What Kinda Ammo do you prefer? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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HotRoderX
11-10-2012, 19:50
I hope to take my new rifle out to the range some time this coming week.

I went to the local Walmart they had Tula for 4.89 a box of 20. It seems to be pretty basic stuff 55gr nothing special. I have used Tula in my glock with very few problems other then the occasional dud. I also went ahead and ordered some PMC 55gr offline just waiting for it to ship.

What do you guys use and prefer what have you had good luck with? I keep seeing this stuff called "Lake City" That looks to be military surplus. I have seen some marked ADI which looks to be Australasian Military surplus.

I don't have any issues using non corrosive military surplus if its safe.

LA_357SIG
11-10-2012, 19:55
I like XM193. Good for range use as well as self defense ammo.

skyboss_4evr
11-10-2012, 20:00
I like XM193. Good for range use as well as self defense ammo.

Same here.

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 20:15
Call me cheap, but I keep thousands of rounds of Wolf on hand.

Good enough for the range... If needed for anything for more than just the range, it'll do the job just fine, IMHO.

Travclem
11-10-2012, 20:18
XM-193, or my reloaded version of it, is my standard plinking ammo. Since steel cased ammo can't be reloaded, I have no use for it. Also, in my experience, extractors don't last long with steel cased ammo but plenty of people shoot it.

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 20:24
XM-193, or my reloaded version of it, is my standard plinking ammo. Since steel cased ammo can't be reloaded, I have no use for it. Also, in my experience, extractors don't last long with steel cased ammo but plenty of people shoot it.

An extractor is, what, $0.90?

Matthew Courtney
11-10-2012, 20:30
Call me cheap, but I keep thousands of rounds of Wolf on hand.

Good enough for the range... If needed for anything for more than just the range, it'll do the job just fine, IMHO.

Wolf shoots very well from some rifles. M193 is quite consistent in its Federal and Winchester iterations. 50 gr vmax loaded by Fiochi is extremely accurate from several of our rifles.

If money were no object. Barnes TTSX all day long!

Travclem
11-10-2012, 20:33
An extractor is, what, $0.90?
That $0.90 extractor is worth a whole lot more when you don't have a spare in the middle of nowhere hog hunting. I have since stopped shooting steel ammo and started carrying spare parts with me everywhere. On top of that, I can shoot high quality brass cased ammo for cheaper than low quality steel ($0.17/round vs $0.25/round). I wont tell anyone not to steel cased ammo, I just personally do not.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 20:35
The Tula you saw at Walmart is what I'm shooting the most of as of late. Before then Wolf Military classic. I have yet to see any adverse side effects from shooting steel cased ammunition. I did shoot XM193 when shooting 3gun at a range that didn't allow steel cased ammunition. Why did they not allow it? Who knows. I shoot my 1/4" AR500 w/ steel cased 55gr FMJ as close as 20 yards and it does nothing more take off the paint. Accuracy is well w/i the range of exceptable as compared to American Eagle and Privi brass cased 55gr.

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 20:37
[QUOTE=Travclem;19617865]...when you don't have a spare ...QUOTE]

Yeah... That's why I keep spare parts in my Magpul MOE grip or Vltor stock.

Spings and peices can be invaluable.

Granted, I don't have all sorts of spares in every rifle...so I could easily be just as ____ed. :embarassed:

Travclem
11-10-2012, 20:42
Yeah... That's why I keep spare parts in my Magpul MOE grip or Vltor stock.

Spings and peices can be invaluable.

Granted, I don't have all sorts of spares in every rifle...so I could easily be just as ____ed. :embarassed:My main rifles all get one of these.
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm252/travclem/80867ee9.jpg

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 20:45
My main rifles all get one of these.


That is cute.

Is that a "kit"?

Don't think I've ever seen it marketed that way.

Opine.

Travclem
11-11-2012, 08:18
That is cute.

Is that a "kit"?

Don't think I've ever seen it marketed that way.

Opine.

It's a Magpul MIAD grip core modified to hold the cam pin, firing pin retainer, and a BCM bolt.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 10:00
One other thing I thought about. Be aware that some ranges do not allow steel core/penatrator ammunition. If you plan on shooting steel plates you won't want to use it either.

WoodenPlank
11-11-2012, 10:46
Range use - Federal XM193 and Wolf or Tula 55gr. All of my optics get zeroed with Federal, and I generally plink with cheap crap. If you do this, keep a chamber brush and a good cleaner handy - you'll probably need it. My SBR started short stroking recently, most likely due to a fouled chamber from all the steel case.

HD/SD mags currently loaded with Hornady TAP 75gr 5.56 (8126N), but I'm looking at a switch to Federal TRU T223S 55gr TSX loads. Got a couple boxes for accuracy testing later this week.

cowboy1964
11-11-2012, 11:43
I shoot M193 clones simply because that's the cheapest stuff I can find easily. I'd shoot Wolf/Silver Bear if I could get it (I did manage to snag a case of Silver Bear last year - it's good stuff).

A range may not allow steel-CASED simply because they don't want to deal with the hassle of sorting out the cases and want only brass. Ranges that don't allow steel-CORES is because they are dangerous for metal targets and backstops.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 12:19
Let's not start the brass/steel or the cleaning/maintenance debate but shooting steel cased ammunition doesn't require any special tools or extra maintenance. Well that is my experience after shooting thousands of rounds of Tula and through classes and regular range outings in ARs that went 12months w/o any sort of cleaning or maintenance. I just don't think people should worry unnecessarily.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 while shopping for baby furniture.

WoodenPlank
11-11-2012, 12:40
Let's not start the brass/steel or the cleaning/maintenance debate but shooting steel cased ammunition doesn't require any special tools or extra maintenance. Well that is my experience after shooting thousands of rounds of Tula and through classes and regular range outings in ARs that went 12months w/o any sort of cleaning or maintenance. I just don't think people should worry unnecessarily.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 while shopping for baby furniture.

I have had several barrels what would disagree with you on that. Both of the Colt M4A1 barrels I have had had issues running steel cased ammo. It seemed to be a combination of chamber fouling and weak ammo. My current LMT upper decided this week it would start short stroking with everything, even though no parts had changed. I did discover some noticable carbon fouling in the chamber, which I think was the culprit, since I have been shooting a decent amount of Tula lately. There was also noticeable carbon residue on any cases that were ejected.

While there are plenty of rifles out there that will gladly eat steel cased ammo, not all of them will. In my experience, it tends to be less of an issue in uppers that are either over-gassed or cut with a loose chamber.

Clutch Cargo
11-11-2012, 13:06
M-855. The twist on my DD M4 doesn't like the lighter stuff when accuracy counts.

Then again my ALL TIME FAVORITE AMMO? but of course, FREE ammo

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 13:39
I have had several barrels what would disagree with you on that. Both of the Colt M4A1 barrels I have had had issues running steel cased ammo. It seemed to be a combination of chamber fouling and weak ammo. My current LMT upper decided this week it would start short stroking with everything, even though no parts had changed. I did discover some noticable carbon fouling in the chamber, which I think was the culprit, since I have been shooting a decent amount of Tula lately. There was also noticeable carbon residue on any cases that were ejected.

While there are plenty of rifles out there that will gladly eat steel cased ammo, not all of them will. In my experience, it tends to be less of an issue in uppers that are either over-gassed or cut with a loose chamber.

Who knows. Maybe my BCMs, DD, Spikes, White Oaks, and LWRC ( well that we know is probably over gassed ) are all over gassed w/ very loose tolerances. I have a friend who only shoots Tula out of his 6720 w/o failure.

You're right, what works for one doesn't work for another.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 while eating a gyro and listening to pop music.

WoodenPlank
11-11-2012, 13:44
Who knows. Maybe my BCMs, DD, Spikes, White Oaks, and LWRC ( well that we know is probably over gassed ) are all over gassed w/ very loose tolerances. I have a friend who only shoots Tula out of his 6720 w/o failure.

You're right, what works for one doesn't work for another.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 while eating a gyro and listening to pop music.


Hence why I said in my experience. I've owned a few different ARs, but nowhere near as many as some folks that post here. I've often joked that I should work in some for of product testing, as Murphy seems to love making my life difficult.

I don't remember how much steel case (if any) I shot through the Rock River upper I used to own. The old Colt Sporter 20" my dad used to have had several thousand rounds of steel case put through it over the years (it was a survivor of the Clinton ban), and it ran like a champ on the stuff.

In the end, you'll never know what your gun runs until you try it. I have a new PSA 16" midlength upper on order, and will be giving Tula and Wolf a try through it, as well.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 14:00
I did sound a little confrontational. Deffinately not my intent. I'm not discounting your words at all, just putting my experience out there as well.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Matthew Courtney
11-11-2012, 15:20
Range use - Federal XM193 and Wolf or Tula 55gr. All of my optics get zeroed with Federal, and I generally plink with cheap crap. If you do this, keep a chamber brush and a good cleaner handy - you'll probably need it. My SBR started short stroking recently, most likely due to a fouled chamber from all the steel case.

HD/SD mags currently loaded with Hornady TAP 75gr 5.56 (8126N), but I'm looking at a switch to Federal TRU T223S 55gr TSX loads. Got a couple boxes for accuracy testing later this week.

What solvent do you find works the best on the red primer sealant?

WoodenPlank
11-11-2012, 19:04
What solvent do you find works the best on the red primer sealant?

Red primer sealant on what, exactly? The only one of those 4 with noticeable sealant is the Federal T223S, and it's blue. I also haven't shot any of it yet.

QNman
11-11-2012, 19:25
Iron sight / red dot / low magnification rounds, I have used Silver Bear. It's cheap, and it feeds just fine through the rifles I feed it to (Generally my more "utility" rifles).

I have been gradually changing over to XM193. More expensive than Silver Bear, but not bad in bulk. The reason for the switch - I hope to start reloading soon.

For longer distance or more precise / more expensive rifles / high twist rate (1:7 or 1:8), I use Mk262 for serious work and precision work. This ammo is expensive (and apparently made of unobtanium), but in a better rifle, I can achieve sub-MOA groups out beyond 100-yards.

KalashniKEV
11-11-2012, 20:05
Prvi, PMC, Aguila, Fiocchi, XM193... but usually never the Russian stuff.

I barely even consider it to be "ammunition."

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 20:51
Prvi, PMC, Aguila, Fiocchi, XM193... but usually never the Russian stuff.

I barely even consider it to be "ammunition."

For certain applications? When, where, why?

cowboy1964
11-11-2012, 22:06
The Russians know how to make ammo.

LL6
11-12-2012, 04:05
I'm curious about the Russian ammo because I've never used any. :dunno:

General points about it from some personal observation at the range from over the years and off the top of my head.

It's cheap but:

dirty, dirty, dirty, dirty
often times corrosive
weak
non-reloadable
steel cased

...and I think it may void the warranty on my rifle, but I will have to pull out the paperwork to verify that.

WoodenPlank
11-12-2012, 09:12
I'm curious about the Russian ammo because I've never used any. :dunno:

General points about it from some personal observation at the range from over the years and off the top of my head.

It's cheap but:

dirty, dirty, dirty, dirty
often times corrosive
weak
non-reloadable
steel cased

...and I think it may void the warranty on my rifle, but I will have to pull out the paperwork to verify that.

It's been a long time since I saw corrosive 5.56 ammo, even Russian made. Hell, all of the current production Wolf , Silver/Brown/Etc Bear and Tula I am aware of (even ComBloc calibers) is non-corrosive.

michael_b
11-12-2012, 10:13
It's a Magpul MIAD grip core modified to hold the cam pin, firing pin retainer, and a BCM bolt.

I like the mod, nice work.

LL6
11-12-2012, 10:25
It's been a long time since I saw corrosive 5.56 ammo, even Russian made. Hell, all of the current production Wolf , Silver/Brown/Etc Bear and Tula I am aware of (even ComBloc calibers) is non-corrosive.
My comments were more in general, but I'm glad to hear corrosive is not an issue with 5.56.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 10:40
My comments were more in general, but I'm glad to hear corrosive is not an issue with 5.56.

If it voids your warranty sell the POS AR and get one from a company that knows their product.

You mean your comments were more in the realm of clueless.

LL6
11-12-2012, 10:45
If it voids your warranty sell the POS AR and get one from a company that knows their product.

You mean your comments were more in the realm of clueless.

eh? Who pee'd in your corn flakes?

Glockdude1
11-12-2012, 10:45
I like XM193. Good for range use as well as self defense ammo.

:agree:

M193 for all around use.

:cool:

WoodenPlank
11-12-2012, 10:51
:agree:

M193 for all around use.

:cool:


There are FAR better choices for HD/SD use than M193. It might work for SHTF ammo (if you're worried about such) since it's cheap and reliable, but there are plenty of things with drastically better performance.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 10:55
eh? Who pee'd in your corn flakes?

I'm a blueberry bagel and honey cream cheese kind-of-a guy.

Even my dumb ass knows when I have no idea and need to shut up and just read/learn. We can learn a lot from each other.

LL6
11-12-2012, 11:03
I'm a blueberry bagel and honey cream cheese kind-of-a guy.

Even my dumb ass knows when I have no idea and need to shut up and just read/learn. We can learn a lot from each other.

I asked a question based on what I have seen (not read, not heard). W.Plank said corrosive didn't apply any longer to 5.56 and I acknowledged. So what's the problem? :dunno:

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 11:13
It was the statement. This has been discussed endlessly. The information is out there. I don't understand how the misconceptions remain other than that people keep making false statements.

LL6
11-12-2012, 11:18
It was the statement. This has been discussed endlessly. The information is out there. I don't understand how the misconceptions remain other than that people keep making false statements.

I'm curious about the Russian ammo because I've never used any. :dunno:

General points about it from some personal observation at the range from over the years and off the top of my head
...

You caught me. Thinking back I did try some bear ammo a number years ago in one of my pistols. It looked like a coal mine so I never used any more.

WoodenPlank
11-12-2012, 11:22
You caught me. Thinking back I did try some bear ammo a number years ago in one of my pistols. It looked like a coal mine so I never used any more.

You didn't know that the Russians just use ground up coal instead of gunpowder?

:whistling:




Yes, I'm kidding.

LL6
11-12-2012, 11:54
You didn't know that the Russians just use ground up coal instead of gunpowder?

:whistling:




Yes, I'm kidding.

No problem, and at the range we used to refer to the east block ammo as "coal mine" ammo so you might be right. :whistling:.

Though I have very little experience shooting east block ammo from my own weapons, I have had the pleasure of cleaning many varieties of rentals from when I worked at a range. That's what I based my observation on and why I asked my question.

My AR experience is from the Army days and I shot what they gave me. I had no love for my weapon other than to keep it clean and functional. I couldn't even tell you if it was ever a Colt.

Since I was an aviator a pistol was my normal issue weapon so there were long gaps without handling an M16. My last experience was because the Army thought a Smith M10 with 18 rounds of .38 Special was sufficient. :shocked: I promptly signed out an M16 from the armsroom, reacquainted myself with it and hung it from the back of my seat in my UH1 during Desert Storm.

Since then I've had sporadic exposure to the platform mostly through friends or relatives who let me shoot theirs.

KalashniKEV
11-12-2012, 12:32
For certain applications? When, where, why?

For training.

For matches I find Prvi to be the most accurate of that bunch.

The mags in my go-to rig are filled with PMC "X-TAC" 62gr green tip. It has performed acceptably for me.

I'm curious about the Russian ammo because I've never used any. :dunno:

weak


I thought I was on to the hottest new thing when running Silver Bear 145gr HPs through my suppressed Glock, AR, and MP5...

It was SUPER QUIET.

Then I quickly realized that it didn't cycle any of the above guns. Then I slowly realized that I could watch the bullet go downrange like a paint ball.

:rofl:

It was a nice reminder of why I am the way I am...

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 12:41
My experience w/ Tula and Wolf out of ARs is above average. It's 90%+ of what I shoot. I rarely clean my firearms. In fact I wiped them down for the first time in 12 months roughly 2-3 weeks ago. The only reason I did that was because the lube I was using (general purpose grease) was getting way to think in the 46 degree weather we expereinced during the last class I took. I wanted to try motor oil. The motor oil is working well so far.

People make a big deal out of things that rarely if ever matter. Things such as "dirty" ammunition. The AR will run and run even when filthy.

A good starting point:
http://youtu.be/P5ZB3UfG960

jokeruh
11-12-2012, 12:56
eh? Who pee'd in your corn flakes?

Don't worry about him.....he always acts like that. He knows no other way

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 12:59
My experience w/ Tula and Wolf out of ARs is above average. It's 90%+ of what I shoot. I rarely clean my firearms. In fact I wiped them down for the first time in 12 months roughly 2-3 weeks ago. The only reason I did that was because the lube I was using (general purpose grease) was getting way to think in the 46 degree weather we expereinced during the last class I took. I wanted to try motor oil. The motor oil is working well so far.

People make a big deal out of things that rarely if ever matter. Things such as "dirty" ammunition. The AR will run and run even when filthy.
l]

Two or our AR's shoot Wolf 55gr FMJ very well. Consistently under 1.25 moa. I cleaned one of them last night and while it had a lot of carbon, it wiped right off.

Privi ammo is another accurate value ammo.

Two of our rifles Do not shoot wolf well at all, so ymmv.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:06
It's been a long time since I saw corrosive 5.56 ammo, even Russian made. Hell, all of the current production Wolf , Silver/Brown/Etc Bear and Tula I am aware of (even ComBloc calibers) is non-corrosive.

One of the bulk surplus ammo suppliers had corrosive ammo in US calibers as recently as 6 months ago. I very nearly bought some because I didn't think it was around any more. I guess everytime the price goes up, some one unearths their stash to bring in some cash.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:10
The Tula you saw at Walmart is what I'm shooting the most of as of late. Before then Wolf Military classic. I have yet to see any adverse side effects from shooting steel cased ammunition. I did shoot XM193 when shooting 3gun at a range that didn't allow steel cased ammunition. Why did they not allow it? Who knows. I shoot my 1/4" AR500 w/ steel cased 55gr FMJ as close as 20 yards and it does nothing more take off the paint. Accuracy is well w/i the range of exceptable as compared to American Eagle and Privi brass cased 55gr.

Steel cased ammo tends to come from countries with limited copper supplies, so the bullet jackets are usually copper washed steel instead of copper. Steel jacketed bullets are hell on targets, target holders, and they spark and create a fire hazard in dry areas. 500 is hardened steel while most target holders are mild steel.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:15
Two or our AR's shoot Wolf 55gr FMJ very well. Consistently under 1.25 moa. I cleaned one of them last night and while it had a lot of carbon, it wiped right off.

Privi ammo is another accurate value ammo.

Two of our rifles Do not shoot wolf well at all, so ymmv.

This has been my experience. Because of commercial variability in gas port size, chamber specs, etc, all ammo of foreign origin should be evaluated on a per-rifle basis. I have had no ill experience with Wolf other than it being dirty. If the rifle is properly and adequately lubricated, they will usually just wipe clean (and if shooting brass as well, a chamber cleaning is necessary). If your gun runs it, buy it.

That being said, I shoot almost exclusively XM193F, as it works universally in my guns.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 13:56
Steel cased ammo tends to come from countries with limited copper supplies, so the bullet jackets are usually copper washed steel instead of copper. Steel jacketed bullets are hell on targets, target holders, and they spark and create a fire hazard in dry areas. 500 is hardened steel while most target holders are mild steel.

Thank you for the great information.

Bi-metal not steel.

I don't mind if it comes from Mars, lol. It isn't hell on any of the steel targets I shoot at. Classes or my own. The only non AR500 steel targets I have ever seen on any range I have shot at are the 55 gal drums we use to simulate walls or tape paper targets to.

I've yet to start any fires. We have had one of our driest/hottest years in a long time.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 14:22
Thank you for the great information.

Bi-metal not steel.

I don't mind if it comes from Mars, lol. It isn't hell on any of the steel targets I shoot at. Classes or my own. The only non AR500 steel targets I have ever seen on any range I have shot at are the 55 gal drums we use to simulate walls or tape paper targets to.

I've yet to start any fires. We have had one of our driest/hottest years in a long time.

It takes a decent rock for a good spark, and I have never seen a fire started from them, but supposedly some huge wildfires a few years back were caused by such. I do not limit ammo on my outdoor range or shoot house and I am skeptical of those that ban one type and overprice another type.

I have seen the mild steel targets at my cowboy action club torn to bits, but any .223 round goes tears up mild 1/4 inch steel.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 14:39
I've never seen it but supposedly.....


We shouldn't make the claim that they spark and create fire hazards.

If we all would get on the "only speak from first hand experience" bandwagon most of the back and forth would disappear.

Cowboy shooting would be fun. I had a 1873 Uberti replica but 45 LC was to expensive to shoot a lot. I couldnt see keeping it around for 50-100 rounds a month.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 14:53
I've never seen it but supposedly.....


We shouldn't make the claim that they spark and create fire hazards.

If we all would get on the "only speak from first hand experience" bandwagon most of the back and forth would disappear.

Cowboy shooting would be fun. I had a 1873 Uberti replica but 45 LC was to expensive to shoot a lot. I couldnt see keeping it around for 50-100 rounds a month.

I have seen the sparks, and I live in Louisiana where it is hard to light the grass on fire using gasoline and a match. The word of state fire marshals offices is good enough for me when it comes to what causes fires. I have never seen anyone killed with a 5.56, either, but I can apply what I have seen to know enough to believe the forensic scientists and ballistics experts.

Also, bimetal jackets are copper plated steel jackets.

But it would make an interesting test.... Myth Busters style.....
Take a box, fill it with rocks and tinder, shoot a hundred times. If the box catches fire, confirmed. If the tinder burns, but does't light the box.... Plausible. If the tinder does not ignite, BUSTED.

Warp
11-12-2012, 15:03
For most shooting...any of the M193 options or PMC Bronze .223, depending on price and availability.

Glockdude1
11-12-2012, 15:34
There are FAR better choices for HD/SD use than M193. It might work for SHTF ammo (if you're worried about such) since it's cheap and reliable, but there are plenty of things with drastically better performance.

The fruit, watermelons, cantaloupes, and paper targets, don't notice any difference.

:supergrin:

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 15:49
There are FAR better choices for HD/SD use than M193. It might work for SHTF ammo (if you're worried about such) since it's cheap and reliable, but there are plenty of things with drastically better performance.

I would say that there are things with measurably better performance, or even significantly better performance, but drastically better than m193? Plenty of things drastically better?

WoodenPlank
11-12-2012, 16:01
I would say that there are things with measurably better performance, or even significantly better performance, but drastically better than m193? Plenty of things drastically better?

Yep. Just my opinion, mind you. TAP T2, Mk. 262, most any TSX load, several of the soft point loads, and probably Mk. 318 would make my list.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 16:22
Yep. Just my opinion, mind you. TAP T2, Mk. 262, most any TSX load, several of the soft point loads, and probably Mk. 318 would make my list.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

TSX and M855A1 may be drastically better than m193, and TAP T2, mk. 262, mk. 318, and the bonded JSP's like the Speer 63 gr are significantly better than 193. At the same time, some versions of m193 like Winchester q3131 are amazingly consistent when compared to some of the other m193 out there. The korean and european 193 projectiles seem to yaw with less consistently and the Israeli stuff is rather good.

In the Winchester loadings, q3131 is US Made, q3131a is Israeli, and q3131a1 is Korean, IIRC.

So I guess your statement is a fair one regarding m193 generally, because inconsistency abounds. At the same time, there is plenty of good m193 out there.

FireForged
11-12-2012, 16:35
IMI m193

WoodenPlank
11-12-2012, 16:41
TSX and M855A1 may be drastically better than m193, and TAP T2, mk. 262, mk. 318, and the bonded JSP's like the Speer 63 gr are significantly better than 193. At the same time, some versions of m193 like Winchester q3131 are amazingly consistent when compared to some of the other m193 out there. The korean and european 193 projectiles seem to yaw with less consistently and the Israeli stuff is rather good.

In the Winchester loadings, q3131 is US Made, q3131a is Israeli, and q3131a1 is Korean, IIRC.

So I guess your statement is a fair one regarding m193 generally, because inconsistency abounds. At the same time, there is plenty of good m193 out there.

It's the inconsistency of M855 and M193 that can drive me nuts.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 16:52
It's the inconsistency of M855 and M193 that can drive me nuts.

The folks who test it tell me that Federal AE223 breaks at the cannelure and fragments with boring reliability, despite being slower than m193. We bought a "few" thousand rounds for clients to shoot in classes, but we rotate by date and have not shot any yet. At some point I may test things in the ammo stash and reprioritize the rotation to shoot the least effective stuff in training and save the most effective for .... The future.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 19:50
I have seen the sparks, and I live in Louisiana where it is hard to light the grass on fire using gasoline and a match. The word of state fire marshals offices is good enough for me when it comes to what causes fires. I have never seen anyone killed with a 5.56, either, but I can apply what I have seen to know enough to believe the forensic scientists and ballistics experts.

Also, bimetal jackets are copper plated steel jackets.

But it would make an interesting test.... Myth Busters style.....
Take a box, fill it with rocks and tinder, shoot a hundred times. If the box catches fire, confirmed. If the tinder burns, but does't light the box.... Plausible. If the tinder does not ignite, BUSTED.

Good point. Thank you for the heads up on the jackets. I honestly did not know that.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 20:10
Good point. Thank you for the heads up on the jackets. I honestly did not know that.

There are enough knuckle headed range rats spewing a sufficient quantity of unsupported shi'ite, along with a plethora of pea brained range owners pouting pliantly for profits to make a healthy dose of skepticism not merely understandable, but recommended.

I actually researched rocks to see what would be required for a mythbusters type test and we need rocks that are harder than south Louisiana sandstone and limestone. Anybody live where the rocks have a high quartz content want to help with a test?

boomhower
11-12-2012, 20:19
sTula is fine as long as you understand what your getting. I've shot it without issue and if supply is tight or brass goes through the roof I'd shoot more but with current prices I'll stick with brass.

I shoot a variety of federal. Mainly 193 but prefer Federal black box tactical when I find a deal on it. If I'm in a bind and Walmart has it in stock the 100 round Federal packs there. Long story short, I like Federal and LC.

That's all range ammo. Duty ammo is issued Federal 55gr SP TRU. (The black box stuff is the ballistic equivalent so that is why I like shooting it.)

Warp
11-12-2012, 20:42
At the Appleseed I attended this weekend we had five ARs in a row down at the end of the line. There was some TulAmmo...and in more than one rifle there was a failure to extract where the spent case stuck in the chamber.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 21:13
At the Appleseed I attended this weekend we had five ARs in a row down at the end of the line. There was some TulAmmo...and in more than one rifle there was a failure to extract where the spent case stuck in the chamber.

Not an issue caused by the ammunition.I would like to see chamber measurements.

Warp
11-12-2012, 21:18
Not an issue caused by the ammunition.I would like to see chamber measurements.

It seems to happen with (or after) steel case a LOT more often than brass.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 21:28
Because of the reason I eluded to which is not the fault of the ammunition. The ammunition just exposes the issue.

Warp
11-12-2012, 21:37
Because of the reason I eluded to which is not the fault of the ammunition. The ammunition just exposes the issue.

I've read a good bit written by a lot of people that say otherwise.

Steel doesn't expand and contract the way that brass does, which is the primary cause of the issue.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 21:55
The Tula issues are widespread, frequent, and occur to rifles without prejudice for brand. For that to be the case, it almost has to be a tolerence stacking issue causing incompatibility between some of the ammo and some rifles. Some lots will shoot all day and all night long in some rifles. At the same time, some rifles won't run more then a few mags through them. We saw some tolerance stacking issues a few years ago with a run of S&W 642's and a lot of Remington .38 special ammo. Those 642's ran with any other .38 special ammo, and that Remington ammo worked in other .38 specials. The fact that steel expands less than brass means that the steel cased ammo needs to hit a smaller tolerence window in order to achieve the same reliability with a broad selection of chambers.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 22:39
I've read a good bit written by a lot of people that say otherwise.

Steel doesn't expand and contract the way that brass does, which is the primary cause of the issue.

Exactly, it doesn't expand or contract like brass. When in an undersized/tight chamber it gets stuck. In a spec chamber you won't see this problem.

It is my experience that it does not happen w/o prejudice. DPMS and Bushmaster are the 2 brands that stand out. As far as widespread and frequent that simply isn't true at all.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 22:53
Exactly, it doesn't expand or contract like brass. When in an undersized/tight chamber it gets stuck. In a spec chamber you won't see this problem.

It is my experience that it does not happen w/o prejudice. DPMS and Bushmaster are the 2 brands that stand out. As far as widespread and frequent that simply isn't true at all.

So DPMS and Bushmaster stand out? That could not possibly be because they are, by far, the most common brands of AR rifles in private hands?

Warp
11-12-2012, 22:54
BTW: Neither of the rifles that had TulAmmo stick in their chambers yesterday were DPMS or Bushmaster.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 23:09
Heck, I like Tula so much that I bought 8000 rounds of it earlier this year, but is has issues in some rifles. 855 has issues in some rifles, too. With as many rifle and as many ammo makers that we have, it would be crazy to expect no incompatibility issues.

M&P15T
11-13-2012, 03:18
So, we're all agreed then.

The issue with steel cased ammo is two-fold:

A. The steel cases don't expand, allowing more gases back into the chamer area.

B. Those gases are truly filthy, because of the crapola powder they use, getting the chamber areas really filthy.

And yet, people still think "it's not the ammunition" when otherwise reliable ARs start failing to extract with it.:rofl::rofl:

Travclem
11-13-2012, 04:47
Exactly, it doesn't expand or contract like brass. When in an undersized/tight chamber it gets stuck. In a spec chamber you won't see this problem.

It is my experience that it does not happen w/o prejudice. DPMS and Bushmaster are the 2 brands that stand out. As far as widespread and frequent that simply isn't true at all.
I'd venture a guess that the low quality ammo is the more likely culprit for being out of spec. Even with a spec or oversized chamber the issue will still arise as the garbage builds up in the chamber, it will just take longer.

QNman
11-13-2012, 06:02
So, we're all agreed then.

The issue with steel cased ammo is two-fold:

A. The steel cases don't expand, allowing more gases back into the chamer area.

B. Those gases are truly filthy, because of the crapola powder they use, getting the chamber areas really filthy.

And yet, people still think "it's not the ammunition" when otherwise reliable ARs start failing to extract with it.:rofl::rofl:

I had not considered the first one... Interesting.

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 08:20
Strange because I have a sample of 10 ARs from 9 different manufacturers deep into the thousands. Classes, range, plinking, 3Gun... Guess what? Never a stuck case. No cleaning or maintenance. Please explain.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one of my shooting buddies. He runs a Colt 6720 and only shoots Tula. No issues ever. Please explain.

The guy who shows up at classes w/ the Bushmaster that shoots steel cased has isuues constantly at every class I've been in w/ him. All but 1or 2 DPMS ARs and the only KelTec 5.56 I've seen come through have had a stuck case. Please explain.

Travclem
11-13-2012, 08:30
Strange because I have a sample of 10 ARs from 9 different manufacturers deep into the thousands. Classes, range, plinking, 3Gun... Guess what? Never a stuck case. No cleaning or maintenance. Please explain.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one of my shooting buddies. He runs a Colt 6720 and only shoots Tula. No issues ever. Please explain.

The guy who shows up at classes w/ the Bushmaster that shoots steel cased has isuues constantly at every class I've been in w/ him. All but 1or 2 DPMS ARs and the only KelTec 5.56 I've seen come through have had a stuck case. Please explain.
I can't explain your experience, only my own. I don't shoot s****y ammo so I was only speculating that there is a higher chance of low quality commie ammo being out of spec than an American made rifle chamber. Calm down, take a breath. Do you work for the ruskie ammo company or something?

It's weird how you bash people for owning non Colt/BCM/LMT rifles but you shoot the absolute crappiest ammo on the market and are very defensive of it. I'm with you on the gear but I like quality ammo too. How is your statement here any different than someone in another thread saying they have a Bushmaster/DPMS that works 100% 0f the time? You seem to get pretty worked up about "sub par" guns. but in fact there are some that work 100% of the time. Same concept here, You have good luck with sub par ammo.

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 08:41
I can't explain your experience, only my own. I don't shoot s****y ammo so I was only speculating that there is a higher chance of low quality commie ammo being out of spec than an American made rifle chamber. Calm down, take a breath. Do you work for the ruskie ammo company or something?

And you're wrong. And the worst part is you're admittingly speaking on something you have no experience w/.

Send a reamer down 20 different chambers. I bet the majority of them are tight.

It's the fact that people, yourself included, are speaking on a subject the know nothing about. People in general do not shoot nearly enough. One reason is the cost of ammunition. Steel cased ammunition would allow them to do so making them better shooters. The bad information being spread here is misleading and wrong.

Let's know what we're talking about or at least have first hand experience before spreading incorrect information.

It's annoying to the point I want to avoid the site al together but then feel bad for the people who would believe this type of BS if there wasn't anyone to refute it w/ actual hands on experience.

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 08:49
...It's weird how you bash people for owning non Colt/BCM/LMT rifles but you shoot the absolute crappiest ammo on the market and are very defensive of it. I'm with you on the gear but I like quality ammo too. How is your statement here any different than someone in another thread saying they have a Bushmaster/DPMS that works 100% 0f the time? You seem to get pretty worked up about "sub par" guns. but in fact there are some that work 100% of the time. Same concept here, You have good luck with sub par ammo.

Since you edited your post after I submitted my reply:

I don't "bash" people for owning low quality gear. It's when the start spreading the "just as good" stuff when they shoot such a small amount that they would have no idea.

Same goes w/ the claims of 100% when the AR has seen such a low amount of use.

It's all about the spread of bad information based on little to no experience. That simple.

Travclem
11-13-2012, 08:53
And you're wrong. And the worst part is you're admittingly speaking on something you have no experience w/.

Send a reamer down 20 different chambers. I bet the majority of them are tight.

It's the fact that people, yourself included, are speaking on a subject the know nothing about. People in general do not shoot nearly enough. One reason is the cost of ammunition. Steel cased ammunition would allow them to do so making them better shooters. The bad information being spread here is misleading and wrong.

Let's know what we're talking about or at least have first hand experience before spreading incorrect information.

It's annoying to the point I want to avoid the site al together but then feel bad for the people who would believe this type of BS if there wasn't anyone to refute it w/ actual hands on experience.


Perhaps you should read back of my experiences with steel cased ammo earlier in the thread. I have experience with it, I just no longer shoot it. I'd be interested to see your research data on chamber dimensions. You are speculating just as much as I am. Again, I don't shoot steel but I don't tell people not too either. You have to do what works for you. As much as you hate to admit it, your opinion is just like everyone else's, another opinion online.

Travclem
11-13-2012, 08:57
Since you edited your post after I submitted my reply:

I don't "bash" people for owning low quality gear. It's when the start spreading the "just as good" stuff when they shoot such a small amount that they would have no idea.

Same goes w/ the claims of 100% when the AR has seen such a low amount of use.

It's all about the spread of bad information based on little to no experience. That simple.
In that case their guns are "just as good" for their purposes, though, maybe not for yours or mine. If you only shoot 1k/year at beer cans and rocks, a DPMS with work fantastically for you, just as good as an LMT. It's all about perspective. On the flipside you are saying that steel cased ammo is just as good as Brass cased American ammo. It's simply not consistent, run some over a chrony, but for your purposes it may be just as good.

I agree with you on a lot of things but most of the time you come across as an arrogant ass. You provide a lot of good info here but your attitude sucks.

jokeruh
11-13-2012, 09:24
... most of the time you come across as an arrogant ass....your attitude sucks.

This is certainly a fact with which no one would disagree



Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

M&P15T
11-13-2012, 09:31
Send a reamer down 20 different chambers. I bet the majority of them are tight.

Pure speculation, pure guesstimating.

The hypocracy is simply laughable.

If crappy ammo works well in your ARs, good for you. It doesn't in many other people's ARs. This is not open for debate, nor anything you need to comment on, it's just simple facts.

Everyone just has to see if it works for them. And if it doesn't, that does not mean that there is something wrong with their AR.

glock031
11-13-2012, 10:07
This is certainly a fact with which no one would disagree



Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

+1000000000

micro credentials

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 10:28
Perhaps you should read back of my experiences with steel cased ammo earlier in the thread. I have experience with it, I just no longer shoot it. I'd be interested to see your research data on chamber dimensions. You are speculating just as much as I am. Again, I don't shoot steel but I don't tell people not too either. You have to do what works for you. As much as you hate to admit it, your opinion is just like everyone else's, another opinion online.

I don't shoot s****y ammo so I was only speculating...


So which is it? Seems like you can't make up your mind.

In that case their guns are "just as good" for their purposes, though, maybe not for yours or mine. If you only shoot 1k/year at beer cans and rocks, a DPMS with work fantastically for you, just as good as an LMT. It's all about perspective. On the flipside you are saying that steel cased ammo is just as good as Brass cased American ammo. It's simply not consistent, run some over a chrony, but for your purposes it may be just as good.

I agree with you on a lot of things but most of the time you come across as an arrogant ass. You provide a lot of good info here but your attitude sucks.

When learning I could care less how the data is presented. The important part is that the information is correct. I'm not one for candy coating and holding hands. We're men here. Correct?

Just as good for a purpose is very different than "just as good."

I'm not saying steel is just as good as brass cased ammunition. What I am saying is it is not what people who don't shoot it make it out to be. The issues people talk about are of the past or firearm related. If it was ammunition related the issues would be found in all firearms.

You keep on bringing up America vs. _____. It has nothing to do w/ that. I'm a patriot to the bone. I put my edjucation/life on hold after 9-11-01 to be an Infantry Man for no other reason than to take the lifes of those responsable. I fly The Flag and teach my son national pride.

Pure speculation, pure guesstimating.

The hypocracy is simply laughable.

If crappy ammo works well in your ARs, good for you. It doesn't in many other people's ARs. This is not open for debate, nor anything you need to comment on, it's just simple facts.

Everyone just has to see if it works for them. And if it doesn't, that does not mean that there is something wrong with their AR.

Because w/ all your experience and know-how you are the authority. You're the 1k a year, no training, no first hand experience type Travclem is talking about.

M&P15T
11-13-2012, 10:34
Because w/ all your experience and know-how you are the authority. You're the 1k a year, no training, no first hand experience type Travclem is talking about.

I like your attempted miss-direction by attacking me, acting as if I have passed myself off as an expert or something. You're acting like a hypocrite, doing exactly that which you consider yourself to be the "BRF Cop" about.

You threw out a B.S. generalization, and tried to pass it off as fact.

Anyways, this topic has been beaten like a rented mule for several years now. Nothing in this thread is new or interesting.

Travclem
11-13-2012, 10:42
So which is it? Seems like you can't make up your mind.
Re read the post you quoted, I have shot plenty of it, I just no longer do.


When learning I could care less how the data is presented. The important part is that the information is correct. I'm not one for candy coating and holding hands. We're men here. Correct?

Just as good for a purpose is very different than "just as good."
I agree but you have to look at the context of the conversation. Most of these guys are saying that it is just as good for their purpose, not just as good.

I'm not saying steel is just as good as brass cased ammunition. What I am saying is it is not what people who don't shoot it make it out to be. The issues people talk about are of the past or firearm related. If it was ammunition related the issues would be found in all firearms.

If it were strictly firearms related, it would happen with all ammo. Same concept. Not all ammo works with all guns and Vice Versa.

You keep on bringing up America vs. _____. It has nothing to do w/ that. I'm a patriot to the bone. I put my edjucation/life on hold after 9-11-01 to be an Infantry Man for no other reason than to take the lifes of those responsable. I fly The Flag and teach my son national pride.

I am not questioning your patriotism, not in the least. I am simply saying that the U.S. companies have better QC(for the most part) than combloc companies.

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 10:45
I like your attempted miss-direction by attacking me, acting as if I have passed myself off as an expert or something. You're acting like a hypocrite, doing exactly that which you consider yourself to be the "BRF Cop" about.

You threw out a B.S. generalization, and tried to pass it off as fact.

Anyways, this topic has been beaten like a rented mule for several years now. Nothing in this thread is new or interesting.

It wasn't an attack. You made statements you havent knowledge of experience to make. You haven't a clue of what we are talking about yet you jump into the conversation as if you do. This is the problem.

____________________________

Anyway. The information is out there. If it was the ammunition every AR would have issues w/ it. I have had 10 different ARs from 9 different manufacturers that ran Tula and Wolf w/o issue in all types of setting. Classes, plinking, practice/training, and so on.

wwcadre
11-13-2012, 10:50
I always use XM193 myself.

M&P15T
11-13-2012, 11:03
It wasn't an attack. You made statements you havent knowledge of experience to make. You haven't a clue of what we are talking about yet you jump into the conversation as if you do. This is the problem.

____________________________

Anyway. The information is out there. If it was the ammunition every AR would have issues w/ it. I have had 10 different ARs from 9 different manufacturers that ran Tula and Wolf w/o issue in all types of setting. Classes, plinking, practice/training, and so on.

WTF are you talking about? What statements are you referring to?

Let me explain this to you one more time. This topic has been beaten to death over the last several years. Nothing you or anyone else is saying is new or different.

And, most importantly, your experiences are your experiences. Nothing more, nothing less. Other people (including myself) have had very different experiences with steel cased combloc ammo. Some firearms run fine on them, others do not.....and DI ARs seem particularly finicky with it.

For you to suggest that there is something wrong with every AR that can't run comblock steel ammo is simply laughable.......and completely hypocritical considering how you rail on others that throw-out generalizations.

Chuck TX
11-13-2012, 12:32
Mostly XM193 and M855. Whatever has a good deal on it and decent enough brass. I don't bother with steel cased ammo since I can't reload it. Unless it's a hell of a deal.

mjkeat
11-13-2012, 15:34
Never mind... Have at it.

There will be some clarification here in a few weeks. A story is currently in the works regarding this issue. It should be good.