Rifle X vs. Colt [Archive] - Glock Talk

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WayaX
11-12-2012, 11:21
These seem to be popping up more and more after the election, and there seems to be a common theme here. If you have to ask the question "is this rifle better than Colt?". You're probably better off getting the Colt.

Why?

Scenario 1. You're new to shooting and have been duped into believing "they all come from the same place" or Rifle X is what the local gun store is pushing. So you come to your favorite internet forum to get an opinion. Here you get responses in general.

One person says they have Rifle X and it has been amazing and will defend that it is just as good as Colt. Several people will tell you to evaluate your needs and purchase accordingly. The last set of people will just cut to the chase and say buy the Colt.

The fact is, that in the same price range ($800-$1100), Colts are the best value for an M4 pattern rifle with a few exceptions that I can count on one hand. There are "hobby grade" rifles at a significantly lower price point, and some of these represent a good deal (like the M&P sport), but a simple google search will show where they different from a Colt. In short, for an M4-pattern rifle, Colt takes the cake. For any other configuration in the $800-$1100 range, BCM, Daniel Defense, and LMT are the only companies I'd consider. Other companies, Bushmaster, RRA, etc, fall in this price range, but aren't of the same proven quality as those previously mentioned. It's for this reason that I don't recommend them.

Let's move on to the other, much less common, scenario.

Scenario 2. You're new, but like fancy things (who can blame you), and so you want the best rifle you can buy. You've done some research and have found something like the KAC SR-15. At this point, I feel that if you have to ask the question KAC SR-15 or Colt, than you would benefit more from a Colt, a case of ammo, and some instruction, than from a super fancy rifle. This may be where I differ from a lot of people, but a high-end rifle does not automatically make you able to shoot worth a damn.

So, therefore, if you have to ask the question Rifle X vs. Colt, the answer should be Colt.

I just wanted to get that off my chest.

Gunnut 45/454
11-12-2012, 12:14
I have to disagree some what. If we still were working with what we had back in the 70-80s as far as AR makers ! I would agree completely. But we are not we have alot more choice now then we ever had back then. And Colt knew it an people (civies) paid the price for them having almost a complete monopoly. Now that Colt is not the number one supplier for the Government they have found out you can't piss down the backs of us Civies. There are plenty of quality AR makers out there. Colt maybe the measure for which all are judged by but that doesn't mean they are the best there is. I will qualify my remarks yes I've have used owned Colts, yes lots of Mil experience with them. No I do not currently own a Colt! Yes I do own AR's. Yes they function and shoot just as good as any Colt:supergrin:

txgunguy
11-12-2012, 12:19
Colt is not the end all be all. Plenty of weapons in the same price range with same quality or better IMO.

BCM, PSA, and Spikes all come to mind.

Just recently a friend ordered an upper from aimsurplus with a DD cold hammer forged lightweight barrel, blind marked spikes upper, nickel boron bcg with mpi/hpt bolt, and Moe handguards for 499 shipped. That's a high end upper for a great price. Daniel Defense barrels are around $300 by themselves.

Even if you buy a complete lower for it, you save around $200 over a complete colt m4.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 12:39
1100 is 38% more than 800, so the Colt costs substantially more than an $800 rifle.

Also, the S&W Sport is made from the same materials as the top of the line S&W rifles, so your reference to it being a "hobby grade" rifle reflects that your ignorance encompasses more than just your math skills.

Moving right along, we get to the fact that PSA M4 equivilants, the S&W Sport, and a few others are in the $600-700 price range. This illlustrates that your entire premise rests on a deception about the prices of many competing rifles.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 12:47
WayaX, good post. It's obvious you don't believe Colt is the end all be all yet some have already began to throw that BS around. People will defend their purchase to the very end regardless of how much sense you make.

In our Walmart/Disposable society people are blind to value and only care about the cost.

Colt 6920's can be had for under $1k.

When I order something and pay hundreds if not thousands for it I want to know it'll be delivered as advertised. BCM, Colt, DD consistantly deliver time after time. That means a lot and says a lot about those companies. Time is expensive. I don't have the time to screw around w/ shipping items back and forth hoping the company gets it right "this time."

Some people just don't care as it's the bottom dollar that most concerns them. Those are also the ones who don't spend money on ammunition and training. They then come on forums and spew, "just as good."

How many times have threads been created to express dissatisfaction w/ PSA in all forms from shipping times, wrong parts shipped, messed up feed ramps, canted FSPs, etc. Now ask yourself the same question about BCM, DD, and Colt.

boomhower
11-12-2012, 12:50
Colts are good but your also limiting your options. For instance, I prefer midlength gas for a variety of reasons. How many midlength rifles does Colt sell? Colt is fine fine weapon but if you want something other than what they offer you have to look elsewhere. For me, it's Daniel Defense. $150 more and I got midlength gas, high quality rail, and high quality BUIS. The rail alone more than makes up the difference in cost.

RatDrall
11-12-2012, 12:50
So, therefore, if you have to ask the question Rifle X vs. Colt, the answer should be Colt.



This is rediculous.

People know about Colt because they've been around for so long and the name is well recognized. All a noob can do is go with what they know, which is little, but likely includes the Colt mythology. They need information to help them understandy, over simplifying everything with "Just buy Colt don't ask questions!" doesn't help anyone, except for Colt.

Asking "is brand x as good as Colt" will get a different answer depending on Brand X, when asked of an honest and knowledgable person. If someone could get a Noveske for the same price as a Colt, the answer would be buy the Noveske. If they ask about a BCM or DD vs the Colt, the answer is more dependant on if they want a mid length gas system, free floating rail with a low pro' gas block, etc.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 12:58
This is rediculous.

People know about Colt because they've been around for so long and the name is well recognized. All a noob can do is go with what they know, which is little, but likely includes the Colt mythology. They need information to help them understandy, over simplifying everything with "Just buy Colt don't ask questions!" doesn't help anyone, except for Colt.

Asking "is brand x as good as Colt" will get a different answer depending on Brand X, when asked of an honest and knowledgable person. If someone could get a Noveske for the same price as a Colt, the answer would be buy the Noveske. If they ask about a BCM or DD vs the Colt, the answer is more dependant on if they want a mid length gas system, free floating rail with a low pro' gas block, etc.

And the lousy customer service at Colt is as legendary as anything else Colt offers.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:00
WayaX, good post. It's obvious you don't believe Colt is the end all be all yet some have already began to throw that BS around. People will defend their purchase to the very end regardless of how much sense you make.

In our Walmart/Disposable society people are blind to value and only care about the cost.

Colt 6920's can be had for under $1k.

When I order something and pay hundreds if not thousands for it I want to know it'll be delivered as advertised. BCM, Colt, DD consistantly deliver time after time. That means a lot and says a lot about those companies. Time is expensive. I don't have the time to screw around w/ shipping items back and forth hoping the company gets it right "this time."

Some people just don't care as it's the bottom dollar that most concerns them. Those are also the ones who don't spend money on ammunition and training. They then come on forums and spew, "just as good."

If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more tomspend on training!

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:07
WayaX, good post. It's obvious you don't believe Colt is the end all be all yet some have already began to throw that BS around. People will defend their purchase to the very end regardless of how much sense you make.

Correct. I don't think Colt is the end-all be all by any means. My post is geared toward people new in the AR-15 area. In fact, I hold BCM as a higher standard than Colt in many ways, but they are not readily available for the new purchaser, whereas a Colt is available at Wal-Mart.

1100 is 38% more than 800, so the Colt costs substantially more than an $800 rifle.

Also, the S&W Sport is made from the same materials as the top of the line S&W rifles, so your reference to it being a "hobby grade" rifle reflects that your ignorance encompasses more than just your math skills.

Moving right along, we get to the fact that PSA M4 equivilants, the S&W Sport, and a few others are in the $600-700 price range. This illlustrates that your entire premise rests on a deception about the prices of many competing rifles.

How is it a deception? There are good rifles in the $600-$700 price range that suite most people's needs. That isn't my point. My post is referring to when someone compares something to a Colt. If they make a comparison, then you assume they're willing to plunk down at least the cost of a Colt. When you look at other rifles that sit beside a Colt in a gun store in a similar price range (Windham, Bushmaster, RRA, Sig), the Colt is clearly the better value, even if it is $200 more than the others. If the others were priced at $600-700, then they would represent an okay value. At $800, I feel they do not. These are the rifles that most often get compared to Colt, as they are most common in stores.


Colt is not the end all be all. Plenty of weapons in the same price range with same quality or better IMO.

BCM, PSA, and Spikes all come to mind.

Just recently a friend ordered an upper from aimsurplus with a DD cold hammer forged lightweight barrel, blind marked spikes upper, nickel boron bcg with mpi/hpt bolt, and Moe handguards for 499 shipped. That's a high end upper for a great price. Daniel Defense barrels are around $300 by themselves.

Even if you buy a complete lower for it, you save around $200 over a complete colt m4.

Many problems arise from inexperienced people throwing together parts or buying new companies builds. This is nothing against AIM suprlus, because I believe they are a good company, but their track record in assembling AR-15 uppers is unknown. Just as we are getting more options for good rifles, there are an equal number of people trying to capitalize on the boom who have no experience or qualifications to do so. I stand that anyone new to AR's should stick to factory made weapons for their first rifle. PSA is quickly proving that you get what you pay for, for the cost of their rifles, if you get a good one, you got a bargain. They've shown, however, that they are a prime example of people getting into the AR-15 world that have no experience selling rifles.

BCM is no longer significantly cheaper than Colt (if cheaper at all). BCM is also not a brand considered by many new shooters, due to it not being widely carried in stores. I actually prefer BCM to Colt, if only because of the options available. My post was geared toward new shooters, mostly drawn in due to the election. For most of these people, BCM is not an option.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:09
If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more tomspend on training!

If they can get a good deal on an M&P sport, and spend the rest on training, I would say absolutely, 100%, go for it. That's not my point.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:14
Asking "is brand x as good as Colt" will get a different answer depending on Brand X, when asked of an honest and knowledgable person. If someone could get a Noveske for the same price as a Colt, the answer would be buy the Noveske. If they ask about a BCM or DD vs the Colt, the answer is more dependant on if they want a mid length gas system, free floating rail with a low pro' gas block, etc.

Most knowledgeable people in AR-15's don't ask the "rifle vs rifle" questions. If you notice, [DD/LMT/BCM] vs. Colt doesn't come up often. Usually the people asking these questions went to a local gun store, saw the common brands of rifles sitting on the rack, and is trying to figure out what one is better.

The point of this thread isn't "is brand x better than a Colt?". The point is, if you have to ask the question, then the answer will usually be Colt.

mvician
11-12-2012, 13:17
If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more to spend on training!

What we actually see more often than the "saved" money being spent on training is the money being spent on cheap crap accessories to make the rifle "cool".

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:18
WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:21
If they can get a good deal on an M&P sport, and spend the rest on training, I would say absolutely, 100%, go for it. That's not my point.


Economics is the study of how people and nations use limited resources in an attempt to satisfy unlimited wants. Any discussion about cost has got to include alternate uses for the customers money.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:21
WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.

Sportsman's Warehouse, and Wal-Mart are both selling Colt's, several local gun stores sell them around here as well. This thread isn't about Colt being the best choice for all people.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:23
What we actually see more often than the "saved" money being spent on training is the money being spent on cheap crap accessories to make the rifle "cool".

That's absolutely true, but an entirely different can of worms.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:23
What we actually see more often than the "saved" money being spent on training is the money being spent on cheap crap accessories to make the rifle "cool".

My experience would indicate:

Magazines
Ammo
Optics
Case or sling
Other crap
Training

In that order, more or less.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 13:23
If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more tomspend on training!

The customer that purchases the $700 rifle does so because he's looking for the cheapest rifle because he's just going to "plink" at the farm. I do realize there is always an exception to every rule. That is not the end user that is going to seak formal instruction or spend money on enough ammunition to become familiar w/ that new AR. That AR is going to sit in the safe all but a couple weekends a year.

_____________________________

I went to PSA's site and it looks like a PSA M4-ish MOE AR is on sale for $869.99. The Colt MOE version is $1055.00. Almost $200 difference in price if you don't take into account that the Colt comes w/ 2 PMags.

Not worth the $185.01 (minus the price of a PMag) saved.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:26
The customer that purchases the $700 rifle does so because he's looking for the cheapest rifle because he's just going to "plink" at the farm. I do realize there is always an exception to every rule. That is not the end user that is going to seak formal instruction or spend money on enough ammunition to become familiar w/ that new AR. That AR is going to sit in the safe all but a couple weekends a year.

_____________________________

I went to PSA's site and it looks like a PSA M4-ish MOE AR is on sale for $869.99. The Colt MOE version is $1055.00. Almost $200 difference in price if you don't take into account that the Colt comes w/ 2 PMags.

Not worth the $185.01 (minus the price of a PMag) saved.

Back when there were nothing but junk rifles in the $700 range, that would concern me. Now that there are viable alternatives for as low as $700, I take no issue with a buyer who saves a few $.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:28
Back when there were nothing but junk rifles in the $700 range, that would concern me. Now that there are viable alternatives for as low as $700, I take no issue with a buyer who saves a few $.

Your argument for good rifles in the $700 range is deceptive then, too. I don't see PSA, Spikes, or M&P Sports locally. Therefore the argument of good rifles in the $700 range must be a lie.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 13:30
I want to see links to the $700 complete rifles.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:32
Sportsman's Warehouse, and Wal-Mart are both selling Colt's, several local gun stores sell them around here as well. This thread isn't about Colt being the best choice for all people.

Once again, you make the erroneous assumption that every market is the same as the market where you are. It simply is not that way. In the markets where the shipping and FFL fees make a Colt cost $100 more than one costs in your area, while other brands are sitting on the shelf for $300-$400 less, the value/trade off equation shifts.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:35
Double tap

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:36
Your argument for good rifles in the $700 range is deceptive then, too. I don't see PSA, Spikes, or M&P Sports locally. Therefore the argument of good rifles in the $700 range must be a lie.

In your area, Colt rifles may be the way to go. I did not write that $700 rifles were best for everyone. Once again, you are distorting the truth.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 13:40
In your area, Colt rifles may be the way to go. I did not write that $700 rifles were best for everyone.

And I didn't write that Colt's were. In fact, if a Colt 6920 went above $1200, I would say that there are many better deals. With the election behind us and the panic buying possibly starting, and people jacking Colts up to $1900 like before, then a Colt would certainly not be a good choice. So yes, everything does hinge on price and availability.

Matthew Courtney
11-12-2012, 13:49
And I didn't write that Colt's were. In fact, if a Colt 6920 went above $1200, I would say that there are many better deals. With the election behind us and the panic buying possibly starting, and people jacking Colts up to $1900 like before, then a Colt would certainly not be a good choice. So yes, everything does hinge on price and availability.

Uh, when you wrote that in deciding between rifle x and a colt, the x did not represent a variable of a rifle of a differing brand? You did not put forth the conclusion that the Colt was always the better choice?

Within the very broad parameters of 800-1100 bucks, that is exactly what you wrote. I am glad to see you getting to the point where you acknowledge that availability, as well as $100 difference in price, can change the trade-off equation enough to allow other choices to be considered rational.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 14:03
Uh, when you wrote that in deciding between rifle x and a colt, the x did not represent a variable of a rifle of a differing brand? You did not put forth the conclusion that the Colt was always the better choice?

Within the very broad parameters of 800-1100 bucks, that is exactly what you wrote. I am glad to see you getting to the point where you acknowledge that availability, as well as $100 difference in price, can change the trade-off equation enough to allow other choices to be considered rational.

My point is that if that people who make threads of "brand x vs. Colt" are better off picking the Colt between the two. This assumes, in making the thread, that a Colt is not a monetary stretch, is available (and associated costs of shipping have been factored in). Threads that compare M&P sports to Colts (not your testing thread), are not common, as the Sport and Colt are typically marketed to two different groups of people.

While I would never buy something like an M&P sport, I actually really appreciate what they do for the AR-15 community. The more people involved in "black rifles" the better.

Other companies, such as Windham, try to market themselves as "as good as" Colts, when in reality, they are most likely not (due to a variety of reasons). It's these threads that I state that the only choice, between the two, is Colt.

Most of the "brand x vs. Colt" threads are usually like this. Some local gun being sold at a hideous mark up ($800 Bushmaster/DPMS/RRA) has been touted by an employee as being good quality, but some poor sap has also heard that Colt makes "the best" M4. Money savings or not, paying $800 for a "mid-tier" rifle, when better are available in the $600-$700 range AFTER shipping and fees, is like paying $30,000 for a Hyundai.

I got my $800 part because there is a cap in what I consider to be good rifles between $800-900. Generally there are good bargains for plinking rifles in the $600-$70 range, but once you hit the $800 mark, things don't become worth the cost.

LA_357SIG
11-12-2012, 19:27
Firearms technology has improved since the 1990's when the M4 was developed. Colt may hold the title of "minimum standard" but there are companies that match and exceed that standard. The standards that Colt and the Army developed and subsequent revisions were applicable for the FA/3RB M4 and successors. Issues civilian AR-15's will rarely encounter. For the life of me, I can't understand as much impact as "the chart" had on 1. the AR-15 industry, 2. the mindset of the AR-15 community, why the complimentary material goes ignored.

The ONLY value I saw out of M4C.net and the chart was "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better! (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376) So much valuable information in that post, yet the whole "tier 1" (for lack of a better term) elitist still forcefeed Colt/LMT/BCM/DD/KAC and attack anyone who doesn't agree.

As far as value in the Colt 6920 price range...? Yeah, for +/- $1000 it is the best value around for outdated technology. IMO a 4140 midlength upper on a forged lower with a MIL-STD receiver extension and BCG PROPERLY ASSEMBLED under $1000 will be a better value than than any Colt 6920.

WayaX
11-12-2012, 19:34
Firearms technology has improved since the 1990's when the M4 was developed. Colt may hold the title of "minimum standard" but there are companies that match and exceed that standard. The standards that Colt and the Army developed and subsequent revisions were applicable for the FA/3RB M4 and successors. Issues civilian AR-15's will rarely encounter. For the life of me, I can't understand as much impact as "the chart" had on 1. the AR-15 industry, 2. the mindset of the AR-15 community, why the complimentary material goes ignored.

The ONLY value I saw out of M4C.net and the chart was "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better! (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376) So much valuable information in that post, yet the whole "tier 1" (for lack of a better term) elitist still forcefeed Colt/LMT/BCM/DD/KAC and attack anyone who doesn't agree.

As far as value in the Colt 6920 price range...? Yeah, for +/- $1000 it is the best value around for outdated technology. IMO a 4140 midlength upper on a forged lower with a MIL-STD receiver extension and BCG PROPERLY ASSEMBLED under $1000 will be a better value than than any Colt 6920.

The chart had mixed benefits. On one hand, it allowed people to be informed of what they were buying. On the other hand, it caused manufacturers to cater toward the bare minimum for that "check" in the chart. The result was many manufacturers touting themselves as "mil-spec" even though other corners were still cut.

If there was a rifle that was identical to a Colt in every other way but gas-length and barrel, it may be a better deal. There, to my knowledge, is not. Most of the other companies have issues with chamber specs and gas port sizes (among a myriad of other things) while still meeting all those things on the "chart" that so many people put faith in.

LA_357SIG
11-12-2012, 20:15
Maybe saying "better value than any Colt 6920" isn't the idea I wanted to convey. A better terminology is a midlength upper with a melonited or treated medium profile barrel, quality 158CS BCG, MIL-STD receiver extension, properly assembled for less than $1000 would be an excellent value for a civilian over the antiquated carbine length Colt 6920.

I'll leave my original post unedited, but all who focus on the "better than Colt" remark be forewarned. I don't care. Knock yourself out.

Walk Soft
11-12-2012, 20:45
I was the author of one of those threads.(WW or Colt).I'm knowledgeable about pistols and bolt action guns because that's what I practice with and utilize.Even though I had two AK varients and two ARs(DoubleStar and DPMS) before I posed the question,I never really had that much interest in them.They were just a base I covered in my gun ownership.Once I realized the possibility of not being able to buy another in the future,I decided to get a higher quality AR.
Genuinely not knowing what was what is why I asked.I've since purchased a ColtLE6920 and put 800 rounds through the iron sights.Now I'm pondering a new thread "Aimpoint vs. Vortex".
Sorry to have pissed in your Cheerios.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 20:55
I'd like to see an Aimpoint Vs. Vortex. It would be interesting.

Walk Soft
11-12-2012, 21:06
I'd like to see an Aimpoint Vs. Vortex. It would be interesting.

I actually already own both(Aimpoint Pro and Vortex Strikefire).I just got the Pro a couple weeks ago.I just thought it fitting.:rofl:Honestly, I can't tell the difference functionally,except that the Pro's batterys last longer and the Vortex has a screw on 3x magnifier.

mjkeat
11-12-2012, 21:38
I'm not sure what Vortex you have but I'm sure there are a few more differences than longer battery life. I'm a fan of Vortex. Their magnified optics are a great value. But the Aimpoints duraility and othe features are yet to be topped.

QNman
11-12-2012, 22:55
WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.

I bought my first Colt (though not my first AR) this past Saturday... At Wal Mart. :whistling:

Big Bird
11-13-2012, 04:14
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...

LL6
11-13-2012, 08:11
Well said BB. :thumbsup:

cyphertext
11-13-2012, 09:56
I want to see links to the $700 complete rifles.

This one went up $20 in the past few days, but still ball park.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-16-m4-premium-carbine.html

Out of stock at the moment, but typically found for $600 - $650

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=811036

GSSF17
11-13-2012, 10:32
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...

Perfect.

/thread

ArmoryDoc
11-13-2012, 10:57
For a shooter wanting the best, consistent quality in an AR, it's the following...

Colt, BCM, LMT, Larue, Noveske, Daniel Defense (no particular order).

The other "common" mfg.'s are below the quality mentioned above. For anyone "serious" about getting the better gun, the above is it.

Walk Soft
11-13-2012, 11:04
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...

So why even have a Black Rifle Forum if we can't discuss the idiosyncracies of them?

LL6
11-13-2012, 11:16
So why even have a Black Rifle Forum if we can't discuss the idiosyncracies of them?
Because they don't stay as discussions they turn into flame fests.

Gunnut 45/454
11-13-2012, 11:17
Big Bird
I personally have never shot out a rifle other then a 22LR that I got when I was 16. It final gave up the ghoust last year. It actually isn't shot out had a internal part break and can't be fixed- rifle actually still shoots an is still as accurate as the day I bought it -with probably with over 100000 rounds down the pipe. Now I've shot some M16's that were very much used. Still fuctional. But well used. Still never stopped me from quailifing as Marksman. Most people will never shoot out a rifle . I personally don't worry about that. With most AR's rated for 20000+ rounds 99% of AR owners will not either!:supergrin:

M&P15T
11-13-2012, 11:19
Because they don't stay as discussions they turn into flame fests.

"Yes they do!!!"

"No they don't"

"I said they do.....so shut up!"

"Screw you dude, I'm not gonna shut up....YOU shut up!!"

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

LL6
11-13-2012, 11:37
I think some people are taking what BB said the wrong way. Rather than arguing about fly speck enjoy your damn rifles and shoot them.

Also what Gunnut said reminded me of 1979 basic training at Ft Dicks, NJ the only place I vividly remember seeing worn out M16s. My lizard of an M16 barely had any finish left on it. Don't remember the rifling well enough to comment. You could measure the degree of left to right slop between the upper and lower receivers almost in double digits. It was so loose it rattled and clattered when slung over my shoulder during road marches, but it shot well. At least well enough for me to shoot expert on silhouette targets out to 300yds (or was it meters?).

The good ol days. :smoking:

LA_357SIG
11-13-2012, 15:28
While we are here already, here's a direct price comparison:

$1097 Colt 6920 from Walmart. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$1099 Troy Defense Carbine from DICK's Sporting Goods. C/L CMV barrel
$1099 (MSRP) BCM M4 Carbine Mod 0 11595-E C/L spec barrel
$865 (MSRP) ST-15 16" M4 LE Carbine direct from SPIKES. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$799 (MSRP) PSA M4 Premium MOE Carbine direct from PSA. C/L CMV barrel.

So 2 carbines for $2 over the going rate for a Colt 6920, One exactly the same (BCM) and another one with a CMV barrel and lots of aftermarket accessories (TROY), why is Colt the better choice "if you have to ask?" 2 other brands costing less than the 6920, one with the exact same specs (SPIKE's) and the other with a CMV barrel (PSA) costing $230 less. Colt may be "the minimum standard," but aside from CMV barrels, I don't see the value/cost of buying a plain jane Colt over anything else available on the market today. I truly believe CMV barrels will outlast even the most enthusiastic civilian shooters needs, so getting "the best military standard" barrel isn't on the high list of importance to me. IMO

Big Bird
11-13-2012, 18:07
While we are here already, here's a direct price comparison:

$1097 Colt 6920 from Walmart. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$1099 Troy Defense Carbine from DICK's Sporting Goods. C/L CMV barrel
$1099 (MSRP) BCM M4 Carbine Mod 0 11595-E C/L spec barrel
$865 (MSRP) ST-15 16" M4 LE Carbine direct from SPIKES. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$799 (MSRP) PSA M4 Premium MOE Carbine direct from PSA. C/L CMV barrel.

So 2 carbines for $2 over the going rate for a Colt 6920, One exactly the same (BCM) and another one with a CMV barrel and lots of aftermarket accessories (TROY), why is Colt the better choice "if you have to ask?" 2 other brands costing less than the 6920, one with the exact same specs (SPIKE's) and the other with a CMV barrel (PSA) costing $230 less. Colt may be "the minimum standard," but aside from CMV barrels, I don't see the value/cost of buying a plain jane Colt over anything else available on the market today. I truly believe CMV barrels will outlast even the most enthusiastic civilian shooters needs, so getting "the best military standard" barrel isn't on the high list of importance to me. IMO

Don't know if they still have them but PSA had an M4 clone WITH an Aimpoint PRO and Mount all for $999.

I just built a gun on a PSA lower with a PSA/FN made barrel/BCM Blemished upper/and LMT enhanced bolt w/ std carrier. . The upper had been flawless on my old Bushhamster lower. I've got three guns I built using Noveske lowers and I gotta tell ya...the PSA blem lower I used on my latest rifle at $59 looks to be on par with the $199 Noveske lowers. It certainly went together without issues. In terms of finish there certainly isn't $150 difference--really not a .05 difference from what I can see.

mvician
11-13-2012, 18:23
For the most part, a in spec forged lower is a in spec forged lower. It's what you put in them that matters.

Big Bird
11-13-2012, 18:27
I guess what I'm telling you folks is when you have seen as many broken and worn out Colt rifles as I have you quickly realize they really aren't much different than any other AR. Sorry if that upsets your apple cart. But I've got experience with the things that runs into the hundreds of rifles, dozens and dozens of qualification ranges, two combat tours etc. Colt's as good as it gets when it comes to ARs--but there are a ton of rifles that are as good with uppers and lowers made by the same foundries, BCG's made by the same contractors, pins and springs made by the same sub contractors etc for not as much money.

I piss off the AK fans too when I tell them how many hundreds of abandoned/inoperable AK's I have come across on the battlefield or taken from prisoners. You know--the gun that never breaks--always functions--and a monkey can maintain. The AK isn't the infallible pillar of reliability its made out to be--least not from what I've seen.

Gunnut 45/454
11-14-2012, 00:23
LL6
Hell my trainer at Basic didn't have a lick of finish on it '80! The only thing black was the buttstock. And that was cause they had just replaced it cause it was cracked!:rofl:

LL6
11-14-2012, 05:12
Those were some worn out rifles.

A-1-3 SSGs Rivera and Sampson were my drills.

fuzzy03cls
11-14-2012, 08:34
I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 09:33
I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.

How so? Details please. We can throw out "just as good as" all day but it means nothing w/o details.

Just because something will "do the job" doesn't mean it is as good as everything else. I had a guy that would get the job done but he took coaching and I wasn't always certain he'd actually get it done correctly or in a timely manner. I had guys who could get the job done as well but didn't require coaching. In fact I would tell them once and know the job was getting done in stellar fashion each and every time. Theres different levels of "do the job."

P99er
11-14-2012, 09:47
I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.

I've heard the same from people I know.

Oddly enough, from the shooter perspective, if there aren't any physical differences like hand guards or length, you cannot really tell whether you are shooting Bushmaster, RR, Colt, or BCM.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 11:54
I've heard the same from people I know.

Oddly enough, from the shooter perspective, if there aren't any physical differences like hand guards or length, you cannot really tell whether you are shooting Bushmaster, RR, Colt, or BCM.

What experiences bring you to that conclusion?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

cowboy1964
11-14-2012, 12:02
Where can I buy a Colt for $800?

cowboy1964
11-14-2012, 12:09
How many times have threads been created to express dissatisfaction w/ PSA in all forms from shipping times, wrong parts shipped, messed up feed ramps, canted FSPs, etc. Now ask yourself the same question about BCM, DD, and Colt.

I've seen plenty of threads about shipping problems with PSA. I've seen very few about actual quality problems with their products. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but there are for ALL manufacturers if you really wanna look.

mixflip
11-14-2012, 12:11
This **** again?

I guess when you've been in the black rifle game for 50 years this is bound to happen. No, Colt isnt the best. They are just the most combat proven and that in itself is worth the price to some people.

fallenangelhim
11-14-2012, 12:23
I truly believe your use will dictate your need. "The best" is different for different people. Some people, like myself, like the idea of owning a military replica. But some other people just want to be able to plink and if their rifle shoots as many bullets down range as my Colt without failure then it is the best for them. I know I will never need a go to war gun because I personally will not go to war (political theories and uprisings aside).

Is Colt better than x, y, and z? Depends on who you ask and who is paying. My guns are the best for me because I was able to afford them and can play with them. At one point a Glock pistol was the best for me because it was all I knew and could afford. Now I think it's a Sig or any American 1911. Tomorrow it might be an HK or an FN. But it's the best to me because it fits my needs and financial requirements.

Who cares what other people are buying. Leave them alone.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 13:12
Who cares what other people are buying. Leave them alone.


There are 2 sides to this debate:

People who believe the Colt M4 TDP is the minimum standard for AR15's may be used in a life or death situation, and people that think AR15's built below that standard are just as good as those built to the minimum standard.

In reality, on a civilian owned semi auto AR, the military standard isn't necessary. I believe a properly assembled AR15 with a CMV (not 4140 as I stated in this thread) barrel, quality BCG, 7075T receiver extension and some degree of competent maintenance will be "just as good" as any internet commando approved brand AR15.

TedG
11-14-2012, 13:15
I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.


Wow. Instead of having all those rifles, you could have just kept the 6920 since you KNOW it did everything as the standard to be measured against..

fuzzy03cls
11-14-2012, 14:02
I could but also wanted different configurations like a rifle length , mid length, 14.5.

I never said anything was any better then anything else. I'm simply pointing out that X brand doesn't always means it's better then X brand. And that has been MY experience.
How so? Details please. We can throw out "just as good as" all day but it means nothing w/o details.

Just because something will "do the job" doesn't mean it is as good as everything else.Am I in a war zone where I may need to fire FA or burst?
Am I a Swat officer that may need to rescue hostages?
Am I in any way in any job that may need the MP testing? The CL barrel? The FA BCG?
No. I'm a normal person like most of the forum members are.
Yes it will do the job for my needs. And I think my own testing of parts & setup proves that to me.
It's always the same argument from pro tier 1 guys... gets old.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 19:29
I could but also wanted different configurations like a rifle length , mid length, 14.5.

In time you'll look at those different "configurations" sitting in the safe and realize you've wasted good ammo money on redundancy and that the 16" you use most often does everything all the other rifles do. Been there myself. Collecting gets old.

I never said anything was any better then anything else. I'm simply pointing out that X brand doesn't always means it's better then X brand. And that has been MY experience.
Am I in a war zone where I may need to fire FA or burst?
Am I a Swat officer that may need to rescue hostages?
Am I in any way in any job that may need the MP testing? The CL barrel? The FA BCG?
No. I'm a normal person like most of the forum members are.
Yes it will do the job for my needs. And I think my own testing of parts & setup proves that to me.
It's always the same argument from pro tier 1 guys... gets old.

So lets settle for lower quality. If it works for you so be it.

When I asked for details I ment round count, shooting habits, was your DPMS ran through classes, etc. What testing? I wasn't asking for the lame "not going to war" "tier 1 guys" defense.

txgunguy
11-14-2012, 22:44
I've seen plenty of threads about shipping problems with PSA. I've seen very few about actual quality problems with their products. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but there are for ALL manufacturers if you really wanna look.

The quality is there, even though many people refuse to believe it. Their barrels are made by FN. I suspect their other parts may very well be too. That's just my suspicion. Why would they get barrels from FN and nothing else?

I bought a PSA bcg when they were $99. It's sitting in my BCM upper ::GASP::! That bolt has ran and ran.

fuzzy03cls
11-15-2012, 09:29
In time you'll look at those different "configurations" sitting in the safe and realize you've wasted good ammo money on redundancy and that the 16" you use most often does everything all the other rifles do. Been there myself. Collecting gets old
Which is why I sold off most of it.
And read my posts I say what the rifles went through. Yes to classes, Yes to steel case ammo, Yes to no cleaning, Yes to thousands of rounds.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 23:44
Which is why I sold off most of it.
And read my posts I say what the rifles went through. Yes to classes, Yes to steel case ammo, Yes to no cleaning, Yes to thousands of rounds.

I went back through the thread and couldn't find any of that.

It doesn't matter anyway as most will never push their ARs far enough to see the difference. They'll continue to pay equal amounts of money for sub-par quality as it's good enough for their needs. Then defend their purchase w/ "not going to war" when people ask why they'd spen d the same amount of money on lower quality.

joecoastie
11-16-2012, 09:39
First of all I am not an "AR expert" in any way shape or form. My professional experience consists of taking a Colt M16A2 to the range every 6 months for qualifications, our M16s basically never leave the armory other than for qualifications.

Anyways, it seems to me a lot of this brand stuff could be settled by people being honest with themselves as to what type of rifle will meet their needs. I feel like Surf's sticky lays all this out rather well. In my opinion not everyone needs a high end AR. Now if you want the best money can buy just because that's what you want, then go for it. After assessing my needs I realized a S&W Sport was ideal for me and was significantly cheaper than a Colt.

So not everyone needs a Colt, however a lot of people settle for a different brand when for maybe $100 more they could have had a Colt and if nothing else had better resale value. A DPMS/Bushmaster/RRA/PSA/Sport/Etc for $7-800 as opposed to a Colt for $1000-1100? Yeah I might go for one of those other brands, but anymore those other brands are (except the Sport) in the $900-1000 so why not get the Colt?

chief63
11-16-2012, 10:31
I didn't get the Colt because its not what I wanted. I served 30 years and pounded plenty of sand. If the "SHTF" in suburbia USA I'm probably good to go with an $800 M&PT. If not there will be plenty of internet commando Colts laying around.

The only things I buy MILSPEC are toilet seats and hammers. And toilet paper.

glock031
11-16-2012, 10:41
Can someone explain why milspec is refered to as the minimum standard? I've been seeing this statement being posted a lot.

I would think that milspec is the standard that evolved that best suits our millitary for its needs and uses at this point in time. Better specs? Maybe for recreational or other uses but as of now for our millitary needs and uses it is milspec as the standard.

Minimum standard for who, us or the millitary?

bmoore
11-16-2012, 10:50
I didn't get the Colt because its not what I wanted. I served 30 years and pounded plenty of sand. If the "SHTF" in suburbia USA I'm probably good to go with an $800 M&PT. If not there will be plenty of internet commando Colts laying around.

The only things I buy MILSPEC are toilet seats and hammers. And toilet paper.

Smith makes a fine rifle.

glock031
11-16-2012, 10:55
If we/ve taken milspec and improved on it, where can i find these new certs and all the testing that shows the results to be somewhat better than milspec.

chief63
11-16-2012, 12:24
Can someone explain why milspec is refered to as the minimum standard? I've been seeing this statement being posted a lot.

I would think that milspec is the standard that evolved that best suits our millitary for its needs and uses at this point in time. Better specs? Maybe for recreational or other uses but as of now for our millitary needs and uses it is milspec as the standard.

Minimum standard for who, us or the millitary?

MILSPEC does not guarantee the best product. It guarantees a good logistics tail and higher prices for dated technology.

chief63
11-16-2012, 12:38
If we/ve taken milspec and improved on it, where can i find these new certs and all the testing that shows the results to be somewhat better than milspec.

Excellent question. 1970s? MILSPEC is needed for logistics and reliability. But its also a limiting factor. MILSPEC does not keep up with technology.

glock031
11-16-2012, 12:41
Excellent question. 1970s? MILSPEC is needed for logistics and reliability. But its also a limiting factor. MILSPEC does not keep up with technology.

I thought it evolved. It does not?

chief63
11-16-2012, 12:48
I thought it evolved. It does not?

I'm sure. No idea when the last time was. Its governed by bean counters at the GAO.

Brian Brazier
11-16-2012, 12:54
I was the author of one of those threads.(WW or Colt).I'm knowledgeable about pistols and bolt action guns because that's what I practice with and utilize.Even though I had two AK varients and two ARs(DoubleStar and DPMS) before I posed the question,I never really had that much interest in them.They were just a base I covered in my gun ownership.Once I realized the possibility of not being able to buy another in the future,I decided to get a higher quality AR.
Genuinely not knowing what was what is why I asked.I've since purchased a ColtLE6920 and put 800 rounds through the iron sights.Now I'm pondering a new thread "Aimpoint vs. Vortex".
Sorry to have pissed in your Cheerios.

Have you ever had an issue with you Doublestar?

glock031
11-16-2012, 13:45
I'm sure. No idea when the last time was. Its governed by bean counters at the GAO.

The way i percieve it, MILSPEC evolves but slowly due to restraints such as precedures and validation processes. The commercial market does some R&D and runs with it. To compare specs is apples to oranges. Better? Then the question becomes better for who or for what purpose? Commercial tweaks specs for specifics to the segments.

Those restaints put in place by the millitary are be sure measures. So to some extent MILSPEC is not up to current technology. But is proven to create a very reliable black rifle.

chief63
11-16-2012, 16:06
Tis true. MILSPEC absolutely serves and important purpose. I would say commonality with parts and dimensions are the most important. Good for military logistics. But reliability specs are rather low. With that said, the commonality piece does benefit guys who tinker with their somewhat MILSPEC civilian versions.

ken grant
11-16-2012, 17:42
Colt 6920
Colt SP1
Bushy A1 Carbine
Bushy A2 Carbine

Don't see a dime's worth of difference between them

Walk Soft
11-16-2012, 18:46
Have you ever had an issue with you Doublestar?

No,but i have to admit that I've only fired 300 rounds through it.

D.S.Brown
11-16-2012, 19:22
How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...

This really cuts right to the point. Of course Big Bird if people actually were to follow your advice, it might cause internet gun forums to become irrelevant, perish the thought!:wow:

Best,

Dave

SevenSixtyTwo
11-16-2012, 20:59
Big Bird is right.
When I bought my AR, I asked the young man who is an Iraq war veteran, what the closest AR to what he was issued in Iraq was that I could buy as a civilian. He handed me a Colt LE6920. That was all I needed to know. I'm happy with it for that reason alone. So far I haven't found any reason to not be happy with it.

Brian Brazier
11-16-2012, 21:00
No,but i have to admit that I've only fired 300 rounds through it.

I am a Doublestar fan, yes they have a commercial receiver extension, and come with 1x9 twist barrels, but they are great rifles. I am disabled and on a limited budget, a $400 difference in price is huge, and $400 buys allot of ammo. I gave up trying to change any net commandos minds about the Doublestar a longtime ago. JT Rifles provides parts for allot of companies, I believe LMT, and Wilson are on that list, many people want to believe that their rifle is completley made by the name on the side, but the fact of the matter is allot of them contract out parts.

Brian Brazier
11-16-2012, 21:31
I hate to tell everyone that believes their rifle is Milspec, unless it is full auto, its not Milspec. The firearms protection act of 85 notes that select fire rifles may not be sold on the Commercial market, all rifles availible to civilians are commercial.

mjkeat
11-16-2012, 22:41
I hate to tell everyone that believes their rifle is Milspec, unless it is full auto, its not Milspec. The firearms protection act of 85 notes that select fire rifles may not be sold on the Commercial market, all rifles availible to civilians are commercial.

Is every milspec rifle F/A?

$400 buys 1k rounds. That's not a lot. It'll take much more than that to see the differences in quality. I don't know what you mean by internet commando but there are guys here that shoot 1k+ in a day or two on a regular basis. They tend to be the ones who have seen how big of a deal that difference can become.

Some may never see the difference at that's cool. Everyone has their own priorities. If the quality isn't needed and money can be saved go for it. However, there usually isn't a big enough difference in price to make that compromise in quality worth it. A weeks worth of ammunition isn't worth a lifetime of compromise.

Brian Brazier
11-17-2012, 01:00
Is every milspec rifle F/A?

$400 buys 1k rounds. That's not a lot. It'll take much more than that to see the differences in quality. I don't know what you mean by internet commando but there are guys here that shoot 1k+ in a day or two on a regular basis. They tend to be the ones who have seen how big of a deal that difference can become.

Some may never see the difference at that's cool. Everyone has their own priorities. If the quality isn't needed and money can be saved go for it. However, there usually isn't a big enough difference in price to make that compromise in quality worth it. A weeks worth of ammunition isn't worth a lifetime of compromise.

I dont think every FA rifle is "Milspec" but to be considered "Milspec" it has to be select fire. I know that everyone accepts that companies like Colt produce a Milspec rifle, the term has become generic for parts that go through the proper tests, and are the correct size. Preople that are shooting 1,000 rounds are not on internet forums asking what rifle to buy, they are your average shooter (like me). who maybe shoots 100rds a weekend. If I could afford to shoot 1000rds everytime I went to the range I wouldnt own a DS, but I am also honest with myself about what my rifle is primarily going to do, and thats put holes in paper.

chief63
11-17-2012, 07:46
I hate to tell everyone that believes their rifle is Milspec, unless it is full auto, its not Milspec. The firearms protection act of 85 notes that select fire rifles may not be sold on the Commercial market, all rifles availible to civilians are commercial.

Nor is the barrel length. Colt doesn't produce a milspec civilian rifle. It uses some milspec parts and that makes economic sense for them. Some of those parts provide no benefit to single rate fire.

mjkeat
11-17-2012, 08:52
I dont think every FA rifle is "Milspec" but to be considered "Milspec" it has to be select fire. I know that everyone accepts that companies like Colt produce a Milspec rifle, the term has become generic for parts that go through the proper tests, and are the correct size. Preople that are shooting 1,000 rounds are not on internet forums asking what rifle to buy, they are your average shooter (like me). who maybe shoots 100rds a weekend. If I could afford to shoot 1000rds everytime I went to the range I wouldnt own a DS, but I am also honest with myself about what my rifle is primarily going to do, and thats put holes in paper.

Our M4s were not select fire but came from Colt. Would the mil procure firearms that didn't meet the standards the they put out? Maybe? I don't know.

Unfortunately you're probably correct about the average shooter. Nothing wrong w/ that but it doesn't do much to prove "just as good" as. I'm not saying you're making that claim but many do.

My thing w/ Colt doesn't have to do w/ milspec, it's the consistent quality and great price.

ScottieG59
11-17-2012, 13:27
There seems to be a lot of egos on the line.

My first exposure to the M16 (M16A1) was in basic training 30+ years ago. Back then, I had a tough time dealing with those sights sitting far above the barrel and I was lucky to qualify.

For many years, in the back of my mind, there were inherently inferior design issues with the M16 series. There is no need to go into details since I expect we all heard and read the stories about the Air Force buying the early "self cleaning" version and the tweaks made afterward.

Distain for the M16 design evolved into greater familiarity with the design and experience with its capabilities lead me to be very comfortable with what was final version I used in the Army, the M16A2.

The reason I decided on getting the M4 was not that it was especially a good rifle; I went with it because I am very comfortable with it. I think a lot of veterans may feel the same way.

I have not yet read the MILSPEC details on the M4 and I am sure most will find it a bit dry anyway. If all it means to me is that parts are going to fit when I buy them, it is a good enough reason to accept it.

As to the experience a manufacturer has in building rifles, it is only as good as what the current workers know on that particular project. I do not know that the workers at Colt are any better than the newer companies out there. Also, with the addition of CNC, maybe the skilled machinist is less of a factor. Still, I have not checked into who in the M4 community used what technology to build.

The issue that was critical to me was value and reliability. To me, value is enhanced due to the level of testing and maintenance of a standard that is defined clearly.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, I knew many muscle car enthusiasts that would have their engines balanced and blueprinted. When I found out this was done to ensure the engines were at the proper specifications they were designed to have, I was very disappointed in the American car manufacturers. Even into the 1980s, Ford 5.0L pistons could mismatch as much as 20%.

Anyway, the concept of building to SPEC is a good thing to me, though, it is true that innovations are tough to roll in as with systems that follow "spiral development." The reality I have seen with spiral development is that developers will give us a couple features we did not want to counter falling short on requirements.

There are several ways a company can show they maintain quality standards. I know many of us will go by statements made by famous people or others on the web, When working with the federal government, assurances have to be formalized. When a company wants to demonstrate they meet quality standards, a common practice to for them to seek certification from a standards organization. One example is that in 2001, Colt succeeded in obtaining an ISO 9000 certification. Basically, ISO 9000 certification proves that Colt has defined standards they prove they meet and are periodically audited to maintain the certification.

ISO 9000 standards have been updated over the years and certification involves a significant commitment on the part of the business.

Perhaps the other manufacturers out there have achieved the same quality standards and maybe they exceed them. I just do not know and I have not researched it. Colt may not be the best, but they are a known as opposed to an unknown. Meeting the standard means they say what they do and prove it. You may hate me for it, but at that point, I looked no further. Good enough is good enough.

Brian Brazier
11-17-2012, 19:27
Our M4s were not select fire but came from Colt. Would the mil procure firearms that didn't meet the standards the they put out? Maybe? I don't know.

Unfortunately you're probably correct about the average shooter. Nothing wrong w/ that but it doesn't do much to prove "just as good" as. I'm not saying you're making that claim but many do.

My thing w/ Colt doesn't have to do w/ milspec, it's the consistent quality and great price.

I wouldnt say a DS is better than a Colt, or DD. I would say as far as budget production, commercial, rifles go, they are very well made, and hard to beat for your "average" shooter.

mjkeat
11-17-2012, 20:04
I wouldnt say a DS is better than a Colt, or DD. I would say as far as budget production, commercial, rifles go, they are very well made, and hard to beat for your "average" shooter.

Good deal, sounds like you found the right AR for you. That's what matters.

DieselNut
11-19-2012, 15:42
I wouldnt say a DS is better than a Colt, or DD. I would say as far as budget production, commercial, rifles go, they are very well made, and hard to beat for your "average" shooter.

I've had 2 double stars. For a budget "not milspec" rifle, they're one of the best. Dpms doesn't even come close.

Brian Brazier
11-19-2012, 16:59
I've had 2 double stars. For a budget "not milspec" rifle, they're one of the best. Dpms doesn't even come close.

I agree, I also have had 2, my current M4 HBAR, and a 20" A3, I had to sell the 20" a while ago, but I am going to try and replace it this year with a 20 A2.

DieselNut
11-19-2012, 17:26
I think they're starting to make a move towards a milspec gun. I saw their cold hammer forged barrels at knob creek MG shoot back in oct.

Brian Brazier
11-19-2012, 19:32
I am going to order my A2 Rifle with a Milspec barrel, I am a purist at heart and I love the A1 and A2 rifles, I setup my M4 with the carry handle, but its just not the same, besides the nuts that holt it on are uncomfortable when using a 2pt sling. Plus that way I have the M4 to tinker with and the A2 will stay stock.

Rooster Rugburn
11-19-2012, 19:48
.... I am also honest with myself about what my rifle is primarily going to do, and thats put holes in paper.


It takes a lot of maturity to look at it like that.

I thought about that reading a stupid thread that got stickied, and it dawned on me that the father who adheres to a budget so his kids can have more or better, is a fine, upstanding person.

Brian Brazier
11-19-2012, 20:06
It takes a lot of maturity to look at it like that.

I thought about that reading a stupid thread that got stickied, and it dawned on me that the father who adheres to a budget so his kids can have more or better, is a fine, upstanding person.

Thank You Rooster

mjkeat
11-19-2012, 20:51
It takes a lot of maturity to look at it like that.

I thought about that reading a stupid thread that got stickied, and it dawned on me that the father who adheres to a budget so his kids can have more or better, is a fine, upstanding person.

I've been trying to figure out why you are so defensive. Is it that we're feeling left behind as things change. Is it a little taste of how we're not the young stud we used to be?

I'm assuming the stickied thread we speak of is the one created by Surf. We could definitely benefit from that thread.

If the purchase of a luxury item like an AR is a financial burden maybe we shouldn't be purchasing an AR to begin with. Priorities...

I just don't understand why we keep trying to discredit good solid information/advise.

wolf19r
11-19-2012, 21:43
I have a Daniel Defense m4v3 not a high round count yet, but my other rifle (wolf19r custom, yes its was built by me) upper is a Daniel Defense mid length and it has eaten everything I have put in front of it. All of the cheap Russian steel case, cheapo Walmart, , 5.56 Federal, monarch, misc ammo academy friends shot through it, American Eagle, .223 of all sorts ,and .22 with a conversion, its always been flawless with the exception of 2 miss fires on bad ammo. Its been run dirty, clean, wet, dry, etc and its still asks for more. I have full faith in a Daniel Defense Rifles and products. I have not heard bad stuff about Colt or Bushmaster, I've shot RRA that were beat up and still shot. I like several of Colts rifles and almost bought a 6920 but I think it boils down to shooter preference, price range, and whats available in each area. If you like the way a Colt, DS, DD, Spikes, Bushy, etc feels and its in your budget buy it and have fun with it.

P99er
11-20-2012, 11:35
I'm assuming the stickied thread we speak of is the one created by Surf. We could definitely benefit from that thread.

Surf just posted that that thread was tongue in cheek, which I take to mean he was making fun of brand whores, and guru wannabes.

M&P15T
11-20-2012, 12:07
I've been trying to figure out why you are so defensive. Is it that we're feeling left behind as things change. Is it a little taste of how we're not the young stud we used to be?

I'm assuming the stickied thread we speak of is the one created by Surf. We could definitely benefit from that thread.

If the purchase of a luxury item like an AR is a financial burden maybe we shouldn't be purchasing an AR to begin with. Priorities...

I just don't understand why we keep trying to discredit good solid information/advise.

It's simple; because almost all advice is from a very specific perspective, and does not apply to everyone. In fact most advice works pretty exclusively for the person that is giving it, especially when they don't understand or know what other people's priorities are.

Because of this, it's not your position to set or suggest priorities for other people. A poor person who wants to get into an AR is almost surely going to do just fine getting one of the "cheaper" ARs from Double Star, Bush Master, etc. They wouldn't have the money to shoot their AR enough to test it's durability, to wear it out. So despite someone being poor, they can have a fun rifle that can also serve them in times of need such as HD/SD.

One does not have to invest tons of money and time to own an AR or any other firearm. It's whatever they want to spend, what they want to do, what they can afford to do.

Don't miss-understand, I'm all about value, and understand that BCM/DD/Colt are great in that department. But I wouldn't hack on anyone for getting a less expensive AR or AR accessory if they can't afford the big names. They're doing what they can with what they have, it's their call.

Even if someone does have money to spend, if they don't get a Top Tier AR, it's no problem as long as they enjoy what they buy and it's reliable. And if a person does have a decent flow of money, and they did make a purchasing mistake, or they shoot-out their cheaper AR, they can afford to rememdy the situation.

You have a serious, serious issue with only seeing your side of things. It makes your posts a repetetive, boring drone of the same stuff again and again. You really have a very narrow outlook on things. Hopefully this willl change with age and maturity.

mvician
11-20-2012, 12:53
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/mvician/mirror.jpg


You have a serious, serious issue with only seeing your side of things. It makes your posts a repetetive, boring drone of the same stuff again and again. You really have a very narrow outlook on things. Hopefully this willl change with age and maturity.

bigmoney890
11-20-2012, 12:54
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/mvician/mirror.jpg


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

M&P15T
11-20-2012, 13:34
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/mvician/mirror.jpg


No doubt, you're correct. Mkjeat has allowed me to see the error of my ways from the opposite perspective.:supergrin:

mjkeat
11-20-2012, 17:18
No doubt, you're correct. Mkjeat has allowed me to see the error of my ways from the opposite perspective.:supergrin:

Says the guy trying to sell off his M&P so he can purchase the DD he's going on and on about. Just think of the money you would have saved going w/ the DD to begin with.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

M&P15T
11-22-2012, 20:41
Says the guy trying to sell off his M&P so he can purchase the DD he's going on and on about. Just think of the money you would have saved going w/ the DD to begin with.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Am I trying to sell off my rifle?

Wow, I had no clue. That's probably something I should know about. I might want to post an ad or something, if that's my intention.

I want a DD becacuse I want one, but I certainly don't need one. If I had bought a DD to start with, I would probably want something else right now.

A few months back I really wanted an LWRC......a few months from now it might be something else. I've perused BCMs sight quite a bit. It has nothing to do with saving money, it's about a fun hobby that piques interest.

mjkeat
11-22-2012, 21:57
If I said your screen name was M&P15T would you argue with me?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

mvician
11-22-2012, 22:52
If I said your screen name was M&P15T would you argue with me?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I believe he would :stooges:

M&P15T
11-23-2012, 04:56
If I said your screen name was M&P15T would you argue with me?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Not arguing.....correcting.

Matthew Courtney
11-23-2012, 17:48
It's simple; because almost all advice is from a very specific perspective, and does not apply to everyone. In fact most advice works pretty exclusively for the person that is giving it, especially when they don't understand or know what other people's priorities are.

Because of this, it's not your position to set or suggest priorities for other people. A poor person who wants to get into an AR is almost surely going to do just fine getting one of the "cheaper" ARs from Double Star, Bush Master, etc. They wouldn't have the money to shoot their AR enough to test it's durability, to wear it out. So despite someone being poor, they can have a fun rifle that can also serve them in times of need such as HD/SD.

One does not have to invest tons of money and time to own an AR or any other firearm. It's whatever they want to spend, what they want to do, what they can afford to do.

Don't miss-understand, I'm all about value, and understand that BCM/DD/Colt are great in that department. But I wouldn't hack on anyone for getting a less expensive AR or AR accessory if they can't afford the big names. They're doing what they can with what they have, it's their call.

Even if someone does have money to spend, if they don't get a Top Tier AR, it's no problem as long as they enjoy what they buy and it's reliable. And if a person does have a decent flow of money, and they did make a purchasing mistake, or they shoot-out their cheaper AR, they can afford to rememdy the situation.

You have a serious, serious issue with only seeing your side of things. It makes your posts a repetetive, boring drone of the same stuff again and again. You really have a very narrow outlook on things. Hopefully this willl change with age and maturity.


Who are you and what did you do with the M&P15T who was posting here 6 months ago?

Good post! Seriously. Awesome post!

glock031
11-23-2012, 21:25
It's simple; because almost all advice is from a very specific perspective, and does not apply to everyone. In fact most advice works pretty exclusively for the person that is giving it, especially when they don't understand or know what other people's priorities are.

Because of this, it's not your position to set or suggest priorities for other people. A poor person who wants to get into an AR is almost surely going to do just fine getting one of the "cheaper" ARs from Double Star, Bush Master, etc. They wouldn't have the money to shoot their AR enough to test it's durability, to wear it out. So despite someone being poor, they can have a fun rifle that can also serve them in times of need such as HD/SD.

One does not have to invest tons of money and time to own an AR or any other firearm. It's whatever they want to spend, what they want to do, what they can afford to do.

Don't miss-understand, I'm all about value, and understand that BCM/DD/Colt are great in that department. But I wouldn't hack on anyone for getting a less expensive AR or AR accessory if they can't afford the big names. They're doing what they can with what they have, it's their call.

Even if someone does have money to spend, if they don't get a Top Tier AR, it's no problem as long as they enjoy what they buy and it's reliable. And if a person does have a decent flow of money, and they did make a purchasing mistake, or they shoot-out their cheaper AR, they can afford to rememdy the situation.

You have a serious, serious issue with only seeing your side of things. It makes your posts a repetetive, boring drone of the same stuff again and again. You really have a very narrow outlook on things. Hopefully this willl change with age and maturity.

You nailed it brother! Good post! :)

TedG
11-24-2012, 13:24
I didn't buy an expensive AR. I bought value.

I bought a Colt.

Haldor
11-24-2012, 15:17
WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.

Both of the Walmart stores in my area have the LE6920 in stock.

Walmart has started carrying more guns in the stores in last 2 years. It is very rude to accuse someone else of being deceptive (lying). It is even worse when you don't even know what you are talking about.

An inner city Walmart is probably not going to stock a Colt. A suburban or rural Walmart probably does.

Rooster Rugburn
11-24-2012, 16:11
Both of the Walmart stores in my area have the LE6920 in stock.

Walmart has started carrying more guns in the stores in last 2 years. It is very rude to accuse someone else of being deceptive (lying). It is even worse when you don't even know what you are talking about.

An inner city Walmart is probably not going to stock a Colt. A suburban or rural Walmart probably does.

You can go to their website and find out which stores in your area have them in stock.

A few years ago, Wal-Mart was hemorrhaging business and customers. They decided they needed to get back to their roots. That's when they started selling rifles again, and brought layaway back. The idea with bringing rifles back was to be a "one stop" shopping experience. Apparently, when gunowners buy a firearm at WM, they also buy other stuff. And apparently, there are enough of us to make a difference in their bottom line. So they'll sell rifles again until liberals start pressure, and then they'll probably get rid of them again.

*ASH*
11-24-2012, 23:00
our walmart only has WINDAM AR , AND DMPS SOMETHING .

*ASH*
11-24-2012, 23:03
I didn't buy an expensive AR. I bought value.

I bought a Colt.

the name COLT DOES not mean what it once did . they outsource alot of parts

now in the resale dept THE NAME COLT will bring more not because of quality but because the average joe looking for a AR dont know any better .

i was a gonna buy a colt , but no comparison to a DD. NONE

mvician
11-24-2012, 23:36
so says the guy who until 2 days ago didn't know what AR to buy or if he should build........

*ASH*
11-24-2012, 23:41
so says the guy who until 2 days ago didn't know what AR to buy or if he should build........

yeah that guy :rofl::rofl: , hell you dont have to know much to start out with , but anyone into guns know the name COLT . and ive done alot of research in 2 days , talked to some miltary folks , other folks , and basically learning .

the colt will always be good but now there is better , what is so hard to digest ?? several ar makers have surpassed colt .
its nothing different from any of other gun dude, some are hk fanboys, some are sig fanboys , glock fanboys

im not pissing on your colt , im just stating better made rifles pass colt . if i was looking to be a collector id buy Colt.

mvician
11-24-2012, 23:49
What does DD do to make them SO much better than Colt except to put fancy rails on their rifles?


and don't worry about pissing on my Colt, I don't own a factory built Colt rifle.

mjkeat
11-24-2012, 23:49
ASH, so what ARs are better than Colt? Quality, Price, Value, the whole picture?

Not saying I disagree w/ you but I want to be clear.

*ASH*
11-25-2012, 00:03
ASH, so what ARs are better than Colt? Quality, Price, Value, the whole picture?

Not saying I disagree w/ you but I want to be clear.

without the 9mm vs 45 debate


ITS ALL SUBJECTABLE . AND TO ONES LIKE . it differs from person to person , and hey i get it folks want to to be at peace with themselves that got a good deal , or quality gun . and when someone questions a certain gun , car , hat , bullet people get all rawled :rofl:

it comes down to the person what is best for them . and bar none a DD is above a colt period .

look at the specs , the equipment, the torture tests , it is just a better gun


like how does a posi traction on a dodge hemi work ?? IT JUST DOES

Matthew Courtney
11-25-2012, 00:09
Both of the Walmart stores in my area have the LE6920 in stock.

Walmart has started carrying more guns in the stores in last 2 years. It is very rude to accuse someone else of being deceptive (lying). It is even worse when you don't even know what you are talking about.

An inner city Walmart is probably not going to stock a Colt. A suburban or rural Walmart probably does.

I have 2 suburban and 2 rural Walmarts within a 25-30 minute drive. None of them sell firearms, so I know exactly what I am talking about.

*ASH*
11-25-2012, 00:14
heres a rock river i bought last weekend brand new at gun show , impulse buy did not know what i know now . sold it 3 days ago same price i paid for it .
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/KK_Koala/DSCN5335.jpg

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/KK_Koala/DSCN5345-1.jpg


thought i got good AR . learned more info . and now i can get a better rifle .

mvician
11-25-2012, 00:14
Must be a politician......ask a question and get the run around for an answer.

:yawn: goodnight.

mjkeat
11-25-2012, 00:14
without the 9mm vs 45 debate


ITS ALL SUBJECTABLE . AND TO ONES LIKE . it differs from person to person , and hey i get it folks want to to be at peace with themselves that got a good deal , or quality gun . and when someone questions a certain gun , car , hat , bullet people get all rawled :rofl:

it comes down to the person what is best for them . and bar none a DD is above a colt period .

look at the specs , the equipment, the torture tests , it is just a better gun


like how does a posi traction on a dodge hemi work ?? IT JUST DOES

What are the tangible differences?

*ASH*
11-25-2012, 00:28
i knew i should have bit my lip and stayed out of this thread :rofl: well bro its 130 am here , just read over in gng that one of my internet friends died and i have nothing more tonight .

im not gonna be baited , im gonna go have a beer for CJ , i dont drink but i do tonight .

we just agree to disagree . niters

mjkeat
11-25-2012, 00:33
It's not about disagreeing or not. Like I said I don't necessarily disagree w/ you. It's just a very bold statement. When asked to help make it clear you dance. I would honestly prefer a BCM/DD in my choice of flavor but...

QNman
11-25-2012, 08:32
Colt makes a good rifle. DD does too. Both are better than the RRA "operator" you dumped.

Which is better? As stated, highly subjective. Meaning arguments can be made either way.

I recently decided to buy a new AR "just because". I had decided it would be either a DD or a Colt. I found the Colt local, and for a good price, before I found a DD in stock on the Internet so I bought it. Next time, I will wait for the DD just to "mix it up".

Ash bought a good rifle (the DD). So did I. So lets all quit with the "tastes great", "less filling" bickering, eh?

PS - took the Colt to the range a few days ago. Fed it 260 rounds to begin. I intentionally mixed and matched; I shot mixed mags (all 20-rounders except the last Surefure 60-rounder) and varied mags (PMags, colt mags, old beat up C-products, Surefire). I mixed some old silver bear, PMC, XM193, light hand loads, and some old Wolf. Each mag I shot faster, and each time it ate. To finish, I dumped a 60-round mixed mag as fast as I could pull the trigger. And it ate.

Not one malfunction; period. And other than the 60-round dump, it shot pretty danged accurate (iron sights, 50-yards, old eyes).

Next time I will plop an optic on it and watch for accuracy.

mvician
11-25-2012, 11:05
Ash bought a good rifle (the DD). So did I. So lets all quit with the "tastes great", "less filling" bickering, eh?



Yes ASH bought a great rifle.
There is no bickering.
He made a claim and was asked to back it up.
He danced around, didn't give an answer.

End of story.

QNman
11-25-2012, 13:03
Yes ASH bought a great rifle.
There is no bickering.
He made a claim and was asked to back it up.
He danced around, didn't give an answer.

End of story.

Yes, he did. And he should have qualified that with an IMO. However, I would think at some point, this would be implied, as "better than" in this context is subjective. Absent significant testing (like in the thousands) documented under similar circumstances, etc., "better" really just means "different solution to the same problem".

As I stated - I own a Colt, own several other brands of varying quality, and have owned several others. Some were expensive, others were not. Some were fickle about ammo and/or lube, others just eat. I got no dog in this fight. It just saddens me to see the "black rifle club" continually at each others throats over who bought the "better" toy, particularly when we get to comparing DD to Colt.

End of story for me. Carry on.

mjkeat
11-25-2012, 20:05
I think it was the, Colt isn't as good as they used to be comment with no supporting text that stood out the most from a guy w/, as someone said is, only a week or so worth of experience.

Colt is really strengthening their retail side and their prices are good.

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