Need help to avoid breaking the law [Archive] - Glock Talk

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crazyasian1
11-08-2012, 19:29
I obviously want to avoid breaking or circumventing the straw purchase law here (Virginia) so any help is appreciated.

Friend wants a gun. Friend is FORMER military not retired, so not entitled to shop at the Base Exchange. Also a current and legal gun owner.

I'm active duty military. Exchange has a Gen4 G19 currently for $520 OTD, going on sale next Friday.

Can I legally purchase this firearm for my friend or is that a straw purchase?

I'm assuming if I purchase this and accept money/gifts/services before or after it's considered a straw purchase.

However if I purchase the firearm and make it a BONA FIDE gift, accepting no money/gifts/services in return, its perfectly legal, right?

dhgeyer
11-08-2012, 19:38
You really should be asking this of a lawyer.

JDennis
11-08-2012, 19:54
All I have to say about it is no. Don't do it. No matter whether it is legal or not (no idea, need a lawyer for that) It is not worth the risk of making a mistake! You love your guns, imagine having them all gone. Besides have your friend search around. 520 for a gen 4 isnt hard to beat if you look around. Maybe a extra 20-30 for ffl fee. Way better than taking a chance.

crazyasian1
11-08-2012, 19:54
But we have so many GT lawyers here...

Ok probably... Not going to do it if it skirts the law, however with the wealth of real world experience available here I just wanted to gauge the consensus for my interpretation of the law.

ctious
11-08-2012, 19:55
Straw purchase only applies if the person you get it for by law is.not allowed to buy a gun.himself. if the person is allowed by law to buy themselves and u get it for them.it is not a illegal straw purchase

1108VA
11-08-2012, 19:57
First of all, as active military, you can get the gun for about $398. before taxes at one of the law enforcement supply stores in Va. Secondly, do not buy that gun for your buddy. I have heard of people being prosecuted for the exact situation you are describing. As a matter of fact, it was a deputy who bought the gun for his civilian friend. He ended up loosing his job and was also charged criminally with the straw purchase.

faawrenchbndr
11-08-2012, 19:58
Straw purchase only applies if the person you get it for by law is.not allowed to buy a gun.himself. if the person is allowed by law to buy themselves and u get it for them.it is not a illegal straw purchase

Correct,............

SiberianErik
11-08-2012, 20:01
I just went thru this for my FIL. I love him dearly and he likes his shotguns. He has about 100 firearms and always wanted a tacticool SG so I bought his a Benelli Super 90. It was a PITA for me to buy it and put it in his name w/o him finding out as it was a early X-Mas gift.

crazyasian1
11-08-2012, 20:01
First of all, as active military, you can get the gun for about $398. before taxes at one of the law enforcement supply stores in Va. Secondly, do not buy that gun for your buddy. I have heard of people being prosecuted for the exact situation you are describing. As a matter of fact, it was a deputy who bought the gun for his civilian friend. He ended up loosing his job and was also charged criminally with the straw purchase.

$398?!?!? Where?!? Is that the "blue label" program?

jbailey8
11-08-2012, 20:03
I spoke with a dealer at the Roanoke gun show and her said that he could give me military pricing for an M&P with my VA ID card. Maybe he could find a Glock dealer that could do the same?

kodiakpb
11-08-2012, 20:11
I spoke with a dealer at the Roanoke gun show and her said that he could give me military pricing for an M&P with my VA ID card. Maybe he could find a Glock dealer that could do the same?

Just so you know S&W has a similar program as Glock blue label. LE/MIL price for a FS M&P9 is $398 (std sights) or $455 with night sights. Then there's also the $50 mail in rebate on top of that which expires in DEC if I remember correctly.

As with Glock, not all LE dealers are created equal. Some charge more than true price. (ie $420 instead of $398).

Z71bill
11-08-2012, 20:33
Straw purchase only applies if the person you get it for by law is.not allowed to buy a gun.himself. if the person is allowed by law to buy themselves and u get it for them.it is not a illegal straw purchase

What part of the law gives you this standard?

To the best of my knowledge the law never says anything about an exception.

Can you provide a reference to the law where it says this would not be a straw purchase? Because on its face it is one. Unless it really is a gift. Then it is OK
:dunno:

Smokin45
11-08-2012, 20:35
$520 OTD is a sale price?!?! Military can get them around here for $100 less than that!

kodiakpb
11-08-2012, 20:43
All the PX/BX does is sell at retail without sales tax. You rarely find good deals.

SouthernBoyVA
11-08-2012, 20:53
As I understand the laws here in Virginia, if you purchase the gun with your own money, then sell it to him, it is a legal private sale. I did this once with my wife and it was perfectly legal. But to be certain, I suggest you to to opencarry.org and pose this question in the Virginia forum. You'll get an answer pretty quick.

The other option is to check with Quantico Arms in Woodbridge. They give good prices to military and police. They also have a store in Q-Town on the Quantico Marine base.

BTW, we live close to each other so PM me if you need any further help.

stolenphot0
11-08-2012, 20:54
Unless its a gift, then it's a straw purchase.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 166 - Section 15

excerpt

the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth.

SouthernBoyVA
11-08-2012, 21:00
Unless its a gift, then it's a straw purchase.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 166 - Section 15

excerpt

the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth.

You can purchase a firearm with your own funds then sell it to another party who may legally possess a firearm. That is a private sale. On the other hand, if the party gives you money to make the purchase and/or they may not legally possess a firearm, you would be committing a crime. Personally, I would be very reluctant to purchase a firearm with the intent of selling it to someone ion a prearranged agreement, even if everything was done above board.

How many firearms over the years have you sold in a private sale? I know I have sold a bunch of them and all were perfectly legal transactions.

stolenphot0
11-08-2012, 21:09
You can purchase a firearm with your own funds then sell it to another party who may legally possess a firearm. That is a private sale. On the other hand, if the party gives you money to make the purchase and/or they may not legally possess a firearm, you would be committing a crime. Personally, I would be very reluctant to purchase a firearm with the intent of selling it to someone ion a prearranged agreement, even if everything was done above board.

How many firearms over the years have you sold in a private sale? I know I have sold a bunch of them and all were perfectly legal transactions.

In this situation he wants to buy a gun for a friend so friend can get sale price at PX. This would be a straw purchase. This law is very grey, I'm not saying it's not but it's all about intent. He would be lying on form 4473 when he takes money from his friend for the purchase. Buying today and selling weeks later because you don't like it is different, because of your intent.

I know it's stupid, but it's the way its written.

rdstrain49
11-08-2012, 21:10
Straw purchase only applies if the person you get it for by law is.not allowed to buy a gun.himself. if the person is allowed by law to buy themselves and u get it for them.it is not a illegal straw purchase


If it's on the internet is must be true.

Call it what you will, it's still circumventing the regulation. Do what you think is right.

Bruce M
11-08-2012, 21:22
...

I'm assuming if I purchase this and accept money/gifts/services before or after it's considered a straw purchase.

However if I purchase the firearm and make it a BONA FIDE gift, accepting no money/gifts/services in return, its perfectly legal, right?


In the instructions for item 11.a on page 4 of the 4473 form examples of the actual buyer and gifts are discussed http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

kodiakpb
11-08-2012, 21:28
The other option is to check with Quantico Arms in Woodbridge. They give good prices to military and police. They also have a store in Q-Town on the Quantico Marine base.


Town Police Supply - Richmond

SouthernBoyVA
11-08-2012, 22:37
In this situation he wants to buy a gun for a friend so friend can get sale price at PX. This would be a straw purchase. This law is very grey, I'm not saying it's not but it's all about intent. He would be lying on form 4473 when he takes money from his friend for the purchase. Buying today and selling weeks later because you don't like it is different, because of your intent.

I know it's stupid, but it's the way its written.

Notice, I said making the purchase with your own money. If someone gives you money to make a purchase for them, then it is clearly going to be viewed as a straw purchase. Best to not touch this one because of how it could be taken by law enforcement.

WheelGunFan
11-08-2012, 23:22
Here is a good link with actual scenarios

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

Unless it will be transfered as a gift, it is a straw purchase.

Your buddy can not pay you back. But that does not stop him from giving you a nice Visa Gift Card for Xmas.

Louisville Glocker
11-08-2012, 23:46
Advice: let the guy buy his own gun. Wow. What a concept.

rkb58
11-09-2012, 06:28
1+ for all the guys at Town Gun in both Collinsville,Va. (my home store) and Richmond,Va. And yes, "Blue Lable" program is available to you, and yes you can be charged for performing a "Straw purchase"!

Arc Angel
11-09-2012, 07:41
Buy the gun for yourself and with your own money. Afterwards whomever you legally transfer that gun to is of no concern to the BATF. You'll have two sets of forms to complete - One set when you buy the pistol, and a second set when you sell it. All this is, is a legal transfer from one legitimate gun owner to another equally well-qualified applicant; and that is that. Ain't no straw purchase there.

No matter how, us, internet gun lawyers interpret the law for you, never accept money from someone in order to purchase a firearm for them - Never! Buy that gun with your own money, AND for yourself. Whatever legal transfer you decide to make at a later date is, then, your own business.

Z71bill
11-09-2012, 07:54
You can purchase a firearm with your own funds then sell it to another party who may legally possess a firearm. That is a private sale. On the other hand, if the party gives you money to make the purchase and/or they may not legally possess a firearm, you would be committing a crime. Personally, I would be very reluctant to purchase a firearm with the intent of selling it to someone ion a prearranged agreement, even if everything was done above board.

How many firearms over the years have you sold in a private sale? I know I have sold a bunch of them and all were perfectly legal transactions.

It comes down to what was your intent at the time of purchase.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE YOU GET THE CASH FOR THE PURCHASE.

If the reason you buy the gun - is because your friends wants it and you are buying it for him - it is a straw purchase - even if the sale to your friend is a year from your purchase.

If you (really) buy the gun for yourself - then 10 minutes later decide to sell it to your friend - it would be a legal sale.

In the real world we live in - the chance of an ATF problem would actually be greater in the second case.

It sure would look strange if you go in to a store and buy a gun - then sell it to your friend in the parking lot of the store 10 minutes later. But it would still be a legal sale.


If you buy a gun today for your friend - but then don't actually sell it to him for a year - the chance the ATF would ever even think it was a straw purchase would be close to ZERO. But it is still an illegal straw purchase.

The law is the law - what some are talking about is not what the law is - but what is the chance they will actually have a legal problem.


Same thing - buying a gun for someone that is actually legally able to buy it themselves - really small chance this would result in a legal problem. But it would still be an illegal straw purchase.

If you disagree I don't care - but if you want to disagree then show me where in the law it says you can buy a gun for someone else - IF you use your own money, or if they are legally able to buy the gun themselves anyway.

EDIT:

Just because two things - when looked at separately - appear to be legal - doesn't mean that the whole transaction was in fact legal.

The law will many times - COLLAPSE a string of actions and look at the SUBSTANCE of what happened - NOT JUST THE FORM the transaction took.

It is a common principle called "substance over form"

mfm9
11-09-2012, 07:55
Doesn't your Base Exchange have a policy against making purchases of any type on behalf of someone else? Not just guns, but any merchandise?

While the chances of getting caught are small, your exchange privileges could be at risk here.

All in all, it sounds like you are putting way too much at risk, just to save your friend $100 or so.

-Mike

MNBud
11-09-2012, 08:21
I believe as soon as you stated that you wanted to purchase a gun and it was going to be for a friend this will make it a straw purchase.If you had stated that you had bought a Glock 19 at the BX yesterday and it was a POS and threw brass back into your face, can I sell this to a friend, you would be perfectly fine, but I believe now, anything you do would by law be a straw purchase.

Shinytop
11-09-2012, 08:50
Doesn't your Base Exchange have a policy against making purchases of any type on behalf of someone else? Not just guns, but any merchandise?

While the chances of getting caught are small, your exchange privileges could be at risk here.

All in all, it sounds like you are putting way too much at risk, just to save your friend $100 or so.

-Mike
Not only his px privileges, it would probably reflect in his next fitness report, commanders do not like investigations of members of their command.

rednoved
11-09-2012, 10:20
Tricky.

SouthernBoyVA
11-09-2012, 12:18
Buy the gun for yourself and with your own money. Afterwards whomever you legally transfer that gun to is of no concern to the BATF. You'll have two sets of forms to complete - One set when you buy the pistol, and a second set when you sell it. All this is, is a legal transfer from one legitimate gun owner to another equally well-qualified applicant; and that is that. Ain't no straw purchase there.

No matter how, us, internet gun lawyers interpret the law for you, never accept money from someone in order to purchase a firearm for them - Never! Buy that gun with your own money, AND for yourself. Whatever legal transfer you decide to make at a later date is, then, your own business.

Not required in Virginia. You do not need to do any paper work in a private sale, though I always do this for my own protection.

SouthernBoyVA
11-09-2012, 12:23
It comes down to what was your intent at the time of purchase.

IT DOES NOT MATTETR WHERE YOU GET THE CASH FOR THE PURCHASE.

If the reason you buy the gun - is because your friends wants it and you are buying it for him - it is a straw purchase - even if the sale to your friend is a year from your purchase.

If you (really) buy the gun for yourself - then 10 minutes later decide to sell it to your friend - it would be a legal sale.

In the real world we live in - the chance of an ATF problem would actually be greater in the second case.

It sure would look strange if you go in to a store and buy a gun - then sell it to your friend in the parking lot of the store 10 minutes later. But it would still be a legal sale.


If you buy a gun today for your friend - but then don't actually sell it to him for a year - the chance the ATF would ever even think it was a straw purchase would be close to ZERO. But it is still an illegal straw purchase.

The law is the law - what some are talking about is not what the law is - but what is the chance they will actually have a legal problem.


Same thing - buying a gun for someone that is actually legally able to buy it themselves - really small chance this would result in a legal problem. But it would still be an illegal straw purchase.

If you disagree I don't care - but if you want to disagree then show me where in the law it says you can buy a gun for someone else - IF you use your own money, or if they are legally able to buy the gun themselves anyway.

EDIT:

Just because two things - when looked at separately - appear to be legal - doesn't mean that the whole transaction was in fact legal.

The law will many times - COLLAPSE a string of actions and look at the SUBSTANCE of what happened - NOT JUST THE FORM the transaction took.

It is a common principle called "substance over form"

Yes, intent is the major factor here and as we all know, proving intent can be a tenuous thing. I think most of us are on the same page with this one. We're just using different prose in our postings.

Jon_R
11-09-2012, 12:27
I just went thru this for my FIL. I love him dearly and he likes his shotguns. He has about 100 firearms and always wanted a tacticool SG so I bought his a Benelli Super 90. It was a PITA for me to buy it and put it in his name w/o him finding out as it was a early X-Mas gift.

In FL?? :dunno:

What does "in his name" mean?

I have bought guns as Gifts many time but I was not trying to do anything other than give someone a gun as a gift. Not trying to get around anything.

crazyasian1
11-09-2012, 12:50
OK, let me put this thread to rest by saying, It's not happening. I asked for advice to avoid breaking the law and in true GT form I got it in spades. Thank you all for your time, advice and opinions, it's just not worth it.

Smithers
11-13-2012, 16:08
Straw purchase only applies if the person you get it for by law is.not allowed to buy a gun.himself. if the person is allowed by law to buy themselves and u get it for them.it is not a illegal straw purchase

You really need to add -
"In my opinion"

That's all it's worth.

Arc Angel
11-13-2012, 17:04
Not required in Virginia. You do not need to do any paper work in a private sale, though I always do this for my own protection.

Did you say, 'No paperwork in a private sale' meaning FOR A PISTOL?

Whatever long arms I've sold in the past 20 years I wrote out a formal bill of sale and record of transfer on. Wasn't going to get caught in that one!

ctious
11-13-2012, 17:30
You really need to add -
"In my opinion"

That's all it's worth.

Well let's see. I worked in a gun shop for 6 years. We have signs posted everywhere about this. It's states very clearly on those signs from the gov that it is illegal to purchase a gun for someone that can not purchass it themselves. No where does it say its illegal to buy a gun for someone else that can legally have one. The amount of parents that buy guns for their kids and don't put that on the form. Prime example. Fact is that in order to break the law u have to violate it. In a court they would never be able to make it stick as long as the guy getting the gun.is a legal gun owner. People have the right and freedom to buy things and do with them what they wish.

Police305
11-13-2012, 19:03
Ask a police officer, lawyer, etc. Or you can just let your buddy buy his own gun just to be safe!

davsco
11-13-2012, 20:22
well if you want to dot your I's, buy the gun. find a ffl who will help you xfer the gun to your buddy after the ffl does a background check on your buddy. sure the ffl will charge some sort of fee so it may not be economically viable.

Trapped_in_Kali
11-13-2012, 23:03
Even if it's legal (and I have no idea if it is or not) do you want to pay a lawyer to fight the case when/if you are charged?

cowboy1964
11-13-2012, 23:30
Straw purchase only applies if the person you get it for by law is.not allowed to buy a gun.himself. if the person is allowed by law to buy themselves and u get it for them.it is not a illegal straw purchase

Only if it is a gift. Might be hard to prove it's not but the fact is if you *know* it's not a gift and you're simply purchasing it for someone else (legal or not) you're falsely filling out form 4473. Good luck with that.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

ithaca_deerslayer
11-14-2012, 06:50
Yes, intent is the major factor here and as we all know, proving intent can be a tenuous thing. I think most of us are on the same page with this one. We're just using different prose in our postings.

I'm no lawyer, but I'd be concerned with

-- the whole story, including intent, being posted on the internet

-- the difference in price between OP buying it and the friend buying it provides a motive

-- aside from straw purchase concerns, fraud to get the better price might be another area of interest

-- the friend might tell his other buddies how he got such a great deal

-- sometimes friends don't actually tell us if they've actually got some legal problems

SouthernBoyVA
11-14-2012, 07:29
Did you say, 'No paperwork in a private sale' meaning FOR A PISTOL?

Whatever long arms I've sold in the past 20 years I wrote out a formal bill of sale and record of transfer on. Wasn't going to get caught in that one!

You are not required to do any paper work when selling a firearm in a private sale. The only requirement is that the firearm must be legally owned and the buyer must be legally able to purchase it. Now as to doing paperwork, yes this always a good idea regardless of the type of firearm it is you're selling for the simple fact of your own protection.

SouthernBoyVA
11-14-2012, 07:33
I'm no lawyer, but I'd concerned with

-- the whole story, including intent, being posted on the internet

-- the difference in price between OP buying it and the friend buying it provides a motive

-- aside from straw purchase concerns, fraud to get the better price might be another area of interest

-- the friend might tell his other buddies how he got such a great deal

-- sometimes friends don't actually tell us if they've actually got some legal problems

My own opinion is that I would not purchase a firearm for someone else who could legally purchase it should they wish. Of course an illegal purchase is out of the question for me. I would avoid that and any such impropriety regarding that like the plague.

GThirtyTwo
11-14-2012, 13:17
I am ignorant of VA law, but correct me if I am wrong here. If you were to purchase it for yourself (not a straw purchase), decide you didn't like it and turn around and sell it to your friend that would be legal. What's the difference?

kashdaddy
11-14-2012, 13:53
How much are you saving again? I dont think that few extra bucks is worth the risk. Let him buy it at the cheapest place in his name, its much safer. if it ever gets lost/stolen then he can file a report, if its ever used in a defense situation then less comes into question.