs, or any organization, agency, or individual because they use Colt or mil spec rifles?

You cannot cite it because I have not posted anything of the sort. Quit making stuff up.

fuzzy03cls
11-09-2012, 18:39
Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's?
Can't speak for him, but the AR world has always been flavor of the month.
Years ago, Bushmaster was it, then shortly after that CMMG, then LMT, then BCM, now it's spikes. Each ones gets ragged on after another flavor comes out. Just how it is.

Warp
11-09-2012, 18:40
Can't speak for him, but the AR world has always been flavor of the month.
Years ago, Bushmaster was it, then shortly after that CMMG, then LMT, then BCM, now it's spikes. Each ones gets ragged on after another flavor comes out. Just how it is.

:rofl:

Chuck TX
11-09-2012, 18:57
Can you cite where I have posted anything degrading Colt rifles, mil specs, or any organization, agency, or individual because they use Colt or mil spec rifles?

You cannot cite it because I have not posted anything of the sort. Quit making stuff up.

Try again, it's there.

You degraded people with experience based standards.

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2012, 19:06
Try again, it's there.

You degraded people with experience based standards.

I did no such thing. You are a liar. List the names of the people I supposedly degraded and the number of the post in which I allegedly degraded them.

Sporaticus
11-09-2012, 19:26
Negative.

It's like saying I've only seen two Honda Accords in operation on the road and both broke down right in front of me, therefore I am not personally willing to spend my money on a Honda Accord at this point in time, nor am I comfortable telling other people to spend their money on a Honda Accord at this point in time.

Then you certainly wouldn't want to drive an Accord through N Dallas.

MarkCO
11-09-2012, 20:51
Whats wrong with Chromed BCGs? I've got a Daniel Defense chrome BCG in my newest build and can't possibly see anything wrong with it.

I said "avoid" not "wrong".

Some chromed BCGs end up being a tad tight. You are running a hard (steel) carrier in a softer (aluminum) receiver. There is just no need for it. In some cases, you can end up with increases receiver wear. Granted, several thousand rounds, which most people will never shoot.

Warp
11-09-2012, 20:53
I said "avoid" not "wrong".

Some chromed BCGs end up being a tad tight. You are running a hard (steel) carrier in a softer (aluminum) receiver. There is just no need for it. In some cases, you can end up with increases receiver wear. Granted, several thousand rounds, which most people will never shoot.

You know, with ALL of the stuff I've read about ARs, and AR owners, and AR shooters, and all that...I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.

Surely such a thing exists, and I just haven't seen it yet?

MarkCO
11-09-2012, 21:21
...Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's?...

Well, first, their BCGs. They are on their like 4th try with the NiB bolt. They came out with an "Ultra-Light" that was just a hacked up Mil-Spec BCG. Weight reduction without increased surface contact area is a really bad idea. I was fairly direct about it on another board and it looks like they dropped it. I had one come into the shop with a fractured barrel nut that ended up trashing the receiver.

If you take their "Enhanced" kits and compare them to a DPMS kit, you might find a lot of similarities. Get a DPMS LPK for $50, add an Ergo grip, KNS pins, a Magpul trigger guard and a tool steel hammer and you have a better kit for $50 less.

It just seems that the parts rifles they build with other companies parts are okay, but overpriced. Some of their ideas/parts/reworks of parts just don't make sense, like Tungsten buffers in 16" carbines. You can get a heck of a nice rifle for $1100 to $1200 that will perform better.

MarkCO
11-09-2012, 21:29
You know, with ALL of the stuff I've read about ARs, and AR owners, and AR shooters, and all that...I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.

Surely such a thing exists, and I just haven't seen it yet?

The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.

mjkeat
11-09-2012, 22:01
The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.

Most of what you say doesn't sit well. Chrome lined carriers = bad? DPMS LPKs = good? It goes against everything I've experienced. I know we all experience different things but it's hard to digest such differing experiences. Really hard. When I've seen DPMS LPKs fail causing the host weapon to go full auto, stuck cases, etc. It's to the point when I hear of an AR failing I respond, "DPMS?" I'm usually correct. I'm a percentages guy.

150 is not a telling round count. I agree. a person who only fires 150 rounds a year will probably be ok going w/ a DPMSish AR. That is if the price is much, much less. I'd take the chance for $400. It is however more common for the lower quality ARs to be very close to if not the same price as a quality competitor. I've seen BM's and DPMS ARs no more than $100 less than a 6920. It makes no sense to not get the 6920.

I know things get tense around here but first hand experience is hard to discount when you've witnessed it w/ your own eyes.

MarkCO
11-10-2012, 05:48
mjkeat, please excuse my ignorance here, but I am learning. So "avoid", for some of you guys means "Bad" and "better" means "best". Does "okay" mean "best" also. I feel like I am having a conversation with a teenage girl in a language I have not yet learned.

So what DPMS parts, exactly, have you seen REPEATEDLY fail causing the AR to go full auto. Also, WHY did they fail?

BTW, I won't use any mil-spec hammers by any maker, tool steel for me please.

I've seen numerous upper receivers trashed, as well as gas ring failures due to poorly chromed BCGs. A quality chromed BCG is fine, but the cost is high. When the only benefit is allowing one to spend less time cleaning, that extra scratch is better spent on an Ultrasonic cleaner.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 06:44
If I were to want a piston driven gun, then I wouldn't be picking up an AR of some sort in the place. I've always thought that piston AR deal was silly. You take a gun that wasn't designed for a type of mechanism, then try to half-assed engineer a mechanism in to replace the original design.I have near 5000 rounds through my LWRC M6A2 without a single malfunction. The half assed retrofit you speak of seems to work fine for me, and many others I am sure. Are there problems out there? Of course, but I have not experienced them. Granted, I can only credit my experience and rifle with that statement because I do not know anyone else with a piston driven upper. On a side note, it is nice not to have all the excess carbon build up from a direct impingement setup as well.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 06:59
Most of what you say doesn't sit well. Chrome lined carriers = bad? DPMS LPKs = good? It goes against everything I've experienced. I know we all experience different things but it's hard to digest such differing experiences. Really hard. When I've seen DPMS LPKs fail causing the host weapon to go full auto, stuck cases, etc. It's to the point when I hear of an AR failing I respond, "DPMS?" I'm usually correct. I'm a percentages guy.

150 is not a telling round count. I agree. a person who only fires 150 rounds a year will probably be ok going w/ a DPMSish AR. That is if the price is much, much less. I'd take the chance for $400. It is however more common for the lower quality ARs to be very close to if not the same price as a quality competitor. I've seen BM's and DPMS ARs no more than $100 less than a 6920. It makes no sense to not get the 6920.

I know things get tense around here but first hand experience is hard to discount when you've witnessed it w/ your own eyes.Please expound on this full auto thing. I have a DPMS LPK with a RRA 2 stage trigger in my suppressed SBR multi manufacturer build and am curious to know what parts are likely to fail causing this condition as I have never heard of it.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 07:39
Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

TNRonin
11-10-2012, 07:45
Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.

I keep seeing M4C getting thrown out as the end all authority, and people disparaging DSC guns. Lets face it, if you are not an approved vendor or a gun sold by the approved vendors on M4C everything else sucks (can we say conflict of interest).

I don't know the parts anymore because I just don't care, but DSC/JT supply or used to supply many parts for the "approved by M4C" companies. Which is sort of laughable consider what they charge. FWIW I've seen lemons come out of Wilson's. sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.

You need to inspect the gun you are buying.

Sorry for any typos.




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Sporaticus
11-10-2012, 10:18
I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.?

If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

Panglоss
11-10-2012, 11:18
If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

Lots of people around here use Rock Rivers, including most of the SWAT team. I know of plenty of people who have put thousands of rounds through their rock river AR (even, say, a couple thousand in a weekend), and have never heard of any issues.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 14:59
Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2I understand what the definition of full auto is. No need to be a condescending jerk about it. I was simply asking what was wrong with the rifle being that I have a DPMS lower parts kit in one of my rifles. Seems that the issue you described would not apply in my situation since my trigger group has been replaced. Thanks for the answer.

Matthew Courtney
11-10-2012, 15:29
If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

I know quite a few security contractors that run Bushmaster rifles in trashcanistan and run them long and hard without fear of failure. A DPMS with a chrome line barrel is substantially similar, except chrome was an option instead of standard. Who gives a flip what fan boys believe, as long as we can stop them from misinforming folks seeking good information.

Matthew Courtney
11-10-2012, 15:33
Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

When a plurality of the rifles in folks hands are DPMS, the plurality of failures will likely be DPMS. Combine that with tens of thousands of home builds on DPMS recievers and perceptions may get skewed. For years, we never saw a Colt M4 around here, so we never saw one Colt failure. Unobtanium neverfailium.

I agree 100% that the are better values out there in the lower price ranges, and a patient man with $625 can get a rifle made considerably better than a DPMS in todays market. That may not be true in a week.

MarkCO
11-10-2012, 16:40
I understand what the definition of full auto is. No need to be a condescending jerk about it. I was simply asking what was wrong with the rifle being that I have a DPMS lower parts kit in one of my rifles. Seems that the issue you described would not apply in my situation since my trigger group has been replaced. Thanks for the answer.

You are too kind...he did not answer you, nor me. Broken trigger group can mean a LOT of things which he did not explain. Stuck cases are rarely a rifle problem and almost always improper reloading, which again, he failed to expound upon.

Either it is common keyboard commando or he does not care enough to actually prove the point of what he beleives are failure prone DPMS parts.

Matthew Courtney's post above is spot on.

Armchair Commando
11-10-2012, 16:40
SAR Gun Show is in 28 Days, there should be lots of AR's For Sale. What are the Deals?

What are the Dogs.

What is the AR's that should be avoided at all cost, as their Quality Control is IFFY?

How much can you afford for a rifle only? Your also going to need money for mags,ammo,spare parts,etc.

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mjkeat
11-10-2012, 17:07
Just skimmed the responses. What caught my attention was the guy saying the informed posters posting from first hand experience are the ones "misinforming" people.

There seems to be a huge divide in users. I know everyone is passionate about this subject. I just cannot see spending the same money on something questionable when there are companies of unquestionable boringly consistent quality with awesome CS and fast shipping.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Matthew Courtney
11-10-2012, 18:15
Just skimmed the responses. What caught my attention was the guy saying the informed posters posting from first hand experience are the ones "misinforming" people.

There seems to be a huge divide in users. I know everyone is passionate about this subject. I just cannot see spending the same money on something questionable when there are companies of unquestionable boringly consistent quality with awesome CS and fast shipping.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

The AR market has changed quite a bit in the past 8-10 years. Advice that was spot on in 2004 is will no longer guide all AR buyers to make the best purchasing decision. There are simply too many quality ARs available to make blanket statement.

With respect to posts in this thread being made by informed posters posting, I stopped counting at ten posts that were clearly reguritated rote from another forum. The only post I saw that was clearly first hand information was Warp's post # 20. The issue of hard military primers being unreliable with light target triggers is well known and applies to some JP Enterprise, Geissele, Timney, as well as the DPMS 2 stage trigger.

Many guns are tuned to do some specific thing very well and that can make them less reliable in doing other things. Since the most accurate ammo is handloaded or uses commercial, rather than military primers, users do not normally have issues. Ammo incompatibility affects many rifles. I have a Colt Sporter that will not reliably cycle Wolf 55 gr FMJ and my accuracy loads for my Remington 700 will only cycle my mini 14, not my AR's.

If the serial # on a DPMS ends in K, it is a build on a DPMS lower and is very suspect. DPMS rifles with stainless barrels are quite accurate. Outside of that, better values exist in most markets. If a mid grade DPMS passed a once over and shot well, I would buy it as a rack rifle if I could get it for $500. At $625, there are better rifles for sale all day long.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify my remarks.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 18:21
I'm tired.

Sporaticus
11-10-2012, 18:26
Lots of people around here use Rock Rivers, including most of the SWAT team. I know of plenty of people who have put thousands of rounds through their rock river AR (even, say, a couple thousand in a weekend), and have never heard of any issues.

I know quite a few security contractors that run Bushmaster rifles in trashcanistan and run them long and hard without fear of failure. A DPMS with a chrome line barrel is substantially similar, except chrome was an option instead of standard. Who gives a flip what fan boys believe, as long as we can stop them from misinforming folks seeking good information.


I'm not a brand whore. I just suspect they will call in to doubt anyone who says they have high round counts on budget rifles with no problems.

I have BM, RR, Stag, that I've never had any problems with. I also have "top tier" rifle that when I broke it over the first time, the buffer retainer popped out and was jammed between the hammer and the receiver wall. When they assembled it, the buffer tube needed to be turned one more round. It sucks because the castle nut was properly staked.

Sporaticus
11-10-2012, 18:27
I'm tired.

Nice to meet you tired. I'm Daniel.

Warp
11-10-2012, 18:41
The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.

That's disappointing.


If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

I did not say nor imply anything about the round count relating to the quality of the brand, nor did I even have that in mind. Inferiority complex or something?

...even if somebody says they have X number or rounds through their rifle without any problem...do you really expect people to believe them?

Reference my DPMS example where I was told to watch out for that ammo (Federal Lake City XM855) failing to fire. :rofl:

Armchair Commando
11-10-2012, 18:46
Nice to meet you tired. I'm Daniel.

Lmao

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Matthew Courtney
11-10-2012, 18:52
That's disappointing.




I did not say nor imply anything about the round count relating to the quality of the brand, nor did I even have that in mind. Inferiority complex or something?

...even if somebody says they have X number or rounds through their rifle without any problem...do you really expect people to believe them?

Reference my DPMS example where I was told to watch out for that ammo (Federal Lake City XM855) failing to fire. :rofl:

Sportacus, Warp Is neither a fan boy nor a guy who scours the world looking for things that support a unfounded opinion. He is a smart, inquisitive, thoughtful, and honest fellow who you should take at face value. There are varying opinions out there, and reasonable men will differ. Know that Warp is a guy who will help you know the issues better, and know yourself better as well.

Warp, would you believe that a significant number of my civilian carbine course students shoot at least part of it with a .22 to save on ammo cost? Leaves them more $ to spend on training!

Have you noticed how frequently I mention less expensive gear alternatives? Leaves shooters more money to spend on training. One cannot replace practice with products!

Warp
11-10-2012, 18:54
For reference I got my rifle in June. I have 1,300 rounds through it so far with another 400-500 scheduled for tomorrow, and I feel like I need to shoot a good bit more, but cannot afford it.

Also please note that often, including in this thread, I refer to it as my rifle, or my gun, or whatever (such as when I told the DPMS story) without even mentioning the brand. No need to name drop brand selection or preference in every post, you know?

Sporaticus
11-10-2012, 19:02
Sportacus, Warp Is neither a fan boy nor a guy who scours the world looking for things that support a unfounded opinion. He is a smart, inquisitive, thoughtful, and honest fellow who you should take at face value. There are varying opinions out there, and reasonable men will differ. Know that Warp is a guy who will help you know the issues better, and know yourself better as well.

HUH? I don't know what to make of that.

Matthew Courtney
11-10-2012, 19:11
HUH? I don't know what to make of that.

My Apologies. I mistakenly believed that your reference to brand whores was directed at Warp, and was letting you know that he is not one.

Sporaticus
11-10-2012, 19:29
My Apologies. I mistakenly believed that your reference to brand whores was directed at Warp, and was letting you know that he is not one.

Not at warp, just in general. Think about it. If someone posts that they have 30k rounds a year through a Stag AR with no problems, someone is going to call them a liar because that takes it to the next level. They just cannot have their brand outdone, and they desperately need validation that they have the "best".

I don't pay much attention to screen names.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 21:03
Not at warp, just in general. Think about it. If someone posts that they have 30k rounds a year through a Stag AR with no problems, someone is going to call them a liar because that takes it to the next level. They just cannot have their brand outdone, and they desperately need validation that they have the "best".

I don't pay much attention to screen names.

No they are going to have one of those,
"oh yeah?" moments due to the manufacturers history. More so w/ other manufacturers but you get the idea.

That's the thing. People get defensive and start throwing out words like "snob" "brand whore" etc. when they feel their brand is being insulted.

Look at that 19 rounds at dirt clods w/ my DPMS thread where the author felt it neccessary to attempt to bad mouth one of the most consistent/ trusted company in the AR market.

zhix
11-10-2012, 22:24
I have shot Armalite and S&W rifles that worked. I have owned 2 Bushmasters (made 2006 and earlier) that worked and were/are decent. I have multiple Colts that work.


I have a stag arms SBR that will now function but had to be returned 3 times; I am the reason they were given an F rating by the BBB and apparently they have gotten worse in customer service- months later at least one other complaint was filed and their rating remains the same.

glock031
11-10-2012, 23:35
I keep seeing M4C getting thrown out as the end all authority, and people disparaging DSC guns. Lets face it, if you are not an approved vendor or a gun sold by the approved vendors on M4C everything else sucks (can we say conflict of interest).

I don't know the parts anymore because I just don't care, but DSC/JT supply or used to supply many parts for the "approved by M4C" companies. Which is sort of laughable consider what they charge. FWIW I've seen lemons come out of Wilson's. sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.

You need to inspect the gun you are buying.

Sorry for any typos.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Smart man!

BCM and GR OWM M4C.

M4C is exactly where all the brand hate originated and gets parroted by the good ole boy pawns. They know who they are.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 23:40
Smart man!

BCM and GR OWM M4C.

OWM (OWN)? First time I heard of this. Any supporting documentation? If you're correct does it somehow change anything?

MD357
11-11-2012, 00:19
I don't think he's speaking literally.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 00:29
I don't think he's speaking literally.

I don't think he knows what he's speaking of, literally.

If a product is good it garners a following. It is weird that anyone would dislike something for being of extreme quality and a great value.

The same line of thinking goes for dislikeing someone because they have more experience. There seems to be a lot of dislike for M4C on GT yet there is a lot more knowledge based posts over at M4C. Kinda like the way girls always seem to dislike the girl all the guys want to date for no other reason than all the boys want to date her.

mvician
11-11-2012, 08:12
M4C is exactly where all the brand hate originated and gets parroted by the good ole boy pawns. They know who they are.

Brand hatred has been around longer than M4C :upeyes:

MD357
11-11-2012, 08:15
The same line of thinking goes for dislikeing someone because they have more experience. There seems to be a lot of dislike for M4C on GT yet there is a lot more knowledge based posts over at M4C. Kinda like the way girls always seem to dislike the girl all the guys want to date for no other reason than all the boys want to date her.

Yep that's the kind of arrogant attitude, everyone hates. You know, the girl that takes herself WAY too seriously then you get out of High School, and realize she wasn't all that.

Look I appreciate knowledge base, but you have to admit the "I'm so hard it hurts as I type this" attitude gets old over there. Warrior talk is the only forum that's worse. I will say that most acredited individuals don't come off that way, on any forum.

GlockRWH
11-11-2012, 08:36
Buy once... cry once. :crying:

Colt
LMT
BCM
Noveske
DD
LWRC
LaRue
POF
JPE
Stag
HK
FN

The budget ARs are fine for occasional plinking, but if you use one for extended periods of shooting, you'll see why they are less expensive (i.e. cheap).

Just my opinion.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 08:47
Yep that's the kind of arrogant attitude, everyone hates. You know, the girl that takes herself WAY too seriously then you get out of High School, and realize she wasn't all that.

Look I appreciate knowledge base, but you have to admit the "I'm so hard it hurts as I type this" attitude gets old over there. Warrior talk is the only forum that's worse. I will say that most acredited individuals don't come off that way, on any forum.

Imagine giving rock solid advice over and over mostly about the same 2-3 topics based on hands-on experience. Then a couple guys that spend a couple weekends a year shooting dirt clods at the farm start some "just fine" "good enough" BS.

I think the "I'm so hard...." attitude is a misconception by those who have had their feelings hurt. But I do agree if you're not aware it can be abrasive at first.

I don't know a fraction of what some of those guys know and I find myself getting annoyed at times. I can imagine making the effort to candy coat things quickly becomes labor intensive. I personally like M4C for the direct and to the point information. I'm not looking for conversation and it saves time. Blunt works. We are men after all.

MD357
11-11-2012, 09:40
Imagine giving rock solid advice over and over mostly about the same 2-3 topics based on hands-on experience. Then a couple guys that spend a couple weekends a year shooting dirt clods at the farm start some "just fine" "good enough" BS.

Yeah, I get all that, comes with the territory of being on the internet though. In the same sense you have guys that have no-name rifles with thousands of rounds through them and some will keep telling them they bought a POS because it wasn't a BCM, Nov, Colt, etc etc....

Now I'm not saying buy the cheapest by any means, I'm just saying there's a LOT of gray area it seems.



I think the "I'm so hard...." attitude is a misconception by those who have had their feelings hurt.

Nah, speaking for myself, I've been out in the real world long enough to understand some guys are insecure and have to throw their virtual d$cks out once in awhile to feel better. Happens quite often behind a computer for sure, but I will say again, that most acredited individuals don't act that way from my experience.


I don't know a fraction of what some of those guys know and I find myself getting annoyed at times. I can imagine making the effort to candy coat things quickly becomes labor intensive. I personally like M4C for the direct and to the point information. I'm not looking for conversation and it saves time. Blunt works. We are men after all.

Yeah, preachin to the choir here again...... try working in an ER sometime. I think the manner by which information is relayed isn't the problem. It's the self-perceived absolutism.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 09:50
Yeah, I get all that, comes with the territory of being on the internet though. In the same sense you have guys that have no-name rifles with thousands of rounds through them and some will keep telling them they bought a POS because it wasn't a BCM, Nov, Colt, etc etc....

Now I'm not saying buy the cheapest by any means, I'm just saying there's a LOT of gray area it seems.

Nah, speaking for myself, I've been out in the real world long enough to understand some guys are insecure and have to throw their virtual d$cks out once in awhile to feel better. Happens quite often behind a computer for sure, but I will say again, that most acredited individuals don't act that way from my experience.

Yeah, I get all that...... try working in an ER sometime. I think the manner by which information is relayed isn't the problem. It's the self-perceived absolutism.

There are always exceptions to every rule for sure. I think we are on the same page for the most part.

glock031
11-11-2012, 10:06
OWM (OWN)? First time I heard of this. Any supporting documentation? If you're correct does it somehow change anything?

Now you have heard for the first time.

Originaly posted by ar15 site staff - Aimless

"If you mean M4carbine it's owned by GandR Tactical (Grant Timberlake) and Bravo Company (Paul Buffoni) and run by Grant 'kicked off arfkom" Timberlake and Paul 'I got kicked off Arfkom too" Hotaling. Grant obviously is a Bravo Co dealer and Paul works for Alias Training and Security, which I think is owned by Bravo Company."

Yes BCM makes a good product. But so do many other companies that don't receive a honest nor fair play over at the non full disclosure we exist to support our product forum.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 14:02
Links please.

Also show me any other AR w/ a higher satisfaction rating and following than BCM. I am in no way a blind fanboy and own ARs from other manufacturers. But it's hard to deny the value BCM brings to the table.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Matthew Courtney
11-11-2012, 15:16
Links please.

Also show me any other AR w/ a higher satisfaction rating and following than BCM. I am in no way a blind fanboy and own ARs from other manufacturers. But it's hard to deny the value BCM brings to the table.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

BCM not only make top notch firearms, their innovation and execution in bringing accessories to the market has caused other companies to step up their games, which benefits us all. You just have to love a company that sells competitors stuff alongside their own. Do they market aggressively? Hell yes they do! Volume makes it possible for them to sell great gear at affordable prices.

Warp
11-11-2012, 18:58
Update: On the second to last round out of March 2009 production 20 round PMAG, with Federal M193, I had a failure to feed today. First non-flawless anything with it. Round count was less than expected for the day (barely over 300), putting the running total on the rifle to a little over 1,600

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 21:13
Warp, I'm not sure what manufacturer the AR was but I've heard the 20 rounders have had issues.

Warp
11-11-2012, 21:24
Warp, I'm not sure what manufacturer the AR was but I've heard the 20 rounders have had issues.

I had heard about the 20 round PMAGs maybe not being up to par. I only have one, and I haven't used it very much because, well, I heard enough to make it kinda questionable in my mind.

We'll see if I ever use that magazine again. :rofl:

AA_Khost
11-12-2012, 04:36
[quote=Brian Brazier;19609041]for all the DS Haters here is Larry Vickers testing one
Tactical Arms - The M4 (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube


Dang,Larry put on a couple pounds in the past few years. :whistling:


As for AR's I'll stick with my LaRue's and my Colts and my lone LMT.
I do have a Bushmaster that has been flawless but its from years ago when their QC was righteous.

MD357
11-12-2012, 06:47
Now you have heard for the first time.

Originaly posted by ar15 site staff - Aimless

"If you mean M4carbine it's owned by GandR Tactical (Grant Timberlake) and Bravo Company (Paul Buffoni) and run by Grant 'kicked off arfkom" Timberlake and Paul 'I got kicked off Arfkom too" Hotaling. Grant obviously is a Bravo Co dealer and Paul works for Alias Training and Security, which I think is owned by Bravo Company."

Yes BCM makes a good product. But so do many other companies that don't receive a honest nor fair play over at the non full disclosure we exist to support our product forum.

I stand corrected, he WAS being literal. :cool:

fuzzy03cls
11-12-2012, 08:53
My experience with DPMS LPK's has been outstanding. I have 2 rifles now with them & they each have seen abuse.
Most small parts are made by CMT & lowers are also made by a few companies & then sent to whatever maker to finish them.
It's very likely to get the same parts from a DPMS kit as a DD kit or a spikes.
Again you have to understand how AR parts are made. Once you do all this brand snobbish crap gets put to bed. Believe whatever you guys want. My experience will dictate what I do.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 11:04
Yep because there is no such thing as quality control of incoming parts from these "few companies."

Brian Brazier
11-12-2012, 11:42
[quote=Brian Brazier;19609041]for all the DS Haters here is Larry Vickers testing one
Tactical Arms - The M4 (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5CfZS6E1s)


Dang,Larry put on a couple pounds in the past few years. :whistling:


As for AR's I'll stick with my LaRue's and my Colts and my lone LMT.
I do have a Bushmaster that has been flawless but its from years ago when their QC was righteous.

Yeah he has, I think the AR market is allot like the 1911 market, you have everything from low end production to high end production, semi and full on custom. Much like the 1911 market I belive there are lower priced rifles that might not be 100% "Milspec", but will provide years of failure free shooting for the owner.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 11:54
Yep because there is no such thing as quality control of incoming parts from these "few companies."

Great point! Gun makers do not just recieve parts and put them together. They moniter the quality of the parts and the rifles at every step of the assembly process. Recognizing out of spec parts as well as tolerance stacking with inspections and function checks are integral parts of the manufacturing process for the better manufacturers.

Chuck TX
11-13-2012, 09:01
I did no such thing. You are a liar. List the names of the people I supposedly degraded and the number of the post in which I allegedly degraded them.

Perhaps it was an unintended insinuation that folks who relay bad experiences with [insert] brand are mall ninjas. Which has become the favorite rally cry during brand war threads. Maybe that is not what you meant.

Whenever there's a thread rolling along and most folks are participating civilly, providing info based on personal experiences and science, it never fails that someone jumps in with name calling and a position based on what so and so allegedly uses.

I guess I saw in your post what killed this sub-forum, and why industry professional don't come here.

LL6
11-13-2012, 09:49
I guess I saw in your post what killed this sub-forum, and why industry professional don't come here.
I see people who want to ask questions without running the gauntlet of elitest bashings.

Matthew Courtney
11-13-2012, 10:21
Perhaps it was an unintended insinuation that folks who relay bad experiences with [insert] brand are mall ninjas. Which has become the favorite rally cry during brand war threads. Maybe that is not what you meant.

Whenever there's a thread rolling along and most folks are participating civilly, providing info based on personal experiences and science, it never fails that someone jumps in with name calling and a position based on what so and so allegedly uses.

I guess I saw in your post what killed this sub-forum, and why industry professional don't come here.

There was no unintended insinuation of anything. There was a direct, intended statement that mall ninjas abound who parrot what they have heard or read. Most statements about brands to avoid are made by folks with little or no first hand experience with those brands.

There are a couple of guys, Warp and Mj, among others, who limit their commentary to what they have seen. Guys who do that are not mall ninjas. Mall ninjas don't get out from behind the keyboard and help others learn to shoot, or shoot enough themselves to have first hand experiences to share. It was you, not me, that lumped informed thread contributers in with those parroting something they read while watching Spongebob.

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 10:34
It's funny. We as a nation are fine w/ the education learned from reading text books and sitting through lectures by those who learned from text books to run the nation. Here however reading/researching a subject is dismissed as regurgitation.

I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.

P99er
11-13-2012, 10:44
Typically, it is assumed a teacher has credentials and is certified to teach, and their performance is evaluated on a regular basis.

And teachers mostly don't just teach their "opinion", they generally stick to generally accepted knowledge in the subject, and follow the course as laid out by the school\university.

Internet wannabees....... not so much.

LL6
11-13-2012, 10:46
I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.
I guess this offsets your quote from Sporaticus? :whistling:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rampid

P99er
11-13-2012, 11:01
I guess this offsets your quote from Sporaticus? :whistling:

And he wants to be our teacher, and wants us all to look to him for input on our buying decisions. :faint:

Warp
11-13-2012, 11:14
It's funny. We as a nation are fine w/ the education learned from reading text books and sitting through lectures by those who learned from text books to run the nation. Here however reading/researching a subject is dismissed as regurgitation.

I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.

I am a very serious member and contributor on a forum for weight training/powerlifting/bodybuilding, all that stuff, and you know what? Nobody who 'learned' from a text book or a lecture has an opinion that anybody else gives a **** about. The textbook/classroom/labcoat types never know a damn thing compared to the guys who have done it, and who have helped others learn how to do it.

And the guys who show up with their fancy certifications or degrees are the absolute worst...they don't have a ****ing clue. (this includes MDs, chiropractors, personal trainers, and the like....95% are wrong on almost everything)

Don't put too much stake in textbook knowledge, especially wen it contradicts real life experience based knowledge.

*Though you do need to remember sample size and context. For example, I'm sure Matthew Courtney's experiences are several orders of magnitude greater than mine. And guys like LAV or Costa probably an order of magnitude greater still.

Whether you are reading a textbook or listening to one's experience, try to find out what their actual experience is, how much of it they have, and what the context/situation was for said experience. You may find that the people writing the textbooks don't really know very much.


Edit: Perhaps our willingness to take anything from a textbook (or from a person who learned from textbooks) as the gospel truth is part of why our educational system, as a country, SUCKS, and why foreigners seem to dominate the landscape at so many major universities.

Chuck TX
11-13-2012, 12:24
There was no unintended insinuation of anything. There was a direct, intended statement that mall ninjas abound who parrot what they have heard or read. Most statements about brands to avoid are made by folks with little or no first hand experience with those brands.

There are a couple of guys, Warp and Mj, among others, who limit their commentary to what they have seen. Guys who do that are not mall ninjas. Mall ninjas don't get out from behind the keyboard and help others learn to shoot, or shoot enough themselves to have first hand experiences to share. It was you, not me, that lumped informed thread contributers in with those parroting something they read while watching Spongebob.

Ok, my apologies, clearly I got you wrong then. :wavey:

It was the "mall ninja" comment ironically followed by the often used by mall ninja argument of [insert brand] is good because so and so uses it that confused me. I jumped the gun.

P99er
11-13-2012, 13:11
IEdit: Perhaps our willingness to take anything from a textbook (or from a person who learned from textbooks) as the gospel truth .....

There are a lot of teachers who believe and teach that the Second Amendment applies only to the government and military, and is not an individual right.

P99er
11-13-2012, 13:15
It was the "mall ninja" comment ironically followed by the often used by mall ninja argument of [insert brand] is good because so and so uses it that confused me. I jumped the gun.

I think it is more along the lines of "[insert brand] is good because the chart indicates it is", and all the so and so's push the chart. To be accepted as knowledgeable in that community, you have to espouse the chart.

Panglоss
11-13-2012, 13:27
There are a lot of teachers who believe and teach that the Second Amendment applies only to the government and military, and is not an individual right.

Well, it's not like this is some huge mistake or oversight.

In fact, until the recent Heller decision, the courts never held the second amendment to guarantee an individual right either. And half of the current supreme court members disagree still. Note that a collective right of "the people" can be different from simply saying that the amendment would only apply to the government or to the military...which wouldn't even make sense anyway.

What's more disturbing is the great number of teachers who still neglect teaching evolution.

Warp
11-13-2012, 14:11
I think it is more along the lines of "[insert brand] is good because the chart indicates it is", and all the so and so's push the chart. To be accepted as knowledgeable in that community, you have to espouse the chart.

FWIW: In my experience 9 times out of 10 that the chart is referenced these days, it's by somebody arguing against it, as you are here.

P99er
11-13-2012, 15:15
I'm not arguing against the chart. I use the chart quite often. Before I buy an AR, I look at the chart. I haven't been able to find it lately, and it appears the author has been banned from M4C

jakebrake
11-13-2012, 16:44
Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.

you mean, it's not just my imagination?

joe0121
11-14-2012, 04:29
Ill chime in. I just built my AR using mostly Parts from PSA, with some Magpul and a New Frontier Polymer lower thrown in. 420 rounds later with a single failure that was the fault of the weapon. Including several mag dumps. Wife tried to force a mag in backwards which caused the mag to break and double feed once I inserted it properly.


The big difference in price comes down to the barrel and accessories. Make sure you are getting a quality barrel. Typically this mean chrome lined hammer forged 5.56 chamber with a 1-7 twist but not always. Slower twist will really only work with 233 and light projectiles.

Here is a crappy cell phone pick:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/mojo_jo-jo/IMAG0083-1.jpg

Rooster Rugburn
11-14-2012, 04:56
I know one training school who doesn't allow students in their carbine classes to use home build rifles. I read something the chief instructor said on the net, so I don't know if they reject certain brands, but I have seen him say they don't allow home builds because of the high failure rate. I guess when someone is having problems, it disrupts the class.

fuzzy03cls
11-14-2012, 07:25
I would think rules like that are more for insurance reasons. Having a home built gun induces a bit of legal issues if it blows up & injures someone.

Matthew Courtney
11-14-2012, 07:33
I know one training school who doesn't allow students in their carbine classes to use home build rifles. I read something the chief instructor said on the net, so I don't know if they reject certain brands, but I have seen him say they don't allow home builds because of the high failure rate. I guess when someone is having problems, it disrupts the class.

Folks in my classes get one firearm or ammo caused malfunction. On the second one, we put a carbine or ammo in their hands that we know works. It is simply to distracting to the training process to have malfunction troubleshooting happening constantly on the firing line. Shooters who clear malfunctions efficiently and resume shooting without delay and resume the drill without distracting other students may be allowed to continue with their own gear at the discretion of the RSO.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 08:07
It's disruptive as hell. You end up sitting on the line waiting for the instructor to diagnose some turd carbine.

While running team drills, downed vehicle, the shooter I was paired up w/ kept having problems. Their carbine went single shot. Hundreds of dollars and a 6 hour drive later I felt slighted out of valuable training.

I had a lady schedule a private instruction. She showed up w/ a High Point. the majority of the PI was spent messing w/ the low quality handgun.

________________

The creator of the chart, IMO, was a great source of straight forward no nonsense honest information. The kind I prefer as the candy coated BS is a waste of time. He spoke his mind. Many don't like honesty when it doesnt support their assumptions. He once sent a jab my way. At first I was pissed but then after a minute of thought I realized he was correct.

From my understanding the author of the chart is locating and deleting all traces of that document. It is a shame as it helped create informed consumers.

P99er
11-14-2012, 08:44
It's disruptive as hell. You end up sitting on the line waiting for the instructor to diagnose some turd carbine.

Is it a "rampid" problem? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 08:54
.................

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 08:57
Is it a "rampid" problem? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yes, a problem you are a consistent participant in.

I find there is a common thread b/w those that use smiley faces in their posts.

Try making a viable contribution instead of being a leach.

P99er
11-14-2012, 10:00
Yes, a problem you are a consistent participant in.

I find there is a common thread b/w those that use smiley faces in their posts.

Try making a viable contribution instead of being a leach.

~560 posts in 11 years. I must not be too consistent. I guess English isn't your only weak subject, but math too.

I'll try not to be too "rampid". :tongueout:

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 10:16
Lol, hang on to that if it helps and thank you for illustrating my point. I'll try and make another mistake in the next couple thousand posts so you have something to post about.

Warp
11-14-2012, 10:23
The above is a good reason to require factory ammunition, too.

nursetim
11-14-2012, 10:37
:popcorn:

Guys here will have different opinions, based on their experiences, and/or repeating what they have heard or read.

The guy above said Olympic Arms is no good, well I had one that ran great and never gave me a problem. This holds true with any brand, one guy will have one that works, the next guy has one thats junk.

It's safe to say many less expensive AR brands have spotty quality control, your chances of getting a lemon are higher than a higher end brand.


edit: Do a search here, there is hundreds of "what AR should I get threads".

Good point, how about this then. For a person on a beer budget, what are the top 3-4 ARs.

joe0121
11-14-2012, 10:42
Folks in my classes get one firearm or ammo caused malfunction. On the second one, we put a carbine or ammo in their hands that we know works. It is simply to distracting to the training process to have malfunction troubleshooting happening constantly on the firing line. Shooters who clear malfunctions efficiently and resume shooting without delay and resume the drill without distracting other students may be allowed to continue with their own gear at the discretion of the RSO.
Reminds me. I need to get out and start running some drills. A lot of rifle work great at the rifle range and screwing around on the farm. But maybe not so much during hardcore run and gun.

Warp
11-14-2012, 10:43
Good point, how about this then. For a person on a beer budget, what are the top 3-4 ARs.

If you cannot (or are just not willing to) afford a BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, LMT, LaRue, etc. etc.

I would next look at:
Spikes
S&W
PSA



Personally.

joe0121
11-14-2012, 10:45
If you cannot (or are just not willing to) afford a BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, LMT, LaRue, etc. etc.

I would next look at:
Spikes
S&W
PSA



Personally.
I like spikes stuff, but they are out of a lot of their lowers at the moment. Last I looked every single lower receiver was back ordered for months.

LL6
11-14-2012, 13:48
I find there is a common thread b/w those that use smiley faces in their posts.


Did you count this as a smiley face? The reason I ask is you got that thread locked. :crying:

http://www.forumsextreme.com/images2/Funny-Pics_Animated_Ak47Cat.gif

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 18:14
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

Warp
11-14-2012, 18:20
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

Aware me

glock031
11-14-2012, 18:57
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

There is zero evidence about Spikes lying about materials used. You made the blanket statement now it's up to you to prove and back up with links and evidence. Bet you can't. What's the excuse going to be this time. And please no help from the i dropped my slide and can't get back up welcher....

Warp
11-14-2012, 18:58
There is zero evidence about Spikes lying about materials used. You made the blanket statement now it's up to you to prove and back up with links and evidence. Bet you can't.

I have read an awful lot, on many sites, about Spikes...including a lot on M4C where a lot of members don't like Spikes.

But this is still the first time I have heard anything about them lying about materials used.

Very interested in seeing your evidence, mjkeat

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 19:29
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

$879 and $865 is "right at $900?" :upeyes: Anyway, there are 2 carbines under $1000 and even if Spike's got called out to prove their "milspec" claims, that was years ago. They are "milspec" now and have posted their material certificates for the world to see.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/complete-rifles-c-113.html?page=2&sort=20a

Warp
11-14-2012, 19:30
$879 and $865 is "right at $900?" :upeyes: Anyway, there are 2 carbines under $1000 and even if Spike's got called out to prove their "milspec" claims, that was years ago. They are "milspec" now and have posted their material certificates for the world to see.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/complete-rifles-c-113.html?page=2&sort=20a

The price of a product on 8-12 month backorder doesn't interest me much, though...and probably doesn't interest a whole lot of buyers that are currently in the market, either.

Singlestack Wonder
11-14-2012, 19:30
An AR is an AR - learn about them and you can make any one work as well as the next. They are like 1911's that way. High dollar brand names are for people who don't know enough to build their own.

Looking above, for example: Double Star makes some of the best parts I've ever had on an AR or a 1911 and I've built both with their parts - excellent quality, but the newbs don't know the name and don't know enough to see the differences, beyond brand names.

:rofl:

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 19:32
I have read an awful lot, on many sites, about Spikes...including a lot on M4C where a lot of members don't like Spikes.

But this is still the first time I have heard anything about them lying about materials used.

Very interested in seeing your evidence, mjkeat

There was a big hoopla on AR15.com over Spikes claims of using "milspec" materials for their products. The threads were probably deleted but a while later Tom posted the certificates "proving" their claims.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_282/194245_Spike_s_Tactical_Certification_Documents.html

Warp
11-14-2012, 19:38
There was a big hoopla on AR15.com over Spikes claims of using "milspec" materials for their products. The threads were probably deleted but a while later Tom posted the certificates "proving" their claims.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_282/194245_Spike_s_Tactical_Certification_Documents.html

arf.com responsible for spreading misinformation? Never! :rofl:

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 19:38
But the dates on the paperwork were for later dates than when the claims were made.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 19:39
The price of a product on 8-12 month backorder doesn't interest me much, though...and probably doesn't interest a whole lot of buyers that are currently in the market, either.

It may not interest you, but considering how RRA is always backordered, people seem to still be ordering from them and Legal Transfers. You cannot assume what the market wants based on what interests you.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 19:42
But the dates on the paperwork were for later dates than when the claims were made.

"But a while later" isn't too complex to comprehend Detective. Well, it shouldn't be....

Warp
11-14-2012, 19:42
But the dates on the paperwork were for later dates than when the claims were made.

Does that necessarily mean anything?

Is this all you have to support your claim? That the paperwork proving the materials are from a later date than the claim?


It may not interest you, but considering how RRA is always backordered, people seem to still be ordering from them and Legal Transfers. You cannot assume what the market wants based on what interests you.

I think that if somebody is shopping around for an AR, and you are offering advice on which ones to consider, the fact that they are on 8-12 month backorder should be mentioned up front. That is a rather significant fact.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 19:52
I think that if somebody is shopping around for an AR, and you are offering advice on which ones to consider, the fact that they are on 8-12 month backorder should be mentioned up front. That is a rather significant fact.

The backorder is an estimate for new orders. For all we know, Distributors are getting their orders from Spikes as they get assembled... and test fired.:supergrin: I'm not a dealer, but I would be willing to bet they are just getting the basic M4 models and not ordering the accessorized models to hang off their shelf.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 19:53
RRA isn't a solid rebuttal.

When dates don't match up something is fishy. Specially when it seemed to be like pulling teeth to get the proof. Like the birth certificate thing.

Anyway, I'm not here to bash Spikes as like I said I have owned one and was happy w/ it. The wait however isn't worth it when there is equal or better for a similar price available w/o the wait.

Edit:

Does that necessarily mean anything?

Is this all you have to support your claim? That the paperwork proving the materials are from a later date than the claim?

It means that the claims could not be proven. He could not produce paperwork showing certain lots were produced following milspec standards as he claimed.

Warp
11-14-2012, 19:54
The backorder is an estimate for new orders. For all we know, Distributors are getting their orders from Spikes as they get assembled... and test fired.:supergrin: I'm not a dealer, but I would be willing to bet they are just getting the basic M4 models and not ordering the accessorized models to hang off their shelf.

The source you used to quote prices from showed an 8-12 month backorder.

If distributors have them in stock and available, why not link to them and quote those prices?

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 20:05
The price of a product on 8-12 month backorder doesn't interest me much, though...and probably doesn't interest a whole lot of buyers that are currently in the market, either.

It may not interest you, but considering how RRA is always backordered, people seem to still be ordering from them and Legal Transfers. You cannot assume what the market wants based on what interests you.

RRA isn't a solid rebuttal.


I swear it would be easier on me if I ignored you completely. Please tell me in what way Rock River Arms backorder status is not a suitable rebuttal in contex to Warp's comment.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 20:08
The source you used to quote prices from showed an 8-12 month backorder.

If distributors have them in stock and available, why not link to them and quote those prices?

Edit. I posted the link to prove mjkeat was wrong in saying all Spikes AR's were over $1000. In fact there were 2 that were not.

Warp
11-14-2012, 20:12
Edit. I posted the link to prove mjkeat was wrong in saying all Spikes AR's were over $1000. In fact there were 2 that were not.

You are correct.



But 8-12 months backorder on both of them...that sucks.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 20:28
I swear it would be easier on me if I ignored you completely. Please tell me in what way Rock River Arms backorder status is not a suitable rebuttal in contex to Warp's comment.

It would be for sure.

Because RRA does it, it's alright. Right?

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 20:31
It would be for sure.

Because RRA does it, it's alright. Right?

Exactly what I thought.:upeyes:

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 20:53
Just like I said all Spikes are over $1k. Do you need a hug?

I know you're doing everything you can to prove me wrong in any way. Even if it takes twisting my words and make things up. Anyway, how about we stop taking away from the thread. I'm sorry...

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 20:55
Just like I said all Spikes are over $1k. Do you need a hug?

I know you're doing everything you can to prove me wrong in any way. Even if it takes twisting my words and make things up. Anyway, how about we stop taking away from the thread. I'm sorry...

Example?

Ruggles
11-14-2012, 20:59
In just for a change of avatars from the last 2 pages of post. You guys are getting after it with each other. :rofl:

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 21:07
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

Edit. I posted the link to prove mjkeat was wrong in saying all Spikes AR's were over $1000. In fact there were 2 that were not.

And that was just this page.

I thought you wre going to ignore me. I think it would be better for the site if you did.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 21:10
And that was just this page.

I thought you wre going to ignore me. I think it would be better for the site if you did.

You: Except for one.
Me: There were two.

Next attempt.

Rooster Rugburn
11-14-2012, 21:14
I swear it would be easier on me if I ignored you completely.

You don't want him to keep spreading disinformation unchecked, do you?

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 21:18
You: Except for one.
Me: There were two.

Next attempt.

LOL, point proven. I said except for one. One is not none. As far as 2, they do have 2 for under $1k. It's the same thing except one is carbine the other is midlength.

Friend, if I've hurt your feelings that you need to act like this just ignore me. Thanks for the .300blk info by the way. Take care.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 21:21
You don't want him to keep spreading disinformation unchecked, do you?

Good point. W/O him some might think Spike only makes one AR for under $1k instead of two. Wiping the beads of perspiration off of my brow.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 21:22
LOL, point proven. I said except for one. One is not none. As far as 2, they do have 2 for under $1k. It's the same thing except one is carbine the other is midlength.

Friend, if I've hurt your feelings that you need to act like this just ignore me. Thanks for the .300blk info by the way. Take care.

What's w/ all these jokers that make stern statements than get soft when asked to provide support? Right or wrong support your statement.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 21:27
What's w/ all these jokers that make stern statements than get soft when asked to provide support? Right or wrong support your statement.

Explain. What statements? You can PM me if you'd like so the thread can attempt to retain some resemblance of its intended purpose.

My point was clear. I said one (1) and you claimed I said they didn't have any under $1k. You twisted my words and made things up in an attempt to prove me wrong. If I hurt your feelings somewhere down the line bad enough that you need to lie in order to prove me wrong, I'm sorry (I'm not really sorry).

You did however provide me w/ a good link pertaining to the 300blk. And for that I thank you.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 21:44
Explain. What statements? You can PM me if you'd like so the thread can attempt to retain some resemblance of its intended purpose.

My point was clear. I said one (1) and you claimed I said they didn't have any under $1k. You twisted my words and made things up in an attempt to prove me wrong. If I hurt your feelings somewhere down the line bad enough that you need to lie in order to prove me wrong, I'm sorry (I'm not really sorry).

You did however provide me w/ a good link pertaining to the 300blk. And for that I thank you.

Now, take this experience and think about it when you do this silly **** to others. Frankly I do not care one bit to disprove any comment you make. This is a forum to learn and share ideas about firearms and other things grownups like. You are no authority to be "checking" any other member here especially about their opinion.

And just note: When I disprove you, I do it directly. I do not respond with extraneous bull**** questions that have nothing to do with the comment you quoted. Share your opinion. That is what we are here for. If you want to regurgitate M4C tier one speshul forces meme... go back over there then.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 22:01
Funny considering you have yet to disprove anything I have said. There's a reason for that. Unless I'm 100% sure about something I state that I'm not. The majority of the time if I don't know something I don't reply and follow the thread so that I can learn. I then follow it up w/ my own research. I usually don't discuss opinion as opinion rarely means anything. I do not regurgitate information. What I speak on is first hand. I spend a lot of time on the range. I shoot indoors a couple of times or more a week and once or twice a week outdoors. I am constantly researching and trying out new things as well as the things people talk about on this site. Trust but confirm through hands on.

I don't need to stretch the truth or lie or twist others words.

The only thing that can be taken away from this is the fact that you cannot count, have personal issues w/ me, hate being wrong, and will lie in an attempt to prove others wrong.

Sorry I hurt you. No need to call names. I also find it funny that you would insult a group of guys who stand head and shoulders over you when it comes to knowledge of firearms. Defensively overcompensating?

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 22:08
Funny considering you have yet to disprove anything I have said. There's a reason for that. Unless I'm 100% sure about something I state that I'm not. The majority of the time if I don't know something I don't reply and follow the thread so that I can learn. I then follow it up w/ my own research. I usually don't discuss opinion as opinion rarely means anything. I do not regurgitate information. What I speak on is first hand. I spend a lot of time on the range. I shoot indoors a couple of times or more a week and once or twice a week outdoors. I am constantly researching and trying out new things as well as the things people talk about on this site. Trust but confirm through hands on.

I don't need to stretch the truth or lie or twist others words.

The only thing that can be taken away from this is the fact that you cannot count, have personal issues w/ me, hate being wrong, and will lie in an attempt to prove others wrong.

Sorry I hurt you. No need to call names. I also find it funny that you would insult a group of guys who stand head and shoulders over you when it comes to knowledge of firearms. Defensively overcompensating?
Okay. So I haven't disproved anything you have said, I lie, stretch truths AND twist others words?

1. Prove it. Quote button is right there.

2. Buy a mirror.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 22:23
1. Look at the previous page.

2. Have them everywhere. My wife seems to like mirrors for some reason. She likes to look at herself I guess, honestly I like to look at her as well.

I'm starting to think this is an episode of PUNKED (looking for the cameras).

glock031
11-14-2012, 22:24
But the dates on the paperwork were for later dates than when the claims were made.

That is not proof of your liable remark about Spikes. You always are the first to ask for links and evidence. It is clear you came up short here.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 22:29
1. Look at the previous page.

2. Have them everywhere. My wife seems to like mirrors for some reason. She likes to look at herself I guess, honestly I like to look at her as well.

I'm starting to think this is an episode of PUNKED (looking for the cameras).

I asked for proof. You are not providing it.

Warp
11-14-2012, 22:32
That is not proof of your liable remark about Spikes. You always are the first to ask for links and evidence. It is clear you came up short here.

I asked for proof. You are not providing it.

I'm going with the above.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 22:32
That is not proof of your liable remark about Spikes. You always are the first to ask for links and evidence. It is clear you came up short here.

Are you serious? When one claims tests were done in a certain time frame and the dates on the labs data sheets don't match it doesn't add up.

It's like presenting an insurance card that covers 01-01-11 to 12-01-11 in an attempt to get a no insurance ticket from 02-01-12 dismissed. It shows that you had insurance on those dates but it doesn't prove you had insurance on 02-01-12

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 22:34
I asked for proof. You are not providing it.

I quoted your own words.

This has got to be a joke or something in the air.

Warp
11-14-2012, 22:35
Are you serious? When one claims tests were done in a certain time frame and the dates on the labs data sheets don't match it doesn't add up.

I don't recall seeing where that happened.

Source?

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 22:37
I don't recall seeing where that happened.

Source?

This has already been discussed. The site removed/deleted the posts due to the fact Spikes is a sponsor. Even the guy w/ the hardon for me stated this.

Come on, not you as well.

Warp
11-14-2012, 22:41
This has already been discussed. The site removed/deleted the posts due to the fact Spikes is a sponsor. Even the guy w/ the hardon for me stated this.

Come on, not you as well.

What I recall reading was that a typical arf.com joke of a thread with baseless allegations was deleted.

I don't recall anybody but you saying anything about Spike's lying about anything.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 22:47
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.
What words did I twist?
$879 and $865 is "right at $900?" :upeyes: Anyway, there are 2 carbines under $1000 and even if Spike's got called out to prove their "milspec" claims, that was years ago. They are "milspec" now and have posted their material certificates for the world to see.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/complete-rifles-c-113.html?page=2&sort=20a

Edit. I posted the link to prove mjkeat was wrong in saying all Spikes AR's were over $1000. In fact there were 2 that were not.

Just like I said all Spikes are over $1k. Do you need a hug?

I know you're doing everything you can to prove me wrong in any way. Even if it takes twisting my words and make things up. Anyway, how about we stop taking away from the thread. I'm sorry...
What's made up?
Explain. What statements? You can PM me if you'd like so the thread can attempt to retain some resemblance of its intended purpose.

My point was clear. I said one (1) and you claimed I said they didn't have any under $1k. You twisted my words and made things up in an attempt to prove me wrong. If I hurt your feelings somewhere down the line bad enough that you need to lie in order to prove me wrong, I'm sorry (I'm not really sorry).

You did however provide me w/ a good link pertaining to the 300blk. And for that I thank you.

I quoted your own words.

This has got to be a joke or something in the air.

Your cognitive skills need refining.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 22:55
Read the first paragraph of mine you quoted. See the sentences after the one you highlighted in red? Yes those sentences. Especially the one that starts with "Except one." It goes a little something like, Except one which is right at $900...

Your claims that I said they are all $1k is a lie. You're a liar. Nothing worse than a liar.

Stop twisting words and lying to keep from being proven wrong.

I have a long day of shooting tomorrow. Sleep good my friend.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 23:02
Read the first paragraph of mine you quoted. See the sentences after the one you highlighted in red? Yes those sentences. Especially the one that starts with "Except one." It goes a little something like, Except one which is right at $900...

Stop twisting words and lying to keep from being proven wrong.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

:shocked: Even with proof right in front of your face?

You are either in denial, to lazy to make a valid point. ETA2: or can't count.

ETA: And it's highlighted in green. My corresponding response to it is also highighted in green and the whole quote under yours.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 23:07
I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

What part of that do you not understand?

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 23:18
What part of that do you not understand?

There were 2 and not "right at $900". Were you including shipping, FFL transfer and background check?:upeyes:

ETA: Here's an easy one. Find a Colt 6920 under $1000 and in stock.

glock031
11-14-2012, 23:34
Are you serious? When one claims tests were done in a certain time frame and the dates on the labs data sheets don't match it doesn't add up.

It's like presenting an insurance card that covers 01-01-11 to 12-01-11 in an attempt to get a no insurance ticket from 02-01-12 dismissed. It shows that you had insurance on those dates but it doesn't prove you had insurance on 02-01-12



It was m4c that accused Tom from Spikes. The burden of proof is on the accusers. They didn't prove a dam thing. Toms mistake was being lured into a gutter fight with "them". Then he was banned.

Tom didn't have to post any certs at all.

You posted a claim and been asked to back it up with facts. You know just like you ask for links all the time. Well where's your proof that Spikes is using subpar materials?

Spikes can post anything they want with any dates on it they like. Or they can post nothing at all. These accusations are not thier burden of proof.

Now they're yours since you regurgitated it.

glock031
11-14-2012, 23:43
This has already been discussed. The site removed/deleted the posts due to the fact Spikes is a sponsor. Even the guy w/ the hardon for me stated this.

Come on, not you as well.

It was m4c not ar15.com

Google it----Spikes m4carbine.net

Warp
11-14-2012, 23:48
It was M4C?

Then I am even more certain that the accusations were unfounded and mjkeat will never be able to support his statement because it is not true. M4C just had a discussion on Spikes not long ago...and not a single person even mentioned this as a possibility or a concern...even though there were plenty of regular/long time posters and many Spikes-unfriendly posters in the thread.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 07:36
There were 2 and not "right at $900". Were you including shipping, FFL transfer and background check?:upeyes:

ETA: Here's an easy one. Find a Colt 6920 under $1000 and in stock.

Now you're changing the discussion. Your claim was that I said 0 when in fact I said 1. As far as price goes $880 is "right at $900". I recognized the fact I was incorrect about stateing 1 when there is two. The fact remains that theres a 8-12 Month wait. Read their forum and see how their wait times go. But then again I know your grabbing at whatever you can.

_________________________

As far as the Spikes thing goes. I know what I read. I followed it very closely as I was considering a Spikes at the time. I ended up purchasing the Spikes and as I said earlier I was happy w/ it even though it didn't see the round count the others did. Discount it if you'd like.

Edit: warp you're correct. I made a statement and the info to support that statement no longer exists. Lesson learned. Don't assume what was once there is still there. Check before posting to make sure the mod monsters didn't eat your homework.

MarkCO
11-15-2012, 08:43
Poor pennypincher...I hope he got some benefit from his question, especially now that the thread is so far off the rails arguning about other forums and who posted what and when.

Enjoy the gunshow pennypincher!

Matthew Courtney
11-15-2012, 09:51
If someone is shooting at me, a Bushmaster that I have test fired and sighted in is better than an invoice that says my Spike's should be here soon...

joe0121
11-15-2012, 10:34
If someone is shooting at me, a Bushmaster that I have test fired and sighted in is better than an invoice that says my Spike's should be here soon...
:rofl:

Matthew Courtney
11-15-2012, 11:35
:rofl:

Freeze dirt bag, I know what your thinking, is that a Colt or a Bushmaster? Well considering that this is an invoice for a Spikes AR, the most reliable carbine in the world, and documents that I saved 12%, you need to ask yourself one question- do I fell lucky? We'll do you punk? Do you feel lucky enough to rob us, rape my wife, and kidnap my kids before the UPS guy gets here?

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/11/eastern_new_orleans_dentists_s.html#incart_m-rpt-2

LL6
11-15-2012, 11:54
Freeze dirt bag, I know what your thinking, is that a Colt or a Bushmaster? Well considering that this is an invoice for a Spikes AR, the most reliable carbine in the world, and documents that I saved 12%, you need to ask yourself one question- do I fell lucky? We'll do you punk? Do you feel lucky enough to rob us, rape my wife, and kidnap my kids before the UPS guy gets here?

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/11/eastern_new_orleans_dentists_s.html#incart_m-rpt-2
Good adaptation of the famous Eastwood quote. :thumbsup:

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 12:11
It was m4c not ar15.com

Google it----Spikes m4carbine.net

There was some "spillover" into Spikes Industry section on arfcom. But, I did not know it originated over on M4C.

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 12:20
Now you're changing the discussion. Your claim was that I said 0 when in fact I said 1. As far as price goes $880 is "right at $900". I recognized the fact I was incorrect about stateing 1 when there is two. The fact remains that theres a 8-12 Month wait. Read their forum and see how their wait times go. But then again I know your grabbing at whatever you can.


Where did I ever say anything about wait times? See, not sticking to the point with extraneous babble again.

The sad fact remains that you do not see the absurdity of you own posts. You can only cling to ONE of my posts that you claim I have twisted your words and lie to prove you wrong. Go through any thread I post in and note how many people I "call out" based on exactly what they posted, vs how many of your "questions" have very little to do with the post you quoted.

ETA: Your interpretation of "right at" is incorrect.

right: adj -exactly; precisely: right here.

at: preposition -(used to indicate a location or position, as in time, on a scale, or in order): at zero; at noon; at age 65; at the end; at the lowest point.

The prices of the Spikes weapons under $1000 were not (by definition) "exactly or precisely in the position of numerical value" equal to $900.

Did I lie, twist your words or stretch the truth here as well?

Big Bird
11-15-2012, 16:55
Good Gravy you people argue over the most arcane things.

My crap is better than your crap...for one reason.... BECAUSE ITS MINE!

Your crap is junk...for a different reason... BECAUSE ITS YOURS!

Deal with it...

Matthew Courtney
11-15-2012, 17:59
Good Gravy you people argue over the most arcane things.

My crap is better than your crap...for one reason.... BECAUSE ITS MINE!

Your crap is junk...for a different reason... BECAUSE ITS YOURS!

Deal with it...

Dey red inda Bible dat envy was a sin. Dey jus wanna be righteous God fearin' folks, fo shizzle!

Rinspeed
11-15-2012, 18:11
Dey red inda Bible dat envy was a sin. Dey jus wanna be righteous God fearin' folks, fo shizzle!




Don't be posting crap like that again. :upeyes:

jb1911
11-15-2012, 18:15
I think it's actually pretty hard to get a bad rifle these days. Just my 2 cents.

Rooster Rugburn
11-15-2012, 18:26
Good Gravy you people argue over the most arcane things.

My crap is better than your crap...for one reason.... BECAUSE ITS MINE!

Your crap is junk...for a different reason... BECAUSE ITS YOURS!

Deal with it...

The question is, now that LA_357Sig thoroughly owns mjkeat, does he have to feed him?

LA's sig line is classic. How can anyone take anything mjkeat says seriously when he has been proven to ...... grossly exaggerate?

I think typically, people like mjkeat think they can wear you down, and you'll eventually quit, and he gets to feel like he wins because in that type of mind, last word wins.

Apparently, LA Sig doesn't give up so easily.

Rooster Rugburn
11-15-2012, 18:29
I think it's actually pretty hard to get a bad rifle these days. Just my 2 cents.

And as long as you stay out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and N Dallas, whatever you get will be all you need.

Matthew Courtney
11-15-2012, 19:38
Don't be posting crap like that again. :upeyes:

If you cannot take parody, do not read it. Just because the Bible was referenced in the parody does not mean that the Bible or Christians were the target. Only a small mind could take what I wrote as an attack on people of faith.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 20:38
Sig, if you're going to quote someone at least do it correctly. Goes to prove my point that you twist words in an attempt to prove yourself right. Kinda sad that you have to lie in order to do so.

I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720. Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait. Spikes has been known to underestimate their wait times.

I had a Spikes and it was nice. It didn't see as many rounds as the others however. I know they did shady things w/ price gouging and lying about the materials they were using though.

If showing that I can't make the leap in counting from 1 to 2 is your claim to fame you are a sad sad person. If being 1 item off in my count is gross exageration what is to be said about the "just as good" crowd you belong to?

I guess I could be the one that told someone to address what barrel to use on a lower, lol.

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 20:48
Sig, if you're going to quote someone at least do it correctly. Goes to prove my point that you twist words in an attempt to prove yourself right. Kinda sad that you have to lie in order to do so.



If showing that I can't make the leap in counting from 1 to 2 is your claim to fame you are a sad sad person. If being 1 item off in my count is gross exageration what is to be said about the "just as good" crowd you belong to?

I guess I could be the one that told someone to address what barrel to use on a lower, lol.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to appear relevant.

Warp
11-15-2012, 20:49
Your sig is misleading as a result of cutting the first quote short.

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 20:55
Your sig is misleading as a result of cutting the first quote short.

Signatures only allow 250 characters. The link to the exact quote can be accessed by the blue box with the chevron.

Warp
11-15-2012, 20:57
Signatures only allow 250 characters. The link to the exact quote can be accessed by the blue box with the chevron.

I didn't even realize the board had that functionality.

Nice.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 21:02
Whatever you have to tell yourself to appear relevant.

Exactly what I was thinking about you. At least I have my integrity intact unlike you. I have never had to twist ones words in order to make myself appear correct.

You give horrible advice. Recommending anything DPMS is setting people up for failure.

If relevance is in question I'm still head and shoulders above you. Even with your deceptive attempt to discredit me.

As far as your sig line you can see people see through your twisting of words and misquote. Thus I'm fine w/ it. It actually goes to show the type of person you are which strengthens the point I was making.

Warp
11-15-2012, 21:08
Your sig is misleading as a result of cutting the first quote short.

Signatures only allow 250 characters. The link to the exact quote can be accessed by the blue box with the chevron.

But yeah...the sig is still misleading

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 21:12
That was the base for his entire argument. Don't ruin his 15 minutes.

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 21:29
But yeah...the sig is still misleading

How so? Where is the proof that I lied?
"I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720." That was his words. My response to your post "The source you used to quote prices from showed an 8-12 month backorder. If distributors have them in stock and available, why not link to them and quote those prices?"
"Edit. I posted the link to prove mjkeat was wrong in saying all Spikes AR's were over $1000." In fact there were 2 that were not.
"Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait." Also his own words. There were 2 and not "right at" $900.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 21:33
How so? Where is the proof that I lied?
"I was just on Spike's site and all their rifles were over $1k. Priced higher than a 6920/6720." That was his words. My response to your post "The source you used to quote prices from showed an 8-12 month backorder. If distributors have them in stock and available, why not link to them and quote those prices?"
"Edit. I posted the link to prove mjkeat was wrong in saying all Spikes AR's were over $1000." In fact there were 2 that were not.
"Except for one that was right at $900 and it had a 8-12 month wait." Also his own words. There were 2 and not "right at" $900.

The first thing that comes to mind is someone grasping for every bit of traction they can as a huge gust of wind blows them away. LOL, this is getting quite entertaining.

Go on, go on, please continue.

Warp
11-15-2012, 21:34
How so? Where is the proof that I lied?


When did I say anything about lying?

I believe the sig is misleading. That's all I'm saying.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 21:39
When did I say anything about lying?

I believe the sig is misleading. That's all I'm saying.

He's twisting your words just like he did mine. There has to be some mental issues at play w/ him. He sees what he wants to in order to meet his agenda.

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 21:46
When did I say anything about lying?

I believe the sig is misleading. That's all I'm saying.

My point is, that mjkeat accused me of lying. I quoted exactly what he said. My response that he is claiming I lied, stretched the truth and twisted his words about was 100% correct and in context to your quote. He has no case. He has no proof I lied, twisted his words or stretched the truth.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 22:03
Very believable considering you're doing the same thing to Warp now. Seems like a pattern to me.

DJ Niner
11-15-2012, 23:53
Folks, I'm going to strongly suggest that you knock off the bickering and clear-out those sig lines, before the site owner or admin has to do it for you.

The "Ignore" function -- use it, embrace it, make the time spent here more enjoyable for everyone.