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esminbritt
11-24-2012, 07:03
from 147 to 124. I currently carry Fed. HST LE 147 +p. I practice with Fed American Eagle 147. I think that the 147 HST +p is a real solid load, but I am tempted to switch to the Speer 124 +p bonded GD. The Energy is better by about 100 ft lbs. And the velocity is quite a bit faster too. I really like the numbers on the Speer 124 +p+, but I have heard that my G17 wont appreciate that over time. However, I don't shoot my carry ammo often anyways. I shoot the same weight practice ammo to match the weight of what I carry. I ordered 500 rounds of the 147 HST 2 years ago and I still have 7 boxes left. Maybe the Speer +p+ would be OK as carry-only ammo. What do y'all think.

9mm +p+
11-24-2012, 10:10
I have no love for any 147 load, a 124 +p/+p+ will not hurt your 17. Glocks were designed around NATO pressure 9mm which is higher than +p+, I carry only +p+ loads in my 9's and have had zero issues.

Deputydave
11-24-2012, 10:10
The 124+p GD is a fine round. This was our duty load when we issued 9mm and it is still what I carry in my off-duty G19 (or the 124 PDX1). Having said that, I would feel just fine with the 147 you mentioned. 100 fpe isn't anything the the BG is going to notice so I wouldn't make that a determining factor. Neither is the velocity. As long as the round has enough velocity to exit the barrel, reach the target and function as designed anything in excess is just going to affect accurate, fast follow up shots. And accurate, fast follow up shots are more important that a little extra velocity and/or energy.

My sig line goes into more detail. :wavey:

Kentguy
11-24-2012, 10:44
esminbritt,

As Dave pointed out;

Deputydave..."fast follow up shots are more important that a little extra velocity and/or energy."

I agree this is why I only use the 124g bullet for the 9mm. More than enough to "get the job done", accurate and reacquiring your target is very fast.

I don't use +P type rounds in my EDC gun, I also find that unnecessary - other do, so whatever your choice you have the right idea here; "I shoot the same weight practice ammo to match the weight of what I carry."

Shoot up what you have and switch to 124g whatever you wish to shoot. That would be my thoughts.

Good luck.

Glock19Fan
11-24-2012, 11:08
I bought a case of Speer 124 +P Gold Dots (500 for $299 shipped).

This allows me to shoot shoot them frequently, rotate when needed, and lets me keep a little extra stashed away.

I also moved from the 147 grain to the 124. However, my decision was not based on bullet performance, but rather becuase I believe the extra energy the +P rounds deliver make for a more reliable firearm under different circumstances.

uz2bUSMC
11-24-2012, 11:48
How is it again that someone would know that a BG won't be able tell the difference of a 100 more FPE?:dunno:

fastbolt
11-24-2012, 12:27
As a firearms instructor, whenever I get either LE or non-LE shooters asking me questions about ammunition - meaning which is "the best" - I ask them whether their foundation skillset, understanding of tactics and mindset have been well developed and maintained.

Ever taken some of that money spent put aside to spend on ammunition and invested it in some good training?

The specific ammunition that's been used in LE shooting incidents is hardly ever as much of an interesting or important topic when shooting incidents are being discussed among LE in general, and firearms instructors and armorers in particular.

Why?

Because fast, accurate hits on the intended threat target, combined with effective use of tactics and cover, employed by someone who has the necessary mindset to use them, are critical.

cowboy1964
11-24-2012, 12:32
Your follow up shots will be just fine with +P. For crying out loud, it's still 9mm.

I reload and I set my 124 reloads to match the feel of Gold Dot 124+Ps as closely as possible. My guns haven't broken yet.

clarkstoncz
11-24-2012, 12:58
The NYPD has been very happy with ti for a number of years, but they will never get
.40s, or heaven forbid any cartridge with .357 in the name of it..


I like the Double Tap 147 and 124 +P loads if I choose Gold Dots.
http://onfinite.com/libraries/1773746/fee.jpg
a 124 makes more sense from the shorter barrel guns, but I really like
147 in .357 SIG as it's very controllable and has less muzzle blast than
the scorching 125s and 115s.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/dt-147-2.jpg

As others have stated, you are getting a good level of performance with the 124 gr +P.

Deputydave
11-24-2012, 13:19
How is it again that someone would know that a BG won't be able tell the difference of a 100 more FPE?:dunno:

A better question would be; why would you think it does?

100fpe is a very small amount to begin with. It isn't going to knock someone down, no handgun or even (most) rifle rounds are going to knock someone down based upon delivered energy. And it isn't going to make a noticeable difference in damage either along the wound track. And finally, speaking with gun shot perps who were shot with multiple (and differing rounds). None noticed at the time of the shooting what the caliber was, what the velocity of the round or the FPE. They just noted they had a new hole in them.

First consideration: a reliable round. 124 and 147 are both reliable rounds.

Second consideration: shot placement. The 124 and 147 discussed are accurate rounds. The rest is up to the shooter.

Third consideration: adequate penetration. Both the 124 and 147, particular in the bonded bullets discussed offer adequate penetration, particularly though barriers.

Fourth consideration: fast, accurate follow up shots on target.

Fifth consideration: traiing that entails all of the above to be utilized while under duress in less than ideal situations.

Dead last considerations: caliber, veloctiy, energy.

Glock19Fan
11-24-2012, 13:37
My opinion is most bad guys WOULD feel the 100 FPE difference. Just as they would be able to distinguish the difference between a bean bag load from a bean bag load with 25% more energy. More pain = more likely to stop the fight.

I dont think pain is a reliable manstopper, especially with the presence of drugs, but if you can produce higher energy levels, similar ballistic performance, more reliable function, all while keeping the same cost then I dont see why not.

Deputydave
11-24-2012, 13:43
My opinion is most bad guys WOULD feel the 100 FPE difference. Just as they would be able to distinguish the difference between a bean bag load from a bean bag load with 25% more energy. More pain = more likely to stop the fight.

I dont think pain is a reliable manstopper, especially with the presence of drugs, but if you can produce higher energy levels, similar ballistic performance, more reliable function, all while keeping the same cost then I dont see why not.

Having an opinion is fine. But what do you base it on? How many people have you shot? How many people do you know that have been shot, with differing rounds, that can then state that they knew of a difference at the time of the shooting? How many operations have you been in to see the damage caused by rounds and different rounds? Not meant as a flame, but gun boards sometimes have too much opinion and not enough solid, factual information, tactics, training and strategy. And as my friend FB above indicates, most seem to be concentrating far too hard on the wrong things.

Listen to those that are in a position to do the things I've listed above. What are their ammo choices and why? What are their priorities and why? We hold these positions for a reason.

With all due respect. :wavey:

packinaglock
11-24-2012, 14:50
Having an opinion is fine. But what do you base it on? How many people have you shot? How many people do you know that have been shot, with differing rounds, that can then state that they knew of a difference at the time of the shooting? How many operations have you been in to see the damage caused by rounds and different rounds? Not meant as a flame, but gun boards sometimes have too much opinion and not enough solid, factual information, tactics, training and strategy. And as my friend FB above indicates, most seem to be concentrating far too hard on the wrong things.

Listen to those that are in a position to do the things I've listed above. What are their ammo choices and why? What are their priorities and why? We hold these positions for a reason.

With all due respect. :wavey:

Exactly why when you and Fastbolt post I listen!:agree:

greenlion
11-24-2012, 15:19
Having an opinion is fine. But what do you base it on? How many people have you shot? How many people do you know that have been shot, with differing rounds, that can then state that they knew of a difference at the time of the shooting? How many operations have you been in to see the damage caused by rounds and different rounds? Not meant as a flame, but gun boards sometimes have too much opinion and not enough solid, factual information, tactics, training and strategy. And as my friend FB above indicates, most seem to be concentrating far too hard on the wrong things.

Listen to those that are in a position to do the things I've listed above. What are their ammo choices and why? What are their priorities and why? We hold these positions for a reason.

With all due respect. :wavey:

Hang on a minute... you are telling Glock19fan that his opinion is invalid because of all the anecdotal evidence from these supposed experts you imply you are in contact with, but I see no real evidence presented for your opinion either. Can you show us scientific data confirming that people who have been shot with bullets having 100fpe difference cannot tell the difference? Show us the "Solid Factual Information" you are talking about. Keep in mind that anecdotal evidence and single data points are meaningless in scientific endeavors...

uz2bUSMC
11-24-2012, 15:28
A better question would be; why would you think it does?

Well, I don't know...maybe because it makes sense. If you drop an object on your foot that weighs 15lbs from about 6", maybe not a big deal. Drop that same weighted object from 6' and things change. It is literally astounding how people deny physics when it comes to terminal ballistics. In all other things commonly found in life more of a bad thing is worse. Somehow with pistol bullets it's all the same...yea, sorry, don't buy it.

Being that most service calibers are around 4-500ft lbs, 100 extra would would have the chance to stand out...being that it could be a quarter of the total energy expended. 25% tends to be a big deal in most cases with most things.

100fpe is a very small amount to begin with. It isn't going to knock someone down, no handgun or even (most) rifle rounds are going to knock someone down based upon delivered energy. And it isn't going to make a noticeable difference in damage either along the wound track. And finally, speaking with gun shot perps who were shot with multiple (and differing rounds). None noticed at the time of the shooting what the caliber was, what the velocity of the round or the FPE. They just noted they had a new hole in them.

What are you talking about? Knocking people down? Who asked about knocking people down? Did I miss something, is this the action movie forum?

That's good, you talked to a bunch of perps about their bad day. Most critical incidents are surreal to those involved, how accurate would their recount be? I'm guessing they were all of the lucky ones who were heart-shot right in the ER and were able to pull through? How many of those heart-shot miracles stopped immediately? You just say that they didn't know the difference but on the other side of the internet, here we sit with no usable information. Where were they hit, what were they hit with? Have video footage showing what their reaction was, by chance?

It would seem that everyone should base what they believe solely on your experience. There are others out there that have experience, as well. Some of those individuals have witnessed dynamic stops. What's different between your experience and theirs?

First consideration: a reliable round. 124 and 147 are both reliable rounds.

Second consideration: shot placement. The 124 and 147 discussed are accurate rounds. The rest is up to the shooter.

Third consideration: adequate penetration. Both the 124 and 147, particular in the bonded bullets discussed offer adequate penetration, particularly though barriers.

Fourth consideration: fast, accurate follow up shots on target.

Fifth consideration: traiing that entails all of the above to be utilized while under duress in less than ideal situations.

Dead last considerations: caliber, velocity, energy.

Dead last considerations: caliber, velocity, energy? I don't know, I would be inclined to use a 9mm that I shoot slower for personal defense than a .22 that makes me feel like a super hero on the range.

cowboy1964
11-24-2012, 15:30
Anyone that thinks velocity/energy doesn't matter, then why is .380 so anemic? Why is a smaller and lighter .223 moving at 3200 fps pretty effective?

9mm +p+
11-24-2012, 15:33
A better question would be; why would you think it does?

100fpe is a very small amount to begin with. It isn't going to knock someone down, no handgun or even (most) rifle rounds are going to knock someone down based upon delivered energy. And it isn't going to make a noticeable difference in damage either along the wound track. And finally, speaking with gun shot perps who were shot with multiple (and differing rounds). None noticed at the time of the shooting what the caliber was, what the velocity of the round or the FPE. They just noted they had a new hole in them.

First consideration: a reliable round. 124 and 147 are both reliable rounds.

Second consideration: shot placement. The 124 and 147 discussed are accurate rounds. The rest is up to the shooter.

Third consideration: adequate penetration. Both the 124 and 147, particular in the bonded bullets discussed offer adequate penetration, particularly though barriers.

Fourth consideration: fast, accurate follow up shots on target.

Fifth consideration: traiing that entails all of the above to be utilized while under duress in less than ideal situations.

Dead last considerations: caliber, veloctiy, energy.

I've personally seen 147's bounce off of car doors and a side windows, velocity does matter,period. As does energy.

uz2bUSMC
11-24-2012, 15:36
Having an opinion is fine. But what do you base it on? How many people have you shot? How many people do you know that have been shot, with differing rounds, that can then state that they knew of a difference at the time of the shooting? How many operations have you been in to see the damage caused by rounds and different rounds? Not meant as a flame, but gun boards sometimes have too much opinion and not enough solid, factual information, tactics, training and strategy. And as my friend FB above indicates, most seem to be concentrating far too hard on the wrong things.

I can tell that you see your experience as fact, but I should tell you that other people just see it as opinion. You don't seem to bring anything else to the table, IMHO, besides just simply saying so.

Listen to those that are in a position to do the things I've listed above. What are their ammo choices and why? What are their priorities and why? We hold these positions for a reason.

This has got to be the biggest bunch... You know how many instructors I see that don't know what they are talking about? Lots. How many people that have held positions for years and base their ammo or platform choice on good ol folklore? Lots...

With all due respect. :wavey:

I know that post was for him but I interject with all due respect.

Glock19Fan
11-24-2012, 15:36
Having an opinion is fine. But what do you base it on? How many people have you shot? How many people do you know that have been shot, with differing rounds, that can then state that they knew of a difference at the time of the shooting? How many operations have you been in to see the damage caused by rounds and different rounds? Not meant as a flame, but gun boards sometimes have too much opinion and not enough solid, factual information, tactics, training and strategy. And as my friend FB above indicates, most seem to be concentrating far too hard on the wrong things.

Listen to those that are in a position to do the things I've listed above. What are their ammo choices and why? What are their priorities and why? We hold these positions for a reason.

With all due respect. :wavey:

I have plenty of training and I believe I am justified on focusing on the type of ammunition I use. 25% of anything is quite a bit. I do believe pain is a factor in stopping power for the same reasons less than lethal weapons are often used efficiently. Are they 100 percent reliable? No. Nothing short of a solid headshot it. But they are proven.

countrygun
11-24-2012, 15:43
Anyone that thinks velocity/energy doesn't matter, then why is .380 so anemic? Why is a smaller and lighter .223 moving at 3200 fps pretty effective?

why don't you put it in terms of this discussion?

would a ,223 moving 100fps faster than a 147 gn 9mm be more effective than the 9mm?

Deputydave
11-24-2012, 16:34
Hang on a minute... you are telling Glock19fan that his opinion is invalid...

No, I asked him on what does he base his opinion.

I have plenty of training...

What do you define as plenty of training? What type of training?

I've personally seen 147's bounce off of car doors and a side windows, velocity does matter,period. As does energy.

Perhaps an angle shot, but then most any caliber will regardless of the velocity/energy. For that matter, rifle rounds will also deflect of barriers and they have quite a bit more velocity/energy than service calibers. But a 147 is heavy for the 9mm due to sectional density and will penetrate a barrier better than a lighter round of the same construction.

Bottom line, if velocity/energy gives you the warm fuzzies, go for the gusto. I've been in too many surgeries, talked to too many surgeons, interviewed too many perps that have been shot and survived, looked at too many autopsies for those that didn't, tested too much ammo, talked with ammo makers personally, talked with other professionals and been in too many deadly force situations to consider velocity/energy any higher on the list of priorities than I have previously. I prefer reliable ammo, shot placement, adequate penetration, fast and accurate follow up shots and training to utilize the above to its maximum under duress.

Glock19Fan
11-24-2012, 16:38
What do you define as plenty of training? What type of training?
.

Several years of training in the military as well as being a veteran of 2 combat deployments.

esminbritt
11-24-2012, 17:38
Well here's another opinion to add to the mix. It seems like Deputy dave has some chops here that can be learned from. Having some hard data to back it up would be good too. I like data a lot. But I also like to learn from experienced professionals. My OP was just talking about the diff. between the 147 +p HST vs. the 124 +p GD. I've analyzed quite a bit of hard data myself, as we all have I would guess. Wound cavities from JHP .45 vs JHP 9mm is actually very equal in many respects. And the numbers are almost identical. I was just trying to achieve better stopping power (through no hard barrier) and the GD 124 +p has almost as much energy as many .45 rounds. Now, I am mainly wondering if 124 +p+ is really ok for a G17. I have heard that it is not. I beleive I've read something from Glock saying not to shoot +p+ loads. Can anyone confirm or deny that factually. Thanks for all of your input.

uz2bUSMC
11-24-2012, 17:47
Well here's another opinion to add to the mix. It seems like Deputy dave has some chops here that can be learned from. Having some hard data to back it up would be good too. I like data a lot. But I also like to learn from experienced professionals. My OP was just talking about the diff. between the 147 +p HST vs. the 124 +p GD. I've analyzed quite a bit of hard data myself, as we all have I would guess. Wound cavities from JHP .45 vs JHP 9mm is actually very equal in many respects. And the numbers are almost identical. I was just trying to achieve better stopping power (through no hard barrier) and the GD 124 +p has almost as much energy as many .45 rounds. Now, I am mainly wondering if 124 +p+ is really ok for a G17. I have heard that it is not. I beleive I've read something from Glock saying not to shoot +p+ loads. Can anyone confirm or deny that factually. Thanks for all of your input.

I can't confirm that +p+ is ok by Glock but I wouldn't worry about it. Given the frame similarities between all the models and the fact that they handle heavier recoil...I think it will be fine. If it were my gun, I'd shoot the heaviest loads without giving it a second thought.

Adamz04
11-24-2012, 20:02
Several years of training in the military as well as being a veteran of 2 combat deployments.

Thank you for your service! We need more guys like you.

fastbolt
11-24-2012, 20:34
It might not be too productive for folks to get all wrapped up around the axle throwing around things like "100 fpe" when it comes to handgun ballistics.

After all, how that energy performs work may not be as easy to predict in any set of circumstances involving a shooting situation.

People like to include momentum in similar discussions, too, but it's also hard to determine when it's going to be relevant in any given shooting situation, let alone to what degree.

Look at how "foots pounds of energy" can cause disagreements when discussing the force delivered to a human body by a human punch. Different methods of measuring such punching force has been used on different people over the years ... using different punching methods ... and it's resulted in calculated, and measured, amounts of force ranging from as little as 70 pounds, all the way up to over 900 pounds.

There's often even disagreement between proponents of karate punches versus boxing punches. The speed, focus & velocity of a skilled karateka's punch has been described as not involving the body mass thrust of the skilled boxer, and resulting increased momentum for the boxer's punch (not my words, or use thereof, BTW), so some folks have argued that the different punches would result in the force "on-target" having a different potential for damage & injury for each type of punch.

Okay, maybe so ... but let's not forget that the specific impact point of the intended human 'target' is probably going to be a relevant factor. Punch placement, right? Sound familiar?

How about kicks? Kicks may be 4, or more, times more powerful than the force that can be delivered by someone's punch. Once you've seen someone stand there and absorb powerful kicks (and punches), you might start to think that there may be more ways that simple 'forces' may have an influence, and that other factors involved in dynamic situations where humans are struck and injured caan cause a shifting of expected "results".

Once you've seen enough people punched and kicked, and people who have been shot, a prudent person might start to become a bit less "certain" that some of the various factors people like to toss about - like "stopping power", foot-pounds-of-energy", etc - are always going to be as relevant to any and all potential circumstances as a lot of folks might like to think. (Or hope, maybe? ;) )

And yes, I've known my share of firearms instructors who seemingly limited themselves to learning and teaching what might be charitably called a 'required acceptable minimum'. That's life.

Ditto LE Defensive Tactics instructors, too. :whistling:

Having been pursued involvement in the martial arts for just over 41 years (this Fall), I've certainly seen a wide, variable range of knowledge & skill (teaching, and that practiced) among folks who profess to "teach".

That's life.

After more than 20 years of being a firearms instructor, it was more than a little while ago that I reached the point that when someone I helped train started trying to pin me down on identifying the "perfect performing" defensive handgun ammunition, I directed their attention back toward their demonstrated "performance". ;)

FWIW, I've occasionally met an instructor who seemed intent on pushing some caliber, load or bullet as part of their teaching & training. Okay. Their privilege. Not my concern.

On the other hand, I've met, known and have worked with far more of them who were much less concerned about the specific caliber, load & bullet than they were with the abilities, skills and mindset of their students. Of course, it may often be that ammunition choices have already been made for the instructor's students, so they focus on the users.

Ammunition & handguns come out of boxes.

Skill, knowledge & mindset doesn't.

greenlion
11-24-2012, 22:38
Bottom line, if velocity/energy gives you the warm fuzzies, go for the gusto. I've been in too many surgeries, talked to too many surgeons, interviewed too many perps that have been shot and survived, looked at too many autopsies for those that didn't, tested too much ammo, talked with ammo makers personally, talked with other professionals and been in too many deadly force situations to consider velocity/energy any higher on the list of priorities than I have previously. I prefer reliable ammo, shot placement, adequate penetration, fast and accurate follow up shots and training to utilize the above to its maximum under duress.

So from that line of logic does it follow that you use 32 auto hardball for self defense? It penetrates fine and you can get fast followup shots....

You have provided us with personal stories about experience you have with surgeries, interviews with criminals, involvement in ammo manufacturing, etc. I'm not doubting the stories, but we cannot verify any of those. We were asking if you have any actual evidence that a person shot with two bullets, one with 100fp more energy than the other could not tell the difference between them.

You were being pretty hard on Glock19fan for the same thing you cannot provide evidence for either.

Keep in mind, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Tiro Fijo
11-24-2012, 22:53
...Keep in mind, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.


Touché!!! :cool:

Brad55102
11-24-2012, 23:14
you're splitting hairs. The HST and GD are top notch rounds!
i personally carry the HST 147gr.
But i would feel just as comfortable with the GD 124 +p
either round with work just fine

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 05:47
Several years of training in the military as well as being a veteran of 2 combat deployments.

From one veteran to another, thank you and well done. However, this does not constitute much experience in the field of handgun service calibers.

So from that line of logic does it follow that you use 32 auto hardball for self defense?

No, however a round that penetrates deep enough to hit something important is superior to any wonder round that fails to penetrate deep enough to hit something important. I'd rather have a 32 hardball that hits a vital than a 9mm 115+P+ that doesn't exit the arm to get into the upper torso. Caveat here is that 'some' 115 +P+ 'can' pentetrate to vitals if the bullet is bonded thus retaining weight rather than fragmenting. However, I have seen multiple non-bonded 115's fail to penetrate a limb.

In regards to data, I've been putting hard data on this board almost since it started. How much is left in the archives I don't know. It fails to convince some though because they come to the topic with a pre-conceived idea rather than looking at the experience of others. That's fine, they can choose what they like.

You see, the problem is that many are looking for a magic bullet. It doesn't exist. Some get excited about velocity. If they have a round that does 1200fps they want one that does 1250 or 1300. In their mind more is better, when often times the opposite is true,particularly in non-bonded bullets. They find the formula to covert grains to lbs then find the FPE. If they have a round that gets 300fpe they want one that does 400fpe cause they think more is better. Often times these same folks have never been in a gun fight with their chosen service caliber and round. They've never shot anything other than paper or steel. They've never really been under REAL duress i.e. someone trying to kill you. Their use to range conditions and not actual combat. They don't know how to clear malfunctions...under duress. They don't know how to chamber a round with only one hand or the off-hand...under duress. They don't know how to effectively and quickly load a fresh mag one handed or with the off hand...under duress. They don't know tactical and strategic shooting. They just choose a whiz-bang round and think their all set for defense.

I'm not jumping on you or anyone specifically. But there is far more to caliber corner than the usual inane 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 threads. Far too many people concentrate on the wrong thing(s) and then get butt-sore when someone comes along with a reality check. Combat shooting isn't throwing lead at paper. It isn't even competition though it helps. Combat shooting is having to pick up your wounded partner in a fireman's carry, run for cover while chambering a round off your belt (or clearing a jam) and returning fire on multiple bad guys. Combat shooting is being attacked from behind while engaging a threat in front of you. Combat shooting is someone pulling a weapon from under a jacket and having to draw down and shoot them.

None of this make me or anyone else that has been there/done that special. It just gives us experience. Having multiple instructor certifications doesn't make us special, it just gives us experience. Having research that takes us right into the operating room or access to gun shot perps after the fact doesn't make us special, it just gives us experience. And experience dictates conclusion(s). In regards to the 100fpe that has been discussed, I don't give a damn whether the round has it or doesn't have it as long as it is reliable, accurate at combat distances, penetrates to vitals through limbs/barriers and allows fast and accurate follow up shots.

Anything else that doesn't affect the above is icing on the cake. But what I've listed above IS THE CAKE.

uz2bUSMC
11-25-2012, 06:45
.
It fails to convince some though because they come to the topic with a pre-conceived idea rather than looking at the experience of others. That's fine, they can choose what they like.


This is exactly what you do. Actually, you deny other's experience and push yours as superior to boot.

For some one that has all this experience it confuses me how you could have difficulty understanding how Hathcock's rifle failed to stop a target. Not understanding how that is possible for a rifle yet you correlate that to pistols in a few generalized statements in your favored link in you sig line.

You post as though you assume no other in caliber corner has any idea of what realistic training is. 100fpe either way will not take away anyones ability to reload weak handed, fireman's carry, Hondo roll, etc and it certainly doesn't mean that their follow up shots will be any slower then the guy next to them that doesn't train as hard.

Also, as an aside, Caliber Corner is where you discuss the merits of 100fpe +/- and terminal performance, The Tactics and Training forum is where you go for 90% of what you love to post.

4949shooter
11-25-2012, 07:11
Funny thing is I agree with much of what deputydave said in the above post. He is on the money regarding the importance of training, tactics, and gunfighting skills. Where I think he gets lost is there very well can be, and are differences in bullet performance at various velocities. In his mind perhaps these differences are negligable, I don't know. But what I do think is we give our troops and fellow LE the best possible equipment out there. If an extra 100 fps results in better expansion and terminal performance then I say go for it. The extra velocity could very well make a difference, especially with bullets like the 147 grain 9mm.

uz2bUSMC
11-25-2012, 07:22
Funny thing is I agree with much of what deputydave said in the above post. He is on the money regarding the importance of training, tactics, and gunfighting skills. Where I think he gets lost is there very well can be, and are differences in bullet performance at various velocities. In his mind perhaps these differences are negligable, I don't know. But what I do think is we give our troops and fellow LE the best possible equipment out there. If an extra 100 fps results in better expansion and terminal performance then I say go for it. The extra velocity could very well make a difference, especially with bullets like the 147 grain 9mm.

I agree with his tactics, training and especially mindset views but his terminal ballistics ideas, not so much. He readily discounts anyone elses experience if it is not the same as his. Twice in this thread, actually.

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 07:24
This is exactly what you do. Actually, you deny other's experience and push yours as superior to boot.


Nope. I was once a velocity/energy junkie as a rookie. That was a long time ago. Now I realize the priorities and I did so through examining real shootings first-hand as well as research by others that have done the same. And your comment of feeling my experience is superior is unfounded as evident by my statments in my last post. Don't make an issue out of something that isn't an issue.

For some one that has all this experience it confuses me how you could have difficulty understanding how Hathcock's rifle failed to stop a target.

Don't know why your confused, I don't have difficulty in understanding how Hathcock's rifle failed to stop the VC. Perhaps you have difficulty with it? It validates my position that energy isn't the be-all-to-end-all since rifles produce more energy and reach higher velocities than handguns in service calibers. Apparently, multiple rounds from a sniper rifle to center mass failed to stop a man that was probably 120lbs soaking wet. It also demonstrates that there is NO magic bullet and there will be times when you can do everything right and it still goes wrong.

You post as though you assume no other in caliber corner has any idea of what realistic training is.

Not at all. I know quite a few people here have had adequate or advanced training. And we've had many a great discussion here and in other sections. I also can tell those that think they know what they're talking about, but really don't by the way and manner they post. Not aiming my comments to you specifically, more of a 'if the shoe fits' comment.

100fpe either way will not take away anyones ability to reload weak handed, fireman's carry, Hondo roll, etc and it certainly doesn't mean that their follow up shots will be any slower then the guy next to them that doesn't train as hard

Talk about a generalized statement. You're assuming the abilities, under stress, of everyone? You don't know and therefore can't make a statement such as this. Many factors will affect a person's abilities under stress. That's a fact. Worrying about 100fpe is telling me that you're too concerned with the wrong priorities, or you simply like to argue. I'm fine either way, I don't have to use you as back up.

As I've mentioned, as long as it doesn't adversely affect performance under stress all that 'fluff' is icing on the cake . What I've listed IS the cake

4949shooter
11-25-2012, 07:27
I agree with his tactics, training and especially mindset views but his terminal ballistics ideas, not so much. He readily discounts anyone elses experience if it is not the same as his. Twice in this thread, actually.

He definately has a lot to offer. If he were to keep a more open mind I do believe he would develop more of a following here.

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 07:36
In his mind perhaps these differences are negligable, I don't know.

At handgun velocities in the service calibers, yes, the difference is negligable. Now if we move up to the difference between handgun service caliber velocities and rifle velocities then yes, we have something to discuss on the subject. Taking into account that the bullet designs differ as well. Today's service calibers have rounds designed for certain velocity ranges. Bumping the velocity up does NOT mean superior performance. It could actually decrease penetration depth in some rounds with adversely affects terminal ballistics. This is why many light-for-caliber non-bonded bullets fail to have adequate penetration.

Lots of velocity...check.

Lots of energy...check.

Failed to penetrate a limb and/or deep enough to reach a vital due to premature expansion and/or fragmentation...check.

Look, I'm not trying to bust people's chops here. And yeah, shot placement and penetration isn't as sexy as a round making a really big noise and going super-sonic speeds. Things like shot placement and penetration are boring basics. But not everyone knows the basics well enough or they've gotten away from them or they're overlooking them in favor of another factor that has flash, but really little substance.

I can't ever be accused of beating around the bush on this topic. I drill it into my students because not only are their lives on the line, but their partners and the public as well. So if I'm straight-foward and blunt...guilty but with good intentions.

4949shooter
11-25-2012, 07:55
At handgun velocities in the service calibers, yes, the difference is negligable. Now if we move up to the difference between handgun service caliber velocities and rifle velocities then yes, we have something to discuss on the subject. Taking into account that the bullet designs differ as well. Today's service calibers have rounds designed for certain velocity ranges. Bumping the velocity up does NOT mean superior performance. It could actually decrease penetration depth in some rounds with adversely affects terminal ballistics. This is why many light-for-caliber non-bonded bullets fail to have adequate penetration.

Lots of velocity...check.

Lots of energy...check.

Failed to penetrate a limb and/or deep enough to reach a vital due to premature expansion and/or fragmentation...check.

Look, I'm not trying to bust people's chops here. And yeah, shot placement and penetration isn't as sexy as a round making a really big noise and going super-sonic speeds. Things like shot placement and penetration are boring basics. But not everyone knows the basics well enough or they've gotten away from them or they're overlooking them in favor of another factor that has flash, but really little substance.

I can't ever be accused of beating around the bush on this topic. I drill it into my students because not only are their lives on the line, but their partners and the public as well. So if I'm straight-foward and blunt...guilty but with good intentions.

I believe you mentioned prior in this thread you are a proponent of the Speer GD 124 grain +p. I am too actually, and I would rather see my agency carry this load than the standard 124 grain gold dot. Here are the ballistics from Speer's LE website:

http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/handgun/compare.aspx?compare=53618%2C53617

My Italian math says there is a difference of +70 fps velocity for the standard pressure round to the +p version, with an increase in muzzle energy from 364 fpe to 410. Negligable? Maybe or maybe not, depending on who is on the receiving end. As stated, you yourself have admitted to liking this (+P) load. There must be a reason why.

I would rather get hit by a round house punch from a welterweight boxer than I would a heavyweight boxer. Just saying..

I do agree with you that training, tactics, and mindset (the will to win) may make more of a difference than the 100fps for most cops or gunfighters. Though, having all the necessary skills you have mentioned, the extra 70 to 100 fps could make the difference between a bad day and a good day good guys.

As far as busting people's chops, I will be honest, you do come as off condescending here. There are a lot of intelligent people and good LEO's on this forum, who have a lot to offer and can learn a lot from someone knowledgeable such as yourself. Keep an open mind, and we will be able to learn from each other!

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 08:11
I believe you mentioned prior in this thread you are a proponent of the Speer GD 124 grain +p...There must be a reason why.



Simply because this is what I've shot thousands of rounds with over the course of many years when we issued 9mm. Now we have the .45ACP with 230gr GD. Truthfully, I'm fine with either one. I carry either the 124 +P GD or the 124 PDX1 in my G19. My normal EDC (off-duty) is the G23 w/165gr PDX1 though I would have preferred the 180 PDX1. I carry the .40 not because I feel it is head-n-shoulders above the 9mm but simply because I wanted one. And I have a .357sig drop in barrel so I figured I could have a diverse choice.

I would rather get hit by a round house punch from a welterweight boxer than I would a heavyweight boxer. Just saying..

I understand what you're saying here, but would you really consider a 124 GD vs. a 124+P GD as the difference between a WW and a HW? Perhaps a 115gr 9MM vs. a 300gr 454. But then we go back to the subject of how many 9mm's can be put on target vs. a 454 under duress.

As far as busting people's chops, I will be honest, you do come as off condescending here. There are a lot of intelligent people and good LEO's on this forum, who have a lot to offer and can learn a lot from someone knowledgeable such as yourself. Keep an open mind, and we will be able to learn from each other!

Not my intention and apolgies if it came off that way.

Stay safe :wavey:

esminbritt
11-25-2012, 08:51
For what it's worth, I dont see Deputy Dave as coming off condescending. I can usually spot a showboat know-it-all right off the bat. I see D.Dave as more of someone who has a lot of experience and is confident in his findings. Like I said before, data sheets/proof are nice too. But I don't mind good experience-based info as well. And I don't mind someone being overly-confident if they are teaching me something new. I personally know when to be cocky and when to shut it and listen. That's important for anyone who is open to learning. My jury is still out on the 147 +p HST vs the 124 +p GD vs. the 124 +p+ GD. Dave, what is your opinion on the +p+ through a G17?

4949shooter
11-25-2012, 08:59
.

I understand what you're saying here, but would you really consider a 124 GD vs. a 124+P GD as the difference between a WW and a HW? Perhaps a 115gr 9MM vs. a 300gr 454. But then we go back to the subject of how many 9mm's can be put on target vs. a 454 under duress.


Not my intention and apolgies if it came off that way.

Stay safe :wavey:

Well I guess I wouldn't want to be hit by a professional boxer no matter what the weight. Lol..

Have a good day.

Tiro Fijo
11-25-2012, 09:15
...My jury is still out on the 147 +p HST vs the 124 +p GD vs. the 124 +p+ GD. Dave, what is your opinion on the +p+ through a G17?

There is no 124 gr. +p+ Gold Dot. They make 115 gr. standard velocity, 115 gr. +p+, 124 gr. standard velocity, 124 gr. +p & 147 gr. Gold Dot.

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 09:17
For what it's worth, I dont see Deputy Dave as coming off condescending. I can usually spot a showboat know-it-all right off the bat. I see D.Dave as more of someone who has a lot of experience and is confident in his findings. Like I said before, data sheets/proof are nice too. But I don't mind good experience-based info as well. And I don't mind someone being overly-confident if they are teaching me something new. I personally know when to be cocky and when to shut it and listen. That's important for anyone who is open to learning. My jury is still out on the 147 +p HST vs the 124 +p GD vs. the 124 +p+ GD. Dave, what is your opinion on the +p+ through a G17?

Thank you. I don't know what Glock policy is as far as +P+ ratings, though I know reloads void the warranty. Would I have an issue with +P+ through a Glock? None at all. Keeping in mind I'm not talking an insane handloaded +P+. I've run lots of +P and +P+ over the years in testing through G17, G19 and G26 and never had an issue.

I have a box of Buffalo Bore 115+P+ w/GD bullet in the closet. Got them with a gun trade years ago. It isn't my first choice obviously since they're still in the closet. Having said that, if I couldn't get 124's or 147's in standard/+P/+P+ I'd have no issue using the bonded 115 +P+ GD as it seems to consistently achieve adequate penetration.

All things being equal (which unfortunately they seldom are) you would be served well by the modern 147's and 124's whether standard pressure or not. To the best of my memory, we never had a failure to stop with the 124+P GD during our 15 years or so with the round. This is one and multiple shots. Not saying it was a death ray or an instantaneous stop, but none of us were ever hurt because the BG was able to continue being bad. I credit some of this to better tactics being taught and shot placement being stressed over the 'spray-n-pray' mentality.

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 10:11
There is no 124 gr. +p+ Gold Dot. They make 115 gr. standard velocity, 115 gr. +p+, 124 gr. standard velocity, 124 gr. +p & 147 gr. Gold Dot.

I might be wrong, but doesn't Buffalo Bore make a 124 +P+ loading using the GD bullet?

Deputydave
11-25-2012, 10:30
Got curious so I checked BB's website. They list +P+ in 115, 124 and 147.

uz2bUSMC
11-25-2012, 10:37
Nope. I was once a velocity/energy junkie as a rookie. That was a long time ago. Now I realize the priorities and I did so through examining real shootings first-hand as well as research by others that have done the same. And your comment of feeling my experience is superior is unfounded as evident by my statements in my last post. Don't make an issue out of something that isn't an issue.

Maybe you don't see it or maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly so I'll leave it be.



Don't know why your confused, I don't have difficulty in understanding how Hathcock's rifle failed to stop the VC. Perhaps you have difficulty with it? It validates my position that energy isn't the be-all-to-end-all since rifles produce more energy and reach higher velocities than handguns in service calibers. Apparently, multiple rounds from a sniper rifle to center mass failed to stop a man that was probably 120lbs soaking wet. It also demonstrates that there is NO magic bullet and there will be times when you can do everything right and it still goes wrong.

Look man, I understand you formulate your opinions based on your own research and it sounds like you have went to great lengths to be thorough. But, IMHO, you have a very generalized view of some scenarios. The point that the man is 120lbs in the above scenario may have helped him. It is not as simple as "rifles produce more energy and reach higher velocities than handguns in service calibers". Depending on the design of the bullet, even fmj, it's needs resistance to begin it's yaw, the probably wasn't enough depth in that little guys body. It needs to yaw and fragment or tumble (depending on the bullet) to transfer it's energy. Without that, it may become a simple hole puncher. Just because the rifle bullet in this case possesses more energy does not mean it imparted even an amount that could be compared to a service caliber pistol bullet. Nobody here is looking for a magic bullet and I'm pretty sure most know that nothing is 100%.



Not at all. I know quite a few people here have had adequate or advanced training. And we've had many a great discussion here and in other sections. I also can tell those that think they know what they're talking about, but really don't by the way and manner they post. Not aiming my comments to you specifically, more of a 'if the shoe fits' comment.



Talk about a generalized statement. You're assuming the abilities, under stress, of everyone? You don't know and therefore can't make a statement such as this. Many factors will affect a person's abilities under stress. That's a fact. Worrying about 100fpe is telling me that you're too concerned with the wrong priorities, or you simply like to argue. I'm fine either way, I don't have to use you as back up.

No, if I was assuming the abilities of everyone under stress...I would have said it like that. Yes, many factors will affect a persons abilities under stress. I know that, lots of people know. What I'm basically saying is that you are not the only one that knows that. To explain it further, someone who trains harder with a more challenging platform will still have the ability to be roughly the same as someone who trains less. Under duress, a man with no training may rise to the occasion and the one with decent training may crumble, don't know til it's time. All things being equal, the guy with the training... even with his slightly slower followups shots because of his 100 extra ftlbs, will still be the same or better than the guy with less ftlbs and less training.

As I've mentioned, as long as it doesn't adversely affect performance under stress all that 'fluff' is icing on the cake . What I've listed IS the cake

I can live with a degradation of performance, a slight bit. That's why I include energy as part of my choice. 10mm more precisely. I'll take increased energy over slightly faster follow-up shots including the extra 100ft lbs in a 9mm if that's what I had to use. Not everyone prefers your flavor of cake.:thumbsup:

greenlion
11-25-2012, 10:42
Funny thing is I agree with much of what deputydave said in the above post. He is on the money regarding the importance of training, tactics, and gunfighting skills. Where I think he gets lost is there very well can be, and are differences in bullet performance at various velocities. In his mind perhaps these differences are negligable, I don't know. But what I do think is we give our troops and fellow LE the best possible equipment out there. If an extra 100 fps results in better expansion and terminal performance then I say go for it. The extra velocity could very well make a difference, especially with bullets like the 147 grain 9mm.

And that was what his claim disagreed with initially. He claimed that he knew better than another poster, and was certain that another 100fpe would have no discernable effect on someone who was being hit with that bullet. All this other stuff he has been discussing may well be true, but it does not cover up the fact that he has nothing to back up his opinion on the FPE question, just like the person he blasted for stating the opposite opinion.

4949shooter
11-25-2012, 10:57
And that was what his claim disagreed with initially. He claimed that he knew better than another poster, and was certain that another 100fpe would have no discernable effect on someone who was being hit with that bullet. All this other stuff he has been discussing may well be true, but it does not cover up the fact that he has nothing to back up his opinion on the FPE question, just like the person he blasted for stating the opposite opinion.

Agreed but he apologized, so let's take it from here.

SCmasterblaster
11-25-2012, 12:13
I carry WW 9mm 115gr JHP +p+ loads in my G17 no problem. They start out at 1400 FPS, and they group well at 50 feet (one-inch group).

Glock19Fan
11-25-2012, 15:51
From one veteran to another, thank you and well done. However, this does not constitute much experience in the field of handgun service calibers.

.

My MOS does more handgun training than 95 percent of the Army. In fact we are one of 3 MOS fields I know of that have to qualify with the M9 with a Promask, NODS, as well as low light situations (pop up targets, not stationary). EDIT: More so than the MPs I have talked to.

But most of my experience comes from the civilian side. Not to mention 7 years of ballistic gelatin testing.

Glock19Fan
11-25-2012, 15:57
And I still stick with my original statement. I do believe that the 147 grain loads offered are effective, but I still believe the extra energy offered by +p loadings, specifically 124 grain, do offer an advantage.

uz2bUSMC
11-25-2012, 15:58
My MOS does more handgun training than 95 percent of the Army. In fact we are one of 3 MOS fields I know of that have to qualify with the M9 with a Promask, NODS, as well as low light situations (pop up targets, not stationary).

But most of my experience comes from the civilian side. Not to mention 7 years of ballistic gelatin testing.

Well, are you sure you can handle 100ft lbs more?:rofl:

SCmasterblaster
11-25-2012, 17:40
And I still stick with my original statement. I do believe that the 147 grain loads offered are effective, but I still believe the extra energy offered by +p loadings, specifically 124 grain, do offer an advantage.

I tend to agree with you, but I use the 9mm WW 115gr JHP +p+ load in my G17.

esminbritt
11-26-2012, 08:20
So how 'bout this buffalo bore 124 +p+? I have no experience with this round and i know nothing of the company.

Kentguy
11-26-2012, 09:28
If you have not seen this information here is some homework for you about Buffalo Bore 124g +P+ ammo

Start at 6:13 to see just BB 124g +P+ velocity test.

Glock 19 9mm 124gr Velocities & Accuracy with Buffalo Bore Underwood Corbon Doubletap Ranger - YouTube

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=119

Some ballistic & tech information.

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 09:34
How is it again that someone would know that a BG won't be able tell the difference of a 100 more FPE?:dunno:

Well, the BG may notice that his legs stop working when the 124gr JHP severs his spine.

esminbritt
11-26-2012, 09:44
Anybody got any good or bad feedback on underwood. They are 1/2 the price of the buffalo bore. Are either brand made in the U.S.?

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 11:14
Anybody got any good or bad feedback on underwood. They are 1/2 the price of the buffalo bore. Are either brand made in the U.S.?

I think that the UW is made in the USA.

Deputydave
11-26-2012, 11:16
Well, the BG may notice that his legs stop working when the 124gr JHP severs his spine.

Only if it penetrates enough to hit the spine :cool:

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 11:19
Only if it penetrates enough to hit the spine :cool:

Good point. I would think that it penetrates better than the lighter 115gr or the slower 147gr bullets.

esminbritt
11-26-2012, 14:19
I just wonder about what's behind the numbers. I know that thee are other factors that play into penetration, expansion, etc. Such as drag coefficients, terminal velocity etc. I just don't want to be taking a step backward going from the 147 +p HST to the 124 GD +p. I know the numbers look better, but data can be deceiving. i also know that the HST isn't bonded, but it's close in terms of weight retention and separation. Again, I don't plan on shooting through any barrier thicker than thick denim. Not that I wouldn't mind being able to in a worst case scenario (i.e. Zombies) Depuy Dave, what do you think of Underwood 124 +p+ Gold Dots?

unit1069
11-26-2012, 15:58
I just don't want to be taking a step backward going from the 147 +p HST to the 124 GD +p. I know the numbers look better, but data can be deceiving. i also know that the HST isn't bonded, but it's close in terms of weight retention and separation. Again, I don't plan on shooting through any barrier thicker than thick denim.

Of all the 9mm rounds the 124-grain Gold Dot +P is reputedly the most statistically and street cred proven. Whether the 147-grain HST +P is the equal or better round remains to be established. It's the individual's responsibility to test and evaluate various rounds to determine which is the best for his/her particular weapon and for me this includes overall shooting characteristics.

And the HST is a great, consistently-expanding round and I currently carry it in one of my handguns, but there's really no way to predict the circumstances one may face in a potential life-or-death scenario. Lately I've been tilting towards bonded ammo just for the added bullet toughness but the HST and a few other non-bonded ammos demonstrate excellent performance with all FBI protocol.

SCmasterblaster
11-26-2012, 17:11
http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0

WinterWizard
11-26-2012, 17:19
Glocks were designed around NATO pressure 9mm which is higher than +p+

Umm ... wrong. The errorwebs strikes again.

Standard pressure 9mm is 35,000 psi. NATO is 36,500 psi. +P 9mm is around 38,500 psi. And +P+ is somewhere over that, probably different for each brand/loading. NATO 9mm is about halfway between standard pressure and +P.

Deputydave
11-26-2012, 17:44
Good point. I would think that it penetrates better than the lighter 115gr or the slower 147gr bullets.

In regards to the lighter 115, I absolutely agree. As I mentioned in another thread, a 115 that is +P or +P+ can have aggressive expansion and fragmentation. Aggressive expansion sounds good on the surface, however, that can actually degrade performance. First, the 115 is a light weight for the caliber (but not the lightest) when one considers sectional density. Secondly, when a round opens up it will begin slowing down rapidly due to the increased surface area. Think of it as a parachute opening. Simple example, but generally speaking it fits. So we have a light bullet that may (and very probably will) open 'too' soon and (if one considers energy) expends that energy short of anything vital i.e. vital organs/CNS. Thus it can (and very often does) fail to reach vitals, particularly if it has to go through a barrier (limb) first. The increased velocity on paper ups the FPE and looks good, but can actually make for an inferior round when considering terminal ballistics.

In terms of the 147, this is a heavy-for-caliber round. The sectional density would generally have it penetrate further even at lower velocities than the 115 and 124. All things being equal, a 115 +P+ will generally penetrate less than a standard velocity 147 because of the sectional density of the rounds and the velocity thresholds the rounds are designed to expand at.

Caveat here; the 115 +P GD has generally shown to reach adequate depths of penetration will expanding well. The Corbon using a Sierra bullet (and other brands that hot-rod non-bonded bullets) do not generally reach adequate depths of penetration as compared to major manufacturers. As I've mentioned in just one shooting I've personally researched (including being at the hospital with the perp after the shooting), 12 rounds of 115 did not penetrate the upper arm and leg to exit either. In other words, none of the 115's went through the arm to then enter the upper torso. A 115+P+ would probably be great on an unobstructed upper torso shot. But % wise, the chance of an unobstructed upper torso shot is very, very low. The vast majority of the time the shots have to go through a barrier, a limb or a side shot due to the BG's body position. That adds a little or a lot of inches BEFORE getting to the depth of vitals/CNS.

In talking about bullet design, energy, FPE, velocity etc many rounds look impressive on first glance. But one really needs to look at what that round is likely to do from a terminal ballistics perspective. Often times more is less and less is more.

For my money/life I would rather have a bonded bullet of 124 or 147 weight within the velocity range it was designed to perform at. Next choice would be a 115 if it meets the above criteria. Beyond that a non-bonded bullet of 124 or 147 if it meet the velocity range of design. Last on the list is non-bonded bullets that have been souped up. Again, we need penetration and we need an intact bullet that hasn't fragged all over the place short of vitals.

Just food for thought. YMMV :wavey:

esminbritt
11-26-2012, 18:46
This is all very good food for thoughtful selection between these capable rounds. I realize that the numbers on paper don't mean everything. The GD 115 +p+ has the best numbers I've found from a major manufacturer. But I can't warrant going that light. I am new to this game, but I lean toward the heavy for cal. vs the lighter stuff. But it really seems as if the GD 124 +p is a good middle ground. I like that it's supersonic, bonded, & mid weight. I also like that so many PD's issue it for 9mm.

SCmasterblaster
11-27-2012, 08:14
In regards to the lighter 115, I absolutely agree. As I mentioned in another thread, a 115 that is +P or +P+ can have aggressive expansion and fragmentation. Aggressive expansion sounds good on the surface, however, that can actually degrade performance. First, the 115 is a light weight for the caliber (but not the lightest) when one considers sectional density. Secondly, when a round opens up it will begin slowing down rapidly due to the increased surface area. Think of it as a parachute opening. Simple example, but generally speaking it fits. So we have a light bullet that may (and very probably will) open 'too' soon and (if one considers energy) expends that energy short of anything vital i.e. vital organs/CNS. Thus it can (and very often does) fail to reach vitals, particularly if it has to go through a barrier (limb) first. The increased velocity on paper ups the FPE and looks good, but can actually make for an inferior round when considering terminal ballistics.

In terms of the 147, this is a heavy-for-caliber round. The sectional density would generally have it penetrate further even at lower velocities than the 115 and 124. All things being equal, a 115 +P+ will generally penetrate less than a standard velocity 147 because of the sectional density of the rounds and the velocity thresholds the rounds are designed to expand at.

Caveat here; the 115 +P GD has generally shown to reach adequate depths of penetration will expanding well. The Corbon using a Sierra bullet (and other brands that hot-rod non-bonded bullets) do not generally reach adequate depths of penetration as compared to major manufacturers. As I've mentioned in just one shooting I've personally researched (including being at the hospital with the perp after the shooting), 12 rounds of 115 did not penetrate the upper arm and leg to exit either. In other words, none of the 115's went through the arm to then enter the upper torso. A 115+P+ would probably be great on an unobstructed upper torso shot. But % wise, the chance of an unobstructed upper torso shot is very, very low. The vast majority of the time the shots have to go through a barrier, a limb or a side shot due to the BG's body position. That adds a little or a lot of inches BEFORE getting to the depth of vitals/CNS.

In talking about bullet design, energy, FPE, velocity etc many rounds look impressive on first glance. But one really needs to look at what that round is likely to do from a terminal ballistics perspective. Often times more is less and less is more.

For my money/life I would rather have a bonded bullet of 124 or 147 weight within the velocity range it was designed to perform at. Next choice would be a 115 if it meets the above criteria. Beyond that a non-bonded bullet of 124 or 147 if it meet the velocity range of design. Last on the list is non-bonded bullets that have been souped up. Again, we need penetration and we need an intact bullet that hasn't fragged all over the place short of vitals.

Just food for thought. YMMV :wavey:

Great post!

I received info from CorBon recently saying that they no longer use the Sierra bullet for their 9mm +p loading. They have produced their own bullet for the +p loading.

Deputydave
11-27-2012, 11:43
Great post!

I received info from CorBon recently saying that they no longer use the Sierra bullet for their 9mm +p loading. They have produced their own bullet for the +p loading.

Excellent, that would be a good move on their part imo. Don't get me wrong, the Sierra bullet is a fine bullet for what it is and does i.e. expands reliably. If it had better penetration and didn't frag then it would be wonderful. Only other complaint really is the short profile that some guns don't like i.e. jams. I've only had a few in Glocks over the years, but that is enough to give you a moments pause when considering SD.

Would you know what type of round they went to? Hopefully a bonded round. The 115 GD going +P or +P+ seems to reach an adequate depth and opens up like a starfish. Really pretty impressive overall.

esminbritt
11-27-2012, 12:43
I am tempted by that 115 gold dot +p+ but my gut says that the 124 +p has a slight edge. over the lighter, faster load.

SCmasterblaster
11-29-2012, 08:43
Excellent, that would be a good move on their part imo. Don't get me wrong, the Sierra bullet is a fine bullet for what it is and does i.e. expands reliably. If it had better penetration and didn't frag then it would be wonderful. Only other complaint really is the short profile that some guns don't like i.e. jams. I've only had a few in Glocks over the years, but that is enough to give you a moments pause when considering SD.

Would you know what type of round they went to? Hopefully a bonded round. The 115 GD going +P or +P+ seems to reach an adequate depth and opens up like a starfish. Really pretty impressive overall.

I don't think that CorBon has any +p+ loads.

Deputydave
11-29-2012, 09:33
I don't think that CorBon has any +p+ loads.

I was thinking of the Buffalo Bore rounds that use the GD. Sorry, I should have clarified that :)

SCmasterblaster
11-29-2012, 12:17
I was thinking of the Buffalo Bore rounds that use the GD. Sorry, I should have clarified that :)

I'd be interested in a +p+ 115gr GDHP in 9x19,

esminbritt
11-29-2012, 12:37
I'd be interested in a +p+ 115gr GDHP in 9x19,

Doesn't speer make a GDHP 115 +p+?

Deputydave
11-29-2012, 12:49
I don't remember if Speer does a 115+P+ or not. They very well might. If I remember correctly, Georgia Arms does the 115 GD to +P+ and I know Buffalo Bore does/did because I have a box of them I got in a trade a couple of years ago. I believe the BB +P+ hits 1400fps according to the side of the box. GA is probably around 1350fps???

SCmasterblaster
11-29-2012, 14:33
I don't remember if Speer does a 115+P+ or not. They very well might. If I remember correctly, Georgia Arms does the 115 GD to +P+ and I know Buffalo Bore does/did because I have a box of them I got in a trade a couple of years ago. I believe the BB +P+ hits 1400fps according to the side of the box. GA is probably around 1350fps???

I'll have to look up this Georgia Arms. Thanks! :cool:

Deputydave
11-29-2012, 20:03
I got curious so I dug out the box of Buffalo Bore. The side of the box states:

115 1400fps
124 1300fps
147 1175fps

I was just on the Georgia Arms website. The 115 is listed at 1250fps. This is about a 100fps slower than I remember their 115 doing in the past, however, that is a respectable speed. It doesn't list GD specifically, they are calling it a Speer bonded unicore HP. Looks like the GD though so perhaps they've had to change the name? Anyway, a 115 bonded round doing 1250 is plenty and should allow adequate penetration/expansion. $24 for box of 50 or $47 for a box of 100. Not bad actually.

I didn't see a velocity on the Speer website.

Tiro Fijo
11-29-2012, 20:39
I am tempted by that 115 gold dot +p+ but my gut says that the 124 +p has a slight edge. over the lighter, faster load.


There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the Speer 115 gr., 115 gr. +p+, 124 gr. & 124 gr. +p in FBI 4 layer denim/calibrated gel tests. That said, I like the Speer 115 gr. +p+ and have shot several thousand in my time. I get about 1,300 fps in my G19 with them and they are, like Fed BPLE & Win. RA9115HP+, extremely accurate.

SCmasterblaster
12-01-2012, 10:11
There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the Speer 115 gr., 115 gr. +p+, 124 gr. & 124 gr. +p in FBI 4 layer denim/calibrated gel tests. That said, I like the Speer 115 gr. +p+ and have shot several thousand in my time. I get about 1,300 fps in my G19 with them and they are, like Fed BPLE & Win. RA9115HP+, extremely accurate.

I chronoed WW 115gr JHP +p+ out of my trusty G17 and I got just over 1400 FPS. It is my CCW load for sure here in snowy VT.