G30 bullets fail to expand? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Andy W
11-15-2012, 09:57
Does anyone know if common JHP rounds have a significantly higher liklihood of failing to expand when fired out of a G30? I've been considering purchasing a G30 Gen 4 but the main thing holding me back is my concern that JHPs such as the standard Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger-T would have a high liklihood of failing to expand due to the shorter barrel. If I buy a .45, the only rounds I'm interested in using, for both practice and HD/carry are standard pressure 230 grain loads. I really don't want to mess with +p or lighter bullets. So, when using standard pressure 230 grain bullets in a G30, has anyone found a high incidence of JHPs failing to expand, or not expanding well enough?

attrapereves
11-15-2012, 10:32
It shouldn't matter that much. I've seen gel tests that compare a G30 and a 5" 1911. The only difference is that the JHP shot out of a longer barrel expands slightly more.

Here is a guy who tested loads out of a Springfield XDs (even shorter barrel). http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/10/springfield-xds-carry-ammo-testing.html

Looks like the ammo performed well.

Also, tnoutdoors9 tested 230gr GoldDots out of a G30 and a 5" 1911. One test used newspaper in jugs and the other was gel, so that might make slight differences. Anyways... the 1911 bullet expanded slightly more than the G30 bullet.

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr Test with Denim - YouTube

dp2002813
11-15-2012, 10:32
Hi Andy,

The answer I have seen so far is no, though any bullet from any gun can fail at anytime. No problems with expanding from shorter barrel G30. Here is a link to a video.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNSS7tomtw&list=PL47112947DB1DE491&index=15&feature=plpp_video

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr Test with Denim - YouTube

I like the reputations of each load and carry both.

Andy W
11-15-2012, 11:26
Now that you bring them up, I do remember seeing these videos. In fact I subscribe to tnoutdoors9. That makes me feel better although I would like to see more tests. The Gold Dot was the load I was worried about, not so much the Ranger-T or HST. Both of these, according to Mas Ayoob, are designed for optimum expansion in shorter barrels as well as longer ones.

I see a lot of people mention they carry HST or Ranger 230 grain +p in their smaller .45s for added velocity but that just doesn't appeal to me. To me the cost is much more than the benefit. You get significantly more recoil and only a little more expansion.

SCmasterblaster
11-15-2012, 11:39
The bullets expanded just fine in the video.

Andy W
11-15-2012, 11:47
The bullets expanded just fine in the video.

Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?

fredj338
11-15-2012, 11:49
The bbl is not that short. Vel loss in the 45acp isn't as critical as other service rounds, it's designed to expand going slow. I get good expansion from my 1911OM using just about any of the majors JHP. If you are really worried, drop to a 185gr or 200gr XTP JHP for higher impact vel.

Andy W
11-15-2012, 12:05
By the way, I'm gonna go ahead and sort of renege on my claim in my other thread that the .45 is not significantly better than the 9mm. Yes, I still maintain that the 9mm is a perfectly adequate defensive cartridge. However, I think the .45 does offer a substantial advantage in modern loads, namely the Ranger-T and HST. When I wrote my other thread, I was not aware that HSTs and Rangers in .45 were regularly expanding to .90" or greater and still penetrating more than 12." That's almost an inch in diameter. And I think I've seen a test or two where one of these loads actually expanded to just over 1." You have one of those sharp edged mother****ers tearing through you at that size, it's gonna **** your **** up.

cowboy1964
11-15-2012, 12:29
If size is everything there are ways to get .50s in a Glock.

GlockWheeler
11-15-2012, 12:32
I volunteered the use of my Glock 30 during a Winchester sponsored ballistics demonstration about five years ago and the two loads used were the Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P and our current duty load, the Federal 230 grain HST +P. Both of these loads performed very well through all tests when fired from the G30. The HST had better overall expansion, similar penetration and suffered zero core/jacket separation. The Ranger load performed well, but had a couple core/jacket separations. We did not have access to the Gold Dot 230 grain for comparison.

Andy W
11-15-2012, 12:41
I volunteered the use of my Glock 30 during a Winchester sponsored ballistics demonstration about five years ago and the two loads used were the Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P and our current duty load, the Federal 230 grain HST +P. Both of these loads performed very well through all tests when fired from the G30. The HST had better overall expansion, similar penetration and suffered zero core/jacket separation. The Ranger load performed well, but had a couple core/jacket separations. We did not have access to the Gold Dot 230 grain for comparison.

How much more recoil do +p loads have in .45?

GlockWheeler
11-15-2012, 12:53
How much more recoil do +p loads have in .45?

I will not lie, the +P loads do have more felt recoil, regardless of ammo make and manufacturer. I have a Glock 29 as well and there really is no difference in recoil when I compare warm 10mm loads to the +P 45 ACP. The only reason I have the HST+P is because that was what was more readily available when I ordered my carry ammo. I would have no problem using the standard pressure loads with modern bullets, as they are designed to work well at lower velocities. I will likely order standard pressure loads when I purchase new carry ammo for the decreased recoil.

dp2002813
11-15-2012, 13:48
Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth. Important? I'm not qualified to say. I know that head-on, I'm not 12" deep, even with my expanding posterior! well maybe I am right now at the hind end of things. :)

Standard pressure has been getting the job done for years and I personally am comfortable with it. Even better, Mas writes in his book "Conceal Carry" that "standard pressure 230-grain 45 ACP with conventional JHP bullet pretty much duplicates the recoil and trajectory of GI hardball in the same weight, allowing cost-effective training..." Mas Ayoob, Conceal Carry Gun Digest Books 2008

I thought long and hard about short barrels and effectiveness in choosing ammo for .357mag, so I can empathize with ya.

cowboy1964
11-15-2012, 14:10
I've never shot 230+P but have shot a box of Gold Dot 200+P. Very sharp recoil. To the point of stinging my hand (with an M&P 45c). Pass.

SCmasterblaster
11-15-2012, 14:54
that .45 ACP +p recoil is a factor in the micro-Glock .45 ACPs.

Andy W
11-15-2012, 18:45
So a lot more recoil and only marginally better performance?


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SCmasterblaster
11-15-2012, 18:54
So a lot more recoil and only marginally better performance?


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I guess so. The std pressure .45s worked for decades.

Andy W
11-15-2012, 20:18
I guess so. The std pressure .45s worked for decades.

The standard pressure 230 grain load is what gave the .45 its reputation.

Warp
11-15-2012, 21:22
that .45 ACP +p recoil is a factor in the micro-Glock .45 ACPs.

Which .45 ACP Glocks qualify as micro?

fredj338
11-15-2012, 23:16
Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth. Important? I'm not qualified to say. I know that head-on, I'm not 12" deep, even with my expanding posterior! well maybe I am right now at the hind end of things. :)

Standard pressure has been getting the job done for years and I personally am comfortable with it. Even better, Mas writes in his book "Conceal Carry" that "standard pressure 230-grain 45 ACP with conventional JHP bullet pretty much duplicates the recoil and trajectory of GI hardball in the same weight, allowing cost-effective training..." Mas Ayoob, Conceal Carry Gun Digest Books 2008

I thought long and hard about short barrels and effectiveness in choosing ammo for .357mag, so I can empathize with ya.

I am not a fan of +P loads in 45acp either, too little gain for the add'l. recoil & slower, accurate follow up shots, especially in small/ltwt guns. Std pressure rounds form 185gr-230gr work fine.
BTW, most avg men are 12" from shoulder to heart on an oblique shot. Never assume your target is going to give you a clear frontal shot. Even then, good chance a forearm is going to catch that bullet first. Now make it a bigger than avg attacker, add all that up & you can see why a 12" min. is what the FBI settled on. DOes that mean a 10" penetration doesn't get it done, maybe, maybe not.:dunno:

Warp
11-15-2012, 23:27
I am not a fan of +P loads in 45acp either, too little gain for the add'l. recoil & slower, accurate follow up shots, especially in small/ltwt guns. Std pressure rounds form 185gr-230gr work fine.
BTW, most avg men are 12" from shoulder to heart on an oblique shot. Never assume your target is going to give you a clear frontal shot. Even then, good chance a forearm is going to catch that bullet first. Now make it a bigger than avg attacker, add all that up & you can see why a 12" min. is what the FBI settled on. DOes that mean a 10" penetration doesn't get it done, maybe, maybe not.:dunno:

Also remember that breaking the skin requires more penetration than it's thickness would seem to indicate. I recall reading from a respected expert that it was the equivalent of 4" of bare ballistics gel penetration to get through the skin.

SCmasterblaster
11-16-2012, 11:20
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber. :cool:

Andy W
11-19-2012, 22:56
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber. :cool:

Not with modern ammo. 9mm JHPs can easily expand to greater than .50 caliber, with .60" not being uncommon and some instances of .70" in 147 grain HSTs. However, the best .45 JHPS can reach .8" with > .9" not being unheard of.

Also, a FMJ wound channel will not be the same diameter as the bullet that made it. They close in on themselves and will probably look more like an ice pick wound. With an FMJ or unexpanded bullet (even expanded ones sometimes), it will be next to impossible to tell what caliber bullet made the wound just from looking at the hole. I've read several reputable sources, including Mas Ayoob that verify this. It's not like on TV where the detective arrives at the crime scene takes one look at the body and says "Yep, they got him with a 9mm" or "holy ****, that's a .45."

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2012, 13:08
It shouldn't matter that much. I've seen gel tests that compare a G30 and a 5" 1911. The only difference is that the JHP shot out of a longer barrel expands slightly more.

Here is a guy who tested loads out of a Springfield XDs (even shorter barrel). http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/10/springfield-xds-carry-ammo-testing.html

Looks like the ammo performed well.

Also, tnoutdoors9 tested 230gr GoldDots out of a G30 and a 5" 1911. One test used newspaper in jugs and the other was gel, so that might make slight differences. Anyways... the 1911 bullet expanded slightly more than the G30 bullet.

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frFfF-hWpxk&feature=share&list=PL47112947DB1DE491)

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr Test with Denim - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNSS7tomtw&feature=share&list=PL47112947DB1DE491)

It looks like this guy got expansion! :cool:

fredj338
11-21-2012, 14:18
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber. :cool:

More expansion is nice but the diff really is getting a bullet to crush tissue & not just push it aside. Given that RNFMJ are like making small, semi sealing puncture wounds, I would take a 9mm that only expands to 45 cal vs a 45 RNFMJ. The perm wound will be larger, damage more tissue, greater/faster blood loss, quicker end to the fight.

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2012, 15:51
More expansion is nice but the diff really is getting a bullet to crush tissue & not just push it aside. Given that RNFMJ are like making small, semi sealing puncture wounds, I would take a 9mm that only expands to 45 cal vs a 45 RNFMJ. The perm wound will be larger, damage more tissue, greater/faster blood loss, quicker end to the fight.

That's right - crush it. FMJRN just pushes it aside. That is why I will never rely on FMJRN for defensive purposes.

Z28ricer
11-21-2012, 17:22
HST's work fine from the short barrel.

I also didnt have any complains of recoil with the HST +P's that I carried in my G30 when I had it.

unit1069
11-21-2012, 17:53
By the way, I'm gonna go ahead and sort of renege on my claim in my other thread that the .45 is not significantly better than the 9mm. Yes, I still maintain that the 9mm is a perfectly adequate defensive cartridge. However, I think the .45 does offer a substantial advantage in modern loads, namely the Ranger-T and HST. When I wrote my other thread, I was not aware that HSTs and Rangers in .45 were regularly expanding to .90" or greater and still penetrating more than 12." That's almost an inch in diameter. And I think I've seen a test or two where one of these loads actually expanded to just over 1." You have one of those sharp edged mother****ers tearing through you at that size, it's gonna **** your **** up.

I's also seen several .45ACP and 10mm ammo tests where the bullet hit 1" expansion.

SCmasterblaster
11-25-2012, 20:00
I's also seen several .45ACP and 10mm ammo tests where the bullet hit 1" expansion.

Awesome!

Z71bill
11-29-2012, 12:54
I have several cases of 9MM +P & +P+ that was purchased back when I was a NOOB and figured that more was power was always better.

Now - I care more about rapid & accurate shot placement than more power.

I can shoot follow up shots - faster & more accurately with standard power loads then I can using +P loads.

I am sure some guys can shoot both the same - and if you can GREAT. I thought the same thing until I did a few timed drills - and the stop watch proved me wrong.

I will from now on be sticking with standard power loads out of my .45 ACP.

The current HP technology seems to get good expansion even out of short barrel guns.

Strange that a few times when I went to buy some Federal HST loads (on line) the standard power loading COST MORE than the +P cartridges. I can only guess that there must be more people buying the +P. :dunno:

I paid the extra $1 to get standard loads. YMMV

SCmasterblaster
11-29-2012, 14:07
I have several cases of 9MM +P & +P+ that was purchased back when I was a NOOB and figured that more was power was always better.

Now - I care more about rapid & accurate shot placement than more power.

I can shoot follow up shots - faster & more accurately with standard power loads then I can using +P loads.

I am sure some guys can shoot both the same - and if you can GREAT. I thought the same thing until I did a few timed drills - and the stop watch proved me wrong.

I will from now on be sticking with standard power loads out of my .45 ACP.

The current HP technology seems to get good expansion even out of short barrel guns.

Strange that a few times when I went to buy some Federal HST loads (on line) the standard power loading COST MORE than the +P cartridges. I can only guess that there must be more people buying the +P. :dunno:

I paid the extra $1 to get standard loads. YMMV

Kindly let us know if you ever want to sell off any of the +p or +p+ 9mm rounds.

Z71bill
11-29-2012, 17:07
Kindly let us know if you ever want to sell off any of the +p or +p+ 9mm rounds.

I stuck the full cases in my "deep" rainy day SHTF TEOTWAWKI storage - (back of the spare bedroom closet:upeyes:).

Hope someday I can use it to teach my (as of now - unborn) grand-kids how to shoot.

Sad that some of this PREMIUM ammo cost me less than steel case FMJ WM crap does now. :wavey:

Or if the economy goes to hell maybe I can trade it for food.

WinterWizard
11-29-2012, 17:24
Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth.

Lack of penetration was most likely due to the 185gr weight. 185gr and below in .45 acp are notorious for lack of penetration due to reduced sectional density. Stick to 200gr and above.

ADK_40GLKr
11-29-2012, 19:51
See my recent post in this forum "200 grain (generic?)"

This was a hand loaded generic JHP (or similar) fired from my G38 with a 4.02" barrel. G30 is 3.78"; 0.24" less.

I'd had my doubts as this was stuff I picked up at my Local Gun Store for reloading. But it looks pretty effective. GD & Ranger HAVE TO be better than that.

I seriously doubt your G30 would lose that much velocity in that 1/4 inch less barrel. If you have doubts, try HP designed for "Short Barrels".

Do Gold Dot or Ranger T come in "Short barrel" loadings?:dunno:

mastrbloata
12-01-2012, 09:01
See my recent post in this forum "200 grain (generic?)"

This was a hand loaded generic JHP (or similar) fired from my G38 with a 4.02" barrel. G30 is 3.78"; 0.24" less.

I'd had my doubts as this was stuff I picked up at my Local Gun Store for reloading. But it looks pretty effective. GD & Ranger HAVE TO be better than that.

I seriously doubt your G30 would lose that much velocity in that 1/4 inch less barrel. If you have doubts, try HP designed for "Short Barrels".

Do Gold Dot or Ranger T come in "Short barrel" loadings?:dunno:
I know Gold Dot has the "short barrel" loading in 230gr. .45acp. The test I seem to recall always being mentioned about that round is 14" and 3/4".

SCmasterblaster
12-01-2012, 09:16
Lack of penetration was most likely due to the 185gr weight. 185gr and below in .45 acp are notorious for lack of penetration due to reduced sectional density. Stick to 200gr and above.

Excellent understanding of the problem. Many folks don't understand the importance of SD.

1canvas
03-03-2013, 10:18
when comparing expansion of calibers in gel many need to concider with frontal shots on people you probably have a 60% chance of hitting or clipping bone.

SCmasterblaster
03-03-2013, 13:48
Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?

Thanks. I was going to ask about the G30 barrel length. :cool:

PrecisionRifleman
03-03-2013, 19:16
I like the 200gr XTP in the G30. The 230gr XTP do well also accuracy wise, but I just have a personal preference for the 200gr.

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SCmasterblaster
03-04-2013, 06:47
Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?

I'd get some CorBon 185gr JHP +p rounds. They will expand coming out of a G30.

1canvas
03-04-2013, 10:48
Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?

as I understand the first generation 200grn GD had issues but that problem was fixed many years ago. the older design had six petals and the current design hollowpoint has seven.

WinterWizard
03-04-2013, 12:13
OP, expansion and penetration is not a factor with modern hollow point ammo, even out of the shorter barrel .45s.

TNOutdoors9 just did a Federal HST 230gr +P test out of a Springfield XDs (3.3" barrel), in which the bullet penetrated 12", expanded to .85" and had a vicious wound track which was about 1.75" at its widest. And that is out of a barrel that is shorter and has a less efficient rifling than the barrel found in the G30/36/30S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfqM3grAiyI

And if you think +P is too sharp recoil out of a G30, then .45 acp isn't for you, at least not compact .45s.

Andy W
03-04-2013, 17:02
OP, expansion and penetration is not a factor with modern hollow point ammo, even out of the shorter barrel .45s.

TNOutdoors9 just did a Federal HST 230gr +P test out of a Springfield XDs (3.3" barrel), in which the bullet penetrated 12", expanded to .85" and had a vicious wound track which was about 1.75" at its widest. And that is out of a barrel that is shorter and has a less efficient rifling than the barrel found in the G30/36/30S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfqM3grAiyI

And if you think +P is too sharp recoil out of a G30, then .45 acp isn't for you, at least not compact .45s.

Dude, where did I say "+p is too sharp recoil out of a G30?" I don't know if recoil is "too sharp" but I know it will be significantly more than a standard pressure 230 grain load and the advantages of using +p in .45 are questionable. Could I control it? Of course. But I'd rather stick with a standard pressure 230 grain JHP.


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WinterWizard
03-04-2013, 17:32
Dude, where did I say "+p is too sharp recoil out of a G30?" I don't know if recoil is "too sharp" but I know it will be significantly more than a standard pressure 230 grain load and the advantages of using +p in .45 are questionable. Could I control it? Of course. But I'd rather stick with a standard pressure 230 grain JHP.


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Dude, where did I address you personally?

Andy W
03-04-2013, 18:02
Dude, where did I address you personally?

Dude, you began your post with "OP."


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WinterWizard
03-04-2013, 19:42
Dude, you began your post with "OP."


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Well, the bottom part was a general statement. Perhaps that wasn't clear. Even the hottest loads out of my G36 are a cake walk.