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M&P15T
11-21-2012, 07:57
These are supposedly some SOF troopers training. Take a look at their AR/attachments, they look really different from anything else I have seen.

Are these not really SOF troopers? Look at the quad rails, I have never seen .mil folks using anything that long.

I see Elcan, Eotech, PEQ-15s.....what else do ya'll see?

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/121120042201-wired-special-operations-story-top.jpg

mjkeat
11-21-2012, 08:03
Those look to be Daniel Defense RIS II's which are often used by special operations. In fact I believe they were the intended market.

As far as what unit, if any, they belong too, who knows.

Presscheck40
11-21-2012, 08:05
I hate vertical forgrips and the cat on the far side is not even utilizing his optics.
And in my line of work one weapon is zero and two is one. I see no sidearms.

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K. Foster
11-21-2012, 08:37
Iíd say itís real training, somewhere They look properly equipped, helmets, body armor. The one muzzle you can see has a blank firing device (the little orange thing). The second guy has regular work gloves hanging on his carabineer, thatís what I used to do. On the negative side, they donít have pistols.
Instead of worrying about whether or not theyíre actually training, why donít you go get some training.:supergrin:

M&P15T
11-21-2012, 08:51
Instead of worrying about whether or not theyíre actually training, why donít you go get some training.

I was simply interested in the ARs they were using, they looked different from anything I have seen .mil types using.

I was never questioning whether they were actually training, which they obviously are.

K. Foster
11-21-2012, 09:28
Noted. I meant to add a smiley face to show I was just teasing. It’s there now.

MrMurphy
11-21-2012, 09:44
Elcans on rifles normally = Canadian Army.

I haven't seen any on US troops except on belt-feds. The rails are longer than standard but SOF guys can get just about anything, having dealt with them quite a bit. Multicam doesn't mean much these days, half the Army is wearing it.

No pistols, plate carriers, rifles are looking a little bare (no 203 or 320, one guy appears to be minus a PEQ-15). Couldn't say for sure.

RyanNREMTP
11-21-2012, 10:47
Their pistols could be mounted on the front of their chest. Could be a police swat team as well.

M&P15T
11-21-2012, 11:01
Just noticed.

No BUISs.

Uh oooooooh.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

mjkeat
11-21-2012, 11:08
I didn't mention the lack of BUIS because I have seen that done by NSA, CIA, and SOF in the FOB.

mvician
11-21-2012, 11:10
the one in the foreground is a M4 RIS II Mk18 variant

M&P15T
11-21-2012, 11:14
I didn't mention the lack of BUIS because I have seen that done by NSA, CIA, and SOF in the FOB.

I'm stunned by that revelation. Which does show real faith in modern optics, including the much-maligned Elcan Spectre DR.

the one in the foreground is a M4 RIS II Mk18 variant

Isn't a Mk18 a shorter barrel, like around 10"? From the picture that looks like it's at least a 14.5", but I could be wrong. Those long rails really have my interest.

bigmoney890
11-21-2012, 11:21
I hate vertical forgrips and the cat on the far side is not even utilizing his optics.
And in my line of work one weapon is zero and two is one. I see no sidearms.

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A lot of SF guys wear their sidearms on their left side, so when they drop their AR to the right side, they can draw from the left without interference

M&P15T
11-21-2012, 11:35
It also looks as if one guy has a sling (single point, mounted to the rail), and the other guy does not.

mjkeat
11-21-2012, 11:58
The MK18 RIS is 9.55". I run the 12 1/4" M4A1 RIS II on my 14.5" LW DD.

It's not a single point sling. You can see the front attachment point on the rail. A single point mount to the rail would cause the muzzle to point up when hanging. It's a 2 point sling.

mvician
11-21-2012, 12:21
Isn't a Mk18 a shorter barrel, like around 10"? From the picture that looks like it's at least a 14.5", but I could be wrong. Those long rails really have my interest.

True, excuse me.......M4A1 SOPMOD Block II system variant

M&P15T
11-21-2012, 12:26
The MK18 RIS is 9.55". I run the 12 1/4" M4A1 RIS II on my 14.5" LW DD.

It's not a single point sling. You can see the front attachment point on the rail. A single point mount to the rail would cause the muzzle to point up when hanging. It's a 2 point sling.

Good Lord, of course it would. What an ignorantly incorrect observation on my part!!!:rofl::rofl:

mvician
11-21-2012, 12:50
HUGE thread on the M4A1 SOPMOD Block II and clone builds


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/541606_M4A1_SOPMOD_Block_II_clone_picture_thread.html

WayaX
11-21-2012, 12:59
This is a picture from the CNN article. Supposedly taken at Ft. Bragg. As to the accuracy...well, how much do you believe CNN?

mjkeat
11-21-2012, 13:02
It also looks as if one guy has a sling (single point, mounted to the rail), and the other guy does not.







Good Lord, of course it would. What an ignorantly incorrect observation on my part!!!:rofl::rofl:

Then why would you even consider it a possibility?


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WayaX
11-21-2012, 16:24
A lot of SF guys wear their sidearms on their left side, so when they drop their AR to the right side, they can draw from the left without interference

huh? That makes no sense. Where are you getting this information?

Usually the rifle is shifted to the left while the pistol is drawn from the right. I'm in the interesting group of being left handed, but shooting rifles right-handed. Having this set-up, which is what you describe as being used by SF, sucks.

cowboy1964
11-21-2012, 17:09
A lot of SF guys wear their sidearms on their left side, so when they drop their AR to the right side, they can draw from the left without interference

Depends on the sling. My VTAC drops the AR in such a way it doesn't hinder access to my strong side at all.

WayaX
11-21-2012, 17:27
Depends on the sling. My VTAC drops the AR in such a way it doesn't hinder access to my strong side at all.

I can't think of any quality sling that would drop and hinder my ability to draw my gun from the same side the rifle was used on. IF my sling significantly hampered my ability to draw my pistol, I would change the sling, not the position of my pistol.

bigmoney890
11-21-2012, 17:32
huh? That makes no sense. Where are you getting this information?

Usually the rifle is shifted to the left while the pistol is drawn from the right. I'm in the interesting group of being left handed, but shooting rifles right-handed. Having this set-up, which is what you describe as being used by SF, sucks.

Two separate SF guys told me this. They both trained themselves to shoot pistol left handed because they preferred to have their rifle on their right (dominant) side.

Makes sense to me, why would you want your rifle on the left side and have the hassle of trying to switch hands in the middle of you needing it? Unless you shoot the rifle off hand.

Matthew Courtney
11-21-2012, 17:43
Many of the snake eaters that I have worked with prefer to carry their pistols on their chest. The two in the photo could easily be chest carrying. A hip holster is inaccessible with their body armor and getting to a leg drop rig is a job for a contortionist.

20South
11-21-2012, 17:47
Elcans on rifles normally = Canadian Army.

I haven't seen any on US troops except on belt-feds.

No Elcans on SCARs? I ve seen them in a few pics, but not all our troops for sure.

WayaX
11-21-2012, 20:40
Two separate SF guys told me this. They both trained themselves to shoot pistol left handed because they preferred to have their rifle on their right (dominant) side.

Makes sense to me, why would you want your rifle on the left side and have the hassle of trying to switch hands in the middle of you needing it? Unless you shoot the rifle off hand.

Again, what are you talking about? Think about what you are saying.

If you go for your pistol, your rifle is out of order, or out of ammo, and your target is close. If you're shooting from the right shoulder, guide the rifle down with the left hand while the right hand goes for the pistol (hip, thigh, chest, wherever). How does putting the pistol on the left do any good?

WayaX
11-21-2012, 20:44
No Elcans on SCARs? I ve seen them in a few pics, but not all our troops for sure.

Elcans have been spotted on Mk17s

20South
11-21-2012, 20:59
Elcans have been spotted on Mk17s

yup i botched it. :faint:

WoodenPlank
11-21-2012, 21:36
Definitely RIS II rails - the color and attachment method (look at the bolts at the rear of the rail) give that away.

ELCAN is surprising, but I have heard more and more reports of them showing up in the field, as they may have stopped sucking as hard.

TangoFoxtrot
11-22-2012, 06:00
Not having BUIS is foolish..IMHO

Presscheck40
11-22-2012, 06:04
Sorry to get so far off topic but in the cases I have seen the shooter will train themselves to shoot a long gun from the support side not the handgun. And for the gent that stated if the sling makes it so that drawing a pistol is difficult its time to replace the sling system not the philosophy of the weapon system is spot on.


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bigmoney890
11-22-2012, 10:36
Again, what are you talking about? Think about what you are saying.

If you go for your pistol, your rifle is out of order, or out of ammo, and your target is close. If you're shooting from the right shoulder, guide the rifle down with the left hand while the right hand goes for the pistol (hip, thigh, chest, wherever). How does putting the pistol on the left do any good?

Hey, I'm not a operator, so i don't know what works best. But it makes sense if you think about what I said as well. In a where you need your gun, from rest, you'd want your rifle. If your rifle were on your right side, you'd be fine. If your rifle were on your left, you'd have to transition the rifle to your right side unless you'd like to shoot offhand. If you have your holster on the right side along with your rifle, things are getting cluttered, and if you needed your pistol, the rifle could/might be in the way. It's a lot easier to transition between hands with your pistol rather than your rifle. And you're not always going to have an out of order rifle if you need your pistol.

I can certainly see your point of view as well, but a chest rig would solve this.

Walt_NC
11-22-2012, 12:23
Hey, I'm not a operator, so i don't know what works best. But it makes sense if you think about what I said as well. In a where you need your gun, from rest, you'd want your rifle.

"Rest" is basically a low-ready with the rifle slung across your chest. This is the position that everyone patrols from. The stock is on your strong side and the forend is on your weak side. All you do is bring your arms up and you're shooting.

I train quite a bit with SF guys and I have never seen the method that you're talking about. It sounds like it would make transitions an overly complicated nightmare. The way you describe it, you'd have to either draw your pistol with your weak hand and shoot from with your bad hand or transition to your good hand. The latter method takes time by adding an unnecessary step and opens up a ton of room for error as you juggle the gun from one hand to the other. When you need your pistol, you need it in a hurry.

Running your pistol on strong side makes transitions fast and straight-forward. From a squared up shooting stance with your rifle, you simply use your support hand to pull your rifle down to your weak side and twist it so that the mag well is facing your 6 o'clock. While you're doing this, your strong hand drops away and is drawing your pistol. Both hands come up at the same time to a solid two-handed grip.

ALSO:
It's important to run your pistol on the same side of your kit as your knife. Should you be rushed and get tied up in a streetfight, the rifle is often impractical and difficult to maneuver when a guy is literally on top of you. If you have a knife on one side and a pistol on the other, the guy that is rushing you always has easy access to a weapon that he can grab. Now you have to worry about retaining your weapons instead of using them. If you have all of your close range killing tools on one side, all you have to do is push off and create space with your weak hand so you can go to your pistol/knife with your strong hand.

The guys I train with will usually mount their pistol on a drop holster on a battle belt for 3 reasons: 1) They still have a pistol if they have to drop their armor for a jerga. 2) Space is limited on their plate carriers. 3) They can just drop the belt and pistol all-together if the mission doesnt call for one - lots of guys just forgoing the pistol altogether these days.

KalashniKEV
11-22-2012, 17:37
Lots of dudes are talking waaaay out of their lane on this one, but these are just Block II M4A1's with Block II accessories.

Nothing really to discuss.

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss5/kisgenp/SOPMODII.jpg

http://spartanat.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/102_0072.jpg

mjkeat
11-22-2012, 19:28
But I train w/ SOF guys at the local range.


Sarcasm

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M&P15T
11-22-2012, 19:35
Nothing really to discuss.

Sure there is. It's very interesting to see the evolution of arms. Learn what other folks have found to work.

mjkeat
11-22-2012, 20:29
We don't know enough about the pic to gain anything.

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KalashniKEV
11-22-2012, 20:53
But I train w/ SOF guys at the local range.


Sarcasm

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I rode on a train with some SOF guys.

They all said they run AKs so they can blend in perfectly with the local population.

We were about to start talking blades but then they had to get off at Pittsburgh.

:supergrin:

faawrenchbndr
11-22-2012, 21:03
Psssssst,.....they don't even have real boolets!

mjkeat
11-22-2012, 21:06
I rode on a train with some SOF guys.

They all said they run AKs so they can blend in perfectly with the local population.

We were about to start talking blades but then they had to get off at Pittsburgh.

:supergrin:

I ate lobster w/ a SOF medic and talked tourniquets while watching Old School. Lol.

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jbailey8
11-22-2012, 21:15
During my second tour to Iraq we did some training under the guidance of some SF dudes as well as a few patrols. Those guys carried SCARs and M9s; they also had different helmets than the ones in the picture.

Funny story, a little off topic, we were eating lunch in their chow hall (it was a small cow hall that made just enough food for them and a few guests) and I noticed that the teams medic (I believe he was a staff sergeant) had his M9s safety in the fire position. The NCO in me thought I should let him know, so I quietly went up to him and said, "Hey, brother, your weapon is on fire." He replied with, "Yeah, I know. That's how it works."..... Whoops.... Roger that..... I'll stay in my lane from now on. Lol

After lunch we were outside and he looks at me and says, "Hey, Sergeant, my weapon's still on fire."

KalashniKEV
11-22-2012, 21:29
When I patrolled with *certain elements*, they didn't have safeties on their pistols at all...

:whistling:

After we were done "operating" we had gatorades and ice cream. I don't remember what they actual meal was, but the chow hall sucked.

Hey, here's a picture of a plane I've never seen before and I don't know what it is:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/11/v22osprey01.jpg

Discuss...

:tongueout:

jbailey8
11-22-2012, 21:41
When I patrolled with *certain elements*, they didn't have safeties on their pistols at all...

:whistling:

After we were done "operating" we had gatorades and ice cream. I don't remember what they actual meal was, but the chow hall sucked.

Hey, here's a picture of a plane I've never seen before and I don't know what it is:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/11/v22osprey01.jpg

Discuss...

:tongueout:So, no *****, there I was.... Lol

M&P15T
11-23-2012, 07:10
We don't know enough about the pic to gain anything.

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True;

It's just a starting point for some investigation and discussion. The link to the M4Carbine.net was very interesting.