Bought a Lower, Now I Need An Upper [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Pete7072
11-10-2012, 20:57
I did a little shopping for myself over the past couple of days... I purchased a complete Gen II New Frontier lower, for plinking and range fun. I also bought a stripped Palmetto lower to do a little more serious build on. Anyway.. Looking for an upper. Found a couple of websites with cheap uppers ( oracles and Del-Ton ). MY experience with AR-15s have been in LE/Military only, what they gave us, we used. Now, going out and spending $600 + on an upper right now is not really an option. Looking for a good, reliable upper. Any Tips ?

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 21:17
I would not own a Del-Ton; never heard of Oracle. Just goin' off what I've heard/read.

Then again, I'm considred somewhat of a wildcard, sometimes...

I'm sure the BCM crowd will be in soon enough to chime in. :whistling:

Cole125
11-10-2012, 21:18
Save up and get a BCM upper, and thank me later.

LA_357SIG
11-10-2012, 21:31
I would not own a Del-Ton; never heard of Oracle. Just goin' off what I've heard/read.

Then again, I'm considred somewhat of a wildcard, sometimes...

I'm sure the BCM crowd will be in soon enough to chime in. :whistling:

Seems like they have heard of "the chart.":upeyes:

We've found there's a little bit of misconception about our products. People think because we haven't raised our prices, then we're not doing the "upgrades". Well, we'd like to let everyone know that we've upgraded our standards!! These are the things we are now doing to EVERY rifle (or associated part) that leaves here....

- All flat tops have the extended M4 feed ramps
- All bolts are MP/HP tested
- If you order an upper or rifle with a flat top, it will have an F Marked front sight base
- Our carriers are properly staked, and sealed
- All barrels are parkarized under the gas block
- We only use taper pins on our barrels
- All barrels are made of Chrome Moly Vanadium. CMV is an upgrade from the standard chrome moly. We also have the option to chrome line the barrels, or not, and you can chose a 1x7 twist or a 1x9 twist on most profiles.
We offer all of these options to you, as the consumer, so you can chose what you'd like. We don't tell you the options, we let you decide exactly what you'd like.
- As always, each and every upper or rifle that leaves here has been test fired, not a single one leaves the place without having that done

Hopefully this clears things up a little. Please let us know if you ever have any questions!

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 21:40
Thanks for the rollyeyes, smartass.

I wasn't aware of the upgrades. (Yet I've yet to read raving reviews.)

An education is nice. A smartass post is not. Implied sarcasm can be fun, too; that one, I don't mind.

LA_357SIG
11-10-2012, 21:54
Thanks for the rollyeyes, smartass.

I wasn't aware of the upgrades. (Yet I've yet to read raving reviews.)

An education is nice. A smartass post is not. Implied sarcasm can be fun, too; that one, I don't mind.

Neither is a post inspired by ignorance and second hand information.

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 22:02
Neither is a post inspired by ignorance and second hand information.

Will you show me a picture of YOUR Del-Ton upper along with a butter knife and a roll of toilet paper? Or, if you get the newspaper, I reckon a picture of it will suffice, too.

I wanna see a nice, recent build to demonstrate your first-hand experience. :whistling:

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 22:09
Oracle is DPMS. I would put DelTon in the same class as the Oracle.

I wouldn't mess w/ either although I've heard DPMS is good for 19 flawless rounds into the dirt. That does have some merit. Very intriguing indeed.

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 22:19
Oracle is DPMS. I would put DelTon in the same class as the Oracle.

I wouldn't mess w/ either although I've heard DPMS is good for 19 flawless rounds into the dirt. That does have some merit. Very intriguing indeed.

LOL. I like trading jabs.

FWIW, the upper I have seems to be an older DPMS; not too sure how perceived quality may have lessened/gained over the years...

I'm looking VERY FORWARD to shooting it more (and at targets) so I can prove a point.

Oh...funny thing is -- I just looked: I own an upper made by BCM. Reckon I can consider myself one of the cool kids, now. Funny thing is -- nothing about it has ever made me post raving reviews. Go figure.

Pete7072
11-10-2012, 22:33
Yeah, I was going to try to stay away from DPMS and Del-ton.... Just looking more for a price worthy decent upper. If I wanted to spend $1000 + I would've bought an entire rifle.

Pete7072
11-10-2012, 22:36
Was considering Palmetto State Armory uppers.I've seen are good, but the one's I've seen are stripped barreled receivers, kind of defeats the point.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 22:39
I don't like trading jabs as you put it. I like leaving behind good factual information so others can be better informed.

What does name have to do w/ anything?

I know, my BCMs are kinda boring as well. So solid they are boring. But then again I'd start an entire thread to praise my DPMS for completing 19 rounds flawlessly.

If it works for you, great. Inexpensive is fun no doubt. But starting a thread to praise your 19 round DPMS while trying to slander a well trusted name like BCM says a lot about you.

Nothing personal but why is it that the most knowledgeable guy has under 1k posts yet the guys putting out the most BS are in the tens of thousands?

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 22:44
What does name have to do w/ anything?

I know, my BCMs are kinda boring as well. So solid they are boring. But then again I'd start an entire thread to praise my DPMS for completing 19 rounds flawlessly.

If it works for you, great. Inexpensive is fun no doubt. But starting a thread to praise your 19 round DPMS while trying to slander a well trusted name like BCM says a lot about you.

Nothing personal but why is it that the most knowledgeable guy has under 1k posts yet the guys putting out the most BS are in the tens of thousands?

Oh...how I love to prove people wrong. Mind if I bring this thread up in a year from now?

Ignorance really is bliss, isn't it?

Dude, I've probably been shooting/owning/building ARs/M16s since your pre-pubescent stage of life.

And, thanks for the quote. It'll make me even more viable in the upcoming months.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 22:50
Oh...how I love to prove people wrong. Mind if I bring this thread up in a year from now?

Ignorance really is bliss, isn't it?

Dude, I've probably been shooting/owning/building ARs/M16s since your pre-pubescent stage of life.

And, thanks for the quote. It'll make me even more viable in the upcoming months.

Dude, time behind the trigger means nothing nor does ownership. And as far as building ARs/M16s I would be willing to bet my house you have never built either. Maybe assembled but never build a complete AR/M16. Ooops. I guess it really is bliss. Isn't it?

USMCsilver
11-10-2012, 22:58
Oh...Dear...Lord...

You are one of those, aren't you?

Sorry, I have not built M16s, I have shot more than I care to lay claim to. I have owned nearly 2 dozen rifles, and have assembled nearly 1/2 that. I don't care to get in a pissing contest here. I state my findings and nothing else; I simply stated I was impressed a rifle worked with a cheap upper and a BCG that would barely move if manipulated by hand... That was all. And here you are, being a total jackass, and blowing it all out of proportion.

I love fanboys. They make such easy targets.

(Ooooh -- that sounded excellent. Maybe I should turn that into a new sig line and reference you?)

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 23:08
Fanboy? I'm curious as to how you came to that assumption not knowing a thing other than I own 2 BCM's. You have no idea of what other ARs I own or have owned.

By "one of those" do you mean I'm factual?

I'm not being anything. I simply stated fact. It just so happens that the facts undermine your claim to fame. Time of ownership and rounds down range mean nothing. I am quite familiar w/ this as I'm faced w/ it weekly if not daily.

Nothing personal, lets just keep things on track and factual.

bmoore
11-10-2012, 23:15
OP- there are a few guys at work that have Del-ton rifles, they bought the entire kit. They seem to fine for what the guys use them for (shooting 80 rounds 3 times a year). I am not saying that in an A hole way.

Here is the issue/something to think about. The price point is just not that much of a difference to justify it, you get a lot more for your money jumping to BCM. I say BCM because it is the brand that you probably get the absolute most for your money. Trust me, I struggled with this concept too. If you came up on a used Delton or DPMS for a bargain then yeah jump on it. But if I am shelling out 5 bills for a Delton or DPMS complete upper why not just spend 100 more dollars and get a standard BCM upper with a BCM bolt carrier group?

LA_357SIG
11-10-2012, 23:23
ETA2: Just noticed the butterknife and toilet paper line.What I have already on photobucket will suffice.
Will you show me a picture of YOUR Del-Ton upper along with a butter knife and a roll of toilet paper? Or, if you get the newspaper, I reckon a picture of it will suffice, too.

I wanna see a nice, recent build to demonstrate your first-hand experience. :whistling:

No problem.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/chrisq_01/100_2561.jpg
Delton 7.62x39mm CMV Barrel assembly and upper receiver. SI Defense 7.62x39mm bolt. Osprey Defense Piston kit. Bushmaster 6.8SPC lower. DSA "milspec diameter" receiver extension. Magpul MOE stock. Aimpoint T-1/ADM mount. AAC 51T Blackout and 762-SD suppressor. ETA: I assembled the entire upper from separate parts myself.

I have not had one FTE despite shooting Wolf, Yugo Surplus and Winchester brass. I have had FTF before filing feedramp extensions on the rifle receiver and tuning C-Products and ASC magazines.

Pete7072
11-10-2012, 23:36
Alright, after reading through that "DOGS" thread, I want to stay a little on track here. I realize that this is definitely an open ended question....The truth is, I've had FTF's and jams on Colt LE M4s after 500 to 600 rounds. Would you put your life on it ? I have before... just looking for decent reliability, and if there's some products that are affordable and people with experience. Want to keep in the $500-$600 range on a complete AR.

bmoore
11-10-2012, 23:38
Alright, after reading through that "DOGS" thread, I want to stay a little on track here. I realize that this is definitely an open ended question....The truth is, I've had FTF's and jams on Colt LE M4s after 500 to 600 rounds. Would you put your life on it ? I have before... just looking for decent reliability, and if there's some products that are affordable and people with experience. Want to keep in the $500-$600 range on a complete AR.

I am confused. You bought 2 lowers, one of which is complete and the other is stripped. And your looking for a complete rifle for 500-600 bucks? Whats your plan with the lowers?

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 23:40
I am confused. You bought 2 lowers, one of which is complete and the other is stripped. And your looking for a complete rifle for 500-600 bucks? Whats your plan with the lowers?

It started out as looking for a complete upper.

bmoore
11-10-2012, 23:42
It started out as looking for a complete upper.

That's what I had thought.:dunno: My first post was geared toward that. Post #17

Pete7072
11-10-2012, 23:47
I am confused. You bought 2 lowers, one of which is complete and the other is stripped. And your looking for a complete rifle for 500-600 bucks? Whats your plan with the lowers?

The stripped lower I'm going to build over time. Piece by piece. I know what I want to do with that system. The complete lower, I will be shooting a good amount of rounds through, most likely 2000-3000 rounds a year. My main question would be, Is there an upper out there, that I could use on the complete lower that won't cause me to completely waste money. I would hate to spend $400 on an upper, just to get a million problems, and realize that if I would have spent a little more, I would have had better reliability, and less headaches.

Like I said before, I can build them, and shoot them, but my experience with different weapons systems is limited. I have trained and used the Colt M16 and Colt LE M4. We just got the new HK416, which I love, just don't have a couple grand to spill out on one.

mjkeat
11-10-2012, 23:52
That round count really isn't that high. Well it might be if ammunition gets harder to find and more expensive. Look into Palmetto but be prepared to wait and possibly get the wrong item the first or second go around. You could spend slightly more and have piece of mind.

LA_357SIG
11-11-2012, 00:01
OP- there are a few guys at work that have Del-ton rifles, they bought the entire kit. They seem to fine for what the guys use them for (shooting 80 rounds 3 times a year). I am not saying that in an A hole way.

Here is the issue/something to think about. The price point is just not that much of a difference to justify it, you get a lot more for your money jumping to BCM. I say BCM because it is the brand that you probably get the absolute most for your money. Trust me, I struggled with this concept too. If you came up on a used Delton or DPMS for a bargain then yeah jump on it. But if I am shelling out 5 bills for a Delton or DPMS complete upper why not just spend 100 more dollars and get a standard BCM upper with a BCM bolt carrier group?

How so?

A Del-Ton 16" M4 with 1/7 CMV chrome lined batch MPT/HP tested barrel, F Marked FSB, single shield handguard, charging handle and MPT/HP BCG is $460 before shipping.

A BCM 16" M4 1/7 11595-E chrome lined individually MPI/HP tested barrel, HG, CH, MPT/HP BCG, double shield handguard is $680

The $220 difference gets you a 11595-E spec and individually inspected barrel?

Not praising Del-Ton, but not seeing the value/money.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 00:11
LA 357, what you mention is just part of the equation. CS, QC, has to be figured in. As we all know anyone can assemble an AR though assembling it correctly can be a task. How about weight times? Getting the product in a timely manner is important.

LA_357SIG
11-11-2012, 00:30
LA 357, what you mention is just part of the equation. CS, QC, has to be figured in. As we all know anyone can assemble an AR though assembling it correctly can be a task. How about weight times? Getting the product in a timely manner is important.

But if I am shelling out 5 bills for a Delton or DPMS complete upper why not just spend 100 more dollars and get a standard BCM upper with a BCM bolt carrier group?

Your statement is irrelevant. The BCM upper is not 100 dollars more than a Del-Ton. It is $220 more. The Del-Ton is not "5 bills." Instead of bringing up (for lack of a better description) anomalies that do not address my comments that you quote, try disputing what I say directly. Bringing up extraneous and trivial matter that helps promote your agenda, while side tracking the posts you quote, really makes you seem desperate for attention and frankly speaking, in bad taste.

bmoore
11-11-2012, 00:40
Delete.

LA_357SIG
11-11-2012, 00:50
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm


439+160= 599 That is a complete upper. factor in 15 or 20 dollars for shipping. I am not going to argue how BCM is a better value than Delton, just not going to do it. Its like telling my son he can't have cookies for dinner over and over. You are correct LA357SIG, Delton is the same as BCM, hundreds of thousands of AR shooters over paid drastically.

No. A barreled upper and bolt carrier is not a complete upper. Nor does $599 equal "5 bills." You still lack a charging handle and handguards. You claim you are not arguing how BCM is a better value than Del-Ton, but your sarcastic accusation that I am means what? "Not praising Del-Ton, but not seeing the value/money." Seems to suggest that I am not implying that they are equal. $220 seems a lot of money for barrel steel, individual MPT/HP testing and double heat shield handguards.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 00:51
Your statement is irrelevant. The BCM upper is not 100 dollars more than a Del-Ton. It is $220 more. The Del-Ton is not "5 bills." Instead of bringing up (for lack of a better description) anomalies that do not address my comments that you quote, try disputing what I say directly. Bringing up extraneous and trivial matter that helps promote your agenda, while side tracking the posts you quote, really makes you seem desperate for attention and frankly speaking, in bad taste.

You stated that all you get is individual testing and better steel (your post at 00:01). I stated that there is much more to it than those two items alone. I then listed the additional items the extra $ includes. It is very relevant.

My only agenda is to help inform.

LA_357SIG
11-11-2012, 01:07
You stated that all you get is individual testing and better steel (your post at 00:01). I stated that there is much more to it than those two items alone. I then listed the additional items the extra $ includes. It is very relevant.

My only agenda is to help inform.

Wait. So comparing prices goes beyond items that have a stock number? Give me a break.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 01:17
Wait. So comparing prices goes beyond items that have a stock number? Give me a break.

So QC and CS as well as shipping time mean? How about piece of mind? Do those things not require more hands on deck thus raising overhead?

bmoore
11-11-2012, 01:22
No. A barreled upper and bolt carrier is not a complete upper. Nor does $599 equal "5 bills." You still lack a charging handle and handguards. You claim you are not arguing how BCM is a better value than Del-Ton, but your sarcastic accusation that I am means what? "Not praising Del-Ton, but not seeing the value/money." Seems to suggest that I am not implying that they are equal. $220 seems a lot of money for barrel steel, individual MPT/HP testing and double heat shield handguards.

220 dollars seems like very little to me for Quality control, customer service and a proven track record but that is just me. My friends bought rifle kits for around 500 if I remember correctly, so the complete uppers I am assuming will be cheaper. I will stick with your 220 dollar difference, which is trivial to me on something I will have my lifetime and hopefully my sons.

I can save 220 bucks somewhere else in life. All 3 of my coworkers waited close to 3 months when they ordered their kits, that's not a value in my mind. There is a lot more to value than what their websites spec sheet says. Is there even 1 upper on their website that is in stock?

Sporaticus
11-11-2012, 01:30
Pete,

While the jerkoffs are arguing, let me submit for your consideration....

Your stated purpose for your first upper is plinking and range fun. An upper doesn't have any moving parts. Exactly what do you think is going to be significant about an upper? Twist and the rails and handguards. For your first one, get what appeals to you. Then on your next one, you can be more "serious" if it isn't as accurate as you want.

If you do not live in N Dallas, and don't see the combat that is common in N Dallas, do you really need to spend $1k or more on an upper? I say no. For "range fun and plinking"....... get what you like. The thing you should be focusing on is carbine, middy, or 20", and possibly chrome lined receiver and barrel. I once read that "Brand A" doesn't have a chrome lined barrel, and when I looked at mine, I found that to be a lie. Brand isn't going to be that critical for a plinker and range rifle. And hey, at some point in the future, if it isn't as accurate as you want, you can always buy another barrel.

Get that first one done, run it a while, then go from there. You might find there are aspects you want to address on the next lower. Longer barrel, different twist, better accuracy, different rails, whatever.

If you read these forums, you know there are members who make it their personal goal to influence your decision to their favorite brand, or away from what they don't like. Not because they want to help you, but because they have a desperate need for validation.

Get what you like, at a price you are comfortable with, and have fun. I would be willing to bet you will be happy. You'll drive yourself crazy if you listen to the stupid crap the brand whores are spewing. Look at the first rifle\build as a learning experience (that will still work), and worst case, the second is a mulligan.

Just have fun with it.

Ruggles
11-11-2012, 01:30
Lots of pissing going on in this thread :)

Sporaticus
11-11-2012, 01:32
Lots of pissing going on in this thread :)

In EVERY thread. And it is usually the same morons participating.

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 01:34
220 dollars seems like very little to me for Quality control, customer service and a proven track record but that is just me. My friends bought rifle kits for around 500 if I remember correctly, so the complete uppers I am assuming will be cheaper. I will stick with your 220 dollar difference, which is trivial to me on something I will have my lifetime and hopefully my sons.

I can save 220 bucks somewhere else in life. All 3 of my coworkers waited close to 3 months when they ordered their kits, that's not a value in my mind. There is a lot more to value than what their websites spec sheet says. Is there even 1 upper on their website that is in stock?

In the words of a wise man, "Give me a break." Are you serious!? There's value to be added for things that don't require a serial/part/model/stock#?

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 01:46
In EVERY thread. And it is usually the same morons participating.

You're going to call names after giving the advice in your earlier post?

$1000 upper? Who's recommending a $1k upper?

Purchase a cheap upper now then another later on? Why? So he ends up spending much more in the long run? Makes a lot of sense for a guy on a budget.

Brand whores? Have you ever thought that people recommend brands on the bases of quality?

"You might find there are aspects you want to address on the next lower. Longer barrel, different twist, better accuracy, different rails, whatever." Since when do lowers have barrels and rails?

Yeah, lets call others names and question their advice.

LA_357SIG
11-11-2012, 02:29
I should have proofread these before hitting [Submit]

The BCM upper configured as close as Del-Ton offered (16" carbine, Chrome Lined 1/7 twist, Charging Handle, BCG, and Handguards) was $645 not $680. So $185 was the difference.

Del-Ton upper still isn't "5 bills" and $185 is still not "$100" more. No matter how you scrutinize it with extraneous babble, it still holds true.

bmoore
11-11-2012, 02:32
Pete,

While the jerkoffs are arguing, let me submit for your consideration....

Your stated purpose for your first upper is plinking and range fun. An upper doesn't have any moving parts. Exactly what do you think is going to be significant about an upper? Twist and the rails and handguards. For your first one, get what appeals to you. Then on your next one, you can be more "serious" if it isn't as accurate as you want.

If you do not live in N Dallas, and don't see the combat that is common in N Dallas, do you really need to spend $1k or more on an upper? I say no. For "range fun and plinking"....... get what you like. The thing you should be focusing on is carbine, middy, or 20", and possibly chrome lined receiver and barrel. I once read that "Brand A" doesn't have a chrome lined barrel, and when I looked at mine, I found that to be a lie. Brand isn't going to be that critical for a plinker and range rifle. And hey, at some point in the future, if it isn't as accurate as you want, you can always buy another barrel.

Get that first one done, run it a while, then go from there. You might find there are aspects you want to address on the next lower. Longer barrel, different twist, better accuracy, different rails, whatever.

If you read these forums, you know there are members who make it their personal goal to influence your decision to their favorite brand, or away from what they don't like. Not because they want to help you, but because they have a desperate need for validation.

Get what you like, at a price you are comfortable with, and have fun. I would be willing to bet you will be happy. You'll drive yourself crazy if you listen to the stupid crap the brand whores are spewing. Look at the first rifle\build as a learning experience (that will still work), and worst case, the second is a mulligan.

Just have fun with it.


Thanks forum hero. Some of us "submitted" some advice to him a lot earlier in the thread. Jesse Jackson called, he wants his coin phrase "submit to you" back. People with little smarts who are trying to sound smart have been using that one for decades.

OP- Buy whatever you want. My original advice was in post #17, before I the finger pointing started. Figure 200 bucks more for the BCM. Buy what you think will work for you, giving advice on this forum is getting hard to do.

Pete7072
11-11-2012, 08:10
Anyone heard of DSA Arms ? They're selling barreled uppers pretty good price, without the Bolt, BCG or Charging handle. Should I just got with Palmetto if I'm going this route ?

mjkeat
11-11-2012, 09:29
$185, In most cases that's not even 500 rounds of ammunition. It's also most of our monthly lunch budget for some POS fast food place. $185 is nothing when compared to the added value and piece of mind.

You may get a good brand A (many do) but you may not. There are brands out there where not getting a 100% GTG product is basically unheard of.

Get what you ultimately want. Just know for the price some McDonalds you can make a big leap in quality in something that you can enjoy for many many years. McD's usually only sticks around for an hour or 2, lol. Enjoy.

USMCsilver
11-11-2012, 09:49
No problem.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/chrisq_01/100_2561.jpg


That looks pretty badass! :) Done tradin' jabs. Handshake? :sorry:

QNman
11-11-2012, 20:12
Anyone heard of DSA Arms ? They're selling barreled uppers pretty good price, without the Bolt, BCG or Charging handle. Should I just got with Palmetto if I'm going this route ?

I have... same basic quality as Del-Ton. I currently own a Del-Ton; I also own a Palmetto. I also own several more expensive rifles. I have had no issues with the Del-Ton OR the Palmetto. They're neither one sub-MOA rifles, but they're not bad. I don't think you'd go particular "wrong" with any of the above.

I'm with a couple of the earlier posters - unless this is the last upper you're ever going to buy (it's not), buy one of the ones above and shoot the hell out of it.

At SOME POINT, if you're serious about building your lower the way you want, you WILL want a nicer, better quality, more accurate upper. How do I know this? Experience... My first black rifle was a CMMG $499 rifle from back around 2005. I put about 2,500 rounds through it, then sold it to my brother (who still shoots it, though not often).

One caveat - my PERSONAL experience with DPMS has been mixed. I've had two panthers; the first was fine, but nothing special. The second would NOT shoot better than 3 MOA. After returning it to DPMS TWICE, they told me that was as accurate as the rifle would get (even though my older one was more accurate than that). With CS like that, I swore to avoid them in the future.