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Rich22
11-14-2012, 14:13
So the wife and I the other day were at the gun club and a guy shooting a couple tables over had a AR in .223 and we got to talking and he asked if we wanted to shoot it. Seeing as how I have 0 rifle experience I said hell yes walked on over and threw 5 shots downrange and the wife did the same. Needless to say now it is time to get into the long guns.

Being as how as I said I have no experience I am looking for advice on generally everything from basic rifle to parts to optics. In addition to the .223, 300 Blackout is also a consideration, .308 would be drastic overkill. We will shoot at relatively short ranges, 100% under 300m, 80% under 100m so that needs to also be factored into the equation along with the fact I have horrible vision so will likely need more magnification than normal for a given range. Looking at everything out the door for 1500 or less since I plan on buying enough components to send the UPS man out on workmans comp. This rifle will likely be the only one for the foreseeable future and will be shot very regularly, approx, 1 range trip a week of 100-150 rounds and that is assuming I don't want to do competition with it so it does need to last. I do not have a problem building the rifle if that is what it takes to get the job done. If there is another type of rifle that would work better than an AR please let me know. Lastly, the wife will also be shooting this, she is strong but only about 5'2 so anything huge will just not work.

On my basic research I have looked at some things that I am really leaning towards now

Vertical foregrip, tried one and was much easier

BUIS, not sure of the type but possibly the 45 angle offset that I have read about

Muzzle Break

On the .223 a 16 in barrel if going with the 300 Blackout then I will have to look up and see how much the velocity differences are between barrel lengths at the ranges I will likely shoot.



Any ideas and info on parts and sources would be greatly helpful, only so many decisions can be made but just googling.

Thanks

Rich

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 17:19
Rich,

Go w/ 5.56/.223. I ran 300 BLK for a while but ammunition is quite a bit more expensive and not as readily available. Plus it's made for shorter ranges. The system/round was originally designed to be shot out of a SBR at CQB ranges.

$1500 will get you a lot of rifle. If your budget is $1500 I would look to spend the majority of it on the AR itself. I would not recommend spending $600 on a rifle and the remaining $900 on UTG/Macko junk. I would shoot the rifle as is and figure out what you want to mount on it as you figure out what works best for you. If not the chances are you'll end up wasting money that could have been spent on ammunition and other necessities. Avoid the initial buying spree.

Look at quality, value packed options such as BCM, Daniel Defense, and Colt. These companies produce a consistantly reliable AR. You can have the piece of mind that comes w/ purchasing quality.

Look into the light barrel profile as well.

BUIS, Troy or Magpul. Why 45deg?

A good 16" barrel will cover most bases.

Sources: www.dsgarms.com (http://www.dsgarms.com), www.aimsurplus.com (http://www.aimsurplus.com), www.skdtac.com (http://www.skdtac.com), www.sgammo.com (http://www.sgammo.com), www.bravocompanyusa.com (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com), www.rainierarms.com (http://www.rainierarms.com), www.weaponoutfitters.com (http://www.weaponoutfitters.com),

WayaX
11-14-2012, 17:33
....
Being as how as I said I have no experience I am looking for advice on generally everything from basic rifle to parts to optics. In addition to the .223, 300 Blackout is also a consideration, .308 would be drastic overkill.

Don't get an AR in .223 Rem, get one in 5.56 NATO. .300BLK is nice, but due to price and availability, your first rifle should probably be in 5.56. You can add a .300BLK upper later if you choose.


We will shoot at relatively short ranges, 100% under 300m, 80% under 100m so that needs to also be factored into the equation along with the fact I have horrible vision so will likely need more magnification than normal for a given range. Most people shoot within these ranges. Since this would be your first rifle, you'll probably want to start at 25m.

Looking at everything out the door for 1500 or less since I plan on buying enough components to send the UPS man out on workmans comp. This rifle will likely be the only one for the foreseeable future and will be shot very regularly, approx, 1 range trip a week of 100-150 rounds and that is assuming I don't want to do competition with it so it does need to last. I do not have a problem building the rifle if that is what it takes to get the job done. If there is another type of rifle that would work better than an AR please let me know. Lastly, the wife will also be shooting this, she is strong but only about 5'2 so anything huge will just not work. $1500 should give you enough for a quality, base rifle, mags, and some ammo. The two ways I would do it would be a Colt 6920 + mags and ammo, or a S&W M&P + optic, sling, mags, and ammo. If this will just be a range item, then the second option is probably the best (for anything else, the first option wins by a mile).

On my basic research I have looked at some things that I am really leaning towards now

Vertical foregrip, tried one and was much easier

BUIS, not sure of the type but possibly the 45 angle offset that I have read about

Muzzle Break

On the .223 a 16 in barrel if going with the 300 Blackout then I will have to look up and see how much the velocity differences are between barrel lengths at the ranges I will likely shoot.


Skip the goodies until you learn how to shoot the basic rifle. Start with a quality rifle, and magazines. Get proficient with that and add then add what you need. Chances are, once you realize that you don't need a bunch of crap hanging off your gun to use it properly, you won't want to buy those things anymore.

I would not be worrying about velocities and barrel lengths. Paper doesn't know velocity. A 16" barrel is capable of doing just about anything you would want to do with the rifle. Again, I advice not to go with the .300BLK for a first rifle.

Travclem
11-14-2012, 18:05
What they said^

Quality AR (Colt, LMT, DD, BCM, etc.)
a few Magpul Pmags
a lot of ammo
Figure the rest out as you go

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 18:19
Rich,

Go w/ 5.56/.223. I ran 300 BLK for a while but ammunition is quite a bit more expensive and not as readily available. Plus it's made for shorter ranges. The system/round was originally designed to be shot out of a SBR at CQB ranges.


The Low Visibility Carbine (LVC) is a 30 caliber weapon that is as quiet as an MP5-SD, but with 3x the range. It has more penetration and better terminal effects than an MP7. It is effective for CQB but has the ability to engage and eliminate threats to and beyond 300 meters.
He also states the 300BLK's effective range is 440 meters from a 9" barrel.

catalyst686
11-14-2012, 18:51
I agree 100% with this

What they said^

Quality AR (Colt, LMT, DD, BCM, etc.)
a few Magpul Pmags
a lot of ammo
Figure the rest out as you go

J_P
11-14-2012, 19:05
Rich,

Go w/ 5.56/.223. I ran 300 BLK for a while but ammunition is quite a bit more expensive and not as readily available. Plus it's made for shorter ranges. The system/round was originally designed to be shot out of a SBR at CQB ranges.

$1500 will get you a lot of rifle. If your budget is $1500 I would look to spend the majority of it on the AR itself. I would not recommend spending $600 on a rifle and the remaining $900 on UTG/Macko junk. I would shoot the rifle as is and figure out what you want to mount on it as you figure out what works best for you. If not the chances are you'll end up wasting money that could have been spent on ammunition and other necessities. Avoid the initial buying spree.

Look at quality, value packed options such as BCM, Daniel Defense, and Colt. These companies produce a consistantly reliable AR. You can have the piece of mind that comes w/ purchasing quality.

Look into the light barrel profile as well.

BUIS, Troy or Magpul. Why 45deg?

A good 16" barrel will cover most bases.

Sources: www.dsgarms.com (http://www.dsgarms.com), www.aimsurplus.com (http://www.aimsurplus.com), www.skdtac.com (http://www.skdtac.com), www.sgammo.com (http://www.sgammo.com), www.bravocompanyusa.com (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com), www.rainierarms.com (http://www.rainierarms.com), www.weaponoutfitters.com (http://www.weaponoutfitters.com),

All great websites, would like to add

www.palmettostatearmory.com
www.joeboboutfitters.com


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Cole125
11-14-2012, 19:14
$1500 budget? Get a Daniel Defense V7 and be done with it.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7.html

That or a Colt 6920. Get 5.56, much cheaper to shoot. 300 blk is pointless unless your running a can.

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 19:35
He also states the 300BLK's effective range is 440 meters from a 9" barrel.

We've PM'd a couple times but the conversation never went there. My intent was 200 and in. I just never thought the trajectory would lend itself to shots out that far.

Is there some information covering this?

ratf51
11-14-2012, 19:45
I'll chime in, too. Though I'm not as experienced as others that have responded I'll share what has worked for me, especially since you remarked about optics and your vision. I agree that a 16" barrel will do what you want to do. The gun will be lighter than a 20" (now that I have both I can say that there is a significant difference) and with the considerations of your wife then it'll be more usable by her. Plenty of other responders will have brand recommendations but I do believe that you can get a good AR for under $1000. Optics-- there are those that will say do irons first and add optics later, others will say go ahead with the optics. You know your eyesight-- if a scope works better for you, go for it. I did not initially put any optics on my AR. Then I put an Eotech on it, liked it, but my astigmatism (even though it is sorta corrected by my glasses) made it a bit funky. I had/have scopes on other rifles (deer rifle, .22s) so I knew that things worked better for me when scoped. I put a scope on my recent build and will never look back. I do have irons for it, just in case. You will see pictures on this forum and others of 16" ARs (carbine or midlength) with scopes ranging from 1-4x all the way up to 4-12x and higher. Again, find what works for you and makes you happy. You'll shoot more if you do. Also, stick with a rifle chambered for 5.56, that way you don't have to concern yourself with ammo that will fit but you shouldn't run. At a $1500 budget you can come away with a really good AR and scope set-up that you'll be happy with for a long time. Shoot and Enjoy! (...to paraphrase Douglas Adams...)

Rick305
11-14-2012, 20:17
I would definitely recommend the new Mossberg MMR AR-15 as a first ... amazing weapon from a trusted name.

LA_357SIG
11-14-2012, 20:19
We've PM'd a couple times but the conversation never went there. My intent was 200 and in. I just never thought the trajectory would lend itself to shots out that far.

Is there some information covering this?

http://300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

ksmedman
11-14-2012, 20:28
$1500 budget? Get a Daniel Defense V7 and be done with it.
...
That or a Colt 6920. Get 5.56, much cheaper to shoot. 300 blk is pointless unless your running a can.

This is good advice.
I have both 5.56 adn 300BLK AR's. 5.56 is a good first rifle, esp if you're not reloading.
Personally, with your budget, I'd look for a Colt 6920, can't go wrong with that.

BTW, 300BLK will reach out there, Travis Haley has a great video on it FYI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgKjbySsAik&feature=youtu.be

mjkeat
11-14-2012, 20:42
http://300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

Cool, thank you for that.

K. Foster
11-14-2012, 21:04
Rich,

Go w/ 5.56/.223. I ran 300 BLK for a while but ammunition is quite a bit more expensive and not as readily available. Plus it's made for shorter ranges. The system/round was originally designed to be shot out of a SBR at CQB ranges.

$1500 will get you a lot of rifle. If your budget is $1500 I would look to spend the majority of it on the AR itself. I would not recommend spending $600 on a rifle and the remaining $900 on UTG/Macko junk. I would shoot the rifle as is and figure out what you want to mount on it as you figure out what works best for you. If not the chances are you'll end up wasting money that could have been spent on ammunition and other necessities. Avoid the initial buying spree.

Look at quality, value packed options such as BCM, Daniel Defense, and Colt. These companies produce a consistantly reliable AR. You can have the piece of mind that comes w/ purchasing quality.

Look into the light barrel profile as well.

BUIS, Troy or Magpul. Why 45deg?

A good 16" barrel will cover most bases.


Above is great advice.
Get a quality 16" flat top with a 5.56 chamber. Nothing wrong with buying a Colt at Wal mart. Learn to shoot your iron sights before investing in optics. Buy lots of mags. Have fun.

John Biltz
11-15-2012, 03:54
I bought an AR a few years ago chambered in 6.5 Grendel, quality gun and I love it but its expensive to shoot, so I don't. With optic and magazines I've got around $2500 in it and I never shoot it. I recently bought a Palmetto State Armory AR in 5.56. Caught it on sale out the door with optic for $1,000. Its shot everything I've fed it from Tula to TAP. Its not necessarily what I would want if I earned my living kicking in doors but I'd want some new knees for that anyway. For a range gun, home defense rifle and a first rifle I think it would be hard to beat. Use the $500 extra for a case of ammo and a few magazines. Between now and Christmas I'd expect the sale to be back. Don't get me wrong I'd love a Larue or Daniel Defense but you don't need that to put holes in paper at the range.

Matthew Courtney
11-15-2012, 06:52
He also states the 300BLK's effective range is 440 meters from a 9" barrel.

Company reps are not always the best source of information about there products. While the 300 BLK can be shot from 300-440 meters, one musy shoot supersonic ammo, which defeats the primary purpose of the round, and do math regularly which few enjoy.

A 5.56 allows a maximum point blank range of 300 yards. With m193 zeroed at 40 yards bullet trajectory stays within 3.5 inches of line of sight out past 300 yards. Plus, 5.56 ammo is cheaper and has lower recoil.

Matthew Courtney
11-15-2012, 07:01
OP, generally when one has $1500 to spend, and needs an optic, I suggest spending 1/3 on the opric and 2/3 on the gun. Magnification alone is not always the fix for vision issues, and a $500 scope that does not do what you need it to do is a poor way to expand your hobby. Would you share more about your vision? Nearsighted? Astigmatism? Farsighted? Corrected with glasses or contacts? Eyes slow to focus? Cloudy vision? Floaters? Glaucoma? Diabetic vision issues?

M&P15T
11-15-2012, 07:24
OP:

As you can see above, there's many different thoughts on how to get into ARs, so I'll throw in my $.02

First, if your budget is $1500.00, I would first start by going through the stickied picture thread at the top of this forum, to see what sort of set-up appeals to you. Quad rail?
Pistol grip type?
BUISs? A carry handle?
M16 rifle or M4 carbine?
Optic?
AFG/VFG?

There are so damn many different configurations, you'll need to figure out what you want.

I myself would probably blow your entire budget on the base AR, getting something from Daniel Defense or BCM with a quad-rail and VFG (I like the DDM4-V4 myself)....plus some mags and ammo. Then over time I'd look at an Eotech or Aimpoint optic, or perhaps something magnified. Be aware, optics can be very, very expensive.

Rich22
11-15-2012, 08:43
First off I really do appreciate all the info, highly informative for a newbie like me, will go further into detail on some of my thoughts here momentarily.

Rich,

Go w/ 5.56/.223. I ran 300 BLK for a while but ammunition is quite a bit more expensive and not as readily available. Plus it's made for shorter ranges. The system/round was originally designed to be shot out of a SBR at CQB ranges.

$1500 will get you a lot of rifle. If your budget is $1500 I would look to spend the majority of it on the AR itself. I would not recommend spending $600 on a rifle and the remaining $900 on UTG/Macko junk. I would shoot the rifle as is and figure out what you want to mount on it as you figure out what works best for you. If not the chances are you'll end up wasting money that could have been spent on ammunition and other necessities. Avoid the initial buying spree.

Look at quality, value packed options such as BCM, Daniel Defense, and Colt. These companies produce a consistantly reliable AR. You can have the piece of mind that comes w/ purchasing quality.


,

The ammo cost or at least the difference between 300 Blk and 5.56 would be minimal as I do reload and will soon be casting also and it helps that I have a borderline unending supply of free .223 brass which of course can be converted to 300 Blk.

I do want a quality rifle and quality optic so the 1500 is not written in stone, if it takes 1750 for instance to get the job done so I do not have to buy something again in the future and waste the initial purchase then the money is there to do so and since this is my first new gun in 4 years and shooting is pretty much my only hobby the purchase is certainly justifiable especially since the wife is onboard.


Most people shoot within these ranges. Since this would be your first rifle, you'll probably want to start at 25m. No doubt going to take me several hundred just to get used to the feel.

I'll chime in, too. Though I'm not as experienced as others that have responded I'll share what has worked for me, especially since you remarked about optics and your vision. I agree that a 16" barrel will do what you want to do. The gun will be lighter than a 20" (now that I have both I can say that there is a significant difference) and with the considerations of your wife then it'll be more usable by her. Plenty of other responders will have brand recommendations but I do believe that you can get a good AR for under $1000. Optics-- there are those that will say do irons first and add optics later, others will say go ahead with the optics. You know your eyesight-- if a scope works better for you, go for it. I did not initially put any optics on my AR. Then I put an Eotech on it, liked it, but my astigmatism (even though it is sorta corrected by my glasses) made it a bit funky. I had/have scopes on other rifles (deer rifle, .22s) so I knew that things worked better for me when scoped. I put a scope on my recent build and will never look back. I do have irons for it, just in case.!

Some type of optic will work much better, guy who let me shoot his AR had an Eotech on it and I was hitting a small target 25m away on shot 2.


OP, generally when one has $1500 to spend, and needs an optic, I suggest spending 1/3 on the opric and 2/3 on the gun. Magnification alone is not always the fix for vision issues, and a $500 scope that does not do what you need it to do is a poor way to expand your hobby. Would you share more about your vision? Nearsighted? Astigmatism? Farsighted? Corrected with glasses or contacts? Eyes slow to focus? Cloudy vision? Floaters? Glaucoma? Diabetic vision issues?

Nasty astigmatism is the big issue along with severe light sensitivity, partially corrected by glasses. Very cloudy vision and unable to focus well, shooting irons on my Glock, I can hit a target no problem but as to exactly where I am aiming is essentially a blur along with the sights so I can hit a 8in target no problem but hitting a smaller one is essentially guesswork. It is to the point I am seriously considering putting an RMR on my G19 if I can find one to try out first.



As you can see above, there's many different thoughts on how to get into ARs, so I'll throw in my $.02

First, if your budget is $1500.00, I would first start by going through the stickied picture thread at the top of this forum, to see what sort of set-up appeals to you. Quad rail?
Pistol grip type?
BUISs? A carry handle?
M16 rifle or M4 carbine?
Optic?
AFG/VFG?

There are so damn many different configurations, you'll need to figure out what you want.

I myself would probably blow your entire budget on the base AR, getting something from Daniel Defense or BCM with a quad-rail and VFG (I like the DDM4-V4 myself)....plus some mags and ammo. Then over time I'd look at an Eotech or Aimpoint optic, or perhaps something magnified. Be aware, optics can be very, very expensive.

Very good idea, I will check out that thread later and post back. I hear you on the expensive optics just looking through some sites I am amazed how much they are, thats why I set a budget for the whole weapon system as opposed to individual parts of it. Thankfully I got a decent amount of Pmags on the last sale from Primary Arms so I should be good to go in that respect for some time.


Again I appreciate the time everyone took to read and respond to this and look forward to more ideas.

Rich

Travclem
11-15-2012, 09:46
First off I really do appreciate all the info, highly informative for a newbie like me, will go further into detail on some of my thoughts here momentarily.



The ammo cost or at least the difference between 300 Blk and 5.56 would be minimal as I do reload and will soon be casting also and it helps that I have a borderline unending supply of free .223 brass which of course can be converted to 300 Blk.


Rich

Are you planning on trying to shoot cast boolits in an AR?

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 09:59
Do not base your decision on what looks cool in a picture thread.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

bmoore
11-15-2012, 10:03
Do not base your decision on what looks cool in a picture thread.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I was literally just getting ready to type that. Shoot a bunch first, you will find out what you want/need. I am guilty of doing that as a noob, quad rail, vert grip, light with a pressure switch, junk opitc................lol.

Now I have an MOE handguard with an impact weapons light mount. Its what works for me.

M&P15T
11-15-2012, 11:14
Do not base your decision on what looks cool in a picture thread.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I was literally just getting ready to type that. Shoot a bunch first, you will find out what you want/need. I am guilty of doing that as a noob, quad rail, vert grip, light with a pressure switch, junk opitc................lol.

Now I have an MOE handguard with an impact weapons light mount. Its what works for me.

How does one covet? By seeing things with your own eyes. The OP has to start somewhere in getting a feel for what is out there. If a complete noob looks through those pictures, they can see all of the different manufacturers, models, accessories, configurations, optics, etc., etc.

THEN, they can ask some questions here in a thread, clarifying what they're looking at. There's no way to make a purchase decision without looking at what is out there, to have some ideas on what you're interested in.

Have at it OP, look through all those pictures. Find what appeals to you, then ask some clarifying questions here in your thread. We're here to answer whatever questions you have. And, take some time to really consider exactly how you are going to use your new AR.

Gunnut 45/454
11-15-2012, 11:41
Travclem
Well hell I shoot cast all the time in both 5.56mm and 300 Blk Ar's ! Works just fine!

OP I have a 16" unsurpressed 300 Blk and yes it lends itself very well to cast bullet use.
I run subs and supers in cast out of it very nicely. Now finding a complete rifle in the caliber will take some research. If your a reloader-when you go to the range make it a point to start picking up .223/5.56mm brass to convert to 300 Blk- very easy to do many video on youtube show you how. Probably be easier to get a 5.56mm AR now and then get an 300Blk upper later. For the ranges you expect to shoot at the 300 Bk fit perfectly. If you want more info on the 300 Blk feel free to PM me at anytime.:supergrin:

Travclem
11-15-2012, 11:44
Travclem
Well hell I shoot cast all the time in both 5.56mm and 300 Blk Ar's ! Works just fine!


Any reliability issues? I'd think it would be more prone to feeding issues. How about leading the gas port?

arushus
11-15-2012, 12:10
If this is your first AR, do yourself a favor and go with 5.56mm. Plenty of time later to add a 300 blackout upper or rifle. Also, definitely definitely buy a mil-spec gun. These are a few brands I know are at least mil-spec and perform well:Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM, Spike's Tactical (This is what I own), LMT, and Palmetto State makes guns to mil-spec also, but personally I would go with one of the others. At your budget, I would buy a Daniel Defense. Sounds like you should go with a 16" barrel, as others have said, preferably cold-hammer forged, which DD's are. A lot of people recommend Colt 6920's as first AR's. Whatever you do, I cant stress enough to go with one of the brands I mentioned. Im no expert, but I have researched and read a whole lot on who makes good rifles. M4carbine.net is a great site for information, only thing I dont like about that site is if you dont own a DD or BCM they make you out to be a complete moron. I disagree, if you dont buy a rifle that is built to at least mil-spec, then you are a moron. Mil-spec rifles can be had for about the same price range as other lower tier manufacturers such as rock river, olympic, dpms, stag, doublestar, cmmg, etc...A lot of people will say they have one of these brands and theyve never had a problem in 3 gazillion-quintillion rounds, fact is, these brands just are not built to the same quality as Daniel defense, bcm, spike's, colt, or lmt...
As far as optics go, I cant offer a lot of advice, other than to parrot what Ive read from other people, and tell you what I did and am happy with. A lot of guys like the Aimpoint PRO, and Eotech's, either one you can add a magnifier to. Personally, I bought a burris 2-7x35 scope on a Burris PEPR QD mount, and mounted a Burris fast-fire III on top. The mount comes with scope rings that have rail sections on top. I use the scope for 50-60 yards and farther, and up close I transition to the fastfire. I really enjoy this setup, it ran me about $450 total if I remember correctly, but I bought everything separately when I had the money.

Rich22
11-15-2012, 13:06
Are you planning on trying to shoot cast boolits in an AR?

That is in the game plan yep, either .223 or 30 cal bullets in factory jacketed form will be significantly above what I have laid out for the amount of shooting I want to do.

OP I have a 16" unsurpressed 300 Blk and yes it lends itself very well to cast bullet use.
I run subs and supers in cast out of it very nicely. Now finding a complete rifle in the caliber will take some research. If your a reloader-when you go to the range make it a point to start picking up .223/5.56mm brass to convert to 300 Blk- very easy to do many video on youtube show you how. Probably be easier to get a 5.56mm AR now and then get an 300Blk upper later. For the ranges you expect to shoot at the 300 Bk fit perfectly. If you want more info on the 300 Blk feel free to PM me at anytime

Much appreciated, I probably have between 2000 and 3000 cases downstairs currently and can pick up several hundred more a month so I am likely good for the near future at least.

Do not base your decision on what looks cool in a picture thread.

Believe me I do not care one bit how cool something looks when it comes to guns, performance is all that matters. Looks on women and cars matter, guns no.

Thanks guys I will check out the picture thread and see what looks interesting.

Rich

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 13:31
Company reps are not always the best source of information about there products. While the 300 BLK can be shot from 300-440 meters, one musy shoot supersonic ammo, which defeats the primary purpose of the round, and do math regularly which few enjoy.

A 5.56 allows a maximum point blank range of 300 yards. With m193 zeroed at 40 yards bullet trajectory stays within 3.5 inches of line of sight out past 300 yards. Plus, 5.56 ammo is cheaper and has lower recoil.

It seems (to me anyway) that supersonic ammo was the primary purpose of this round.

Introducing the Advanced Armament Corp. 300 AAC Blackout (300BLK). This system was developed to launch 30 caliber projectiles from the AR platform without a reduction in magazine capacity and compatible with the standard bolt.
Full power 115-125 grain ammunition matches the ballistics of the 7.62x39mm AK, and eclipses 5.56mm with much higher-mass projectiles for a more dramatic effect on the target. Or choose subsonic cartridges for optimal use with a sound suppressor - 220 grain Sierra OTM (open-tip match) bullets vastly outperforms a 9mm MP5-SD in penetration and long range accuracy.

seattlesetters
11-15-2012, 16:01
With your budget, you should have no problem getting a great rifle. Up it just a little bit, and you can have a great rifle/great optic combo right off the bat.

Here's what I did: I went to Bravo Company USA (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bravo-Company-Rifle-Carbine-M4-AR15-M16-s/140.htm) and picked out the rifle that looked closest to what I wanted. In my case, that was the Mid-16 Mod 2 Carbine. I knew that I absolutely could not beat BCM for price to quality ratio.

I knew I wanted a RDS on my rig and I know you can't do better than Aimpoint for price to quality ratio. I ended up with the Micro H-1 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Aimpoint-Micro-H-1-Optic-p/aimpoint%20micro%20h1.htm), but almost went with the Pro (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Aimpoint-PRO-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-p/aimpoint-pro-12841.htm).

I knew I had top-notch quality and terrific bang-for-the-buck. Now I've just been shooting it and figuring out what else I'd like to do with the rifle before I make more upgrades. So far, I've added a new stock, new flash suppressor, new pistol grip and a LaRue 660 mount for the Aimpoint. Next will probably be rail guards and maybe a vertical grip.

Gunnut 45/454
11-15-2012, 16:40
Travclem
Nope run just like they due with store bought ammo. Have to do a little extra cleaning but not much. Course I don't shoot them at the same velocity as jacketed but they are more then capable for training/hunting and SD/HD. Shoot the 5.56mm and 300 Blk out to 200 yards plus no problems!

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 22:01
It seems (to me anyway) that supersonic ammo was the primary purpose of this round.

If you are refering to .300 BLK you would be incorrect. It was designed to give the operator a familiar platform that would outperform common sub guns like the MP5 w/ the use of heavier subsonic rounds. The supersonic features were an added bonus. Check out SilencerTalk and the .300BLK forum. Am I wrong?

LA_357SIG
11-15-2012, 22:08
If you are refering to .300 BLK you would be incorrect. It was designed to give the operator a familiar platform that would outperform common sub guns like the MP5 w/ the use of heavier subsonic rounds. The supersonic features were an added bonus. Check out SilencerTalk and the .300BLK forum. Am I wrong?

Yes. You are wrong. AAC designed the 300BLK to replicate the ballistics of the 7.62x39mm reliably from an AR15. Nothing about 7.62x39mm indicates a foundation based on subsonic use in close quarters. As I said, to me. Now back in the corner.

mjkeat
11-15-2012, 22:13
Yes. You are wrong. AAC designed the 300BLK to replicate the ballistics of the 7.62x39mm reliably from an AR15. Nothing about 7.62x39mm indicates a foundation based on subsonic use in close quarters. As I said, to me. Now back in the corner.

Oh yeah? That's why the first ammunition on the market for the .300 BLK was 220gr subsonics, right? I know if I was releasing something for use with supersonic ammunition I would release supersonic ammuntion first. Makes sense to me, lol.

Travclem
11-16-2012, 06:20
Last time I checked AAC was a silencer company. Didn't they develop the round to be quiet? It is pretty much just a SAAMI spec .300 whisper. The whisper is a wildcat .300/.221 fireball round developed to be quiet and the Blackout is a .300/.223 you can even shoot .300whisper in a .300Blackout chamber. I don't work for them but this is the only thing that makes sense.

LA_357SIG
11-16-2012, 11:50
Last time I checked AAC was a silencer company. Didn't they develop the round to be quiet? It is pretty much just a SAAMI spec .300 whisper. The whisper is a wildcat .300/.221 fireball round developed to be quiet and the Blackout is a .300/.223 you can even shoot .300whisper in a .300Blackout chamber. I don't work for them but this is the only thing that makes sense.

I'll say this and I'm done. AAC developed the 300BLK to shoot super and subsonic ammo from the same barrel with no external adjustments. So it does both. If you can provide hard evidence (an actual response from AAC, not anecdotal suggestion) that the primary reason 300BLK is for subsonic use, then I'm wrong.

K. Foster
11-16-2012, 12:27
Course I don't shoot them at the same velocity as jacketed but they are more then capable for training/hunting and SD/HD.

What velocity do you shoot cast bullets at?

Matthew Courtney
11-16-2012, 12:37
What velocity do you shoot cast bullets at?

I never was able to find a cast bullet load that would cycle an AR reliably without seeing pressure signs or excessive barrel leading. If someone has one, please share....

Gunnut 45/454
11-16-2012, 12:50
K. Foster/Matthew Courtney

I run my 5.56mm cast at 1875 fps- 18.7 gr IMR4895 for full function and zero leading! For no leading -proper sizing and lube. Gas checked of course. In the 300 Blk I run my 150 gr Cast GC at 1995 fps, 170 gr Cast GC at 1875 fps again properly sized and lubed zero leading! Full function.:supergrin:

K. Foster
11-16-2012, 13:20
That’s pretty slow. How much does that load change your point of impact at what ever range you zero?

Rich22
11-16-2012, 14:28
Thatís pretty slow. How much does that load change your point of impact at what ever range you zero?

I would be very interested in this also

So here is what I have come up with so far.

Flat top upper no handle

Full length quad rail- may as well just get it and not have to worry

vertical foregrip- it just feels better and more natural for me

Optics- I am still not sure on the RDS or Holo or scope, for my distances ( most under 100, all under 300) what would be a good idea and my best bet within my budget. Also a magnifier for a RDS I have never seen one, could I get a run down on those from some experienced users.

Now leaning more to 300 Black since 1 Sounds like would be more condusive to cast which is what I will have to shoot 90% of the time to afford as much ammo as I want. 2, Something different and more interesting. 3, I just cannot see a real downside other than ammo costs which are mitigated if I reload.

Since this will be a secondary HD weapon after the tried and true 12ga I do need reliability and ease of use.

Looking at the shortest barrel I can without running afoul of that wonderful gestapo like agency the ATF which is if I am not mistaken 14.5 with permanently attached muzzle brake?

With all this and the budget I have am I doomed to building this myself or does someone out there make what I am looking for?

Thanks for all the help here, I do love GT.

Rich

K. Foster
11-16-2012, 15:04
Also a magnifier for a RDS I have never seen one, could I get a run down on those from some experienced users.

For me, it is not an optimal set up. I donít like how the gun balances and swings with the magnifier flipped to the side. Also, some flip mounts do not lock in the flipped down position, allowing it to bounce around. If you are going to go that way, I recommend the Larue mount (I know, big surprise.). I prefer the twist off mounts but then you have to insure the magnifier is with the gun.
Personally, if I need magnification, I go with a low power variable. Yes, itís more eye relief particular and slightly slower at close range than a red dot but everythingís a trade off. Thatís why my close range carbine has an Aimpoint and my GP gun has a 1.5-6 Weaver Euro.
This is just my opinion, based on what works for me. Some people find a magnifier + RDS very useful.
Based on your eye issues, a low power variable might be a good place to start.

Gunnut 45/454
11-16-2012, 18:40
K. Foster
With my primary trainer (PSA) its about 1" low at 50 yards where as my Dot is about 1" high at 50 yards with M193 and a center hold. So I don't worry about changing anything when I train with these rounds. My other carbine is scoped 1.5" high with M193 at 100 yards a dead on maybe a tad low with cast at 100 yards!:supergrin:

K. Foster
11-16-2012, 21:18
That’s much closer than I would have thought. Thanks.
I’ll be staying with FMJ’s but if it works for you, great!

Gunnut 45/454
11-17-2012, 10:14
K. Foster
The best part is the cost is only $.10 or less a round!! Where as the average cost of FMJ is about $.34-5 now for FMJ.:supergrin: Since I have about 500 # of lead , free cases only thing a pay for is primers ,powder, gaschecks.

K. Foster
11-17-2012, 11:47
Kudoís to you gunnut, rock on.:thumbsup:
Just curious, what type of lead, wheel weights?

Rich22
11-18-2012, 16:03
So I am now significantly leaning towards the 300 blackout for several reasons, something different, will not cost me more to shoot than 5.56, can supress it at some point in the future if I want to, can run subsonics with full function. Here now is my problem. I have looked at LMT, DD, BCM, DSG and nothing is even close to my price range before optic. Looking at http://www.joeboboutfitters.com, they have a Spikes lower and a CMMG upper for 955 but that I am sure does not include everything like the foregrip and the BUIS which would likely only leave me 300 or so to get an optic which I find unlikely to happen.

I am sure I am missing something here as to availability and sources since I just looked at the ones listed in this thread. Please enlighten me slightly more on sources and it looks like I shall be good and then comes the Optics discussion which I am sure will be enlightening to me.

Appreciate the help

Rich

WoodenPlank
11-18-2012, 16:15
So I am now significantly leaning towards the 300 blackout for several reasons, something different, will not cost me more to shoot than 5.56, can supress it at some point in the future if I want to, can run subsonics with full function. Here now is my problem. I have looked at LMT, DD, BCM, DSG and nothing is even close to my price range before optic. Looking at http://www.joeboboutfitters.com, they have a Spikes lower and a CMMG upper for 955 but that I am sure does not include everything like the foregrip and the BUIS which would likely only leave me 300 or so to get an optic which I find unlikely to happen.

I am sure I am missing something here as to availability and sources since I just looked at the ones listed in this thread. Please enlighten me slightly more on sources and it looks like I shall be good and then comes the Optics discussion which I am sure will be enlightening to me.

Appreciate the help

Rich

Last I priced it, .300 ammo was still 10-20% more expensive than 5.56, even with the currently inflated prices on 5.56 ammo. Plus, .300 will probably rise as 5.56 does, since they use nearly identical brass.

Since it is still new to market (and sells at lower volume) finding a .300 upper in the same price range as 5.56 will be highly difficult.

5.56 can still be suppressed. While it's not as quiet as subsonic .300, you can still get a 16" barrel well below hearing safe levels.

Finally, I would avoid CMMG. They have a bit of a hit-and-miss reputation. Two different GT posters here recently had issues with CMMG lowers with out-of-spec mag wells, for example.

LL6
11-18-2012, 16:33
Here's the CMMG thread (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1436251) and fwiw mine works fine. :cool:

Rich22
11-18-2012, 16:40
Here's the CMMG thread (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1436251) and fwiw mine works fine. :cool:

Appreciate it, I will read that later, I have never heard of the company before. Since I do reload and will cast for the rifle, that is why I am saying it really will not be any more expensive. Wish I could find just very very cheap bulk .224's but I just cannot.

WoodenPlank
11-18-2012, 16:42
Appreciate it, I will read that later, I have never heard of the company before. Since I do reload and will cast for the rifle, that is why I am saying it really will not be any more expensive. Wish I could find just very very cheap bulk .224's but I just cannot.

Is 8.3 cents a pill cheap enough for you?

K. Foster
11-18-2012, 21:18
I don’t want to turn this into a CMMG bash but I will also warn you off them. They have had a spotty reputation for quality and CS for some time.
Couple weeks ago, a friend brought me a CMMG upper that wouldn’t extract. The railed gas block had not been installed properly. The barrel wasn’t dimpled and no thread locker had been used. Now, since he bought it used and on a DPMS lower, it may have been a parts gun but it had a CMMG barrel. I have no way of knowing if it came like that from CMMG and I’m not blaming them. But after I got it working, I installed his MBUIS rear sight and sighted it in. I was getting 2 Ĺ to 3 groups at 50 yards and 5" + at 100 yards. Unacceptable.
This is just the latest of several issues I’ve encountered with their stuff. Not all their stuff is bad. I have another friend who has one of their bargain basement carbines and it’s 100% reliable with good accuracy, good trigger, nice gun. Again, I don’t want this to turn into a CMMG bashing thread. To you guys that have had good luck with their stuff, Great! I’m happy for you.

Rich22
11-23-2012, 11:25
Just got off the phone with Primary Arms, gentlemen said they do not have a complete rifle in 300 BLK and only one upper in 300 Whisper and are totally out of lowers. I have a feeling this is going to be tougher than I expected. Off to call PSA for the heck of it.