135 Nosler with #9 - Unimpressive Velocity, and ideas? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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atyszka
11-12-2012, 17:03
Hi guys, wondering if anyone has any insight as to why I got results so far off form AA book. The recipe for 17.5 gr of #9 with the 135 Nosler is supposed to be 1507, I didn't get anywhere near that. I'm sure a 5" barrel could be worth a few fps, but not sure it could account for another 100+.

I know #9 is probably too slow for such a light bullet, but has anyone had different (better) results than this or ideas as to what I could tweak? Thanks

My results

G20, 22 lb spring
50F, 95% Humidity, 902 ft elevation
135 gr Nosler HP
AA #9
Starline brass, new
1.255 OAL
CCI 350

16.5 gr = 1314 fps avg
1295, 1332, 1315, 1316, 1312

16.8 gr = 1325 fps avg
1341, 1323, 1321, 1306, 1336

17.2 gr = 1335 fps avg
1354, 1328, 1330, 1320, 1347

17.5 gr = 1373 fps avg
1329, 1410, 1379, 1359, 1389

gofastman
11-12-2012, 17:17
Id try a standard primer and see what happens

_The_Shadow
11-12-2012, 17:17
AA#9 is great for metered measuring, provides uniform numbers mostly, However, it is on the slow side and the amount needed to produce results is not cost effective.
I do use AA#9 for some loadings but I prefer Blue Dot, LongShot, Power Pistol, AA#7 and even IMR800X in the 10mm across the bullet weight spectrum.

Lately I have considered 800X to yield the best results for velocity, LongShot also but produces more pressure at same velocities.
Blue Dot for the best accuracy and all around use.

atyszka
11-12-2012, 18:39
I have several pounds of 800x, but it meters so poorly I can't use it in my Dillon SD. #9 meters extremely well, burns very clean and accuracy is excellent, but I hear ya on the efficiency.

Of the powders you mention, what do you think is best for a light bullet (ruling out 800x as I don't want to hand weigh each charge)? I have a pound of #7 that I will try too.

Thanks

ModGlock17
11-12-2012, 21:07
Wish you live close, i can buy those 800x lbs from you.

I went through the same process as you are, and settled on 800x for lighter bullets (135gr and 155gr). I got 11.0gr of 800x on 135gr with CCI 300, to yield 1,620fps. That is enough for me.

Yes, I weighed them by hand for awhile and discovered that +/- 0.2gr on a fully filled dispenser is accurate enough. AND, it is so coarse that after it is filled, I can pretty much eye ball it by looking into the case, to tell whether or not it is seriouly over-filled. Uncertainty on the weight is dangerous if you live at the edge. I backed off the edge to account for the uncertainty as I realize a few tens of fps doesn't make that much of a difference anyway, so why beat yourself up to achieve such tolerance ?

OhioGlockMan
11-12-2012, 21:16
I'd bet a fresh crisp ben franklin the sad sorry velocity is due to AA#9 being too slow of a powder for 135 grain as it is a very very light weight bullet for caliber. I'd make a bet you could make em go 1600 FPS no prb with alliant power pistol

atyszka
11-12-2012, 21:25
Wish you live close, i can buy those 800x lbs from you.

I went through the same process as you are, and settled on 800x for lighter bullets (135gr and 155gr). I got 11.0gr of 800x on 135gr with CCI 300, to yield 1,620fps. That is enough for me.

Yes, I weighed them by hand for awhile and discovered that +/- 0.2gr on a fully filled dispenser is accurate enough. AND, it is so coarse that after it is filled, I can pretty much eye ball it by looking into the case, to tell whether or not it is seriouly over-filled. Uncertainty on the weight is dangerous if you live at the edge. I backed off the edge to account for the uncertainty as I realize a few tens of fps doesn't make that much of a difference anyway, so why beat yourself up to achieve such tolerance ?

Maybe I'll give the 800x another try and just keep it conservative and see what I get, since it's paid for and collecting dust. If I remember I was getting +/- .5 gr, which made me uncomfortable. Another interesting thing to see with inconsistent speeds will be the groups. Could be horrible, could be minor. Only one way to find out I guess. :whistling:

ModGlock17
11-12-2012, 21:37
Just to keep in the context of my claim on +/- 0.2 gr on 800x. I used this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/150005/lee-auto-disk-adjustable-powder-charge-bar

on this

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/348753/lee-pro-auto-disk-powder-measure

I won't blindly trust the equipment. I always peek into the case after the charge dropped to see if it is pretty much the same expected level. Your set up is different, I know.

Yondering
11-12-2012, 22:39
Of the Accurate powders, AA7 is much better suited to light 10mm bullets than AA9. If you have some, give it a try. Even with 155gr bullets, AA7 can beat AA9 by 100+ fps in my gun. AA9 just runs out of powder capacity before you ever see max pressure.

atyszka
11-13-2012, 08:58
Thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to work up a few with the #7 I have and again see what kind of consistency I can get with the 800x. I'll report back with the results once I can get out to the range.

MakeMineA10mm
11-14-2012, 07:48
I'm a big proponent of AA#9 in the 10mm, because it has the right combination of stored energy, loading density, and pressure curve for the case volume of our cartridge. However, that holds true only for heavy bullets of about 175gr and heavier. From 180gr to 175gr, several other powders work just as well. Once you go below 170grs, AA#9 loses most of its efficiences, and better powders are available.

My proponency of AA#9 is based on my feeling that bullets below 165grs are not useful/beneficial and are against the basis for which this cartridge was invented/intended.

For super lightweight bullets, I'd definitely recommend a faster-burning powder, such as Herco, AA#7, or HS-6.

MakeMineA10mm
11-14-2012, 07:50
I'd bet a fresh crisp ben franklin the sad sorry velocity is due to AA#9 being too slow of a powder for 135 grain as it is a very very light weight bullet for caliber. I'd make a bet you could make em go 1600 FPS no prb with alliant power pistol

Oh yeah, and Power Pistol. Good post OGM!

TDC20
11-16-2012, 23:12
There isn't a lot of published data for the 135gr. bullets in 10mm. If you're willing to go "off book", and your main objective is top velocities, Longshot makes a pretty good 135gr load. I get 1700fps from my LWD 6" barrel with 12.6gr Longshot and a CCI#300 standard primer. That hits around 1570fps or so from the stock barrel. Pressure is reasonable, but it's a full power load, so work up to that with due caution. Accuracy isn't all that great, but that seems to be the case with 135's out of my gun.

Taterhead
11-27-2012, 19:41
I haven't gone as light as 135 with A9, but a book max of A9 under a 155 XTP gets 1425 fps in my stock G20 barrel. So a higher velocity with a heavier bullet and less powder. I have a hypothesis as to why.

A9 is sensitive to neck tension and needs a high bullet pull to perform best. I am curious if you sized the brass prior to seating the bullet? I noticed that you used new brass, so I am not sure if you sized it first. If not, I imagine that sizing your brass would increase neck tension on that small bullet an help build a head of steam a bit. Also, seating a little deaper might help some too (if there is room for powder). I also agree with trying a standard primer too.

A9 is my favorite 10mm powder, but it is best for 200s. I am not a fan of 800-X, but one application that it works extremely well for in my G20 is with that little Nosler. I have had velocities average 1700 fps with 800-X. This is with a bone stock G20. I do not recommend 1700 fps, but 1500 or 1550 is doable without too much trouble.

Since you have some cans of 800-X onhand, this has been the most suitable application that I have personally encountered for that powder.

blastfact
11-27-2012, 20:25
I like many have played with the 135's. Honestly it was a waste of time and money. I could make them go like goose poo or slow them down to 9mm 124gn bullet loads or .40 usless Smith loads and they did not shoot well out of my LW 5.15" barrel. They were not as accurate as I like. Even had some tumble on me at the higher speeds with bigger holes in paper. I figure they where trying to shed there jacket.

The most accurate loads were Power Pistol and Blue Dot of the powders I had on hand. And Blue Dot would drive the bullet to full on nuke goose poo speeds.

I did not shoot any of these loads out of the worthless Glock thing they call a barrel and chamber. I haven't shot anything out of that whore loose chamber with the euro trash swirls in the tube.

atyszka
11-27-2012, 20:54
Lol, don't hold back on how you really feel . . .

I loaded some up with #7 and had good accuracy around 1360 fps with 13.6 gr.

I also tried 800X through my Dillon SD, that was a waste of time. The best I could get was +/- .5 gr and velocities ranged 1274 - 1494 with an "average" of 11.2 gr. That's obviously way too much deviation.

I'm done experimenting with 135 Noslers for now and am working up some 180 XTPs with #9, which will likely be my SD round once I'm happy with one.

ModGlock17
11-27-2012, 22:38
Kegs posted a deer kill using the 135gr that went through 12" of the deer then exited. See the 10 Ring stickie called 10mm Hunting thread. There was another person on a separate thread having similar experience. they got my attention because I didn't think the 135gr at 1,500+ fps can penetrate 12" of tissue, much less continued on and exited the animal.

I had previously viewed the 135gr as preferred SD round because you'd want low collateral damage in home invasion situations. I was, until those two data points. BG thicker than 12" don't generally burglarizing homes, slender ones do.

blastfact
11-28-2012, 18:55
Kegs posted a deer kill using the 135gr that went through 12" of the deer then exited. See the 10 Ring stickie called 10mm Hunting thread. There was another person on a separate thread having similar experience. they got my attention because I didn't think the 135gr at 1,500+ fps can penetrate 12" of tissue, much less continued on and exited the animal.

I had previously viewed the 135gr as preferred SD round because you'd want low collateral damage in home invasion situations. I was, until those two data points. BG thicker than 12" don't generally burglarizing homes, slender ones do.

I use 155gn XTP's for HD, SD, and range target shooting. And yes I buy a lot of XTP's. I was not impressed with Noslers. I could make them speedy as hell. Was like the 185gn .45 acp's,,,, Really.

atyszka
11-28-2012, 19:51
Yeah, I read Keg's post and am surprised! It's contrary to most of what we hear and see in gel tests, but the proof was there in the form of some tasty backstrap. It has me rethinking all the 180 XTPs I have in the cabinet. I still have 350 - 400 135 gr Noslers that I am for sure going to use as my .40 CC round.

Taterhead
11-28-2012, 20:11
Lol, don't hold back on how you really feel . . .

I loaded some up with #7 and had good accuracy around 1360 fps with 13.6 gr.

I also tried 800X through my Dillon SD, that was a waste of time. The best I could get was +/- .5 gr and velocities ranged 1274 - 1494 with an "average" of 11.2 gr. That's obviously way too much deviation.

I'm done experimenting with 135 Noslers for now and am working up some 180 XTPs with #9, which will likely be my SD round once I'm happy with one.

I have never trusted 800-X with a powder dispenser. 100% of them are hand weighed if loaded on my bench. I am finally down to my last pound of 800-X. When that is gone, I will likely never buy it again.

I like th 180 XTP in the 1225 fps range. Good all around bullet. A9 and Blue Dot fit that just fine for me and my Glock 20 (stock barrel, sorry blastfact! :supergrin:).

Thanks for keeping us posted on your efforts.

Taterhead
11-28-2012, 20:15
Yeah, I read Keg's post and am surprised! It's contrary to most of what we hear and see in gel tests, but the proof was there in the form of some tasty backstrap. It has me rethinking all the 180 XTPs I have in the cabinet. I still have 350 - 400 135 gr Noslers that I am for sure going to use as my .40 CC round.

Just a hypothesis, but I imagine that the Nosler might have plugged up and not expanded due to the through-and-through. I don't recall from his report that it did the type of carnage that this bullet normally can do at that speed.

I do not trust the 135 Nosler. I would be more confident in the 180 XTP for just about anything.

Andrew Wiggin
11-29-2012, 08:11
I'm a big proponent of AA#9 in the 10mm, because it has the right combination of stored energy, loading density, and pressure curve for the case volume of our cartridge. However, that holds true only for heavy bullets of about 175gr and heavier. From 180gr to 175gr, several other powders work just as well. Once you go below 170grs, AA#9 loses most of its efficiences, and better powders are available.

My proponency of AA#9 is based on my feeling that bullets below 165grs are not useful/beneficial and are against the basis for which this cartridge was invented/intended.

For super lightweight bullets, I'd definitely recommend a faster-burning powder, such as Herco, AA#7, or HS-6.

Well said. I came here to say pretty much the same thing. So far my testing indicates that 155 gr and lighter bullets don't penetrate very deeply. AA#7 would be better suited to the lighter bullets. AA#9 is better for 180 gr and heavier.

I too like 800-X, but also for 180 gr +. What I do is to set my Uniflow measure to throw a charge that's roughly .5 gr below the charge I'm looking for, throw the charge in the pan, put it on my scale and trickle up to the correct weight. It's faster than trickling up from zero and more accurate than letting the powder measure do the work. I've seen it off by as much as half a grain.

Andrew Wiggin
11-29-2012, 08:47
Kegs posted a deer kill using the 135gr that went through 12" of the deer then exited. See the 10 Ring stickie called 10mm Hunting thread. There was another person on a separate thread having similar experience. they got my attention because I didn't think the 135gr at 1,500+ fps can penetrate 12" of tissue, much less continued on and exited the animal.

I had previously viewed the 135gr as preferred SD round because you'd want low collateral damage in home invasion situations. I was, until those two data points. BG thicker than 12" don't generally burglarizing homes, slender ones do.


The reason that it is recommended to use a cartridge for defense that can reach AT LEAST 12" is because bad guys usually don't square off with you and stand still like an E-type silhouette. You are very likely to be presented with a shot that takes an oblique angle through the torso and has to pass through the upper and/or lower arm before reaching the vital organs.

Remember that incapacitation is achieved through only two ways: blood loss or damage to the central nervous system. Damage to major bone and muscle groups is a secondary method of reducing the ability of the aggressor to fight but even complete amputation of a limb will not incapacitate a person until the blood loss causes them to lose conciousness. To achieve blood loss rapid enough to end a fight, you have to cause significant damage to the heart, pulmonary blood vessels, or other large blood vessels in the torso such as the vena cava or aorta. To promote rapid bleeding, a through and through shot is preferred.

From what I've seen, the lighter 10mm bullets might perform very well for an ideal shot on a person who obliges you by standing still and square. They may not drive deeply enough to make it through the limbs and torso of an attacker, especially if it happens to be a larger person. We carry guns in the first place to prepare ourselves for an unlikely event. Why in the world would we want to limit ourselves to being marginally prepared for only the most likely of unlikely events?

_The_Shadow
11-29-2012, 19:55
Unimpressive Velocity, and ideas? Here was some impressive stuff...

I was given an Underwood Ammo 135 grain Nolser to do as a pulldown, to find out what was inside...here is what I found...

Cartridgeis from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 135gr Nosler JHP

BallisticsInformation: 10mm Auto

MuzzleVelocity: 1600 fps

MuzzleEnergy: 767 ft. lbs

Pictures:Before/After disassembly:

BrassMake/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass

BulletMake/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.4880”/Dia. 0.400”: Nosler 135gr. JHP

actualweight 135.2 grains

C.O.A.L.:1.2520”

Primer:Brass color

Case:Diameter 0.4215” Crimp Diameter 0.4210” Length 0.9870”

PowderDescription/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 11.8 grains

Pictureof powder:

TestedVelocity: 1738 fps



Afterthe Shot

CaseData: expansion measurement’s: Diameter 0.4325” “Smiled” 0.4295” primer blownout, no ejection, case stayed in the chamber but loose.

Pictures are posted here with the data...http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood's-lineup-135155165180220/

atyszka
11-30-2012, 11:26
Shadow, fantastic info, THANKS!

Now that's some impressive velocity.

_The_Shadow
11-30-2012, 12:12
Shadow, fantastic info, THANKS!

Now that's some impressive velocity.

Please read about this...
Afterthe Shot CaseData: expansion measurement’s: Diameter 0.4325” “Smiled” 0.4295” primer blownout, no ejection, case stayed in the chamber but loose. :wow:

Taterhead
11-30-2012, 14:44
Please read about this...
Afterthe Shot CaseData: expansion measurement’s: Diameter 0.4325” “Smiled” 0.4295” primer blownout, no ejection, case stayed in the chamber but loose. :wow:

Yikes. 800-X gives me the creeps. Having worked with enough of it and seen some very odd outliers, I don't like it. I have loaded up to 14.5 grains with it under a 135 gr Nosler with absolutely no signs of excessive pressure. Yet the U/W is far below my testing. I have done multiple workups from 10.0 grains to 14.5. No problems.

Then I load 9.6 grains under a 180 XTP and I get horrible bulges, flattened primers and smiles. That is, by the way, less than the Hdy max by 0.5 grains.

Yet others have had very dreamy results. This has led me to believe that it has some inconsistencies. I also believe this is why most published data keeps 800-X at very modest max pressures.

_The_Shadow
11-30-2012, 15:20
Yes I was quite supprised to see the velocity numbers and the prime blown out! Being this was a pull down from Underwood's lineup, I didn't prime this casing so I don't know if it was a loose fit. But at some point in the ignition, I feel the primer actually pushed the slide back and/or the casing forward, which at that point the casing came unhooked from the extractor leaving the casing loose in the chamber. No ejection was the result...
There have been many load workups up to the 14.5 grain loading some have had some wild numbers others some sever case distortion and smiles...
I too have loaded the Hornady 200 XTP's to 9.4 grains with some expected results.

As always there are some impressive things going on that needs to be studied further.

atyszka
11-30-2012, 15:29
Please read about this...
Afterthe Shot CaseData: expansion measurement’s: Diameter 0.4325” “Smiled” 0.4295” primer blownout, no ejection, case stayed in the chamber but loose. :wow:

Ouch. I missed that last sentence. I have a few pounds of 800X sitting in the cabinet, but with the metering issues, I just don't use it much. I usually load too much to want to weigh each load and it's a PITA to do with a Dillon SD.

I know Underwood loads them HOT, but I'm surprised that happened. 800x is capable of so much, but this kind of thing makes me nervous.

Taterhead
12-02-2012, 11:24
Ouch. I missed that last sentence. I have a few pounds of 800X sitting in the cabinet, but with the metering issues, I just don't use it much. I usually load too much to want to weigh each load and it's a PITA to do with a Dillon SD.

I know Underwood loads them HOT, but I'm surprised that happened. 800x is capable of so much, but this kind of thing makes me nervous.

That is why I no longer use 800-X for hot loads. I have been burning through my supply here and there with moderate loads when I have a extra time to "throw and trickle up."

It is that one powder that has been a puzzler. A quick search will find many situations where U/W loads give freaky results like smiled cases, leaking or popped primers, and etc. I don't attribute this to Underwood quality controls. They are good folks. It seems consistent with 800-X.

My 14.5 grains works fine under a 135, but another is popping primers at 12.0 grains. Someone else is stuffing 9.6 grains under a 200 XTP with great results. That same charge under my 180 XTP gives sever indications of excessive pressure. I have not seen such variability with any other 10mm powder.

Manufacturers consistently keep book 800-X load data at very modest pressures while they don't for other powders. The guys who distribute this stuff list 3 loads. 2 @ 30,000 fps and one at 32,500. They don't keep others to such modest pressures. I have said it before, there has to be something about the pressure behavior of 800-X that leads Hodgdon to call for maximum loads that leaves such a large margin for error.