Carrying in a bar that can't legally dispense alcohol? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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HollowHead
11-10-2012, 23:28
For reasons that would clog bandwidth, a motorcycle organization I'm a member of has lost yet another place to hold it's monthly Sunday morning meetings and has been invited to meet at a local bar on a Sunday morning at 10am, two hours before alcohol can be legally served / sold by local ordinance. One question that came up is, is that two hour window kosher for CCW even though it's a bar where carry is forbidden because alcohol is served? HH

FCastle88
11-11-2012, 00:55
It probably depends on your state's laws, does the bar also serve food before they are allowed to serve alcohol, or are they letting you use the bar before it actually opens? Either way, there's a pretty good argument that no alcohol is being served, and it's just being used as a restaurant or meeting place, not as a bar. Fortunately in PA I can carry pretty anywhere except federal buildings, airports, courthouses, and K-12 schools, so glad I don't have to worry about all these technicalities people are always asking about.

TK-421
11-11-2012, 00:58
That's a good question. From my understanding of the law, at least here in Texas, it doesn't matter whether or not they're actually serving alcohol, it's the fact that they derive 51% of their sales from alcohol, which means no carry inside that establishment period. However, I honestly haven't researched it much, and that is my best guess, but I could be completely wrong.

My advice is to call up your local police station and ask them, because they'll be the ones who you have to deal with if you get in trouble for it. So they'll probably be the ones who know whether or not you'd get in trouble for it.

Slug71
11-11-2012, 02:31
In Oregon you can carry in a bar.

automatic slim
11-11-2012, 03:04
What kinda bass player is up at 10am on a Sunday?

:supergrin:

Resqu2
11-11-2012, 05:40
I'm sure it depends on the state but I can't Carry in a school on Election Day even though no kids are in school and the building isn't being used as a school that day. I'd check with te locals on this one just to be safe.

Bruce M
11-11-2012, 05:54
What kinda bass player is up at 10am on a Sunday?

:supergrin:
:rofl::rofl:

el_jewapo
11-11-2012, 07:04
WWGD? (What would Gipsy do?)

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/the-devils-ride/images/the-devils-ride-gipsy-284x212.jpg

tehan2
11-11-2012, 08:12
WWGD? (What would Gipsy do?)

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/the-devils-ride/images/the-devils-ride-gipsy-284x212.jpg

he'd "relieve himself" on his underage step-daughter....

.264 magnum
11-11-2012, 08:23
That's a good question. From my understanding of the law, at least here in Texas, it doesn't matter whether or not they're actually serving alcohol, it's the fact that they derive 51% of their sales from alcohol, which means no carry inside that establishment period. However, I honestly haven't researched it much, and that is my best guess, but I could be completely wrong.

My advice is to call up your local police station and ask them, because they'll be the ones who you have to deal with if you get in trouble for it. So they'll probably be the ones who know whether or not you'd get in trouble for it.

In Texas if an bar/restaurant has a TABC license of any kind, local taxing percentages have noting to do with it, CC is a no go.

failsafe
11-11-2012, 08:28
Are all bars allowed to be open on Sunday or only the ones that serve food also ? i can't speak to TX, but here in MO. a Bar/Restaurant can be open on Sunday only if it has a 51% total food sales..Bars only are not allowed to open on Sunday..

IndyGunFreak
11-11-2012, 08:28
In Texas if an bar/restaurant has a TABC license of any kind, local taxing percentages have noting to do with it, CC is a no go.

So does Texas even have a 51% law? (I was thinking they did)... but from the sounds of what you're saying, if they serve alcohol, it's no joy.

The OP's question is very difficult to answer, because he has not stated what state he is in.

.264 magnum
11-11-2012, 08:36
So does Texas even have a 51% law? (I was thinking they did)... but from the sounds of what you're saying, if they serve alcohol, it's no joy.

The OP's question is very difficult to answer, because he has not stated what state he is in.


The OP is in Montana.

All of the Texas percentage rules are city or county enforced attempts at morals policing money grabbing. The rub is hard liquor is taxed at higher rates than beer and wine by the TABC - IIRC the difference is 6%. Added to that local entities want to control the number of bars. Some won't allow a restaurant to sell over a certain percentage of booze v. total receipts. Some enforce financial penalties for missing local percentages.

Irving just had an vote over upping it percentage.

There is a lot of cheating and places that sell higher end beers and wines have a more difficult time as you can imagine.



ETA - as you might guess the percentages are all over the place. Irving was at 40%, many others are at 50 and 60%. It's really stupid.

HollowHead
11-11-2012, 15:09
I spoke with the county attorney last night during on of our breaks (he's in the pool league) and it's a no-go in MT to CCW in any non-food bar regardless of the hour. We also have a 51%-plus food revenue law and for what it's worth, you can't carry in the "dispensing room" (bar area) of a restaurant, either. HH

Dan_ntx
11-11-2012, 15:35
In Texas if an bar/restaurant has a TABC license of any kind, local taxing percentages have noting to do with it, CC is a no go.

GC 411.204 says "and" derives 51% of it's revenue from alcohol sales. Then CC is a no go.

Unless posted otherwise (30.06 sign) you can lawfully enjoy a meal in a restaurant that serves alcohol while CC in Texas.

If I were able to cut and paste from the state website I would, but alas I am not.

jpa
11-11-2012, 15:46
That's a good question. From my understanding of the law, at least here in Texas, it doesn't matter whether or not they're actually serving alcohol, it's the fact that they derive 51% of their sales from alcohol, which means no carry inside that establishment period. However, I honestly haven't researched it much, and that is my best guess, but I could be completely wrong.

My advice is to call up your local police station and ask them, because they'll be the ones who you have to deal with if you get in trouble for it. So they'll probably be the ones who know whether or not you'd get in trouble for it.

Yes, do that. Tell them that your "motorcycle organization" was forced to find a new place to meet on short notice because they're no longer welcome at their previous meeting place and this bar in their jurisdiction will do just fine. Then ask if you can carry your gun to this meeting. I guarantee if the meeting didn't get unwanted law enforcement attention before, it will now.

SMOKEin
11-11-2012, 16:02
GC 411.204 says "and" derives 51% of it's revenue from alcohol sales. Then CC is a no go.

Unless posted otherwise (30.06 sign) you can lawfully enjoy a meal in a restaurant that serves alcohol while CC in Texas.

If I were able to cut and paste from the state website I would, but alas I am not.

Correct. Serving alcohol does not mean you cannot ccw, 51% does.

ETA - In TX...

OP - What state do you live in? What does the state law say?

TK-421
11-11-2012, 16:05
In Texas if an bar/restaurant has a TABC license of any kind, local taxing percentages have noting to do with it, CC is a no go.

Well, you learn something new everyday. I thought it was only if the establishment got 51% of their revenue from alcohol. No idea no guns were allowed period if they had any alcohol license, even if they don't get 51% of their revenue from the sales of it. :crying:

SMOKEin
11-11-2012, 16:11
Well, you learn something new everyday. I thought it was only if the establishment got 51% of their revenue from alcohol. No idea no guns were allowed period if they had any alcohol license, even if they don't get 51% of their revenue from the sales of it. :crying:

Don't take advice on the internet, read the laws. Pages 25 & 26.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/forms/chl-16.pdf

GC 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall
26 TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS
prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign include on its face the number 51

HollowHead
11-11-2012, 16:31
Yes, do that. Tell them that your "motorcycle organization" was forced to find a new place to meet on short notice because they're no longer welcome at their previous meeting place and this bar in their jurisdiction will do just fine. Then ask if you can carry your gun to this meeting. I guarantee if the meeting didn't get unwanted law enforcement attention before, it will now.

Actually, we are still welcomed and warmly so at every place we've ever met. We moved the first time because it went non-smoking, the second because it went under (lost their license serving minors too many times), and the third place because it was simply too small and hard to hold a meeting over the blaring TVs the regulars were watching. The last place was perfect because we had our own room (half the dining area accordian-doored off from the church ladies having Sunday brunch. Then came the election and a discussion of an endorsement of a local candidate. The meeting got so heated and language that would make a sailor blush was hurled with such ferocity that when the meeting broke up (early), the accordian door was pulled back to a dining room completely empty with half-eaten food on every table. We're now going back to the small place with the TVs...she's going to open before noon for us but no alcohol. HH

Gallium
11-11-2012, 17:05
In some states it is ok to carry on school grounds if school is not in session.

Is a bar a bar if you are renting the facilities, and no liquor is served? If you rent a bar to host a funeral service (with pastor, body, casket etc but no booze) are you not simply using the actual space, but not the usual service it provides?

In my state, if a space is used for K-12 educational purposes (not like a field trip, but actual classes), you cannot carry there.

I am not making a case, merely asking questions.

Mi_shooter
11-11-2012, 19:33
Well if you have been invited to hold your meetings there then ask permission of the owner. In Michigan it doesn't matter if its a bar or not. As its private property and you have permission it's a non issue.

TK-421
11-11-2012, 19:38
Yes, do that. Tell them that your "motorcycle organization" was forced to find a new place to meet on short notice because they're no longer welcome at their previous meeting place and this bar in their jurisdiction will do just fine. Then ask if you can carry your gun to this meeting. I guarantee if the meeting didn't get unwanted law enforcement attention before, it will now.

I was thinking something more like telling them you're a registered CCW permit holder, your buddy invited you to hang out with some friends at his bar on sundays at 10, before it's allowed to serve alcohol, and want to know if you can legally carry inside the bar while hanging out with your friends. There's no need to tell them exactly what you're doing inside the bar, but you should stress that you're a legal CCW permit holder and want to do your very best to make sure you always stay within the law.

TK-421
11-11-2012, 19:40
Don't take advice on the internet, read the laws. Pages 25 & 26.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/forms/chl-16.pdf

GC 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall
26 TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS
prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign include on its face the number 51

Hey what do you know, I thought I was right. I knew I had read that law before, just didn't know if it was long enough ago that I had forgotten part of it. Thanks for finding it for me. :wavey: