PA State Police may go 45 acp [Archive] - Glock Talk

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triaxle
11-13-2012, 17:29
Pulled over today for DOT check and when finished got on the subject of Glocks which they have G 37 in the Gap. The officer said they are testing G21 in 45acp right now . and he did not care for the old Beretta 40 cal they had . The officer was courteous .Every thing was good on my spot check.

diamondd2
11-13-2012, 17:49
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

DFin
11-13-2012, 17:50
A PSP Trooper told me he could not get the dept to give him any extra .45 GAP ammo. He said that when they carried .40 cal. Beretta's he could usually get an extra box or two of ammo. I'm not sure how much GAP ammo they are issued ie: a 50 round box or just the 31 rounds carried on their person.

BuckyP
11-13-2012, 17:55
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

I do.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Police305
11-13-2012, 18:05
Here in miami, most officers carry G21's or G22's.

SJ 40
11-13-2012, 18:11
A PSP Trooper told me he could not get the dept to give him any extra .45 GAP ammo. He said that when they carried .40 cal. Beretta's he could usually get an extra box or two of ammo. I'm not sure how much GAP ammo they are issued ie: a 50 round box or just the 31 rounds carried on their person.Ammunition cost,just maybe the reason for the switch. SJ 40

4949shooter
11-13-2012, 18:12
Interesting..

houseflipper
11-13-2012, 18:45
I will phone a friend who is on the job

AKR
11-13-2012, 18:51
I just checked ammo prices on SGAmmo.com, one of my sources with good prices. I can't do direct comparisons due to differences in the stock for GAP and ACP, but I can't really see any significant differences in the ammo prices. In some cases, you could say the .45 ACP costs more.

cowboywannabe
11-13-2012, 18:56
how many suppliers for gap ammo and how many suppliers for acp ammo?

Bruce M
11-13-2012, 19:18
Yes it is interesting to some of us - thanks for posting. Glad the stop went well.

bac1023
11-13-2012, 20:04
Thanks for the info.

Henry's Dad
11-13-2012, 20:51
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

What makes you so bitter toward PSP? Some pending state charges you want to tell us about?:dunno:

OP, thanks for the info. Nice to hear my state tax dollars are going toward sensible spending for a change (even if I am a G23 man myself).

PattonT
11-13-2012, 20:53
They have been saying they are switching for about two years now. I don't foresee it happening. I will say that agencies that seek the CALEA accreditation can't have service weapons older than 4 yrs so if they update to new handguns they may as well switch.

di11igaf
11-13-2012, 23:14
Here in DE (pa neighbor) the state police carry 229's in 357 SIG.

diamondd2
11-14-2012, 05:07
What makes you so bitter toward PSP? Some pending state charges you want to tell us about?:dunno:



No.

Nothing toward the PSP in particular. I just cant stand that everytime some PD talks about switching calibers everyone wants to jump on the band wagon. LIke the PD is the final word on caliber. It's usually just because they got a new captain or cheif and they need to justify their job.

And come on. They are "testing" a G21 45acp? LIke the 21 or the 45acp has not been proven over an over already.

ca survivor
11-14-2012, 07:10
Here in miami, most officers carry G21's or G22's.
what department uses the G21s ? or is individual officer choice ? thanks

jdw174
11-14-2012, 07:49
As a retired member of the PSP, I too am interested in this. Without going into a history of PSP firearms, I can only say that they "test" everything they get, from flashlights to handcuffs, although as with any gov't agency, the low bidder usually gets the gravy.
They were getting ready to switch from .357 revolvers to autoloaders just prior to my retirement. As a firearm instructor, I was asked for my input. Knowing they would never go for a SA auto and knowing they would want at least a DA first round, I suggested they strongly consider the SIG. Like anything else I pushed for, they went with a Beretta instead in .40 S&W. I didn't consider a Glock as they had already declared them as not authorized even for off duty carry due to their "lack of a safety". (Strangely enough, they were issued to the SERT team).

I had the opportunity to fire the issue Beretta after I retired when my replacement instructor called me and asked if I'd meet him at the range. He brought his duty gun, along with issue ammo. I'd never seen such a piece of crap. The trigger was absolutely abominable. So hard to pull that neither of us (both decent shots BTW) could hardly get decent hits at 25 yards. He'd wanted to adjust his sights and was told no, they'd "been adjusted before issue". WTF????? Apparently someone came to their senses eventually, and the Glocks were issued.

As for providing ammo, unless they've changed (and I seriously doubt it), they may be issuing one box. No further ammo is issued for practice. Practice ammo comes out of the trooper's pocket....if they practice at all. During my 25 years, most didn't.

cowboy1964
11-14-2012, 08:50
In some cases, you could say the .45 ACP costs more.

You could also say there are a lot more choices.

ColdSteelNail
11-14-2012, 09:17
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

Did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning?

Gary1911A1
11-14-2012, 09:33
Sometimes it's not low bidder, but minority bidder.

dkf
11-14-2012, 09:45
There usually is not any speakable difference in contract price of .45acp or .45gap. The PSP was and most likely still is low on funds so I would not expect them to be throwing around ammo even though they should highly promote practicing. If the officers have to buy their own practice ammo yeah you can get .45acp cheaper most places.

Henry's Dad
11-14-2012, 11:19
[...] And come on. They are "testing" a G21 45acp? LIke the 21 or the 45acp has not been proven over an over already.

You make a very fair point, but I'm sure lawyers and politicians require the testing.

4949shooter
11-14-2012, 14:29
No.

Nothing toward the PSP in particular. I just cant stand that everytime some PD talks about switching calibers everyone wants to jump on the band wagon. LIke the PD is the final word on caliber. It's usually just because they got a new captain or cheif and they need to justify their job.

And come on. They are "testing" a G21 45acp? LIke the 21 or the 45acp has not been proven over an over already.

It is not only about testing the weapon for function, reliability, etc. It is important for large police agencies to test the prospective weapons with the people who will be issued same weapons. For example, the strong shooters, the weak shooters, the males with large hands, the females with small hands, patrol units, investigative units, etc. The weapon has to be a "fit" for the people using it. Not to test the weapons in this manner would be irresponsible.

dwhite53
11-14-2012, 16:19
What model Beretta were they carrying in .40?

All the Best,
D. White

Bruce M
11-14-2012, 16:35
... I will say that agencies that seek the CALEA accreditation can't have service weapons older than 4 yrs so if they update to new handguns they may as well switch. Good thing they never look at "KF" date coded USP.

what department uses the G21s ? or is individual officer choice ? thanks
One of the large agencies now issues a G17 but allows officers a G21 they purchase themselves.

Sometimes it's not low bidder, but minority bidder. Relatively few people here speak German.

Clutch Cargo
11-14-2012, 16:41
Here in DE (pa neighbor) the state police carry 229's in 357 SIG.

I'd love to get my hands on an agency trade-in.

NITE SITE 53
11-14-2012, 16:46
Massachusetts State Police have ordered 2,500 S&W M&P pistols in .45 and Vermont State Police are having theirs in .40. I know a lot of people think Glocks are ugly but I have never cared for the M&Ps.

triaxle
11-14-2012, 17:18
They Beretta 96 with robar finish for a while then went to the 96 with the heavey slide in 40 cal and they were D models

triaxle
11-14-2012, 17:25
The DOT guy I talked with was a gun type guy most are not . I told him about Glock talk he didnt know about it . He said the PSP had some shooting up their when they had 40 cal and the Win 180 didnt didnt work as good as they wanted . When the bad guy was in surgery the had to go in with him he said wnen those 40 were dug out they looked like you could reuse them. the 45 gap has been better . I think their gap guns are maybe about 6 to 8 years old

JBP55
11-14-2012, 17:41
The DOT guy I talked with was a gun type guy most are not . I told him about Glock talk he didnt know about it . He said the PSP had some shooting up their when they had 40 cal and the Win 180 didnt didnt work as good as they wanted . When the bad guy was in surgery the had to go in with him he said wnen those 40 were dug out they looked like you could reuse them. the 45 gap has been better . I think their gap guns are maybe about 6 to 8 years old



They changed calibers over ammunition not expanding in 1 shooting?
Sounds like an ammunition issue, not a caliber issue. They do not always expand as expected.

skiezics
11-14-2012, 19:18
What I heard is that the state police needed new guns to replace their worn out ones and for the new troopers that they were hiring. Beretta was no longer going to make the 96D. State Police were happy with the .40 S&W performance. They chose Glock and Glock offered them a better deal if they adopted the .45 GAP. That's just what I heard, who knows if it's true or not.

Paul53
11-15-2012, 14:16
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

I do.

triaxle
11-15-2012, 18:00
Their was more than one shooting with this ammo and poor stoping power. And they could not get the Beretta 96 D anymore so Glock it was . I Smith gets wind they may give their MP 45 to them.

JBP55
11-15-2012, 18:54
Their was more than one shooting with this ammo and poor stoping power. And they could not get the Beretta 96 D anymore so Glock it was . I Smith gets wind they may give their MP 45 to them.


The .40 works pretty well in most of the USA. Shot placement?

dkf
11-15-2012, 21:22
Their was more than one shooting with this ammo and poor stoping power. And they could not get the Beretta 96 D anymore so Glock it was . I Smith gets wind they may give their MP 45 to them.

There is negligible difference between .45gap and .45acp in ballistics, in fact several .45gap loads mimic some .45acp loads. The gap even uses the same bullets as the .45acp. There is +P in .45acp but that only slightly more velocity which does not mean much. Chances are that "failure" would have happened whether it was .45gap or .45acp.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
11-15-2012, 21:54
Since Cops open carry, and can carry extra full magazines.
A Glock 21's 13 rounds would be some great firepower.
45acp's also have better stopping power than the 45 Gap, due to more room for gunpowder.
Their all good choices, 9mm, .40's, .357 Sig.
But, if I was a Cop, open carrying, I would choose a G21.
Then carry a G19, G23 or G32 off duty.

tpr7304
11-18-2012, 08:49
jdw174.....sent you a pm.

ZO6Vettever
11-18-2012, 09:34
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

I do.

I do too.

LawScholar
11-18-2012, 09:41
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

I do. If you're just going to be a jerk, don't post in the thread. I happen to like threads like this. I personally don't enjoy how every third thread in GT these days is about atheism, abortion, gay people, or socialists and which one is ruining the country this week, but I'm not conceited enough to think every single thread on a discussion forum is going to be something I personally want to talk about.

OP: I think .45 ACP is a wiser choice than .45 GAP. I think the GAP was a pretty cool idea, but support for it makes .357 SIG and 10mm look mainstream. Logistically speaking, the .45 ACP makes a lot more sense.

District18
11-18-2012, 11:25
I feel bad for all those Troopers who bought back up GAPs.

Isn't true that PSP are only permitted to fire authorized ammunition from their duty pistol?

"Cold Dead Hands" !
11-18-2012, 13:06
Wish Glock would make a 45acp the same size as the S&W M&P full size double-stack
It's smaller than the G21 and easier to conceal carry.

Opie 1 Kenopie
11-18-2012, 15:24
They have been saying they are switching for about two years now. I don't foresee it happening. I will say that agencies that seek the CALEA accreditation can't have service weapons older than 4 yrs so if they update to new handguns they may as well switch.

Hmmmmm. Not sure about this info. My agency hooked up with CALEA last year, our commissioner I'd even in the national board, but we've had our "new" duty pistols about 5 or 6 years now.

As for the PSP and their GAP, face it. That round is dead or dying. It was a gimmicky attempt at fixing a problem that wasn't really affecting many people. The poster above mentioned that the GAP mimics the .45 ACP, so why not use the more popular, easier to find, field tested, veteran approved, doctor recommended round?

SiberianErik
11-18-2012, 15:32
Oh hell, just issue DE in .50AE and be done with it. While we are at it swap out the .22 varmint rifle AR's and go w/ a solid .375 H&H. Now when someone gets popped there will be no lame trip to the ER.

packinaglock
11-18-2012, 18:30
Wish Glock would make a 45acp the same size as the S&W M&P full size double-stack
It's smaller than the G21 and easier to conceal carry.

G30sf ?

dgbee456
11-18-2012, 18:32
G21sf would be ideal.

Buckeye63
11-18-2012, 20:51
Here in TN the State Police (Troopers) switched from G22 to G31 a few years back..I was told the 357Sig was better at penetrating Car doors and windshields...

I like the 45acp myself...

"Cold Dead Hands" !
11-18-2012, 21:44
G30sf ?
Yep, your right on.
But, I was just holding a S&W M&P45 a hour ago, and it felt good.
About the same size as a M&P40.
4.5" barrel, 10 round mags.
It feels much smaller than the G21.
It's a full size gun, but streamlined enough to carry easily.
Most of all, it has a 4.5" barrel, like the G21, which gives a big 230gr bullet enough speed to do the job.

Gallium
11-19-2012, 00:36
It is not only about testing the weapon for function, reliability, etc. It is important for large police agencies to test the prospective weapons with the people who will be issued same weapons. For example, the strong shooters, the weak shooters, the males with large hands, the females with small hands, patrol units, investigative units, etc. The weapon has to be a "fit" for the people using it. Not to test the weapons in this manner would be irresponsible.

And to add, testing for fit in holsters with summer gear, winter gear, teams that serve other purposes outside of classic "road patrol" (ESU/Rescue/SWAT), testing with flashlights, testing for fit on a belt that already has/needs 5-8 other items there, testing with gloves, etc.

A study on a flat piece of paper is great, but most of us don't buy even the most mundane of products without some hands on time with the product. We check out furniture, cars, beds, gloves, eyeglasses, etc.

What says a dept that is telling it's officers about a critical piece of gear they may have to, and in many cases, will have to roll the fate of their lives on?


Would you (not you 4949) be cool with buying and using a parachute because another agency tested it extensively? NOT ME! :)

4949shooter
11-19-2012, 03:23
Would you (not you 4949) be cool with buying and using a parachute because another agency tested it extensively? NOT ME! :)

Me neither!

jdw174
11-19-2012, 06:00
I feel bad for all those Troopers who bought back up GAPs.

Isn't true that PSP are only permitted to fire authorized ammunition from their duty pistol?

Unless things have changed...and I doubt it...only issued ammo is authorized in the duty weapon.

bmoore
11-19-2012, 11:55
Cool. Like an idiot I sold my 2004 G21 (light primer strikes). But totally redeemed myself with a G20SF.

packinaglock
11-19-2012, 15:40
Yep, your right on.
But, I was just holding a S&W M&P45 a hour ago, and it felt good.
About the same size as a M&P40.
4.5" barrel, 10 round mags.
It feels much smaller than the G21.
It's a full size gun, but streamlined enough to carry easily.
Most of all, it has a 4.5" barrel, like the G21, which gives a big 230gr bullet enough speed to do the job.

I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
11-19-2012, 20:40
I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.
Yeah, you got to hold one side by side, one in each hand.
The G19,23,32 are the perfect size, all around guns.
But the S&W M&P9 or .40 or 45 are not much bigger, and are all 9mm size frames.
And if you want a full size .45, that's still small enough to carry, this M&P45 is nice.
A friend of mine, a life long, die-hard .45acp, 1911 only owner.
I tried to talk him into a polymer gun for lighter weight carry.
He tried them all, but only liked the M&P45 with 4.5"barrel.
M&P's are not quite as good as Glocks.
But this M&P45 is just the right size, for a full size .45 that's still easy to conceal carry.
Why, because it's a full size 45 stuffed into a 9mm size frame !

DFin
11-19-2012, 23:12
.....

Tkz
11-20-2012, 05:46
I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

So is the G36 also.

SGT45
11-20-2012, 20:06
This is not happening in the near future, maybe a few years, but not now with the way the economy is going. I have had contact with numerous troopers, They know nothing about this. They offered;

1. PA has a large deficit and financial problems, can't substantiate cost of new holsters, Mag. Pouches, Magazines etc.
2. Nothing wrong with their present G37's.
3. They appear to like the G37 and have had excellent results in Trooper involved shootings.
4. They have ammo!!!!!
5. .45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

dkf
11-20-2012, 20:46
This is not happening in the near future, maybe a few years, but not now with the way the economy is going. I have had contact with numerous troopers, They know nothing about this. They offered;

1. PA has a large deficit and financial problems, can't substantiate cost of new holsters, Mag. Pouches, Magazines etc.
2. Nothing wrong with their present G37's.
3. They appear to like the G37 and have had excellent results in Trooper involved shootings.
4. They have ammo!!!!!
5. .45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

Thanks for the info.

Wasn't expecting the GAP to be cheaper but really it should be. Cheaper small pistol primer, less brass for the case and less powder.

gatorboy
11-21-2012, 07:58
Oh hell, just issue DE in .50AE and be done with it. While we are at it swap out the .22 varmint rifle AR's and go w/ a solid .375 H&H. Now when someone gets popped there will be no lame trip to the ER.


This I agree with.

PattonT
11-21-2012, 08:32
5. .45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.
That is because the ammo is being discontinued!




J/k! Were those from the same manufacturer and same style?

gatorboy
11-21-2012, 11:10
I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

Check them out, The 45C is almost exactly the size of the 19, a bit heavier but very substantial feeling also. Frame and slide are heavier, nice balance. Actually carries better than my 23 for some reason. Think the frame and slide are the same width as opposed to the wider frame, thinner slide of the small frame Glocks. The large frame Glocks are pretty even also but wider.

So is the G36 also.

It's thin but front to back on grip is long. The 6+1 Kahr P45 is much smaller in the grip, lighter, same barrel length and slide 1/2" shorter behind breech face. The 45C has much better ergonomics (have not met a single person who disagree's) and is 8+1 as a bonus. It is a slightly larger gun in all aspects but grip length. I have all three and carry my 36 slide on 29 frame with 30 mags or the P45 over the complete 36 without exception. It's nice being able to use 9,10 and 13 rd. mags with the 36 on top!

.45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

Why both? Does SWAT use ACP and patrol GAP or is there a choice? Seems there are better platforms for undercover considering all but the 36 have fat slides.

pag23
11-21-2012, 15:28
Interesting if they do go to .45 ACP in the future though.. I am not sure how good the GAP round is as I have no experience with it but I was told by the instructor at my Glock Armorer's class that it is "a tack driver" and pretty accurate. Are they using Speer Gold Dots???

How has the round performed for them?

Would they change for budgetary reasons or are they looking for performance?

blkt6
11-22-2012, 10:52
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

Found this on another website. more fuel for the caliber debate

PattonT
11-22-2012, 11:51
I have seen that same report before and to be honest it is why I no longer buy Gold Dots. I experienced some failure to expand out of the Gold Dots about that same time out of a different caliber. I will say in my opinion a 9/45/357 that penetrated that shallow and didn't expand probably wouldn't have made a difference.

denn1911
11-22-2012, 12:04
I'm always interested in police department's caliber choices. We transitioned from .40 to the .45 acp this past year. It was a long journey with extensive testing.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
11-22-2012, 12:47
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

Found this on another website. more fuel for the caliber debate
Wow !
Who would have believed that was possibe

JBP55
11-22-2012, 15:50
Wow !
Who would have believed that was possibe


It can happen with any pistol caliber and Gold Dot is one of the best rounds available. Shot Placement Matters.

dvrdwn72
11-22-2012, 16:12
Since Cops open carry, and can carry extra full magazines.
A Glock 21's 13 rounds would be some great firepower.
45acp's also have better stopping power than the 45 Gap, due to more room for gunpowder.
Their all good choices, 9mm, .40's, .357 Sig.
But, if I was a Cop, open carrying, I would choose a G21.
Then carry a G19, G23 or G32 off duty.If it was me id choose the 20 for duty and 29 for off duty:whistling:

dvrdwn72
11-22-2012, 16:20
The sp here in Fl like their 37's, at least the ones I know say they do. Our county pd issues the gen 4 22,23,27 and like them alot. They are currently testin the fn 40's now and most would rather keep the glocks.

JBP55
11-22-2012, 16:57
If it was me id choose the 20 for duty and 29 for off duty:whistling:


Many have trouble shooting the G22. Scores would surely drop with the G20 and very few could qualify with the G29.

Gallium
11-22-2012, 16:58
It can happen with any pistol caliber and Gold Dot is one of the best rounds available. Shot Placement Matters.


I downloaded the PDF file and briefly skimmed it.



Shot placement does not count if rounds are only penetrating 1" deep into the thoracic cavity.




Dude had a ruptured aorta and a destroyed lung, and they had to "fight him" to cuff him? And he already had a broken femur and a shattered hip as well as a bullet lodged in his throat and THIRTEEN other rounds that went thru his body as well as another 4-6 that were in him?

That dude was the outlier/exception to the rule. The only way he was going down in that instant, in that instance, was to shut the lights off (direct CNS hit, opening his head up and spreading brain matter all over; or a brain stem hit).

rockapede
11-22-2012, 18:03
I downloaded the PDF file and briefly skimmed it.



Shot placement does not count if rounds are only penetrating 1" deep into the thoracic cavity.




Dude had a ruptured aorta and a destroyed lung, and they had to "fight him" to cuff him? And he already had a broken femur and a shattered hip as well as a bullet lodged in his throat and THIRTEEN other rounds that went thru his body as well as another 4-6 that were in him?

That dude was the outlier/exception to the rule. The only way he was going down in that instant, in that instance, was to shut the lights off (direct CNS hit, opening his head up and spreading brain matter all over; or a brain stem hit).

The rounds didn't only penetrate 1". That was misinformation/a typo in the original ME report. There are several expanded bullets in the x-ray photographs; full expansion is simply impossible with only an inch of penetration. The FBI testing concluded the pistol rounds performed to standard.

Gallium
11-22-2012, 18:21
The rounds didn't only penetrate 1". That was misinformation/a typo in the original ME report. There are several expanded bullets in the x-ray photographs; full expansion is simply impossible with only an inch of penetration. The FBI testing concluded the pistol rounds performed to standard.

Ok. I have the file on my phone, so viewing is limited (the JHPs).

Good to hear the bullets performed to specification. Unfortunately, anyone who takes that many hits, including a hit to the aorta AND a lung... and is offering resistance to being handcuffed, that is a determined MF right there. I want to be the dude reading about it on the web instead of being the dude confronting that dude with a pistol.

Thank you for the clarification.

- G

rockapede
11-22-2012, 18:23
Ok. I have the file on my phone, so viewing is limited (the JHPs).

Good to hear the bullets performed to specification. Unfortunately, anyone who takes that many hits, including a hit to the aorta AND a lung... and is offering resistance to being handcuffed, that is a determined MF right there. I want to be the dude reading about it on the web instead of being the dude confronting that dude with a pistol.

Thank you for the clarification.

- G

No problem. The presentation is laid out in such a way that it's misleading, although I don't think that was intentional.

SGT45
11-22-2012, 22:23
That is because the ammo is being discontinued!




J/k! Were those from the same manufacturer and same style?

Yes, Federal FMJ's. Same price for the Gold Dots in both calibers.

hunter won
11-23-2012, 08:15
I've heard this rumor at a gun shop in Honesdale PA. The reason was getting ammo for officers to shoot on their own time. The .45 G.A.P. has a very good track record with the NYSP. The 200 grain Gold Dot has proven to expand in these OIS. From actual tests the .45 G.A.P. performed better than the .40 S&W. The Gen 4 G21 would be my choice, however, the G37 has a smaller grip and easier for smaller officers to shoot. Troopers do like the G37, some even say it recoils the same as the G17 and more accurate.

JBP55
11-23-2012, 11:43
I've heard this rumor at a gun shop in Honesdale PA. The reason was getting ammo for officers to shoot on their own time. The .45 G.A.P. has a very good track record with the NYSP. The 200 grain Gold Dot has proven to expand in these OIS. From actual tests the .45 G.A.P. performed better than the .40 S&W. The Gen 4 G21 would be my choice, however, the G37 has a smaller grip and easier for smaller officers to shoot. Troopers do like the G37, some even say it recoils the same as the G17 and more accurate.

Link to the ammunition test?

OKMike
11-29-2012, 23:07
Got this from my uncle at my grandmother's funeral a year ago. His son (my cousin) is a firearms instructor for PSP. He doesn't like the GAP because sometimes it fails to feed. My cousin feels it is because it is a short fat stubby round. That has been his experience with the 45GAP, he doesn't like it, as he says "my girls must work every time"
FWIW

Inebriated
11-29-2012, 23:44
If they're going to switch to anything, why wouldn't they switch to .357 Sig? Better barrier penetration than .45, if I remember right. And more rounds.

No.

Nothing toward the PSP in particular. I just cant stand that everytime some PD talks about switching calibers everyone wants to jump on the band wagon. LIke the PD is the final word on caliber. It's usually just because they got a new captain or cheif and they need to justify their job.

And come on. They are "testing" a G21 45acp? LIke the 21 or the 45acp has not been proven over an over already.
And I can't stand when people who know they'll just complain about the subject, still go in the thread.

IllinoisGun
11-30-2012, 06:48
I would imagine the Penn State cop-chicks would have something to say about switching to a larger caliber being that they are of the lowest common denominator and any male dominated line of work.

PattonT
11-30-2012, 07:23
I'm not believing this but I just heard that NYSP just switched to 357Sig after only having the GAP for 4 years. Any NYSP here?

SCmasterblaster
11-30-2012, 08:06
Hey PA, go for the Glock Model 21!!!

And G36s for the small-handed women.

vanilla_gorilla
11-30-2012, 08:44
I'm not believing this but I just heard that NYSP just switched to 357Sig after only having the GAP for 4 years. Any NYSP here?

IIRC, 4 years is the replacement interval under CALEA. If you're going to make a change, that's the time to do it.

Now when you have less than 2 years between changes, there's something up. So it was with the local PD and their Sig P220s. They had a large number of failures (related to sample size) and contacted Sig, who promptly told them to pound sand. Less than 2 years later...Glocks all around.

gatorboy
11-30-2012, 10:17
I'm not believing this but I just heard that NYSP just switched to 357Sig after only having the GAP for 4 years. Any NYSP here?

I have typed this 100 times here on GT but here it is again...

45ACP,GAP are fine SD rounds for most people, especially when automobiles are not involved. For State Troopers, I believe the penetration and capacity the 357auto offers over them is substantial and can't be denied. If I were making the decision, my Troopers would have a 5" 357auto in Glock or M&P flavor with a 90 degree forward rotate design holster for in the cruiser. Train to slap it back on exiting the vehicle and you already have 50% more rds. on tap with no mag change iin addition to better barrier penetration. This all equals more troopers coming home to their family's at the end of their shift's. The 45 (ACP or GAP) is the worst choice for Highway Patrol, IMO.

I hope NYSP along with our Troopers here in Florida make the change soon.

Iceman cHucK
11-30-2012, 11:33
I was told by a reliable source that PSP will be going to the G21 sometime early next year.

gatorboy
11-30-2012, 12:51
I was told by a reliable source that PSP will be going to the G21 sometime early next year.

Considering you can't get any closer to "ballistic twins", this is really bad for the GAP. Capacity is'nt even much more and I know they have at least one female and at least one male trooper with small hands. Maybe they'll issue +P which the GAP can't come close to? Maybe they want to use a GD 230 which is'nt made in GAP?

Slug71
11-30-2012, 18:43
I'm not believing this but I just heard that NYSP just switched to 357Sig after only having the GAP for 4 years. Any NYSP here?

I'm calling BS. .357sig ammo is more expensive than GAP.
I also can't find any sources to back this up.

dkf
11-30-2012, 18:45
I'm calling BS. .357sig ammo is more expensive than GAP.
I also can't find any sources to back this up.

No it is not, especially with contract prices.

PattonT
11-30-2012, 18:50
I'm calling BS. .357sig ammo is more expensive than GAP.
I also can't find any sources to back this up.

They didn't say why. I'm asking if anyone else has knowledge.

mrsurfboard
12-01-2012, 00:34
As suspected. The state PDs that got the free GAP guns are switching away to a more mainstream caliber. And to the joker that said who cares what the PSP do, funny how GAPers would always use state police use as a justification for the Glock glamour round, but now that they are switching, it's "who cares".

Iceman cHucK
12-01-2012, 10:53
These moves by the State police agencies are "coffin nails" for the GAP!

mrsurfboard
12-01-2012, 16:54
These moves by the State police agencies are "coffin nails" for the GAP!

I called this long ago. As the GAP freebes go end of life, they will be replaced by mainstream calibers. The GAP is a failed round, face it.

tuica
12-01-2012, 17:08
Many of us on these gun related sites have something of an interest in the weapons carried by police and other professional agencies - right?Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

hunter won
12-17-2012, 14:05
I called this long ago. As the GAP freebes go end of life, they will be replaced by mainstream calibers. The GAP is a failed round, face it. Many small agencies are happy with the .45 GAP as are the state police. I doubt the caliber is being discontinued any time soon.

SGT45
09-19-2013, 22:03
Well, I was WRONG in several posts over the past 2 years.

Yes, I admit I was WRONG. At least I will admit it. I really thought because of the economy, Odumba admin. etc. that PSP would not transition to the G21G4. Well, They did! They are starting to slowly transition. PSP will be issuing G21G4's with TAC lights attached(not sure which ones yet or which holster).

We have since traded out our G37's and G38's. Guess we will soon be just .45 ACP and .40 S&W. I am sad to report .45 GAP is being phased out.

Recently, I have received info. (from a FBI agent) that several Federal agencies maybe going back to 9mm. Any one heard the same??????

madAB
09-19-2013, 23:07
One of my friends is a PSP trooper, and we were talking guns 3 weeks ago. He said the same to me that you mentioned above. He is getting issued a Gen 4 G21 with a tac light attached. He said he would not be purchasing his currently issued .45 gap.

BuckyP
09-20-2013, 03:04
Well, I was WRONG in several posts over the past 2 years.

Yes, I admit I was WRONG. At least I will admit it. I really thought because of the economy, Odumba admin. etc. that PSP would not transition to the G21G4. Well, They did! They are starting to slowly transition. PSP will be issuing G21G4's with TAC lights attached(not sure which ones yet or which holster).

We have since traded out our G37's and G38's. Guess we will soon be just .45 ACP and .40 S&W. I am sad to report .45 GAP is being phased out.

Recently, I have received info. (from a FBI agent) that several Federal agencies maybe going back to 9mm. Any one heard the same??????

What .40s are still in use? Did some keep their Berettas?

JBP55
09-20-2013, 06:54
Recently, I have received info. (from a FBI agent) that several Federal agencies maybe going back to 9mm. Any one heard the same??????



I heard they were considering going back to the 9mm for several months now.

DFin
09-22-2013, 16:00
.....

grizz
09-22-2013, 16:10
If they think they made a mistake in choosing the GAP they need to LIVE WITH IT and not correct it with taxpayer money!!!!!

Glocks are made to last a long time. Maybe in 30 years they can get new guns!!!!

They may not be using taxpayer funds. Many agencies (mine included) use seizure money + trade-in guns to get it done.
Also the reason could be an important factor. If they are having problems getting ammo for training/duty, I would say that's a good reason for dumping the guns. That is assuming the problem is based on the cartridge and not the availability of ammo in general.
DISCLAIMER: I don't know what the reason is for the trade.

4949shooter
09-22-2013, 16:17
If they think they made a mistake in choosing the GAP they need to LIVE WITH IT and not correct it with taxpayer money!!!!!

Glocks are made to last a long time. Maybe in 30 years they can get new guns!!!!

Relax about the taxpayer's money. Those guns were most likely traded even up for the issue guns they had. Aside from that they will probably swap even up for the Glock 21's. It benefits Glock to have major law enforcement agency utilizing their weapons, you know.

It's a win for Glock, a win for the PASP, and a win for the taxpayers.

Also, and most importantly, the PA troopers will have a gun in which they have confidence to stake their lives on.

PaLEOjd
09-22-2013, 16:53
If they think they made a mistake in choosing the GAP they need to LIVE WITH IT and not correct it with taxpayer money!!!!!

Glocks are made to last a long time. Maybe in 30 years they can get new guns!!!!



As a LEO myself, and Pennsylvania resident I am glad to see PSP make the switch. Like stated above, there is no money involved so stop crying about taxpayer money, it will be an even swap.
There was no mistake made, it's a matter of availability and cost of ammunition in the current times. If anything, you should be happy they are making the switch to SAVE your taxpayer money on the cost of ammunition.
More ammo. = more practice time, a good thing for everybody.

You seem really concerned about taxpayer dollars going to waste. Maybe you should complain to the politicians in the Federal Govt. who are throwing all of our money away by giving it to foreign countries by the hundreds of thousands.
Also be sure to complain about giving the money you work for away to someone who is to lazy to get a job and sits at home collecting public assistance for their entire life.

BuckyP
09-23-2013, 12:02
You seem really concerned about taxpayer dollars going to waste. Maybe you should complain to the politicians in the Federal Govt. who are throwing all of our money away by giving it to foreign countries by the tens of billions.
Also be sure to complain about giving the money you work for away to someone who is to lazy to get a job and sits at home collecting public assistance for their entire life.


Fixed it for you, and amen!

PattonT
11-29-2013, 06:27
Word is that they have switched to Gen 4 G 21s, can anyone confirm?

iLift45's
11-29-2013, 06:57
Smart move! There's a reason the SpecOp community is returning to the .45. It works. I love my Gen 4 21! Holds a lot of rounds, accurate, and puts big holes in things.

ShallNotBeInfringed
11-29-2013, 07:21
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

I do. When a member takes the time to post gun experiences, some of us appreciate it. How about you rain in.

sent from my rotary wall phone

dkf
11-29-2013, 07:27
Word is that they have switched to Gen 4 G 21s, can anyone confirm?

They are currently in PSP holsters.

jdw174
11-29-2013, 08:18
Word is that they have switched to Gen 4 G 21s, can anyone confirm?

My last issue of The Communicator (PSP Newsletter), the commissioner confirmed the G21 with tactical light attached. Believe the holsters are Safariland, but don't quote me on that part.

Bruce M
11-29-2013, 08:54
If they think they made a mistake in choosing the GAP they need to LIVE WITH IT and not correct it with taxpayer money!!!!!

Glocks are made to last a long time. Maybe in 30 years they can get new guns!!!!

As suggested it may not be a costly or taxpayer funded issue. But just to make sure you should probably petition the legislature to make sure they do not spend money in a manner you do not think is appropriate.

jeremiahjj
11-29-2013, 11:44
I do.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

So do I! So there, jerk! :tongueout::tongueout::tongueout::tongueout::tongueout::tongueout:

kilibreaux
11-29-2013, 15:13
Pulled over today for DOT check and when finished got on the subject of Glocks which they have G 37 in the Gap. The officer said they are testing G21 in 45acp right now . and he did not care for the old Beretta 40 cal they had . The officer was courteous .Every thing was good on my spot check.


WHY would they have adopted the .45GAP (one would assume after some degree of testing, though it IS Pennsylvania - isn't that a TV)?
The .45GAP is the BETTER choice for anyone wanting "stock" performance from the .45ACP/GAP "family" (sorry ACP lovers your GAP cousins have indeed come to town and are moving in!)
The GAP is the same frame size as the 9mm/.40/.357Sig family...meaning it fits a lot of hands really well. The GAP fires a round ballistically IDENTICAL to the ACP - slightly more potent actually, which tends to mean "better" to everyone but die-hard 1911 .45ACP worshipers who each and every one carry small "Gris gris" bags around their necks filled with metal shavings from the original JMB prototype, along with a tiny sliver of JMB's pubic hair (ran out of head hair) in order that they be blessed by the Zorastrian Gods of big bluntness!
However...the GAP is THE Glock .45 pistol too carry! Why in Atch-EE-double toothpicks would they want to change it?!?


Sounds spurious.

pag23
11-29-2013, 15:21
My last issue of The Communicator (PSP Newsletter), the commissioner confirmed the G21 with tactical light attached. Believe the holsters are Safariland, but don't quote me on that part.

I believe the light is an surefire x300. Good move on the state police to go to the g21.

Hope you are enjoying your retirement in TN. :wavey:

Henny
11-29-2013, 17:33
My last issue of The Communicator (PSP Newsletter), the commissioner confirmed the G21 with tactical light attached. Believe the holsters are Safariland, but don't quote me on that part.

Yes, the holsters are Safarilands and the lights are Surefire X300 Ultras.

It's good to be retired! :cool:

hunter won
12-19-2013, 07:57
The newer Gen 4 G21 is a great choice. The G37 Gen 4 is a pleasure to shoot. Very accurate. The Illinois cop got rid of his G21 for a G17 for a reason!

JBP55
12-19-2013, 08:18
WHY would they have adopted the .45GAP (one would assume after some degree of testing, though it IS Pennsylvania - isn't that a TV)?
The .45GAP is the BETTER choice for anyone wanting "stock" performance from the .45ACP/GAP "family" (sorry ACP lovers your GAP cousins have indeed come to town and are moving in!)
The GAP is the same frame size as the 9mm/.40/.357Sig family...meaning it fits a lot of hands really well. The GAP fires a round ballistically IDENTICAL to the ACP - slightly more potent actually, which tends to mean "better" to everyone but die-hard 1911 .45ACP worshipers who each and every one carry small "Gris gris" bags around their necks filled with metal shavings from the original JMB prototype, along with a tiny sliver of JMB's pubic hair (ran out of head hair) in order that they be blessed by the Zorastrian Gods of big bluntness!
However...the GAP is THE Glock .45 pistol too carry! Why in Atch-EE-double toothpicks would they want to change it?!?


Sounds spurious.


:upeyes: :upeyes: :upeyes:

glock2740
12-19-2013, 08:44
I just checked ammo prices on SGAmmo.com, one of my sources with good prices. I can't do direct comparisons due to differences in the stock for GAP and ACP, but I can't really see any significant differences in the ammo prices. In some cases, you could say the .45 ACP costs more.

Typical GAPper nonsense. :upeyes: Very first place I checked for a direct comparison...
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-45-acp-speer-le-gold-dot-185gr-hp-ammo/cName/45-acp-hollow-point

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-45-gap-speer-gold-dot-185gr-hp-ammo/cName/45-gap-hollow-point

Only a $10 difference, with 45GAP being higher.

glock2740
12-19-2013, 08:53
Second place I looked for direct comparison, and 45GAP $3 more per box. Not to mention the ammo choices and selections aren't even in the same league.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/sellier-bellot/50-round-box-45-gap-230-grain-fmj-ammo-sellier-bellot-sb45gap-read-description

http://www.sgammo.com/product/sellier-bellot/50-round-box-45-auto-230-grain-fmj-sellier-bellot-brass-case-ammo-limit-20-bo

Dalton Wayne
12-19-2013, 09:07
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing
What is it with newbs trolling others threads
get a life troll

March817
12-19-2013, 12:50
I suppose if I was to ever buy a GAP it would have to be a used G39, preferably with some department markings, assuming G39s were ever issued.

Tiro Fijo
12-19-2013, 13:27
Smart move! There's a reason the SpecOp community is returning to the .45. It works. I love my Gen 4 21! Holds a lot of rounds, accurate, and puts big holes in things.







http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

fastbolt
12-19-2013, 15:31
If everyone can keep this thread going long enough, it can include the next pistol make/model/caliber adopted after this transition to .45 ACP ... :whistling:

hunter 111
12-19-2013, 15:53
A PSP Trooper told me he could not get the dept to give him any extra .45 GAP ammo. He said that when they carried .40 cal. Beretta's he could usually get an extra box or two of ammo. I'm not sure how much GAP ammo they are issued ie: a 50 round box or just the 31 rounds carried on their person.

Here in miami, most officers carry G21's or G22's.

A Miami cop sees more stuff in a day thsn a Pa cop in his lifetime

gwdex
12-19-2013, 16:04
No.

Nothing toward the PSP in particular. I just cant stand that everytime some PD talks about switching calibers everyone wants to jump on the band wagon. LIke the PD is the final word on caliber. It's usually just because they got a new captain or cheif and they need to justify their job.

And come on. They are "testing" a G21 45acp? LIke the 21 or the 45acp has not been proven over an over already.

Wow, sense a bit of hostility !

Good post OP. Thanks for the info.

Henny
12-19-2013, 20:42
:A Miami cop sees more stuff in a day thsn a Pa cop in his lifetime


:upeyes:

faawrenchbndr
12-19-2013, 20:48
A Miami cop sees more stuff in a day thsn a Pa cop in his lifetime

That is entirely possible.........could not wait to get out of Miami.
Harder to believe this thread is dragging on after a year!

DFin
12-20-2013, 05:52
[QUOTE=hunter 111;20848550]A Miami cop sees more stuff in a day thsn a Pa cop in his lifetime[/QUOTE


More than a Phila. or Chester cop?

BuckyP
12-20-2013, 07:30
That is entirely possible.........could not wait to get out of Miami.
Harder to believe this thread is dragging on after a year!

The goal is to keep it going straight through to the next PA State Police sidearm change.

--- time travel ---
:trek::trek:

Did anyone hear that the PA State Police will be trading in their Phase Plasma Pistol in a 25 Watt range to the new DL-40 Heavy blaster?? :wow:

District18
12-20-2013, 07:37
[QUOTE=hunter 111;20848550]A Miami cop sees more stuff in a day thsn a Pa cop in his lifetime[/QUOTE


More than a Phila. or Chester cop?

I see quite a lot.

tercel89
12-20-2013, 09:11
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

That type of attitude and rudeness is why Glocktalk.com gets a bad reputation . Have some respect .

iLift45's
12-21-2013, 04:39
http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

Wow! I wonder why he went from the Glock 21 to the Glock 17? I would almost bet that if he would have used the 17 the 9mm rounds wouldn't have gone through the windshield and done much if any damage.

JBP55
12-21-2013, 05:03
Wow! I wonder why he went from the Glock 21 to the Glock 17? I would almost bet that if he would have used the 17 the 9mm rounds wouldn't have gone through the windshield and done much if any damage.

Windshield tests with Speer Gold Dot.

Product Tested


Test Results


Recovered Bullet
53617 Velocity 1220 Recovered Bullet
9mm Luger +P Penetration 14.95
124 Expansion .543
1220 Retained Weight 103.9
GDHP

Product Tested


Test Results


Recovered Bullet
53962 Velocity 1025 Recovered Bullet
40 S&W Penetration 12.75
180 Expansion .612
1025 Retained Weight 154.4
GDHP

Product Tested


Test Results


Recovered Bullet
53966 Velocity 890 Recovered Bullet
45 Auto Penetration 13.10
230 Expansion .609
890 Retained Weight 217.5
GDHP

iLift45's
12-21-2013, 05:16
Windshield tests with Speer Gold Dot.

Product Tested


Test Results


Recovered Bullet
53617 Velocity 1220 Recovered Bullet
9mm Luger +P Penetration 14.95
124 Expansion .543
1220 Retained Weight 103.9
GDHP

Product Tested


Test Results


Recovered Bullet
53962 Velocity 1025 Recovered Bullet
40 S&W Penetration 12.75
180 Expansion .612
1025 Retained Weight 154.4
GDHP

Product Tested


Test Results


Recovered Bullet
53966 Velocity 890 Recovered Bullet
45 Auto Penetration 13.10
230 Expansion .609
890 Retained Weight 217.5
GDHP

Interesting details. I guess what I should have originally asked was how much energy is the 9mm going to have going through a windshield and taking down somebody on the other side?

JBP55
12-21-2013, 06:39
Interesting details. I guess what I should have originally asked was how much energy is the 9mm going to have going through a windshield and taking down somebody on the other side?


There is very little difference in the energy level of the 9mm and .45 Gold Dot rounds listed above at close ranges.

fasteddie565
12-21-2013, 09:03
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

Yet you feel compelled to both read and post about it. I am interested in this as an avid GAP owner and shooter (and former Pennsylvanian).

Thanks for your valuable input.

Keeping it going.........

S. Kelly
12-21-2013, 09:37
I wish I was issued a gen4 Glock 21 (or gen4 G30) for work. Good choice for PSP and I believe Phila PD.

Henny
03-12-2014, 04:04
If everyone can keep this thread going long enough, it can include the next pistol make/model/caliber adopted after this transition to .45 ACP ... :whistling:


Which just may happen sooner than you think. There's reportedly been problems with the Gen4 21s the PSP got -as in the slides were prematurely locking back and the trigger not resetting.

They are permitting troopers to carry personal weapons and already seeking a replacement.

Gary1911A1
03-12-2014, 06:40
Which just may happen sooner than you think. There's reportedly been problems with the Gen4 21s the PSP got -as in the slides were prematurely locking back and the trigger not resetting.

They are permitting troopers to carry personal weapons and already seeking a replacement.

What has happen to Glock. The 1st, 2nd ans army 3rd Generations, at least in 9MM were fine. Clean, lube and go shooting, but now that seems to be a thing of the pass. :headscratch:

BuckyP
03-12-2014, 07:43
Which just may happen sooner than you think. There's reportedly been problems with the Gen4 21s the PSP got -as in the slides were prematurely locking back and the trigger not resetting.

They are permitting troopers to carry personal weapons and already seeking a replacement.

Wow, that's a big move for the PSP. The few that I've spoken too said duty gear was very strict, right down to where everything must be worn on the belt.

bcj128
03-12-2014, 11:06
That's too bad. My G21 Gen4 has been flawless. Carrying it on duty as we speak.


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JuneyBooney
03-12-2014, 11:50
A Miami cop sees more stuff in a day thsn a Pa cop in his lifetime

Not if you are in Philly. :faint:

captaintrips
03-12-2014, 12:06
Not if you are in Philly. :faint:

While not as bad as Miami or Philly, meth heads up here in farm country PA keep our local LEOs quite busy.

Henny
03-12-2014, 14:07
Wow, that's a big move for the PSP. The few that I've spoken too said duty gear was very strict, right down to where everything must be worn on the belt.

Yes, it was quite a shock for me to hear that too!

SGT45
03-12-2014, 20:47
Which just may happen sooner than you think. There's reportedly been problems with the Gen4 21s the PSP got -as in the slides were prematurely locking back and the trigger not resetting.

They are permitting troopers to carry personal weapons and already seeking a replacement.

Yes you are right. Glock replaced all of the trigger bars on PSP G21G4's this past weekend. Apparently the problem could not be replicated with DUTY rds. just practice ammo.

Many rumors floating around, like they are dumping Glocks for Sig P227's or M&P's. These rumors are unsubstantiated and they are keeping the G21G4's for now.

oldman11
03-12-2014, 21:42
I have typed this 100 times here on GT but here it is again...

45ACP,GAP are fine SD rounds for most people, especially when automobiles are not involved. For State Troopers, I believe the penetration and capacity the 357auto offers over them is substantial and can't be denied. If I were making the decision, my Troopers would have a 5" 357auto in Glock or M&P flavor with a 90 degree forward rotate design holster for in the cruiser. Train to slap it back on exiting the vehicle and you already have 50% more rds. on tap with no mag change iin addition to better barrier penetration. This all equals more troopers coming home to their family's at the end of their shift's. The 45 (ACP or GAP) is the worst choice for Highway Patrol, IMO.

I hope NYSP along with our Troopers here in Florida make the change soon.
You hit the nail right on the head Gator. The only thing I would add is the 10mm. But most women, and smaller men don't handle to 10mm that well.

PattonT
03-13-2014, 00:08
Gatorboy, I will not argue that 45acp/gap is a poor performer against barriers, engines, doors, and even body armor. Something that 45acp/gap is good at is not being deflected through glass.

Deployment Solu
03-13-2014, 07:05
I will take all the .45 GAP range brass that anyone is willing to send to me!!!I will even pay shipping!!!LOL!!!

Iceman cHucK
03-13-2014, 21:14
A good friend of mine who is on the PSP confirmed with me today that their Gen4 G21s were recalled and new trigger bars installed to fix a trigger reset problem. This did not fix the problems and speculation there are frame issues. Meanwhile they can carry their GAPs or other weapons they have qualified with. He said they are looking at M&P or Sig to replace the Glock. Also, somewhere on this forum, a member reported having trigger reset problems with his new G41 using hot ammo. I believe the same frames are used on both. This problem is a reliability "show stopper" in my opinion. the weapon must go bang when you need it to!

SGT45
03-13-2014, 23:11
A good friend of mine who is on the PSP confirmed with me today that their Gen4 G21s were recalled and new trigger bars installed to fix a trigger reset problem. This did not fix the problems and speculation there are frame issues. Meanwhile they can carry their GAPs or other weapons they have qualified with. He said they are looking at M&P or Sig to replace the Glock. Also, somewhere on this forum, a member reported having trigger reset problems with his new G41 using hot ammo. I believe the same frames are used on both. This problem is a reliability "show stopper" in my opinion. the weapon must go bang when you need it to!

Well, I guess our PSP friends have differing views. I am in PA, you are over the hills toward the Pacific?

Yes there was a somewhat recall- Bring your G21G4's to station. New trigger bars installed.

Yes, they were told you can carry reissued G37's or previously qualified pistols until "issues" have been resolved.

Issues were with practice Speer ammo. Problems were not replicated with duty rounds. Supposedly there were less than 30 pistols that there were problems with.

Did the contract insist on "immediate delivery?'. Possibly resulting in some spec issues?

Rumor has it (unsubstantiated), Someone in the Firearms division wasn't happy with the decision to go with Glock in last round of testing-searching for .45ACP instead of .45GAP, and they wanted SIG or S&W (maybe for a job after soon to be retirement?, just saying) Time will tell. But this could definately be a "Black eye" for GLOCK. If this is a real "problem" I may just lose some respect for Glock and GLOCK PERFECTION!

Slug71
03-13-2014, 23:55
Sound like they should have stuck with the G37s. :whistling:

fastbolt
03-14-2014, 00:40
It's not common, but sometimes a production problem can occur with assemblies like trigger bars, and it's not recognized until a certain bunch of guns reach user/owner hands.

I remember learning of when another very well known & respected gun, widely used in LE/Gov circles, was bought by a state agency many years ago. The first shipment of a couple hundred of the new guns had improperly machined trigger bars that caused the guns to "decock" upon trigger press, dropping the hammers but not allowing the guns to fire. :wow:

The company diagnosed the problem, but said it would take a couple months to get new replacement trigger bars, so that new shipment of guns had to be taken out-of-service until they could get new trigger bars.

Sometimes things happen during manufacturing that may not be caught and corrected as quickly as either a gun company, or the user/owner, might wish. They're still just machines, you know.

vista461
03-14-2014, 11:14
I have typed this 100 times here on GT but here it is again...



45ACP,GAP are fine SD rounds for most people, especially when automobiles are not involved. For State Troopers, I believe the penetration and capacity the 357auto offers over them is substantial and can't be denied. If I were making the decision, my Troopers would have a 5" 357auto in Glock or M&P flavor with a 90 degree forward rotate design holster for in the cruiser. Train to slap it back on exiting the vehicle and you already have 50% more rds. on tap with no mag change iin addition to better barrier penetration. This all equals more troopers coming home to their family's at the end of their shift's. The 45 (ACP or GAP) is the worst choice for Highway Patrol, IMO.



I hope NYSP along with our Troopers here in Florida make the change soon.


A G31 .357 sig only has 2 more rounds than a G21 .45acp 15 vs 13. It does have 5 more than a gap, but you're combining both .45 guns in your argument. And I don't get the 90degree rotating holster, I'm able to draw and fire from inside of a Crown Vic with a normal Safariland 6360 just fine. Just did it in inservice last month. If my holster was rotated 90 degree it would be harder for me to draw.

Iceman cHucK
03-14-2014, 14:41
Well, I guess our PSP friends have differing views. I am in PA, you are over the hills toward the Pacific?

Yes there was a somewhat recall- Bring your G21G4's to station. New trigger bars installed.

Yes, they were told you can carry reissued G37's or previously qualified pistols until "issues" have been resolved.

Issues were with practice Speer ammo. Problems were not replicated with duty rounds. Supposedly there were less than 30 pistols that there were problems with.

Did the contract insist on "immediate delivery?'. Possibly resulting in some spec issues?

Rumor has it (unsubstantiated), Someone in the Firearms division wasn't happy with the decision to go with Glock in last round of testing-searching for .45ACP instead of .45GAP, and they wanted SIG or S&W (maybe for a job after soon to be retirement?, just saying) Time will tell. But this could definately be a "Black eye" for GLOCK. If this is a real "problem" I may just lose some respect for Glock and GLOCK PERFECTION!


My PSP friend and I were neighbors for many years in PA before I moved west to WA in 2012 where I am a Special Deputy in a local county. My communication with him was by text messaging and I would say our info is in agreement with you having more details. Thanks for your input and we now have two separate sources confirming that there have been problems. He told me today that his dept. was fairly disgusted with Glock. The SIGs may be too expensive and that he" thinks" they will go to the S&W M&P ! Agree that this is unsubstantiated opinion.
I have a two year old Gen4 G21 that runs fine, but am losing confidence in the platform rapidly, especially in Gen4. I am a fan of 1911s and the FNX45s. Just bought a SIG 227 in 45 that's still NIB. Indiana SP are going to the 227.

BuckyP
03-14-2014, 14:47
My PSP friend and I were neighbors for many years in PA before I moved west to WA in 2012 where I am a Special Deputy in a local county. My communication with him was by text messaging and I would say our info is in agreement with you having more details. Thanks for your input and we now have two separate sources confirming that there have been problems. He told me today that his dept. was fairly disgusted with Glock. The SIGs may be too expensive and that he" thinks" they will go to the S&W M&P ! Agree that this is unsubstantiated opinion.
I have a two year old Gen4 G21 that runs fine, but am losing confidence in the platform rapidly, especially in Gen4. I am a fan of 1911s and the FNX45s. Just bought a SIG 227 in 45 that's still NIB. Indiana SP are going to the 227.

Not only the cost, but the M&P will be more similar in arms to the GLOCKs they used before.

SGT45
03-14-2014, 22:20
My PSP friend and I were neighbors for many years in PA before I moved west to WA in 2012 where I am a Special Deputy in a local county. My communication with him was by text messaging and I would say our info is in agreement with you having more details. Thanks for your input and we now have two separate sources confirming that there have been problems. He told me today that his dept. was fairly disgusted with Glock. The SIGs may be too expensive and that he" thinks" they will go to the S&W M&P ! Agree that this is unsubstantiated opinion.
I have a two year old Gen4 G21 that runs fine, but am losing confidence in the platform rapidly, especially in Gen4. I am a fan of 1911s and the FNX45s. Just bought a SIG 227 in 45 that's still NIB. Indiana SP are going to the 227.

ICE, My PD issues the G21G4's and G30G4's. We haven't had any problems, but we may not be up to the round count PSP had (800 rds PSP started to have problems). I do think PSP is being a little too tough. Glock came right out and replaced parts. They will probably offer to replace all the pistols just to make PSP happy. As stated before, the SIG is another platform/action that they will have to provide at least a couple of weeks worth of additional training, get new holsters and Mag. pouches. The S&W maybe a option and I am sure they will deal, and make a sweet deal. But then again, S&W has had their share of problems- NCHP and Atlanta PD dumped their M&P's. I have talked to numerous troopers at the barracks here. They like the G21G4's and hope they don't get rid of them. But as you said- The PSP brass is pissed!!!! Time will tell. I haven't heard anymore info. the last few days. Again- This could be a REAL BLACK EYE for Glock. I have been issued and carried Glocks since 1987. I have always been loyal and believed they are the best and most durable duty pistol. But to be honest, I am getting disappointed, very disappointed with GLOCK. I hope Glock makes it right for PSP.

SGT45
03-14-2014, 22:26
Not only the cost, but the M&P will be more similar in arms to the GLOCKs they used before.

Jury is still out on the M&P's for us. Local Sheriffs office issues M&P45 here. They swear by them. But NCHP and Atlanta PD experiences have me a little leary. Think I will sit back and watch to see if the M&P evolves into to anything close to what the Glock was.

Tiro Fijo
03-15-2014, 03:01
...Think I will sit back and watch to see if the M&P evolves into to anything close to what the Glock was.





Few remember that the M&P has been out for NINE years. It has had a lot of "birthing" pains with "sear bounce", broken triggers, gritty triggers, wretched 9mm barrels, etc. At times it appeared as if S&W really didn't care. Then there was the classic, if not very embarrassing, photo of the S&W employee checking out the APEX Table at SHOT Show a few years back. :whistling:

I love the M&P ergos, however I always had the feeling that they never really wrung out the design in R&D testing. It was almost as if the men who designed it were primarily revolver guys and did it as a side project. That is however just my 2 cents.

I am interested in why some of the Gen 4 G21's work fine with duty ammo and not with training ammo as one would believe that a faulty trigger bar would be dysfunctional across the ammo spectrum, not unlike a broken FP tip. Are you sure this is a trigger reset issue? I would love to see the breakdown of who this was occurring with as to be objective, e.g., rookie LEO, male or female, etc. As well, if the Dept. armorers have tendered a plausible theory and if they themselves have tried any of the weapons in question. Need more objective info if possible.


As a note, it could be a slight ammo variance in case rims that fall out of spec. This would be easy to determine by miking the rims, as well as other areas, on the ctgs. not functioning and whether they are from the same ammo lot., i.e., duty ammo in spec & training ammo not.

bcj128
03-15-2014, 10:35
Like I've said, its too bad, since my G21 Gen 4 has been flawless. I may not be too far off the level of rounds of PSP, but not quite there yet. I trust my life to the gun regularly as it's part of my carry rotation (usually it's a G30S). I'll bet money that if PSP asks Glock to fix the problem, they will. It's in their own best interest to do so to preserve their reputation. I still find it funny how people gleefully jump on the Glock bashing bandwagon. It sucks being the top gun maker in the nation.

I'm sorry, but the M&P IMHO is crap. I've shot them, they felt cheap, and the trigger pull needs all kinds of work to get close to a Glock trigger pull. If they have been out for so long, why did it take so long to even recognize the problem, much less fix it. It may have gotten better, but I'm not aware of it.

The P227 is a really nice pistol. However, I have heard that Sig's in .45 break down faster. (I have no actual experience, so it's basically "something I heard from another gun guy...") That being said, Sig's are freakin' expensive. If Sig wants more market share, they need to be more competitively priced, even in the $600-$700 range for LE would help. I just can't afford to put down $1000 on a duty gun that will get used and banged up when my Glock has NEVER failed me. And in the salt water environment I work in, the Glock has never rusted and done well.

Just my 2 cents for the fray. I wish my brothers in PSP all the best, and hope they rectify this quickly. Be safe.

dbarry
03-15-2014, 11:17
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing

You must. You clicked on the post.

AgentM79
03-15-2014, 11:19
Few remember that the M&P has been out for NINE years. It has had a lot of "birthing" pains with "sear bounce", broken triggers, gritty triggers, wretched 9mm barrels, etc. At times it appeared as if S&W really didn't care. Then there was the classic, if not very embarrassing, photo of the S&W employee checking out the APEX Table at SHOT Show a few years back. :whistling:

I love the M&P ergos, however I always had the feeling that they never really wrung out the design in R&D testing. It was almost as if the men who designed it were primarily revolver guys and did it as a side project. That is however just my 2 cents.

I am interested in why some of the Gen 4 G21's work fine with duty ammo and not with training ammo as one would believe that a faulty trigger bar would be dysfunctional across the ammo spectrum, not unlike a broken FP tip. Are you sure this is a trigger reset issue? I would love to see the breakdown of who this was occurring with as to be objective, e.g., rookie LEO, male or female, etc. As well, if the Dept. armorers have tendered a plausible theory and if they themselves have tried any of the weapons in question. Need more objective info if possible.


As a note, it could be a slight ammo variance in case rims that fall out of spec. This would be easy to determine by miking the rims, as well as other areas, on the ctgs. not functioning and whether they are from the same ammo lot., i.e., duty ammo in spec & training ammo not.

I am kinda wondering about the ammo myself. Glock has put a lot of work into the Gen4, and the LE market has been an unforgiving test environment. Think about it - Glock has re-designed the guide rings on the Gen4 slides, revised the Gen4 RSAs, and even made adjustments to the trigger connectors (the "dot" connector). They even added "beavertail" backstraps this year. I REALLY want to see Glock succeed with it's Gen4 line, because the "safe action" pattern absolutely did need a certain degree of updating to stay competitive.

I absolutely concur with the thought that many discount the fact that the S&W M&P semi-auto has been out for nine years now. It's a mature design in that regard, and continues to evolve. From an armorer's standpoint, though, it's little-less complicated than it's metal-framed predecessors, and still has design features in-common with them. If you want/need a manual safety or mag disconnect, THAT is your gun right now. If you DON'T need those features, Glock is a better choice. Sig Sauer makes a great weapon in the new P227, and it's a big improvement just in terms of not having 10 parts constituting the grip anymore (2 panels, four screws, and four washers). That's my #1 complaint about my P220. Also my ONLY complaint about my P220. Problem is, Sig Sauer pistols are expensive.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Not for nothin', I'm glad we (my agency!) bought Gen3's when we did. Our's are well-behaved. But, that's in 9mm, and going back to 2007.

dbarry
03-15-2014, 11:21
The GAP is a failed round, face it.

It still goes bang in my G37... :O)

I've got several calibers (38 S&W, 38 special, 357 mag, 44 mag) that aren't being carried by any LE agencies that I know of. Wouldn't call any of them failed... ??

Gap hate... Dunno. haters gonna hate

fastbolt
03-15-2014, 11:41
I am kinda wondering about the ammo myself. Glock has put a lot of work into the Gen4, and the LE market has been an unforgiving test environment. Think about it - Glock has re-designed the guide rings on the Gen4 slides, revised the Gen4 RSAs, and even made adjustments to the trigger connectors (the "dot" connector). They even added "beavertail" backstraps this year. ...

Yeah, from what we were told in my recert, the subtle change of the trigger mech housing for the gen4's resulted in a heavier trigger pull (up to 7 lbs) with the standard connector due to the slight change in angle of how the connector was positioned in the narrower (front-to-back) housing.

The new gen4 connector was changed to -6 degrees at the top to return the nominal trigger pull weight to 5 1/2 - 6 lbs.

Personally, I'd like to see the guide ring thickened and the rear of the frame rails beefed up (more metal below the rail cut) to make the slides less susceptible to damage if a slide is unintentionally dropped onto a hard surface at a cleaning table.

Also, some ammo spec variance being involved in any reported feeding/extraction/ejection problem should always be considered. I remember several years ago when another gun company was getting some reports from LE agencies about misc stoppages and malfunctions.

Testing of the guns with an assortment of common duty ammo at the factory couldn't duplicate the problems. Finally, the factory asked one of the agencies to send them some cases of ammo that they were using. Naturally, that budget line of duty ammo wasn't currently among the ammo in-stock at the gun company.

Testing of that ammo provided revealed 2 issues that the engineers reportedly felt might be responsible for the "problems".

First, the observed velocities varied quite a bit, with some rounds producing velocities in the 700 fps range (instead of the high 900's, as listed in the specs).

Secondly, the budget cases apparently used for that ammo line exhibited some dimensional variance in the case rim thickness that was described as being on the generous end of normal specs.

Combined together, the occasional thicker case rims and the reduced power levels of some of the rounds probably weren't exactly "ideal" for optimal feeding & functioning.

AgentM79
03-15-2014, 12:28
Yeah, from what we were told in my recert, the subtle change of the trigger mech housing for the gen4's resulted in a heavier trigger pull (up to 7 lbs) with the standard connector due to the slight change in angle of how the connector was positioned in the narrower (front-to-back) housing.

The new gen4 connector was changed to -6 degrees at the top to return the nominal trigger pull weight to 5 1/2 - 6 lbs.

Personally, I'd like to see the guide ring thickened and the rear of the frame rails beefed up (more metal below the rail cut) to make the slides less susceptible to damage if a slide is unintentionally dropped onto a hard surface at a cleaning table.

Also, some ammo spec variance being involved in any reported feeding/extraction/ejection problem should always be considered. I remember several years ago when another gun company was getting some reports from LE agencies about misc stoppages and malfunctions.

Testing of the guns with an assortment of common duty ammo at the factory couldn't duplicate the problems. Finally, the factory asked one of the agencies to send them some cases of ammo that they were using. Naturally, that budget line of duty ammo wasn't currently among the ammo in-stock at the gun company.

Testing of that ammo provided revealed 2 issues that the engineers reportedly felt might be responsible for the "problems".


It WOULD be nice if Glock could somehow "up-armor" the slide design to resist drop-destruction. We named that phenomenon after the first guy in our Departnment who did it. Last name + "ing" the gun! Problem is, I don't think the slides would be compatible with existing frames. If the rail cuts are thicker, the frame rails would have to be taller to fit.

If duty ammo works but practice ammo doesn't, I say the practice ammo is the culprit. There are SIGNIFICANT QC differences between the two, even from the same manufacturer (everyone here knows that). I'm my particular case, though, I never found ACP Glock pistols to be as reliable as 9mm. G21 or G30 - doesn't make a difference. Two or three "malfs" over @250 rounds. Assorted quality ammo (no animal pictures on the boxes), practice and duty. I hope PSP works it out for their guys. Perhaps GAP wasn't so bad after all.............

fastbolt
03-15-2014, 13:03
It WOULD be nice if Glock could somehow "up-armor" the slide design to resist drop-destruction.
... Problem is, I don't think the slides would be compatible with existing frames. If the rail cuts are thicker, the frame rails would have to be taller to fit.


Yeah, changing at this late date, to try and make the slides less susceptible to damage if dropped when off the frame, doesn't seem to be something in the cards.

I found it interesting that this was one things S&W did when designing their M&P slides after they did some market studies.


If duty ammo works but practice ammo doesn't, I say the practice ammo is the culprit. There are SIGNIFICANT QC differences between the two, even from the same manufacturer (everyone here knows that). I'm my particular case, though, I never found ACP Glock pistols to be as reliable as 9mm. G21 or G30 - doesn't make a difference. Two or three "malfs" over @250 rounds.

Yep, I sometimes have to just chuckle and shake my head when someone on the internet offers their opinion that a modern combat pistol ought to feed, fire & function with every brand/type of ammo made in that caliber.

Ammo variability is just too large of a potential factor to ignore. Not a mystery that the big gun companies who put on armorer classes usually tell their LE armorers that if one type of ammo doesn't offer the desired functioning in your guns, try something else.

Now, if you're stuck with something on a long contract, then it's time to consider doing some random inspection & testing to make sure the ammo received actually meets the stated specs in the bid, right? ;)

Tiro Fijo
03-15-2014, 14:32
...Yep, I sometimes have to just chuckle and shake my head when someone on the internet offers their opinion that a modern combat pistol ought to feed, fire & function with every brand/type of ammo made in that caliber...





You mean to tell me your vehicle doesn't run on coal, wood, kerosene, white gas and fission? :supergrin:

BuckyP
03-15-2014, 14:55
I don't know, but I feel better when a gun will run with known quality ammunition within spec. :dunno: On of the reasons I never warmed up to my Kahrs, even though they would run perfectly with certain ammo, they didn't feed some common, well known types of ammo.

One of the things that impressed me with my XDs is it seems to run anything I've put through it, to include LSW and LSWCHPs.

Just out of curiosity, wonder what would happen if they had an older Gen 3 21 to shoot side by side with New guns using the same ammo.

Snaps
03-16-2014, 00:18
I know what PSP got those GAP guns for, gonna be hard to beat that deal. I personally expect them to stick

captcurly
03-16-2014, 13:03
Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing





I do. Who twisted your nads this morning? Maybe your Jockie's are on backwards.

Vicarious Reality
03-16-2014, 20:21
And I don't get the 90degree rotating holster, I'm able to draw and fire from inside of a Crown Vic with a normal Safariland 6360 just fine. Just did it in inservice last month. If my holster was rotated 90 degree it would be harder for me to draw.

A swivel holster is a lot more comfortable to wear in the car because it doesn't jam into the seat and ride up - if you wear a ***5 model Safariland holster with the 1.5 inch drop like I do.

Drawing it in the car with it swiveled forward some would be a lot harder though. Bit of a tradeoff I guess - more comfort and less stress on the back for having that ability to make a faster draw while seated. If I had a choice, I would go for the comfort I think, honestly.

PattonT
03-17-2014, 06:54
I know what PSP got those GAP guns for, gonna be hard to beat that deal. I personally expect them to stick
They already have the G21 and so far it has not worked out too well, I believe they upgraded this time for almost nothing.

medicfire104
03-18-2014, 03:16
Can any of the issues be related to the light mounted on the firearms?

SGT45
03-18-2014, 19:59
Can any of the issues be related to the light mounted on the firearms?

I wondered the same thing and didn't get an answer. Last I heard it was still out of spec trigger bar.

Henny
03-19-2014, 09:08
I wondered the same thing and didn't get an answer. Last I heard it was still out of spec trigger bar.

Yes, after they replaced the trigger bars, there were still some pistols that would malfunction.

I'm wondering if the rear frame rails were set too deep in the frame?

eyedoctor
03-19-2014, 09:52
No matter which company you go with, with over 4,000 plus troopers your going to have a few that are Lemons. This is typical for ANY mass production piece of equipment. With proper training like the military dose that fire 1,000 and 1,000 rounds these issues would be fixed while at the range. I also personally think the issue is with the limp wrist non-shooters out there that's not letting the slide function properly.

fastbolt
03-19-2014, 12:55
Bear in mind that Glock has revised the G21/30 trigger bars a few times over the years. It wouldn't surprise me if they had to try a couple different trigger bars (vertical extension heights) in order to get the clearance needed for the safety plunger not to interfere with the FP.

I have no knowledge of what's happening in this particular instance, of course, but sometimes a production run of guns and/or parts may require some extra attention. Not exactly rare, regardless of who makes the gun. ;)

gatorboy
03-19-2014, 13:11
A G31 .357 sig only has 2 more rounds than a G21 .45acp 15 vs 13. It does have 5 more than a gap, but you're combining both .45 guns in your argument. And I don't get the 90degree rotating holster, I'm able to draw and fire from inside of a Crown Vic with a normal Safariland 6360 just fine. Just did it in inservice last month. If my holster was rotated 90 degree it would be harder for me to draw.

Only if they were issued 5 1/3" barreled pistols like the 35. Just so you could swing it out of the way a bit entering and exiting the vehicle. That's what I suggested would be a good combo for Troopers with 357sig. Something that penetrates vehicles just makes sense to me for state troopers and highway patrol officers. Rotated forward it's easy to draw also.

stricky
03-19-2014, 13:44
I hope they switch. I got a nice Barretta from my buddy when that went away. Now I can look forward to getting a GAP cheap.

Deye76
03-19-2014, 13:50
Do some of you realize this thread is almost 1.5 years old? :whistling: GAP is not going anywhere, like this thread. I've been hearing of it's demise.........for over 10 years. :rofl:

Henny
03-19-2014, 16:18
Do some of you realize this thread is almost 1.5 years old? :whistling: GAP is not going anywhere, like this thread. I've been hearing of it's demise.........for over 10 years. :rofl:

PSP did the switch over from the 37 to the 21 last summer. :rofl:

Henny
03-19-2014, 16:19
I hope they switch. I got a nice Barretta from my buddy when that went away. Now I can look forward to getting a GAP cheap.

Again, they switched last year.

Deye76
03-19-2014, 18:14
PSP did the switch over from the 37 to the 21 last summer. :rofl:


the round still isn't going to become extinct.
When the Gen4 GAP comes out, they might go back. You never know.

jakebrake
03-19-2014, 18:18
I do.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

as do I...where was the checkpoint?

BuckyP
03-19-2014, 18:24
I hope they switch. I got a nice Barretta from my buddy when that went away. Now I can look forward to getting a GAP cheap.

I wouldn't mind getting a PSP Beretta 96D, but the few I've seen for sale were a bit spendy.

Henny
03-19-2014, 19:40
the round still isn't going to become extinct.
When the Gen4 GAP comes out, they might go back. You never know.

I still shoot my 37 on occasion! :cool:

"Cold Dead Hands" !
03-19-2014, 21:29
As a retired member of the PSP, I too am interested in this. Without going into a history of PSP firearms, I can only say that they "test" everything they get, from flashlights to handcuffs, although as with any gov't agency, the low bidder usually gets the gravy.
They were getting ready to switch from .357 revolvers to autoloaders just prior to my retirement. As a firearm instructor, I was asked for my input. Knowing they would never go for a SA auto and knowing they would want at least a DA first round, I suggested they strongly consider the SIG. Like anything else I pushed for, they went with a Beretta instead in .40 S&W. I didn't consider a Glock as they had already declared them as not authorized even for off duty carry due to their "lack of a safety". (Strangely enough, they were issued to the SERT team).

I had the opportunity to fire the issue Beretta after I retired when my replacement instructor called me and asked if I'd meet him at the range. He brought his duty gun, along with issue ammo. I'd never seen such a piece of crap. The trigger was absolutely abominable. So hard to pull that neither of us (both decent shots BTW) could hardly get decent hits at 25 yards. He'd wanted to adjust his sights and was told no, they'd "been adjusted before issue". WTF????? Apparently someone came to their senses eventually, and the Glocks were issued.

As for providing ammo, unless they've changed (and I seriously doubt it), they may be issuing one box. No further ammo is issued for practice. Practice ammo comes out of the trooper's pocket....if they practice at all. During my 25 years, most didn't.

LOL !
You've got to be kidding.
Only one 50 round box of ammo and no practice ammo or practice required.
What if you got into a extended fire fight with multiple assailants.
Damn.
Guess they don't want to pay for your retirement plan ?

Their was a Cop's traffic stop story recently posted here.
He pulled over a guy.
A 5-10 min. firefight took place.
The Cop shot almost all his ammo.
21 confirmed hits with .45acp before the bad guy stopped firing.
The last two in his face.
Cop had 5 rounds left.
Cop immediately switched to 9mm.
More rounds the better.
As shot placement, and more rounds is critical.



If I was a Cop, I'd be doing IDPA competition shooting to hone my skills.

AgentM79
03-22-2014, 15:41
the round still isn't going to become extinct.
When the Gen4 GAP comes out, they might go back. You never know.

Gen4 G37's have been available for over a year now, and the design is de-bugged (the early Gen4 guide ring issue has been rectified with a slide re-design). G38 and G39 are still Gen3 weapons, but the G39 already uses what will also be the Gen4's RSA. At least according to the most recent revision of the Armorer manual.

With tritium sights and 200gr. ammo, you couldn't ask for anything better in a full-size service handgun than the G37Gen4. It was already a great gun in Gen3. Like I said previously, I hope PSP gets it straightened out. This may be a bellwether for future use of .45 caliber Glock pistols by LE agencies.

Pete K
03-26-2014, 15:38
PSP did the switch over from the 37 to the 21 last summer. :rofl:
It was an ongoing swap. The one I purchased left the officers hip in mid December 2013, and it was in my hands 3 days later. Never shot a 45 GAP until I owned this one.