A fundamental question about taxation [Archive] - Glock Talk

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certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 14:10
Is money best in the hands of government or citizens?


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whoflungdo
11-26-2012, 14:12
My money is best if it's in my hands. Your money.. Well, I don't care what you do with your money...

oldgraywolf
11-26-2012, 14:15
How do you think politicians would answer that, you know, the ones making the laws?

Seriously, all taxation is forced redistribution of income. That's not to say some of it isn't necessary for the functioning of society, but it's still forced redistribution.

exmdshooter
11-26-2012, 14:18
This is a trick question, right? No? OK. Money is best in the hands of those who earned it. It's theirs, after all. They worked for it. They (for the most part) didn't take it at gunpoint.

The government never "earned" a dime... they just take what other people earn by the sweat of their brows (or minds).

So... do you wanna keep your "stuff" or have it taken away by force? Substitute "money" for "stuff" and the answer will be obvious.

Now, clearly there are some legitimate functions of government that take money to perform, so some minimal level of taxation can be justified. We left that sheet in the dust decades ago. I'm just sayin' :whistling:

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 14:21
This is a trick question, right? No? OK. Money is best in the hands of those who earned it. It's theirs, after all. They worked for it. They (for the most part) didn't take it at gunpoint.

The government never "earned" a dime... they just take what other people earn by the sweat of their brows (or minds).

So... do you wanna keep your "stuff" or have it taken away by force? Substitute "money" for "stuff" and the answer will be obvious.

Now, clearly there are some legitimate functions of government that take money to perform, so some minimal level of taxation can be justified. We left that sheet in the dust decades ago. I'm just sayin' :whistling:

But does it benefit you more for your neighbor to keep his money or for the government to seize it and redirect it?


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427
11-26-2012, 14:21
Is money best in the hands of government or citizens?


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Nobody knows how to spend my money like I do.

LSUAdman
11-26-2012, 15:47
But does it benefit you more for your neighbor to keep his money or for the government to seize it and redirect it?


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Neither. Obama built that - neither you nor your neighbor built ****.

Ruble Noon
11-26-2012, 15:48
Is money best in the hands of government or citizens?


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Good fishing CF. I'll check back and see what you catch.

jame
11-26-2012, 15:58
Good fishing CF. I'll check back and see what you catch.

+1

This should be fun to watch.

m51
11-26-2012, 16:29
Is money best in the hands of government or citizens?


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For the love of God, please give this up. You make my hair hurt!!

itisbruno
11-26-2012, 16:34
My money is best in my hands.

Frank's tablet is much more fun in the hands that it is in.


:supergrin:

Glock20 10mm
11-26-2012, 16:37
Taxes are a method of enslavement and control. Period, sadly we accept this yoke with an occasional bleat here and there.

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 16:38
For the love of God, please give this up. You make my hair hurt!!

Rub a little salve on that hind teet. It'll be fine

jtull7
11-26-2012, 18:10
Citizens would probably do a good job with police and fire protection functions. And air traffic control. And building highways, dams, and lakes. And don't forget regulating the banksters and Wall Street fraudsters.

And, don't even think about accusing me of being a liberal, socialist, Obama-loving hippie.

Atlas
11-26-2012, 18:17
He who creates wealth through the power of his mind and will is inherently more capable than anyone else of applying that wealth for positive and productive uses.
Its self-evident.

Andy123
11-26-2012, 18:32
Your money isn't safe in either place. Send it to me for safe keeping.

Gallium
11-26-2012, 18:47
It depends. Money in the hands of citizens would have never fostered "the internet" or the "interstate" or "the military".

My biggest gripe is not that I have to pay taxes, it is that I have zero say in how my tax dollars are allocated, and that there are so many pet programs that are seemingly untouchable.

Outside of very large projects (and my opinion is, .gov can borrow money to fund these, then levy a USE tax), money I earn is best allocated by me.

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 19:10
It depends. Money in the hands of citizens would have never fostered "the internet" or the "interstate" or "the military".

My biggest gripe is not that I have to pay taxes, it is that I have zero say in how my tax dollars are allocated, and that there are so many pet programs that are seemingly untouchable.

Outside of very large projects (and my opinion is, .gov can borrow money to fund these, then levy a USE tax), money I earn is best allocated by me.

Without derailing into the merit of individual infrastructure-type programs I think most everyone agrees that there are legitimate government functions. However, when we get to the point of the current debate we're no longer even discussing those when talking about taxation.

Today, there is no correlation between tax revenue and government spending. The government spends what it will spend and collects more or less what it will collect, regardless of the details. Taxes no longer fund common use infrastructure. Those items are funded with debt.

The tax code today is used purely for social engineering and power accumulation. It is the one real string that the government can pull that will make people dance. Spending and debt have reached the point that no level of taxation can fund them.

So the point of the thread is to ask that basic question and explore why, exactly, certain factions believe that anyone should pay more in taxes and, if they do, who or what that benefits.

427
11-26-2012, 19:14
Without derailing into the merit of individual infrastructure-type programs I think most everyone agrees that there are legitimate government functions. However, when we get to the point of the current debate we're no longer even discussing those when talking about taxation.

Today, there is no correlation between tax revenue and government spending. The government spends what it will spend and collects more or less what it will collect, regardless of the details. Taxes no longer fund common use infrastructure. Those items are funded with debt.

The tax code today is used purely for social engineering and power accumulation. It is the one real string that the government can pull that will make people dance. Spending and debt have reached the point that no level of taxation can fund them.

So the point of the thread is to ask that basic question and explore why, exactly, certain factions believe that anyone should pay more in taxes and, if they do, who or what that benefits.

Why didn't you put your point in the OP instead of asking a question that has little to do with your point?:dunno:

.264 magnum
11-26-2012, 19:23
Is money best in the hands of government or citizens?


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It's likely more base than that. I think Marx was correct in his assertion that broad based progressive income taxes sap the life out of the investor/entrepreneurial class.

My guess is that even Marx never dreamed of the blizzard of taxes/fees/levies/surcharges the modern American faces.

.264 magnum
11-26-2012, 19:26
It depends. Money in the hands of citizens would have never fostered "the internet" or the "interstate" or "the military".

My biggest gripe is not that I have to pay taxes, it is that I have zero say in how my tax dollars are allocated, and that there are so many pet programs that are seemingly untouchable.

Outside of very large projects (and my opinion is, .gov can borrow money to fund these, then levy a USE tax), money I earn is best allocated by me.

What?
Private citizens throughout antiquity funded private armies. Until very recently a private mail service ran from Italy to the guts of Europe and it had been in service since Roman times with a few blips along the way.

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 19:26
Why didn't you put your point in the OP instead of asking a question that has little to do with your point?:dunno:

Fair enough but I don't see how they don't fit together. This whole "fiscal cliff" nonsense got me thinking.

A fundamental principle I believe in is that resources/money are best managed by the person who owns them. He/She will consider all available options and make the best choice. When he does that, everyone benefits because resources are being used most efficiently.

On the other hand, government will expend resources along political lines, mostly to benefit politicians, and thereby make inefficient use of resources. Government can't grow the pie, it can only eat it.

Therefore, since taxation is no longer about funding legitimate government functions and common good "works" (like roads, bridges and dams), it begs the question why anyone should pay more of them? What is the point? Aren't we all ultimately better off if that money remains in the hands of private citizens creating more wealth and growing the pie?

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 19:31
The myth of a wealthy person sitting on piles of cash is just that -- a myth. People put money to work. They either invest it, loan it or spend it. All 3 are legitimate uses and benefit others greatly.

Why is it better to have government take it away from him?

Gallium
11-26-2012, 19:40
What?
Private citizens throughout antiquity funded private armies. Until very recently a private mail service ran from Italy to the guts of Europe and it had been in service since Roman times with a few blips along the way.


Which ones sir? How were they funded? Were those populations agglutinated in densely packed urban areas?

Are we living in antiquity now? No. The scale of raising an army for "The United States of America" and one for the size of a much less dense Great Britain are far different.

What you have presented are excellent exceptions to the norm. I have not argued that outliers, noise and/or things that are some great number of SDs away.

:cool:

Atomic Punk
11-26-2012, 19:42
But does it benefit you more for your neighbor to keep his money or for the government to seize it and redirect it?


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a better way to put that may be. how does it help you if your neighbor ( or the rich ) pay more in taxs?

Gallium
11-26-2012, 19:47
The myth of a wealthy person sitting on piles of cash is just that -- a myth. People put money to work. They either invest it, loan it or spend it. All 3 are legitimate uses and benefit others greatly.

Why is it better to have government take it away from him?

Wealth is relative. I do know folks that have what I would consider "piles of cash" (*$175k in liquid accounts) - and still fret about the same things I fret about, and I have maybe 1/10th of that in liquid accounts, and the guy that has $175 in his account scrambles like I scramble all the same.



*Note, I made no mention of other financial instruments.

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 19:53
a better way to put that may be. how does it help you if your neighbor ( or the rich ) pay more in taxs?

That's a great way to put it. Thanks for adding. Hopefully someone will attempt an answer.

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 20:06
Wealth is relative. I do know folks that have what I would consider "piles of cash" (*$175k in liquid accounts) - and still fret about the same things I fret about, and I have maybe 1/10th of that in liquid accounts, and the guy that has $175 in his account scrambles like I scramble all the same.



*Note, I made no mention of other financial instruments.

We could easily derail into that discussion again and it would be fun and provide Rabbi with hours of entertainment :supergrin: but it wouldn't really get to the heart of the discussion.

.264 magnum
11-26-2012, 20:07
Which ones sir? How were they funded? Were those populations agglutinated in densely packed urban areas?

Are we living in antiquity now? No. The scale of raising an army for "The United States of America" and one for the size of a much less dense Great Britain are far different.

What you have presented are excellent exceptions to the norm. I have not argued that outliers, noise and/or things that are some great number of SDs away.

:cool:

I know and generally agree with you. In a Gene Rodenberry kind of way, given the world we live in, we must aggregate monies for collective uses.

Ruble Noon
11-26-2012, 20:22
It depends. Money in the hands of citizens would have never fostered "the internet" or the "interstate" or "the military".

My biggest gripe is not that I have to pay taxes, it is that I have zero say in how my tax dollars are allocated, and that there are so many pet programs that are seemingly untouchable.

Outside of very large projects (and my opinion is, .gov can borrow money to fund these, then levy a USE tax), money I earn is best allocated by me.

The Golden Gate bridge was built with private sector funds.

certifiedfunds
11-26-2012, 20:28
The Golden Gate bridge was built with private sector funds.

Productive Sector funds.

Lets face it, every bridge has been built with productive sector funds.

Ruble Noon
11-26-2012, 20:47
Productive Sector funds.

Lets face it, every bridge has been built with productive sector funds.

For sure. The Govt. just redistributes what they have confiscated.

NEOH212
11-26-2012, 20:57
In a nation where the Government doesn't work as it should and in which it's Government is being elected by those that don't work, it really doesn't matter anymore.

All either would do is waste it on stupid things, not use it on what is needed, and keep wanting more and in the process, put a larger strain on those that work their asses off and earn it.

I have no problem paying my share of taxes but it's getting ridiculous and I'm tired of supporting the low life parasite sloth.

Something has to change and damn soon!

Gallium
11-26-2012, 22:15
The Golden Gate bridge was built with private sector funds.

I concur. Still these are exceptions, like albino deer or honest politicians. :wavey:

G17Jake
11-26-2012, 22:17
Without derailing into the merit of individual infrastructure-type programs I think most everyone agrees that there are legitimate government functions. However, when we get to the point of the current debate we're no longer even discussing those when talking about taxation.

Today, there is no correlation between tax revenue and government spending. The government spends what it will spend and collects more or less what it will collect, regardless of the details. Taxes no longer fund common use infrastructure. Those items are funded with debt.

The tax code today is used purely for social engineering and power accumulation. It is the one real string that the government can pull that will make people dance. Spending and debt have reached the point that no level of taxation can fund them.

So the point of the thread is to ask that basic question and explore why, exactly, certain factions believe that anyone should pay more in taxes and, if they do, who or what that benefits.

Which is why we will not have a simplified tax code.

Paul53
11-27-2012, 01:26
But does it benefit you more for your neighbor to keep his money or for the government to seize it and redirect it?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Suppose it were left up to each citizen to contract for his own police and fire protection. Or to contract for their part of national defense. Naturally some wouldn't, and would be a burden on the rest of us. This what has happened with our healthcare system. These are simplistic, and will start many arguments I suppose. But assuming your OP wasn't trolling, here's a basic answer.

certifiedfunds
11-27-2012, 05:42
Suppose it were left up to each citizen to contract for his own police and fire protection. Or to contract for their part of national defense. Naturally some wouldn't, and would be a burden on the rest of us. This what has happened with our healthcare system. These are simplistic, and will start many arguments I suppose. But assuming your OP wasn't trolling, here's a basic answer.

But federal taxes don't pay for any of that. I believe I stated that rather clearly upthread.

We aren't talking about paying for basic infrastructure and services.

Sam Spade
11-27-2012, 05:55
It can be argued that the tax code has a secondary function of encouraging/discouraging behavior that society as a whole deems important.

Do you believe that home owners are better for the community than renters? Give a tax break on interest. Do you believe that smoking puts anundue burden on the health care system? Tax cigarettes.

I'm not totally sold on social engineering through taxation, but only because I don't like the engineers. If *I* ran it like a little fief, it might be different.

certifiedfunds
11-27-2012, 06:02
It can be argued that the tax code has a secondary function of encouraging/discouraging behavior that society as a whole deems important.

Do you believe that home owners are better for the community than renters? Give a tax break on interest. Do you believe that smoking puts anundue burden on the health care system? Tax cigarettes.

I'm not totally sold on social engineering through taxation, but only because I don't like the engineers. If *I* ran it like a little fief, it might be different.

:rofl: C'mon Sam, all engineers aren't bad.

I'm suggesting that this is the primary function of the tax code today, only that it isn't necessarily what society as a whole thinks is important but rather what politicians can use to gather power.

Atlas
11-27-2012, 06:56
... If *I* ran it like a little fief, it might be different.

Or instead no one "runs it"...

Government performs the correct role of government and society decides social behavior.

Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of range ammo.

exmdshooter
11-27-2012, 07:09
But does it benefit you more for your neighbor to keep his money or for the government to seize it and redirect it?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Doesn't matter. What right have I to "benefit" at the expense of my neighbor's labor? Is he my slave or a free man like myself?

Some interesting discussion in this thread. As I expressed in my response, I believe that there are some limited functions that are best performed by government... and as it turns out these are pretty well explicitly defined in our Constitution. Anything beyond that is theft, and we crossed that line decades ago.

tantrix
11-27-2012, 07:15
My biggest gripe is not that I have to pay taxes, it is that I have zero say in how my tax dollars are allocated, and that there are so many pet programs that are seemingly untouchable.

This.


And the way it's currently set up, my tax dollars mostly benefit those who don't work at all...which means they would be better off staying in my own pocket instead of stolen by my government. Yeah, that's right...they're stolen.

m51
11-27-2012, 07:22
Rub a little salve on that hind teet. It'll be fine

I expected no less from you, Mr Last Word CF.. You are many things, mostly predictable..

Atlas
11-27-2012, 07:22
.. Yeah, that's right...they're stolen.

Clearly.
"Irresputibly" even..

Gallium
11-27-2012, 07:48
I expected no less from you, Mr Last Word CF.. You are many things, mostly predictable..


He started a thread, you asked him to give it up (not sure what yours + his history is), he (rightfully so) retorts, and you say the blame lies with him?

There are a few people here...I have never posted in their threads, for a myriad of reasons. The prudent thing to do if you disagree with someone so disparately is to take a pass on their thread.

CF and I have agreed, disagreed and agreed to disagree on many occasions. His style is not always my style - and yes, one of his pet peeves is taxes.

It really should be a peeve for ALL OF US - including folks who don't pay "enough" of their fair share, because "government" really does suck a disproportionate amount of wealth out of the system when contrasted to the stability it provides.

- G

Bren
11-27-2012, 08:35
The citizens need to contribute enough money to the government to perform the functions of government - military, police, courts, etc.

Other than that, it should be in the hands of the citizens.

Welfare, medical care, education and various of our major government expenses are NOT necessary or wise government functions.

Gallium
11-27-2012, 08:40
The citizens need to contribute enough money to the government to perform the functions of government - military, police, courts, etc.

Other than that, it should be in the hands of the citizens.

Welfare, medical care, education and various of our major government expenses are NOT necessary or wise government functions.


Bren, you included military, police, courts...but not scientific research.

Why not?

- G

tantrix
11-27-2012, 08:47
Bren, you included military, police, courts...but not scientific research.

Why not?

- G

I wouldn't have either...a ridiculous amount of things that fall into the "scientific research" category are flat-out stupid as hell and a waste of money. That's an entirely different problem altogether.

Bren
11-27-2012, 08:49
Bren, you included military, police, courts...but not scientific research.

Why not?

- G

Because scientific research is done best in the private sector, where it has always been done best. Not even remotely a government function.

certifiedfunds
11-27-2012, 08:50
Bren, you included military, police, courts...but not scientific research.

Why not?

- G

Scientific research is a huge money sink. Resources are allocated very inefficiently. I have first hand experience in (read profit from) this.

I have sold instrumentation to researchers that was never even installed because they had spend-it-or-lose-it money.

Atlas
11-27-2012, 09:26
I wouldn't have either...a ridiculous amount of things that fall into the "scientific research" category are flat-out stupid as hell and a waste of money. That's an entirely different problem altogether.

As when a few years ago it was discovered that the Fed government was spending tax money to fund a study of the sexual habits and behavior of gay men.... in Argentina?

tantrix
11-27-2012, 09:30
As when a few years ago it was discovered that the Fed government was spending tax money to fund a study of the sexual habits and behavior of gay men.... in Argentina?

Wouldn't surprise me. I'm kind of scared to know how many more billions are given to fund studies "in the name of science".

DanaT
11-27-2012, 09:49
This article talks about why the west is losing the economic war to the east...

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/26/business/interview-niall-ferguson/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

DanaT
11-27-2012, 09:51
My money is best if it's in my hands. Your money.. Well, I don't care what you do with your money...

Let me rephrase

My money is best if it's in my hands. Your money.. Well, is best if it's in my hands...

DanaT
11-27-2012, 09:52
And, don't even think about accusing me of being a liberal, socialist, Obama-loving hippie.

Hillary more your style?? :tongueout::tongueout:

DanaT
11-27-2012, 09:54
a private mail service ran from Italy to the guts of Europe

I have used private mail services. FedEx. UPS.

DanaT
11-27-2012, 09:58
The citizens need to contribute enough money to the government to perform the functions of government - military, police, courts, etc.

Other than that, it should be in the hands of the citizens.

Welfare, medical care, education and various of our major government expenses are NOT necessary or wise government functions.

Its the "etc" that is a little vague.

And then even those that are your first 3, well, how much is enough?

m51
11-27-2012, 10:20
He started a thread, you asked him to give it up (not sure what yours + his history is), he (rightfully so) retorts, and you say the blame lies with him?

There are a few people here...I have never posted in their threads, for a myriad of reasons. The prudent thing to do if you disagree with someone so disparately is to take a pass on their thread.

CF and I have agreed, disagreed and agreed to disagree on many occasions. His style is not always my style - and yes, one of his pet peeves is taxes.

It really should be a peeve for ALL OF US - including folks who don't pay "enough" of their fair share, because "government" really does suck a disproportionate amount of wealth out of the system when contrasted to the stability it provides.

- G

We all have a right to express out opinion, you seem to think yours is better than mine. I suggest you try another life outside of Glock Talk and learn more about life, I mean over 45000 posts, yikes, there is more to life than internet forums.:dunno:

certifiedfunds
11-27-2012, 10:23
We all have a right to express out opinion, you seem to think yours is better than mine. I suggest you try another life outside of Glock Talk and learn more about life, I mean over 45000 posts, yikes, there is more to life than internet forums.:dunno:

Lots of us think his is better than yours.

If the teet salve doesn't work, try a balm.

Gallium
11-27-2012, 11:07
We all have a right to express our opinion, you seem to think yours is better than mine. I suggest you try another life outside of Glock Talk and learn more about life, I mean over 45000 posts, yikes, there is more to life than internet forums.:dunno:


Yes, yes. I have no life, no income, no brains, and all I do is waste my while away on GT. Your interpretation of my reality has no bearing on what I have said before, and certainly is none of your business unless I choose to share it with you. :)

No, I certainly don't think my opinion is better than anyone else's. I do recognize that when someone creates a topic, if I find that person or their ideas so unappealing I make efforts to stay out of their threads.

Also recognized is that it is "their" thread - which is the point I was trying to make before. If you created a thread on a topic and Certified Funds went in there to piss in your thread I would tell him much of the same thing, and probably in harsher terms - because at least with him there is a posting history I am familiar with.

CAcop
11-27-2012, 11:47
Death and taxes. Somtimes death taxes.

blastfact
11-27-2012, 19:15
Tax is a must do evil. But it is very clear to anybody with a 3rd grade education the numbers are all out of wack! It's got insane!

Just set back and think about all the tax you pay everyday, week or month. Don't even look at your payroll tax. Look at your fuel tax be it gas, fuel oil, natural gas, propane or electricity. Then add in your communication tax. Look at your phone bill, cell bill, internet bill. The charges for service are one thing. But look at the fed, state and local taxes tacked on. The system of taxation has become insane. The damn gov. taxes every damn thing they can,,,, everything. And they still want more!

The wife and I set down one weekend and figured up all the tax we paid the month before. It really pissed us off! All said and done we paid 40% or better in tax or fee's to some form of government of our gross income.

The country was born of revolution. And one of the few reason it was born was over taxation.

I for one am sick of the government, politicians and the lazy SOB's with there hand out!

certifiedfunds
11-27-2012, 19:32
Tax is a must do evil. But it is very clear to anybody with a 3rd grade education the numbers are all out of wack! It's got insane!

Just set back and think about all the tax you pay everyday, week or month. Don't even look at your payroll tax. Look at your fuel tax be it gas, fuel oil, natural gas, propane or electricity. Then add in your communication tax. Look at your phone bill, cell bill, internet bill. The charges for service are one thing. But look at the fed, state and local taxes tacked on. The system of taxation has become insane. The damn gov. taxes every damn thing they can,,,, everything. And they still want more!

The wife and I set down one weekend and figured up all the tax we paid the month before. It really pissed us off! All said and done we paid 40% or better in tax or fee's to some form of government of our gross income.

The country was born of revolution. And one of the few reason it was born was over taxation.

I for one am sick of the government, politicians and the lazy SOB's with there hand out!

You forgot corporate taxation that is passed through to you.

MarinePride
11-27-2012, 19:34
Taxes are just a way to keep people poor and not much else. All your taxes do if fund the high life living and perks for those in gov't. Anyone who disagrees with that is obviously benefiting from it.

Gallium
11-27-2012, 19:35
You forgot corporate taxation that is passed through to you.


and after all those taxes, sales taxes on many things we purchase,

then estate tax for the fruits of our hard labors to be passed on to our beneficiaries.

blastfact
11-27-2012, 19:53
You forgot corporate taxation that is passed through to you.

And it goes on and on. If I'm not paying my tax. I'm paying part of someone else's tax burden. If I invest money that has already been taxed I pay gains tax if I make money on the invest. Pay me now or pay me later, but your sorry ass is going to pay. Hell the sorry SOB's tax your money you have been paying tax on all your life in some form or another when you die.

There is no end to what the sorry bastards can take from you and you have little to no say in how it's spent.

I spent $100 today on gas, food, smokes, beer and tolls for a toll road today. I don't have to use the toll road. But the feds got me on fuel tax, smokes and beer. Then the state got me on sales tax, plus sin tax on my smokes and beer. I spent $100 and got around $75 worth of product and or services. The SOB's pretty much got the rest. After I already paid the tax on the earned money.

I hate the government. I'm just about fed up with all this damn taxation.