G17 and Federal HST 9mm +P 147 Grain [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : G17 and Federal HST 9mm +P 147 Grain


Ljutic
11-18-2012, 09:26
This load restores my faith in the 147 bullet weights for the 9mm. Pretty awesome performance in the clear gel.

9mm Federal 147 Grain HST +P Clear Gel Test - Long Barrel - YouTube

LawScholar
11-18-2012, 09:44
My friend recently got a G4 G17 for her first gun after she and I tested a bunch. I got her the 147-grain HST and we put the 17+1 pistol in a GunVault and I feel much better about her home and office security now. The expansion on that round is insane. It looks like a starfish of death when expanded.

cowboy1964
11-18-2012, 11:06
Firing into bare gel and from a Glock 17 certainly helps the test.

Strange that the gel shot velocity came in quite a bit below the 5-shot velocity string. Just a statistical anomaly I suppose.

The non +P 147 HST is also good. For anyone ultra recoil sensitive this is about the best possible compromise between effectiveness and recoil that there is.

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/Denim - YouTube

SCmasterblaster
11-18-2012, 11:54
Great expansion!

9mm +p+
11-18-2012, 12:41
Still no way I'd carry a 147 load in a 9mm.

SCmasterblaster
11-18-2012, 13:48
Still no way I'd carry a 147 load in a 9mm.

I wouldn't either. 115gr JHP +p+ for me.

unit1069
11-18-2012, 15:57
It seems to me that there's very little difference in performance between the standard pressure and +P 147-grain HST, so I guess that's a plus for anyone choosing this particular Federal round.

I still think the lighter 115- and 124/127-grain 9mm rounds have a more explosive wound track without losing anything in penetration.

jlavallee
11-18-2012, 17:36
I've been using the non +p load as my primary carry load for years now. I did a bunch of tests on various media and it came down to the HST 147 or the HST 124 +p+ with the 124 +p Ranger T in third.

Thankfully I bought a couple of cases and I thought it was expensive then but compared to now, it is nothing.

SCmasterblaster
11-19-2012, 13:22
I've been using the non +p load as my primary carry load for years now. I did a bunch of tests on various media and it came down to the HST 147 or the HST 124 +p+ with the 124 +p Ranger T in third.

Thankfully I bought a couple of cases and I thought it was expensive then but compared to now, it is nothing.

What kind of velocity did you get for the 9mm 124gr +p+ rounds?

Tiro Fijo
11-19-2012, 14:08
What kind of velocity did you get for the 9mm 124gr +p+ rounds?


There is no 124 gr. +p+ HST. It is only +p & standard. Fed. does however still make a 124 gr. +p+ Hydra Shok and it is next to worthless as it doesn't even break 1200 fps and rarely opens up if at all.

Ljutic
11-19-2012, 19:05
Fed. does however still make a 124 gr. +p+ Hydra Shok and it is next to worthless as it doesn't even break 1200 fps and rarely opens up if at all.

Wish I had seen this before I ordered a box yesterday to add to my testing stock. Oh well, I guess it's good to occasionally test bad ones too.

kenndapp
11-19-2012, 20:52
the second video (for 147 standard) is from tnoutdoors9 (hope i spelled the name right.)

he also tested the +p. i think his meathods are pretty sound. i also think he may be a forum member.

Federal HST 9mm +P 147 gr JHP Ammo Test - YouTube

i am pretty sure the reason the +p got 14" in the clear gel but only 11" in calibrated ballistics gel......... was the clear gel. just saying.
with greater expansion comes less penetration.

jlavallee
11-19-2012, 21:14
Perhaps it was +p in the HST 124, I could have sworn it was a +P+ load but maybe I am wrong. I can confirm that the Hydra Shock load I tested was not very impressive but that was a 115gr. I didn't chrono but I did test into water jugs, drywall ahead of water jugs, phone books and a couple of layers of denim over a hog. I just wanted to see for myself and this was out of a G26.

As I remember I tried all three weights in the Speer GD, all three in Ranger T but I don't think the 127 was out then, a Corbon 115 +P, Magtech in the 20 rd boxes at 115gr, remington bulk HP 115gr and a few other ones I had laying around.

Anyway, up to then I had often carried a 124 GD and was surprised to find that it seemed to plug and not really expand in the hog. To be honest, none except the HST and the 124 Ranger always penetrated and expanded somewhat. The Ranger 147 didn't expand for me in the pig as was the problem for a lot of rounds. A buddy of mine had been carrying the CorBon 115 +P because that was at one point the Mas Ayoob recommended load and it didn't measure up either with good but never great performance. We really should have video taped it all but the whole test thing was a pretty quick decision while looking at ammo at a gun show.

In the end we ran another couple of boxes of HST and Ranger through other guns like a G17, P99, 92FS, kahr/kel tec thing and the 147 HST always did pretty well. Ranger seemed to need more velocity when we shot out of his little gun but no matter what, it seemed like the 147gr HST always expanded and penetrated pretty well. P9HST2 is the code for the one we went with although there is a +p 147 HST out now, I've never tried it. I've ran the P9HST2 through all the guns I carry for function and point of aim/impact and regardless of what new stuff comes out, I'm happy with HST and still have about a case left. We bought 5k between us afterward and I could cry because it was less than a grand with taxes in late 06' which we thought was pretty darn expensive especially buying in bulk.

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/jlavallee_photos/IMG_2478.jpg

kenndapp
11-19-2012, 21:29
hearing those '06 prices makes me want to cry! and yes, this is an p9hst2 vs p9hst4 thread....i think. some one correct me if those are not right. i have a about 5 or 6 boxes of BOTH because i bought a half case of both and that's whats left after trying to find a damn advantage of one over the other. i still haven't decided which velocity variant of the 147gr i am more comfortable with.

Tiro Fijo
11-19-2012, 23:09
...I can confirm that the Hydra Shock load I tested was not very impressive but that was a 115gr...


There has never been a Hydra Shok 9mm in 115 gr.

jlavallee
11-20-2012, 01:15
There has never been a Hydra Shok 9mm in 115 gr.

:upeyes: The stuff in the grey box that everyone used have for sale. Apparently that is Hi Shok and not Hydra Shock... :crying:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-4061

Ljutic
11-20-2012, 13:44
the second video (for 147 standard) is from tnoutdoors9 (hope i spelled the name right.)

he also tested the +p. i think his meathods are pretty sound. i also think he may be a forum member.

i am pretty sure the reason the +p got 14" in the clear gel but only 11" in calibrated ballistics gel......... was the clear gel. just saying.
with greater expansion comes less penetration.

He is a forum member and seems to be a really good guy based on our exchange of messages via YouTube. I wouldn't compare the tests as there are too many other factors. Different barrel lengths, denim vs. no denim, and different media. The G17 test was only half the story as I also tested the same load in the short barrel PM9 but didn't post that test here because it wasn't shot from a Glock.

TWS G26
11-20-2012, 21:02
the second video (for 147 standard) is from tnoutdoors9 (hope i spelled the name right.)

he also tested the +p. i think his meathods are pretty sound. i also think he may be a forum member.

Federal HST 9mm +P 147 gr JHP Ammo Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WILeK66Y)

i am pretty sure the reason the +p got 14" in the clear gel but only 11" in calibrated ballistics gel......... was the clear gel. just saying.
with greater expansion comes less penetration.



Thanks for posting those. Yeah, I check in here every once in awhile, looking at the crap that I'm stirring up!

kenndapp
11-20-2012, 21:17
hey tnoutdoors9! love the tests, great job! especially looking forward to the up coming rifle ammunition tests, particularly 5.56/223 and 7.62/.308 hunting/tac loads.

do you feel your test between 147gr hst +p and standard pressure 147gr hst were accurate?

and by that i mean..... if we were to take 147gr hst +p and standard pressure 147gr hst back to back in 100 different test in 100 different ways that the standard pressure would always penetrate more than the +p due to the wider expansion of the +p creating the parachute effect and slowing it down more rapidly?

unit1069
11-20-2012, 21:51
hey tnoutdoors9! love the tests, great job!

I second that! Would love to see a test of the 9mm Fiocchi 115-grain Extrema XTP to see how it compares with the standard pressure 115-grain Speer Gold Dot posted a while back.

Those of us with small pocket 9mm pistols that the manufacturer warns against using +P need choices for our short-barrel pistols.

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2012, 12:33
:upeyes: The stuff in the grey box that everyone used have for sale. Apparently that is Hi Shok and not Hydra Shock... :crying:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-4061

Hi Shok is apparently quite different than Hydra-Shock. I don't offhand know what it is . . . . .

TWS G26
11-21-2012, 13:35
hey tnoutdoors9! love the tests, great job! especially looking forward to the up coming rifle ammunition tests, particularly 5.56/223 and 7.62/.308 hunting/tac loads.

do you feel your test between 147gr hst +p and standard pressure 147gr hst were accurate?

and by that i mean..... if we were to take 147gr hst +p and standard pressure 147gr hst back to back in 100 different test in 100 different ways that the standard pressure would always penetrate more than the +p due to the wider expansion of the +p creating the parachute effect and slowing it down more rapidly?

I can't guarantee it, but the +P version may penetrate less in most gel tests due to the higher energy and faster expansion. In the real world, which is what we train for, it may not make any difference; especially when you consider bone, trajectory, body mass, etc.

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2012, 15:56
My friend recently got a G4 G17 for her first gun after she and I tested a bunch. I got her the 147-grain HST and we put the 17+1 pistol in a GunVault and I feel much better about her home and office security now. The expansion on that round is insane. It looks like a starfish of death when expanded.

Great choice for a first gun - the G17. My first and only Glock was and is a Glock Model 17.

jlavallee
11-21-2012, 20:54
Hi Shok is apparently quite different than Hydra-Shock. I don't offhand know what it is . . . . .

I had to go take a look after the comment and Hydra have the post in the center of the hollow point where, Hi Shok do not. I thought they just had posts in some and not in others of the old one.

The only ammo with the post I've had is the 147 gr +P+ federal Hydra .38 SPL and I know that because I still have some.

LawScholar
11-22-2012, 02:58
Great choice for a first gun - the G17. My first and only Glock was and is a Glock Model 17.

Yeah, I agree. Creampuff recoil, too. I'm mostly a .40/.45 guy but I can definitely see the rapid shots-on-target appeal of the G17. Quality is apparent too.

I'm happy she chose it. It's a gun designed for punishing police and military use. It should be able to handle a box of 50 every month or two and a cozy, well-maintained GunVault life.

SCmasterblaster
11-25-2012, 18:18
Yeah, I agree. Creampuff recoil, too. I'm mostly a .40/.45 guy but I can definitely see the rapid shots-on-target appeal of the G17. Quality is apparent too.

I'm happy she chose it. It's a gun designed for punishing police and military use. It should be able to handle a box of 50 every month or two and a cozy, well-maintained GunVault life.

You'd do well to get some Federal or Winchester 9mm 115gr JHP +p+ loads for her G17. The bullet velocity will exceed 1400 FPS in her G17. Try doing an internet search for it.

LawScholar
11-26-2012, 10:01
You'd do well to get some Federal or Winchester 9mm 115gr JHP +p+ loads for her G17. The bullet velocity will exceed 1400 FPS in her G17. Try doing an internet search for it.

I'm familiar with those, with the 9BPLE particularly. I've always been of the opinion that if you're going to do +p+ you should just get a .40 because you're losing the main advantage of 9, which is the easiest follow-up shots. In my experience a 180-grain .40 shoots softer than any +p+ 9mm, and given that I'd rather put the .40 on-target. My friend is recoil-averse and the HST 147s are both impressive in testing and very gentle.

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 10:19
The WW or Fed 9mm115gr JHP +p+ loads don't have much recoil at all.

LawScholar
11-26-2012, 10:40
The WW or Fed 9mm115gr JHP +p+ loads don't have much recoil at all.

Fair 'nuff, the only +p+ I've shot is the 127-grain Winchester

I don't mean to disparage the +p+ 115 as a manstopper, it definitely has been proven that for a while

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 11:16
Fair 'nuff, the only +p+ I've shot is the 127-grain Winchester

I don't mean to disparage the +p+ 115 as a manstopper, it definitely has been proven that for a while

And the recoil of the 115gr +p+ load isn't too bad.

LawScholar
11-26-2012, 11:42
And the recoil of the 115gr +p+ load isn't too bad.

I don't really think any service-caliber handgun recoils that much, just that it's similar enough to 180-grain .40 recoil that I'd rather go with the .40

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 17:07
I don't really think any service-caliber handgun recoils that much, just that it's similar enough to 180-grain .40 recoil that I'd rather go with the .40

Go for it! :supergrin:

ABNAK
11-26-2012, 18:01
The 147gr +P HST is the way to go if you want good expansion, penetration, AND smooth shooting.

I fired it into a couple Boston butt roasts through denim a few months ago from a Glock 19 (the G17 should give even better performance) and got .60" expansion. Pretty good for a 9mm and a soft shooter too.

kenndapp
11-26-2012, 18:54
The 147gr +P HST is the way to go if you want good expansion, penetration, AND smooth shooting.

I fired it into a couple Boston butt roasts through denim a few months ago from a Glock 19 (the G17 should give even better performance) and got .60" expansion. Pretty good for a 9mm and a soft shooter too.

What were your penetrate action results? Did you find reduced penetration due to the added expansion of the +p ?

SCmasterblaster
11-27-2012, 08:25
What were your penetrate action results? Did you find reduced penetration due to the added expansion of the +p ?

I have heard of this phenomenon, and I sometimes wonder if my CCW load has enough penetration (9mm 115gr JHP +p+ - 1400 FPS MV).

kenndapp
11-27-2012, 09:26
Well extra expansion does provide extra resistance on the bullet. That's why the 147 hst standard gets more penetration than it's +p counterpart. I don't think I would use a 115 gr for any thing more than paper punching. I don't care how fast it's going. I am not willing to trade inches of penetration for fractions of expansion. But that being said I keep both standard and +p hst's around. Most test I have seen give the edge to the standard pressure due to 12" of penetration minimum where plus p falls just a tad short. But like tnoutdoors stated earlier in this thread....... Thees are just test. There are no barriers or bone, nor different consistancies in the test media like fat, muscle, organs ext, ext. so will that extra 50 fps of the +p 147gr hst do some thing extra when It's actually fired into a living creature? I have no idea.

ABNAK
11-27-2012, 11:36
What were your penetrate action results? Did you find reduced penetration due to the added expansion of the +p ?


I had ~ 13" of meat to penetrate through. Placed a gallon ziplock bag behind it to catch anything that went through and make it easier to find the bullet (as opposed to digging it out of a bag of Sakrete I used as a final backstop). The 147gr +P HST was found in the bag of water, so it penetrated 4 layers of denim and 13+ inches of pork loin while expanding to .60".

I did not test the standard pressure round.

I would go with the +P version as the extra velocity can't hurt IMHO. It averaged 1021fps from a Glock 19.

kenndapp
11-27-2012, 11:51
I had ~ 13" of meat to penetrate through. Placed a gallon ziplock bag behind it to catch anything that went through and make it easier to find the bullet (as opposed to digging it out of a bag of Sakrete I used as a final backstop). The 147gr +P HST was found in the bag of water, so it penetrated 4 layers of denim and 13+ inches of pork loin while expanding to .60".

I did not test the standard pressure round.

I would go with the +P version as the extra velocity can't hurt IMHO. It averaged 1021fps from a Glock 19.
Damn good results.

SCmasterblaster
11-28-2012, 15:06
I had ~ 13" of meat to penetrate through. Placed a gallon ziplock bag behind it to catch anything that went through and make it easier to find the bullet (as opposed to digging it out of a bag of Sakrete I used as a final backstop). The 147gr +P HST was found in the bag of water, so it penetrated 4 layers of denim and 13+ inches of pork loin while expanding to .60".

I did not test the standard pressure round.

I would go with the +P version as the extra velocity can't hurt IMHO. It averaged 1021fps from a Glock 19.

So I can expect about 1100 FPS out of my G17 with this load.

kenndapp
11-28-2012, 15:15
So I can expect about 1100 FPS out of my G17 with this load.

i really don't think you get much over 1050. federal seems to do +p right. they really don't push things crazy fast. main reason i went from ranger 230gr plus p (990 fps!) to hst 230gr plus p (a reasonable 950 fps). the ranger just broke my grip on the g21 with every pull of the trigger, the federal did not.

ABNAK
11-28-2012, 20:32
i really don't think you get much over 1050. federal seems to do +p right. they really don't push things crazy fast. main reason i went from ranger 230gr plus p (990 fps!) to hst 230gr plus p (a reasonable 950 fps). the ranger just broke my grip on the g21 with every pull of the trigger, the federal did not.

Not to mention that heavy-for-caliber loads *usually* don't gain/lose as much as lighter and faster loads when it comes to barrel length.

SCmasterblaster
11-29-2012, 14:16
i really don't think you get much over 1050. federal seems to do +p right. they really don't push things crazy fast. main reason i went from ranger 230gr plus p (990 fps!) to hst 230gr plus p (a reasonable 950 fps). the ranger just broke my grip on the g21 with every pull of the trigger, the federal did not.

YOU are a seasoned shooter! :supergrin:

kenndapp
11-29-2012, 18:28
ha. thanks. just a result of puling triggers and hanging around forums i guess.

SCmasterblaster
12-01-2012, 10:27
ha. thanks. just a result of puling triggers and hanging around forums i guess.

You don't just "hang around," you contribute to a rather dry subject.

kenndapp
12-01-2012, 11:39
You don't just "hang around," you contribute to a rather dry subject.

thanks for the kind words. did my internet street cred just jump a few points?:embarassed::embarassed::embarassed:

either way i fell comfortable with plus p OR standard 147gr hst. i think the 1-2" penetration differential we see between the two in gel would be much smaller in real world results. who knows? once you put bone, barriers, tough skin, dense organs, air filled organs into the mix...... the plus p might show a slight edge. i sort of wish federal would just offer one and only one pressure of 147gr....would make my ammo decisions easier.

Jeff82
12-01-2012, 13:45
The OP's +P gel shot mimicked almost exactly the standard pressure 147 HST. I get 1035 out of my G17 with P9HST2 (10 round avg).

The same load gets 1013 out of a G19 and 1041 out of a G34.

BTW, Fed 9BPLE runs 1381 from my G17.

SCmasterblaster
12-02-2012, 12:36
thanks for the kind words. did my internet street cred just jump a few points?:embarassed::embarassed::embarassed:

either way i fell comfortable with plus p OR standard 147gr hst. i think the 1-2" penetration differential we see between the two in gel would be much smaller in real world results. who knows? once you put bone, barriers, tough skin, dense organs, air filled organs into the mix...... the plus p might show a slight edge. i sort of wish federal would just offer one and only one pressure of 147gr....would make my ammo decisions easier.

I am going to try some factory-loaded 147gr loads in my G17.

kenndapp
12-02-2012, 15:46
I am going to try some factory-loaded 147gr loads in my G17.

Between accuracy and shoot -ability I think your going to like it. Terminal performance seems to grow a bit when going "heavy for caliber"..... no matter what the caliber is.

SCmasterblaster
12-02-2012, 18:38
From the photos shown of the 147gr JHPs, they are built for expansion for sure.

unit1069
12-03-2012, 20:50
I'm still not tempted to shoot 147-grain ammo in my 9mm pistols but if I am it seems to me the standard pressure rounds yield approximately the same results as the +P rounds do. So if the price of both (per Internet ammo sources) are the same then it makes no difference which heavy-for-caliber round one chooses.

mingaa
12-03-2012, 21:12
SD 9mm 124 Hornady XTP max powder hand loads. Competition 147 fmj Montana Gold 125+ power factor powder puff load. WSF or Accurate 7, adjust the load.

Shooting major I use the same powder (though #7 is new to the family) with 180gr Bullets (3 options) and 155 Hornady XTP maxed out (1150-1200 fps) for SD.