Fragmentation - Oh My God [Archive] - Glock Talk

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PghJim
11-21-2012, 13:03
I think some people are more concerned with how the target affects the bullet than how the bullet affects the target. I come from an era where cup and core bullets were all we had and some of them were very effective.

Now, when I watch a video of a bullet test in some kind of gel you can almost see the tester shaking his head in disgust when he find a bullet fragment in the track, or heaven forbid, some jacket separation. Even tnoutdoors9 is guilty of some of this.

Yes, a 9mm BPLE does fragment, but people should be commenting more on the devastating damage to the gel. I was searching for a video of a gel test using a Federal or Remington 125gr. SJHP 357 Magnum. I could not find one and wonder why. I did find a test of a 125gr 357 magnum with a cup and core bullet. As the tester poked through the shredded gel, he kept saying, "and there is another fragment". So what, look what it did.

I would pay to see a 357 sig test with Corbon bullets or DT 125gr Sierra's and 115gr Noslers.

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2012, 13:05
I think some people are more concerned with how the target affects the bullet than how the bullet affects the target. I come from an era where cup and core bullets were all we had and some of them were very effective.

Now, when I watch a video of a bullet test in some kind of gel you can almost see the tester shaking his head in disgust when he find a bullet fragment in the track, or heaven forbid, some jacket separation. Even tnoutdoors9 is guilty of some of this.

Yes, a 9mm BPLE does fragment, but people should be commenting more on the devastating damage to the gel. I was searching for a video of a gel test using a Federal or Remington 125gr. SJHP 357 Magnum. I could not find one and wonder why. I did find a test of a 125gr 357 magnum with a cup and core bullet. As the tester poked through the shredded gel, he kept saying, "and there is another fragment". So what, look what it did.

Got a link to a video? :cool:

fredj338
11-21-2012, 14:22
Fragmentation isn't bad, as long as there is enough mass left to reach vitals. If that happens, then fragmentation will create a larger perm wound channel. Why the 357mag as long been an efective fight stopper w/ proper bullets.

uz2bUSMC
11-21-2012, 14:35
I don't mind frag and I agree with Fred and Jim. People have been taught for so long that handguns are nothing but hole punchers so frag must be a terrible thing...I don't think so and appaerntly, neither does a whole lotta people who have been smashed by the .357 mag's famous 125.

cowboy1964
11-21-2012, 14:36
Keep in mind none of these tests simulate hitting hard objects. Bones, buttons, objects in pockets, etc. Fragmentation and jacket separation is very problematic. And if you're shooting through barriers, it's REALLY problematic.

Also, most of the nasty damage is in the first 4-5". Fine maybe for a front-on shot but a real problem on an oblique shot like through an arm.

The 9BPLE is a great 9mm round but it's not my first choice.

Berto
11-21-2012, 14:37
As long as it gets to where it needs to go, it can leave a trail of slime as far as I'm concerned.

4949shooter
11-21-2012, 14:52
The .357 magnum 125 grain is king of the hill, and it fragments. Fragmentation can be a good thing, as long as the bullet penetrates enough.

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2012, 15:35
The .357 magnum 125 grain is king of the hill, and it fragments. Fragmentation can be a good thing, as long as the bullet penetrates enough.

You got that right. The .357 125gr SJHP drops the felon 95% of the time with one shot.

dpadams6
11-21-2012, 16:02
I think some people are more concerned with how the target affects the bullet than how the bullet affects the target. I come from an era where cup and core bullets were all we had and some of them were very effective.

Now, when I watch a video of a bullet test in some kind of gel you can almost see the tester shaking his head in disgust when he find a bullet fragment in the track, or heaven forbid, some jacket separation. Even tnoutdoors9 is guilty of some of this.

Yes, a 9mm BPLE does fragment, but people should be commenting more on the devastating damage to the gel. I was searching for a video of a gel test using a Federal or Remington 125gr. SJHP 357 Magnum. I could not find one and wonder why. I did find a test of a 125gr 357 magnum with a cup and core bullet. As the tester poked through the shredded gel, he kept saying, "and there is another fragment". So what, look what it did.

I would pay to see a 357 sig test with Corbon bullets or DT 125gr Sierra's and 115gr Noslers.
Or how bout 5.56 ammo? Massive fragmentation with many loads and awesome stopping power.

PghJim
11-21-2012, 16:02
You got that right. The .357 125gr SJHP drops the felon 95% of the time with one shot.

I do not have the link, but it was a CorBon round. It should be easy to look up on YouTube.

dougader
11-21-2012, 16:38
I will say, though, that IME those Sierra 125's frag a lot more than the Federal 357 mag 125 grain jhp bullets. Even the Sierra 140's come apart when loaded up.

I think there's a fine balance, kind of what Fred is saying, where we need to have sufficient penetration and then the frags along the bullet path make for a more significant permanent wound channel.

fastbolt
11-21-2012, 16:43
I think some people are more concerned with how the target affects the bullet than how the bullet affects the target. I come from an era where cup and core bullets were all we had and some of them were very effective.

I agree.

I remember when I attended a couple of wound ballistics seminars some years ago. One of the morgue x-rays available involved a deceased suspect who had been shot with a 125gr .357 Magnum. The wounding and bullet path revealed in the x-ray showed a lot of damage, including a fair amount of fragmentation. The fragmentation was considered to have added to the wounding and tissue damage.

The penetration for that shot, in that shooting situation, was apparently sufficient. However, the lecturer commented that he felt the use of the slightly heavier 140-145gr hollowpoint loads available in .357 Magnum (back in the heyday of service revolvers) seemed to show that the wounding & tissue damage effects of the 125gr Magnum loads could be carried even deeper into a human body using the slightly heavier JHP's.

PghJim
11-21-2012, 16:47
I will say, though, that IME those Sierra 125's frag a lot more than the Federal 357 mag 125 grain jhp bullets. Even the Sierra 140's come apart when loaded up.

I think there's a fine balance, kind of what Fred is saying, where we need to have sufficient penetration and then the frags along the bullet path make for a more significant permanent wound channel.

I ran a side by side comparison of Remington 357 mag 125gr SJHP and DT 125 gr 357 sig Sierra's into wet pack. Both dumped the same energy as far as damage to the jugs, both fragmented the same with about 75 grains of core going on to the back of the third jug. The diameter's of the 75 grain core where in the high 0.50's. I did a post on the test a while back.

unit1069
11-21-2012, 18:21
Ballistics and its effects on the human body/myriad scenarios is an inexact science. It seems to me that with the creation of the .357 Magnum the science and art of effective handgun rounds achieve harmony.

Fragmenting rounds appear to work great in .357 Magnum but not so well in other calibers where bullet integrity yields better and more consistent results. I think of 9BPLE as a mini-Magnum that mimics the .357 Magnum in some respects, but it will never play in the same ballpark. I do own some 9BPLE and won't worry about carrying it for self-defense but from what I know I will stick with 124-grain ammo that doesn't fragment.

intecooler
11-22-2012, 08:58
I gave him the numbers for the Federal and Remington 125's and he plans on doing them:

http://youtu.be/Bz2emq5zCLs

Their is a video on YouTube of a Doctor's study and presentation on wounding and effectiveness of different rounds. Fragmentation did more damage to blood vessels than a pretty hollow point.

4949shooter
11-22-2012, 09:10
Good video. That is some nasty stuff. I would hate to be an ER doctor trying to remove all those fragments from someone.

PghJim
11-22-2012, 10:41
That was the video I was referring to where the tester kept pointing out the fragmentation. I do not care if the bullet had only penetrated 11" the massive damage is the story not necessarily the 13.5" of penetration. If you look at some of the testing tnoutdoors9 has done with the 357 magnum in 125gr GD and PDX1 (both bonded), and you will see that this cup and core bullet from Corbon did significantly more damage to the gel. It's final diameter was not as great, but who cares. As I recall the GD went over 16" of penetration and did very little damage. Between the three, I would reach for the Corbon.

ABNAK
11-22-2012, 15:00
That video shows Cor Bon's own in-house manufactured bullet. I'll wager you'd see similar results with their 357Sig bullet that they make as long as the velocity was ~ 1400fps.

SDGlock23
11-22-2012, 19:00
I'm fine with some fragmenting as long as it doesn't adversely effect penetration. Not all fragmenting bullets fail to penetrate deeply which is often the case with low sectional density bullets being driven too fast.

NEOH212
11-22-2012, 19:43
I'm fine with some fragmenting as long as it doesn't adversely effect penetration. Not all fragmenting bullets fail to penetrate deeply which is often the case with low sectional density bullets being driven too fast.

I agree.

:wavey:

fredj338
11-23-2012, 11:23
Keep in mind none of these tests simulate hitting hard objects. Bones, buttons, objects in pockets, etc. Fragmentation and jacket separation is very problematic. And if you're shooting through barriers, it's REALLY problematic.

Also, most of the nasty damage is in the first 4-5". Fine maybe for a front-on shot but a real problem on an oblique shot like through an arm.

The 9BPLE is a great 9mm round but it's not my first choice.

Again, not if there is enough mass left to reach vitals. There is a big diff in a 9mm 115gr fragmenting & a 230gr 45. There is a good chance that enough bullet mass is left w/ the 45 to even give complete penetration of say a bullet core. Consider a 230grJHP, core weighs about 200gr, so even if the jacket spins off in another direction, larger wound cav, the 200gr core is likey to still penetrate to vitals. So it just depends.
Most bonded bullets expand to a smaller dia than their non bonded cousins. Sure they hold up better passing thru barriers, why LEA prefer them, but in most SD/HD scenarios, it's not as big a deal to the civ shooter, JMO.

9mm +p+
11-23-2012, 17:04
I've personally used and have seen used Federal and Remington 357/125 mag loads, these loads WORK it matters not what the internet commandos say. Some think if it's not the latest acronym whiz bang load that it's no good. Performance is proven on the street not jello,period. The secret service ran 115 +p+ 9 as did the border patrol and both were pleased with it, those loads still work today.

ABNAK
11-23-2012, 21:17
I'm fine with some fragmenting as long as it doesn't adversely effect penetration. Not all fragmenting bullets fail to penetrate deeply which is often the case with low sectional density bullets being driven too fast.

That's an excellent point. A bullet of sufficient sectional density *should* either be enhanced by fragmentation or at least not harmed by it.

Also, just about any cup and core bullet that fragments (frangibles aside) is not going to be a sedate load, i.e. it's gonna be fairly hot. It has a "need for speed".

I remember back in the mid-90's testing bullets into numbered gallon zip-lock bags, filled with water and set one behind the other in a cardboard box. I'd usually put some kind of simulated "clothing" in front. The sequentially numbered bags allowed me to track the bullet and fragment paths as the bullet moved forward. What I saw with loads that fragmented (and back then just about most stuff was cup and core) was that the fragments actually made their own little "slits" in the baggies around the main bullet hole, i.e. a separate, albeit shallow wound path. Sure, it was a backyard ballistics test with water but it showed me that fragments can cut their own limited wound paths and therefore add to the wounding potential.

intecooler
11-24-2012, 10:49
I'm personally not too sensitive to what is in any of my guns as long as it's full and they all go bang. Don't think I can ever recall someone that actually was involved in a defensive situation where they had to actually use their weapon and then complained about being loaded up with X MFG's ammo.

I would try to do the research on what's working in the particular weapon good for it's barrel length and forget about most of the rest.

Chuck54
11-24-2012, 10:56
The old Remington 357/125 "scalloped" HP was just fine!

VinnieD
11-24-2012, 14:57
As long as the round retains most of its weight in order to achieve enough penetration, then some fragmentation isn't so bad. In fact it's probably desirable in a soft target. I think the focus on retention comes from the .357mag's origins as a hard target penetrator. It was intended to shoot through barriers such as heavy steel car doors of its day, windshields, bone, and possibly armor. In this case a round that fragments might break up when it strikes a hard target and not sufficiently penetrate. I think that's why this discussion keeps drifting to .357mag given its reputation as a hard target penetrator, but as it drifts away from police work, and becomes a popular civilian defense round, it's going to be more likely to run into soft targets, and there fragmentation could be a better use of all the energy the round has behind it.

Personally though I tend toward heavier rounds in .158gr to retain some hard target penetration ability. Just in case. Though newer rounds like Critical Duty advertise a design that somehow knows the difference between hard and soft targets and supposedly retains shape and weight when hitting hard objects, and opens up and fragments only in soft targets. Not sure if I entirely buy the idea of a bullet being that smart though.

Chuck54
11-25-2012, 10:17
Beesafe or Glaser safety slugs for me


















:rofl:

Darkangel1846
11-25-2012, 11:45
Good video. That is some nasty stuff. I would hate to be an ER doctor trying to remove all those fragments from someone.

Er Doctors don't take bullets out of people...they stabelize you so the surgeon can take you to the OR and repare the damage:wavey:. Remember they don't always take all the bullet frags out.

Paul53
11-25-2012, 12:50
As long as it gets to where it needs to go, it can leave a trail of slime as far as I'm concerned.

My sentiments exactly. All I'm worried about shot placement. If the bullet fragments after entering the skull, I'll apologize later.

SCmasterblaster
11-25-2012, 17:31
I gave him the numbers for the Federal and Remington 125's and he plans on doing them:

http://youtu.be/Bz2emq5zCLs

Their is a video on YouTube of a Doctor's study and presentation on wounding and effectiveness of different rounds. Fragmentation did more damage to blood vessels than a pretty hollow point.

Great video. It leaves no questions unanswered.