What does the IDF do differently? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ricky
11-12-2012, 11:21
I did some research and got nowhere In a hurry on this question, what do the Israelis do differently with their m4 and m16 then we do? Do they maintain their's differently,what lube do they use, what ammo and bullet weight do they use?

Is thee something we can learn from them like cleaning,maintaining,modifying them?

I think this would be good reading personally.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 11:25
The biggest question is why does what the IDF does matter? I really don't get it. What is the huge fascination with a small country's defense forces? We designed the weapon. We've fielded some variant of it in several different types of environments for more than 40 years. We've been in, more or less, a constant state of conflict (openly or not) somewhere on the globe since the rifle's inception. Why would Israel have more insight and knowledge about the rifle than we do?

AK_Stick
11-12-2012, 11:25
What makes you think they do anything differently?

bigmoney890
11-12-2012, 12:01
The biggest question is why does what the IDF does matter? I really don't get it. What is the huge fascination with a small country's defense forces? We designed the weapon. We've fielded some variant of it in several different types of environments for more than 40 years. We've been in, more or less, a constant state of conflict (openly or not) somewhere on the globe since the rifle's inception. Why would Israel have more insight and knowledge about the rifle than we do?

What he said!

Captain Steinbrenner
11-12-2012, 12:13
This reminds me an Israeli employee I had that would look at you in the eyes and tell you that they take two of our F16's and make one superior F16 out them.....:rolleyes:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

ricky
11-12-2012, 12:34
Perhaps we do not know it all on all subjects, perhaps they have more experience in dusty conditions, perhaps they figured something out we haven't.

Maybe attaining more knowledge is good or perhaps some people have their heads in the sand and enjoy it immensely?

WoodenPlank
11-12-2012, 12:37
I'm still not sure what makes the OP think that the IDF does something differently or better than what the US does.

ricky
11-12-2012, 12:41
How about a true answer to the question and no further unrelated comments?

Sgt. Rambo
11-12-2012, 12:55
The biggest question is why does what the IDF does matter? I really don't get it. What is the huge fascination with a small country's defense forces? We designed the weapon. We've fielded some variant of it in several different types of environments for more than 40 years. We've been in, more or less, a constant state of conflict (openly or not) somewhere on the globe since the rifle's inception. Why would Israel have more insight and knowledge about the rifle than we do?

Maybe the 80-100 Million enemies that vow to wipe them off the earth but are afraid to do anything about it. Israel's very existence in that part of the world lets me know they are doing something a lot different. All the big dogs barking in that part of the world but no one moves on the little dog, and its no longer about the US backing them... those days are over if you ask me. The IDF is doing something different alright.

expatman
11-12-2012, 13:05
I did some research and got nowhere In a hurry on this question, what do the Israelis do differently with their m4 and m16 then we do? Do they maintain their's differently,what lube do they use, what ammo and bullet weight do they use?

Is thee something we can learn from them like cleaning,maintaining,modifying them?

I think this would be good reading personally.

I trained a little bit with them in whe mid 90's. They don't do anything different with their M16's.

They were using 62gr 5.56mm and I saw some 55gr. just like I have seen with our forces.

I never bothered to ask what kind of lube they used because it really does not matter. You could use CLP to Mobile 1 and get the same results with the exception of extreme environments such as extreme cold weather.

As far as experience in dusty environments are concerned, think about it for a min. We have been fighting in what some might consider a dusty environment nonstop since at least 2001. That is 12 years of experience. I think we pretty much got that one under control. On top of the last 12 years we have also had guys in the Sinai for a long time as well as NTC. It has always been a myth that we would have more problems in a desert environment than anybody else. We proved that in the first gulf war as well as the second iteration in Iraq and A-stan.

They do have some tactics that are different but so does every other Army in the world and everyone can learn something on a tactical level from someone else.

KalashniKEV
11-12-2012, 13:21
How about a true answer to the question and no further unrelated comments?

I can think of a few things they do differently:

1) Go around in Status: Amber/ Condition 3 so they don't shoot themselves or each other.

2) Open beer bottles with their Galil bipods while having campfire guitar singalong time. Lots of man to man touching too.

3) Randomly and thoughtlessly cut back CAR barrels to ~10.3" and then wonder why they don't run.

4) Get free equipment, get free money. Sell free equipment to Chinese, knock off free equipment for local production, spy on our defense industry, steal land.

5) Hang junk Chinese accessories off of their free equipment. Sell junk Chinese accessories to the American consumer.

6) Use free equipment to oppress/murder the former/ rightful occupants of their stolen land.

7) Children as human shields.

8) Traffic (almost all) drugs from South America into Europe.

9) Field a huge formation of barely-trained conscripts, get their asses handed to them by Hezbollah in '06.

Oh... I just realized you were asking about AR type rifles...

#3 then.

:supergrin:

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:26
Maybe the 80-100 Million enemies that vow to wipe them off the earth but are afraid to do anything about it. Israel's very existence in that part of the world lets me know they are doing something a lot different. All the big dogs barking in that part of the world but no one moves on the little dog, and its no longer about the US backing them... those days are over if you ask me. The IDF is doing something different alright.

If you think the U.S. no longer backs Israel then you're mistaken. The moment the U.S. comes out and says "We will no longer back Israel militarily, either overtly or covertly", Israel will be attacked.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 14:21
The biggest thing that the Israelis do differently is conscript forces from a homogeneous population of a very small nation that is out numbered and surrounded by its enemies who have vowed to destroy them. When Israeli forces are trained, it is very much in the forefront of their minds that tomorrow may be another battle upon which depends the very survival of their people. Americans have never been in such a battle. The Israelis are in one every ten years or so.

cowboy1964
11-12-2012, 14:27
I can think of a few things they do differently:

1) Go around in Status: Amber/ Condition 3 so they don't shoot themselves or each other.

2) Open beer bottles with their Galil bipods while having campfire guitar singalong time. Lots of man to man touching too.

3) Randomly and thoughtlessly cut back CAR barrels to ~10.3" and then wonder why they don't run.

4) Get free equipment, get free money. Sell free equipment to Chinese, knock off free equipment for local production, spy on our defense industry, steal land.

5) Hang junk Chinese accessories off of their free equipment. Sell junk Chinese accessories to the American consumer.

6) Use free equipment to oppress/murder the former/ rightful occupants of their stolen land.

7) Children as human shields.

8) Traffic (almost all) drugs from South America into Europe.

9) Field a huge formation of barely-trained conscripts, get their asses handed to them by Hezbollah in '06.

Oh... I just realized you were asking about AR type rifles...

#3 then.

:supergrin:

Save the anti-Semitism for the PI issues forum. Freaking morons.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 14:29
Save the anti-Semitism for the PI issues forum. Freaking morons.

How is what he said in any way degrading to Jewish people? The state of Israel is not perfect, that in no way reflects on all people of Jewish ancestry. If someone said negative things about the state of Rome, would you consider that to be anti-Catholic?

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 14:46
How is what he said in any way degrading to Jewish people? The state of Israel is not perfect, that in no way reflects on all people of Jewish ancestry. If someone said negative things about the state of Rome, would you consider that to be anti-Catholic?

Much of what was said was outright lies. For example, Israel did not steal land from anybody. The Israelis were given the land by the Brits, who got it from the Ottoman empire, who stole it from the Palistinians, who got it from somebody who stole it from someone else, who got it from the Romans, who stole it from the Jews, who stole it from some other party.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 14:49
I did some research and got nowhere In a hurry on this question, what do the Israelis do differently with their m4 and m16 then we do? Do they maintain their's differently,what lube do they use, what ammo and bullet weight do they use?

Is thee something we can learn from them like cleaning,maintaining,modifying them?

I think this would be good reading personally.

The area where we can learn much from the Israeli's is not in weapons, it is in body language and human intelligence.

dhoomonyou
11-12-2012, 14:50
How about a true answer to the question and no further unrelated comments?

I agree with you OP

BUT some folks just Like to be difficult.

Or are just anti semites.

fnfalman
11-12-2012, 14:57
They got more hot chicks carrying AND they don't use $300 Gucci gears for combat.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 14:59
Much of what was said was outright lies. For example, Israel did not steal land from anybody. The Israelis were given the land by the Brits, who got it from the Ottoman empire, who stole it from the Palistinians, who got it from somebody who stole it from someone else, who got it from the Romans, who stole it from the Jews, who stole it from some other party.

While that might be true, my point is the state of Israel does not constitute the Jewish population as a whole. Therefore, while it may be anti-Israel or anti-Israeli, it is not anti-Semitic. Again, would insulting China's government be a racial assault on all Chinese people? Israel (in it's current form) is a modern state, not a race or religion.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 15:07
While that might be true, my point is the state of Israel does not constitute the Jewish population as a whole. Therefore, while it may be anti-Israel or anti-Israeli, it is not anti-Semitic. Again, would insulting China's government be a racial assault on all Chinese people? Israel (in it's current form) is a modern state, not a race or religion.

Israel was founded and is maintained as a refuge for Jews. Since that is not true of any other religion/nation, comparisons are not analogous. Furthermore, since Israel is the only nation earth that exists as a refuge for Jews and Jews have been targeted for no other reason than their faith, slights to the nation are taken as anti-semitic by most jews.

Even the US, which purports to be free of religious persecution, has more than a half a dozen groups with stated objectives that include removal of Jews from our society.

Being a Jew is much more than belonging to a race. It is race, religion, culture, family, tradition, honor, and more.... Often all roled up into one thing.

Sgt. Rambo
11-12-2012, 16:29
israel was founded and is maintained as a refuge for jews. Since that is not true of any other religion/nation, comparisons are not analogous. Furthermore, since israel is the only nation earth that exists as a refuge for jews and jews have been targeted for no other reason than their faith, slights to the nation are taken as anti-semitic by most jews.

Even the us, which purports to be free of religious persecution, has more than a half a dozen groups with stated objectives that include removal of jews from our society.

Being a jew is much more than belonging to a race. It is race, religion, culture, family, tradition, honor, and more.... Often all roled up into one thing.

+1.....

mac66
11-12-2012, 17:18
KalesniKEV's is probably one of those radicalized Mooselimbs cuz he hates Jews so much.

KalashniKEV
11-12-2012, 18:41
How is what he said in any way degrading to Jewish people?

It's very much the same way that any criticism of the President is "Racist."

To some folks, the actions of the state of Israel are beyond all criticism, just like those of BHO.

To get things back on track here though...

"Us" getting "weapons tips" from the Israelis is like Usain Bolt getting conditioning tips from Jared at Subway.

arclight610
11-12-2012, 18:47
I don't exactly know what you're asking. Are you implying that their weapons work better than ours? In my entire 5 years in the Marine Corps infantry, I've never had a stoppage in any of my M16s. In the beginning, I kept them meticulously clean. Then, I realized that they still work dirty so I quit cleaning them.

ricky
11-12-2012, 19:38
I like to learn and read and that is all believe it or not.
Sometimes a very simple question is too hard for some to realize.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 19:56
I like to learn and read and that is all believe it or not.
Sometimes a very simple question is too hard for some to realize.

I guess one thing we can learn is that they are planning to replace them with Tavors. I guess we should the M4, and the Individual Carbine competition (since it doesn't include the Tavor), because they know best!

RyanNREMTP
11-12-2012, 20:08
Fobus is the only thing I can think of but I don't think they make anything for an AR.

MrMurphy
11-12-2012, 20:35
Most the Israeli additions to the M16 series are one-off ideas from some IDF grunt and don't always work well.

They were early adopters of the rifle for everything, no SMGs (this, from the guys who designed and heavily used the Uzi) because of the weight/range involved, and they realized one 5.56mm is far more effective (from 1-200m) than half a dozen 9mm out to 100m from the same weight weapon.

They still use the Mini-Uzi in a few roles, but they went M16/M4 for everything years before we did.

They adopted combat optics before we did en masse, mostly because there's less political opposition for them to fight through, and a smaller army to equip.

Other than that..... no, they don't do much different. They're running on a limited budget and have to stick with what pretty much works, no blowing billions on the ACR/IC/Whatever-you-wanna-call-it-this-decade 'replace the M16" competition (which has now been going for 30 years). They adopted the Tavor despite getting free M16s from the US, after a lot of thought. I don't much like bullpups, but they didn't do it on a whim, and the few full-timer IDF guys I've spoken to seem to like it.

samurairabbi
11-12-2012, 21:14
The principal lesson from the Israeli experience with the M16/M4 is in the eternal Stoner/Kalashnikov superiority debate. In the late sixties, Israel chose a Kalashnikov variant, in preference to other systems including the Stoner direct gas system. In the early nineties, Israel acquired large numbers of M16s at post-cold-war surplus prices. They found the middle of the pack infantry soldier preferred the M16 to the Galil
To a great extent, those M16s became standard issue, with Galils allocated to elite and specialty units. That conclusion is the foremost lesson of the Israeli M16 experience.

vettely
11-12-2012, 21:36
I can think of a few things they do differently:

1) Go around in Status: Amber/ Condition 3 so they don't shoot themselves or each other.

2) Open beer bottles with their Galil bipods while having campfire guitar singalong time. Lots of man to man touching too.

3) Randomly and thoughtlessly cut back CAR barrels to ~10.3" and then wonder why they don't run.

4) Get free equipment, get free money. Sell free equipment to Chinese, knock off free equipment for local production, spy on our defense industry, steal land.

5) Hang junk Chinese accessories off of their free equipment. Sell junk Chinese accessories to the American consumer.

6) Use free equipment to oppress/murder the former/ rightful occupants of their stolen land.

7) Children as human shields.

8) Traffic (almost all) drugs from South America into Europe.

9) Field a huge formation of barely-trained conscripts, get their asses handed to them by Hezbollah in '06.

Oh... I just realized you were asking about AR type rifles...

#3 then.

:supergrin:

Nacho Libre; "you're a real ******".

John Biltz
11-13-2012, 01:49
There is a cognitive dissonance going on here. Israel had a big rep around the world because it kept winning while being outnumbered. The thing is Desert Storm happened and the military suddenly had a lot lower opinion of what they were fighting. As one of my troops said at the time, "If this is what the Israelis are fighting no wonder they always won." As in they truly and deeply sucked. Now if you are a vet. What your question is implying is that somehow the Israelis are these great warriors and US vets opinions don't matter because the Israelis are the real experts. Which is not the case. Its pretty much true about intelligence in that part of the world but its not true about soldiers. If you go back and read this thread again with new knowledge you may see that people were hinting at this to you. It was also mildly insulting to US vets and it was Veterans Day.

ricky
11-13-2012, 08:32
There is a cognitive dissonance going on here. Israel had a big rep around the world because it kept winning while being outnumbered. The thing is Desert Storm happened and the military suddenly had a lot lower opinion of what they were fighting. As one of my troops said at the time, "If this is what the Israelis are fighting no wonder they always won." As in they truly and deeply sucked. Now if you are a vet. What your question is implying is that somehow the Israelis are these great warriors and US vets opinions don't matter because the Israelis are the real experts. Which is not the case. Its pretty much true about intelligence in that part of the world but its not true about soldiers. If you go back and read this thread again with new knowledge you may see that people were hinting at this to you. It was also mildly insulting to US vets and it was Veterans Day.


There is nothing insulting about the question (s) whatsoever and I am a retired veteran as well, if you choose to twist my question around into something it isn't then That is on you. For the last time it was a simple question as they are one of the biggest users of that weapon system, maybe I was better off asking what the Boy Scouts use.

Everybody these days needs to twist words around to feel like a victim and it is sad that a simple question gets turned into nothing in which it was intended. I guess if I ask about roadways and hi speed driving and ask about the Germans I will be labeled a hitler lover and I approve of the holocaust, people get a life or a hobby. To those who answered the question for what it was thanks.

I remember years ago when this was a nice place to come and talk and sadly it appears as this place has been ruined by some.

KalashniKEV
11-13-2012, 08:53
There is a cognitive dissonance going on here. Israel had a big rep around the world because it kept winning while being outnumbered. The thing is Desert Storm happened and the military suddenly had a lot lower opinion of what they were fighting. As one of my troops said at the time, "If this is what the Israelis are fighting no wonder they always won." As in they truly and deeply sucked. Now if you are a vet. What your question is implying is that somehow the Israelis are these great warriors and US vets opinions don't matter because the Israelis are the real experts. Which is not the case. Its pretty much true about intelligence in that part of the world but its not true about soldiers. If you go back and read this thread again with new knowledge you may see that people were hinting at this to you. It was also mildly insulting to US vets and it was Veterans Day.

Which is pretty much what I was getting at with my Jared-at-Subway comment.

...don't forget too that the majority of their "fighting" is committed against the most broken and desperate among those people, living in a "papers, please" society after they have been herded into their ghettos and denied the means to properly resist.

...and also don't forget that we pour taxpayer money all over them every day when the sun comes up, and when they really get themselves into a jam, the floodgates truly open.

...but to get this thread back on topic again... If the Israelis ever choose to field a professional military instead of a crowd of conscripts, they will be asking us for advice, not the other way around.

Today's military is the best that has ever existed. Yes, better than the "Greatest Generation" too.

daddysnapmuffins
11-13-2012, 11:44
Which is pretty much what I was getting at with my Jared-at-Subway comment.

...don't forget too that the majority of their "fighting" is committed against the most broken and desperate among those people, living in a "papers, please" society after they have been herded into their ghettos and denied the means to properly resist.

...and also don't forget that we pour taxpayer money all over them every day when the sun comes up, and when they really get themselves into a jam, the floodgates truly open.

...but to get this thread back on topic again... If the Israelis ever choose to field a professional military instead of a crowd of conscripts, they will be asking us for advice, not the other way around.

Today's military is the best that has ever existed. Yes, better than the "Greatest Generation" too.

We give countries to include ones like Egypt millions and up to billions of dollars annually too. You sound like a guy who is bitter about getting a bad deal on real estate or got his girlfriend taken by a guy named greenberg. Keep taking shots on Israel then at the end stay "now back on topic" and we'll just keeptaking shots at you.

humanguerrilla
11-13-2012, 12:06
I can think of a few things they do differently:
1) Go around in Status: Amber/ Condition 3 so they don't shoot themselves or each other.


IDF safety regs for rifle carry is magazine out but at the ready in easy reach. This is the reason for the Israeli mag block accessory that holds the magazine. Pistol carry is Israeli carry, amber/condition 3.

They do make it look good though...and pesky magazines do just tend to get in the way.

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn460/humanguerrilla/telaviv.png

ChuteTheMall
11-13-2012, 12:11
Longer, simpler 2 point slings.

Olive drab uniforms instead of gucciflage camo.

Israeli bandages.

Teenage girls with rifles.

Rarely if ever deployed more than 300 miles from home.

Lulas.

Often get Saturdays off.

Tick off anti-semites.

samurairabbi
11-13-2012, 14:26
...but to get this thread back on topic again... If the Israelis ever choose to field a professional military instead of a crowd of conscripts, they will be asking us for advice, not the other way around.

An important word is missing from your statement. Israel uses UNIVERSAL conscription; its military is therefore an accurate reflection of its society. In such a situation, the distinction between professional and conscript loses most of its meaning

Bren
11-13-2012, 14:53
Save the anti-Semitism for the PI issues forum. Freaking morons.

So anybody who doesn't think the Israelis are the good guys is anti-semitic? Is that like how anybody who didn't vote for Obama is racist?

jp3975
11-13-2012, 19:28
What are they doing with their m16s? Trading them in for Tavors. The Tavor will be sold in the US next year. Save up if you want to do it Israeli style. Seems like its going to be really nice. Im thinking of getting one if ive got the $$$$.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Xx2yCbmgp-c