Is being debt free the new "saving for retirement"? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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glockdoc21
11-10-2012, 07:24
I recently started a new job, and I'm having to decide what I'm going to do for retirement and with the $ that's left over at the end of the month. I'm just starting out, and I'm afraid that politically, it's going to be much safer from here forward to be debt free than to have a huge retirement portfolio. I've heard similar concerns from some of my colleagues of similar age. I wonder if the next 30 years will see a change from investing in the stock market to going back to "burying money in the yard" as some of my relatives say.

RonS
11-10-2012, 07:43
If I were starting out again I would make more of an effort to minimize debt. Save like mad, buy cars for cash, be very careful what you invest in, never refinance a home etc. The problem is that inflation is kind of a tax on people who save. You put a hundred dollars in the ground this year and it will buy less each year until it won't be worth the effort to dig it up.

Good luck, I don't envy young people starting out.

Restless28
11-10-2012, 07:46
Wealth preservation seems awfully challenging now. I work with a few guys in their 50s that have been frugal and saved and invested for decades. They are very concerned now.

robertoh
11-10-2012, 08:01
I was able to retire with a modest retirement amount because we didn't have a house payment,car payment, college payment,and not maxed out credit cards.Also have two pensions from companies I worked for over the years and also the SS payment.If anyone is thinking about retiring early with any of the above pay outs they might want to reconcider.

JMS
11-10-2012, 08:07
I recently started a new job, and I'm having to decide what I'm going to do for retirement and with the $ that's left over at the end of the month. I'm just starting out, and I'm afraid that politically, it's going to be much safer from here forward to be debt free than to have a huge retirement portfolio. I've heard similar concerns from some of my colleagues of similar age. I wonder if the next 30 years will see a change from investing in the stock market to going back to "burying money in the yard" as some of my relatives say.

You need to do both. Not carry debt as it's generally not conducive to building wealth AND have a retirement fund you can draw 3-4% from annually that will last you 30 years of retirement.

paynter2
11-10-2012, 08:12
I recently started a new job, and I'm having to decide what I'm going to do for retirement and with the $ that's left over at the end of the month. I'm just starting out, and I'm afraid that politically, it's going to be much safer from here forward to be debt free than to have a huge retirement portfolio. I've heard similar concerns from some of my colleagues of similar age. I wonder if the next 30 years will see a change from investing in the stock market to going back to "burying money in the yard" as some of my relatives say.

Not all 'huge retirement portfolios' are the same. One thing they all have in common is that they are affected by QE - the creation of more dollars from thin air. But, some 'huge retirement portfolios' are affected negatively and some can hold their own - or even increase in value relative to the debt you own.

Money market funds (dollars buried in the back yard) will become worth less (worthless). Commodities, in an inflationary environment, will generally become worth more.

Investing is always a good idea - choosing what/where to invest... "Aye - there's the rub".

An example: A few years ago I was going to cash out an old (roll-over) IRA, pay the taxes, and pay off my house. I asked my accountant about it. In reply he asked me if I thought I could make more investing the money than the interest on the house. I said yes and left the money invested. That account gained 72% that year. Used wisely, debt can free up funds for other uses.

Also - different things are considered to be money. Paper (dollars) are debt instruments and yet are considered 'money'. Metals are NOT debt instruments - there are no counter-party risks behind an ounce of gold or silver (provided you hold the metal).

When the artificial interest rates can't be held down any longer and serious price inflation commences, do you want paper buried in the back yard? Or do you want metal (buried in the back yard). Or shares of XOM? Or the deed to a farm...?

Averageman
11-10-2012, 08:13
Work hard to get out of debt.
It would not be unreasonable to take a part-time job to pay off your debt allowing you to really move forward with your retirement program.
In this economy even with all of the worry about unemployment you can pick up a part-time job in retail and do a lot of good with your debt.
After you get a good program together you wont even notice the money not being in your check. Make a good five year plan, pay it all off and in the end you're going to be very happy you did.

Highspeedlane
11-10-2012, 08:14
I think it's a good idea and exactly what I'm doing now.

My goal is to be completely retired in 9 years with no mortgage obligation and we will be selling and moving from the Iron Curtain to a more 2A friendly state.

Restless28
11-10-2012, 08:48
This is an interesting conundrum. Dave Ramsey advocates investing before paying the mortgage off. His theory is that a lot of old people have a paid off home and eat alpo.

I'm not quite sure I agree with his broad paintbrush.

If a person is within a few years of retirement, it seems to me that paying off all debt, including the home would be wiser than hoping for significant investment returns in a short time.

It bothers me that he won't adjust his advice,
given the economic malaise that won't end.

MrKandiyohi
11-10-2012, 08:57
I'm trying to focus on getting rid of my mortgage so I'll be down to the basic expenses of:
Food
Heat
Electricity
Water/sewage/trash
Property taxes/insurance
Transportation
basic healthcare
and maybe phone

Figure out what those costs. If you have those covered, then anything else can be curtailed/removed if push comes to shove.

Internet, TV, movies, travel, etc are luxuries. You can enjoy them if you have the excess cash.

Caver 60
11-10-2012, 09:04
Always good to be debt free. We got debt free in 86 and we've stayed that way ever since.

But when I was young I used debt wisely. We've owned 4 different houses, all but the last one bought on credit. Only ever bought one new car on credit. There rest were used. But I'm a pretty good mechanic and I've saved a ton on not buying new cars and repairing my own. I've saved and invested wisely.

One tip. I used what I called the 50% plan over the years.

When I first started, I was able to live on my income without going into heavy debt other than my house. Never used credit cards unless it was paid off at the end of the month.

So when I got a pay raise, I waited to see what it was after taxes. Then I took at least 50% of the extra amount after taxes and either saved or invested it. The rest went to give us a little higher standard of living. Over the years, the amount being saved or invested really added up. Today we're comfortable, not rich, but comfortable.

But you've got to have a wife who will go along with that plan.

glockdoc21
11-10-2012, 09:07
This is an interesting conundrum. Dave Ramsey advocates investing before paying the mortgage off. His theory is that a lot of old people have a paid off home and eat alpo.

I'm not quite sure I agree with his broad paintbrush.

If a person is within a few years of retirement, it seems to me that paying off all debt, including the home would be wiser than hoping for significant investment returns in a short time.

It bothers me that he won't adjust his advice,
given the economic malaise that won't end.

I agree with you, and that's one reason for the initial question. I value Dave Ramsey's advice, but I think that it was more applicable pre-2008. I feel like most people that invest now and let their debt ride (the famous "low and slow debt" like mortgage and student loans) are going to be stuck with no money in their 401K AND a house that they are still trying to pay on. I had rather own a house and my car and worry about trying to pay for food (a relatively small expenditure) than have a small amount of investment income from a large amount that I paid in and have food + mortgage to contend with. I'd rather not be homeless if I pick the wrong team in other words.

Powers77
11-10-2012, 09:17
Get and stay out of debt with the exception of a small mortgage that you can pay off in 15 years or less. At the same time start the retirement savings focusing on putting as much of that into Roth protected type accounts that will eventually allow you to withdraw the funds TAX FREE in your retirement. IMHO the tax free withdraws will be huge by the time you retire. Normal taxable retirement accounts are going to be adversely impacted by the actions of our wonderful politicians who will have raised tax rates on ALL income by the time you retire. Again IMHO.

FullClip
11-10-2012, 09:19
Getting my house paid off and not owing anybody anything was a great feeling, but the bills are always coming in until after you're in the ground (and that expense is paid off).

I've never been comfortable with investing much as I've seen too many guys I know get burned, and I ain't too clever about finances, so having a couple 401Ks in "safe" low yield funds makes me sleep better at night.

Boils down to what you are comfortable risking I think and what kind of life style you want to live in retirement. Take a round the world cruise, or just putter around the house

Guess if worse comes to worse, a purposely botched bank robbery will at least let you "retire" with 3 hots and a cot for the rest of your life.

Patchman
11-10-2012, 10:04
Getting my house paid off and not owing anybody anything was a great feeling, but the bills are always coming in until after you're in the ground (and that expense is paid off).

I've never been comfortable with investing much as I've seen too many guys I know get burned, and I ain't too clever about finances, so having a couple 401Ks in "safe" low yield funds makes me sleep better at night.

The biggest expense is the mortgage. Next is the cost/expenses of purchase/lease a new car every 3 years. Once you shed these expenses, the breathing room feels great.


Boils down to what... kind of life style you want to live in retirement. Take a round the world cruise, or just putter around the house


Even old age has phases. Recent retirees have the energy to travel, etc... but as you get into your 70s, you're not going to feel like being on a bus, car or plane, even if it is taking you to exotic destinations. As you get older, your life is going to revolve around going to one MD's appointment to another.

Bruce M
11-10-2012, 10:57
It will be interesting to see how much of our current financial wisdom will hold true over the next decade or two.

boone10
11-10-2012, 11:02
Tagged till I've got a few minutes...

CAcop
11-10-2012, 11:04
Getting my house paid off and not owing anybody anything was a great feeling, but the bills are always coming in until after you're in the ground (and that expense is paid off).

I've never been comfortable with investing much as I've seen too many guys I know get burned, and I ain't too clever about finances, so having a couple 401Ks in "safe" low yield funds makes me sleep better at night.

Boils down to what you are comfortable risking I think and what kind of life style you want to live in retirement. Take a round the world cruise, or just putter around the house

Guess if worse comes to worse, a purposely botched bank robbery will at least let you "retire" with 3 hots and a cot for the rest of your life.

Not so much these days. A lot of states are cutting back. You will probably end up on house arrest.

CAcop
11-10-2012, 11:17
As for the OP. It is never a bad idea to be debt free.

Of course getting there can be hard when the world around you functions on debt.

Also debt may actually work for you in some ways. Inflation is coming. Just because right now things are pinging off the bottom does not mean it will always be like that.

Keep debt down, keep unneccessary spending down, put something away for retirement, and be willing to downsize in retirement. The last one is key. If your kids are out of the house do you need to have a 4/3? Can you get by with a 2/1? Can you move out of the area?

People get into trouble when they try to do too much with too little.

4Rules
11-10-2012, 11:17
Gold buys just as much as it ever has.

JMS
11-10-2012, 11:33
This is an interesting conundrum. Dave Ramsey advocates investing before paying the mortgage off. His theory is that a lot of old people have a paid off home and eat alpo.

I'm not quite sure I agree with his broad paintbrush.

If a person is within a few years of retirement, it seems to me that paying off all debt, including the home would be wiser than hoping for significant investment returns in a short time.

It bothers me that he won't adjust his advice,
given the economic malaise that won't end.

Not tying up all your money in a mortgage makes sense in your 30's and 40's when time is on your side and you can afford some risk in exchange for a higher return on your investment, when you are in your 60's and 70's most people cannot afford any risk and therefore there return would be minimal, in that case it's better to have the house paid off before you reach that point.

I'd say by 50 years old it makes sense to start making sure your investment portfolio is balanced between growth and preservation as to not leave yourself up the river if those investments don't work out/bounce back by 60.

I personally don't listen to Dave Ramsey because he doesn't give logical financial advice, he tells his listeners what they want to hear in order to sell his lectures/books, etc. Pay low interest before high interest? On what planet does that make sense? Being debt free should be motivation enough to continue chipping away at debt.

Brucev
11-10-2012, 11:34
The less debt the better. Buy what you need to buy for cash. For cars, if possible pay cash. Or... after you make the very best deal possible, if you can qualify for a zero percent loan, do it. But, avoid like the plague long term credit card debt of any kind. For a month or two... it's not the end of the world. But over several years it'll kill your finances.

JMS
11-10-2012, 11:36
Of course getting there can be hard when the world around you functions on debt.

That's very true, when I talk to people and I mention the only thing I've ever paid a penny of interest on is my mortgage they look at me like I'm from a foreign planet. I just don't spend what I don't have, I treat my credit cards the same way I would cash, if I don't have it I don't spend it. If I was with a spouse that didn't feel that same way, we'd live exclusively off cash, can't get in trouble if you don't have plastic.

Carrys
11-10-2012, 12:13
It's rather simple to be honest.

We all know what things are going to be like now that our govt considers it's main job to be, give away "free stuff" to the folks who voted for it.....and with their great approval mind you.

Those of us who understand and don't want "free stuff" from our govt know what is coming. Maybe not today, next week, or even next year, but we know it's coming.

There's nothing any of us can do about the people who've taken over our Country, nothing short of what should be done with 'em every time we get a sight picture that is. But what we shouild be doing with what time we have left is to prepare.

Plan and prepare for the Greece like conditions we know are coming. We tried to save our Country with elections and the ways suggested, didn't work. Time to get busy doing what we must. Figure it out.

Restless28
11-10-2012, 12:27
It's rather simple to be honest.

We all know what things are going to be like now that our govt considers it's main job to be, give away "free stuff" to the folks who voted for it.....and with their great approval mind you.

Those of us who understand and don't want "free stuff" from our govt know what is coming. Maybe not today, next week, or even next year, but we know it's coming.

There's nothing any of us can do about the people who've taken over our Country, nothing short of what should be done with 'em every time we get a sight picture that is. But what we shouild be doing with what time we have left is to prepare.

Plan and prepare for the Greece like conditions we know are coming. We tried to save our Country with elections and the ways suggested, didn't work. Time to get busy doing what we must. Figure it out.

I would love to have discussions on this here. I think we all can learn something and share.

boone10
11-10-2012, 20:51
It's rather simple to be honest.

We all know what things are going to be like now that our govt considers it's main job to be, give away "free stuff" to the folks who voted for it.....and with their great approval mind you.

Those of us who understand and don't want "free stuff" from our govt know what is coming. Maybe not today, next week, or even next year, but we know it's coming.

There's nothing any of us can do about the people who've taken over our Country, nothing short of what should be done with 'em every time we get a sight picture that is. But what we shouild be doing with what time we have left is to prepare.

Plan and prepare for the Greece like conditions we know are coming. We tried to save our Country with elections and the ways suggested, didn't work. Time to get busy doing what we must. Figure it out.

ding ding ding ding

It took several replies, but we finally have a winner. Folks, this ain't dear old Dad's stock market--the gig is up and most all "investments" are officially a scam. Thousands upon thousands of people are trying to get your investment money--their very existence depends on it. Problem is, they are living off what you send day to day. How's that Facebook stock working out for ya?

A Romney/Ryan victory could have "slowed our roll" into collapse, but we're running headlong and full-speed over the cliff now. PLEASE do as the above poster has recommended and trade any spare paper for tangibles (productive land, food, gold, silver, guns, ammo, fuels, etc.). Get out of debt and into prepping.

boone10
11-10-2012, 21:07
The "new normal" is gonna suck.

Scott3670
11-10-2012, 21:15
Well, I'm proud to say that my wife and I are debt-free minus our house and two cars. The cars will be paid off in three years and the house is ours in 15 years, which is just the time that I'll retire. I've been contributing quite religiously to my 401k-type account and already have over $250K, and I have a great pension plan (US Government) so I'm really hoping that by the time that I retire we will be able to live comfortably.

Caver 60
11-10-2012, 22:23
As for the OP. It is never a bad idea to be debt free.

Of course getting there can be hard when the world around you functions on debt.

Also debt may actually work for you in some ways. Inflation is coming. Just because right now things are pinging off the bottom does not mean it will always be like that.

Keep debt down, keep unneccessary spending down, put something away for retirement, and be willing to downsize in retirement. The last one is key. If your kids are out of the house do you need to have a 4/3? Can you get by with a 2/1? Can you move out of the area?

People get into trouble when they try to do too much with too little.

Excellent advice, especially the part about doing 'too much with too little.' IMO

ding ding ding ding

It took several replies, but we finally have a winner. Folks, this ain't dear old Dad's stock market--the gig is up and most all "investments" are officially a scam. Thousands upon thousands of people are trying to get your investment money--their very existence depends on it. Problem is, they are living off what you send day to day. How's that Facebook stock working out for ya?

A Romney/Ryan victory could have "slowed our roll" into collapse, but we're running headlong and full-speed over the cliff now. PLEASE do as the above poster has recommended and trade any spare paper for tangibles (productive land, food, gold, silver, guns, ammo, fuels, etc.). Get out of debt and into prepping.

See last paragraph. Good advice IMO, especially productive land, etc. for the long term.

Restless28
11-11-2012, 06:19
Again, these are the types of discussions that we should be having. Our fall was decided on Nov 6, now we need to adjust and plan on how it affects us.

I am 5 years away from eligibility of retirement. I am stopping contributions to my 457, but will maintain the 6% pension contribution.

My focus will be on to get out of all debt as soon as possible, while still using funds to prepare and still keeping the family happy.

I think Ramsey is wrong. Times have changed.

mac66
11-11-2012, 06:54
No matter what the economy the old saying "pay yourself first" still applies. That means investing at least 10% of your earnings. Things change, it is likely the economy will eventually come back. (Maybe not under this president but in the future). You need to look at the long term, 30-40 years. There are still good investments around if you look. You need to talk to an investment person and seek a diversified portfolio.

Here is another clue, don't go to a gun forum and ask investment advice.:supergrin:

Atlas
11-11-2012, 07:15
...Our fall was decided on Nov 6, now we need to adjust and plan on how it affects us.
..

Our fall was decided many years ago, long before the election. Our fate was sealed when we allowed congress to have a blank check written on the Federal Reserve bank.


...Things change, it is likely the economy will eventually come back. (Maybe not under this president but in the future). You need to look at the long term, 30-40 years. ..

In the long term we will be attempting to service $222 trillion (by todays valuation) of unfunded government debt without any possibility of doing so.

"Pay yourself first" in paper assets valued against the future value of the dollar as it stagers and falls under the weight of that totally unserviceable debt? Best of luck to you.

Patchman
11-11-2012, 08:06
Saving for retirement is time based. Way too many people start thinking about retirement after it's already too late. So we're going to end up with a large group of retirees who have saved some $, but not enough $, for them to live out retirement in the style they've become accustomed to.

As I've posted before, retirees will be applying for food stamps and other .gov aid etc... This is even for those who've never taken a dime in .gov dole in all their working years.

Patchman
11-11-2012, 08:19
No matter what the economy the old saying "pay yourself first" still applies. That means investing at least 10% of your earnings. Things change, it is likely the economy will eventually come back. (Maybe not under this president but in the future). You need to look at the long term, 30-40 years.

I absolutely agree that one should be saving (at least) 10-percent of one's earning. This should start from day 1 of the person's first job. Absolutely

And I also agree that the market always has gone up in any 30-40 period, but unfortunitly, those in their, say mid-40s to 50s, don't have a 30-40 year horizon. Currently, the market is only where it was in 2000 or 2001. That's a decade of lost time and opportunities that a (future) retiree can never get back.


Here is another clue, don't go to a gun forum and ask investment advice.:supergrin:

Not financial advise, but plenty people here have useful life experiences that may be relevant. Such as shedding long term debt and disciplined savings habits. If nothing else, it's great reminders.

Restless28
11-11-2012, 09:14
I absolutely agree that one should be saving (at least) 10-percent of one's earning. This should start from day 1 of the person's first job. Absolutely

And I also agree that the market always has gone up in any 30-40 period, but unfortunitly, those in their, say mid-40s to 50s, don't have a 30-40 year horizon. Currently, the market is only where it was in 2000 or 2001. That's a decade of lost time and opportunities that a (future) retiree can never get back.




Not financial advise, but plenty people here have useful life experiences that may be relevant. Such as shedding long term debt and disciplined savings habits. If nothing else, it's great reminders.

The bolded portion is what Dave Ramsey misses on. I think that is why these discussions are relevant, as many of us are in or close to this age.

DanaT
11-11-2012, 09:27
This is an interesting conundrum. Dave Ramsey advocates investing before paying the mortgage off. His theory is that a lot of old people have a paid off home and eat alpo.

Maybe better to eat alpo dry in a house than eating alpo in a shelter..

Restless28
11-11-2012, 09:29
Maybe better to eat alpo dry in a house than eating alpo in a shelter..

I'm not agreeing with Ramsey. I disagree with his generalities, especially when it comes to this. Someone in their 40's or 50's shouldn't buy into his generic advice, IMHO.

DanaT
11-11-2012, 09:33
The bolded portion is what Dave Ramsey misses on. I think that is why these discussions are relevant, as many of us are in or close to this age.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I am a long ways (age wise) from retirement.

Based upon doing expat work for a while (especially when the dollar was REALLY bad) I have actually weathered this well.

Hard work, education, making things happen are all part of success, but a little luck helps.

As an example when I was paid in Swiss francs, they went up 30% in one year. That was essentially a 30% return in a year. You cant always plan on those things happening.

I have made a bunch during this, but it was as more luck than skill with investments.

boone10
11-11-2012, 10:16
I'm not agreeing with Ramsey. I disagree with his generalities, especially when it comes to this. Someone in their 40's or 50's shouldn't buy into his generic advice, IMHO.


I have been a talk radio guy all my life--even hosted a hunting/fishing show for over 3 years. Dave Ramsay has helped THOUSANDS of people in his time. Unfortunately, he has jumped the shark. He is "all in" with his strategies that worked safely and very well prior to 2008. Times have changed. Pay off all debt--hell yes. Invest is quality mutual funds--hell no. The stock market will not survive--not just ups and downs--absolute death is imminent.

If he changes now, well, he'll just look like a fraud and image is everything. And honestly, when the wheels really do start coming off, nobody is gonna have the time to start hunting down their financial adviser (whoever it may be).

Be very wary of ANY financial adviser. Your money is the only money they get every month. They will say anything to feed their family. I hate that is has come to this, but its true. BTW, I would rather poll the folks on GT than ask an "adviser" who's very existence depends solely on my support.

I, too, enjoy this type of discussion. Like politics, some folks are extreme (to both sides) while others remain somewhere in the middle.

uptomyneck
11-11-2012, 11:26
We are debt free. Live outside a small town in a county that's 95% fairly decent white folk. We enjoy the water out of the 300' well and have a PV system with 6800 amp hours of battery power. Well over 1500 gallons of propane and diesel. Food and ammo stacked high. I heat 100% with wood from my place. Now we're kinda just hunkered down, spending money on just neccessities. Trading fiat dollars for hard assets.

I'm out of the public workforce. I manage our portfolio and make money off of less astute investors. We lost a good chunk of money on our old house. Sold at the bottom because of laziness. Obviously real estate isn't our forte.

"All you can do is all you can do. But is all you can do enough?"

I guess we'll see.

JMS
11-11-2012, 14:48
The stock market will not survive--not just ups and downs--absolute death is imminent.

History has shown otherwise,in addition when there is blood on the streets is the best time to buy.

Patchman
11-11-2012, 15:28
History has shown otherwise,in addition when there is blood on the streets is the best time to buy.

BUY LOW is only one half the equation.

Since 2001, and after 2008, I've purchased a bunch of mutual funds and stocks at very attractive prices (historically).

And then I learned the second half of the equation. Stock prices have generally stagnated and very few of the funds and stocks have moved up enough to SELL HIGH. And as the years go by, what is my annual ROR?

Buy Low-Sell High works if I have a 30-40 year horizon. Since 2000/2001, we've had a lost decade. That's 1/3 to 1/4 of the horizon. I don't see the rest of this decade (2012-2019) as a go-go decade.

Restless28
11-11-2012, 16:07
BUY LOW is only one half the equation.

Since 2001, and after 2008, I've purchased a bunch of mutual funds and stocks at very attractive prices (historically).

And then I learned the second half of the equation. Stock prices have generally stagnated and very few of the funds and stocks have moved up enough to SELL HIGH. And as the years go by, what is my annual ROR?

Buy Low-Sell High works if I have a 30-40 year horizon. Since 2000/2001, we've had a lost decade. That's 1/3 to 1/4 of the horizon. I don't see the rest of this decade (2012-2019) as a go-go decade.

Good post.

jtull7
11-11-2012, 17:57
The fix is in:
The deal is down,
The game is cooked,
The dice are loaded,
The wheels are rigged, and
The decks are marked, shaved, and stacked.
The dealers always cheat,
And the chef just spit in your soup.

Flying-Dutchman
11-11-2012, 19:46
The fix is in:
The deal is down,
The game is cooked,
The dice are loaded,
The wheels are rigged, and
The decks are marked, shaved, and stacked.
The dealers always cheat,
And the chef just spit in your soup.
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you.:supergrin:

SevenSixtyTwo
11-11-2012, 19:46
We're debt free. House is paid off and we paid cash for our vehicles. We ate at TacoBell tonight. Alpo would be a step up!

Financial advisers are taking care of their interests, not yours.

dabigguns357
11-11-2012, 20:24
We worked very hard,both of us to get out of debt and we finally have and it's great.It's not much but's all we need,4 bed 2 bath on an acre.

I have bought my last 4 cars with cash and haven't looked back,though I still have a lot to learn about mechanics,i do try and most of the time get it right.

Our bills range with winter and summer,summer being better because i forbid a/c,heck I even cut electric by 50.00 a month just by hanging cloths out to dry.My wife and I think really hard on what we buy now days,and save cash we don't use.Kids don't mind not getting 5,000.00 in gifts and we don't go broke at Christmas.

I'm really starting to take my dads depression lessons to heart and i know one day they will pay off.I live every day as if the economy will collapse and our system will dry up.

Monthy bills range from 600.00 to 750.00 a month and we can do all that with just one of my paychecks,everything else either goes to the bank or (cash only) guns and ammo.

nursetim
11-11-2012, 20:43
Sorry, I don't get this debt free thing. I want to be in debt up to my eyeballs. When hyper inflation hits, i'll be paying back money that is essentially worthless. Buy a house now for $250,000 with payments of $1200-1500, in 1-2 yrs that payment will be a much smaller fraction of take home pay. Same with my school loans. Pay will have to keep pace with inflation or no one works.

Flying-Dutchman
11-11-2012, 21:00
Sorry, I don't get this debt free thing. I want to be in debt up to my eyeballs. When hyper inflation hits, i'll be paying back money that is essentially worthless. Buy a house now for $250,000 with payments of $1200-1500, in 1-2 yrs that payment will be a much smaller fraction of take home pay. Same with my school loans. Pay will have to keep pace with inflation or no one works.
I used to think this but now have doubts.

First off pay has not been keeping up with inflation.

Second, new government rules will protect the banks. They will change the terms of the loans. Think it will not happen?

Restless28
11-11-2012, 21:26
I used to think this but now have doubts.

First off pay has not been keeping up with inflation.

Second, new government rules will protect the banks. They will change the terms of the loans. Think it will not happen?

I don't. The banks rule the world.

CAcop
11-11-2012, 22:32
Sorry, I don't get this debt free thing. I want to be in debt up to my eyeballs. When hyper inflation hits, i'll be paying back money that is essentially worthless. Buy a house now for $250,000 with payments of $1200-1500, in 1-2 yrs that payment will be a much smaller fraction of take home pay. Same with my school loans. Pay will have to keep pace with inflation or no one works.

I think so too, just do it in moderation.

Houses around here have gone from 50% of pre crash to 67% of pre crash. Interest rates are ridiculously low. I tell the new guys to buy now if they can. If they are really smart they should buy something further from town for a lot less and go for a 15 or 20 year loan. That way when they retire they have no mortgage. they can then sell and move to another state, or cheaper part of the state, and live like kings.

rauldduke1979
11-11-2012, 22:46
Savings, debt free, whatever, listen, all that stuff is fine. Yeah, do it.

But let me tell you something that I've learned.

A penny saved is a penny earned is a fine as far as it goes.

But you spend your time figuring out to save your one penny, and I'll spend my time figuring out how to make 10 pennies instead of 1, and I win.

Invest in yourself. Don't have enough money? Make more. Get promoted. Can't get promoted? Up your game. Add a few skills to your resume. Don't like working for "the man"? Great. Go into business for yourself.

The point is, at some level cutting back and getting out of whatever is kind of BS that's being sold to poor people. What does Dave Ramsey's house look like? Does he live in a shack in the woods and drive a used car? I sort of doubt it.

Dave's got a scam. Be like Dave. Get a scam. Get a game going.

My portfolio earns between 5-6 percent a year, but the best investment I ever made was grad school - upped my income 90% in about 13 months by investing in myself.

Invest in yourself.

glockdoc21
11-12-2012, 04:04
Invest in yourself.

I agree. Money, thankfully is not the problem. I'm only concerned because I'm just now getting to the point in my life where I can save some, and I'm trying to figure out whether to open a vanguard voyager account or pay off my mortgage. I guess If I knew that I could get rich selling into to others :cool: thanks everyone for the responses to this thread!

boone10
11-12-2012, 16:20
I agree. Money, thankfully is not the problem. I'm only concerned because I'm just now getting to the point in my life where I can save some, and I'm trying to figure out whether to open a vanguard voyager account or pay off my mortgage. I guess If I knew that I could get rich selling into to others :cool: thanks everyone for the responses to this thread!

Vanguard is thrilled that someone is still thinking of them in these tough (think collapsing) economic times.

Restless28
11-12-2012, 16:27
Vanguard is thrilled that someone is still thinking of them in these tough (think collapsing) economic times.

Yep. I'm stopping my 457 tomorrow, evaluating accident policies and planning for my journey to 100% freedom from lenders.

4Rules
11-12-2012, 17:45
Pay will have to keep pace with inflation or no one works.

Work will have to keep pace with inflation or no one eats.

...pay has not been keeping up with inflation...

That is the ugly reality.

Things (on this earth) are not going to get any better.

Restless28
11-12-2012, 17:48
Work will have to keep pace with inflation or no one eats.



That is the ugly reality.

Things (on this earth) are not going to get any better.

This is something most people do not want to hear nor believe.

Folks better pay attention.

Those who do neither are making a mistake.

Folks better educate themselves and begin making plans on how to deal with what is coming.

4Rules
11-12-2012, 18:14
And remember to save the last one for yourself.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/)

The Road - Official Trailer [HD] - YouTube

SpectreRider
11-12-2012, 18:21
tagged

JohnBT
11-12-2012, 19:01
"My portfolio earns between 5-6 percent a year"

You're ahead of inflation, maybe, but I'd be looking for a new broker or advisor.

srhoades
11-12-2012, 19:14
Most people fail to realize that retirement is a fairly new thing when contrasted with the history of the world (at least for the middle class). I find it interesting that many middle class Americans complain about the entitlement attitude of the lower class yet fail to realize that they themselves are not entitled to a retirement. I for one am not putting my hope in a retirement. That doesn't mean I do not think it is a good idea to save and invest, but I more or less plan on working until I am unable to do so.

Patchman
11-12-2012, 19:28
I for one am not putting my hope in a retirement. That doesn't mean I do not think it is a good idea to save and invest, but I more or less plan on working until I am unable to do so.

You mean you choose to work full time until you're unable to do so? It's one thing when one works until they are unable to by choice. It's another when one's forced.

Which of course, begs the question, is "retirement" a privilege/luxury?

All of a sudden, a job with a dependable retirement plan doesn't seem so nefarious anymore, does it?

CAcop
11-12-2012, 21:30
You guys are a bunch of drama queens. In the Great Depression the unemployment rate was twice what our U-6 rate is and four times the number the media quotes. I should take names and quotes down so in 10-20 years when the economy is booming again I can remind you of how silly you were.

boone10
11-13-2012, 04:36
You guys are a bunch of drama queens. In the Great Depression the unemployment rate was twice what our U-6 rate is and four times the number the media quotes. I should take names and quotes down so in 10-20 years when the economy is booming again I can remind you of how silly you were.

I would gladly take all the public humiliation possible just to see the United States return to her former position in the world (economically and otherwise). Countless others have suffered far worse.

Restless28
11-13-2012, 04:40
You guys are a bunch of drama queens. In the Great Depression the unemployment rate was twice what our U-6 rate is and four times the number the media quotes. I should take names and quotes down so in 10-20 years when the economy is booming again I can remind you of how silly you were.

You're correct. The United States is immune to failure due to overwhelming debt and debasing of the currency.

Vic777
11-13-2012, 05:47
I wonder if the next 30 years will see a change from investing in the stock market to going back to "burying money in the yard" as some of my relatives say.I just buried a throwaway and 1,000 rounds on a remote piece of land. Might be worth something in twenty years.

Flying-Dutchman
11-13-2012, 06:59
You guys are a bunch of drama queens. In the Great Depression the unemployment rate was twice what our U-6 rate is and four times the number the media quotes. I should take names and quotes down so in 10-20 years when the economy is booming again I can remind you of how silly you were.
How is the media lying about the Great Depression unemployment rate?

We didn't have a $17 Trillion debt in the Great Depression.

Now we shot our load with no effect. Now what?

Our economy will not boom until we get rid of Socialism; unfortunately we are going in the wrong direction.

Fear Night
11-13-2012, 10:00
Sorry, I don't get this debt free thing. I want to be in debt up to my eyeballs. When hyper inflation hits, i'll be paying back money that is essentially worthless. Buy a house now for $250,000 with payments of $1200-1500, in 1-2 yrs that payment will be a much smaller fraction of take home pay. Same with my school loans. Pay will have to keep pace with inflation or no one works.
That is based on a lot of assumptions. You think if we experienced 20% inflation next year, every employer would go around give everybody a 20+% raise out of the goodness of their hearts? :rofl: Keep dreaming, bud.

Telling somebody to purposefully take on more debt, in a future where we will all be blessed to be working AT ALL, is pretty irresponsible.

http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/03/30/inflation-and-consumer-debt-truth-and-myth/

DanaT
11-13-2012, 11:34
Sorry, I don't get this debt free thing. I want to be in debt up to my eyeballs. When hyper inflation hits, i'll be paying back money that is essentially worthless. Buy a house now for $250,000 with payments of $1200-1500, in 1-2 yrs that payment will be a much smaller fraction of take home pay. Same with my school loans. Pay will have to keep pace with inflation or no one works.

The big risk hanging out there with the national debt is stagflation. It has been happening for a few years and there is no economic model how to fix it.


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Averageman
11-13-2012, 17:34
I hate to say it, but just how were the autobahns built?
Unemployed, but collecting a check?
Nothing to do but hang-out?
The Socialists will find you a job and here is your shovel.
Want to rebuild America, well that aint the way to do it.

DanaT
11-13-2012, 20:09
I hate to say it, but just how were the autobahns built?
Unemployed, but collecting a check?
Nothing to do but hang-out?
The Socialists will find you a job and here is your shovel.
Want to rebuild America, well that aint the way to do it.

How are the autobahns built? Slowly and debt free. It would be very nice if the A98 could be paid for so it could be finished. That would cut the time required for me to go to Munich in half and take 50% off going to Stuttgart. As it is the A98 only goes a short distance from the A5 to the A861 and abruptly ends.


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certifiedfunds
11-13-2012, 20:19
You guys are a bunch of drama queens. In the Great Depression the unemployment rate was twice what our U-6 rate is and four times the number the media quotes. I should take names and quotes down so in 10-20 years when the economy is booming again I can remind you of how silly you were.

10-20 years is a long time. Many on this thread will be dead.

What happens between now and 20 years? Its already been 4. 24 years is 1/3 of the average lifespan and more than half of the average person's working life.

How long did the Great Depression last? Any chance there is another one in the next 10-20 years?

How does this recovery happen under the weight of this debt and projected debt?

Clutch Cargo
11-13-2012, 21:13
I retired debt free at age 51 and I'm now 57. My monthly retirement income isn't great, but I'm OK.
I'm enjoying getting paid a small amount to travel all over Europe and keep musicians safe.

devildog2067
11-13-2012, 21:18
Most people fail to realize that retirement is a fairly new thing when contrasted with the history of the world (at least for the middle class). I find it interesting that many middle class Americans complain about the entitlement attitude of the lower class yet fail to realize that they themselves are not entitled to a retirement.

I posted a thread about this recently, it got interesting.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1443301

ChuteTheMall
11-13-2012, 21:44
Retirement, unlike debt, is something you purchase in advance.

You purchase it with every paycheck, investing in a variety of vehicles including social security, as forced upon you by the government.
Perhaps you sell your time to a job which pays something now and also promises something later in a pension .
Perhaps you also purchase your "entitlement" to something from an employer's plan, company stock with a match.
Perhaps you also purchase ever increasing piles of mutual funds via 401K or IRA, or maybe you purchase shiny pieces of metal. Or savings bonds. Or a mattress stuffed with greenbacks.

It's not an entitlement, is something you already paid for; some got better deals than others, that's life.

DanaT
11-13-2012, 23:37
Chute, i like how you look at it.

But (always a but) there are people who don't purchase it (or don't purchase enough of it) and still expect it. Then it becomes an entitlement.


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stevemc
11-14-2012, 05:57
I remember being 20 and not caring at all about retirement. I wanted the money on my check to pay the bills.
If you start early enough, $25-35 weekly into an account will be a substantial amount when you "retire". There are many annuity projecting programs on line that can help you with that. Also, if you adopt a "less is more" lifestyle, you will not have to worry about the future nearly as much.

Averageman
11-14-2012, 07:48
I think retirement at this point is not in my agenda.
I have a retirement check comming in now and I work full time. I wont stay at this job past 60, but I have a shop and a plan to work well in to my 90's.
I really dont want to sit back and relax, that is what kills you.