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ADK_40GLKr
11-23-2012, 14:16
Lee single stage press, 45GAP, 200 gn hp

Thought I'd made up a good batch but had a lot of trouble @ IDPA practice with Failure to Go Into Battery, and failure to extract.

I figure I had tried to remove the decapper one time and raised the whold die, instead. I went back to the directions, raised the locking ring, and screwed the die all the way down to meet the shell holder, then screwed the locking ring back down.

Took the caliper to the brass and it seems OK (<0.450). It also drops into the barrel and rattles just a bit. I figure that's better than too tight.

Will also boost the load by 0.3 gr, as recoil was lighter than WWB, and a lot of successfully ejected brass was bouncing off my hat. (from 7.3 to 7.6 gn HS6)

Am I on the right track, or barking up the wrong sapling here?

(Practical suggestions, please? I've heard all the DISparagement for GAP, Lee, and single stage I care to, and you really don't want to be redundant, do you?)

WiskyT
11-23-2012, 14:56
It sounds like it's more failure to EJECT than failure to EXTRACT. That coupled with the other info tells me your charge is too light.

PsychoKnight
11-23-2012, 15:43
Yup, if the charge is too light, even if the case fully ejects, the slide doesn't move rearward the full travel length to then gain forward momentum before making contact with the next magazine round w/ suffic force to push it off the grip of the lips, up the ramp, and also to lock up the barrel.

ADK_40GLKr
11-23-2012, 16:45
Yup, if the charge is too light, even if the case fully ejects, the slide doesn't move rearward the full travel length to then gain forward momentum before making contact with the next magazine round w/ suffic force to push it off the grip of the lips, up the ramp, and also to lock up the barrel.

OK so boosting charge by 0.3 gn will be a good thing. That'll put me up to 7.6 and maximum is 8.0.

I think diameter COULD be a problem also, because, even slingshotting the slide , it has failed to go into battery on some rounds, so....

...tightening down the resizer shouldn't hurt anything, should it?

zippyhuntin
11-23-2012, 16:49
Are you making sure to take the bell out after seating?

ADK_40GLKr
11-23-2012, 17:14
Are you making sure to take the bell out after seating?

If you mean what I call the "Flare", doesn't the crimp in the seating die take care of that?

How would you adjust the seating die, to tighten the crimp?

I have 3 dies:
1. Decapper/sizer (and I usually insert primer on downstroke)
2. Flaring/Charging die
3. Seating/crimping. (No Factory crimp die which I shouldn't need for pistol, right?)

unclebob
11-23-2012, 19:01
Raise the ram run the sizer die down until it makes contact with ram. Insert a case run the ram up and tighten the lock ring. Some people even turn it in to turn more just make sure it cams over with a case installed.
Your bullet seating. Raise the die so that it will not crimp the round and run the seating stem up so it does not make contact with the bullet. Put a case and bullet in the die and run the stem down to the bullet lower the ram and screw in the stem some. Seat the put and check the COL keep doing this until you get the COL that you want. Run the stem back up then screw the die down with the round in the die. Keep doing this until you get the crimp you want. You just want to remove the bell on the case. Once you have the crimp. Lock the lock ring with a round in the case then run the seating steam down until it makes contact with the bullet.

ADK_40GLKr
11-23-2012, 21:36
Thanks, Uncle Bob!

I put your instrux in BULLET format (sorry, bad pun) and I could understand 'em better. I think that'll work for me.

Your bullet seating.

-Raise the die so that it will not crimp the round
-run the seating stem up so it does not make contact with the bullet.
-Put a case and bullet in the die and run the stem down to the bullet
-lower the ram and
-screw in the stem some.
-Seat the (bullet?) and
-check the COL

-keep doing this until you get the COL that you want.

-Run the stem back up then screw the die down with the round in the die.
-Keep doing this until you get the crimp you want.

-You just want to remove the bell on the case.

-Once you have the crimp, Lock the lock ring with a round in the case then
-run the seating stem down until it makes contact with the bullet.

unclebob
11-24-2012, 06:50
Sorry I was in a hurry when I posted that.
Also you may want to try 185gr bullets in the gap. You just might like them better?

F106 Fan
11-24-2012, 08:12
The adjustment of the sizing die is not a negotiable setting. It needs to make contact with the shell holder when it is actually sizing a case. The force of sizing a case causes a slight deflection in the press which might hold the die a few thousandths above the shell holder. The die needs to contact the shell holder.

The procedure of locking down the ring with a shell in the die just helps with alignment.

You will eventually tire of trying to make those adjustments on the seating die. It is a PITA! That's the reason the taper crimp die was invented. Well, there's two reasons: First was to separate seating from crimping to preserve the bullet but second, the taper in a taper crimp die is very likely to be more gentle and easier to adjust than a combination die. This makes it a lot easier to adjust and more consistent over slight variations in case length. An RCBS taper crimp die for .45 GAP is $20 at Midway USA. Lee claims there is no advantage to a separate crimp die because their seating die has the same function but that overlooks the PITA of adjusting the combination die.

If you don't have a case gauge to verify your process, you should have. Sure, you can use the chamber but it's often a PITA to go get the gun, unload and disassemble it, use the barrel for a while, reassemble and reload. A case gauge just sits on the bench, right next to the press. Dillon has the case gauge for $15.

Richard

ADK_40GLKr
11-24-2012, 15:10
Sorry I was in a hurry when I posted that.
Also you may want to try 185gr bullets in the gap. You just might like them better?

No sweat, Uncle. My learning style: I can follow a map a lot easier than verbal "turn at the old sycamore" type instructions. Putting it in bullet form helped me understand it better. But you conveyed your message.

So far, all my LGS has is 200 & 230.

What's your recipe for 185?

Thanks again!

ADK_40GLKr
11-24-2012, 15:14
The adjustment of the sizing die is not a negotiable setting. It needs to make contact with the shell holder when it is actually sizing a case. The force of sizing a case causes a slight deflection in the press which might hold the die a few thousandths above the shell holder. The die needs to contact the shell holder.

The procedure of locking down the ring with a shell in the die just helps with alignment.

Richard

Thanks 106, I tightened it down but will make sure it's all the way before next reloading session.

ImpeachObama
11-25-2012, 15:35
200 gr bullet will run just fine in the GAP. What powder are you using? I missed that somewhere. Also, did you drop your rounds into the barrel's chamber to check fitment?

PsychoKnight
11-26-2012, 17:42
OK so boosting charge by 0.3 gn will be a good thing. That'll put me up to 7.6 and maximum is 8.0.

I think diameter COULD be a problem also, because, even slingshotting the slide , it has failed to go into battery on some rounds


Something majorly wrong with the outer dimensions of your finished round if you rack the slide, let it snap forward and the action won't even lock up.

After seating, in my opinion, the wall of the case mouth should be absolutely straight. To check, I press the side of a loaded round against a steel rule or the rail of a caliper to see if the portion of brass which contacts the bullet is completely flush with each other. Neither a bell, nor inward crimp is desirable. Inward crimp is common on revolver rounds, but on auto pistols that edge of the brass is the only thing that controls the depth of how far the round goes into the barrel chamber. Bell: it will catch and drag on the mag, ramp and throat. Overly crimped: you get mushy headspacing (inconsistence stop point for the cartridge).

Yes, most of us incorporate a separate seating and taper crimping process (separate dies).

ADK_40GLKr
11-26-2012, 19:06
First made sure the sizer went all the way down.
Then installed my Lee Perfect Powder Measure device (or whatever they call it...)
.... It pretty consistently cranked out 7.7 grains of HS6. The bullets are those 200 gn "shouldered" slugs which I seated to an OAL of 1.105. Spec was 1.08 but I thought that format might seat deeper so gave it a little extra space. (that would only reduce pressure, and I just added .4 gn)

I think I finally got the crimp in the right place. I drilled a 5/8" hole in my bench and dropped the barrel into it. Then every round that came out of the press got plopped into the chamber before going into the "finished" tray. At first I had some difficulty removing the rounds from the barrel, until I lowered the crimper about another 1/4 turn. I started saving the rounds when I could "extract" 'em w/ my fingernail.

I had 20 rounds left after pulling the tight ones. Think I'll run up to the range tomorrow AM and see if this batch works.

And will compare these with the G17 range ammo.

F106 Fan
11-26-2012, 20:00
Your rounds headspace on the case mouth which means that the edge of the casemouth sits on a little ridge in the chamber. You should be able to easily rotate a cartridge when it is in the chamber because, if everything is right, you have 0.001" of clearance on the diameter and that little casemouth rim doesn't cause much friction.

Richard

F106 Fan
11-26-2012, 20:04
Your crimp should not be so tight that the casemouth indents the bullet. This is expecially important for plated bullets. OTOH, the casemouth should be fully closed up on the bullet.

So, set the crimp until the long edge of the case is a straight line, particularly in the area of the casemouth. Pull a couple to make sure you aren't indenting the bullet. For a jacketed bullet, it might be ok if there is a slight mark from the casemouth.

Richard

ADK_40GLKr
11-27-2012, 07:53
I had 20 rounds left after pulling the tight ones. Think I'll run up to the range tomorrow AM and see if this batch works.


SHOULDERED bullets don't feed in a semi! :faint:

Most of 'em caught on the feed ramp. edges of chamber left dents in shoulder of the plating. Got about 80 I'll trade to a friend who loads for pistol, and a bag of 100 I'll take back to LGS and swap for RN or HP.

Another lesson learned. "Find what works and buy bulk."

F106 Fan
11-27-2012, 08:28
SHOULDERED bullets don't feed in a semi! :faint:

Most of 'em caught on the feed ramp. edges of chamber left dents in shoulder of the plating. Got about 80 I'll trade to a friend who loads for pistol, and a bag of 100 I'll take back to LGS and swap for RN or HP.

Another lesson learned. "Find what works and buy bulk."

Not exactly true! Perhaps it would be better stated as "SHOULDERED bullets don't feed in YOUR semi". :whistling:

I think it is going to be very gun dependent.

For my G21SF (I know, different gun), I routinely shoot S&S Casting 200 gr LSWC bullets:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/uimages//SS_Bullet_m.jpg

These function in both the stock barrel and my aftermarket KKM barrel. Of course, they also function in my Colts and Sig.

The seating depth is such that there is a slight ring of exposed lead at the case mouth. It's hard to measure but somewhere around 0.030" seems like a good guess. This lead is slippery and that helps the extracting casehead ride up over the round in the magazine.

OTOH, I know absolutely nothing about .45 GAP and the G38. It may very well be true that bullets with shoulders won't work. Or it may be a matter of OAL and where the shoulder is located.

FWIW, the S&S Casting 230 gr LRN also has a shoulder:
http://shop.snscasting.com/images/1224075553294-992031636.jpeg

Richard

ADK_40GLKr
11-27-2012, 09:38
Guess I should have called 'em Semi Wadcutters. Anyway the chamber left some gouges in the copper plating of the shoulder. Here's a few I had left.

Gotta increase resolution, but "you get the picture".

F106 Fan
11-27-2012, 10:27
I loaded some 9mm Berry's one time. I don't think I'll be using plated bullets again. For one thing, I can get Precision Delta jacketed bullets for about the same price - sometimes cheaper. Another thing is that plated bullets are fragile. I haven't seen bullets as torn up as yours but I do know that crimping can cut through the plating.

Richard

SARDG
11-27-2012, 11:04
...a bag of 100 I'll take back to LGS and swap for RN or HP.

Another lesson learned. "Find what works and buy bulk."
ADK- I know your LGS only carries plated bullets but as a new reloader still trying to find your way, you should try to branch out into a type of bullet that has fewer inherent and potential 'issues' than the plated bullet. In other words - jacketed. As a matter of fact, why fight with bullet profiles right now that may serve up potential problems. G30s for instance are allegedly unreliable with SWC; your G38 - maybe, maybe not... but a nice round nose jacketed bullet will just about eliminate any bullet factor in your reloads - including crimping and feeding.

Are there other reloaders at your range that would share some of their (RN jacted) bullets with you? I gladly give a fellow reloader 20-30 bullets to try. It's what - 2 or 3 bucks? Some bullet manufacturers also offer sample packs.

I've been reloading only 9 months, but wanted my very first reloads to work. I started with Montana Gold 147 CMJ and have actually stuck with that except for my Unlimited gun where I load MG 124 JHP (all for 9mil). They aren't cheap, but I prefer to spend my time reloading and shooting my reloads, rather than troubleshooting problems.

ETA: I had so much confidence in being able to find a load with the MG 147 CMJs that I ordered 3000 right off the bat. I think I'm up to 10K+ used right now.

F106 Fan
11-27-2012, 11:37
Are there other reloaders at your range that would share some of their (RN jacted) bullets with you? I gladly give a fellow reloader 20-30 bullets to try. It's what - 2 or 3 bucks? Some bullet manufacturers also offer sample packs.


Precision Delta has sample packs.

FWIW, I have read that some folks have problems using FMJ in some 40 cal guns. Apparently, the truncated cone profile is preferred.

I have noticed that the Federal .40 S&W JHP we shoot is of the truncated cone profile. I certainly hope the Zero version of the 180 gr JHP feeds because I bought 2000 of them!

Richard

SARDG
11-27-2012, 11:42
...I certainly hope the Zero version of the 180 gr JHP feeds because I bought 2000 of them!

Richard
That's the spirit - more confidence, than good sense. :wavey:

ADK_40GLKr
11-27-2012, 12:27
I've been reloading only 9 months, but wanted my very first reloads to work. I started with Montana Gold 147 CMJ and have actually stuck with that... They aren't cheap, but I prefer to spend my time reloading and shooting my reloads, rather than troubleshooting problems.

ETA: I had so much confidence in being able to find a load with the MG 147 CMJs that I ordered 3000 right off the bat. I think I'm up to 10K+ used right now.

Guess it's time to break out the credit card and call MG!

F106 Fan
11-27-2012, 12:42
That's the spirit - more confidence, than good sense. :wavey:
Yup! Been that way all my life!

Still, with the election that was coming up plus the possibility that Calif bans Internet sales of reloading components, it seemed like a good idea to order sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure when we are going to wind up with a pair of Sig P229s. It should be right after the first of the year so I won't need the bullets until that happens.

Better to have them and not need them than the other way around.

Richard

SARDG
11-27-2012, 12:45
Guess it's time to break out the credit card and call MG!
Well, Richard and I are a little extreme in ordering 2K-3K of untested bullets, and finding known good loads for the GAP may be more difficult than for the 9mil or .40 - but yeah, I'd certainly do something to begin loading jacketed. Try PD's sample pack at least.

dkf
11-27-2012, 13:18
Pick up a sample of these to try. http://precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=SAMPLE-45-185JHP

If they work ok for you buy more. http://precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=B-45-185-JHP

They have a 230gr FMJ also but they take a lot of real estate up in the case. Federal loads 230gr GAP loads so it can be done.

http://precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=B-45-230-FMJ

SARDG
11-27-2012, 13:57
Pick up a sample of these to try. http://precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=SAMPLE-45-185JHP

If they work ok for you buy more. http://precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=B-45-185-JHP

They have a 230gr FMJ also but they take a lot of real estate up in the case. Federal loads 230gr GAP loads so it can be done.

http://precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=B-45-230-FMJ
Whatever ADK loads, it should be something that plenty of data is out there for and presents no uh... non-standard bullet profile. (SWC for instance) ADK- at this point you need to consider components that work for most reloaders and most guns AND have data available. Quit shooting yourself in the foot - it's gotta hurt after awhile. :shocked:

The 185 and 200 seem more of a standard for GAP and (although I have never searched) believe will have more data available. It appears that PD has only 185 and 230 sample packs and that their 200s are SWC. As per dkf's suggestion... try the 185 sample pack at least.

ImpeachObama
11-27-2012, 16:33
I just got a thousand or two of 185's from Prec. Delta. It's waiting for me to pick up at the post office. I ordered a bunch of others, so I don't remember what I ordered overall. I usually use MG's, but the PD are less money these days. I have used their 40 and 9 with no problems whatsoever. If your looking for load info on the GAP, I've used Unique and Tightgroup. Totally prefer the TG. Send me a pm and I'll send you some choice loads for 185 and 200.

SARDG
11-27-2012, 17:16
I just got a thousand or two of 185's from Prec. Delta.... ...If your looking for load info on the GAP, I've used Unique and Tightgroup. Totally prefer the TG. Send me a pm and I'll send you some choice loads for 185 and 200.
I'd likely prefer TG myself and it was the first powder I ever used. But Fred (among others perhaps) doesn't recommend TG for new reloaders. The load spread (min to max) is narrow and TG isn't as bulky as Unique - though ADK is single-staging it anyway.

My idea is to get ADK on the right track with a string of successes by using tried and true (and safe) components. Again... shoot more, troubleshoot less.

dkf
11-27-2012, 17:52
Whatever ADK loads, it should be something that plenty of data is out there for and presents no uh... non-standard bullet profile. (SWC for instance) ADK- at this point you need to consider components that work for most reloaders and most guns AND have data available. Quit shooting yourself in the foot - it's gotta hurt after awhile. :shocked:

The 185 and 200 seem more of a standard for GAP and (although I have never searched) believe will have more data available. It appears that PD has only 185 and 230 sample packs and that their 200s are SWC. As per dkf's suggestion... try the 185 sample pack at least.

I agree. The swc would be the last bullet profile I would try to load in a Glock.

The Lyman manual has data for both 185gr and 200gr JHP bullets with a bunch of common powders.(231, power pistol, longshot, wsf and etc) For the price of the PD 185 jhps you can afford to use them for plinking and they are will be very close in length to other 185gr JHPs on the market.

The 185gr and 200gr XTPs are an option that a lot of shops stock. They are pricey per 100 but it would get him started. I started reloading with XTPs, grabbed a couple hundred and went to it. Ordered bulk bullets later on.

ADK_40GLKr
11-29-2012, 15:21
I agree. The swc would be the last bullet profile I would try to load in a Glock.

The Lyman manual has data for both 185gr and 200gr JHP bullets with a bunch of common powders.(231, power pistol, longshot, wsf and etc) For the price of the PD 185 jhps you can afford to use them for plinking and they are will be very close in length to other 185gr JHPs on the market.

The 185gr and 200gr XTPs are an option that a lot of shops stock. They are pricey per 100 but it would get him started. I started reloading with XTPs, grabbed a couple hundred and went to it. Ordered bulk bullets later on.

Thanks, everybody, for all your help!

Pulled the rest of my SWC's.
Built 6 rounds of 7.8 to 7.9 gr HS6 behind 200gr JHP.

Took them out to shoot along with my remaining 200 gr FMJ over 7.3 grains of HS6.

The 7.8 gr loads functioned flawlessly, but as soon as I got to the 7.3's, they cycled fine, but the brass started bouncing off my head.

Got the case sizing right this time, and the crimp seems to be in the right place. It was frustrating for a while there, because the batches of .40 I had made before turned out fine.

I think I've finally found a decent recipe for my G38 with HS6!

F106 Fan
11-29-2012, 17:04
Thanks, everybody, for all your help!

Pulled the rest of my SWC's.
Built 6 rounds of 7.8 to 7.9 gr HS6 behind 200gr JHP.

Took them out to shoot along with my remaining 200 gr FMJ over 7.3 grains of HS6.

The 7.8 gr loads functioned flawlessly, but as soon as I got to the 7.3's, they cycled fine, but the brass started bouncing off my head.


It's good to know that if the velocity comes up, the Glock ejection problems go down. My G21SF has just started with the BTF nonsense so maybe I'll load up a few rounds with higher velocity. It's no big deal to have two loads - one for my Glock and one for everything else.



Got the case sizing right this time, and the crimp seems to be in the right place. It was frustrating for a while there, because the batches of .40 I had made before turned out fine.

I think I've finally found a decent recipe for my G38 with HS6!

Outstanding! Now you're good to go.

Richard

ADK_40GLKr
11-29-2012, 19:09
Now to build 90 (really 100) perfect rounds for IDPA next week.

Patience & consistency.
Patience & consistency.
Patience & consistency.
Patience & consistency.
Patience & consistency!

G36_Me
11-30-2012, 07:36
bullet profile/type may or may not work in all guns.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/lwdad/IMG_2687_cropped.jpg

again, not your gun, but in my G36 the swc on the left (similar to your pics) will NOT function while the swc on the right runs like a dream and is ACCURATE.

The bullet on the left works in my regular old 1911s like a dream.

Both bullets are 185 grain.

Good luck.