45 ACP vs 45 SUPER QUESTION [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ghr1142
11-11-2012, 09:41
I'v been checking these for comparesen, and I find no differance in the brass. They are identical. My question is the Super just like a 45 ACP. +P+ ? If not ! whats so special about it. The bullet too is only .001 in diameter size.
Any info. would be welcome

Thanks. :dunno:

Kingarthurhk
11-11-2012, 09:49
I'v been checking these for comparesen, and I find no differance in the brass. They are identical. My question is the Super just like a 45 ACP. +P+ ? If not ! whats so special about it. The bullet too is only .001 in diameter size.
Any info. would be welcome

Thanks. :dunno:

I am curious myself. I have been tempted by .45 super for the speed up a typically slow round. However, I am reticient to do that with standard Glock barrel.

ghr1142
11-11-2012, 10:44
I am curious myself. I have been tempted by .45 super for the speed up a typically slow round. However, I am reticient to do that with standard Glock barrel.

I think your going to find a new barrel is in store. LWD.
Maybe some of the other Glockers can give us the details. Let me know if you get any info.

SDGlock23
11-11-2012, 17:41
The brass is identical externally. It's supposed to have a little bit beefier innards compared to the ACP because it is a higher pressure cartridge. I shoot the .45 Super and load for it, but I do use an aftermarket barrel to play it safe.

CanyonMan
11-11-2012, 18:51
The brass is identical externally. It's supposed to have a little bit beefier innards compared to the ACP because it is a higher pressure cartridge. I shoot the .45 Super and load for it, but I do use an aftermarket barrel to play it safe.


Hey there my brother ! Good to hear from ya. I have had a wave of post for the last few days, after a long lay off on GT, and am just about to go back into my lay off again... haha, but saw your post..

I have read, as you know, I good deal of your post on the 45 super, and have another amigo on here, icemanchuck the tu tu cool friend of mine, that shoots a good deal of them.

I am trying to sell a like new G20SF, Out of my stock, and some x-tra barrels for it as well, to 'maybe" fund another 45acp to use as just 45 super. That is until Yesterday, when I drove in to Allen , TX, at Cabela's new store there and saw a "Cabela's special". Ruger Super Blackhawk 44mag with a Bisley grip frame, and a 3 3/4" barrel ! Man... Sweet to the max ! Never I see this before, and all the years i been packin Ruger hog legs..

As I said it is a 'special run from Cabela's'. Soooo Perhaps, a down payment, and 90 days to get it out. There won't ever (more than likely) be another one of these again...


So, I still want to really get into the 45 super. Perhaps just by a AM barrel for one of the M1911's and do it that way. The rest is just a stiffer spring, and buying the "super brass." about 1100/1150fps with a 230gr bullet sounds nice to me, since I already carry 45acp EDC when "in Town" anyway...

To many dang decisions goin on amigo ! ;)

Well, see around. Drop me another email when ya can, let me know how your doin.


God bless ya !





CanyonMan

Trigger Finger
11-11-2012, 19:00
I have been shooting 45 Super for several years out of my converted S&W 4506 and Glock 21sf. The way I understand it the brass is definitely beefier at the web of the casings but you can only see this on a cutaway.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

The bottom of this link shows a cutaway of 45 brass. You can get the beefier Super brass at several places but I know Midway has it at a reasonable price.

I do use a Lone Wolf compensated barrel for the Glock to shoot the 45 Super but the standard barrel in the S&W holds up well. I love the 45 Super, it's a great cartridge!
Best price for 45 Super ammo is Underwood!!

dougader
11-11-2012, 20:11
The 45 Super brass is also heat treated. From the Starline website:

45 Super Brass (Large Pistol primer)
0.892 - 0.897 O.A.L.

45 Super* is the same externally as the 45 Auto, but has a thicker web, denser grain structure in the metal, and special heat treat process that enhances the durability of the case. Similar internal capacity as the 45 Auto. Some 45 Super load data was published by Triton Cartridge before they went out of business. *Loads to be shot ONLY in guns modified professionally to handle extreme pressures of this cartridge. DO NOT SHOOT IN STANDARD 45 AUTO!

SDGlock23
11-12-2012, 08:54
Hey there my brother ! Good to hear from ya. I have had a wave of post for the last few days, after a long lay off on GT, and am just about to go back into my lay off again... haha, but saw your post..

I have read, as you know, I good deal of your post on the 45 super, and have another amigo on here, icemanchuck the tu tu cool friend of mine, that shoots a good deal of them.

I am trying to sell a like new G20SF, Out of my stock, and some x-tra barrels for it as well, to 'maybe" fund another 45acp to use as just 45 super. That is until Yesterday, when I drove in to Allen , TX, at Cabela's new store there and saw a "Cabela's special". Ruger Super Blackhawk 44mag with a Bisley grip frame, and a 3 3/4" barrel ! Man... Sweet to the max ! Never I see this before, and all the years i been packin Ruger hog legs..

As I said it is a 'special run from Cabela's'. Soooo Perhaps, a down payment, and 90 days to get it out. There won't ever (more than likely) be another one of these again...


So, I still want to really get into the 45 super. Perhaps just by a AM barrel for one of the M1911's and do it that way. The rest is just a stiffer spring, and buying the "super brass." about 1100/1150fps with a 230gr bullet sounds nice to me, since I already carry 45acp EDC when "in Town" anyway...

To many dang decisions goin on amigo ! ;)

Well, see around. Drop me another email when ya can, let me know how your doin.


God bless ya !





CanyonMan


Good to hear ya CM! That Cabelas special model Ruger SBH .44 w/Bisley grip sounds too cool, something to jump on for sure!

Think of it like this, selling your G20sf would fund most of that sweet Super Blackhawk and you probably won't need an aftermarket barrel for the 1911 since it probably has great case support anyways. You may have seen this CM, but here is a 1911 shooting .45 Super for only $8, basically just spring upgrades:

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

Take care brother, good hearing from you!

CanyonMan
11-12-2012, 13:40
Good to hear ya CM! That Cabelas special model Ruger SBH .44 w/Bisley grip sounds too cool, something to jump on for sure!

Think of it like this, selling your G20sf would fund most of that sweet Super Blackhawk and you probably won't need an aftermarket barrel for the 1911 since it probably has great case support anyways. You may have seen this CM, but here is a 1911 shooting .45 Super for only $8, basically just spring upgrades:

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

Take care brother, good hearing from you!



Yep it is a really sweet six shooter. Now if I can only find a buyer for the 10mm. In this part of the country no one seems to want one ! ha.



Thanks for the link, it was good stuff brother.


Later amigo






CanyonMan

Kentguy
11-15-2012, 07:09
Sorry folks - got my thoughts crossed up here.

Arc Angel
11-15-2012, 09:33
:shocked: STOP! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

45 ACP, AND 45 SUPER CARTRIDGE CASES ARE NOT THE SAME.

Keep on going the way you are now; and, 'kaBoom!' you'll quickly find out the hard way exactly what the difference between these two cartridges is. :freak:

45 ACP = 21,000 psi.
45 ACP +P = 23,000 psi.
45 Super = 28,000 psi.

NEVER USE STANDARD 45 ACP BRASS TO LOAD TO 45 SUPER VELOCITIES.

There is no such thing as, '45 ACP +P+'.

SCmasterblaster
11-15-2012, 14:47
How do you tell between the brasses (.45 ACP and .45 Super) when retrieving them from the floor? Does the .45 Super have noticeable head stamps?

Iceman cHucK
11-15-2012, 18:26
How do you tell between the brasses (.45 ACP and .45 Super) when retrieving them from the floor? Does the .45 Super have noticeable head stamps?

Yes, Starline brass is headstamped "45 Super"

SCmasterblaster
11-15-2012, 19:01
Yes, Starline brass is headstamped "45 Super"

That's good. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to tell them apart.

Arc Angel
11-15-2012, 21:28
I've used Winchester, and Starline 45 Super brass. All of it was headstamped, '45 Super'. Why? Because it has to be! (The web immediately behind the head is thicker and better able to withstand 45 Super pressure - Especially in significantly rebated Glock chambers.

SCmasterblaster
11-16-2012, 13:05
I often wonder why ammo manufacturers keep trying to make expandable hollow points in .45 caliber when the bullet width is already a wide .45 inches? I mean the 9mm makers are very pleased when their bullets achieve .45 inches after expansion. Why not just develop an ordinary SP or SWC load in .45ACP?

SDGlock23
11-17-2012, 08:17
I often wonder why ammo manufacturers keep trying to make expandable hollow points in .45 caliber when the bullet width is already a wide .45 inches? I mean the 9mm makers are very pleased when their bullets achieve .45 inches after expansion. Why not just develop an ordinary SP or SWC load in .45ACP?

Because when my .45 Super throws a 250gr Gold Dot out of my G21 Gen4 (KKM bbl) at 1050-1100 fps and expands to over .80" and penetrates deep, what's not to like?

SCmasterblaster
11-17-2012, 08:57
Because when my .45 Super throws a 250gr Gold Dot out of my G21 Gen4 (KKM bbl) at 1050-1100 fps and expands to over .80" and penetrates deep, what's not to like?

.80 caliber? Awesome.

chuckscap
05-11-2013, 21:53
Because when my .45 Super throws a 250gr Gold Dot out of my G21 Gen4 (KKM bbl) at 1050-1100 fps and expands to over .80" and penetrates deep, what's not to like?

I know this is a Glock Forum and we have a G36 and like it a lot, but I've been shooting 45 Super loads (230g bonded Golden Sabre HPs at 1150 fps) out of my Springfield V16 LongSlide for over a decade for my self defense load. I shoot regular 230g 45 ACP hardball for practice and always finish up with a couple of clips of 45 Super. It's a great round!

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg144/chuckscap/DSC01109.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/chuckscap/media/DSC01109.jpg.html)

gatorboy
05-15-2013, 09:48
Because when my .45 Super throws a 250gr Gold Dot out of my G21 Gen4 (KKM bbl) at 1050-1100 fps and expands to over .80" and penetrates deep, what's not to like?

That is one hell of a load! I'll have to check 45 Colt bullets for some short 250's.

SCmasterblaster
05-15-2013, 10:45
Because when my .45 Super throws a 250gr Gold Dot out of my G21 Gen4 (KKM bbl) at 1050-1100 fps and expands to over .80" and penetrates deep, what's not to like?

A 250gr jacketed bullet at 1100 FPS - awesome!

SDGlock23
05-15-2013, 18:47
I know this is a Glock Forum and we have a G36 and like it a lot, but I've been shooting 45 Super loads (230g bonded Golden Sabre HPs at 1150 fps) out of my Springfield V16 LongSlide for over a decade for my self defense load. I shoot regular 230g 45 ACP hardball for practice and always finish up with a couple of clips of 45 Super. It's a great round!

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg144/chuckscap/DSC01109.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/chuckscap/media/DSC01109.jpg.html)


Nice! I was really intrigued by the V16 Longslide when they came out some time back. Yours looks great! 1150fps with a 230gr JHP is pumping out some power, I like!

SDGlock23
05-15-2013, 18:51
That is one hell of a load! I'll have to check 45 Colt bullets for some short 250's.

There are some short 250's out there. Beartooth makes a short 255gr hardcast that works well, as do other designs. I can shoot the 250gr XTP to 1150 fps from my G21 .45 Super, it shoots very well and penetrates deep, and expands just like an XTP should.

I loaded up some more of the 250gr Gold Dots the other day in .45 Super and averaged 1125 fps, and a 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast at almost 1150 fps, that's around 800 ft-lbs of energy with a bullet that weighs almost 300grs. With 13+1rds capacity.

CanyonMan
05-15-2013, 19:25
Deleted

CM

gatorboy
05-16-2013, 09:49
Nice SDG23. I'd be very happy with that 250 GD @ 1050-1100. I looked at some yesterday online. Is the HP cavity similar in depth and width to the 230 GD? It looked wider even but could'nt see depth very well.

gatorboy
05-16-2013, 10:05
SD, a couple Q's:

4.5" barrel or extended? Are you using stock RSA? I've thought of sticking a few wheel weights on the slide of my G421 to slow it down some. Any opinions? Thanks.

dougader
05-16-2013, 10:26
Nice SDG23. I'd be very happy with that 250 GD @ 1050-1100. I looked at some yesterday online. Is the HP cavity similar in depth and width to the 230 GD? It looked wider even but could'nt see depth very well.

I have those bullets, plus the SB (short barrel) 230 GD. The 250 GD hp cavity is much deeper IMO, than both the 230 GDSB and, of course, the standard 230 GD.

IIRC, the hp is less on the XTP 230 and 250 XTP-HP.

I think a ported barrel is necessary to help slow down the slide on the Super. Some say you need a comp on the end of the barrel, and with the 460 Rowland I'm sure that's true.

I use a LW 6", 4-port barrel with my G21sf and a 21# recoil spring.

IMO, if you're getting 5" velocities in excess of the Real Guns data with the powders listed (AA7, Power Pistol, Blue Dot) then you are most likely above the 28,000 psi suggested max. average pressure for the 45 Super. There is no established SAAMI pressure range established.

IIRC, those velocities are about 1400 fps with a 185, 1300 fps with a 200, 1200 with a 230 and about 1000 fps with a 260.

As you go above 28k psi loads, you're on your own and I think the addidtion of a comp becomes more important. IMO. :cool:

http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm

Now, I've gone as high as 1177 or so fps with a Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC bullet. That's 815 ft lbs. muzzle energy, and I'd love to take an elk with this load but it's not one that I run a lot of. My usual load with the 265 is 1033 fps, and that's still 628 ft. lbs. ME and no slouch by most any standard.

gatorboy
05-16-2013, 10:42
Thanks for the info dougader. I plan to keep my 45 Super to slow and heavy, like 45 +P but heavier. I can get some smoking 10mm if I feel the need for more speed.

Just ordered 19, 20 and 22# recoil springs for a 4.5" M&P 45. I'm going to see if I can order a 5" threaded barrel with thread protector just to get another 1/2" of burn time/space.
EDIT: Just (back)ordered a black 5.30" threaded barrel for the M&P45. That's another .75" of tube to work with. The availability of +% recoil springs is why I did'nt order a barrel for the G421. My 29/36 with 23# RSA does nicely with the little bit of 45Super I've put through it. Come on Wolff Inc. - get off it and make some RSA's for the 20/21.

Thanks to all for the solid info.

dougader
05-16-2013, 10:57
I really like the look of the 275 grain that SD23 is running. It's got more of the bullet outside the case, leaving more room for powder.

Remember, John Linebaugh says a 250-260 grain hardcast at 900 fps will penetrate deer or antelope from stem to stern and keep on going.

G26S239
05-16-2013, 12:02
I know this is a Glock Forum and we have a G36 and like it a lot, but I've been shooting 45 Super loads (230g bonded Golden Sabre HPs at 1150 fps) out of my Springfield V16 LongSlide for over a decade for my self defense load. I shoot regular 230g 45 ACP hardball for practice and always finish up with a couple of clips of 45 Super. It's a great round!

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg144/chuckscap/DSC01109.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/chuckscap/media/DSC01109.jpg.html)Nice gun Chuck. :thumbsup: Most people here at GT are mature enough to appreciate guns other than Glock.

I really like the look of the 275 grain that SD23 is running. It's got more of the bullet outside the case, leaving more room for powder.

Remember, John Linebaugh says a 250-260 grain hardcast at 900 fps will penetrate deer or antelope from stem to stern and keep on going.

I want to get a Linebaugh 45 Colt someday. Not to max out but to use with 250s @ 850 - 1000 fps and occasionally 325 @ 1300 for kicks.

dougader
05-16-2013, 12:40
You can do that, or pretty close to it, with your run of the mill, large frame Ruger Blackhawk or Blackhawk Bisley.

I ran 250's to 900, 255's an 265's to 1300+ fps and a Cast Performace 335 WLNGC to 1200 fps. I don't imagine there's much you can't handle with those loads.

If I wanted more power than a heavy 45 Colt load, I'd look toward a 480 Ruger, or 475 or 500 Linebaugh.

G26S239
05-16-2013, 15:16
I just want a nice Linebaugh revolver dougader. Just because. I can already do more than I listed with my 460XVR.

SDGlock23
05-16-2013, 16:40
Nice SDG23. I'd be very happy with that 250 GD @ 1050-1100. I looked at some yesterday online. Is the HP cavity similar in depth and width to the 230 GD? It looked wider even but could'nt see depth very well.


Yes the cavity of the two is almost identical...very deep. The nod goes to the 250gr, it's a tad deeper :)

SDGlock23
05-16-2013, 16:44
SD, a couple Q's:

4.5" barrel or extended? Are you using stock RSA? I've thought of sticking a few wheel weights on the slide of my G421 to slow it down some. Any opinions? Thanks.

It's a KKM 4 port for the G21 so yeah it's slightly extended, it measures in a 5" long with threads. The comp helps to slow slide speed down and yes I do use a 22lb gen3 guide rod, using a gen3 RSA adapter. 24lb spring would work even better, but I don't have one. But you certainly need to slow the slide down because when I used to run 45 Super out of the stock 4.6" KKM, it was beating up brass worse and there were stoppages, guessing the mag spring couldn't keep up with the slide speed.

SDGlock23
05-16-2013, 16:49
I have those bullets, plus the SB (short barrel) 230 GD. The 250 GD hp cavity is much deeper IMO, than both the 230 GDSB and, of course, the standard 230 GD.

IIRC, the hp is less on the XTP 230 and 250 XTP-HP.

I think a ported barrel is necessary to help slow down the slide on the Super. Some say you need a comp on the end of the barrel, and with the 460 Rowland I'm sure that's true.

I use a LW 6", 4-port barrel with my G21sf and a 21# recoil spring.

IMO, if you're getting 5" velocities in excess of the Real Guns data with the powders listed (AA7, Power Pistol, Blue Dot) then you are most likely above the 28,000 psi suggested max. average pressure for the 45 Super. There is no established SAAMI pressure range established.

IIRC, those velocities are about 1400 fps with a 185, 1300 fps with a 200, 1200 with a 230 and about 1000 fps with a 260.

As you go above 28k psi loads, you're on your own and I think the addidtion of a comp becomes more important. IMO. :cool:

http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm

Now, I've gone as high as 1177 or so fps with a Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC bullet. That's 815 ft lbs. muzzle energy, and I'd love to take an elk with this load but it's not one that I run a lot of. My usual load with the 265 is 1033 fps, and that's still 628 ft. lbs. ME and no slouch by most any standard.

Your 265gr load is very impressive as well, and like you said, even at just over 1000 fps it's gonna penetrate deep and that Beartooth hardcast is going to cut a big hole too.

The 275gr Hunters Supply has a wonderful profile, and it makes me wonder what if they kept the profile but added 25gr to the rear of it, I'm sure it could still break 1050 fps or so. Oh well, as much as like the Super and toying around with it, if I really need more I'll bring out the Bisley .45 Colt.

RichardB
05-16-2013, 18:03
Can I shoot 45 Super out of my convertible Blackhawk?

SDGlock23
05-16-2013, 18:46
There shouldn't be a problem in doing that. I've got an ACP cylinder for my Bisley but I've never really tried it. You should be good to go because I've ran some STOUT .45 Colt loads through mine, so there's no reason it wouldn't handle .45 Super well in the ACP cylinder.

dougader
05-16-2013, 18:54
Can I shoot 45 Super out of my convertible Blackhawk?

Just make sure it's one of the large frame Rugers, same frame as the 44 mag Blackhawk.

I wouldn't run 45 Super in a NM Flat Top convertible, although they are good to go with 45 auto +P.