Man with gun in Walmart arrested for refusing to show permit [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TBO
11-09-2012, 12:45
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2012/10/25/man-with-gun-in-walmart-arrested-for-refusing-to-show-permit/article?nclick_check=1

badge315
11-09-2012, 12:54
The one natural resource we seem to have an endless supply of is stupid people. :upeyes:

Sam Spade
11-09-2012, 12:59
The one natural resource we seem to have an endless supply of is stupid people. :upeyes:

If there were only some way to harness that resource at the national level.....just think of what we could do!


Oh, that's right. :cool:

JW1178
11-09-2012, 13:18
Did the LEO prove he was in fact a LEO or just walmart security?

Still, once again, we have yet another activist standing his ground asking for trouble, and he got trouble.

TBO
11-09-2012, 13:20
Did the LEO prove he was in fact a LEO or just walmart security?

Still, once again, we have yet another activist standing his ground asking for trouble, and he got trouble.

I think putting him in jail might have proven it.

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Bruce M
11-09-2012, 13:26
Did the LEO prove he was in fact a LEO or just walmart security?

...
I am guesing that somewhere between the walk outside away from Walmart, the ride however far it was, and then the walk into the Polk County Jail Mr. Alivonta had a clue or should have had a clue that he had successfully advanced from Walmart security to the local constabulary.

Tongo
11-09-2012, 13:27
Did the LEO prove he was in fact a LEO or just walmart security?

Still, once again, we have yet another activist standing his ground asking for trouble, and he got trouble.

"Alivonta had a permit to purchase firearms and one to carry a gun but repeatedly refused to show them to Butler, who was working security in uniform at the store."

I'd take it to mean he WAS wearing his LEO uniform and as such, it should have been fairly obvious to most individuals that he was in fact a LEO.

cowboywannabe
11-09-2012, 13:27
If there were only some way to harness that resource at the national level.....just think of what we could do!


Oh, that's right. :cool:

the democrats have successfully harnessed the power of the stupid. does that count?

IndyGunFreak
11-09-2012, 13:33
If there were only some way to harness that resource at the national level.....just think of what we could do!


Oh, that's right. :cool:

:rofl:

Well done

TK-421
11-09-2012, 13:33
"Alivonta had a permit to purchase firearms and one to carry a gun but repeatedly refused to show them to Butler, who was working security in uniform at the store."

I'd take it to mean he WAS wearing his LEO uniform and as such, it should have been fairly obvious to most individuals that he was in fact a LEO.

It doesn't specify which uniform he was wearing. Was he wearing a Walmart Security Guard uniform, or a Police Officer uniform? My guess would be a Walmart Security Guard Uniform, because if I saw a guy wearing that uniform, and he didn't announce himself as an off duty cop, I'd tell him to buzz off when he asked to see my permit. But if the cop was wearing his police uniform, then the guy shouldn't be allowed to carry his gun for being so stupid. If a cop in uniform asked to see my permit, I'd show it to him, required by law or not, because I'd consider it polite, presuming I was required to have a permit to open carry.

However, this is exactly the kind of reason why I prefer concealed carry. Because when done properly, the cop would have had 0 idea the guy was armed, and he wouldn't be in his current predicament.

IndyGunFreak
11-09-2012, 13:39
By the way, dude was a Class A idiot.

I'm sure some of the more radical gun forums are already talking about how the police violated his rights and have started a legal defense fund.

cowboy1964
11-09-2012, 13:39
You need a permit to purchase firearms in Iowa??

cowboy1964
11-09-2012, 13:41
It doesn't specify which uniform he was wearing. Was he wearing a Walmart Security Guard uniform, or a Police Officer uniform? My guess would be a Walmart Security Guard Uniform.

My guess would be his duty uniform. Around here off-duty cops working private security always wear their duty uniforms.

Sam Spade
11-09-2012, 13:47
My guess would be his duty uniform. Around here off-duty cops working private security always wear their duty uniforms.

It's unheard of here for a sworn officer to put on a square badge to work security. There is absolutely zero upside for either the cop or the extra-duty employer. Let me emphasize that: Absolutely zero. There are a series of downsides for the cop, the employer and the department.

It's just not done.

Tongo
11-09-2012, 13:53
It doesn't specify which uniform he was wearing. Was he wearing a Walmart Security Guard uniform, or a Police Officer uniform? My guess would be a Walmart Security Guard Uniform, because if I saw a guy wearing that uniform, and he didn't announce himself as an off duty cop, I'd tell him to buzz off when he asked to see my permit. But if the cop was wearing his police uniform, then the guy shouldn't be allowed to carry his gun for being so stupid. If a cop in uniform asked to see my permit, I'd show it to him, required by law or not, because I'd consider it polite, presuming I was required to have a permit to open carry.

However, this is exactly the kind of reason why I prefer concealed carry. Because when done properly, the cop would have had 0 idea the guy was armed, and he wouldn't be in his current predicament.

As we don't have security guards at our WalMart, I didn't realize the have their own...though I should have thought of that.

JohnBT
11-09-2012, 14:08
I didn't know Walmart issued security uniforms. I've never seen one here.

I searched google images and didn't see any. :dunno:

John

BamaBud
11-09-2012, 14:09
This is in Iowa, who just went for Obama. Figures.

TK-421
11-09-2012, 14:23
As we don't have security guards at our WalMart, I didn't realize the have their own...though I should have thought of that.

I didn't know Walmart issued security uniforms. I've never seen one here.

I searched google images and didn't see any. :dunno:

John

Generally, from what I've seen, Walmart doesn't have "Walmart" branded security, they'll contract that out. Securitas is what I see a lot. I've seen a few security guards wandering around my walmart, but it's not an everyday occurrence.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 14:25
You need a permit to purchase firearms in Iowa??

To purchase handguns only or you need a permit to carry. Long guns need no special permits.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 14:28
This is in Iowa, who just went for Obama. Figures.

God knows that no other state has open carry idiots looking for attention.

We also let gays from Alabama come up here and get married. Tell your friends.

Chuck TX
11-09-2012, 14:39
To purchase handguns only or you need a permit to carry. Long guns need no special permits.

How...progressive.

hamster
11-09-2012, 14:42
It's unheard of here for a sworn officer to put on a square badge to work security. There is absolutely zero upside for either the cop or the extra-duty employer. Let me emphasize that: Absolutely zero. There are a series of downsides for the cop, the employer and the department.

It's just not done.

Agreed. I would hope any officer would be wearing their department uniform. I place orders of magnitude more trust in police officers than some strange "store security" guys.

I don't know the law where this guy was, but I don't see a problem with showing ID when asked and given a valid reason. Unfortunately the sheeple fear armed citizens, but the officer was simply doing his job here.

pipedreams
11-09-2012, 14:46
According to the article he was outside carrying which is rather dumb to start with but does not require a CC permit. I'm suspect of the article since it says he had a permit to carry as well as a permit to purchase a handgun. It seems rather dumb to go to the sheriff's office pay and wait to get a permit to purchase a handgun if you already have a CC permit. If you do not have a CC in Iowa you have to apply for a permit to purchase a handgun which is good for a year. I suspect the author may be a bit behind on what the law is.

The first comment is rather interesting.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 14:47
How...progressive.

Yep. It's also freezing cold in the winter and broiling hot in the summer.

TK-421
11-09-2012, 14:49
How...progressive.

At least they get to open carry. :tongueout:

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 14:50
At least they get to open carry. :tongueout:

There is that. Can you do that in TX?

pipedreams
11-09-2012, 14:56
God knows that no other state has open carry idiots looking for attention.

We also let gays from Alabama come up here and get married. Tell your friends.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

certifiedfunds
11-09-2012, 14:59
How...progressive.

Sweet isn't it?

certifiedfunds
11-09-2012, 15:00
There is that. Can you do that in TX?

No. Texans have to get government permission to carry.

Don't Mess With Texas

Patchman
11-09-2012, 15:05
The guy went to jail. He should also lose his job.

noway
11-09-2012, 15:14
Whatever we do, we need to follow the letter of the law

Here's the statute of IOWA law and yes you need a permit for open or conceal carry


i. A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person's trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person's conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense.

noway
11-09-2012, 15:15
The guy went to jail. He should also lose his job.

Why is that so? Please advise.

pipedreams
11-09-2012, 15:17
The guy went to jail. He should also lose his job.


Why? He may of acted dumb but why his job.

"Iowa law specifically provides that a person carrying a weapon must show his permit when asked by a peace officer. Note also that the charge will probably be dismissed if he produces the permit at trial."


"Section 724.4(3)(i) provides "A person who has in the personís possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the personís trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the personís conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense."

GIockGuy24
11-09-2012, 15:26
Why? He may of acted dumb but why his job.

"Iowa law specifically provides that a person carrying a weapon must show his permit when asked by a peace officer. Note also that the charge will probably be dismissed if he produces the permit at trial."


"Section 724.4(3)(i) provides "A person who has in the personís possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the personís trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the personís conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense."

The difference may be his conduct though. The difference between "refusing" to show the permit and just not having it.

Once I was way out in the middle nowhere, with nothing around for miles. The biggest business in the whole county seemed to be a Super Walmart that was open 24 hours. I stopped there because there wasn't anything else around. I went inside and they had county police officers in uniform working security there.

TK-421
11-09-2012, 15:28
There is that. Can you do that in TX?

No. The one state you'd figure would be the most pro-gun in the entire country, and you can't open carry. Oh, and don't even think about printing, or accidentally exposing your gun, like if your shirt lifts up. Both will get you in serious trouble, and is equivalent to open carry, from what I gather. At least in florida you're allowed to print, and if your shirt lifts up and exposes your gun, like if you're reaching to the top shelf for something, nobody cares. The problem is that the legislature meets every two years, and only for 140 days, and they're so busy with the budget and other ****, that they don't have time to discuss open carry. It was on the table last session, but they didn't do anything with it. Hopefully this session they'll allow it.

rednoved
11-09-2012, 15:34
Idiot.

pipedreams
11-09-2012, 15:50
Here's the statute of IOWA law and yes you need a permit for open or conceal carry

Section 724.4(3)(i) of the Iowa code only applies to conceal carry and has nothing to do with open carry. You can open carry without a conceal carry permit and always could but you have to be careful you don't run afoul a local municipal ordnance. I would say it is unwise to open carry unless you are hunting or on your own private property.

brboyer
11-09-2012, 15:56
I was not there so do not know the whole story, but I have to question the legality for demand of the license/permit.

There is quite a bit of case law on this subject, but LEO that work 'security' gigs are operating under the authority of the property owner, not the government, until such time as he/she has RS of a crime being committed.

Just because he was a LEO in uniform, does not necessarily mean that he was in the lawful performance of his duties at the time he requested/demanded the license/permit, nor does it mean that the encounter was a lawful detention/seizure of his person under the 4th Amendment.

Not sure how IOWA case law stands on open carry as RS of a crime.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 16:07
No. The one state you'd figure would be the most pro-gun in the entire country, and you can't open carry...

Does it take anything besides a 4473 to buy a pistol from a dealer? Can you just walk in, lay down cash and walk away with one? Background checks, etc?

TK-421
11-09-2012, 16:20
Does it take anything besides a 4473 to buy a pistol from a dealer? Can you just walk in, lay down cash and walk away with one? Background checks, etc?

All it takes is money and a background check. A background check usually takes 15 minutes, unless it's delayed. You fill out the paper work, they call it in, if you're good to go, you walk out with the firearm. If you're delayed, they have three days to say no, otherwise you can go and pick it up after three days.

When I bought my 23, I walked in, I was delayed, probably because it was the first time I bought a firearm, and they told me three days. They ended up calling me the next day, I went and picked it up and drove home with my new gun five minutes after walking into the store the next day.

The nice thing is that they don't have to do a background check if you have a CHL. You just walk in, fill out the paper work, hand over your cash and your CHL, and you walk out with your gun a few minutes later.

Of course, that's presuming the guys at the gun store gave me correct information, but I'm pretty sure they did, since they do this for a living.

tantrix
11-09-2012, 16:24
If state law says you must show your permit to LE, then you must do it. However, since he was open-carrying I don't see why this was even an issue. Here, it would have simply been some form of picture ID and he would have gone on his way unless the store manager insisted he leave the premises.

oldman11
11-09-2012, 16:26
What I don't understand is why the hesitancy to show the CHL when asked, even if it's just Walmarts own security. It only takes a second and then everyone is happy.

tantrix
11-09-2012, 16:29
What I don't understand is why the hesitancy to show the CHL when asked, even if it's just Walmarts own security. It only takes a second and then everyone is happy.

Because he was open carrying...if open carry is legal there without a permit, there is no reason to even ask for such a thing.

Chuck TX
11-09-2012, 16:31
At least they get to open carry. :tongueout:

Apparently it doesn't go so well all the time. :supergrin:

No. Texans have to get government permission to carry.

Don't Mess With Texas

What's littering got to do with it? :rofl:

txleapd
11-09-2012, 16:35
It doesn't specify which uniform he was wearing. Was he wearing a Walmart Security Guard uniform, or a Police Officer uniform? My guess would be a Walmart Security Guard Uniform, because if I saw a guy wearing that uniform, and he didn't announce himself as an off duty cop, I'd tell him to buzz off when he asked to see my permit. But if the cop was wearing his police uniform, then the guy shouldn't be allowed to carry his gun for being so stupid. If a cop in uniform asked to see my permit, I'd show it to him, required by law or not, because I'd consider it polite, presuming I was required to have a permit to open carry.

However, this is exactly the kind of reason why I prefer concealed carry. Because when done properly, the cop would have had 0 idea the guy was armed, and he wouldn't be in his current predicament.

You've seen a "Walmart Security Guard Uniform"?

Really? I never have. Weird.


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b_oglethorpe
11-09-2012, 16:36
The police violated his rights an we should start collecting for a legal defense fund!!!!!

Haha I'm kidding.

pipedreams
11-09-2012, 16:40
If state law says you must show your permit to LE, then you must do it. However, since he was open-carrying I don't see why this was even an issue. Here, it would have simply been some form of picture ID and he would have gone on his way unless the store manager insisted he leave the premises.

:agree:

This, this case has nothing to do with conceal carry and showing a permit. It is simply open carry and if the management of the store felt uncomfortable with the situation they should ask the person to leave. If they refuse then a trespass charge can be issued by law enforcement. This has nothing to do with conceal carry or any type of permit.

tantrix
11-09-2012, 16:44
:agree:

This, this case has nothing to do with conceal carry and showing a permit. It is simply open carry and if the management of the store felt uncomfortable with the situation they should ask the person to leave. If they refuse then a trespass charge can be issued by law enforcement. This has nothing to do with conceal carry or any type of permit.

Exactly.

txleapd
11-09-2012, 16:45
I was not there so do not know the whole story, but I have to question the legality for demand of the license/permit.

There is quite a bit of case law on this subject, but LEO that work 'security' gigs are operating under the authority of the property owner, not the government, until such time as he/she has RS of a crime being committed.

Just because he was a LEO in uniform, does not necessarily mean that he was in the lawful performance of his duties at the time he requested/demanded the license/permit, nor does it mean that the encounter was lawfully a detention/seizure of his person under 4th Amendment.

Not sure how IOWA case law stands on open carry as RS of a crime.

I don't know how it is in Iowa, but in Texas the authority take legal action is always in effect for Peace Officers. Regardless of on duty, working a secondary assignment, or off duty.

As a side note, my department requires you to wear your department uniform when working a secondary assignment gig, and log on with Communications, so you can be put into CAD (Computer Aided Dispatch).


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JJohnson
11-09-2012, 16:48
All it takes is money and a background check. A background check usually takes 15 minutes, unless it's delayed. You fill out the paper work, they call it in, if you're good to go, you walk out with the firearm. If you're delayed, they have three days to say no, otherwise you can go and pick it up after three days...

Cool thanks. Our permit to purchase pistols allows one to walk into a store and skip the background check completely. Considering the time savings and convenience, I guess Chuck TX was right, it is a progressive idea.

These are only used if one doesn't have a CCW. Since we are a "shall issue" state now, I assume this document will be phased out eventually.

pmcjury
11-09-2012, 16:49
The nice thing is that they don't have to do a background check if you have a CHL. You just walk in, fill out the paper work, hand over your cash and your CHL, and you walk out with your gun a few minutes later.


I've seen people say this several times, but I am curious how a state issued license trumps federal law. Isn't the nics check mandated at the federal level for all ffl sales.

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kenpoprofessor
11-09-2012, 16:52
Permit? What is this permit for carry/purchase you speak of? Damn I love AZ :rofl:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

TK-421
11-09-2012, 16:53
I've seen people say this several times, but I am curious how a state issued license trumps federal law. Isn't the nics check mandated at the federal level for all ffl sales.

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I honestly have no idea if the NICS check is mandated at the federal level, I haven't looked into it. However, the story I've heard is that if someone has a valid CHL, then they already know that their background is clear, and they don't need to go through the effort of checking it again.

Or maybe they just assume that since they have their CHL, they'll clear the background check, so they don't need the person to wait around while they do it.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 17:03
Permit? What is this permit for carry/purchase you speak of? Damn I love AZ :rofl:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Do you have an AZ check and a NICS check to complete at time of purchase from a dealer ?

pipedreams
11-09-2012, 17:14
I don't know how it is in Iowa, but in Texas the authority take legal action is always in effect for Peace Officers. Regardless of on duty, working a secondary assignment, or off duty.

I believe you are correct about on duty or off duty here in Iowa or most any state. I think where this went sideways if the story is correct is the officer should of just ask for identification rather than a CC permit. Apparently the police Sgt. either didn't know the difference between open carry and conceal or he just choose to ignore it. Just my personal opinion but open carry in a dept store is just not a good idea regardless if it is legal or not. On second thought maybe the officer did ask for ID and was told he had a CC but simply refused to produce it. It could of been so simple if the guy produced the permit and the office realized he most likely was no threat and just suggested the man conceal his weapon since people were uneasy.

Chuck TX
11-09-2012, 17:30
Cool thanks. Our permit to purchase pistols allows one to walk into a store and skip the background check completely. Considering the time savings and convenience, I guess Chuck TX was right, it is a progressive idea.

These are only used if one doesn't have a CCW. Since we are a "shall issue" state now, I assume this document will be phased out eventually.

Allows? You have to have one to purchase a pistol then, right?

I don't.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 17:37
Allows? You have to have one to purchase a pistol then, right?

I don't.

You have to pass a background check at time of purchase. I don't.

clancy
11-09-2012, 17:53
This is in Iowa, who just went for Obama. Figures.

The local Walmart has uniformed security guards, several of whom made the local paper for stealing several thousand dollars worth of merchandise. I am in NYS, which also went for Obama. What a coincidence.

TBO
11-09-2012, 18:01
My Wal-mart hires off-duty Officers (in police uniform).

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Little Joe
11-09-2012, 18:38
Why create waves? I would ease their mind and be on my way. It's easier on me, and a good faith civility.

NeverMore1701
11-09-2012, 19:40
You have to pass a background check at time of purchase. I don't.

I don't know about him, but I don't.

certifiedfunds
11-09-2012, 19:46
I've seen people say this several times, but I am curious how a state issued license trumps federal law. Isn't the nics check mandated at the federal level for all ffl sales.

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It doesn't.

If your state's CHL process meets certain criteria, it will serve in lieu of NICS at point of sale. I *THINK* if your state uses NICS when the license is issued.

For instance, Louisiana's doesn't because our legislators are idiots, so I still have to have the check done.

NickC50310
11-09-2012, 20:02
Because he was open carrying...if open carry is legal there without a permit, there is no reason to even ask for such a thing.

Open carry is NOT legal within city limits which obviously this was within city limits.

In Iowa the permit to purchase IS the background check. So you guys in your super duper ultra gun friendly states get to do background checks EVERY time you purchase a firearm. We do one once a year or once every five years if we have a CHL. This allows us to walk in the store, plop down our cash, fill out the 4473, and walk out the door no questions asked. To me it looks like we have a more effective and convenient system! :tongueout::dunno:

certifiedfunds
11-09-2012, 20:12
Open carry is NOT legal within city limits which obviously this was within city limits.

In Iowa the permit to purchase IS the background check. So you guys in your super duper ultra gun friendly states get to do background checks EVERY time you purchase a firearm. We do one once a year or once every five years if we have a CHL. This allows us to walk in the store, plop down our cash, fill out the 4473, and walk out the door no questions asked. To me it looks like we have a more effective and convenient system! :tongueout::dunno:

Do they at least paint a yellow stripe around the city limits so you folks know when you're legal and illegal?:rofl:

Background check takes 5 minutes but after it is complete, I can holster up and walk out with or without government permission.

JJohnson
11-09-2012, 20:23
I enjoy the pissing matches regarding who has the best set of hoops to jump through to exercise a right.

Gills63
11-09-2012, 20:27
So what's if you become disqualified, does it flag your name.

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Bruce M
11-09-2012, 20:30
....

Just because he was a LEO in uniform, does not necessarily mean that he was in the lawful performance of his duties at the time he requested/demanded the license/permit, nor does it mean that the encounter was lawfully a detention/seizure of his person under 4th Amendment.

Not sure how IOWA case law stands on open carry as RS of a crime.


Interesting viewpoint. Maybe the officer derives the authority to stop the suspect from the little smiley guy that cuts the prices at Walmart.

Wyoming
11-09-2012, 21:32
If a police officer asked me for my ID I would show him/her my driver's license even if I wasn't driving at the time.


Maybe it was the way I was raised but it doesn't seem like a good idea to piss people off especially a person with a gun and a big stick.


Many year ago I worked till 3:30 AM. There was never any traffic in my little town at the time. One night there were all kinds of red and blue lights from several vehicles. I pulled over, turned on my dome light, rolled down my driver's side window and put both of my hand on my steering wheel. A police officer came up and asked me a few questions looked at me. Very politely said good buy and they all left. I am sure they were looking for some one driving a Chevy 4X4 but I wasn't the one. Do you know how many Chevy 4X4's there are in Wyoming.



Police have a tough enough job to do. Ever LE officer I ever meet was a person just trying to provide for their family and just want to live long enough to retire. When that police officer working security for Walmart he wasn't doing it for fun. He was probably doing it because he needed to earn extra money. Show him your permit. If you think he violated your rights talk to an attorney later. If he was right you save yourself an arrest record and if he was wrong let your attorney handle it.

TK-421
11-09-2012, 21:35
If a police officer asked me for my ID I would show him/her my driver's license even if I wasn't driving at the time.


Maybe it was the way I was raised too, but I'd do the same thing. Generally, unless you're doing something majorly wrong, if you cooperate everything will be over 10x sooner than if you try to claim every single one of your rights and constantly pester the officer with questions and make stupid demands and all this other ****. If a cop asked to see my ID, i'd just hand it over and let him get on with the more important stuff. There is absolutely no reason to tie up the cop's time more than is absolutely necessary for him to perform his job.

pmcjury
11-09-2012, 21:41
Open carry is NOT legal within city limits which obviously this was within city limits.

In Iowa the permit to purchase IS the background check. So you guys in your super duper ultra gun friendly states get to do background checks EVERY time you purchase a firearm. We do one once a year or once every five years if we have a CHL. This allows us to walk in the store, plop down our cash, fill out the 4473, and walk out the door no questions asked. To me it looks like we have a more effective and convenient system! :tongueout::dunno:

So they don't call in your 4473?

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JJohnson
11-09-2012, 21:46
So they don't call in your 4473?

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No, it is not necessary.

NickC50310
11-09-2012, 22:03
Do they at least paint a yellow stripe around the city limits so you folks know when you're legal and illegal?:rofl:

Background check takes 5 minutes but after it is complete, I can holster up and walk out with or without government permission.

By that time I will have already been armed for five minutes walking out with my pistol holstered on my hip if I chose to do so. What if theres a delay? Then youre waiting a day at least! :tongueout:

I enjoy the pissing matches regarding who has the best set of hoops to jump through to exercise a right.

:rofl::tongueout:

So they don't call in your 4473?

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As Jeff said, no. I didnt even know that when I bought my first pistol back in 05. I was like isnt there a BG check or something and the guy was like no- you already have your permit to purchase. :supergrin:

NickC50310
11-09-2012, 22:04
Do they at least paint a yellow stripe around the city limits so you folks know when you're legal and illegal?:rofl:

Background check takes 5 minutes but after it is complete, I can holster up and walk out with or without government permission.

Yeah on this new invention called a map. Or this other nifty invention called a sign when you enter city limits! :rofl::wavey::supergrin:

SgtScott31
11-09-2012, 22:12
It sounds like Iowa has the same law as TN where statutorily you are required to show the permit upon demand by a LEO. Many stores hire LEOs off-duty due to their experience, education, training, and powers of arrest. They cost more to hire than normal security, but the liability is less if you have someone that knows what they're doing. Regardless of his job responsibilities at Walmart he can still enforce laws unrelated to shoplifting or other retail crimes, which is exactly what he did here. It appears that some customers were concerned which is probably what brought his attention to the guy. Refusing to show it is simply ignorant, especially when required to by law. I'm pretty sure most of the guys that teach the permit classes in my neck of the woods make sure their students know this when coming into contact with LE.

HollowHead
11-09-2012, 22:18
Open carry has elevated to the likes of flying the Confederate flag. Legally protected, Constitutionally guaranteed and even worshipped in some parts but for the love of christ's sake...give it at least an ounce of thought where the hell you do it and how you behave when doing so. HH

TK-421
11-09-2012, 22:32
Open carry has elevated to the likes of flying the Confederate battle flag. Legally protected, Constitutionally guaranteed and even worshipped in some parts but for the love of christ's sake...give it at least an ounce of thought where the hell you do it and how you behave when doing so. HH

Fixed it for you. :supergrin:

And yes, I agree, think first before you grab your open carry holster. It's generally not a good idea to do it, unless you know the area, and you know that the people who will you see are comfortable seeing a firearm on your belt. Most people get uncomfortable around guns, it's just the way it is. Don't like it? Don't piss and moan when you have to talk to the cops multiple times because they complain that you're openly carrying.

RussP
11-10-2012, 06:43
Open carry is NOT legal within city limits which obviously this was within city limits.Iowa has state preemption, right?

The AG has opined that local jurisdictions may restrict carry in government owned/controlled buildings under their home rule power, right?

Yet, Des Moines has an ordinance totally banning open carry within its city limits?

kenpoprofessor
11-10-2012, 06:53
If a police officer asked me for my ID I would show him/her my driver's license even if I wasn't driving at the time.

Maybe it was the way I was raised but it doesn't seem like a good idea to piss people off especially a person with a gun and a big stick.

So any person with a gun and a big stick would intimidate you? Why am I not shocked America is where it is?

Police have a tough enough job to do. Ever LE officer I ever meet was a person just trying to provide for their family and just want to live long enough to retire. When that police officer working security for Walmart he wasn't doing it for fun. He was probably doing it because he needed to earn extra money. Show him your permit. If you think he violated your rights talk to an attorney later. If he was right you save yourself an arrest record and if he was wrong let your attorney handle it.

So would you allow them to come to your house and search it without a warrant? Same thing isn't it? At least it is to me. You've got nothing to hide, so be a good little citizen and let them have their way and they'll leave you alone sooner. :whistling:

Reasonable suspicion? A gun, that is clearly visible, is reasonable suspicion???

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

kenpoprofessor
11-10-2012, 06:55
Fixed it for you. :supergrin:

And yes, I agree, think first before you grab your open carry holster. It's generally not a good idea to do it, unless you know the area, and you know that the people who will you see are comfortable seeing a firearm on your belt. Most people get uncomfortable around guns, it's just the way it is. Don't like it? Don't piss and moan when you have to talk to the cops multiple times because they complain that you're openly carrying.

And sadly, this is why I will never live in my state of birth, it's people like you with this attitude. Sadly, TX has lost it's will to remain a Republic.

Were you raised in TX or a transplant???

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

TBO
11-10-2012, 07:01
FWIW: there ARE people who CAN tell you what to do.
There ARE people who CAN make you do things you don't want to.

Have a great emotionally balanced lawful respectful day.

Sent from the toe of my jack boot using Tapatalk 2

NickC50310
11-10-2012, 07:02
Iowa has state preemption, right?

The AG has opined that local jurisdictions may restrict carry in government owned/controlled buildings under their home rule power, right?

Yet, Des Moines has an ordinance totally banning open carry within its city limits?

Sorry for being dumb this morning but what is preemmption?

Second question- yes, I beleive so.

No- open carry is legal statewide. Without a permit- only in unincorporated areas. With a permit- statewide including within city limits.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 07:05
Did the LEO prove he was in fact a LEO or just walmart security?

Still, once again, we have yet another activist standing his ground asking for trouble, and he got trouble.I would say the uniform with badge and gun probably should have given it away.

Just another idiot with a firearm making the rest of us look bad.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 07:11
It doesn't specify which uniform he was wearing. Was he wearing a Walmart Security Guard uniform, or a Police Officer uniform? My guess would be a Walmart Security Guard Uniform, because if I saw a guy wearing that uniform, and he didn't announce himself as an off duty cop, I'd tell him to buzz off when he asked to see my permit. But if the cop was wearing his police uniform, then the guy shouldn't be allowed to carry his gun for being so stupid. If a cop in uniform asked to see my permit, I'd show it to him, required by law or not, because I'd consider it polite, presuming I was required to have a permit to open carry.

However, this is exactly the kind of reason why I prefer concealed carry. Because when done properly, the cop would have had 0 idea the guy was armed, and he wouldn't be in his current predicament.I have never seen an off duty officer on any detail at any institution anywhere where they were not wearing their department issued uniform. It would totally defeat the purpose of the detail which is SHOWING POLICE PRESENCE IN THE BUILDING.

Thumpernator
11-10-2012, 07:20
Jeeez,, I can't believe you guys haven't noticed that every single WM store has security. They're located at every entrance. It's those nasty Greeters. They are actually highly trained assassins in deep, deep, deep, cover, ready to give you a beat down at a moments notice. :whistling:

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 07:36
So any person with a gun and a big stick would intimidate you? Why am I not shocked America is where it is?



So would you allow them to come to your house and search it without a warrant? Same thing isn't it? At least it is to me. You've got nothing to hide, so be a good little citizen and let them have their way and they'll leave you alone sooner. :whistling:

Reasonable suspicion? A gun, that is clearly visible, is reasonable suspicion???

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

ClydeSo you would rather get arrested and charged than show something to a LEO that has the RIGHT BY LAW to demand it? With "activists" like you around, it is no wonder people who carry are villainized and stereotyped the way we are.

And who the heck said anything about consenting to a search of any kind? It is always the same argument from people like you. If this guy had just furnished what the officer asked for, he would have been on his way in no time. Instead, he has to break the law like an idiot, get arrested, add another charge for resisting, and wait for like minded people to cry about their Constitutional rights. No wonder gun owners rights are going down the drain as fast as they are.

:faint:

TBO
11-10-2012, 07:38
Not familiar with Clyde, eh? :D

Sent from the toe of my jack boot using Tapatalk 2

RussP
11-10-2012, 08:49
Sorry for being dumb this morning but what is preemmption? No local jurisdiction may enact and/or enforce any law contrary to State law.

Okay, first you said...Open carry is NOT legal within city limits which obviously this was within city limits.Then you said...
No- open carry is legal statewide.


Without a permit- only in unincorporated areas.

With a permit- statewide including within city limits.
Known fact is, "Alivonta had a permit to purchase firearms and one to carry a gun...," therefore, he could legally open carry, right?

Bruce M
11-10-2012, 10:43
...

Have a great emotionally balanced lawful respectful day.

... 2:animlol::bowdown::number1:

TK-421
11-10-2012, 11:15
And sadly, this is why I will never live in my state of birth, it's people like you with this attitude. Sadly, TX has lost it's will to remain a Republic.

Were you raised in TX or a transplant???

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Oh I'm a transplant, I'd shoot myself if I was raised in Texas, way too many moronic republicans here for me to ever be happy, and the weather is too hot for me to want to stay. As soon as I can afford it and I find a better job, I'm gone for somewhere cooler, probably on the east coast.

And what's wrong with the attitude? You think it's wrong of me to hand over my ID and be done in two minutes, rather than try and demand every single "right" and ***** with the cop about every little thing he does? Gee, I figure that's the quickest way to get my ass thrown in jail, and I'm not the kind of moron who would spend a night in jail to try and make a point to the cop. You know why? Because doing so would serve ZERO purpose, none what so ever. The cop would think you're just another gun toting moron, would not have any impression made, and he'd go on about his duties, remembering you only as a funny story he can use to share a laugh with his buddies.

I'd rather just be courteous and polite, hand over my ID and then walk away when he is done with me a short time later. Check out all the videos on youtube of guys who are openly carrying and get stopped by police and they ***** up and down the block about the cop stopping them. I bet there isn't one of those videos where the encounter lasted less than 10 minutes, even if it was edited to make it seem like it took less time. That's not only 10 minutes of your time you're wasting, but 10 minutes of the cops time as well. Where as, if you're polite and courteous, instead of a ******, then I bet the cop would be gone in five minutes, rather than ten or even twenty.

I'm so sorry I respect my time more than you do and want any encounter with the police to be as short as possible. I don't break the law, I don't have any warrants, I don't hate the police, I have nothing to hide. If they want to spend a few minutes talking to me, I'll let them. If they want my ID, I'll gladly hand it over. I have no reason to be afraid or be a dick, I have nothing to hide.

HollowHead
11-10-2012, 11:24
Oh I'm a transplant, I'd shoot myself if I was raised in Texas, way too many moronic republicans here for me to ever be happy, and the weather is too hot for me to want to stay. As soon as I can afford it and I find a better job, I'm gone for somewhere cooler, probably on the east coast.

And what's wrong with the attitude? You think it's wrong of me to hand over my ID and be done in two minutes, rather than try and demand every single "right" and ***** with the cop about every little thing he does? Gee, I figure that's the quickest way to get my ass thrown in jail, and I'm not the kind of moron who would spend a night in jail to try and make a point to the cop. You know why? Because doing so would serve ZERO purpose, none what so ever. The cop would think you're just another gun toting moron, would not have any impression made, and he'd go on about his duties, remembering you only as a funny story he can use to share a laugh with his buddies.

I'd rather just be courteous and polite, hand over my ID and then walk away when he is done with me a short time later. Check out all the videos on youtube of guys who are openly carrying and get stopped by police and they ***** up and down the block about the cop stopping them. I bet there isn't one of those videos where the encounter lasted less than 10 minutes, even if it was edited to make it seem like it took less time. That's not only 10 minutes of your time you're wasting, but 10 minutes of the cops time as well. Where as, if you're polite and courteous, instead of a ******, then I bet the cop would be gone in five minutes, rather than ten or even twenty.

I'm so sorry I respect my time more than you do and want any encounter with the police to be as short as possible. I don't break the law, I don't have any warrants, I don't hate the police, I have nothing to hide. If they want to spend a few minutes talking to me, I'll let them. If they want my ID, I'll gladly hand it over. I have no reason to be afraid or be a dick, I have nothing to hide.

Relax. You're trying to reason with a guy who OCs an AR pistol at Denny's... HH

Bruce M
11-10-2012, 11:29
Not every police encounter bolsters Constitutional rights or sets a precedent.

TK-421
11-10-2012, 11:31
Relax. You're trying to reason with a guy who OCs an AR pistol at Denny's... HH

I'll have to keep that in mind, thanks. :rofl:

relayman
11-10-2012, 12:54
WalMart has a right to ban firearms from it's property , forbid open carry , or require the person to have a permit or whatever the hell else they feel like . It's private property. Forget all of the arguments about state or local law . If an authorized agent of that company asks you to show your permit , you either comply or shop elsewhere .

RussP
11-10-2012, 13:40
WalMart has a right to ban firearms from it's property , forbid open carry , or require the person to have a permit or whatever the hell else they feel like . It's private property. Forget all of the arguments about state or local law . If an authorized agent of that company asks you to show your permit , you either comply or shop elsewhere .Walmart's corporate policy is to adhere to the laws of the state where the store is located, so, yeah, applicable laws, state and local, are in play.

RussP
11-10-2012, 13:41
Not every police encounter bolsters Constitutional rights or sets a precedent.True...

brboyer
11-10-2012, 13:52
WalMart has a right to ban firearms from it's property , forbid open carry , or require the person to have a permit or whatever the hell else they feel like . It's private property. Forget all of the arguments about state or local law . If an authorized agent of that company asks you to show your permit , you either comply or shop elsewhere .

If an authorized agent of that company asks you to show your permit , you either comply or shop elsewhere.

Uh, one is under no legal obligation to follow a property owner's request, save one - leave.

tantrix
11-10-2012, 14:25
Open carry is NOT legal within city limits which obviously this was within city limits.

Well that's what I meant...open carry is legal here statewide, city limits or not. It is also legal with no permit required.

With that said, nobody has answered my question yet: Since he was open carrying (weapon NOT concealed), why was a CHL permit even requested? Unless Iowa is one of those retarded states where you have to have permit to even open carry...then of course, you're not a true open-carry state to begin with.



In Iowa the permit to purchase IS the background check. So you guys in your super duper ultra gun friendly states get to do background checks EVERY time you purchase a firearm. We do one once a year or once every five years if we have a CHL. This allows us to walk in the store, plop down our cash, fill out the 4473, and walk out the door no questions asked. To me it looks like we have a more effective and convenient system! :tongueout::dunno:

Permit or not, I can walk in and leave with multiple handguns or rifles in about 10 minutes. I really don't see how it could be any faster.



If this guy had just furnished what the officer asked for, he would have been on his way in no time.

You're assuming. Since some in this thread that even live there can't get their story straight on open carry, and when and where you can do it, not wonder the guy got arrested...the LEO in question probably didn't even know wtf to do.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 14:54
You're assuming. Since some in this thread that even live there can't get their story straight on open carry, and when and where you can do it, not wonder the guy got arrested...the LEO in question probably didn't even know wtf to do.And so are you. So because some individuals who live there are shaky about the laws, it must mean that the officer didn't know what he was doing? Seems like a much larger assumption than I made.

Roger1079
11-10-2012, 14:55
Not familiar with Clyde, eh? :D

Sent from the toe of my jack boot using Tapatalk 2Haven't had the pleasure until now. Definitely encountered his type on many occasions though.

SgtScott31
11-10-2012, 23:59
From the minimal research I have done it appears you are required to have a permit to carry whether concealed or not. If that's the case, then the officer was within his right to request to see it per IA law. Same situation in my state.

tantrix
11-11-2012, 00:51
And so are you. So because some individuals who live there are shaky about the laws, it must mean that the officer didn't know what he was doing? Seems like a much larger assumption than I made.

I don't know if the guy was "shaky" about the laws or not...if a permit is required to open carry in IA, then I'd guess that's why he was asked to produce it. If open carry is legal there without a permit, then it was a false arrest. I'm not taking sides, just looking at it from both angles.

ETA- If SgtScott31 is correct, then said person was indeed required to show his permit since IA isn't a true open carry state (permit required for any type of carry).

NickC50310
11-11-2012, 01:15
No local jurisdiction may enact and/or enforce any law contrary to State law.

Okay, first you said...Then you said...Known fact is, "Alivonta had a permit to purchase firearms and one to carry a gun...," therefore, he could legally open carry, right?

Correct. It is not a local ordinance enacted by the city. Statewide open carry is illegal within city limits without a permit. It is not specific to certain cities. It is not enacted by each city.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

NickC50310
11-11-2012, 01:17
No local jurisdiction may enact and/or enforce any law contrary to State law.

Okay, first you said...Then you said...Known fact is, "Alivonta had a permit to purchase firearms and one to carry a gun...," therefore, he could legally open carry, right?

Absolutely he was 100% legal until he refused to show his permit.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

NickC50310
11-11-2012, 01:20
No local jurisdiction may enact and/or enforce any law contrary to State law.

Okay, first you said...Then you said...Known fact is, "Alivonta had a permit to purchase firearms and one to carry a gun...," therefore, he could legally open carry, right?

Just to further explain- it is not enacted by individual cities or jurisdictions. It is a statewide law. Open carry within city limits requires a permit.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

NickC50310
11-11-2012, 01:27
Well that's what I meant...open carry is legal here statewide, city limits or not. It is also legal with no permit required.

With that said, nobody has answered my question yet: Since he was open carrying (weapon NOT concealed), why was a CHL permit even requested? Unless Iowa is one of those retarded states where you have to have permit to even open carry...then of course, you're not a true open-carry state to begin with.





Permit or not, I can walk in and leave with multiple handguns or rifles in about 10 minutes. I really don't see how it could be any faster.





You're assuming. Since some in this thread that even live there can't get their story straight on open carry, and when and where you can do it, not wonder the guy got arrested...the LEO in question probably didn't even know wtf to do.

Its not that hard to figure out really. I dont understand why everyone is getting so confused. Im drunk now and even i can make sense of it! Lol! Outside city limits- open carry legal for all. Within city limits- open carry requires a permit. Whats so hard? Lol


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Bruce M
11-11-2012, 04:13
Maybe he was certain he was outside city limits. That makes him seem incrementally less.... errr wait, no it doesn't.

Roger1079
11-11-2012, 04:36
Maybe he was certain he was outside city limits. That makes him seem incrementally less.... errr wait, no it doesn't.Ha ha.....Not at all. Stupidity of your location is not a valid excuse.

Bren
11-11-2012, 05:07
Did the LEO prove he was in fact a LEO or just walmart security?

Still, once again, we have yet another activist standing his ground asking for trouble, and he got trouble.

He was wearing his police uniform. That's all the proof you get, prior to court.

relayman
11-11-2012, 07:55
If an authorized agent of that company asks you to show your permit , you either comply or shop elsewhere.

Uh, one is under no legal obligation to follow a property owner's request, save one - leave. Pretty much what I said .

BamaTrooper
11-12-2012, 07:59
God knows that no other state has open carry idiots looking for attention.

We also let gays from Alabama come up here and get married. Tell your friends.

:dunno:

SgtScott31
11-12-2012, 08:48
In my opinion his capacity in working for Walmart does not play a role in this. He was a LEO in an easily identifiable uniform. Case law in my state shows that even if officers are working off-duty they can still enforce laws of the state, regardless of what capacity he is working in involving the off-duty employer.

vart
11-12-2012, 09:53
Permit? What is this permit for carry/purchase you speak of? Damn I love AZ :rofl:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Yep. I always OC when I'm hiking or gold prospecting, and on occasion, I need to stop by a gas station or run into a store for something on my way home or into the bush.

I've never had a problem...:dunno:

I've lived in Iowa, and there is a reason it is a blue state...:whistling:

TBO
11-12-2012, 14:48
Always the low price, always.

brboyer
11-12-2012, 15:38
Pretty much what I said .

No, what you said was:If an authorized agent of that company asks you to show your permit , you either comply or shop elsewhere .

Not even close to what I said.

TBO
11-12-2012, 15:39
Can I see your receipt now?

RussP
11-13-2012, 10:04
Correct. It is not a local ordinance enacted by the city. Statewide open carry is illegal within city limits without a permit. It is not specific to certain cities. It is not enacted by each city.Absolutely he was 100% legal until he refused to show his permit.Just to further explain- it is not enacted by individual cities or jurisdictions. It is a statewide law. Open carry within city limits requires a permit. Its not that hard to figure out really. I dont understand why everyone is getting so confused. Im drunk now and even i can make sense of it! Lol! Outside city limits- open carry legal for all. Within city limits- open carry requires a permit. Whats so hard? LolOkay, you've had a couple days to sober up. I cannot find the state law that says that. How about helping out with a link to that provision of the law?

Thanks...

DanaT
11-13-2012, 10:12
What is best, Salami, Brats, Sucuk,or Kielbasa?

TBO
11-13-2012, 10:34
Dana,

Please stop trolling my threads.

Thanks in advance.

Sent from the toe of my jack boot using Tapatalk 2

DanaT
11-13-2012, 10:43
Dana,

Please stop trolling my threads.

Thanks in advance.

Sent from the toe of my jack boot using Tapatalk 2

I am confused.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

RussP
11-13-2012, 13:57
I am confused. I doubt that...

DanaT
11-13-2012, 14:06
I doubt that...

Why do you doubt me? I was very worried about dinner and my choices were Turkish, Italian, German, and sorta a German/polish mix. I ended up going for German and had wild boar gulash with spaetzle.




Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

RussP
11-13-2012, 14:35
Why do you doubt me? I was very worried about dinner and my choices were Turkish, Italian, German, and sorta a German/polish mix. I ended up going for German and had wild boar gulash with spaetzle.You need to take a lesson from The Mayor, Mayor okie. You know him, right? He's the one with 127,427 posts.

Now, Mayor okie, he posts a lot about his breakfasts, lunches, suppers. Never have I known him to insert his discussions about meals into another member's totally unrelated thread. The Mayor, he's polite that way.

Now, you, you're not so polite. Your dinner worries, well they were posted to disrupt, to incite other members into responding, challenging you. Maybe they would say something impolite. Then you get to report their posts, get them in trouble, or better yet, get the thread closed. You know, that unlucky thing that seems to happen to other members when you enter their threads.

So how about this, if you have a comment to make directly relating to a thread's topic, directly meaning no one needs to ask for clarification, you go right ahead and post.

Now, if all you want to do, like in this thread, is to disrupt things, you know, troll, don't do it.

That way, I'll not have to doubt your intentions.

Thanks... :cool:

DanaT
11-13-2012, 15:03
You need to take a lesson from The Mayor, Mayor okie. You know him, right? He's the one with 127,427 posts.

Now, Mayor okie, he posts a lot about his breakfasts, lunches, suppers. Never have I known him to insert his discussions about meals into another member's totally unrelated thread. The Mayor, he's polite that way.

Now, you, you're not so polite. Your dinner worries, well they were posted to disrupt, to incite other members into responding, challenging you. Maybe they would say something impolite. Then you get to report their posts, get them in trouble, or better yet, get the thread closed. You know, that unlucky thing that seems to happen to other members when you enter their threads.

So how about this, if you have a comment to make directly relating to a thread's topic, directly meaning no one needs to ask for clarification, you go right ahead and post.

Now, if all you want to do, like in this thread, is to disrupt things, you know, troll, don't do it.

That way, I'll not have to doubt your intentions.

Thanks... :cool:

Well, thank you. Of course you are not so polite yourself but that would be off topic to point out that you have made a lot of untrue accusations/assumptions.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

czsmithGT
11-13-2012, 16:54
Its not that hard to figure out really. I dont understand why everyone is getting so confused. Im drunk now and even i can make sense of it! Lol! Outside city limits- open carry legal for all. Within city limits- open carry requires a permit. Whats so hard? Lol


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

I thought the Iowa law required a permit to carry a handgun (inside or outside city limits), that the permit allows either open carry or concealed carry whether within city limits or not, and that while legal, open carry would tend to draw attention. So the "outside city limits open carry legal for all" part I wasn't aware of.

Further, if asked by a law officer to show your permit to carry, legally you are required to comply. Nothing in the law about whether the law officer is on or off duty seems to matter.

CBL
11-13-2012, 17:10
I was not there so do not know the whole story, but I have to question the legality for demand of the license/permit.

There is quite a bit of case law on this subject, but LEO that work 'security' gigs are operating under the authority of the property owner, not the government, until such time as he/she has RS of a crime being committed.

Just because he was a LEO in uniform, does not necessarily mean that he was in the lawful performance of his duties at the time he requested/demanded the license/permit, nor does it mean that the encounter was a lawful detention/seizure of his person under the 4th Amendment.

Not sure how IOWA case law stands on open carry as RS of a crime.
Cant speak to Iowa but in VA when LEOs work off duty gigs they are being paid to perform their law enforcement functions on private property. They maintain the same authority as when on the government dime and are expected to act accordingly.

Peace Warrior
11-14-2012, 05:17
If the Cop wasn't wearing his hat it will get thrown out of court.

pipedreams
11-14-2012, 05:51
Okay, you've had a couple days to sober up. I cannot find the state law that says that. How about helping out with a link to that provision of the law?

Thanks...


I'm still waiting for that reply too. I can't find any mention of that in the code.

RussP
11-14-2012, 07:12
Okay, you've had a couple days to sober up. I cannot find the state law that says that. How about helping out with a link to that provision of the law?

Thanks...I'm still waiting for that reply too. I can't find any mention of that in the code.I read the code again last night and still cannot find that...

barres
11-15-2012, 14:24
No. The one state you'd figure would be the most pro-gun in the entire country, and you can't open carry. Oh, and don't even think about printing, or accidentally exposing your gun, like if your shirt lifts up. Both will get you in serious trouble, and is equivalent to open carry, from what I gather. At least in florida you're allowed to print, and if your shirt lifts up and exposes your gun, like if you're reaching to the top shelf for something, nobody cares. The problem is that the legislature meets every two years, and only for 140 days, and they're so busy with the budget and other ****, that they don't have time to discuss open carry. It was on the table last session, but they didn't do anything with it. Hopefully this session they'll allow it.

I don't know where you get this hogwash. You must intentionally fail to conceal to be guilty of an offense. Printing or the wind blowing your cover garment over your CCW is not intentional. Anything that starts with or contains accidentally is not intentional.

Texas Penal Code ß46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

TK-421
11-15-2012, 15:43
Delete, see below comment.

TK-421
11-15-2012, 15:56
I don't know where you get this hogwash. You must intentionally fail to conceal to be guilty of an offense. Printing or the wind blowing your cover garment over your CCW is not intentional. Anything that starts with or contains accidentally is not intentional.

Texas Penal Code ß46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Alright, you're right, I'm wrong, my bad, I'm sorry.

Just called up the police non-emergency number, and the guy I talked to said that as long as you're not intentionally showing it off, you're fine. He said that if you're wearing a coat and a gust of wind blows it open, and it shows for a second, it's fine. I asked if I reached to the top shelf in a grocery store and my shirt lifted up and exposed my firearm, then it's fine. As long as it's accidental, and I'm not intentionally showing it off, it's fine. And he said that if someone complains and the cops talk to you, just explain that it was accidental, you were reaching for something or a gust of wind blew your coat open, show them your CHL, and everything should be fine.

Thanks for questioning my comment, it got me to do some research and make a phone call, and now I'm better informed and not so worried about printing or accidentally exposing my firearm. :wavey:

Thumpernator
11-15-2012, 17:02
TK-421.....You may now go back to your post.
:supergrin:

Good job.