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Trew2Life
11-08-2012, 17:50
She said, 'No' and I don't blame her. She's 16 years old in H.S. and a Honor Roll student. She has no problem watching the other kids do it but refuses to do it herself.

Now I've gutted many a dead animal in my day and not just for school grades so I really don't have a problem with it, but she's my baby girl and I don't blame her for not wanting to gut a dead cat.

According to the ASPCA the school is supposed to offer an alternative. If they don't, I'm ready to go to bat for her.

Ruggles
11-08-2012, 17:52
I agree with you. My daughter LOVES her cats and would not want to do that. I am with you :)

skeeter7
11-08-2012, 17:54
I remember disecting a baby pig in high school. Not one of my fondest memories.

*ASH*
11-08-2012, 17:56
possum and a mini shovel ???

syntaxerrorsix
11-08-2012, 18:03
We did a frog and that was it. I think another school in our district did pig fetuses.

Trew2Life
11-08-2012, 18:16
What makes it even a little stranger is she's the only one in the class who objects. 20 kids. 9 girls/11 boys. I don't want her to be a wuss, but not everyone it cut out to be a butcher. I understand her.

Ruggles
11-08-2012, 18:20
What makes it even a little stranger is she's the only one in the class who objects. 20 kids. 9 girls/11 boys. I don't want her to be a wuss, but not everyone it cut out to be a butcher. I understand her.

Maybe she is just the first, other might follow suit.

Some knucklehead will be along shortly to tell you that you should make her do it :rofl:

TK-421
11-08-2012, 18:32
What makes it even a little stranger is she's the only one in the class who objects. 20 kids. 9 girls/11 boys. I don't want her to be a wuss, but not everyone it cut out to be a butcher. I understand her.

She's not a wuss, I'm a 22 year old male and I'd refuse to dissect a cat. But I'd also refuse to dissect anything. When I was in school, we had the option of either dissecting a frog or writing a paper about some topic that I can't remember. I didn't feel like writing a paper, so I let my partner do all the cutting. :rofl:

But fortunately all I had to do was a worm and a frog. Some classes had to do a shark, some did a pig, and the honors class had to do cats. If I was in the honors class, I would've flat out refused to do a cat, or even be in the room while they were dissecting them.

Your daughter isn't a wuss for not wanting to dissect a cat, it's not for everybody. I'm one of those people who isn't afraid to say I would do the same thing she did, but I'd also take it a step further and not be in the room while they're being dissected.

randrew379
11-08-2012, 18:33
Maybe she is just the first, other might follow suit.

Some knucklehead will be along shortly to tell you that you should make her do it :rofl:

No, but this knucklehead wonders why she signed up for the class.

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czsmithGT
11-08-2012, 18:35
The purpose of dissecting a cat in high school biology eludes me.

JW1178
11-08-2012, 18:37
I've never understood what is to be learned from diceting animals unless you are studying to be a vetanaerian surgon.

Gunhaver
11-08-2012, 18:38
It's pretty gross when you can't keep telling yourself how good it's going to taste afterwards. Plus it's a friggin cat so I understand the issue with it. ASPCA was good for something after all.

LL6
11-08-2012, 18:39
Jr year HS Bio class we dissected cats. I thought it was much more interesting than frogs. Freshman year at the U it was fetal pigs. Cats were still more interesting.

Ruggles
11-08-2012, 18:40
No, but this knucklehead wonders why she signed up for the class.

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I am sure because she is pretty darn smart and wants that class on her transcripts. If she is headed towards a medical degree then yeah she needs to go ahead and cut the kitty up. If she is not headed towards a medical degree but wants the class on her transcript then she should be able to pass on the kitty cutting.

AK_Stick
11-08-2012, 18:41
IMO, if its biology, she aught to fail that part of the subject, and move on.

Don't force anyone, if they don't want to do it, take the fail and drive on. Not really a big deal.

Jeff82
11-08-2012, 18:49
Life ain't always a bowl of Cheerios. Cut the cat already. Jeez.

JoeCitizen
11-08-2012, 18:50
Good lord. We really have become a nation of spineless wussies. We deserve what we get. Try to imagine a member of the generation that had the toughness to fight WWII getting all squeemish over a dead cat. We've lost what it means to be mentally tough. Heck, just 30 years ago we disected a frog, pig and cat and no one, including the girls, recoiled in horror. Learned a lot more about the cardio-vascular system than from colorful pretty little pictures in a text book.

frank4570
11-08-2012, 18:51
I kill and butcher a lot of animals. If it was my daughter, I would have the same point of view as you do. If she has to fail this one thing, so be it. You standing behind her in spite of the consequences will stay with her the rest of her life. Worth it's weight in gold.

Annhl8rX
11-08-2012, 18:52
If the class is required, they should come up with some sort of alternative. I bet there's some kind of computer simulation, or even an actual simulated cat that would work.

If the class is optional, they should make the dissection known before students sign up for it.

I don't get the objection, though. In high school A&P we did worms, clams, cats, and something else. I enjoyed it. Not because I'm a creep, but because it amazes me to see how things work...including living things.

danyo
11-08-2012, 18:52
I also agree. I had no problems cutting up frogs but I couldn't do it to a cat :/

Glocksanity
11-08-2012, 18:54
I am sure there is a dissection video she could watch in place of butchering the little kitty kat. Having her back on this is great.

railfancwb
11-08-2012, 18:54
I've butchered in the past, no longer wish to do so. Would NOT do a cat. My daughter is a veterinarian (small animal) whose preference is cats. I'm quite sure she dissected cats and dogs and others in the course of learning the profession. I'm also quite sure the dissecting she did enabled her to save many animals.

Helped her and her husband convert a number of bull calves into steer calves one time. I assure you, banding when they are small is better for all parties than cutting when they are large.


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glock_19guy1983
11-08-2012, 18:54
Life ain't always a bowl of Cheerios. Cut the cat already. Jeez.

I agree. The smell of the embalming fluid in the dead pig fetus I dissected in High school made me sick to my stomach, but I suffered through it. Tell her to put her big girl underwear on and start cutting.

Calico Jack
11-08-2012, 18:57
I dissected a cat as a Junior in high school in my A&P class and we kept those suckers around for (I think) close to a month. It was actually a very educational experience and I didn't find it overly disgusting. Now the smell... well just tell her to dab some vicks vapor rub under her nose and she will be alright.

deadmanglocking
11-08-2012, 18:58
I understand some people just aren't ok with cutting up animals and that's fine. I'm in EMT school and today we messed with fresh pig lungs and hearts. I'll agree you learn a lot more about gross anatomy with real organs vs pics but if she's not interested in a career in medicine then she should be able to pass on it.


The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.

TK-421
11-08-2012, 19:00
I agree. The smell of the embalming fluid in the dead pig fetus I dissected in High school made me sick to my stomach, but I suffered through it. Tell her to put her big girl underwear on and start cutting.

Ah, the good old fashioned Republican way of forcing your own beliefs on other people. If she doesn't want to, what harm is it to you? Why try to force someone to do something they don't want to do? It's not like someone will kill you if she doesn't cut the cat open, so leave her be and let her do what she wants, instead of trying to force her to do what you want.

MadMonkey
11-08-2012, 19:04
Good lord. We really have become a nation of spineless wussies. We deserve what we get. Try to imagine a member of the generation that had the toughness to fight WWII getting all squeemish over a dead cat. We've lost what it means to be mentally tough. Heck, just 30 years ago we disected a frog, pig and cat and no one, including the girls, recoiled in horror. Learned a lot more about the cardio-vascular system than from colorful pretty little pictures in a text book.

Knucklehead.

:supergrin:

Though I somewhat agree, I have to be truthful and say I've never gutted anything because as a kid I had a RIDICULOUSLY weak stomach. By the time I got it strengthened, I had quit hunting.

Guess I need to learn that skill soon.

JoeCitizen
11-08-2012, 19:08
Ah, the good old fashioned Republican way of forcing your own beliefs on other people. If she doesn't want to, what harm is it to you? Why try to force someone to do something they don't want to do? It's not like someone will kill you if she doesn't cut the cat open, so leave her be and let her do what she wants, instead of trying to force her to do what you want.


Good point. No value in teaching kids that in life there are times you have to suck it up and do things you don't want to do.

JoeCitizen
11-08-2012, 19:12
Knucklehead.

:supergrin:

Though I somewhat agree, I have to be truthful and say I've never gutted anything because as a kid I had a RIDICULOUSLY weak stomach. By the time I got it strengthened, I had quit hunting.

Guess I need to learn that skill soon.


I'm a knuclehead yet you agree with me in some ways. Please tell me you are drinking this evening.

Ruggles
11-08-2012, 19:16
See said knuckleheads have arrived just as I predicted. I am a freaking physic!

TK-421
11-08-2012, 19:17
Good point. No value in teaching kids that in life there are times you have to suck it up and do things you don't want to do.

Sometimes you do have to suck it up and do things you don't want to do, but that doesn't mean you should always do what you don't want to do. If you don't want to do something, and you have the option of not doing it, I'd consider it stupid to go ahead and do it, even though you don't want to. She doesn't want to cut a cat open, she has the option to not cut the cat open, it would be stupid for her to force herself to cut the cat open.

Sometimes you can't help it, other times you can, this is one of the times she doesn't have to do it, so why do it?

686Owner
11-08-2012, 19:22
They dissected pigs and cats in Anatomy. I didn't take the class because I didn't want to do it.

I was a part of dissecting 2 frogs, grasshopper, clam, starfish and worm. On the worm, I let my female partner do all the dissecting. She went on to become a neurosurgeon.

Gokyo
11-08-2012, 19:45
Not sure I understand the big deal. The cat is already dead. Maybe she could learn something from her experience.

Cats are cool. They are even more cool on the inside.

BEER
11-08-2012, 19:52
i love cats, i'm more of a cat person than a dog person to be perfectly honest.

with that said, i really don't understand the difference between dissecting a frog, a cat, a dog, or a human.

whatever is put in front of you you dissect it, note your findings, and then move on. it's not like you have to hunt, dissect, and then eat the animal afterwards.

MAC702
11-08-2012, 19:58
...The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.

Please attribute this to its author, Jeff Cooper, from The Art of the Rifle.

MAC702
11-08-2012, 20:02
Well, is this an elective class? Was the curriculum of dissection known as part of the class?

I'm all for choice.

But the choice may have been to take a college-prep biology class or not.

Or take the hit in the grade for not following-through.

You say they are supposed to provide alternatives. Well, what are the alternatives? Or who claimed thre were alternatives?

I'm playing devil's advocate, so go easy on me.

Mrs.Cicero
11-08-2012, 20:06
I, too, wonder why she signed up for a class that she isn't willing to do the work for.

I'm more concerned that she's letting squeamishness determine her course of action. That becomes a habitual reaction if you aren't careful. I'm a whole lot more comfortable dealing with other people's bloody injuries since I started butchering my own deer, and better understand how a body is put together. She's passing up a real learning opportunity on what grounds? That cats are too cute to cut, and death is something that can be safely ignored?

Mrs.Cicero
11-08-2012, 20:14
Sometimes you do have to suck it up and do things you don't want to do, but that doesn't mean you should always do what you don't want to do. If you don't want to do something, and you have the option of not doing it, I'd consider it stupid to go ahead and do it, even though you don't want to. She doesn't want to cut a cat open, she has the option to not cut the cat open, it would be stupid for her to force herself to cut the cat open.

Sometimes you can't help it, other times you can, this is one of the times she doesn't have to do it, so why do it?

Because that is shortsighted. There are consequences to this choice, as there are consequences to other choices. Just because you have the option to be lazy is not a good reason to be lazy. In this case, there are grade-in-the-class consequences, and there is the loss of an opportunity to learn, and there is the beginning or continuation or further engraining of a habit of letting squeamishness make your choice of action for you. None of these are beneficial to her. I cannot think of any benefit to refusing to dissect the cat. Maybe the rest of you can?

rednoved
11-08-2012, 20:16
When I was in high school, only students in the honors/AP classes were required to dissect a cat. If you are in those classes, you should participate. It is a learning experience, and part of the course curriculum. If she can watch and not cut, that's fine, but opting out completely would be a bad decision.

Is her class an advanced placement or honors class? If so, I really think you should encourage her to at least observe, and discuss that option with the teacher. Especially if she is planning on furthering her education in science. If she takes any college courses, she is likely to face a similar situation.

I can't say that I enjoyed the dissecting a cat, but I was glad I did it when all was said and done. There was one girl who refused to participate. She got a zero on the project. You shouldn't sign up for things you don't want to do. AP courses aren't required.

MadMonkey
11-08-2012, 20:19
Some knucklehead will be along shortly to tell you that you should make her do it :rofl:

Knucklehead.

:supergrin:


I'm a knuclehead yet you agree with me in some ways. Please tell me you are drinking this evening.

:faint: Guess it's too early for me to be funny.

GIockGuy24
11-08-2012, 20:25
When I was in high school, only students in the honors/AP classes were required to dissect a cat. If you are in those classes, you should participate. It is a learning experience, and part of the course curriculum. If she can watch and not cut, that's fine, but opting out completely would be a bad decision.

Is her class an advanced placement or honors class? If so, I really think you should encourage her to at least observe, and discuss that option with the teacher. Especially if she is planning on furthering her education in science. If she takes any college courses, she is likely to face a similar situation.

I can't say that I enjoyed the dissecting a cat, but I was glad I did it when all was said and done. There was one girl who refused to participate. She got a zero on the project. You shouldn't sign up for things you don't want to do. AP courses aren't required.

My high school had cats for Biology 2 but in Biology 1 there was only frogs. (Maybe large insects too.) 9th grade was in another school so Biology 1 was usually taken in 10th grade and was considered the easiest science class at high school. Only one, "advanced" science class was required so not a lot of people took Biology 2. If students wanted more science there was chemistry class and also physics class. The science classes offered in 9th grade were credit classes but didn't qualify as, "advanced science."

Trew2Life
11-08-2012, 20:30
This is what my 16 yr old baby girl just told me. She doesn't mind watching the other students dissect the cat. She wouldn't object to dissecting some other animal, frog, lizard, but not a cat. A cat is too personable. A cat is a family pet.

And with the most serious face I've ever seen she says, What's next ... aborted fetuses?

That's my baby girl.

Wyoming
11-08-2012, 20:35
When I was in High School we could not afford to buy frogs to dissect. We had to dissect a tadpole and then we had to share.:whistling:

Honest! It was a big tadpole and the older honor class did the dissecting and the Biology teacher then showed the later younger class the dissected tadpole.

It never occurred to us that we could dissect a cat.

MadMonkey
11-08-2012, 20:35
Sorry but that sounds like a PETA response. Dissect anything you want unless it's cute...

Maybe you should explain to her what other cultures think of cats. Some worship them, some eat them... they're just animals.

gjk5
11-08-2012, 20:41
Ah, the good old fashioned Republican way of forcing your own beliefs on other people. If she doesn't want to, what harm is it to you? Why try to force someone to do something they don't want to do? It's not like someone will kill you if she doesn't cut the cat open, so leave her be and let her do what she wants, instead of trying to force her to do what you want.

Yeah, you are absolutely right!

And she should get ZERO credit for the class.


Jesus freakin christ the pussification of this country is damn near complete.

Annoyedgrunt
11-08-2012, 20:53
I kill and butcher a lot of animals. If it was my daughter, I would have the same point of view as you do. If she has to fail this one thing, so be it. You standing behind her in spite of the consequences will stay with her the rest of her life. Worth it's weight in gold.

Ah, the good old fashioned Republican way of forcing your own beliefs on other people. If she doesn't want to, what harm is it to you? Why try to force someone to do something they don't want to do? It's not like someone will kill you if she doesn't cut the cat open, so leave her be and let her do what she wants, instead of trying to force her to do what you want.

The two best posts in this thread. It's a bit sad when respecting your kids' wishes and standing behind them gets equated to "the pussification of 'Merica!" and "The Greatest Generation would have done it, by God!"

But, being that this is GNG, I really don't expect anything less.

nikerret
11-08-2012, 21:02
I ended up beign the cutter in a lot of the dissections done in high school and college. For some reason, most of the other students couldn't get started, but after the first few cuts were made, they dug in and were able to learn a lot.

Is there a way she can partner up with someone who will take on the dirty work, but she won't miss out on the learning? There is nothing to simulate just how tough some bady parts are, you have to experience it.

I did have some reserve about cutting into the cow eyeball, that was a little much, but I still did it. Looking back, I'm glad I did. It makes me more aware of what my eyes are capable of withstanding.

certifiedfunds
11-08-2012, 21:05
She should fail. Time for the kid to learn to control her emotions and do the job at hand.

gjk5
11-08-2012, 21:12
The two best posts in this thread. It's a bit sad when respecting your kids' wishes and standing behind them gets equated to "the pussification of 'Merica!" and "The Greatest Generation would have done it, by God!"

But, being that this is GNG, I really don't expect anything less.

respect her wishes all he wants, but she doesn't get to change the class curriculum because she is squeamish. She drops the class and gets no credit or takes the fail for that assignment.

The pussification is not about dissecting the cat, it's about expecting special treatment and exceptions to rules. I am certainly not suggesting she be forced to do it, just that she can't refuse to do it and still get the same credit as the other students.

How freakin hard is that?

USMCsilver
11-08-2012, 21:20
...only if I get to shoot it, first.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

AK_Stick
11-08-2012, 21:32
This is what my 16 yr old baby girl just told me. She doesn't mind watching the other students dissect the cat. She wouldn't object to dissecting some other animal, frog, lizard, but not a cat. A cat is too personable. A cat is a family pet.

And with the most serious face I've ever seen she says, What's next ... aborted fetuses?

That's my baby girl.


Just because she has one, doesn't mean she needs to be one.


In need of a serious case of grow the frick up.

Annoyedgrunt
11-08-2012, 21:33
respect her wishes all he wants, but she doesn't get to change the class curriculum because she is squeamish. She drops the class and gets no credit or takes the fail for that assignment.

The pussification is not about dissecting the cat, it's about expecting special treatment and exceptions to rules. I am certainly not suggesting she be forced to do it, just that she can't refuse to do it and still get the same credit as the other students.

How freakin hard is that?

It doesn't sound like she wants to "change" anything about the class curriculum, per se-- she just doesn't want to cut open a cat. Like someone else said, it's not for everyone.

And I'd agree with the taking a zero for not doing it; but from what OP has said, she has the choice of the cat, or "an alternative" (whatever that is), so it might be a moot point altogether.

This thread basically boils down to parenting styles: there's the "tough love" crowd, and the "if you don't want to do it, you don't have to" crowd. I guess I fall into the latter-- I don't believe in pressuring kids into doing things they don't want to do. If my girl didn't want to play a sport, I wouldn't make her. If she didn't want to play an instrument, I wouldn't make her, and the same goes for a cat autopsy.

lunarspeak
11-08-2012, 21:40
she is sixteen,its ok to call her your baby girl but its time to stop looking at her as a child...she is prob less then 2 yrs away from serving her country.

im seeing both sides as a young adult she has the right to choose to dissect the cat but the school also has a right to choose to fail her.

now about makeing her do it...thats your choice,but the day may come where she may be put in a situation where she has to make a touch call like this again,and it may be a important one that saves her life.

me and my 11 yr old were talking about getting snowed in last year and what if we ran out of food,,i did mention that if we had no other choice we would kill the cats and the dog.
this upset him for like a second untill i asked him what was more important our lives or the animails.....

plus if i had to do something for a grade and some girl wiggled out of it id be pissed and give her heck ...just my 2 cents

Annoyedgrunt
11-08-2012, 21:41
IMO, if its biology, she aught to fail that part of the subject, and move on.

Don't force anyone, if they don't want to do it, take the fail and drive on. Not really a big deal.

Just because she has one, doesn't mean she needs to be one.

In need of a serious case of grow the frick up.

What the... So, which is it? Should she grow the frick up, or is it dont force anyone, and not a big deal? :dunno:

AK_Stick
11-08-2012, 23:24
I'm completely ok with failing her if she doesn't want to partake.


However that doesn't make her lame argument any stronger.

Folsom_Prison
11-08-2012, 23:37
We had to dissect pigs, I wouldn't of had a problem doing a cat or dog, it's just an animal. I've gutted deer in the past, I see no difference.

droidfire
11-08-2012, 23:38
Just call peta and give them something to do instead of making trouble elsewhere.

Everyone wins.

billn
11-09-2012, 00:00
We did frogs 50 years ago in school. I did not want to. Later I ended up majoring in Biology in college, then med school.

B. Somm
11-09-2012, 00:01
This is what my 16 yr old baby girl just told me. She doesn't mind watching the other students dissect the cat. She wouldn't object to dissecting some other animal, frog, lizard, but not a cat. A cat is too personable. A cat is a family pet.

And with the most serious face I've ever seen she says, What's next ... aborted fetuses?

That's my baby girl.

For those that have problems with reading comprehension, she isn't refusing because she is "squeemish", "pussified", "trying get out of" or trying to "change" the way the school does things. As someone mentioned earlier, dissecting animals larger than a frog isn't for everyone!

When I took HS biology, we dissected worms (I was the first in my class to find the teeny tiny worm brain) & frogs. If we had to take on a cat, I would have refused as well. I wouldn't have had a problem with a pig, some other animal or even a human, but like T2L's daughter, cats are more personal to me and I wouldn't have been able to handle it. If I would have been forced to do it, it would have done more damage to me mentally than just taking an 'F' for that part of the class.

Yes, there are situations in life where one has to 'suck it up' and get the job done, but there are also situations where you have to know your own limits & stand up for what you believe/feel.

This isn't a "do or die" scenario and yes, sometimes you have to do things that you aren't prepared to do and won't have a choice in the matter, but this is something that she does have a say in and is well aware of the consequences. It sounds like she's trying to find a compromise to meet both the school's class requirements, as well as her own personal limits of what she is capable of handling.

Knuckleheads indeed!

Count me as one who supports T2L's & his daughter!
B. :wavey:

The Maggy
11-09-2012, 00:13
The purpose of dissecting a cat in high school biology eludes me.
Because it's better than a worm or a frog. Large enough internals that a student can actually explore around and learn a few things about mammals.

I did a cat in high school and college. The college professor was a licensed vet. and she assured the class that the cats were never anyone's pet. 20-30min. into the dissection, I asked her why my cat was declawed; she looked a little sick :rofl:

In high school, I remember doing a cat, rabbit, worm, squid, turtle, cow eye, pig heart, and a frog.

TK-421
11-09-2012, 00:22
Because that is shortsighted. There are consequences to this choice, as there are consequences to other choices. Just because you have the option to be lazy is not a good reason to be lazy. In this case, there are grade-in-the-class consequences, and there is the loss of an opportunity to learn, and there is the beginning or continuation or further engraining of a habit of letting squeamishness make your choice of action for you. None of these are beneficial to her. I cannot think of any benefit to refusing to dissect the cat. Maybe the rest of you can?

No, it's not shortsighted, it's all about teaching kids the way they learn best, not teaching them the way you think they should be taught. Yes, there are consequences to all choices you make, however, this isn't a "Dissect the cat or fail the class" type of choice. This is a "dissect the cat or do something else" type of choice. So the consequence of not dissecting the cat would either be dropping the class or taking the alternate assignment. There is nothing lazy about wanting to do a different assignment if the choice is already presented. So I don't see why you seem to claim laziness in the first place. As to letting squeamishness make your choice for you, that isn't the case at all. That's like trying to say "No officer, I didn't kill that man, the bullet jumped out of my gun of it's own accord." If she makes the decision because she's squeamish, that's fine, but don't try to say squeamish took over the process and made the decision without her.

And really? You're going to claim that you know what's best for her? Have you even met her? Do you know what she likes or doesn't like? Do you know her exact reason as to why she doesn't want to dissect the cat? You're making nothing but bad assumptions on the belief that you know what is best for her, when you have absolutely no idea about what is actually best for her. It honestly doesn't surprise me that you can't think of a benefit, from the statements you've made I figured that much was obvious. The benefit would be that she might actually learn something. It would be like taking a person who learns by numbers and trying to force them to learn by spanish. It's apples and oranges. If she doesn't want to dissect a cat, I don't see why it's your life mission to force her to dissect a cat, or to try and claim she's not as good of a person as you are, if she doesn't want to. It's her choice, it's her life, she's the one who has to deal with the consequences, not you, so let her make her own decisions. Let her make her own mistakes.

I'm sure she'll ask for your help when she wants it, so quit trying to force your beliefs/thoughts/opinions on her when she didn't ask for them.

TK-421
11-09-2012, 00:24
And with the most serious face I've ever seen she says, What's next ... aborted fetuses?

That's my baby girl.

Well, you didn't think they just threw them in the trash, did you? :tongueout:

NeverMore1701
11-09-2012, 00:34
IMO, if its biology, she aught to fail that part of the subject, and move on.

Don't force anyone, if they don't want to do it, take the fail and drive on. Not really a big deal.

This.

jbailey8
11-09-2012, 00:38
Teacher- "Either dissect this cat or bring your father in here."

Student- "(clears throat) Excuse me ma'am, here's my father."

Teacher- "I'm so sorry sir, I never thought she would've made this choice.... Please lie back on the table. Ok, (student) either you dissect him or I will."

Father- ........

edporch
11-09-2012, 00:39
When I took Anatomy in college, each study group of 4 had a cat in the lab to dissect.

It had the blood removed with a red and blue latex like stuff in the arteries and veins respectively.

Nobody got upset over it.

On another note, each lab study group had to dissect a pig heart.

We showed up for lab and the instructor asked if any of us liked pig hearts to eat?

Seems the locker plant that sent the pig hearts over didn't realize they were for dissection, and had cut them up for eating...:rofl:

so we had to wait il the next lab to do the dissection with new pig hearts,

USAF96815
11-09-2012, 01:23
No, but this knucklehead wonders why she signed up for the class.

My thoughts as well.

When I went thru HS, we did a worm, frog, cat, and a pig. We damn sure knew at the start of the semester what we got ourselves into and the school/instructors had no sympathy for people crying once things started.

USAF96815
11-09-2012, 01:31
I'm completely ok with failing her if she doesn't want to partake.


Same here. Either do it or fail.

I go back to my first post. Did she not know what the class was about? Did she not read the syllabus for the class when she started and have the time to drop the class and go to another one?

I'm all for sticking up for your kids but if this was my kid, she'd either do it or take the failing grade and learn from it.

frizz
11-09-2012, 02:27
I've never understood what is to be learned from diceting animals unless you are studying to be a vetanaerian surgon.
If you contemplate the difference between education and training, it makes a little more sense.

matt_lowry123
11-09-2012, 07:50
I wonder how many people would flip out over a dog?

TheJ
11-09-2012, 08:06
I had a cat when I was her age and I did the same thing in high school. It would be one thing if it was her cat but its not. It's really not even gory at all. The experience truly is a terrific one for learning biology. Using human cadavers is actually much better but obviously not practical.

Coddling her on this will not help her grow or learn. If she truly can't do it then she probably needs to seek a behavioral health professional because the rest of her life may be very tough without help.

If you don't want to dissect cats or other animals that size then don't take advanced biology.

Mrs.Cicero
11-09-2012, 08:08
No, it's not shortsighted, it's all about teaching kids the way they learn best, not teaching them the way you think they should be taught. Yes, there are consequences to all choices you make, however, this isn't a "Dissect the cat or fail the class" type of choice. This is a "dissect the cat or do something else" type of choice. So the consequence of not dissecting the cat would either be dropping the class or taking the alternate assignment.

No alternate assignment has yet been offered. Obviously that would change the potential consequences. That is so basic it isn't even worth mentioning, which is why I didn't do so. I generally assume a certain level of logical ability on the part of my fellow GTers. My bad, apparently.

There is nothing lazy about wanting to do a different assignment if the choice is already presented.

She doesn't "want" to do a different assignment. She wants to avoid doing the dissection. She would simply choose a different assignment in order to avoid the one she doesn't want to do. It is FAR from the same thing.

So I don't see why you seem to claim laziness in the first place. As to letting squeamishness make your choice for you, that isn't the case at all. That's like trying to say "No officer, I didn't kill that man, the bullet jumped out of my gun of it's own accord." If she makes the decision because she's squeamish, that's fine, but don't try to say squeamish took over the process and made the decision without her.

Your analogy proves MY point. People say all the time,"The gun just went off, officer!" If you are going to tell me not to tell her what to do, then you shouldn't be telling me what do/not do. It's hypocritical.

And really? You're going to claim that you know what's best for her?
No, and I didn't.
Have you even met her?
No, and I likely never will.
Do you know what she likes or doesn't like?
No, and I frankly don't care. Her likes/dislikes aren't relevant to this situation.
Do you know her exact reason as to why she doesn't want to dissect the cat?
No, and since they weren't stated in the original post, I am forced to rely on a degree in education, experience teaching public high school students, and years more experience teaching homeschooled students to determine the most likely reason, as well as the most likely consequences.

You're making nothing but bad assumptions on the belief that you know what is best for her, when you have absolutely no idea about what is actually best for her.

Right back at you on the assumptions, sweetheart. Everything I said would apply to anyone in her situation. If you cannot see that, then I cannot help you.

It honestly doesn't surprise me that you can't think of a benefit, from the statements you've made I figured that much was obvious. The benefit would be that she might actually learn something.

Something? And what, precisely, would that be? If you are going to argue with me, you must actually HAVE an argument to make. Emotionally-based generalities and sheer drivel will not fly.

It would be like taking a person who learns by numbers and trying to force them to learn by spanish. It's apples and oranges. If she doesn't want to dissect a cat, I don't see why it's your life mission to force her to dissect a cat,

It isn't my life mission; please drop the hyperbole and insults. They are only distractions from any argument you are attempting to make.

or to try and claim she's not as good of a person as you are,

Once again, I didn't.

if she doesn't want to. It's her choice, it's her life, she's the one who has to deal with the consequences, not you, so let her make her own decisions. Let her make her own mistakes.

Dude, I have no opportunity to "make" her do anything, not any opportunity to "let" her. She's going to make her own successes and make own mistakes. If she reads my post, or her daddy tells her what all of us said, she'll be making her own decisions based on all the info available to her at the time. Do you really believe that I'd use my psychic powers to control the choices and behaviors of some high school student I've never met and never will?

I'm sure she'll ask for your help when she wants it, so quit trying to force your beliefs/thoughts/opinions on her when she didn't ask for them.

Sigh. The student didn't ask me anything. It was her father who wrote the original post. I wasn't addressing my answer to her, I was answering him. Had she asked me herself, I would have couched my response less bluntly, and I would have asked the questions about her motivations that only she can answer. I answered the question that was asked and I addressed my answer to the person who asked it, with the information the OP made available and my own life experience. I respectfully suggest you learn to do the same.

Are you even aware that you did in your post every single thing you accused me of doing? It's pretty funny.

gigab1te
11-09-2012, 08:09
When I was in high school, we disected frogs, a cat, and a cow's eye. It was very good preparation for A&P classes in college, where we disected cats and dogs, and an actual human cadaver. Part of a child's growing up is to learn to do things that they don't enjoy doing, but that are good for them. As a parent, you will do what is best, but in making that decision, please consider that the school may be in the right here.

Steel Head
11-09-2012, 08:46
Premature posticulation:whistling:

wrenrj1
11-09-2012, 08:50
According to the ASPCA the school is supposed to offer an alternative. If they don't, I'm ready to go to bat for her.

This is fine by me, however you may want to remind her that cats are not full of white fluffy stuff.

Steel Head
11-09-2012, 08:50
Maybe she is just the first, other might follow suit.

Some knucklehead will be along shortly to tell you that you should make her do it :rofl:

Not this knucklehead:wavey:
I'm over 40 and have cut open many various animals and looked many roadkill specimens but there are limits.
Cats and dogs are VERBOTEN!!
I'm not a horse person but cutting into a horse would be tough for me also-those big spooky eyes:wow:

I'd support her 110%:wavey:

Trew2Life
11-09-2012, 16:57
Thanks to everyone for their ops. I don't know how some of ya'll managed to fit politics into this. That was cute. :wow:

I was wondering if I was doing the right thing or not. I know now that it's best to stand behind her decision not to dissect a cat, if she doesn't want to. This seems to be important to her and I respect her decision; even if it means failing the AP class. We hope not. The dissection isn't until Monday and the school has not yet returned my inquiries about 'alternatives'.

Another side of me does want to tell her to woman-up; show no fear! So I feel the other side of the room, too.

Annoyedgrunt
11-09-2012, 18:17
Thanks to everyone for their ops. I don't know how some of ya'll managed to fit politics into this. That was cute. :wow:


Yeah, well... this is GNG. It ALL comes back to politics 'round these parts. I could start a thread right now about which kind of dishwasher detergent works best: the brand-name stuff, or the "other" kind. By about post 15, it will have devolved into "People that buy the store-brand stuff probably vote for Obama" and "Only lazy people use dishwashers, and all lazy people vote for Obama" and "If you buy it at Walmart you are supporting China and you hate America" and blahblahblah.

:rofl:

skeeter1959
11-09-2012, 18:22
As long as the cat is not alive......Just kidding.

ray9898
11-09-2012, 18:27
Strange.....why choose a common pet for the class?

hoven88
11-09-2012, 18:31
Strange.....why choose a common pet for the class?

They are used because there is a high ammount of cats put to death (strays), and they found a good use for the carcasses.

jbailey8
11-09-2012, 19:37
Strange.....why choose a common pet for the class?I dissected a pig in 9th grade biology and then a cat the next year in human anatomy.

certifiedfunds
11-09-2012, 19:42
Strange.....why choose a common pet for the class?

One man's pet is another man's specimen.

They're dead animals.

HollowHead
11-09-2012, 19:46
I remember the battles over sex ed in the sixties when I was in school because either some student or parent had their sensibilities offended. HH

C6vetter
11-09-2012, 19:59
She said, 'No' and I don't blame her. She's 16 years old in H.S. and a Honor Roll student. She has no problem watching the other kids do it but refuses to do it herself.

Now I've gutted many a dead animal in my day and not just for school grades so I really don't have a problem with it, but she's my baby girl and I don't blame her for not wanting to gut a dead cat.

According to the ASPCA the school is supposed to offer an alternative. If they don't, I'm ready to go to bat for her.

Ever eat Chinese takeout???

JDennis
11-09-2012, 20:29
I did it in my AP anatomy & physiology class 15 years ago. We dissected a cat. I am a huge animal lover and at the time we just put our family's 23 y/o cat to sleep. At first I didnt want to do it, but then logically thought about how And what I could learn from it. It was actually a very cool experience. Learned way more than the frog, shark, earthworm (like a 2ft one) and black widow we did in biology. Support her either way she wants to go, but definitely try to sway her to do it. My father taught micro bio in the classroom next to a&p. He said in the years they have been doing it only 2 students opted not to do it. The cats that were used were put to sleep for various health/old age reasons and donated by the former owners. Was actually kinda interesting to see the various health issues and why they were put down. Ours had two healed fractured legs and was put down due to arthritis and HD.

Dalton Wayne
11-09-2012, 20:56
They need anymore cats :whistling:

B. Somm
12-16-2012, 14:46
Update??!

So, did she dissect the critter or opt for something else?

B. :dunno:

certifiedfunds
12-16-2012, 15:04
Oh fuhcrisakes it's a dead preserved cat that reeks of formaldehyde, not a fluffy white one from a cat food commercial with blood oozing out.

I've had dogs all my life but would have no issue dissecting a canine in a laboratory setting.

We've become a nation of wusses.


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devildog2067
12-16-2012, 15:12
The purpose of dissecting a cat in high school biology eludes me.

... to learn about guts?

devildog2067
12-16-2012, 15:12
I've never understood what is to be learned from diceting animals unless you are studying to be a vetanaerian surgon.

Knowledge is good to have. We specialize far too much as it is. High school should be about learning some of everything.

devildog2067
12-16-2012, 15:15
Ah, the good old fashioned Republican way of forcing your own beliefs on other people. If she doesn't want to, what harm is it to you? Why try to force someone to do something they don't want to do?

That's the same line that kids use when they say they "don't want to learn math" because "they'll never use it."

We require a kid to learn certain things in order to graduate from high school. Basic biology is one of those things.

devildog2067
12-16-2012, 15:16
This is what my 16 yr old baby girl just told me.

Your 16 year old girl is nearly an adult, she's no longer a "baby" no matter what you wish to believe.

devildog2067
12-16-2012, 15:19
This seems to be important to her and I respect her decision; even if it means failing the AP class. We hope not.

I doubt it would cause her to fail the class entirely; at worst she'll get an F for this portion of the curriculum.

Gallium
12-16-2012, 15:33
I did it in my AP anatomy & physiology class 15 years ago. We dissected a cat. I am a huge animal lover and at the time we just put our family's 23 y/o cat to sleep. At first I didnt want to do it, but then logically thought about how And what I could learn from it. It was actually a very cool experience. Learned way more than the frog, shark, earthworm (like a 2ft one) and black widow we did in biology. Support her either way she wants to go, but definitely try to sway her to do it. My father taught micro bio in the classroom next to a&p. He said in the years they have been doing it only 2 students opted not to do it. The cats that were used were put to sleep for various health/old age reasons and donated by the former owners. Was actually kinda interesting to see the various health issues and why they were put down. Ours had two healed fractured legs and was put down due to arthritis and HD.


Worth repeating.

I wonder if his 16 yr old is planning on going into medicine. Will she have qualms observing or assisting on an autopsy, given that she has parents at home?

And yes, I know it's a stretch from a cat to a human, but we really need to teach our children how to be dispassionate about some things.

That said, it is your "child", and yours n her decision to make on what she does or does not do. :)

Kingarthurhk
12-16-2012, 16:30
This thread is more fun than you can sling a dead cat at.:tongueout:

Cali-Glock
12-16-2012, 16:33
That's what frogs and piglets are for!!!!

Not a cat!!!!!

DanaT
12-16-2012, 16:38
I was not the "biology" type in highschool. Didnt really like it. I liked chemistry, physics, etc. I knew I wasnt going to be a doctor, etc. I didnt need biology. Besides I didnt want to dissect things either.

Fast forward. I became an engineer and do medical devices. Then all of a sudden I had to "dissect".

Let me explain my first time "dissecting". I was told to get a bucket of heads out of the fridge. I thought it was a joke. I opened the 5 gallon bucket, and 3 heads were in it. Then I was told to grab one and put it on the table.

So, maybe start with the cat.

Calico Jack
12-16-2012, 16:51
I remember the battles over sex ed in the sixties when I was in school because either some student or parent had their sensibilities offended. HH

Sixties? My school was still battling over that in the mid 2000's.


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DamonC
12-16-2012, 17:15
No, it's not shortsighted, it's all about teaching kids the way they learn best, not teaching them the way you think they should be taught. Yes, there are consequences to all choices you make, however, this isn't a "Dissect the cat or fail the class" type of choice. This is a "dissect the cat or do something else" type of choice. So the consequence of not dissecting the cat would either be dropping the class or taking the alternate assignment. There is nothing lazy about wanting to do a different assignment if the choice is already presented. So I don't see why you seem to claim laziness in the first place. As to letting squeamishness make your choice for you, that isn't the case at all. That's like trying to say "No officer, I didn't kill that man, the bullet jumped out of my gun of it's own accord." If she makes the decision because she's squeamish, that's fine, but don't try to say squeamish took over the process and made the decision without her.

And really? You're going to claim that you know what's best for her? Have you even met her? Do you know what she likes or doesn't like? Do you know her exact reason as to why she doesn't want to dissect the cat? You're making nothing but bad assumptions on the belief that you know what is best for her, when you have absolutely no idea about what is actually best for her. It honestly doesn't surprise me that you can't think of a benefit, from the statements you've made I figured that much was obvious. The benefit would be that she might actually learn something. It would be like taking a person who learns by numbers and trying to force them to learn by spanish. It's apples and oranges. If she doesn't want to dissect a cat, I don't see why it's your life mission to force her to dissect a cat, or to try and claim she's not as good of a person as you are, if she doesn't want to. It's her choice, it's her life, she's the one who has to deal with the consequences, not you, so let her make her own decisions. Let her make her own mistakes.

I'm sure she'll ask for your help when she wants it, so quit trying to force your beliefs/thoughts/opinions on her when she didn't ask for them.

Lol. I hated essays and reading boring-ass Shakespeare in high school. I'd have happily traded cutting up dead cats all day long to get out of it.

There's a reason we don't let 16-year-olds choose the curriculum.

DaneA
12-16-2012, 17:17
The purpose of dissecting a cat in high school biology eludes me.

Population control

I've never understood what is to be learned from diceting animals unless you are studying to be a vetanaerian surgon.

Well they learn how to spell dissecting, veterinarian, and surgeon. :tongueout::tongueout:

certifiedfunds
12-16-2012, 17:29
The purpose of dissecting a cat in high school biology eludes me.

Same reason you can't become a mechanic by reading a book about mechanics.




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lunarspeak
12-16-2012, 18:16
im torn on this one ..its cool you got her back but is this about ethics or what???

and if she is protesting against dissecting cats now...will she be against your guns later????

you might be old anf bedridden one day and she decides that your guns need to go to the police dept for disposal

TactiCool
12-16-2012, 18:28
Same reason you can't become a mechanic by reading a book about mechanics.


I'd have to disagree with you there. I learned how to perform all the basic maintenance on my 1st car by using shop manuals and internet forums, including the computer diagnostics. I learned how to replace all suspension and brake parts as well as many of the engine and electrical components, among other things. I even learned how to disassemble (and reassemble properly) complicated, high pressure, direct injection diesel pumps from a shop manual.


Oh fuhcrisakes it's a dead preserved cat that reeks of formaldehyde, not a fluffy white one from a cat food commercial with blood oozing out.

I've had dogs all my life but would have no issue dissecting a canine in a laboratory setting.

We've become a nation of wusses.



Bottom line, her not wanting to dissect a cat because of ethical reasons, or any reason for that matter, has absolutely no bearing on her ability to perform academically, or otherwise. It doesn't make someone a "wuss" because they morally object to that. And it has nothing to do with the "decline" of American society. :upeyes:

When I was 16, I would have taken the alternate assignment and refused to dissect the cat as well(I had fun with the toads 'n the piggies though). And anyone calling me a wuss would have been promptly challenged to sparring session at the local mma gym.

shadow_dog
12-16-2012, 18:30
I was a Freshman in the '73-'74 school year. I went to school in a rural town north of Cincinnati. We had a population of around 10-12K in town. In Freshman biology class we dissected sponges, fetal pigs and cats. Each student was paired with another student for dissection study. I remember the pair next to me had a cat that was pregnant with a litter. The teacher told us that that was rare for class but did happen every now and then.

Thumpernator
12-16-2012, 19:20
Let me explain my first time "dissecting". I was told to get a bucket of heads out of the fridge. I thought it was a joke. I opened the 5 gallon bucket, and 3 heads were in it. Then I was told to grab one and put it on the table.


Time to go to the head of the class.

certifiedfunds
12-16-2012, 19:51
I'd have to disagree with you there. I learned how to perform all the basic maintenance on my 1st car by using shop manuals and internet forums, including the computer diagnostics. I learned how to replace all suspension and brake parts as well as many of the engine and electrical components, among other things. I even learned how to disassemble (and reassemble properly) complicated, high pressure, direct injection diesel pumps from a shop manual.



Bottom line, her not wanting to dissect a cat because of ethical reasons, or any reason for that matter, has absolutely no bearing on her ability to perform academically, or otherwise. It doesn't make someone a "wuss" because they morally object to that. And it has nothing to do with the "decline" of American society. :upeyes:

When I was 16, I would have taken the alternate assignment and refused to dissect the cat as well(I had fun with the toads 'n the piggies though). And anyone calling me a wuss would have been promptly challenged to sparring session at the local mma gym.

At some point you had to grab tools and turn them to learn it.

She isn't capable of performing academically. Dissecting the cat is part of the curriculum.

This is how science is taught. Didactic and practical. You can thoroughly learn anatomy without the practical. It's why medical students dissect humans and chemistry students mix up reagents.


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czsmithGT
12-16-2012, 20:18
At some point you had to grab tools and turn them to learn it.

She isn't capable of performing academically. Dissecting the cat is part of the curriculum.

This is how science is taught. Didactic and practical. You can thoroughly learn anatomy without the practical. It's why medical students dissect humans and chemistry students mix up reagents.


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Guess I missed the part where she is a medical student.

skinny99
12-16-2012, 20:38
Guess I missed the part where she is a medical student.
Did you miss the part where this is an AP class and as such 100% a voluntary class? A class that is privilege to be in. She does not have to take it to graduate. So if she is not willing to complete the work required she should not pass. She will still graduate on time. All choices have consequences. If you CHOOSE not to your job you will be fired. Unfortunately we have lost that sense of personal responsibility in America. And based upon OP/Dad's statements we now know why. Very sad. Setting future generations up for failure.

TK-421
12-16-2012, 20:47
Setting future generations up for failure.

Now that's funny. :rofl:

The ability to choose is what sets up future generations for failure? Allowing them to think for themselves, and allowing them to make their own decisions is setting them up for failure? Gee, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you wanted everybody to be "Yes, sir. No, sir." people who don't bother to question anything, and don't bother to think for themselves. Man, you must want a really boring, crappy future for your kids, I feel sorry for them.

skinny99
12-16-2012, 21:02
Now that's funny. :rofl:

The ability to choose is what sets up future generations for failure? Allowing them to think for themselves, and allowing them to make their own decisions is setting them up for failure? Gee, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you wanted everybody to be "Yes, sir. No, sir." people who don't bother to question anything, and don't bother to think for themselves. Man, you must want a really boring, crappy future for your kids, I feel sorry for them.

Her choice was made when she signed up for the class. It was voluntary and she received compensation for completing it, just like a job.

Do you think it would be ok to get hired for a job that they told you up front that you would have to complete 10 steps. So you take the job and when you get to step 7 you decide that you do not want to complete that step because you don't like it. What would you expect your employer to do. Change the step for you? Allow you to skip it, while your co-worker has to do it? That is exactly what is happening in this situation. The lesson plan is laid out years ahead of time, previous classes have had to do it to past, why should she be treated different?

I do not want my children to be robots. I want them to make decisions for themselves, however they will understand that there are repercussions for every decision they make, whether it be positive or negative.

What Americans are missing is the ability to adapt and overcome situations that are put in front of them. Instead we piss and moan and try and change the rules to suit ourselves.

No one forced this obviously intelligent young lady to take this class. It was her choice in order to receive FREE college credit. She just has to do the work. Even if she doesn't like it.
Just like the real world will be. I give her credit for wanting to get ahead, the AP program is hard and a lot of extra work. Now it is time to put up or shut up.

certifiedfunds
12-16-2012, 21:24
Guess I missed the part where she is a medical student.

CZ - the reason medical students dissect a human cadaver is because learning from a book is insufficient.

Again, all science is taught this way. The practical lab work is complementary to and every bit important as the lecture side of it.

Reading about cat anatomy isn't enough. It's an anatomy class. Dissection is required. Do it or don't but don't expect to get credit if you choose poorly.

Sometimes in life we have to do things we don't like. Sounds like its time for this girl to do just that.

HollowHead
12-16-2012, 21:33
Sixties? My school was still battling over that in the mid 2000's.


Where the hell did you go to school, Utah? :rofl: HH

czsmithGT
12-16-2012, 21:50
CZ - the reason medical students dissect a human cadaver is because learning from a book is insufficient.

Again, all science is taught this way. The practical lab work is complementary to and every bit important as the lecture side of it.

Reading about cat anatomy isn't enough. It's an anatomy class. Dissection is required. Do it or don't but don't expect to get credit if you choose poorly.

Sometimes in life we have to do things we don't like. Sounds like its time for this girl to do just that.

Like I said, she's not a medical student. Plenty of time to cut up cats if that is her career path, although it sounds unlikely. Or a cook in a Korean restaurant for that matter.

OP left the thread because he probably got sick of all the people who know nothing about his daughter criticizing her because she was willing to watch but didn't want to put knife to cat. Too bad because I was curious as to whether she got an alternate assignment, dropped out of the class, got an "F" on the assignment or what.

For what it is worth, I will guarantee you there a lot of vets and surgeons practicing today who never cut up more than a frog in HS. Maybe if they had been given the opportunity to do cats and pigs at 16 it would have made them better surgeons by the time they got out of med school and residency, I don't know. All I know is there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I actually do know something about science and how it is learned as I have developed manufacturing processes for chemicals and supervised the design, construction and operation of facilities to carry out those processes. I have no idea how I managed to do that while only cutting up frogs in HS. Maybe it was all the rabbits and squirrels I had to skin and cut up for mom to cook when I was 10?

certifiedfunds
12-16-2012, 22:40
Like I said, she's not a medical student. Plenty of time to cut up cats if that is her career path, although it sounds unlikely. Or a cook in a Korean restaurant for that matter.

OP left the thread because he probably got sick of all the people who know nothing about his daughter criticizing her because she was willing to watch but didn't want to put knife to cat. Too bad because I was curious as to whether she got an alternate assignment, dropped out of the class, got an "F" on the assignment or what.

For what it is worth, I will guarantee you there a lot of vets and surgeons practicing today who never cut up more than a frog in HS. Maybe if they had been given the opportunity to do cats and pigs at 16 it would have made them better surgeons by the time they got out of med school and residency, I don't know. All I know is there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I actually do know something about science and how it is learned as I have developed manufacturing processes for chemicals and supervised the design, construction and operation of facilities to carry out those processes. I have no idea how I managed to do that while only cutting up frogs in HS. Maybe it was all the rabbits and squirrels I had to skin and cut up for mom to cook when I was 10?

Then she shouldn't have taken the class if she isn't willing to do the work. It is as simple as that.

1. She registered the anatomy class.

2. Cat dissection is required in the class and an integral part of learning anatomy.

CZ - so you're a degreed engineer? If so, along the way you too were required to do lab work. Why?

You can do what you do with only a frog dissection because your job has nothing to do with learning anatomy. However, rest assured that the chemists employed at your plants have completed many hours of lab work during their education. Now ask yourself why.

czsmithGT
12-16-2012, 23:18
Then she shouldn't have taken the class if she isn't willing to do the work. It is as simple as that.

1. She registered the anatomy class.
The OP said alternatives to cutting on the cat were supposed to be made available per SPCA. Maybe not per the school I don't know. Maybe she simply didn't know she would have to cut up a cat when she signed up. Or maybe when it came time to do it she got squeamish

2. Cat dissection is required in the class and an integral part of learning anatomy.
I would still like to know whether she was offered an alternative or just kicked out of the class. Then we would know for sure how integral this particular component of the class (don't just watch, cut damn it!!) was to her learning what needed to be learned in this class

CZ - so you're a degreed engineer? If so, along the way you too were required to do lab work. Why?
I'm a chemist and an engineer and a manager. As I recall, the lab work I had to do in HS was pretty much confined to making chlorine gas and setting thermite afire and trying to extinguish it before it burned through the bench top. Not much else in HS chem lab was memorable. Certainly it never impacted my ability to do the work necessary in college to obtain the appropriate knowledge to become employed.

You can do what you do with only a frog dissection because your job has nothing to do with learning anatomy.

Sounds like this kid's cutting up a cat won't have much to do with her career path either. You seem to be fixated on how she can't possibly learn as much anatomy as her lab partner by watching instead of cutting. I don't think that is the way it works. But like I said, if they want to kick her out of class for not cutting, so be it- it's their school. I just find it odd and wonder what they actually ended up doing.

However, rest assured that the chemists employed at your plants have completed many hours of lab work during their education. Now ask yourself why. Um, to start learning our jobs? Just a guess. That's why we went to college. We went to HS to get into college, not to learn how to insert a knife into a cat- even the ones who became vets.

Nothing like beating a dead cat- or was that a horse (I never got past frogs in anatomy).

NEOH212
12-16-2012, 23:58
They should be dissecting liberals. At least then there would be a use for them. I'd be willing to bet the dissection would reveal there is no spine or brain. :whistling:

vart
12-17-2012, 00:00
Three pages and no one has uttered the phrase...

"There's more than one way to skin a cat..."

GNG is slipping...

czsmithGT
12-17-2012, 00:15
Three pages and no one has uttered the phrase...

"There's more than one way to skin a cat..."

GNG is slipping...

Never fear- it's in post 113 :)

czsmithGT
12-17-2012, 00:18
They should be dissecting liberals. At least then there would be a use for them. I'd be willing to bet the dissection would reveal there is no spine or brain. :whistling:

It has alresdy been proven that old liberals have no brain and young conservatives have no heart.

TSAX
12-17-2012, 00:37
Back in the day they offered students who couldnt handle the frog, cow brains, etc, other dissections alternatives for credit and went to the library for studying.





:50cal:

tantrix
12-17-2012, 00:57
She should fail. Time for the kid to learn to control her emotions and do the job at hand.


This. Cut or fail...pick one. Life is going to get a lot harder than dissecting a cat in high school.

jp3975
12-17-2012, 01:48
Some of you guys...

Seriously? Can you not fathom why a young girl might be opposed to dissecting a cat? How do they get the cats anyway? Do they kill them for the purpose of dissection? Either way, you should be able to see why a chick wouldnt want to, or even a guy.

Dissecting a cat isnt going to give you any special knowledge of anatomy. MOST people in a bio class have no need for such a thing whatsoever. The curriculum is more than sufficient to learn biology.

I can tell you for a fact, that dissecting animals didnt help me learn to embalm or even give me a sliver of insight. I'll bet it doesnt really help doctors either to any great degree.

NEOH212
12-17-2012, 03:39
Psycho Kitty! - YouTube

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Gallium
12-17-2012, 03:55
Some of you guys...

Seriously? Can you not fathom why a young girl might be opposed to dissecting a cat? How do they get the cats anyway? Do they kill them for the purpose of dissection? Either way, you should be able to see why a chick wouldnt want to, or even a guy.

Dissecting a cat isnt going to give you any special knowledge of anatomy. MOST people in a bio class have no need for such a thing whatsoever. The curriculum is more than sufficient to learn biology.

I can tell you for a fact, that dissecting animals didnt help me learn to embalm or even give me a sliver of insight. I'll bet it doesnt really help doctors either to any great degree.


Seriously? Can you not fathom why a young girl might be opposed to dissecting cat should NOT take an optional biology course? And should probably defer taking courses as these until she is emotionally mature enough to deal with things as these?

You cannot use your own personal experience to extrapolate for everyone else. I know A SLEW of people who say that dissecting animals and watching in on autopsies helped them to become better medical professionals and practitioners.

Furthermore, you cannot speak with any authority on what effect practical exercises have on making doctors better. It would only be a fool that would pit their pittance of learning experience (less than 60 years) against the collective knowledge, experience and training of literally THOUSANDS of doctor instructors and hundreds of thousands of hours of education, training and experience from these people over just the past 25 years.

Back at the high school level...you are wagering your lone experience against an even bigger statistical pool. Yes, it is entirely possible for *someone* to go thru school as a medical practitioner and never have a real need for looking at a live animal specimen, but it does not apply to the vast bunch of folks under a normal distribution curve.

Bren
12-17-2012, 06:07
She said, 'No' and I don't blame her. She's 16 years old in H.S. and a Honor Roll student. She has no problem watching the other kids do it but refuses to do it herself.

Now I've gutted many a dead animal in my day and not just for school grades so I really don't have a problem with it, but she's my baby girl and I don't blame her for not wanting to gut a dead cat.

According to the ASPCA the school is supposed to offer an alternative. If they don't, I'm ready to go to bat for her.

With some effort, you can maker her even weaker and less useful than the previous generation. Many parents do.

SGT HATRED
12-17-2012, 06:57
Didn't read all the posts, but I took anatomy and physiology in HS. We not only had to dissect the cat, but strip the bones and reassemble them as part of our final grade. First we tried boiling the crap out of it in my mothers spaghetti pot, when that didn't work we used a high grade drain cleaner. There were 3 girls and 2 guys in my lab group. Not only did we do the cat, we also dissected a cows heart, brain and eye. It was actually quite a fun class. Oh and there was no "w"ussies in the class refusing to do the dissections. It was common knowledge made available before picking the class as an elective...

Redheadhunter21
12-17-2012, 07:01
Well I'm against not doing it because it is part of the class and its actually the only true way to learn it. But every school around here will let you write an absurdly long paper on a bs topic, I think it had to be 15 pages long single spaced. Most students that wanted to opt out of it just found someone like me that was all for dissecting and watched there partner, some even joined.


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kensb2
12-17-2012, 07:09
I took Anatomy & Physiology as a senior in HS. I CHOOSE to take that class, as it was definitely NOT a requirement for graduation. We too, had to dissect a cat. We were paired up with another classmate for the duration of the lab. It lasted a long time, I'd say at least 4 weeks. At the end, we had a test on the anatomy of the cat (pin stuck in a part, had to name it). Every single person that was in the class, did the dissection. I don't think anyone even THOUGHT about trying to 'opt' out of it.

Like many others have said, if she didn't want to dissect the cat, then she shouldn't have taken the class. Period. If Dad doesn't have the spine to tell her that she needs to either do it, or take an F or zero for that portion of the class, then that is just a parental failure on his part.

I'm not sure why some people in here are having a difficult time grasping the concept of her having to do this as a requirement of the class. It's been explained through analogies by a number of people why she should do the dissection. I too, hope the OP will man up and come back to tell us the outcome.

SC Tiger
12-17-2012, 07:16
I am sure because she is pretty darn smart and wants that class on her transcripts. If she is headed towards a medical degree then yeah she needs to go ahead and cut the kitty up. If she is not headed towards a medical degree but wants the class on her transcript then she should be able to pass on the kitty cutting.

My understanding is that you have to cut up much worse stuff in medical school.

I cut up a worm and a frog in 7th grade and that was about it. I'm a cat person so that might bother me.

Now, we did have one kid that did a science project on cat fetuses at different stages, complete with authentic fetuses. That was a bit much.

Mrs.Cicero
12-17-2012, 07:20
They should be dissecting liberals. At least then there would be a use for them. I'd be willing to bet the dissection would reveal there is no spine or brain. :whistling:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

engineer151515
12-17-2012, 07:39
Thanks to everyone for their ops. I don't know how some of ya'll managed to fit politics into this. That was cute. :wow:

...........

I agree . . . You barely got past page 1 before the politics started flying... < sigh >

Anyway . . see if the alternate assignment is acceptable and move on with life.

Who knows. She might surprise you and become a doctor one day - a doctor that still objects to dissecting cats... :)

ggarciatx
12-17-2012, 10:05
My 14 year old daughters only ambition is to be a Veterinarian. About a year ago, we found one of the cats at my moms house deceased on the yard. No signs of trauma or cause of death. Natural causes maybe?. I went to dig a hole in the backyard to bury him and came back to find she had lifted him up and placed him on the hood of my brothers truck and was petting him. I freaked out because normally, little girls are squeamish about this kind of thing. She carried him to the hole in the backyard and placed him gently in and proceeded to put the dirt back. :shocked:
She has always been a go-getter and not squeamish about many things that gross out boys her age. She knows whats coming in her path to be a animal Dr., but she will make it. She is now in FFA and will learn more.
Back in H.S. over 25 years ago, you did not have a choice on what science class you got placed in. You disected what was placed in front of you. In our case it was worms, grasshoppers, clam, and frog.


While I agree that kids are more sheltered and not given the chance to grow by over-sealous parents, I also feel that they should have some control as to decisions they need to begin making at that age.

Gallium
12-17-2012, 10:13
...


While I agree that kids are more sheltered and not given the chance to grow by over-zealous parents, I also feel that they should have some control as to decisions they need to begin making at that age.

Seems to me she was already exercising that ability when she picked an optional Anatomy class. No? :)

Decisions also have consequences. Intended or not.

certifiedfunds
12-17-2012, 10:31
Hopefully the OP can protect his daughter from ever having to control her emotions and do anything she doesn't want to do, for the rest of her life.

glock_collector
12-17-2012, 14:38
One word....MEOOOOOOW!!!

B. Somm
12-20-2012, 04:16
TK, still waiting for an update on what your daughter ended up doing!

B. :)

Disintegr8or
12-20-2012, 05:24
The "*****"fication of America continues.

Rabbi
12-20-2012, 08:13
I dont understand how so many of you can claim to be "freedom" types but look at someone standing up for what they believe, against the system... as being a wussy and the real problem in America?

That makes no sense.

For an opinion, if it was an optional choice to take the class and a requirment for the class, she knew what she was getting into.

.264 magnum
12-20-2012, 08:14
With some effort, you can maker her even weaker and less useful than the previous generation. Many parents do.

Bravo...