Colt Marine CQB Pistol- Available to Civilians [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Rinspeed
11-17-2012, 07:39
These are cool pistols but I'm not sure they are worth $2,000, the rail kind of ruins it for me as well.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYPnIgzbdE&feature=channel&list=UL

glock2740
11-17-2012, 08:07
Not a $2000 pistol IMO.

faawrenchbndr
11-17-2012, 08:11
Lks like a painted Rail Gun to me,.........no thanks!

MD357
11-17-2012, 08:55
I like it, needs checkering but outside of that it looks great. Where are we getting the price info for these? are they already listed?

banger
11-17-2012, 09:19
I'll be willing to bet that despite the 2K price...

They sell more units to civilians than the 4,000 slated to equip the Marines.

matt_lowry123
11-17-2012, 10:17
No thanks!!!

FLIPPER 348
11-17-2012, 10:25
I'd happily buy one if I had 2K to spare.

glock2740
11-17-2012, 10:39
I'll be willing to bet that despite the 2K price...

They sell more units to civilians than the 4,000 slated to equip the Marines.
I wouldn't bet too much if I was you.

MD357
11-17-2012, 10:44
I wouldn't bet too much if I was you.

I would..... aside from any perceived collector value, it's a well built practical 1911 that will supposedly be built in their custom shop.

TK-421
11-17-2012, 11:04
I would..... aside from any perceived collector value, it's a well built practical 1911 that will supposedly be built in their custom shop.

Can't you get either the equivalent or even better for a lesser price?

em2b96p
11-17-2012, 11:31
Can't you get either the equivalent or even better for a lesser price?

Paint any railed 1911 tan and the buy the same grips. It wont say colt...

TK-421
11-17-2012, 11:36
Paint any railed 1911 tan and the buy the same grips. It wont say colt...

Fill in the logo/lettering with some sort of compound that will appear to be metal, then use a dremel to grind "Colt" into the slide, paint it over, might be a bit hard to tell the difference then.

Jeff82
11-17-2012, 11:48
The pistols are crap. Let me find you a link...

Here it is:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72301&page=10 Look at the pics in post #197.

MD357
11-17-2012, 11:50
Can't you get either the equivalent or even better for a lesser price?

Probably, but I won't be able to tell you till I handle one or see a price. Dan Wesson will probably be stiff competition I'm sure.

I never underestimate the draw of the pony. Warranted or not, they sell.

Rinspeed
11-17-2012, 11:52
The pistols are crap. Let me find you a link...





http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/Colt-3.jpg





http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/Colt-2.jpg




http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/Colt-1.jpg

MD357
11-17-2012, 12:19
I wouldn't be so quick to call them crap, they failed under "phase 2" of testing.
It would be interesting to know what "phase 2" entailed. Rumor is no lube and no spring change during test? I have a tough time believing that a majority of 1911 frame and slides would only last 12K rounds much less a colt. I've seen them go way past 50Ks personally. Heck, I'm probably approaching 10K on my LWT Colt frame built custom.

smokin762
11-17-2012, 12:28
In my opinion its way overpriced. But I do like it. :supergrin:

glock2740
11-17-2012, 12:33
I would..... aside from any perceived collector value, it's a well built practical 1911 that will supposedly be built in their custom shop.
Last I heard, there were only a few people who worked in Colt's Custom Shop, so if that's true, there's a gonna be a LOOONG wait, before they get the first 4000 out the door. Personally, I don't see what warrants this gun to spend ANY time in the CS. Is that where they paint them tan and install the grips? :dunno:I haven't even handled, much less shot one of these, but I'd be willing to bet that they won't be able to carry a DW Specialists's jock. And the Specialist isn't a "custom shop" gun. If someone wants to drop 2K on one of these, for the sake of owning a "military issued" 1911 that also happens to have the word Colt on the side of it, then knock yourself out and place an order. To each his own. But you couldn't sell me one for 1K. There's not a DAMN thing about them that I like. Not a rail fan. Not an ambi fan. Not a smooth front strap fan. And I'm not a desert tan paint job fan either. I am though, very glad to see the military ordering a 1911, of any kind, but sadly, it is not going to replace the M9 as the standard issue sidearm. And no, I am not a Beretta or an M9 fan. As a matter of fact, I own 5 Colt's.

JBnTX
11-17-2012, 12:57
I wouldn't be so quick to call them crap, they failed under "phase 2" of testing.
It would be interesting to know what "phase 2" entailed. Rumor is no lube and no spring change during test? I have a tough time believing that a majority of 1911 frame and slides would only last 12K rounds much less a colt. I've seen them go way past 50Ks personally. Heck, I'm probably approaching 10K on my LWT Colt frame built custom.


Older Colt pistols are good to go, but today's pistols have serious quality control issues.

Once upon a time Colt produced a quality product.
Those days are far behind us now.

It's a shame that the original producer of 1911 pistols has sunk so low.

TK-421
11-17-2012, 13:38
Personally, the only colt 1911 I'm interested in owning is one from WWII. Now those are sexy, especially with their history and everything they went through during the war.

MD357
11-17-2012, 15:00
Older Colt pistols are good to go, but today's pistols have serious quality control issues.

Once upon a time Colt produced a quality product.
Those days are far behind us now.

It's a shame that the original producer of 1911 pistols has sunk so low.

You're hittin some good pipe there my friend. Colt 1911s are much better than they've ever been. I'm not the only person to believe this, many well known smiths will agree. They had problems in the 80s but since, they're some of the better production 1911s out there.

MD357
11-17-2012, 15:25
Last I heard, there were only a few people who worked in Colt's Custom Shop, so if that's true, there's a gonna be a LOOONG wait, before they get the first 4000 out the door. Personally, I don't see what warrants this gun to spend ANY time in the CS. Is that where they paint them tan and install the grips?

Really? Who'd you "hear" that from? What would you know/could you know by looking at a picture? Please be specific.

I haven't even handled, much less shot one of these, but I'd be willing to bet that they won't be able to carry a DW Specialists's jock

Let's stop at the first part shall we? The point was that it will sell, sorry..... it has a pony on it and it looks to be a well built gun. The regular railed colts are great little guns so I imagine these will be too but we'll see.

And the Specialist isn't a "custom shop" gun. If someone wants to drop 2K on one of these, for the sake of owning a "military issued" 1911 that also happens to have the word Colt on the side of it, then knock yourself out and place an order. To each his own. But you couldn't sell me one for 1K. There's not a DAMN thing about them that I like. Not a rail fan. Not an ambi fan. Not a smooth front strap fan. And I'm not a desert tan paint job fan either.


That's great. You're not a fan, we get it. Ambi's, Rails, and Cerakote is all about preference but obviously very functional to those that would actually shoot it. Either way if people can drop $1500+ on a Mimber.... I can see these moving.

banger
11-17-2012, 16:18
Look, concerning price versus value.

To the "arm chair warrior", he will pay whatever it cost, simply to point to his treasured pistol and tell his friend that that's the same pistol that the Marines carry.

That means it kills your enemies "deader".

Consider, the 1873 Colt Single Action Army has been obsolete for nearly a century....Yet...the Colt Custom shop still cranks them out for over $1500.00 a pop.

AND....insult to injury, they are not even authentic to the originals. Yet... people continue to buy them.

As to the lack of quality control....It does not matter!

Most will never even be fired.

Returning to my Peace Maker example, until the growth of "Cowboy action shooting" most of the modern 1873's were never fired or even cocked.

Look no further than a Gun Show in your area.

With little trouble you will almost certainly find a N.I.B. third generation pistol still with it's tags and zip tie on the hammer.

Now try to find one that is used, but good condition...

I'll bet you can't find one.

Funny story about "Cowboy" shooters...many of those guy's bought the Colts form collectors who owned them for years, only to find out that they were defective and needed to be returned to Colt to have them corrected.

Timing issues, aiming issues, ever firing issues.

Colt made a "bundle" cranking those puppies out...Knowing that they would likely never be fired.

In closing...Colt Firearms Mfg. Co. is NOT your friend.

They are nearly Bankrupt for a reason.

Paul7
11-17-2012, 16:23
Probably, but I won't be able to tell you till I handle one or see a price. Dan Wesson will probably be stiff competition I'm sure.


My Dan Wesson Valor makes Colt look like a piece of junk. I can't stand the cratered lettering.

MD357
11-17-2012, 16:47
My Dan Wesson Valor makes Colt look like a piece of junk. I can't stand the cratered lettering.

Yep, comparing a $1500-1700 Valor to a stock Colt shows a significant difference for sure.

fnfalman
11-17-2012, 17:08
The pistols are crap. Let me find you a link...

Here it is:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72301&page=10 Look at the pics in post #197.

Yet somehow it beated out the IMBEL that was in the same trial. If the Colt trial ones were broken that badly, I'd hate to see what the IMBELs were like.

fnfalman
11-17-2012, 17:08
Lks like a painted Rail Gun to me,.........no thanks!

It is a painted Rail Gun.

faawrenchbndr
11-17-2012, 18:19
It is a painted Rail Gun.

Yep,......looks like a painted Rail Gun, none for me!

Paul7
11-17-2012, 21:47
Yep, comparing a $1500-1700 Valor to a stock Colt shows a significant difference for sure.

You're paying too much, I got mine for $1,350 delivered, only a few hundred more than a Colt. Both are production guns, not custom. For a little more you get a tight fit, front strap checkering, non-cratered lettering, and night sights.

I do have to say I really like the new Colt Mustang .380.

MD357
11-17-2012, 22:37
You're paying too much, I got mine for $1,350 delivered,

Yep and I paid $50 more for my Les Baer TRS than you paid for your Valor, doesn't mean it's commonplace. The going rate for Valors is exactly what I said. Unless you can provide a link?

Both are production guns, not custom. For a little more you get a tight fit, front strap checkering, non-cratered lettering, and night sights.


Glad you're up to speed on this. Never said either was custom, however you're not making an apples to apples comparison. Hopefully that's obvious? As far as the particular guns that are involved this thread, let's wait and see how the look when they come out to compare to be fair....

matt_lowry123
11-17-2012, 23:06
I wonder how it is compared to springfields MC operator or double star's 1911. Either way, I'd still go with a Dan Wesson. Whatever happened with the nighthawk GRP? I thought that was built for some special forces guys.

Those pics looks like the casting job on my SR1911

Tophatter
11-18-2012, 04:02
I think it's important to remember that, despite the fact Colt's going to be selling these as the "MARSOC gun," they're built differently from the guns that're going to the Marines. Those are specifically not hand-fit in the custom shop.

MD357
11-18-2012, 08:25
I think it's important to remember that, despite the fact Colt's going to be selling these as the "MARSOC gun," they're built differently from the guns that're going to the Marines. Those are specifically not hand-fit in the custom shop.

I don't think you have any clue what are talking about. Hint: YOu REALLY need to watch the video that was posted in the first post.

Paul7
11-18-2012, 09:22
Yep and I paid $50 more for my Les Baer TRS than you paid for your Valor, doesn't mean it's commonplace. The going rate for Valors is exactly what I said. Unless you can provide a link?


From today's Gunbroker, here's a LNIB for less than I paid:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=316477894

Hurricanes
11-18-2012, 09:27
I like it. Now would I pay that much for it, I don't know. Wish it did have some form of checkering or stippling on the front strap for the amount of money I'd be paying.
-Joel

MD357
11-18-2012, 09:58
From today's Gunbroker, here's a LNIB for less than I paid:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=316477894

Posting a link for used gun auction that hasn't sold yet is intellectually disingenuous at best. Want me to go through the trouble to post the majority of NEW Valors on GB and their asking price? Again, provide some links of some retail sites to show they don't go for ~$1500-1700 new.

If you bought yours used then great, you got an OK deal, if you have some site that sells them new and delivered for what you paid then post up.

Paul7
11-18-2012, 10:35
Posting a link for used gun auction that hasn't sold yet is intellectually disingenuous at best.

No, that gun will probably go for a few hundred more than a similar condition Colt, and with a lot more features.

Want me to go through the trouble to post the majority of NEW Valors on GB and their asking price?

I want you to go to the trouble of shopping around and find a deal like I did, as most people do when buying a gun. Who buys a gun for the first price they see?

Again, provide some links of some retail sites to show they don't go for ~$1500-1700 new.

If you bought yours used then great, you got an OK deal, if you have some site that sells them new and delivered for what you paid then post up.

Again, mine was new for $1,350 delivered, and a guy on the DW forum said he got one for $1,300 delivered. Mine is SS, which is less than the black DWs, but only a few hundred more than a SS Colt.

FLIPPER 348
11-18-2012, 10:41
you guys are funny

Mad Ryan
11-18-2012, 11:08
I was actually in the Marines and had buddies who were actually issued 1911's (I was just a Grunt. If we let them get that close we screwed up) But they were just beat to hell old colts for the most part. They all go bang. I'm not a fan of the new pistols. I'd just buy a Springfield railed TRP or a Pro before I'd get the Colt.

I agree tho that lots of people will buy them. I like a great 1911 as much as the next guy but were I to go back in the **** I'd take my Glock.

captcurly
11-18-2012, 16:25
For me it is over priced and not something I would not spend that kind of money.

SARDUDE
11-18-2012, 16:30
$900 out the door...Sig Sauer...

Tophatter
11-19-2012, 01:03
I don't think you have any clue what are talking about. Hint: YOu REALLY need to watch the video that was posted in the first post.

I did, which is why I know that, at around 50 seconds into the video, the Colt rep explains the differences between the MARSOC guns and the civilian guns. Hint: one involved hand-fitting, one doesn't.

Would you like to go back and watch it again, maybe?

faawrenchbndr
11-19-2012, 05:09
you guys are funny

Yep,......:popcorn:

glock2740
11-19-2012, 05:50
Yep,......:popcorn:

I agree. All this fuss over a painted rail gun from Colt, that happens to be way over priced. :faint:

3rdgen40
11-19-2012, 08:55
Not a $2000 pistol IMO.
Well, it does come with a Pelican case AND an Otis cleaning kit.:wow:

faawrenchbndr
11-19-2012, 10:02
Well, it does come with a Pelican case AND an Otis cleaning kit.:wow:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/Funnies/cc685838c7c815245422b019be2a0552.jpg

MD357
11-19-2012, 13:27
I agree. All this fuss over a painted rail gun from Colt, that happens to be way over priced. :faint:

Again, what would you know without even picking one up?

fnfalman
11-19-2012, 13:57
Well, it does come with a Pelican case AND an Otis cleaning kit.:wow:

And the bragging rights of being a USMC selected pistol. And a G10 grip or something like that.

MD357
11-19-2012, 14:03
No, that gun will probably go for a few hundred more than a similar condition Colt, and with a lot more features.

Gun sold for $1300. I've found used Colts for as little as $500.

I want you to go to the trouble of shopping around and find a deal like I did, as most people do when buying a gun. Who buys a gun for the first price they see?

They are selling at the prices I listed, whether you like it or not. Buying used is a whole different story and to follow that red herring is moot.

Again, mine was new for $1,350 delivered, and a guy on the DW forum said he got one for $1,300 delivered. Mine is SS, which is less than the black DWs, but only a few hundred more than a SS Colt.

As I figured, you couldn't provide any proof other than "on this other site this guy says." I dunno which exact colt you are trying to compare to, but they go for ~850-900 new around here. Rail guns are just a bit more.

MD357
11-19-2012, 14:09
I did, which is why I know that, at around 50 seconds into the video, the Colt rep explains the differences between the MARSOC guns and the civilian guns. Hint: one involved hand-fitting, one doesn't.

I get that. Please expound on your theory of significance.
Hint: Hand fitting costs money and generally amounts to higher quality. So the consumer models will supposedly have a higher amount of fit and finish.

faawrenchbndr
11-19-2012, 15:28
Is the finish CeraKote?

MajorD
11-19-2012, 15:35
I have posted this in other forums and the "differences" between the true issue gun and the civilian version may relate to the fact the contract (just like FN's M16 contract) specified Colt could not sell the same gun on the commercial market. This may be Colts way of:
1) cashing in on the hype associated with USMC issed gear
2) getting around the no civilian sales prohibition.

fnfalman
11-19-2012, 20:48
Is the finish CeraKote?

I believe so. Cerakote over stainless steel.

fnfalman
11-19-2012, 20:50
I have posted this in other forums and the "differences" between the true issue gun and the civilian version may relate to the fact the contract (just like FN's M16 contract) specified Colt could not sell the same gun on the commercial market. This may be Colts way of:
1) cashing in on the hype associated with USMC issed gear
2) getting around the no civilian sales prohibition.

Of course Colt is cashing in on the USMC SOC hype. Not unlike HK and their SOCOM pistol or Beretta and the M9 or Springfield Armory on their FBI contract, etc.

And you're right on Point 2 as well. Change just enough so that it isn't 100% GI then sell it.

fnfalman
11-19-2012, 20:54
The lanyard loop is da shiznit. Now that's a proper combat handgun.

GWG19
11-20-2012, 01:04
Look, concerning price versus value.

To the "arm chair warrior", he will pay whatever it cost, simply to point to his treasured pistol and tell his friend that that's the same pistol that the Marines carry.

That means it kills your enemies "deader".

Consider, the 1873 Colt Single Action Army has been obsolete for nearly a century....Yet...the Colt Custom shop still cranks them out for over $1500.00 a pop.

AND....insult to injury, they are not even authentic to the originals. Yet... people continue to buy them.

As to the lack of quality control....It does not matter!

Most will never even be fired.

Returning to my Peace Maker example, until the growth of "Cowboy action shooting" most of the modern 1873's were never fired or even cocked.

Look no further than a Gun Show in your area.

With little trouble you will almost certainly find a N.I.B. third generation pistol still with it's tags and zip tie on the hammer.

Now try to find one that is used, but good condition...

I'll bet you can't find one.

Funny story about "Cowboy" shooters...many of those guy's bought the Colts form collectors who owned them for years, only to find out that they were defective and needed to be returned to Colt to have them corrected.

Timing issues, aiming issues, ever firing issues.

Colt made a "bundle" cranking those puppies out...Knowing that they would likely never be fired.

In closing...Colt Firearms Mfg. Co. is NOT your friend.

They are nearly Bankrupt for a reason.

And your SASS number and Alias is?
I have several 3rd generation Colts. No problems with any of mine.
Having been involved in SASS since 2000 I have not heard of any of the things you speak of.

The only complaint I have ever heard is, is that they are not as tough as a Ruger. Well NS different internal design.

As far as Colt not being your friend. Really? I had a Colt Blue box, I was damaged by one of my pups. Chewed on. So I called Colt. They sent me a new box I paid shipping.

Tophatter
11-20-2012, 01:38
I get that. Please expound on your theory of significance.
Hint: Hand fitting costs money and generally amounts to higher quality. So the consumer models will supposedly have a higher amount of fit and finish.
My "theory of significance" is that they are not going to be identical to the guns given to the MARSOC guys, an assertion you seemed to blow a gasket over despite now agreeing with.

faawrenchbndr
11-20-2012, 05:00
I believe so. Cerakote over stainless steel.

Thanks,.......I actually learned something fron this thread. :cool:

glock2740
11-20-2012, 05:11
Well, it does come with a Pelican case AND an Otis cleaning kit.:wow:
Oh. Well in that case, I change my mind.

:rofl:

glock2740
11-20-2012, 05:16
Again, what would you know without even picking one up?
I know from looking at it and looking at the specs, that I would not pay 2K for one. Period. If you want one, knock yourself out. I know as much about it as you do. Have you picked one up and can speak from firsthand knowledge about how great they are and can justify the price?

Road Dog
11-20-2012, 08:03
Is it a series 80?

glock2740
11-20-2012, 08:23
Is it a series 80?
Yes it is.

glock2740
11-20-2012, 08:26
I believe so. Cerakote over stainless steel.
I know it has stainless parts, but have not heard that it has a stainless slide and frame too. Would make sense, as they said the stainless "parts" were to help in harsh conditions.

fnfalman
11-20-2012, 09:04
Thanks,.......I actually learned something fron this thread. :cool:

Colt must have bought stock in Cerakote or something because they put that over practically everything nowadays.

fnfalman
11-20-2012, 09:13
I know it has stainless parts, but have not heard that it has a stainless slide and frame too. Would make sense, as they said the stainless "parts" were to help in harsh conditions.

As you already know, it's based on the Rail Gun series and the Rail Gun series (3-options) all have stainless steel slides, one option has blued frame, the other option has bare SS slide mated to cerakoted SS frame, and the third option has cerakoted SS slide mated to cerakoted SS frame.

I believe that the USMC pistol is the third option with cerakoted everything (different color, of course) and some minor cosmetic changes (G10 grip panels for one).

So it's essentially a Rail Gun with a paint job and G10 grip panels. As far as the civilian version goes, the video claims that it comes from the custom shop with hand fitting...what does that mean? How much hand fitting? Is it worth the extra $800 over the standard Rail Gun?

I don't know and I ain't the one to cough out two Ks to find out. I like the Gyrines just fine but I don't feel the compunction to carry or own a gun that looks like a MEUSOC gun.

Rinspeed
11-20-2012, 09:33
Looks more like Desert White than Desert Tan. :dunno:









http://sheriffjimwilson.com/2012/10/28/the-marine-corps-colt/




http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/marine-corps-colt-1911-sheriff-jim-wilson-LO.jpg

MD357
11-20-2012, 10:53
My "theory of significance" is that they are not going to be identical to the guns given to the MARSOC guys, an assertion you seemed to blow a gasket over despite now agreeing with.

Not blowing a gasket by any means, just didn't understand how hand fitting would be a minus? As asked previously, care to elaborate the significance?

MD357
11-20-2012, 11:04
I know from looking at it and looking at the specs, that I would not pay 2K for one. Period.

I think you've stated this several times but I'm not really interested if you'd buy one or not. I'm interested to know what the gun will be without people casting worthless opinions based on pics in lieu of fact. The Colt WW reproduction I did own that came out of the Custom Shop was a well built 1911. Possibly these might be nice aswell? I'm just interested/curious. Who knows maybe they'll drop the ball, but I'd like to handle one before making any assumptions.

Tophatter
11-20-2012, 11:11
Not blowing a gasket by any means, just didn't understand how hand fitting would be a minus?
Well, as far as the Marines are concerned, it's a minus because they've already gone down the hand fitting road with the old MEU(SOC) M45. The reason they're picking up the Rail Gun to begin with is that the Precision Weapons Shop on Quantico simply can't keep up with the demand for both more hand-built 1911s, and maintenance on the ones already out.

The solicitation for an off-the-shelf replacement specifically required a 1911 that was capable of parts interchangeability - this is, according to some documentation, the main reason that Springfield's MC Operator lost out. The Colt, on the other hand, demonstrated parts interchangeability between all test guns.

For the Marines, hand fitting is a minus because it sets them right back on the path of being unable to keep up with maintenance demands, the path they've already gone down. For the consumer? It's not a minus.

Unless you want exactly what the Marines will be issuing, anyway. I personally don't, but then I'm not likely to buy it regardless. Doesn't keep me from feeling mildly annoyed when gun companies slap a misleading label on a commercialized version of a gun and sell it to the public as the real deal. Same thing annoyed me about the later P226 Navy from Sig.

MD357
11-20-2012, 11:29
For the consumer? It's not a minus.

Red herring ramblings aside, this is the point. :cool:

Now you can get annoyed that it's not exactly the same because it's likely to be built better but the specs are the same aside from possibly closer fitting.

Just about every 1911 maker has cheesy marketing now, I'd say this one will be as close to the original as they come. Don't see anything as misleading when it's supposedly going to be a step UP from the original.

Tophatter
11-20-2012, 12:46
Red herring ramblings aside, this is the point. :cool:

Now you can get annoyed that it's not exactly the same because it's likely to be built better but the specs are the same aside from possibly closer fitting.

Just about every 1911 maker has cheesy marketing now, I'd say this one will be as close to the original as they come. Don't see anything as misleading when it's supposedly going to be a step UP from the original.
I wouldn't call it red herring rambling. What if I wanted a 1911 with easy rebuilding potential due to parts interchangeability? I actually do, by the way.

As for being built 'better,' time will tell. Built differently, certainly. Just depends on what you're after. I've already got a bank vault-tight 1911 that can do 1" groups at 50 yards; what I'd like to find is one I can abuse as badly as my HKs and still have it run like a sewing machine. I suspect that's what the Marines are after, too, and likely why they picked a looser tolerance production gun over a hand fit - in addition to the primary requirement of interchangeability, of course.

MD357
11-20-2012, 13:23
What if I wanted a 1911 with easy rebuilding potential due to parts interchangeability? I actually do, by the way.

How would "interchangeability" be significant between the two? Be VERY specific as in which parts are you speaking of that you believe would be easier to swap vs how often you believe.... as a civilian.... you'll need to swap.

Just depends on what you're after. I've already got a bank vault-tight 1911 that can do 1" groups at 50 yards; what I'd like to find is one I can abuse as badly as my HKs and still have it run like a sewing machine. I suspect that's what the Marines are after, too, and likely why they picked a looser tolerance production gun over a hand fit - in addition to the primary requirement of interchangeability, of course.

Yeah the whole myth of needing looser tolerances is wasted on those that don't know any better. Granted that's just my opinion of seeing multiple hand fit 1911s go into some pretty significant round counts including ~100K rounds. I wager that the logistics of price and time vs need was a factor. Essentially, they probably don't have the time or money to wait for thousands of hand fit customs. They probably figure since the old Colt did the job for what the military needed, these would too.

Also FWIW, from what I've seen H&Ks don't take abuse well.

AKRover
11-20-2012, 13:38
This is an entertaining thread. I've seen a lot mention to a $2K price tag for this pistol but I'm still confused where this number is coming from. Anyone have a link or some support of this number?

MD357
11-20-2012, 13:44
This is an entertaining thread. I've seen a lot mention to a $2K price tag for this pistol but I'm still confused where this number is coming from. Anyone have a link or some support of this number?

I read on another forum that MSRP is $1999. I have no idea if that's true because of all the misinformation running around.

Tophatter
11-20-2012, 23:41
How would "interchangeability" be significant between the two? Be VERY specific as in which parts are you speaking of that you believe would be easier to swap vs how often you believe.... as a civilian.... you'll need to swap.
As a civilian? I rarely need to swap much of anything. I also have never needed my JHPs to expand, but I still like the feature.


Yeah the whole myth of needing looser tolerances is wasted on those that don't know any better. Granted that's just my opinion of seeing multiple hand fit 1911s go into some pretty significant round counts including ~100K rounds.
I'm not sure round counts have much to do with getting it muddy, sandy, bloody, etc., but I'd generally prefer a looser-fit 1911 if I had to, say, swim ashore and take a beach.

I wager that the logistics of price and time vs need was a factor. Essentially, they probably don't have the time or money to wait for thousands of hand fit customs. They probably figure since the old Colt did the job for what the military needed, these would too.
Yep, as I said, they simply can't afford to have these guns needing to go back to gunsmiths for rebuilds as frequently as the old hand-built MEU(SOC) pistols were needing to go.

Also FWIW, from what I've seen H&Ks don't take abuse well.
I wouldn't buy one, then, were I you.

Bottom line on this thing: same parts, built differently. If that equals the same gun to you, so be it.

MD357
11-21-2012, 00:36
As a civilian? I rarely need to swap much of anything. I also have never needed my JHPs to expand, but I still like the feature.

I figured I wouldn't get an answer here. :supergrin:

I'm not sure round counts have much to do with getting it muddy, sandy, bloody, etc., but I'd generally prefer a looser-fit 1911 if I had to, say, swim ashore and take a beach.

Right and as I said some only follow cliches from the internet. By the same theory several "tighter fitting" platforms wouldn't survive in the combat like lets say the AR or Beretta.

The reality is.... that "loose" or "tight" is not a measure of reliability. It's how the gun is set up and how the working parts are clearanced.

Bottom line on this thing: same parts, built differently. If that equals the same gun to you, so be it.

Same parts built with a higher level of fitting. In which a properly fit gun by hand will only enhance the life of the gun. Coulda, shoulda, woulda mythical modularity aside, I think it's obvious that for any practical application it's a benefit.

Tophatter
11-21-2012, 01:59
I figured I wouldn't get an answer here. :supergrin:
I'd go back and re-read.

Right and as I said some only follow cliches from the internet. By the same theory several "tighter fitting" platforms wouldn't survive in the combat like lets say the AR or Beretta.
Ah, this may be where the issue lies. If you've never had something like a Baer, it's difficult to convey how tight 'tight' can get, and I suppose that might make you think we're talking about, say, Beretta production levels of tightness. Not the case.

The reality is.... that "loose" or "tight" is not a measure of reliability. It's how the gun is set up and how the working parts are clearanced.
And you've verified this with extensive environmental testing, a la the acquisition process for the new M45? Excellent.

Same parts built with a higher level of fitting. In which a properly fit gun by hand will only enhance the life of the gun. Coulda, shoulda, woulda mythical modularity aside, I think it's obvious that for any practical application it's a benefit.
You know, I'd actually go read the solicitation and, provided you can find them, the testing results. Or contact the MARSOC folks directly and let them know they're doing it all wrong. They've been working with hand-built 1911s for over two decades, and wanted a commercial replacement with parts interchangeability that required zero hand-fitting. You'll want to let them know they're making a huge mistake, because a hand-fit gun is always better. It's why everyone else uses nothing but hand-fit customs.

MD357
11-21-2012, 08:06
I'd go back and re-read.

Read it just fine. Asked for specific parts, that you think you're gonna drop in, got an analogy.

Ah, this may be where the issue lies. If you've never had something like a Baer, it's difficult to convey how tight 'tight' can get, and I suppose that might make you think we're talking about, say, Beretta production levels of tightness. Not the case.

Try again my friend, there's a well broken-in TRS in my safe, among other semi-customs and full house customs. I've tried just about everything at one point, including a Colt custom shop gun. Rather, I'm speaking from experience of ownership..... you?? Hint: They're not SACS or Baer, hardly anybody is in terms of building em that tight. Only those with limited experience will assume the extreme that any "hand fit" 1911 will lock up as tight as these guns. Otherwise, ownership of..... take your pick of several custom and or "hand-fit" 1911s that don't lock up that tight...... will provide otherwise.

The original point really should be obvious though, many people think relatively tighter built platforms will fail in combat, and history and experience proves different.

And you've verified this with extensive environmental testing, a la the acquisition process for the new M45? Excellent.

I'm going on anecdotes just as you are for sure, unless you can provide any reference of your own? However, I'll stick with logic and understanding of the platform with reaffirmation of some of the best of the business. If you disagree, great, most people tend to just parrot what they hear or see on the internet instead of investigating how things work.

You know, I'd actually go read the solicitation and, provided you can find them, the testing results. Or contact the MARSOC folks directly and let them know they're doing it all wrong. They've been working with hand-built 1911s for over two decades, and wanted a commercial replacement with parts interchangeability that required zero hand-fitting.

Why would I contact them? Even though your points are erroneous to a degree, I stated earlier that I understand THEIR situation, regarding the logistics of equiping a 1911 for a force. My comments were pertaining to YOU.

This all started because you think the marketing is misleading you because of your experience with other platforms yes? I then asked for the signficance of the difference of hand fitting as pertaining to the civilian market or even you. Problem is, and what I've been hinting to, in terms of part wearing out in a 1911 I understand which are likely to go first. I understand that properly hand fit parts are likely to increase the life of said parts and the 1911, opposed to anyone believes that these critical parts in a 1911 are truly drop-in or that they could drop them in without any knowledge? If they DID have a rememdial amount of said knowledge, maybe they'd understand they'd want a properly spec'ed 1911 and fitted in the first place IF they were to start switching out parts to make life easier. The whole TRUE modularity, drop-in theory just doesn't pertain to 1911s as a whole relative to let's say..... polymer platforms.

FLIPPER 348
11-21-2012, 08:11
This all started because .......




....because y'all are a bunch of 1911 drama-queens

Tophatter
11-21-2012, 09:00
Read it just fine. Asked for specific parts, that you think you're gonna drop in, got an analogy.
Oh, you want the specific parts they're looking to change between individual guns? It's everything.

From the Initial Technical Evaluation Report:

5. A summary of the evaluation of the Offerors follows:

a. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference (d), paragraphs 3.5.3 and 4.6.3, one bid sample failed to fully interchange. The failing sample demonstrated an inability to function with the interchanged grip safety or any other grip safeties installed from the spare parts block.

...

b. Colt Manufacturing LLC: Unacceptable.

...

Stengths:

...

e. Parts Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples met the requirement for parts interchangeability...All components interchanged, passed LTI, and passed the dispersion test.

...

c. [redacted]: Unacceptable.

Deficiencies:

a. Interchangeability: The offeror's bid samples did not fully interchange and pass the Limited Technical Inspection (LTI). After complete interchange of parts between all ten (10) bid samples per reference... three bid samples failed to fully interchange. Per enclosure (6), one sample would not lock closed, and two others displayed excessive lock up.

The other two manufacturers, by the way, are Springfield Armory with the MC Operator and something built by Karl Lippard.

So, any part, requiring any hand fitting, was a failure to meet testing requirements. The Colt failed because the new recoil system initially required a recess be hollowed out in the slide, which led to structural integrity issues that caused the much-noted frame cracks we've all seen pictures of. Colt was allowed to redesign and declared to have passed without retesting, which is a whole other ball of wax not germane to this thread.

I'm going on anecdotes just as you are for sure, unless you can provide any reference of your own?
See above. I'm going on some obscure-but-open-to-the-public reports and OFUO info.


Why would I contact them? Even though your points are erroneous to a degree, I stated earlier that I understand THEIR situation, regarding the logistics of equiping a 1911 for a force. My comments were pertaining to YOU.

This all started because you think the marketing is misleading you because of your experience with other platforms yes?
No, I think the marketing is misleading because the marketing is misleading. This is a good summary from another forum by someone who, while not involved in the testing, has access to the results:

But the Marine Corps solicitation specifically requested that it not be hand fitted - meaning either one of two things - the actual components used to build the Marine Corps pistols are different, most likely more expensive to produce parts built with tighter tolerances, and possibly different materials or methods, while the civilian versions will be built with the same "run of the mill" parts that need to be hand fitted.

Or, the civilian pistols are being built with rejected parts that are outside of the tolerances, and consequently need to be hand fitted.

Odd as it may seem to say that being hand fitted is a negative aspect of a 1911, the point is, they won't be exact copies of the military issued pistols, and in fact, the details of their manufacture will run counter to one of the main features of the pistol - namely that they do not require gunsmith support to maintain, but can be simply repaired at an armorer level.

If your goal is to get an exact copy of the Marine Corps pistol, you're still missing one of the critical points of the solicitation, and one of the main selling points to the Marines in this pistol.

The "spec" was for interchangeable parts - not hand fitting, whether hand fitting on the level of a full custom shop, or hand fitting on the level of a standard production Rail Gun.

MD357
11-21-2012, 10:27
....because y'all are a bunch of 1911 drama-queens

Jerry..... Jerry...... Jerry..... Jerry......

MD357
11-21-2012, 11:04
Oh, you want the specific parts they're looking to change between individual guns? It's everything.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not reading what I said multiple times. I'm insterested in what YOU would switch out or THINK you'd need to switch out after use. You see, you are not a force of 4,000 heading downrange.

The other two manufacturers, by the way, are Springfield Armory with the MC Operator and something built by Karl Lippard.

So, any part, requiring any hand fitting, was a failure to meet testing requirements. The Colt failed because the new recoil system initially required a recess be hollowed out in the slide, which led to structural integrity issues that caused the much-noted frame cracks we've all seen pictures of. Colt was allowed to redesign and declared to have passed without retesting, which is a whole other ball of wax not germane to this thread.

That's all great but it's a red herring to anything I said in the previous post. You keep tapdancing and talking about the military trials..... we've established THEIR needs are different. If you feel YOU needs are simliar in the sense of parts interchangability then by all means.... again.... be specific.

I'm going on some obscure-but-open-to-the-public reports and OFUO info.

You posted nothing that showed anything to compromise what I said about reliability. You posted some fragments of a report.

No, I think the marketing is misleading because the marketing is misleading. This is a good summary from another forum by someone who, while not involved in the testing, has access to the results:

Apply some reference or critical thinking here from yourself? It's a joke to post what someone else said on the internet without reference after a quick google search. Otherwise, I could just head over to arf.com where you got it?

Tophatter
11-21-2012, 11:30
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not reading what I said multiple times. I'm insterested in what YOU would switch out or THINK you'd need to switch out after use. You see, you are not a force of 4,000 heading downrange.
I don't recall saying I'd need to switch anything out, barring something breaking - which has been known to happen. Why is that your focus?


That's all great but it's a red herring to anything I said in the previous post. You keep tapdancing and talking about the military trials..... we've established THEIR needs are different. If you feel YOU needs are simliar in the sense of parts interchangability then by all means.... again.... be specific.
We're talking about the military trials because you refuse to acknowledge that the military version of the gun is built differently than the civilian version.

Apply some reference or critical thinking here from yourself?
I have. It's going to be built differently than the Marines' version. Said it plenty of times, pointed to the video of the Colt rep saying it plenty of times. Somehow, it still hasn't sunk in on your end.

It's not the same gun. I'm not sure why you're insisting so hard that it is, but the facts simply don't favor your interpretation.

It's a joke to post what someone else said on the internet without reference after a quick google search. Otherwise, I could just head over to arf.com where you got it?
No Google-fu needed, I was pretty involved in that thread, and Augee summed up my feelings on it nicely.

MD357
11-21-2012, 12:15
I don't recall saying I'd need to switch anything out, barring something breaking - which has been known to happen. Why is that your focus?

I was incorrect in my assumption that you weren't reading what I said. :cool:

We're talking about the military trials because you refuse to acknowledge that the military version of the gun is built differently than the civilian version.


I'm providing that it doesn't make any difference to a civilian and it's only a plus that they are fitted a little closer. (if certain parts need extensive fitting at all) What you're not getting is that their considerations for the military are moot for YOU, unless you can provide otherwise. Hence my line of questions you didn't understand.

No Google-fu needed, I was pretty involved in that thread, and Augee summed up my feelings on it nicely.

Yep, he's the guy that pretty much agrees with what I've been saying on terms of signficance of perceived difference. I however disagree with the authenticity as the guy that actually builds 1911s in that thread, has a point.



It's not the same gun. I'm not sure why you're insisting so hard that it is, but the facts simply don't favor your interpretation.

As stated earlier for any practical purposes it is with a bonus, I guess if true authenticity is your only goal then there's a ton of slippery slop there. Same parts, specs, coating, steel, etc.

3rdgen40
11-21-2012, 12:23
....because y'all are a bunch of 1911 drama-queens
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Paul7
11-21-2012, 12:36
Gun sold for $1300. I've found used Colts for as little as $500.



They are selling at the prices I listed, whether you like it or not. Buying used is a whole different story and to follow that red herring is moot.



As I figured, you couldn't provide any proof other than "on this other site this guy says." I dunno which exact colt you are trying to compare to, but they go for ~850-900 new around here. Rail guns are just a bit more.

Are you trying to say the Colt is as good as the DW?

MD357
11-21-2012, 12:43
Are you trying to say the Colt is as good as the DW?

Dunno how anyone could get that from what I said. To put it in plain english, all things being equal in terms of new or used..... A DW is significantly more than a Colt in terms of cost.... as it should be. Again, wanting to compare used prices to new is a joke and thus my original price points are accurate.

Whether or not these particular guns hold up to DW remains to be seen.

fnfalman
11-22-2012, 13:28
....because y'all are a bunch of 1911 drama-queens

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!

Colt had served America for nearly two hundred years of honorable service!!!

Are you some sort of commie?

Paul7
11-27-2012, 11:26
Dunno how anyone could get that from what I said. To put it in plain english, all things being equal in terms of new or used..... A DW is significantly more than a Colt in terms of cost.... as it should be. Again, wanting to compare used prices to new is a joke and thus my original price points are accurate.


When I brought up the DW for $1,350, I wasn't comparing new to used.

SigFTW
11-27-2012, 12:38
Pass, I could get two Kimbers for the same price!:popcorn:

Paul7
11-27-2012, 14:16
Pass, I could get two Kimbers for the same price!:popcorn:

There's a reason for that.

MD357
11-27-2012, 14:18
When I brought up the DW for $1,350, I wasn't comparing new to used.

Dunno why you're so thickheaded about this. You jumped in this thread beating your chest about your DW Valor in comparison to a colt. I said the going rate is ~1500-1700 depending on the model. You SAY you supposedly got yours for $1350 shipped. More power to you if true, however, as I said earlier those types of deals are now few and far between, if they exist. As proof, you posted a USED gun that sold for the same neighborhood. All things being equal, there's a significant price difference between the two.

Wil Ufgood
11-27-2012, 14:49
Bring these babies back

http://preview.turbosquid.com/Preview/2011/06/03__19_23_09/Colt2.jpgd5679359-0539-4a84-b7f7-a99a9d4387d5Large.jpg

Paul7
11-27-2012, 16:29
Dunno why you're so thickheaded about this. You jumped in this thread beating your chest about your DW Valor in comparison to a colt. I said the going rate is ~1500-1700 depending on the model. You SAY you supposedly got yours for $1350 shipped. More power to you if true, however, as I said earlier those types of deals are now few and far between, if they exist. As proof, you posted a USED gun that sold for the same neighborhood. All things being equal, there's a significant price difference between the two.

Do you want to see the receipt from April? If so, I expect you to be man enough to apologize here, since you're saying I made it up. Go over to the DW forum, people do get deals like that, at least those who know how to look.