The belief that dogs are "people" kills [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kingarthurhk
11-26-2012, 16:16
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

fnfalman
11-26-2012, 16:18
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

clancy
11-26-2012, 16:19
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

You have never met my in-laws. And I mean it.

Kingarthurhk
11-26-2012, 16:20
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

That is some really sad priorities that you value animal life above humans and your own family. Are you vegan, and do you avoid all animal products? If not, it would appear your ethics and priorities are more tangled than twenty year old christmas lights.

fnfalman
11-26-2012, 16:25
That is some really sad priorities that you value animal life above humans and your own family. Are you vegan, and do you avoid all animal products? If not, it would appear your ethics and priorities are more tangled than twenty year old christmas lights.

What does my being a carnivore have to do with my pets?

Do you eat your pets on a regular basis?

My pets give me comfort and entertainment. My pets don't vote for Democrats or Republicans. My pets don't go and rape & kill others because of religious beliefs.

debbert
11-26-2012, 16:28
I like my dog more than I like most people. She will protect me, and I will protect her, if I can.

Gallium
11-26-2012, 16:30
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

I heard this on the news, and was wondering what time Bren was going to start the thread. :cool:

I don't think your narration of what transpired is entirely accurate.




"Boy" is a 16 yr old.
He threw a stick in the ocean, the dog went to get it
The boy went to get the dog (1st bad idea)
The dad went to get the boy.
The boy emerged from the water, did not see his dad
Mom and boy went to find dad
All three perish
The dog (very naturally) is upwind a bit wondering where everyone is.

Very very tragic. When I was 12yrs old I MIGHT have gone in after my dog as well. We don't know the mindset of the boy, and/or his level of emotional development/maturity.

Kingarthurhk
11-26-2012, 16:31
What does my being a carnivore have to do with my pets?

Do you eat your pets on a regular basis?

My pets give me comfort and entertainment. My pets don't vote for Democrats or Republicans. My pets don't go and rape & kill others because of religious beliefs.

If you are a carnivore, then clearly you can distinguish that animal life is expendable for the use of humans. Therefore, valuing animal life about human life doesn't work. Like I said, 20 year old Christmas lights.

If it was a choice between my wife and children and the dog, the dog goes.

It must be too much city living, I don't get it.

Calico Jack
11-26-2012, 16:32
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

Did you read the entire article?

Kingarthurhk
11-26-2012, 16:34
I heard this on the news, and was wondering what time Bren was going to start the thread. :cool:

I don't think your narration of what transpired is entirely accurate.




"Boy" is a 16 yr old.
He threw a stick in the ocean, the dog went to get it
The boy went to get the dog (1st bad idea)
The dad went to get the boy.
The boy emerged from the water, did not see his dad
Mom and boy went to find dad
All three perish
The dog (very naturally) is upwind a bit wondering where everyone is.
Very very tragic. When I was 12yrs old I MIGHT have gone in after my dog as well. We don't know the mindset of the boy, and/or his level of emotional development/maturity.

It all started with the teenager running off to "save dear doggie". That has to be a value that is taught and observed. Ask a rancher about dogs. If they became expensively injured, you dig a hole. You don't run down to the local animal clinic and mortage the ranch.

Kingarthurhk
11-26-2012, 16:35
Did you read the entire article?

Yes, I read the article. The value taught to the teenager is "doggie is human" started this whole chain of unfortunate events.

fnfalman
11-26-2012, 16:37
If you are a carnivore, then clearly you can distinguish that animal life is expendable for the use of humans. Therefore, valuing animal life about human life doesn't work. Like I said, 20 year old Christmas lights.

If it was a choice between my wife and children and the dog, the dog goes.

It must be too much city living, I don't get it.

Not all animals are pets.

I couldn't give a rat's ass if a Japanese cow got killed so that I can have kobe steak and the sweet honey gets a nice handbag. If somebody were to try to kill my pet cow for food, then we'd have some serious problems resulting in death and violence of human beings.

I couldn't give a rat's patooey if my next door neighbor's dog were to drown. However, I'd risk my life to save my dog.

I don't have a wife, but if I were to have one and it's between her and my dog, I'd have to flip a coin. My dog doesn't nag on me. Nor does it want my credit cards to go buy shoes.

I hope that makes it clear for you.

devildog2067
11-26-2012, 16:37
If you are a carnivore, then clearly you can distinguish that animal life is expendable for the use of humans.

You make a fallacious assumption. I'm guessing that fnfalman would agree wtih the idea that not all animal life (and not all human life) has the same value.

I wouldn't eat my pets. I wouldn't kill my family. But I would eat some animals and I would kill some people.

fnfalman
11-26-2012, 16:37
Yes, I read the article. The value taught to the teenager is "doggie is human" started this whole chain of unfortunate events.

So, you'd save a drowning terrorist Islamist over a drowning dog?

devildog2067
11-26-2012, 16:39
It all started with the teenager running off to "save dear doggie". That has to be a value that is taught and observed. Ask a rancher about dogs. If they became expensively injured, you dig a hole. You don't run down to the local animal clinic and mortage the ranch.

Isn't that a choice that each person should get to make on his or her own?

I'm with you, I think I generally would not risk my own life to save my dog and if it came down to my dog or my wife, the dog would go. But I don't presume to make that choice for other people, and there are definitely some dogs I'd save before some people. I definitely wouldn't presume to tell someone else how much money they should spend trying to save their own pet--it's their money and their business.

fnfalman
11-26-2012, 16:40
Isn't that a choice that each person should get to make on his or her own?

I'm with you, I think I generally would not risk my own life to save my dog and if it came down to my dog or my wife, the dog would go. But I don't presume to make that choice for other people, and there are definitely some dogs I'd save before some people. I definitely wouldn't presume to tell someone else how much money they should spend trying to save their own pet--it's their money and their business.

What about your ex-wife?

Calico Jack
11-26-2012, 16:42
Yes, I read the article. The value taught to the teenager is "doggie is human" started this whole chain of unfortunate events.

Can you prove that?

If the kid jumped in for a pair of sunglasses would you say he was taught, "sunglasses are human"?

trashcat
11-26-2012, 16:44
People forget that the ocean is not the same as a lake or pond you can't go after a struggling swimmer and do a survival float until rescue arrives. I've been to many of the beaches in that area, they are well known for dangerous undertows, strong surf action, strong currents, and the average water temp is 53-54 degrees.
Never go after a dog in the water, a dog will survival swim better than you who is used to swimming laps in the pool or playing around in the lake.

HollowHead
11-26-2012, 16:44
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

Were you bitten as a child, or did the dog simply not play with you? HH

NeverMore1701
11-26-2012, 16:46
Were you bitten as a child, or did the dog simply not play with you? HH

Or the dog turned down his amorous advances?

Travelin' Jack
11-26-2012, 16:46
I don't see that as the value of animal versus human life.

Would you risk your life to save a life that you love? I would. That includes many people... and my dog.

treeline
11-26-2012, 16:48
Yeah, screw the dog. You know who pushes the line that dogs are equivilent to humans? Athiests. It's yet another way of spitting on God.

Nah, I'm just tweeking your bum. This is a wierd thread though and I'm sure there's a religious priciple behind all the dogophobia.

Calico Jack
11-26-2012, 16:50
I don't see that as the value of animal versus human life.

Would you risk your life to save a life that you love? I would. That includes many people... and my dog.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the situation. Would I save my dog before saving my wife or child? No, but I would try my damnedest to save my dog after I saved my wife or child.

itisbruno
11-26-2012, 17:33
My dog can swim.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh193/brun02/dog/100_0848.jpg



http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh193/brun02/dog/100_0846.jpg

Hell, he could pull me out with that little stick.

Glock20 10mm
11-26-2012, 17:34
My dogs have a job, if they die in the execution of their job then so be it. I don't get emotionally attached to animals. I respect them, appreciate their service and make their life as comfortable and loving as realistically possible.

But they are not humans, they do not have human thought process and they are low on the hierarchy of value when it comes to life choices.

Gallium
11-26-2012, 17:43
To the OP, you are making a slew of assumptions. As DD has pointed out, ALL OF US have some sort of value system, and NONE OF US places all humans at the same value on that scale.

With regards to this tragic loss of life? I don't know if the 16yr old was developmentally delayed (ie, mentally). Would your opinion change if it was a 6yr old kid?

Bren
11-26-2012, 17:46
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

I agree.

el_jewapo
11-26-2012, 17:46
My dog can swim.

Hell, he could pull me out with that little stick.

Pretty much any animal can swim.

hogfish
11-26-2012, 17:47
What does my being a carnivore have to do with my pets?

Do you eat your pets on a regular basis?

My pets give me comfort and entertainment. My pets don't vote for Democrats or Republicans. My pets don't go and rape & kill others because of religious beliefs.

That's how it starts: eating his pets. Next thing, he'll be eating his children. :rofl:

itisbruno
11-26-2012, 17:48
Pretty much any animal can swim.

tous can't

:tongueout:

janice6
11-26-2012, 17:50
You make a fallacious assumption. I'm guessing that fnfalman would agree wtih the idea that not all animal life (and not all human life) has the same value.

I wouldn't eat my pets. I wouldn't kill my family. But I would eat some animals and I would kill some people.


I have to agree with this.

Decisions have to be based on personal priorities.

Gallium
11-26-2012, 17:51
Pretty much any animal can swim.


Even a manatee? :tbo:

nmk
11-26-2012, 18:04
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

We all evaluate risks. I'm sure if the family could all come back in place of the dog they would. So what is your point exactly?

Nice to see GNG supports the idea that your logic sucks.

janice6
11-26-2012, 18:07
The family didn't die trying to save the dog.

The 16 year old boy tried to save the dog, then returned to shore. Good judgment.

The family tried to save each other, the dog was not an issue. Their efforts were valiant, but futile.

Lone Wolf8634
11-26-2012, 18:17
That is some really sad priorities that you value animal life above humans and your own family. Are you vegan, and do you avoid all animal products? If not, it would appear your ethics and priorities are more tangled than twenty year old christmas lights.

That..... is stupid.

You judge his ethics and priorities based on a flip comment on the web. Accuse him of being vegan because he'd risk himself to save his pet?

I got news for you, I'd risk my life to save my little buddies. Hell, I'd risk YOUR life to save them.

Why?

I love my dogs, they make me feel better after a bad day when they both jump in my lap and burrow their heads into my neck and wiggle with pleasure as I scratch them. You're just another judgmental A-hole in a hat.

I know far too many people I wouldn't piddle on if they was on fire, I never met a dog that made me feel that way.

Now you have someone to judge.

RPVG
11-26-2012, 18:25
But they are not humans, they do not have human thought process and they are low on the hierarchy of value when it comes to life choices.
That about sums it up for me, too. I've had many dogs over the years and I loved them all. Your dog is the only animal in the world that would rather be with you than with other dogs. Dog spelled backwards is... and all that. Heck, I even carry "doggy treats" in my glove box... for dogs I've never met.

But, no, they are not humans. I think human life has a much greater value.

Chuck TX
11-26-2012, 18:33
Even a manatee? :tbo:

With or without the stolen tablet? :rofl:

Merkavaboy
11-26-2012, 19:47
For those who would risk their life to save an animal (any animal including pets), feel free to answer this question:

Assuming that you have family/friends who love you and/or rely on you to keep them safe, do you think that they will miss you and mourn your death more than that animal you tried to save?

OR, would your loving spouse, child, mother, father, brother, sister, close friend etc. mourn the loss of YOUR life more than that of the animal if you we're to lose YOUR life trying to save an animal (especially a pet)?

Just how selfish would you be if you were to sacrafice your life over that of a family pet or any animal?

In the story posted by the OP there is 2 survivors, the young daughter who called 911 and watched her ENTIRE FAMILY drown, and the dog. This girl will live her entire life without the love and comfort of her family. Do any of you animal lovers think that the death of this girl's mother, father and brother worth their ultimate sacrafice trying to save one stinkin' dog?

*ASH*
11-26-2012, 19:48
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

we agree :faint::faint::faint:

our pets are family period .

Fear Night
11-26-2012, 19:55
The family didn't die trying to save the dog.

The 16 year old boy tried to save the dog, then returned to shore. Good judgment.

The family tried to save each other, the dog was not an issue. Their efforts were valiant, but futile.
This. Nobody died trying to save the dog.

The only individuals that died were the ones trying to save their human family members.

devildog2067
11-26-2012, 20:01
For those who would risk their life to save an animal (any animal including pets), feel free to answer this question:

Why do you insist that others should have the same values as you?

CBennett
11-26-2012, 20:10
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

agreed, saw that animals are animals yeah we fall in love with them but thats just it they are still animals. If I could with a Minimum of risk save a pet I would do it..but if id have to honestly have to risk mine or a family members life to do so thats when you have to remember that no matter how attached we get that they are just that Animals and not worth risking life for IMO. of course others will have different opinions...thats fine...I dont insist that they agree with me...do I think its foolish to value our pets lives as much as ours yes. I think God gave humans something special he didnt give to animals...and thus I value human life over animals. (Well most human life I should say there are some that would never be worth saving but thats another subject...( im not talking criminals,dirt bags, etc or any of those types)


I read that article earlier today and quickly thought..nope id not have done that id have stopped the rest of my family from doing that either. Id have felt horrible but i also known id have made the right decision.

dotsun
11-26-2012, 20:15
Pretty much any animal can swim.

I've seen the DNA and I really don't think squatches can swim.

badge315
11-26-2012, 20:17
For those who would risk their life to save a stranger, feel free to answer this question:

Assuming that you have family/friends who love you and/or rely on you to keep them safe, do you think that they will miss you and mourn your death more than that stranger you tried to save?

OR, would your loving spouse, child, mother, father, brother, sister, close friend etc. mourn the loss of YOUR life more than that of the stranger if you we're to lose YOUR life trying to save a stranger?

Just how selfish would you be if you were to sacrafice your life over that of a stranger?

I've changed one word, but you could still apply that exact same logic. So I guess all those people who risk their lives to save strangers are a bunch of selfish A-holes too, huh? :upeyes:

ysr_racer
11-26-2012, 20:30
[URL] No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

I've got some inlaws I trade for a dead dog any day of the week.

Caver 60
11-26-2012, 21:10
agreed, saw that animals are animals yeah we fall in love with them but thats just it they are still animals. If I could with a Minimum of risk save a pet I would do it..but if id have to honestly have to risk mine or a family members life to do so thats when you have to remember that no matter how attached we get that they are just that Animals and not worth risking life for IMO. of course others will have different opinions...thats fine...I dont insist that they agree with me...do I think its foolish to value our pets lives as much as ours yes. I think God gave humans something special he didnt give to animals...and thus I value human life over animals. (Well most human life I should say there are some that would never be worth saving but thats another subject...( im not talking criminals,dirt bags, etc or any of those types)


I read that article earlier today and quickly thought..nope id not have done that id have stopped the rest of my family from doing that either. Id have felt horrible but i also known id have made the right decision.

For those who would risk their life to save an animal (any animal including pets), feel free to answer this question:

Assuming that you have family/friends who love you and/or rely on you to keep them safe, do you think that they will miss you and mourn your death more than that animal you tried to save?

OR, would your loving spouse, child, mother, father, brother, sister, close friend etc. mourn the loss of YOUR life more than that of the animal if you we're to lose YOUR life trying to save an animal (especially a pet)?

Just how selfish would you be if you were to sacrafice your life over that of a family pet or any animal?

In the story posted by the OP there is 2 survivors, the young daughter who called 911 and watched her ENTIRE FAMILY drown, and the dog. This girl will live her entire life without the love and comfort of her family. Do any of you animal lovers think that the death of this girl's mother, father and brother worth their ultimate sacrafice trying to save one stinkin' dog?

My dogs have a job, if they die in the execution of their job then so be it. I don't get emotionally attached to animals. I respect them, appreciate their service and make their life as comfortable and loving as realistically possible.

But they are not humans, they do not have human thought process and they are low on the hierarchy of value when it comes to life choices.

No animal is worth risking even the most worthless human life over IMO. I love my dog and cat, but the only way I'd try to save them is if there was no risk to my life. Animals do not have a soul. Even the most worthless human has a soul and possibly one day they will come to know Jesus and be saved. No animal can ever do that.

If my pet gets sick, I can and will put a bullet in it's brain without a thought. For instance a few years ago an adult cat we adopted got leukemia. After a consult with a vet, I took it home, put a piece of it's favorite food in front of it, and while the cat was eating I put him down. Done the same to other pets over the years. Would never do something like that to a human, unless they were a threat to me or my loved ones.

Cali-Glock
11-26-2012, 21:11
I am admittedly overly attached to my pets. My wife and I are freaks who easentialy treat our pets like our kids. We loce our pets. I like my pets more than most people. I would indeed risk my life for my pets.

But the reality is this: they are not people, they are animals. As such, this fact trumps my emotions.

*ASH*
11-26-2012, 21:14
I've seen the DNA and I really don't think squatches can swim.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

NEOH212
11-26-2012, 21:18
I like my dog more than I like most people. She will protect me, and I will protect her, if I can.

I feel the same way about my cats. What's weird is a few years ago I wasn't a animal person. I even called someone stupid in a old thread that died in the process of trying to save their dog.

Man how things change. I never had pets when I was a kid so I never understood the bond there was to be had with them. One little kitty came into my life and changed that. Now I can't think of life without them.

I would die saving my cats. People can call me what they will but I don't care. I was that person once and believe me I understand that they aren't able to relate or understand how we feel about it. They give us unconditional love and represent everything that us humans should be but often aren't.

I'm glad for and I'm forever grateful to that sweet little kitty that came into my life and changed me forever. God rest him.

NEOH212
11-26-2012, 21:20
Animals do not have a soul.

I don't want to get into a Religious debate here but that isn't true. In fact, our pets will be with us in heaven.

Please feel free to PM me for further information.

:wavey:

Fear Night
11-26-2012, 21:44
This reminds me of a hypothetical situation brought up on another forum I frequent. The situation was presented as follows:

Your community is hit by a terrible flood, and your pet dog is missing. You finally come across your dog and a complete stranger in the flood waters, and they are both about to drown. Do you save your dog, or the stranger? You can only choose to save one.

The results consisted of about half the people saying they would save their pet dog, while the other half ridiculed the first half for holding a dogs life higher than a humans. Hypotheticals are dumb so I declined to answer.

Altaris
11-26-2012, 21:50
No animal is worth risking even the most worthless human life over IMO.

So you are saying that you wouldn't even risk Hitler or Osama's life for that of your dog who has been completely obedient, loved your family without question, and brought joy to your life?



Animals do not have a soul. Even the most worthless human has a soul and possibly one day they will come to know Jesus and be saved. No animal can ever do that.


Us animals(humans), are going to the same place as our animal cousins(dogs) when we die.....the ground. Then other animals can live and grow off of the our materials.

Altaris
11-26-2012, 21:56
This reminds me of a hypothetical situation brought up on another forum I frequent. The situation was presented as follows:

Your community is hit by a terrible flood, and your pet dog is missing. You finally come across your dog and a complete stranger in the flood waters, and they are both about to drown. Do you save your dog, or the stranger? You can only choose to save one.

The results consisted of about half the people saying they would save their pet dog, while the other half ridiculed the first half for holding a dogs life higher than a humans. Hypotheticals are dumb so I declined to answer.

And that is exactly why I don't like the "would you risk your life?" type questions.
They automatically imply that you know your life is in jeopardy when you are doing the act. In most of these type of cases, where someone dies trying to save their pet, or their car, or whatever, it is because they think they are perfectly fine. Before they realize it they are then in over their heads and it is too late.

UtahIrishman
11-26-2012, 22:25
One of the things that makes me get up and go to work every day is to see the complete loyalty and trust that our cats display in me that I will provide for them.

I don't know anyone else including my wife who have that kind of complete loyalty and trust in me.

I would go to hell and back for any of our pets.

tantrix
11-26-2012, 22:29
One of the things that makes me get up and go to work every day is to see the complete loyalty and trust that our cats display in me that I will provide for them.

I don't know anyone else including my wife who have that kind of complete loyalty and trust in me.

I would go to hell and back for any of our pets.


:crazy:

ron59
11-26-2012, 22:34
I probably wouldn't risk my life for most animals. I would for MY dogs.

OP doesn't have a clue.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

UtahIrishman
11-26-2012, 22:35
:crazy:

I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so. My choice.

I give complete loyalty in return for complete loyalty...and pets do just that.

tantrix
11-26-2012, 22:44
I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so. My choice.

I give complete loyalty in return for complete loyalty...and pets do just that.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ztw0HA23-aU/TyIs09m_NwI/AAAAAAAABAM/TGMYq0iVBGg/s1600/crazy+cat+lady.jpg

Gunhaver
11-26-2012, 22:46
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

This story headline could just have easily read, "Family makes bad decision, bad things happen..."

Has nothing to do with the dog. If they'd died all trying to save a child they'd still be dead and it would still be sad. If they'd saved the dog then they'd all be heroes. It has nothing to do with the dog.

Go ahead and put "going all anti-dog on GT" on the list of not the brightest ideas you've had. And what's this blather about non-vegans having ethics and priorities issues? A chicken or a cow isn't going to save me from a fire or walk 500 miles to find me. A chicken and a cow are for enjoying with other animals that will do those things, both 2 and 4 legged.

frank4570
11-26-2012, 22:52
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

Thank you. I totally agree with fnfalman.

Goat 36
11-26-2012, 22:54
I agree that it's been established that the family members perished attempting to save eachother after the boy went in after the dog.

I'd like to add that, like NEOH212 points out, if you've never really connected with an animal in your life, you probably have no concept of the experience and, for some, may not ever have the pleasure of developing that kind of unique connection.

One fact has always been very clear and profound to me: I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that my dog/dogs would absolutely give 'their' lives for 'me' without hesitation if they sensed that I was in real trouble.

That fact alone, for me, is plenty motivation for me to do the same. In the moment that a loved one's life is teetering on the edge of a cliff, all man-made rules and reputations go right out the window. It is our truest nature and yet it is foreign to so many.

As someone else stated, I believe animals show us constantly how humans could/should be. Most of the things on Earth that arrogant humans look down upon as lower life forms are actually way above us in many ways.

frank4570
11-26-2012, 22:59
As someone else stated, I believe animals show us constantly how humans could/should be. Most of the things on Earth that arrogant humans look down upon as lower life forms are actually way above us in many ways.

You will never be able to explain that to the people who need to hear it the most. The people who are an embarrassment to the rest of us humans.

countrygun
11-26-2012, 23:08
This thread was started on a false premise, a twisting of the facts and flawed logic so egergious that it has forced me to go to an horrifying extreme---I am forced to agree with "gunhaver".:shocked:

The "rescue was a cluster *****. started by the boy going after the dog BUT I have to ask, unless this kid was raised on a farm and used to killing his 4-H projects, would it be considered "normal" for a kid to just watch a family pet die?

Don't we generally get concerned about kids who can watch animals die?

It was the job of the parents to be "in charge" at the beach. It is a dangerous place and I live very close to the same type of beach. It is not a place where you can afford not to pay attention. Several things failed, but a kid being concerned about his pet wasn't the stupid part of the tragedy.

HollowHead
11-26-2012, 23:14
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

I've jumped through ice to save a dog and kicked a foaming racoon with sandals to save a horse. I also cracked a beer when the punk kid down the next road was life-flighted away after trying to steal stuff from a utility substation. Still have the dog, the horse made it to 28 and the kid steers his chair with his tongue and I sleep well at night. HH

frank4570
11-26-2012, 23:24
I've jumped through ice to save a dog and kicked a foaming racoon with sandals to save a horse. I also cracked a beer when the punk kid down the next road was life-flighted away after trying to steal stuff from a utility substation. Still have the dog, the horse made it to 28 and the kid steers his chair with his tongue and I sleep well at night. HH

I really don't know how I could agree with you any more than I do now.

Cali-Glock
11-26-2012, 23:27
No animal is worth risking even the most worthless human life over IMO. I love my dog and cat, but the only way I'd try to save them is if there was no risk to my life. Animals do not have a soul. Even the most worthless human has a soul and possibly one day they will come to know Jesus and be saved. No animal can ever do that.


What about risking a human life over other physical property? How about risking other peoples life over physical property?

People do it every day: People put their own lives and the lives of others at risk for silly stupid reasons, many/most arguably far, far more frivolous than trying to save a pet.

Do you live a live trying to avoid ALL risk? What extremes do you take this approach?

(Keep in mind this question is coming from a professional risk manager.)

MrsUzi4U
11-26-2012, 23:29
Just maybe they were confident that their lives wouldn't be at stake swimming after the dog, boy, dad. The thought might have been they were going to get wet, cold, and inconvenienced, but it would all come out right giving a helping hand to dog, boy, dad.

NeverMore1701
11-26-2012, 23:39
I'd let any number of rapists, murderers, child abusers, terrorists, and just plain old ass holes drown if it meant saving my dog, cats, horses... hell, even the fish and snakes. And TV. My stuff is more important to me than someone who doesn't care enough about their own life to bother living like a decent human being.

tantrix
11-26-2012, 23:50
I love my dog and cat, but the only way I'd try to save them is if there was no risk to my life.

And here we have it. This is closer to the truth than what a lot of people here have posted. Sure, most people care about their pets immensely...but now back to reality.

Put in that situation, 99% of everyone here aren't running into any house engulfed in flames to save their pets...they will stand on the lawn and watch their house burn down in disbelief like everyone else.

It doesn't mean they don't care, humans have a natural instinct to survive...and it supersedes pulling movie stunts to save animals.

countrygun
11-26-2012, 23:54
And here we have it. This is closer to the truth than what a lot of people here have posted. Sure, most people care about their pets immensely...but now back to reality.

Put in that situation, 99% of everyone here aren't running into any house engulfed in flames to save their pets...they will stand on the lawn and watch their house burn down in disbelief like everyone else.

It doesn't mean they don't care, humans have a natural instinct to survive...and it supersedes pulling movie stunts to save animals.

When I was 13 that exact thing happened and I went back in after the dog. Dad went in after me, but the story had a happier ending.

tantrix
11-27-2012, 00:05
When I was 13 that exact thing happened and I went back in after the dog. Dad went in after me, but the story had a happier ending.

I'd hope my kids (especially teenagers) are smart enough to not run back into a house engulfed in flames.

NEOH212
11-27-2012, 00:15
One of the things that makes me get up and go to work every day is to see the complete loyalty and trust that our cats display in me that I will provide for them.

I don't know anyone else including my wife who have that kind of complete loyalty and trust in me.

I would go to hell and back for any of our pets.


Amen! :thumbsup:


(I guess that makes me a loon too!)

That's fine by me! :cool:

countrygun
11-27-2012, 00:16
I'd hope my kids (especially teenagers) are smart enough to not run back into a house engulfed in flames.

There are those will will risk and those who won't.

Dad was going back in but he was trying to calm my hysterical mother so I went.

I was raised knowing that risk was a part of life and worst thing a man could be called was a coward.

I have never had much use for a man who thinks his skin is the most valuable thing in the world.

NEOH212
11-27-2012, 00:17
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ztw0HA23-aU/TyIs09m_NwI/AAAAAAAABAM/TGMYq0iVBGg/s1600/crazy+cat+lady.jpg

I am the crazy cat lady!


:tongueout:

tsmo1066
11-27-2012, 00:20
I'm not sure that the family members even realized the danger when the son went after the dog and the mom and son subsequently went in after the dad. 8-10 foot waves aren't necessarily all that fearsome looking and many folks don't realize how powerful the undercurrents can be that are associated with such waves.

They figure that since they are very close to shore to begin with, the worst that can happen is they get knocked down and thrown back towards the beach. A lot of folks don't understand that the wave action can create powerful currents that will quickly drag you AWAY from shore.

My guess is that the kid went into the water thinking "I'll just grab the pooch and drag him back. Worst that can happen is I get tossed around a bit". I doubt he thought he was making a life-threatening decision in the first place.

Everything that happened afterwards was a tragic series of events involving humans trying to save other beloved HUMAN members of the famiy, not the pet.

Calico Jack
11-27-2012, 00:25
And here we have it. This is closer to the truth than what a lot of people here have posted. Sure, most people care about their pets immensely...but now back to reality.

Put in that situation, 99% of everyone here aren't running into any house engulfed in flames to save their pets...they will stand on the lawn and watch their house burn down in disbelief like everyone else.

It doesn't mean they don't care, humans have a natural instinct to survive...and it supersedes pulling movie stunts to save animals.

I 'd take death over living with the guilt of knowing I stood idly by on my front lawn as my best friend burned to death inside my residence.

countrygun
11-27-2012, 00:26
I am the crazy cat lady!


:tongueout:

So, how many "Hello Kitty" pistols do you own?

:tongueout:


J/K

Folsom_Prison
11-27-2012, 00:34
I'm not gonna die over any animal! Got a dog, he's become more trouble Than he's worth the past couple months, honestly wish I never got him. If somebody said it's you orthe dog buddy, I'd say take him then.

tantrix
11-27-2012, 00:50
There are those will will risk and those who won't.

Dad was going back in but he was trying to calm my hysterical mother so I went.

I was raised knowing that risk was a part of life and worst thing a man could be called was a coward.

I have never had much use for a man who thinks his skin is the most valuable thing in the world.

A burning house is dangerous even for firefighters to enter, much less people with no training or proper gear. It's the same reason firefighters go into burning houses for people first...they don't want to end up in the obituaries over someone's dog.



I 'd take death over living with the guilt of knowing I stood idly by on my front lawn as my best friend burned to death inside my residence.

Assessing risks is part of life. If both of you burned to death because you failed, it doesn't make you a hero...it says you made a poor decision. I don't know about you, but I have a wife and kids...and they don't want me risking my life over a pet.

NEOH212
11-27-2012, 00:55
So, how many "Hello Kitty" pistols do you own?

:tongueout:


J/K

I'll never tell.....:whistling:


Now my Hello Kitty PJ's.....:supergrin:

goldenlight
11-27-2012, 00:58
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

This.

Calico Jack
11-27-2012, 01:07
A burning house is dangerous even for firefighters to enter, much less people with no training or proper gear. It's the same reason firefighters go into burning houses for people first...they don't want to end up in the obituaries over someone's dog.





Assessing risks is part of life. If both of you burned to death because you failed, it doesn't make you a hero...it says you made a poor decision. I don't know about you, but I have a wife and kids...and they don't want me risking my life over a pet.

Would you reenter a burning building to save your wife or child?

janice6
11-27-2012, 01:27
And here we have it. This is closer to the truth than what a lot of people here have posted. Sure, most people care about their pets immensely...but now back to reality.

Put in that situation, 99% of everyone here aren't running into any house engulfed in flames to save their pets...they will stand on the lawn and watch their house burn down in disbelief like everyone else.

It doesn't mean they don't care, humans have a natural instinct to survive...and it supersedes pulling movie stunts to save animals.


Over the years I have seen countless newspaper articles describing family standing around watching the house burn with family members inside.

Your statement proves nothing.

Your value of a life, any life, is different from others here; not all, but some.

Since you have a different set of values this discussion will settle nothing. Also, because yours are different, it doesn't make them "more right", just different.

AK_Stick
11-27-2012, 01:57
No animal is worth risking even the most worthless human life over IMO. I love my dog and cat, but the only way I'd try to save them is if there was no risk to my life. Animals do not have a soul. Even the most worthless human has a soul and possibly one day they will come to know Jesus and be saved. No animal can ever do that.

If my pet gets sick, I can and will put a bullet in it's brain without a thought. For instance a few years ago an adult cat we adopted got leukemia. After a consult with a vet, I took it home, put a piece of it's favorite food in front of it, and while the cat was eating I put him down. Done the same to other pets over the years. Would never do something like that to a human, unless they were a threat to me or my loved ones.


That may be your belief but its not mine.

If my dogs can't/dont go to heaven, then I want to go where they do.

I love my dogs dearly, there are a hell of alot of people on this earth that don't rate what my dog does. My dogs give me pure, unadulterated, unquestioning love, and loyalty. There are very, very few people whom I could say that for.

You may not feel dogs are worth more than humans. But do not presume to attempt to force any of us that know better to try and live by, or believe your misguided values.

That said, we already know all dogs go to heaven.

NEOH212
11-27-2012, 02:24
If my dogs can't/dont go to heaven, then I want to go where they do.


That said, we already know all dogs go to heaven.

You need not worry. See this thread:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1401795

It's very clear in the Bible that our little furry friends will be with us for eternity.

For those who believe and know the Lord, no explanation is necessary.


For those who don't no explanation is possible.

Again, I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on Religion but this is relevant to the topic.

:wavey:

Psychman
11-27-2012, 06:19
I think we should take a poll to see if Tantrix is right about 99% of the people here would not run back into a burning building to try to save their dog. Actually there is no need for the poll because I know he is not right.

I have said it before, I love people who love dogs and you all know who you are.

eracer
11-27-2012, 06:24
You make a fallacious assumption. I'm guessing that fnfalman would agree wtih the idea that not all animal life (and not all human life) has the same value.

I wouldn't eat my pets. I wouldn't kill my family. But I would eat some animals and I would kill some people.Concisely and precisely correct.

Kingarthurhk posits from the viewpoint that God has given us dominion over all creatures. Thus, all creatures are inherently inferior. This is false.

RayB
11-27-2012, 06:34
1) It all started with the teenager running off to "save dear doggie".

2) Ask a rancher about dogs. If they became expensively injured, you dig a hole. You don't run down to the local animal clinic and mortage the ranch.


1) Your choice of words and the cadence of them, indicate the thoughts of a foul-natured, self-righteous, well, you get the idea... :wavey:

2) Ask a rancher what I should think, and how I should feel... Yeah, like that is going to happen... :sigh:

Life is very much a personal voyage through space and time, and happily, not subject to your opinion of anything... :upeyes:

Given the choice of jumping into the river for you or my dog? Well, you don't want to know...:whistling:

--Ray

eruby
11-27-2012, 06:35
Why do you insist that others should have the same values as you?This!

I can understand both viewpoints, but I don't expect anyone to have my viepoint.

If they do, good. If not, also good.

I'd risk my life for my cats, but I wouldn't piss on my (POS) sister if she were on fire.

badge315
11-27-2012, 06:54
If my dogs can't/dont go to heaven, then I want to go where they do.

I'm reminded of this episode of the Twilight Zone. :wavey:

Why dog is man's best friend - Twilight Zone Ep. - YouTube

SC Tiger
11-27-2012, 07:21
That is some really sad priorities that you value animal life above humans and your own family. Are you vegan, and do you avoid all animal products? If not, it would appear your ethics and priorities are more tangled than twenty year old christmas lights.

Depends on the animal and the human. There are humans whose life I value more than any animal. And there are animals whose life I value more than the rest of the humans.

The sad part is the dog was able to get out of the water on it's own.

tantrix
11-27-2012, 07:27
I think we should take a poll to see if Tantrix is right about 99% of the people here would not run back into a burning building to try to save their dog. Actually there is no need for the poll because I know he is not right.

I wouldn't assume most people would be stupid enough to attempt something like that...but in GNG, anything (no matter how dumb) is possible.

Psychman
11-27-2012, 08:11
I'm not gonna die over any animal! Got a dog, he's become more trouble Than he's worth the past couple months, honestly wish I never got him. If somebody said it's you orthe dog buddy, I'd say take him then.

I think alot of us here wish you had never got the dog also.

Santa CruZin
11-27-2012, 08:27
If I saw my dog struggling in high surf, I would take a hard look at how I would effect a successful rescue resulting in the survival of both of us and go from there. That objective assessment might only take a moment to make, but I'd do it before I simply dove in the water. As a life long sailor and strong swimmer, I have a great deal of respect for the sea and blindly jumping into it unprepared is a good way to risk death. I love my pets and I will do what I can to save and protect them, but their lives are not worth my life when it comes down to the brass tacks. If I can see a way to pull off a rescue, I will be the first to try. Gotta see it as viable before I go in, though.

tantrix
11-27-2012, 08:30
If I saw my dog struggling in high surf, I would take a hard look at how I would effect a successful rescue that resulting in the survival of both of us and go from there. That objective assessment might only take a moment to make, but I'd do it before I simply dove in the water. As a life long sailor and strong swimmer, I have a great deal of respect for the sea and blindly jumping into it unprepared is a good way to risk death. I love my pets and I will do what I can to save and protect them, but their lives are not worth my life when it comes down to the brass tacks. If I can see a way to pull off a rescue, I will be the first to try. Gotta see it as viable before I go in, though.

You mean you wouldn't just jump in and see what happens?

Based on this post, according to most of GNG...you hate all of your pets and shouldn't even be allowed to own them. :rofl: :supergrin:

Santa CruZin
11-27-2012, 08:37
You mean you wouldn't just jump in and see what happens?

Based on this post, according to most of GNG...you hate all of your pets and shouldn't even be allowed to own them. :rofl: :supergrin:

Never allow common sense to get in the way of GNG. :supergrin:

Especially if it's an APBT - if you don't die trying to save one, you're obviously a hate/fear monger towards the breed and not worthy of the internet or for that matter, anything.

If you take a look at the last page of the "Caturday..." thread, you can tell I hate and abuse my critters. :cool:

Sveke
11-27-2012, 08:46
You guys really wouldn't jump in and save your dog?

I'm a strong swimmer and a big fan of my dog so its a no brainer for me.

How could you not try to save this pretty girl.....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/27/e2etuser.jpg

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

nmk
11-27-2012, 09:13
No animal is worth risking even the most worthless human life over IMO. I love my dog and cat, but the only way I'd try to save them is if there was no risk to my life. Animals do not have a soul. Even the most worthless human has a soul and possibly one day they will come to know Jesus and be saved. No animal can ever do that.


:faint:

:faint:

itisbruno
11-27-2012, 09:23
I am the crazy cat lady!


:tongueout:

:scared:

Kilrain
11-27-2012, 09:26
I would take a hard look at how I would effect a successful rescue resulting in the survival of both of us and go from there. That objective assessment might only take a moment to make, but I'd do it before I simply dove in the water.

I reckon' this same logic would apply to anyone, animal or person, in a similar same situation. If not, it should, right? Even if it was your wife or child, to simply jump in blindly based on emotion with zero chance of either surviving is a pretty dumb thing to do, no?

Kilrain
11-27-2012, 09:28
Based on this post, according to most of GNG...you hate all of your pets and shouldn't even be allowed to own them. :rofl: :supergrin:

:upeyes:

Way to fail at reading comprehension regarding what most people are saying about attempting to rescue a pet. But as long as it suits your argument, carry on......

Rotn1
11-27-2012, 11:41
I know my dog would do everything within her ability to save / defend my life. She would sacrifice herself if required.
I would hope I show the same courage and loyalty for her, if it came to that.
It would haunt me if I did not at least try.

Everyone is entitled to their own opion and ability to live their own lives, to their own standards.

My life, my standards.

Drain You
11-27-2012, 11:47
Hey look, I read a news story online. Listen to my opinion.


LISTEN TO IT.

Brucev
11-27-2012, 12:20
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

Bingo! You are 100% precisely right in every respect. The only survivor of this mess was a single daughter. No dog that ever walked the face of the earth is worth the death of anyone period. I would without hesitation allow any animal to die without regard for whose animal it might be rather than see any man or woman much less minors die trying to save that animal.

Altaris
11-27-2012, 12:59
No dog that ever walked the face of the earth is worth the death of anyone period.

I can think of Many people's lives that I would gladly give up for a dogs life.....like any random jihadist.
Just pick one jihadist at random, and a dog at random....I will pick the dog to live everytime.

Goat 36
11-27-2012, 13:24
Bingo! You are 100% precisely right in every respect. The only survivor of this mess was a single daughter. No dog that ever walked the face of the earth is worth the death of anyone period. I would without hesitation allow any animal to die without regard for whose animal it might be rather than see any man or woman much less minors die trying to save that animal.

It's already been established that the family died trying to save eachother. It was only the boy who, initially, went in after the dog then again, with mom, went in after the father.

Sad story, but they did NOT all die trying to save the dog.

And, for the record, I think it's clear, and fair to say now, that most on this thread do NOT believe dogs are people.

For the most part, people suck.

countrygun
11-27-2012, 13:31
It's already been established that the family died trying to save eachother. It was only the boy who, initially, went in after the dog then again, with mom, went in after the father.

Sad story, but they did NOT all die trying to save the dog.

And, for the record, I think it's clear, and fair to say now, that most on this thread do NOT believe dogs are people.

For the most part, people suck.


Don't confuse them with facts.

Much easier to feel superior and better about yourself if you can claim they were all trying to save the dog.

You see, it isn't just the mainstream media that can distort headlines

badge315
11-27-2012, 13:46
I can think of Many people's lives that I would gladly give up for a dogs life.....like any random jihadist.
Just pick one jihadist at random, and a dog at random....I will pick the dog to live everytime.

Hell, there are people on this thread that I would sacrifice to save a random dog...that bit me. :tongueout:

nmk
11-27-2012, 13:47
Hell, there are people on this thread that I would sacrifice to save a random dog...that bit me. :tongueout:

Now that's funny!

Mayhem like Me
11-27-2012, 13:51
I feel the same way about my cats. What's weird is a few years ago I wasn't a animal person. I even called someone stupid in a old thread that died in the process of trying to save their dog.

Man how things change. I never had pets when I was a kid so I never understood the bond there was to be had with them. One little kitty came into my life and changed that. Now I can't think of life without them.

I would die saving my cats. People can call me what they will but I don't care. I was that person once and believe me I understand that they aren't able to relate or understand how we feel about it. They give us unconditional love and represent everything that us humans should be but often aren't.

I'm glad for and I'm forever grateful to that sweet little kitty that came into my life and changed me forever. God rest him.

You have waaaay too much going in your favor to end up being the crazy cat lady.........


Sorry for your loss...


Get a dog:tongueout:

Mayhem like Me
11-27-2012, 13:55
BTW I see stupid people die in our lake every year by doing things like diving into shallow water, or jumping boat to boat in party cove when they can't swim..This family sure had alot of love for each other so while very sad, it is noble and can show us what unconditional love is, it means giving of yourself for the benefit of others.

Mrs.Cicero
11-27-2012, 14:22
I'm not going back into a burning house, or out into heavy surf to save my dog. He's a DOG. His life isn't worth my daughters growing up motherless. We'd all be sorry if he didn't make it, but we'd be sorrier if an actual human member of the family died trying to save his sorry butt. And he's not about unconditional love. He's about rolling in feces and killing my chickens. I love my chickens more than I love the dog. But I eat them anyway, and enjoy it.

Besides which, the dog hates the water and never chases anything into it.

Brucev
11-27-2012, 14:49
I can think of Many people's lives that I would gladly give up for a dogs life.....like any random jihadist.
Just pick one jihadist at random, and a dog at random....I will pick the dog to live everytime.

A dog is a animal. A jihadist is an enemy. No dog is worth a persons life. A jihadist is just an enemy. He is worth no ones life at all.

Brucev
11-27-2012, 14:53
It's already been established that the family died trying to save eachother. It was only the boy who, initially, went in after the dog then again, with mom, went in after the father.

Sad story, but they did NOT all die trying to save the dog.

And, for the record, I think it's clear, and fair to say now, that most on this thread do NOT believe dogs are people.

For the most part, people suck.

I did not and have not now read all the many posts to this thread. I read and responded to the following post...

That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

Kilrain
11-27-2012, 14:57
A dog is a animal. A jihadist is an enemy. No dog is worth a persons life. A jihadist is just an enemy. He is worth no ones life at all.

:upeyes:

So......a Jihadist is not a person because he is an enemy? That's your logic?

nmk
11-27-2012, 15:15
Bingo! You are 100% precisely right in every respect. The only survivor of this mess was a single daughter. No dog that ever walked the face of the earth is worth the death of anyone period. I would without hesitation allow any animal to die without regard for whose animal it might be rather than see any man or woman much less minors die trying to save that animal.

I can think of Many people's lives that I would gladly give up for a dogs life.....like any random jihadist.
Just pick one jihadist at random, and a dog at random....I will pick the dog to live everytime.

A dog is a animal. A jihadist is an enemy. No dog is worth a persons life. A jihadist is just an enemy. He is worth no ones life at all.

Brucev, do you recognize how poor your logic is?

NeverMore1701
11-27-2012, 15:20
A dog is a animal. A jihadist is an enemy. No dog is worth a persons life. A jihadist is just an enemy. He is worth no ones life at all.

You do have a way of talking yourself into a corner, don't you?

frank4570
11-27-2012, 15:21
Bingo! You are 100% precisely right in every respect. The only survivor of this mess was a single daughter. No dog that ever walked the face of the earth is worth the death of anyone period. I would without hesitation allow any animal to die without regard for whose animal it might be rather than see any man or woman much less minors die trying to save that animal.

There is a long, long, long list of people who deserve to die more than most any dog.
You saying that unrepentant pedophiles are more important that dogs is ridiculous.
I actually don't understand how you think a child murderer is more worth saving than a military combat dog. Maybe you are a little crazy.

countrygun
11-27-2012, 15:33
There is a long, long, long list of people who deserve to die more than most any dog.
You saying that unrepentant pedophiles are more important that dogs is ridiculous.
I actually don't understand how you think a child murderer is more worth saving than a military combat dog. Maybe you are a little crazy.

Pay attention bruce. When frank4570 says "Maybe you are a little crazy" you're getting advice from the horse's mouth.

Foxterriermom
11-27-2012, 15:38
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/408751_420648654649058_191119983_n.jpg

Wil Ufgood
11-27-2012, 15:51
http://cdn.fakingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/winking-dog-250x187.jpg

Just_plinking
11-27-2012, 16:24
To the op, it's so nuts that you would make this thread. Whenever I hear the misquote "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." I always think to myself that dog should be there instead of beer. There are things that are put in front of us to teach certain things. I think dogs are there to teach us about love, joy, and forgiveness.

Just the other day I risked getting my arm bitten off because of my dog. Did I know it was perhaps unwise, yes. Would I do it again, anytime.

JW1178
11-27-2012, 16:32
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?

GreenDrake
11-27-2012, 17:03
Some people have a connection with their dogs, some people shove them out back, treat them as property and complain that they are nothing but problems. I am a dog person, my pooches have all known that, we are family. I can't say that I would sacrifice a family member's safety but if my dog is in trouble, I am there for him, just as he would be for me. Doesn't mean anything other than that, when there's a bond, others sometimes have a tough time relating to the strength of it. My dog would never leave my side, and I will not leave his, should he need me.

singularity35
11-27-2012, 17:39
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?

Touché. :supergrin:

wrczx3
11-27-2012, 18:17
That about sums it up for me, too. I've had many dogs over the years and I loved them all. Your dog is the only animal in the world that would rather be with you than with other dogs. Dog spelled backwards is... and all that. Heck, I even carry "doggy treats" in my glove box... for dogs I've never met.

But, no, they are not humans. I think human life has a much greater value.

Finally someone with common sense. You guys have been watching too many Disney movies that make animals have human like emotions and mannerisms. I get a kick out of people that have said their dog or cat loves them. Fools!

OctoberRust
11-27-2012, 18:35
You make a fallacious assumption. I'm guessing that fnfalman would agree wtih the idea that not all animal life (and not all human life) has the same value.

I wouldn't eat my pets. I wouldn't kill my family. But I would eat some animals and I would kill some people.


Why whenever I log on to this, I see the same folks, generally the ones that are religious make illogical arguments, then I see DD and Falman come on and correct them?

Man, and I thought maybe times have changed for the couple weeks I haven't logged into glocktalk! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Kingarthurhk
11-27-2012, 19:39
The family didn't die trying to save the dog.

The 16 year old boy tried to save the dog, then returned to shore. Good judgment.

The family tried to save each other, the dog was not an issue. Their efforts were valiant, but futile.

The family created the scenario of their own demise. Had they not taught junior that "doggie is people" he would have waved goodbye to doggie like a country boy and everyone would still be alive-even the dog.

Kilrain
11-27-2012, 19:43
The family created the scenario of their own demise. Had they not taught junior that "doggie is people" he would have waved goodbye to doggie like a country boy and everyone would still be alive-even the dog.

:upeyes:

How do you have any idea what they taught their son? You sure are a presumptuous cuss, I'll give you that.

Kingarthurhk
11-27-2012, 19:43
That..... is stupid.

You judge his ethics and priorities based on a flip comment on the web. Accuse him of being vegan because he'd risk himself to save his pet?

I got news for you, I'd risk my life to save my little buddies. Hell, I'd risk YOUR life to save them.

That is is dispicable.


Why?

I love my dogs, they make me feel better after a bad day when they both jump in my lap and burrow their heads into my neck and wiggle with pleasure as I scratch them. You're just another judgmental A-hole in a hat.

I like dogs, I have always owned dogs. But, I am not some yuppie city slicker who can't tell the difference between canine and human. animal and human.

Unlike you, I would gladly let my dog die, if it was a choice between saving a human life, or her life. It isn't that hard.


I know far too many people I wouldn't piddle on if they was on fire, I never met a dog that made me feel that way.

Now you have someone to judge.

Oh, there are a lot of people I dislike in this life. Some of them are still alive because it is illegal and immoral to kill them. However, they still have more value than a dog.

Kilrain
11-27-2012, 19:45
That is is dispicable.

Actually, what he said has more virtue than any of the dribble you've offered up, including your original post.

badge315
11-27-2012, 19:55
That is is dispicable.

Irrisputably.

countrygun
11-27-2012, 19:58
The family created the scenario of their own demise. Had they not taught junior that "doggie is people" he would have waved goodbye to doggie like a country boy and everyone would still be alive-even the dog.

That really ranks up there as asnine statements go,

Did you know the family? did witnesses report the kid yelling "He's human" before he waded into the water?

Suppose a 12 year-old kid waded out to get his sand bucket that got swept out? Would you be saying

"Had they not taught junior that "sand buckets" is people...."?

I have seen kids do the darndest thing without a dog around to blame.

Bren
11-27-2012, 20:04
I don't believe my dogs are people...I would jump in the water to save my dogs, unlike most people.

Kilrain
11-27-2012, 20:09
I don't believe my dogs are people...I would jump in the water to save my dogs, unlike most people.

http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/I+don+t+always+use+this+meme.+But+when+_3b1e8368ef4b6c9297cc9942153d2d85.jpg

I don't always agree with Bren, but when I do, he's 100% right...

HollowHead
11-27-2012, 20:09
That is is dispicable.


Actually, it's rather spot on. HH

JEEPX
11-27-2012, 20:45
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

+1
Love my dogs and a few select family members. Anyone else can burn at the stake. I'll bring the marshmallows.

Sent from Droid Razr Maxx using Tapatalk 2

*ASH*
11-27-2012, 20:49
Irrisputably.


and also

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/KK_Koala/25784489.jpg

TeeJay37
11-27-2012, 21:19
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?

+1


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

eruby
11-28-2012, 06:11
..... Oh, there are a lot of people I dislike in this life. Some of them are still alive because it is illegal and immoral to kill them. However, they still have more value than a dog.This is your opinion. There is nothing wrong with your opinion.

Others have the opinion that there are a lot of people that have less value than a dog. You seem to want them to change their opinion, though I maybe misinterpreting that.

I don't think dogs (or cats) are people, but I'd sure as shootin risk my life to save many dogs and cats before I'd lift a finger to save many people.

Irrisputably discusting FTW! :supergrin:

GWSHARK
11-28-2012, 11:12
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

Santa CruZin
11-28-2012, 11:20
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

Depends on the human. If it were some Taliban vermin scum who killed women and girls for daring to learn to read, then absolutely. Hell, I'd do it to rescue a dog I'd never seen before.

Altaris
11-28-2012, 11:48
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

That question is too vague. It depends on the situation.

If I am walking around the block and some guy runs up and tries to kill my dog, I am going to defend her in the same way I would myself or my child. If that other person dies in the process, so be it.

badge315
11-28-2012, 12:04
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

Hmmm, good question.

I might feed a welfare baby to a starving pit bull. :whistling:

Kilrain
11-28-2012, 12:17
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

Save my dog? Hell, there's a substantial subset of humanity that I'd kill(if I were all powerful) because they simply don't deserve to live. So I'd reckon' the simple answer is yes.

:dunno:

NeverMore1701
11-28-2012, 13:47
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

Depends on the human and the dog, but it's a possibility.

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 13:49
Would risk my life to save my animals.

Can't say the same for people (my job aside.)

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 13:50
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

In the right situation, absolutely.

guns54
11-28-2012, 14:07
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.I feel the same,Have a safe night.

carloglock19
11-28-2012, 14:08
The way I see it and this is just my opinion. There are 3 types of pet owners:

1. Owners who are irresponsible and abusive towards their pets

2. Owners who care, protect and have a sense of responsibility for their pets

3. Owners who idolize their pets to the point of putting a higher than human value on them

I have owned dogs, cats, fish etc. since I was a child but I was brought up with the values of example # 2 and that’s it...nothing more nothing less.

Lonestar 48
11-28-2012, 14:15
Well, I would definitely jump in the water to save two of my three dogs; the third one better wait a day or two before she goes swimming. She pee'd on the floor this morning.

If I saw a cat being carried out by the tide, I might toss some chum out just to see what happened!

Kilrain
11-28-2012, 14:18
The way I see it and this is just my opinion. There are 3 types of pet owners:

1. Owners who are irresponsible and abusive towards their pets

2. Owners who care, protect and have a sense of responsibility for their pets

3. Owners who idolize their pets to the point of putting a higher than human value on them

I have owned dogs, cats, fish etc. since I was a child but I was brought up with the values of example # 2 and that’s it...nothing more nothing less.

You see it this way because it suits your purpose.

You could also say, "Owners that care, protect and have a sense of responsibility not just for, but to, their pets while also recognizing that humanity if full of unspeakably evil people whose life value is far less than that of a good pet and more likely to be on par with dung." I guess that'd be about 2.5 on your scale?

Bren
11-28-2012, 14:47
The way I see it and this is just my opinion. There are 3 types of pet owners:

1. Owners who are irresponsible and abusive towards their pets

2. Owners who care, protect and have a sense of responsibility for their pets

3. Owners who idolize their pets to the point of putting a higher than human value on them

I have owned dogs, cats, fish etc. since I was a child but I was brought up with the values of example # 2 and that’s it...nothing more nothing less.

Or my group:

4. People who places very little importance on human life, regardless of comparisons with animals.

md2lgyk
11-28-2012, 14:50
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

Then you're a messed-up human being. We have no pets now, though used to have a cat or two in the past. They are animals, no more, no less. And I hate (HATE) dogs; would pay money to shoot them.

Kilrain
11-28-2012, 14:53
Then you're a messed-up human being. We have no pets now, though used to have a cat or two in the past. They are animals, no more, no less. And I hate (HATE) dogs; would pay money to shoot them.

:upeyes:

You should seek psychological help.

janice6
11-28-2012, 14:54
The family created the scenario of their own demise. Had they not taught junior that "doggie is people" he would have waved goodbye to doggie like a country boy and everyone would still be alive-even the dog.


I don't share your "Opinion".

Ironbar
11-28-2012, 15:01
It's just Darwinism at work.

countrygun
11-28-2012, 15:31
The way I see it and this is just my opinion. There are 3 types of pet owners:

1. Owners who are irresponsible and abusive towards their pets

2. Owners who care, protect and have a sense of responsibility for their pets

3. Owners who idolize their pets to the point of putting a higher than human value on them

I have owned dogs, cats, fish etc. since I was a child but I was brought up with the values of example # 2 and that’s it...nothing more nothing less.

You "#3" has a serious flaw.

There is no "absolute" value to a human life. If, for instance, a person decides to become a suicide bomber, they haven't put a high enough value on their own life to make if worthwhile for someone else to cae if they live or not. The same with a low life criminal, a child murderer has decided that his life is not of the same value as, say, a pediatrician.

Simply because one is born does not guarantee that one's life has more value than that of a good dog, or in some cases, a "bad" dog. I certainly wouldn't let the FT. Hood shooter live at the cost of my dog's life, and sometimes the dog REALLY PO's me.

Critias
11-28-2012, 15:36
The family created the scenario of their own demise. Had they not taught junior that "doggie is people" he would have waved goodbye to doggie like a country boy and everyone would still be alive-even the dog.
You don't know a thing about this family, and the only scenario being created is the one you are making up in your own head. You imagine yourself as surrounded by no good city slicker yuppies, you put words in their mouths (while ignoring their arguments), and you've decided -- on your own, in you imagination -- how this tragedy went down. People have explained to you again and again how this family didn't die trying to save a dog, and you've ignored them with all the maturity and intellect of a four year old covering their ears and shouting "LA LA LA I can't hear you."

You're the only one who's insisted this family raised their children to believe a dog is as valuable as a human. If that's how they raise their kids, why didn't the daughter jump in, too? If that's how they raise their kids, why did the son give up on saving their dog? If the family believes dogs are worth as much as humans, why didn't they all jump in when the doggie hit the water?

The plain truth is that they didn't. A 16 year old boy, somewhat impetuously (as we expect from 16 year old boys) lost something in the water that was precious to him, and decided to jump in after it. That's what 16 year old boys do, they make poor decisions on the spur of the moment. It doesn't matter that it was a dog. It could have been an expensive pair of sunglasses, it could have been a set of keys on a floatie keyring, hell, the kid might have been dared to go for a swim (because, again, that's what teenagers do).

Everything that happened after that -- everything -- wasn't about a dog or about those kids being raised poorly, it was about a family that loved each other and tried to save one another from dangerous waters. And that? That is nobility. "Greater love hath no man," ringing any bells?

It's pretty execrable, twisting what happened and insulting their memory this way, just to start an argument on the internet.

Then you're a messed-up human being. We have no pets now, though used to have a cat or two in the past. They are animals, no more, no less. And I hate (HATE) dogs; would pay money to shoot them.
Yeah. You would pay money to shoot dogs, and the other guy is a messed up human being? You've got a few wires crossed, buddy.

It's just Darwinism at work.
This is a family that died leaping into the ocean to try and save one another, and you're doing to sully it with something so crass and banal as that, to try and earn a few internet tough guy points? Shame on you. Plain and simple: shame.

And to those who insist an animal isn't worth another human being's life -- any human being's life -- with such absolution? Bullcrap. How many of you also insist you'd use lethal force on someone who was trying to rob you (so that a wallet is worth someone's life)? How many of you also say you'd use lethal force on a stranger in your house (so that your sense of fear, but mostly your property rights, are worth someone's life)? There are lots of things society decides are worth a human being's life, depending on the scenario. And if it's a human being freely choosing, of their own volition, to risk their life in order to save something precious to them -- why does it matter if that "something" is a dog? It's their life. They can try to save whoever, or whatever, they want with it.

countrygun
11-28-2012, 16:18
"Critias",

well said.

Lone Wolf8634
11-28-2012, 16:51
That is is dispicable.

:crying:Cry me a river.



I like dogs, I have always owned dogs. But, I am not some yuppie city slicker who can't tell the difference between canine and human. animal and human.

:rofl::rofl:Humans are animals.

Unlike you, I would gladly let my dog die, if it was a choice between saving a human life, or her life. It isn't that hard.

We've already established that we are nothing alike.



Oh, there are a lot of people I dislike in this life. Some of them are still alive because it is illegal and immoral to kill them. However, they still have more value than a dog.

The arrogance of the human animal never fails to amaze me.

Kingarthurhk
11-28-2012, 17:16
:crying:Cry me a river.

Not crying, but astonished by weirdos.




:rofl::rofl:Humans are animals.

The other white meat?:upeyes:



We've already established that we are nothing alike.

Which I am thanful for.




The arrogance of the human animal never fails to amaze me.

Indeed, mixed with depravity and plain breathtaking foolishness.

Kingarthurhk
11-28-2012, 17:20
:upeyes:

How do you have any idea what they taught their son? You sure are a presumptuous cuss, I'll give you that.

If that value hadn't been taught, he wouldn't have risked his life for a dog.

Kingarthurhk
11-28-2012, 17:20
Well, I would definitely jump in the water to save two of my three dogs; the third one better wait a day or two before she goes swimming. She pee'd on the floor this morning.

If I saw a cat being carried out by the tide, I might toss some chum out just to see what happened!

The irony is, you would have died and they would have lived.

Goat 36
11-28-2012, 17:20
Would anyone kill a human to save their dog?

The interesting thing about this question, to me, is that, if I'm not mistaken, you would be completely within your legal rights to shoot and/or kill somebody who was attempting to harm/kill your dog.

What does this say about society's acceptance of dogs as family members?

And I, myself, would not hesitate.

Wallet, vehicle, etc.-I'd simply hand it over if they got the drop on me.

If they tried to harm or 'take' my dog?

"Here we go!!"

I'd take my chances expecting some inevitable loss of blood, possibly broken bones or worse.

Kingarthurhk
11-28-2012, 17:21
Why whenever I log on to this, I see the same folks, generally the ones that are religious make illogical arguments, then I see DD and Falman come on and correct them?

Man, and I thought maybe times have changed for the couple weeks I haven't logged into glocktalk! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

This has to do with stupidity, not religion.

TeeJay37
11-28-2012, 17:28
The interesting thing about this question, to me, is that, if I'm not mistaken, you would be completely within your legal rights to shoot and/or kill somebody who was attempting to harm/kill your dog.


I don't think this is correct in all areas. I'm pretty sure here(Louisiana) your dog is your "property" and you don't have a right to deadly force to protect it.

NeverMore1701
11-28-2012, 17:34
SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Someone tries to harm or take my pets, and it's on.

md2lgyk
11-28-2012, 17:39
:upeyes:

You should seek psychological help.

That's your opinion. I respectfully disagree. And no, I don't need psychological help - those who assign human attributes to pets (i.e., furries) are the ones needing help.

*ASH*
11-28-2012, 17:43
Someone tries to harm or take my pets, and it's on.

cuzz.......

countrygun
11-28-2012, 17:44
I don't think this is correct in all areas. I'm pretty sure here(Louisiana) your dog is your "property" and you don't have a right to deadly force to protect it.

You are wrong.

I many States you can.

TeeJay37
11-28-2012, 18:28
You are wrong.

I many States you can.

Am I wrong about Louisiana? Or the entire statement?

countrygun
11-28-2012, 18:45
Am I wrong about Louisiana? Or the entire statement?

According to this site and their interpretation,

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Louisiana-Gun-Laws.htm





"Louisiana’s castle law permits the use of physical force to protect one’s self and property from “forcible crimes” and the use of deadly force in situations where circumstances are sufficient “to excite the fear of a reasonable person that there would be serious danger to his own life or person if he attempted to prevent the felony without the killing.” The statute has a “stand your ground” clause in that it does not require victims to retreat before using force, whether they’re inside their home or any other place they have a right to be."

Kilrain
11-28-2012, 19:05
If that value hadn't been taught, he wouldn't have risked his life for a dog.

:upeyes:

Once again, a gigantic assumption that continues to make an ass out of you and.........well, you.

Kilrain
11-28-2012, 19:08
That's your opinion. I respectfully disagree. And no, I don't need psychological help - those who assign human attributes to pets (i.e., furries) are the ones needing help.

:upeyes:

You're the one who wants to pay to shoot/kill domesticated dogs because you "hate" them. Pretty sure that aligns you with some of the most well known serial killers........good job!

countrygun
11-28-2012, 19:13
Then you're a messed-up human being. We have no pets now, though used to have a cat or two in the past. They are animals, no more, no less. And I hate (HATE) dogs; would pay money to shoot them.

Oh well, who needs objectivity to render a useful opinion?

get Help Dude.

Bren
11-28-2012, 19:28
Then you're a messed-up human being. We have no pets now, though used to have a cat or two in the past. They are animals, no more, no less. And I hate (HATE) dogs; would pay money to shoot them.

I'd pay money to shoot people who'd pay money to shoot dogs...literally true. We all have our own point of view.

IndianaMatt
11-28-2012, 19:32
Cheers

Annoyedgrunt
11-28-2012, 19:36
You don't know a thing about this family, and the only scenario being created is the one you are making up in your own head. You imagine yourself as surrounded by no good city slicker yuppies, you put words in their mouths (while ignoring their arguments), and you've decided -- on your own, in you imagination -- how this tragedy went down. People have explained to you again and again how this family didn't die trying to save a dog, and you've ignored them with all the maturity and intellect of a four year old covering their ears and shouting "LA LA LA I can't hear you."

You're the only one who's insisted this family raised their children to believe a dog is as valuable as a human. If that's how they raise their kids, why didn't the daughter jump in, too? If that's how they raise their kids, why did the son give up on saving their dog? If the family believes dogs are worth as much as humans, why didn't they all jump in when the doggie hit the water?

The plain truth is that they didn't. A 16 year old boy, somewhat impetuously (as we expect from 16 year old boys) lost something in the water that was precious to him, and decided to jump in after it. That's what 16 year old boys do, they make poor decisions on the spur of the moment. It doesn't matter that it was a dog. It could have been an expensive pair of sunglasses, it could have been a set of keys on a floatie keyring, hell, the kid might have been dared to go for a swim (because, again, that's what teenagers do).

Everything that happened after that -- everything -- wasn't about a dog or about those kids being raised poorly, it was about a family that loved each other and tried to save one another from dangerous waters. And that? That is nobility. "Greater love hath no man," ringing any bells?

It's pretty execrable, twisting what happened and insulting their memory this way, just to start an argument on the internet.


Yeah. You would pay money to shoot dogs, and the other guy is a messed up human being? You've got a few wires crossed, buddy.


This is a family that died leaping into the ocean to try and save one another, and you're doing to sully it with something so crass and banal as that, to try and earn a few internet tough guy points? Shame on you. Plain and simple: shame.

And to those who insist an animal isn't worth another human being's life -- any human being's life -- with such absolution? Bullcrap. How many of you also insist you'd use lethal force on someone who was trying to rob you (so that a wallet is worth someone's life)? How many of you also say you'd use lethal force on a stranger in your house (so that your sense of fear, but mostly your property rights, are worth someone's life)? There are lots of things society decides are worth a human being's life, depending on the scenario. And if it's a human being freely choosing, of their own volition, to risk their life in order to save something precious to them -- why does it matter if that "something" is a dog? It's their life. They can try to save whoever, or whatever, they want with it.

This deserves a repost. Crit, it's good to see you in the lounge again, it's been a while. And with threads like this, it's no wonder you've been absent.

:wavey:

ray9898
11-28-2012, 19:41
What a strage take on this event. First, how do you conclude they equated the dog with a human? Second, how to you make the jump they knew jumping in the water was life threatening? The teen getting into crisis in the water is when the severity of the situation became apparent, the family then perished trying to save each other.

countrygun
11-28-2012, 19:51
And animals don't listen to Glenn Beck.

Or vote Democrat

Cavalry Doc
11-28-2012, 19:55
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

Wow.


No, I would not equate my dogs to my children, but my dogs are my friends. They have proven that they will jeopardize themselves for me and the kids already. They are my friends, and I am theirs.

I would not risk the death of one of my kids to save one of my dogs, but I might seriously consider serious injury to myself to save them if I thought I had a decent chance of getting away with it. I'd choose their lives over that of a human home invader in a heartbeat. In that, the lives of my dogs are worth more than some human lives.

countrygun
11-28-2012, 20:00
Wow.


No, I would not equate my dogs to my children, but my dogs are my friends. They have proven that they will jeopardize themselves for me and the kids already. They are my friends, and I am theirs.

I would not risk the death of one of my kids to save one of my dogs, but I might seriously consider serious injury to myself to save them if I thought I had a decent chance of getting away with it. I'd choose their lives over that of a human home invader in a heartbeat. In that, the lives of my dogs are worth more than some human lives.


I think the OP was trying to say that, when the family realized one of them had gone in after the dog, they should have said "Oh well, if the kid is that dumb the gene pool is better off", and not tried to save him.

Kilrain
11-28-2012, 20:00
Wow.


No, I would not equate my dogs to my children, but my dogs are my friends. They have proven that they will jeopardize themselves for me and the kids already. They are my friends, and I am theirs.

I would not risk the death of one of my kids to save one of my dogs, but I might seriously consider serious injury to myself to save them if I thought I had a decent chance of getting away with it. I'd choose their lives over that of a human home invader in a heartbeat. In that, the lives of my dogs are worth more than some human lives.

Stop being reasonable and taking a rational approach to assigning value to things, that just won't do according to the OP and a select few folks who spent one too many weekends in the basement pulling the wings off of flys.....(you know who you are md2lgyk)......

:cool:

tantrix
11-28-2012, 20:08
I would not risk the death of one of my kids to save one of my dogs, but I might seriously consider serious injury to myself to save them if I thought I had a decent chance of getting away with it.

I see where you're coming from...and that sounds pretty reasonable.

If you have any children, they would likely disagree with that though, simply because they care for you more than any dog.

I have 4 Catahoula Leopard dogs that I use to hunt hogs, all of which are approaching 10 years old now. I love them to death, my kids love them to death, and they'd die for me in the woods (a couple almost have). However, my kids want and need me here more than they need those dogs, so if there's even a chance my life would be at risk or I might end up a cripple trying to save one of them...it's just not happening.

TeeJay37
11-28-2012, 20:15
According to this site and their interpretation,

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Louisiana-Gun-Laws.htm





"Louisiana’s castle law permits the use of physical force to protect one’s self and property from “forcible crimes” and the use of deadly force in situations where circumstances are sufficient “to excite the fear of a reasonable person that there would be serious danger to his own life or person if he attempted to prevent the felony without the killing.” The statute has a “stand your ground” clause in that it does not require victims to retreat before using force, whether they’re inside their home or any other place they have a right to be."

Okay, that makes since. Thanks. I suppose if someone is nuts enough come and shoot my dog while I'm throwing the ball with him, heat just be nuts enough to do the same toe, so I suppose that would cause a reasonable man to fear for his life.

tantrix
11-28-2012, 20:24
Okay, that makes since. Thanks. I suppose if someone is nuts enough come and shoot my dog while I'm throwing the ball with him, heat just be nuts enough to do the same toe, so I suppose that would cause a reasonable man to fear for his life.

Well, if he's opened fire on your dog in close proximity to you, the dog means nothing at that point...you can shoot him in self-defense of yourself because he's clearly nuts.

It's been stated several times that LA self-defense laws are the best in the country. Lethal force is authorized anytime to prevent a "forcible felony". That means against you, or even to protect someone else. Many people who don't know what a forcible felony is have asked me what that means.

The way I explain it to them is: If the person you're seeing would be justified in using a firearm to defend themselves at that moment, you are authorized to use your firearm on their behalf to save their life.

countrygun
11-28-2012, 20:30
Okay, that makes since. Thanks. I suppose if someone is nuts enough come and shoot my dog while I'm throwing the ball with him, heat just be nuts enough to do the same toe, so I suppose that would cause a reasonable man to fear for his life.

Y'all have comprehension issues doncha?

You need to find someone who can spell out your State's laws for you.

If you had an incorrect idea about when you COULDN'T use deadly force (and a stranger on the internet had to correct you) then it is reasonable to assume your idea of when you CAN use deadly force might be equally as flawed.

that's what some folks call "a bad thing".

certifiedfunds
11-28-2012, 20:30
What does my being a carnivore have to do with my pets?

Do you eat your pets on a regular basis?

My pets give me comfort and entertainment. My pets don't vote for Democrats or Republicans. My pets don't go and rape & kill others because of religious beliefs.

I had a daschund that would rape any stuffed animal he could get his paws on.

countrygun
11-28-2012, 20:41
Well, if he's opened fire on your dog in close proximity to you, the dog means nothing at that point...you can shoot him in self-defense of yourself because he's clearly nuts.

It's been stated several times that LA self-defense laws are the best in the country. Lethal force is authorized anytime to prevent a "forcible felony". That means against you, or even to protect someone else. Many people who don't know what a forcible felony is have asked me what that means.

The way I explain it to them is: If the person you're seeing would be justified in using a firearm to defend themselves at that moment, you are authorized to use your firearm on their behalf to save their life.

I was wondering about the way the Statute was written because it seems to imply that you can use force to prevent an assault against yourself or property and Deadly force against a felonious attempt at same sooo,

If the "other party uses, or threatens to use force in the comission of an assault against you or your property that would raise the level of their actions TO a felony, ergo deadly force would be justified.

BicycleDay43
11-28-2012, 20:44
I think it'd be accurate to say that anyone as cold as the op has a problem understanding the concept of unconditional love. Essentially, their senses of awareness need to be augmented a bit before they can feel that sort of love, since their sense of love is limited to other humans.

Sent from the bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer

TeeJay37
11-28-2012, 20:57
Y'all have comprehension issues doncha?

You need to find someone who can spell out your State's laws for you.

If you had an incorrect idea about when you COULDN'T use deadly force (and a stranger on the internet had to correct you) then it is reasonable to assume your idea of when you CAN use deadly force might be equally as flawed.

that's what some folks call "a bad thing".

Well, seeing as how my info was based on my CHP instructor saying "You can't shoot someone that shot your dog", I'd say that my first statement was pretty accurate, but your quote made since. I'm definitely not going to take some stranger on the internet's comment as stone cold legal fact. Of course I'll look into it myself. And who are "y'all"? I'm one man.

TeeJay37
11-28-2012, 21:02
The way I explain it to them is: If the person you're seeing would be justified in using a firearm to defend themselves at that moment, you are authorized to use your firearm on their behalf to save their life.

That's almost the exact quote.

http://legis.state.la.us/lss/newwin.asp?doc=78358

countrygun
11-28-2012, 21:05
Well, seeing as how my info was based on my CHP instructor saying "You can't shoot someone that shot your dog", I'd say that my first statement was pretty accurate, but your quote made since. I'm definitely not going to take some stranger on the internet's comment as stone cold legal fact. Of course I'll look into it myself. And who are "y'all"? I'm one man.

I have a heck of a feeling that the instructor was saying "you can't shoot someone because they shot your dog".

That is, of course, a different issue.

Cavalry Doc
11-28-2012, 21:14
I see where you're coming from...and that sounds pretty reasonable.

If you have any children, they would likely disagree with that though, simply because they care for you more than any dog.

I have 4 Catahoula Leopard dogs that I use to hunt hogs, all of which are approaching 10 years old now. I love them to death, my kids love them to death, and they'd die for me in the woods (a couple almost have). However, my kids want and need me here more than they need those dogs, so if there's even a chance my life would be at risk or I might end up a cripple trying to save one of them...it's just not happening.

I have a pointer and a mut that looks like a miniature german shepherd, but with a meaner attitude.

I've killed well over 200 feral hogs over the last 3 years. Trapping, in fields, and at feeders. We don't use the dogs, they are better suited for birds.

If I thought I could get away with it, I'd still take a reasonable risk. I've risked a lot more for people I didn't know in the past. I guess it's all relative, and about personal choices.

Hard to be certain without being put in that position.

Cavalry Doc
11-28-2012, 21:15
I have a heck of a feeling that the instructor was saying "you can't shoot someone because they shot your dog".

That is, of course, a different issue.

You can use deadly force in the protection of tangible property here in Texas, against theft OR damage.

just sayin'

countrygun
11-28-2012, 21:19
You can use deadly force in the protection of tangible property here in Texas, against theft OR damage.

just sayin'

But if you come home and find that your neighbor shot your dog you cannot go to the neighbor's house and shoot him.

Of coourse you are talking about Texas so I may be on shakey ground

just sayin


:rofl:

tantrix
11-28-2012, 21:30
I have a heck of a feeling that the instructor was saying "you can't shoot someone because they shot your dog".

That is, of course, a different issue.

Well, of course...they would have to be in the process of shooting your dog, and it would also have to be on your property though as LA has leash laws. If your dog is in somebody elses yard outside city limits, it's fair game and you can't do much about it.

Cavalry Doc
11-28-2012, 21:34
But if you come home and find that your neighbor shot your dog you cannot go to the neighbor's house and shoot him.

Of coourse you are talking about Txas so I may be on shaky ground

just sayin


:rofl:

Kinda depends on how that conversation goes when you "talk" to him about it.

I would make it my personal mission in life to ensure that someone that hurts one of my dogs like that lives a long and miserable life. I have enough assets to keep him in and out of court for years.

Critias
11-29-2012, 02:25
This deserves a repost. Crit, it's good to see you in the lounge again, it's been a while. And with threads like this, it's no wonder you've been absent.

:wavey:
It's appreciated, Grunt, and nice to be back. And threads like this is just the internet bein' the internet, nothing to take too personally or log off over. My absence has been more to do with that annoying "real life" stuff keeping me busy (grad school and being a professor and a freelance writer all take a lot of work, who knew?!). :supergrin:

The worst part of all this in my opinion, the ugliest bits of the nonchalance and utter lack of empathy or sympathy being spewed by the OP, is his avatar and sig-lines.

Java Junky
11-29-2012, 02:34
'Godda real dog who's got your back?
Damn straight I've got his.
Izz'ee people?
Duzz'ee look like @*#&in' people?
But that really ain't the point . . izz'itt?

NeverMore1701
11-29-2012, 02:53
'Godda real dog who's got your back?
Damn straight I've got his.
Izz'ee people?
Duzz'ee look like @*#&in' people?
But that really ain't the point . . izz'itt?

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg

OMEGA5
11-29-2012, 05:04
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

Exactly!
Dano

kirgi08
11-29-2012, 05:41
I trust my K9s more than I do folk.I've got over 400lbs worth of K9s.'08. :upeyes:

RayB
11-29-2012, 07:00
The worst part of all this in my opinion, the ugliest bits of the nonchalance and utter lack of empathy or sympathy being spewed by the OP, is his avatar and sig-lines.


Hard to believe he was somebody's baby once...

Check out the Recipient's List in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickin_Medal

And that’s just the Brits, folks! The French have their own medal of honor, as do we...

By the bye, there is an error in the report via the above-referenced link... GI Joe saved an estimated 1000-Lives in his historic mission, not 100... Evidently, the person transcribing this information assumed the real number had to be a typo... And yes, he averaged a mile-a-minute...

See paragraph 13 in this more recent reference:

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/11/06/coded-wwii-message-found-on-pigeon-remains/print

Attached are pics of my dearest friend for the past 18-years... I've had dogs and cats, and loved them dearly, but they have nothing on my Bernie.

Wrapped in a towel, and so sick the camera flash didn't even wake him up, Bernie was sent home to die in July of 2010... But he was nonetheless here to celebrate New Year's 2012 with us!

And yes, he's right beside me, right now, as I type this! The effort, research, and expense to make this happen, astonished our vet and his staff, as well as rehabbers in the US and in the UK, while Judy and I didn't think twice about doing any of it. To us at least, there was no alternative!

--Ray

P.S. If there's no place in heaven for Bernie, then they can give my place to someone else!

GWSHARK
11-29-2012, 09:20
Ok, show of hands... who loves their dog more than they love their wife?

Arc Angel
11-29-2012, 10:18
Why whenever I log on to (SIC) this, I see the same folks, generally the ones that are religious make illogical arguments, then I see DD and Falman come on and correct them?

Man, and I thought maybe times have changed for the couple weeks I haven't logged into glocktalk! (SIC) :rofl::rofl::rofl:

:supergrin: Cute. Really cute! This reply reminds me of an interesting anecdote someone once told me about skeptics and how they get that way: You see there was this fellow who was born, ‘dirt stupid’. As he was growing up all the other kids in the neighborhood didn’t want to play with him because they realized he was stupid enough to be a danger to both himself, AND to others as well.

In school the teachers always made him sit at the back of the classroom where he would have as little negative influence as possible over the brighter, more promising, students. None of the girls would go out with him, either; and he couldn’t get a date (at least, not with a girl) for any of the school dances.

This sorry dolt used to mope around a lot; and, when he wasn’t doing something like sitting on the bench, and counting his toes during football games, (Because the Coach and the rest of the team couldn’t trust him to run the ball in the right direction.) he’d, most often, pass the time by hiding underneath the bleachers, and smoking, ‘weed’. Problem was that sometimes he’d accidentally burn his nose instead of the joint; and, once, he even set the bleachers on fire; but, fortunately for all parties involved, the field wasn’t being used at the time!

Then, one day, an epiphany suddenly occurred in this young idiot’s sad ‘n sorry life. Unfortunately for the rest of mankind a parish priest noticed this, 'sad sack', and decided that he ought to, at least, try to help out. The good father went over to the bench, sat down next to the kid, and did his best to cheer him up. In the mistaken belief that we’re all God’s children, this ingenuous priest offered to give someone he, otherwise, recognized as a genuinely stupid kid benefit of his acumen, and help poor, 'monkey boy' to, ‘get a life’ for himself.

After a brief exchange of pleasantries, and with his confidence won, this, ‘moron cum laude’ confessed that he had been born stupid, had no friends, nobody ever looked up to him, and even his parents used to go on vacation without him. So, the good father, now feeling truly sorry for this genuinely god-forsaken creature, thought a moment before replying, ‘Take heart, my son!’ ‘I know how you can persuade lots and lots of people to respect and admire you.’ ‘In school, become a skeptic - Doubt and question absolutely everything!’ ‘No matter what any of the teachers say, always find a way to contradict them; got it?’

The lad’s eyes grew wide; and he replied, ‘Yes, Father, from now on I’ll question everything that everybody tells me and take any opportunity that presents itself to be a loudmouthed contrarian to whatever else is said.’ The priest patted the boy on the head; and said with self-satisfied approval, ‘Attaboy, my son. Attaboy!’ ‘Learn to play this part well; and nobody will ever realize that mud bricks have a greater ability for abstract reasoning than you do!’ The young man thought for a moment, before asking, ‘What’s an abstract reason?’ The priest assured him that he didn’t need to know; and left him sitting there practicing his newfound ability to appear to be smart with the comment, ‘See you in church this Sunday, my son.’

To which, ‘Sonny Boy’ replied, ‘Church?’ ‘Why would I want to go to church, Father?’ Aghast, the priest said, ‘Why, in order to commune with God, my son, and save your mortal soul from your own sinful nature and grievous personal disposition.’ The lad looked perplexed, and scratched his head before replying, ‘But, Father, there is no God; and what evidence can you show me to prove that the soul even exists?’ Shocked, and disbelieving his own ears, the now too helpful priest took a step backwards, looked at the young man in disbelief, and remarked, ‘Deus Meus!’ ‘Mea Culpa; mea culpa!’

The lad scratched his head again, rolled his eyes inside their sockets, and commented, ‘What’s the matter, Father?’ ‘I’m doing what you told me to do; aren’t I?’ ‘This is how to be a Skeptic; isn’t it!’ ‘Yes, my son,’ replied the priest. ‘You have, indeed, become a skeptic!’ ‘Only, now, you’re the worst kind of skeptic - You’ve become a smug, arrogant, self-righteous, and self-assuming atheist!’ ‘Your very soul, itself, is now in jeopardy of being lost!’

Suddenly the young man’s face lit up; he smiled from ear-to-ear; and said, ‘Naaa, I’ve got this skeptic crap down pat; don’t I, Father!’ ‘You know what?’ ‘It feels good; I don’t need nobody for nothing, anymore.’ ‘This skeptic thing really does make my personal, ‘cool quotient’ go way up!’ :freak:

As the old priest walked away he shook his head from side-to-side, held one hand up in the air to wave, and shouted over his shoulder, ‘Be very careful, my son!’ ‘Man was never meant to answer to himself, alone.’

kat1950
11-29-2012, 17:35
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.


I have to agree with you on this one.

Kingarthurhk
11-29-2012, 17:46
I think the OP was trying to say that, when the family realized one of them had gone in after the dog, they should have said "Oh well, if the kid is that dumb the gene pool is better off", and not tried to save him.

Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.

countrygun
11-29-2012, 18:15
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.

You a assuming something is "obvious" merely to fit your agenda. It is not "obvious" that he was taught that dogs are human.

He might care for animals enough to have taken the risk, knowing they aren't "Human", but just because he cared.

or

He might just as well have gone after some object that was being washed out because he didn't want it to get washed out, no thinking it was "human" at all. Living right at the ocean I have seen many people go out further than they really should for many reasons, a freaking beach towel for instance. I am sure they didn't think the beach towel was "human"

You don't really know squat about his motives, you just jumped on the report and interpreted it in a way that fit your beliefs.

I dare you to prove that he thought the dog was "human".

AZson
11-29-2012, 18:46
The are a few people that I would rescue a animal first before them, obama comes to mind about right now.

TeeJay37
11-29-2012, 18:53
Ray, would you mind sharing more about Bernie's story? PM if necessary. If not, I understand.

snowcrash75
11-29-2012, 18:53
I trust my K9s more than I do folk.I've got over 400lbs worth of K9s.'08. :upeyes:

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/1523627_o.gif

Lone Wolf8634
11-29-2012, 18:57
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.

ASSumptions can really make you look like an....ASS.

Bren
11-29-2012, 18:59
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.

Not to get too far off topic, but how come christians are always so afraid of dying, anyhow? I sometimes wonder if being a christian makes you more afraid of death, or if being afraid of death makes you a christian. All I know is, it seems like they/you sure worry about it a lot.

singularity35
11-29-2012, 19:02
Not to get too far off topic, but how come christians are always so afraid of dying, anyhow? I sometimes wonder if being a christian makes you more afraid of death, or if being afraid of death makes you a christian. All I know is, it seems like they/you sure worry about it a lot.

Hehe, because we 'uns are afraid of going to hell when we die. We just know we had too much fun while we lived. :rofl:

Altaris
11-29-2012, 19:11
I think it'd be accurate to say that anyone as cold as the op has a problem understanding the concept of unconditional love. Essentially, their senses of awareness need to be augmented a bit before they can feel that sort of love, since their sense of love is limited to other humans.

Sent from the bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer


That is because the op was taught a set of values from a fictional book. Those made him into an uncaring person when it comes to all of our cousins that inhabit this planet with us.

Gunhaver
11-29-2012, 19:30
Cheers to that. And I would double whatever money you'd put in.

To the "animals are less than people" crowd: read the headlines from your local newspaper. There are more people in there acting like animals.

Animals don't put babies in microwaves, don't open concentration camps, don't kill for pleasure, don't invent nuclear weapons, don't invent thousands of religions and kill one another in the name of their myths, and they most certainly don't destroy the very earth they depend on for life.

I'd say much of the human race behaves far more disgustingly than any dog I've ever known.

And animals don't listen to Glenn Beck.

I usually agree with most everything you say but I have to take issue with the "animals are better than humans" mindset. Animals are limited only by their intellect, not by some superior moral structure. Lions kill newborn cubs of rival lions just to get the females back into heat again. Many predators routinely torture their prey to death just out of fun. Life in the wild is a constant SHTF situation with every critter for itself.

Animals don't invent nukes and have religious wars because they're not advanced enough. I have no doubt that my cat would toss a hand grenade in the aquarium if he could and it would get him what he wants. There's no honor among animals.

But given that humans are animals too we can give ourselves a pat on the back for every thoughtful thing we do.

countrygun
11-29-2012, 19:36
I usually agree with most everything you say but I have to take issue with the "animals are better than humans" mindset. Animals are limited only by their intellect, not by some superior moral structure. Lions kill newborn cubs of rival lions just to get the females back into heat again. Many predators routinely torture their prey to death just out of fun. Life in the wild is a constant SHTF situation with every critter for itself.

Animals don't invent nukes and have religious wars because they're not advanced enough. I have no doubt that my cat would toss a hand grenade in the aquarium if he could and it would get him what he wants. There's no honor among animals.

But given that humans are animals too we can give ourselves a pat on the back for every thoughtful thing we do.


I am not too sure about the intent of your post. But.

We've seen mothers kill their children so they could go ut and party.

Jeffery Dahmer torured his prey.


My bird dog seems to congratulate herself with a joy roll when she retrieves successfully

so were you trying to make a distinction or trying not to?

tantrix
11-29-2012, 20:03
I usually agree with most everything you say but I have to take issue with the "animals are better than humans" mindset. Animals are limited only by their intellect, not by some superior moral structure. Lions kill newborn cubs of rival lions just to get the females back into heat again. Many predators routinely torture their prey to death just out of fun. Life in the wild is a constant SHTF situation with every critter for itself.

Animals don't invent nukes and have religious wars because they're not advanced enough. I have no doubt that my cat would toss a hand grenade in the aquarium if he could and it would get him what he wants. There's no honor among animals.

But given that humans are animals too we can give ourselves a pat on the back for every thoughtful thing we do.


Great post.

I think it's because most people today think the 'animal kingdom' is represented by their 2 labs sleeping and farting on the living room floor while they watch TV at night. Reality shows us that animals are every bit as brutal as we are.

I don't buy the "animals are worth more than humans" bit, but I grew up in the swamps of South LA, not some suburban concrete jungle. Spend a week out here with me and you won't think animals are as 'caring' as you did before.

Gunhaver
11-29-2012, 21:35
I am not too sure about the intent of your post. But.

We've seen mothers kill their children so they could go ut and party.

Jeffery Dahmer torured his prey.


My bird dog seems to congratulate herself with a joy roll when she retrieves successfully

so were you trying to make a distinction or trying not to?
Yep, we see humans acting like animals and animals acting like humans wherever we chose to draw that conclusion and yet some find it so hard to believe that we have common ancestors.
In my personal opinion the only difference between humans and all the other animals is genetic. If you heard a story about a woman actually cannibalizing her husband while they had sex you might think it's one of the most disgusting and depraved things you've ever heard, until you read the whole story and found out it was a pair of praying mantises. They get a pass for it and we still think they're cool as hell catching bugs by the porch light.

Find me a sick depraved act of human behavior and I'll find something similar in the animal kingdom and vice versa. Animal or human, there's not really much of a distinction at all. I used to think maybe it was air conditioning. That could be the point where we became something special. Then I read about termite mounds.

Altaris
11-29-2012, 21:46
Find me a sick depraved act of human behavior and I'll find something similar in the animal kingdom and vice versa. Animal or human, there's not really much of a distinction at all. I used to think maybe it was air conditioning. That could be the point where we became something special. Then I read about termite mounds.

Just look at a group of monkeys, or lions, or any other social pack animals. They get along fine until it comes time to mate. Then you have 2 (or more) males that have lived together most of their lives fighting, sometimes to the death, over who gets to have sex with the female.
Now go to any random bar across the country and you can see the same thing with people. Two dudes getting mad over some girl and starting a fight...sometimes ending in death. Mating/sex is one of the driving forces of everything in nature.

Critias
11-29-2012, 22:09
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
You continue to state this interpretation of events as though it's the only possible way it could have happened, and continue to pointedly ignore those who are pointing out all manner of other reasons that young man might have jumped in the water to save his dog. There is absolutely no reason to assume he did so because he was raised to think dogs are his equal; no reason at all.

That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with. Congratulations. You're trolling about a family's death. How terribly Christ-like of you.

eccho
11-29-2012, 22:14
Isn't that a choice that each person should get to make on his or her own?

I'm with you, I think I generally would not risk my own life to save my dog and if it came down to my dog or my wife, the dog would go. But I don't presume to make that choice for other people, and there are definitely some dogs I'd save before some people. I definitely wouldn't presume to tell someone else how much money they should spend trying to save their own pet--it's their money and their business.


There's something people are missing here. If I have a beloved pet that is sacred to me and I love it to pieces that's all well and good, but I know there's a damn good chance my mother/father/fiance would probably dive in after me if I dived in after the dog and it looked like I was in trouble. Knowing in my last moments I may have got someone else killed for my decision to go after something that was important to me, would be one of the worst things I can imagine.


Although I can see the other side of the argument, being I would know the risks of diving in the ocean after a dog and a reasonable adult would know the risks of going after me.


I'm not judging anyone that died, or anyone that loves their pets enough to risk their lives to save them. I'm just making the point that peril invites rescue attempts and rescue attempts can be extremely dangerous.

Altaris
11-29-2012, 22:16
That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with.

If you think this is bad, you should see him in the religious issues sub-forum. :wow:

countrygun
11-29-2012, 22:23
You continue to state this interpretation of events as though it's the only possible way it could have happened, and continue to pointedly ignore those who are pointing out all manner of other reasons that young man might have jumped in the water to save his dog. There is absolutely no reason to assume he did so because he was raised to think dogs are his equal; no reason at all.

That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with. Congratulations. You're trolling about a family's death. How terribly Christ-like of you.

Ow c'mon he has his own special Bible with commandments

1) Thou shalt be judgemental for thou art "special"

2) Thou shalt not question thine own statements for thou art "special"

3) Thou shall go forth and pontificate for thou art "special"

4) Thou needs not consider the words of others for thou art "special"

5) Do not use the name of the Short Bus in vain.

6) Honor thy Mother and Father and Eff everyone elses

etc.


(apologies if I have accidentalyy offended any good Christians, that was not my intent)

RPVG
11-29-2012, 23:05
"... There's no honor among animals..."
Bingo! And that's because there's no morality among ("lower") animals.

They do what they do cuz it's what they're wired up to do. There's no choice betewwn Right and Wrong among animals. Humans, OTOH, are blessed/cursed with a set of morals that guides us, instead of/in addition to pure animal instinct.

Having said that, I'm a dog lover all the way. I'm the guy who keeps "doggie treats" in his glove box in case I get to meet a strange dog. I love to wrestle with dogs. I love to scratch 'em behind the ear, trade kisses with 'em, rub noses with them, and just "bond" with them. To me, there's something special about dogs. Dog spelled backwards is...

But they're not human. You'll never see one make an immoral choice. They can't. They're not capable of it.

RayB
11-30-2012, 03:48
But they're not human. You'll never see one make an immoral choice. They can't. They're not capable of it.


Not speaking specifically about dogs here, but deviant, even criminal animal behavior has indeed been documented...

One very good (true story) movie on the subject is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116409/

NETFLIX has it.

--Ray

countrygun
11-30-2012, 04:13
Not speaking specifically about dogs here, but deviant, even criminal animal behavior has indeed been documented...

One very good (true story) movie on the subject is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116409/

NETFLIX has it.

--Ray

Great movie. I had heard the story a longtime before the movie.

I think you would have a hard time making a case that their behavior was "criminal" because in order to be such they would have to be convicted or capable of being convicted and really, any chimp that had passed the bar exam could get them off on an insanity defense since you would have a hard time proving they had Mens Rea to be considered responsible for their actions, unless, of course, it was a kangaroo court.

TKM
11-30-2012, 04:25
Could Kingarthur....... please change his user name so I no longer despise any otherwise innocent historical figure?

NeverMore1701
11-30-2012, 04:32
Could Kingarthur....... please change his user name so I no longer despise any otherwise innocent historical figure?

Something like "I'maGiantBag", perhaps?

RayB
11-30-2012, 05:30
Great movie. I had heard the story a longtime before the movie.

I think you would have a hard time making a case that their behavior was "criminal" because in order to be such they would have to be convicted or capable of being convicted and really, any chimp that had passed the bar exam could get them off on an insanity defense since you would have a hard time proving they had Mens Rea to be considered responsible for their actions, unless, of course, it was a kangaroo court.


True enough, I used the term, "criminal" figuratively. Still...

Typically, except for when teaching their young, the big cats kill smoothly and efficiently, and they don't kill for kicks and giggles—they kill for food or to defend against an immediate threat. In short, they kill for a practical purpose.

The aforementioned movie is about two male lions, living together in a cave, that terrorized and killed for the sheer fun of it, and even collected trophies of their prey—a behavior that is almost human, from a criminal POV.

This is among the movies I own.

Another fine movie I recently watched and plan to purchase:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1703148/

NETFLIX also has this one.

--Ray

JuneyBooney
11-30-2012, 06:29
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

Well, they are clearly in heaven. That is a selfless sacrifice. May they rest in peace.

Arc Angel
11-30-2012, 08:04
Life can be strange. It really, really can. I once owned two superlatively well-trained American Pitbull Terriers. I could put those dogs, ‘on or off a man’ from 50 yards away with nothing more than my voice or a hand signal. For years not a day went by that I didn’t spend an hour, or so, working with them. I don’t think the male dog was ever 100%, ‘tame’; that feral spark was always in him; BUT, he was obedient; and that was his redeeming virtue. On the other hand, over a period of several years, the female and I very closely bonded. I actually had the ability to simply look at her, make eye contact, and she would do whatever I wanted her to do.

The problem I had with her was that she trusted me too well, and was willing to take enormous chances with her physical well-being IF she thought that was what I wanted. Her redeeming virtue (and an occasional lifesaver) was the fact that she was totally obedient, would often watch my eyes, and then do exactly what I signaled her to do. Both Bulldogs knew their right from their left; and I could easily turn them from a hundred yards away to search in whatever direction I wanted. (The female was a champion search and rescue dog that had the finest, ‘nose’ of any animal I’ve, personally, ever worked with.)

So, one day, an intruder enters our home, finds me helpless and on crutches, standing in the middle of the living room; and, the instant that our eyes met, I knew, ‘Why’ he was there. If we didn’t keep those two dogs inside our home, there’s a high probability that I wouldn’t be typing this right now. After the events of that morning, we ended up with two superlatively well-trained and COMPLETELY USELESS attack/guard dogs. Why? Because I loved the both of them so much that I was no longer willing to place either of their lives at risk - THAT is, ‘Why’!

Would I have risked my own life in order to save one of theirs? I suspect that I probably would have for the male; and I definitely would have - in fact I, later on, did - for the female. I look at it this way: If a dog is willing to die for me, why shouldn’t I be willing to do just as much for the dog? Someone once said to me, ‘Dogs are just, ‘little people in fur coats.’ Personally, I believe that remark.

Each of us proceeds through life and towards death in his own way. True story: In 2009 I had a severe episode of congestive heart failure; and I died, twice, while I was in the hospital. ‘Why’ I survived I haven’t the slightest idea? Not the slightest! I should be dead; but, I’m still here. Last year, and all of a sudden, I got this overwhelming desire to buy a high end smoke and carbon monoxide detector - One with all the, ‘bells and whistles’ on it. I go on the Internet, find one, and order it in. As soon as it arrived I got out my toolbox and mounted it to the wall. All the while I had no idea, ‘Why’ I felt that I had to have one of these things? (It made no sense because we already had some cheapy-cheapy smoke detectors.)

About two months after I installed this high end, dual sensor detector in our home, I’m sitting at my desk, doing what I’m doing now; and, so help me, all of a sudden I wake up with my face in the keyboard, a body that doesn’t want to work, our beautiful Maine Coon Cat biting hard into my leg, and the new detector screaming like an air raid siren!

My brain didn't want to work. I looked at the door and said a prayer asking God to help me to get there. My feet felt like lead! I was very uncoordinated; and, when I got to the door, I couldn’t make my hands work in order to turn the door knob. I had just so much strength left; and, on my last try, I used both hands to finally make that knob turn. The door finally opened, and I stumbled out onto the porch.

It took two or three minutes for my coordination to, sort of, return; and, when it did, I held my breath as I ran back into the house and began opening all the windows up. My wife wasn’t home; but me, our Bulldog, and three cats, all, made it out alive. What had happened was that a water pipe had ruptured underneath the house; and the plumber was using a large propane heater in order to dry out the flooring. Carbon monoxide was, of course, a byproduct of all that heat. (Duh!) :freak:

When I went back into the house in order to get those windows open I knew that I was risking my life; but, for the past 6 years my three, ‘best friends’ have been my wife, and two very beautiful - and much smarter than you might think - cats!

‘You go as you go.’ 2009, and 2011 were NOT my time to leave. (I don’t know, ‘Why’?) As far as the people in the originating news story go? It WAS their time. There are any number of disbelieving atheists on this board who - I am certain - are going to go, ‘straight to Hell’ when they die. No matter how someone dies, though, if the circumstances of his death are, ‘agreeable to God’ (If you are able to benefit yourself by passing with a clear conscience.) then, as far as I’m concerned, your soul is going to be that much better off for it.

Remember, ‘He’s the God of the Living, not of the dead.’ What’s one lifetime, anyway! Christ said, ‘In my Father’s house there are, ‘many mansions’. I suggest that all those who are dismayed by, both, this event and these deaths should, at the very least, change their spiritual point-of-view.

GreenDrake
11-30-2012, 09:13
It sounds like your god is trying to kill you.

Paul7
11-30-2012, 12:31
What does my being a carnivore have to do with my pets?

Do you eat your pets on a regular basis?

My pets give me comfort and entertainment. My pets don't vote for Democrats or Republicans. My pets don't go and rape & kill others because of religious beliefs.

Dogs kill people regularly.

Java Junky
11-30-2012, 12:49
Do they take requests?

Kilrain
11-30-2012, 13:15
Dogs kill people regularly.

Not nearly as regularly as people kill dogs. And I'm not referring to humane euthanasia for medical reasons or population control or some other valid reason, I'm referring to sickos like md2lgyk. Unfortunately, the world is full of them.

:fist:

cesaros
11-30-2012, 14:18
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26/couple-dead-teen-missing-after-family-swept-to-sea-trying-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.

My MWD (Military Working Dog) is like family, and he would sacrifice his life for mine.

Considering our job is to find explosives, as well as find criminals who run away...he protects me every day, and I have no doubt he would give his life to protect me. Would I do the same...I think I would...It's a bond and a love that people like you will never understand.

This year, an MWD was shot 5 times and still continued to protect her handler while in Afghanistan...if that's not love and commitment, I don't know what is...Our dogs are certainly NOT trained to do that.

here is a pic of my dog Rudo, posing for the camera.

Prodigal Sailor
11-30-2012, 16:06
This thread was started on a false premise, a twisting of the facts and flawed logic so egergious that it has forced me to go to an horrifying extreme---I am forced to agree with "gunhaver".:shocked:

The "rescue was a cluster *****. started by the boy going after the dog BUT I have to ask, unless this kid was raised on a farm and used to killing his 4-H projects, would it be considered "normal" for a kid to just watch a family pet die?

Don't we generally get concerned about kids who can watch animals die?

It was the job of the parents to be "in charge" at the beach. It is a dangerous place and I live very close to the same type of beach. It is not a place where you can afford not to pay attention. Several things failed, but a kid being concerned about his pet wasn't the stupid part of the tragedy.

What a silly requirement in these post-Modern days-> "parents...'in charge'"? What are you thinking? :-)

countrygun
11-30-2012, 16:46
What a silly requirement in these post-Modern days-> "parents...'in charge'"? What are you thinking? :-)

You are right, I deserve a facepalm for that. I don't know what I was thinking.

Kingarthurhk
11-30-2012, 17:49
You a assuming something is "obvious" merely to fit your agenda. It is not "obvious" that he was taught that dogs are human.

He might care for animals enough to have taken the risk, knowing they aren't "Human", but just because he cared.

or

He might just as well have gone after some object that was being washed out because he didn't want it to get washed out, no thinking it was "human" at all. Living right at the ocean I have seen many people go out further than they really should for many reasons, a freaking beach towel for instance. I am sure they didn't think the beach towel was "human"

You don't really know squat about his motives, you just jumped on the report and interpreted it in a way that fit your beliefs.

I dare you to prove that he thought the dog was "human".

Given the reaction here about pet worship. I really don't have to assume to hard.

countrygun
11-30-2012, 17:55
Given the reaction here about pet worship. I really don't have to assume to hard.

No you don't, I am sure it come easily and naturally for you.

You can even do it without evidence. You have a talent alright.

Kilrain
11-30-2012, 19:31
Given the reaction here about pet worship.

Well, at least pets are real, unlike what you worship.........:tongueout:

Lone Wolf8634
11-30-2012, 20:24
Given the reaction here about pet worship. I really don't have to assume to hard.


You really are a few sammiches short of a full pic-a-nic basket...ehhh Boo-boo?:teddy:

Because our pets lives are precious to us and we would go to extremes to preserve them..... now we worship them:upeyes:

At least I can see my dog. :whistling::dog:

Cali-Glock
11-30-2012, 20:24
Not speaking specifically about dogs here, but deviant, even criminal animal behavior has indeed been documented...

One very good (true story) movie on the subject is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116409/

NETFLIX has it.

--Ray

The movie was 99% Hollywood nonsense storytelling. This movie is the most egregeous example of Hollywood claiming "true story" when it is not.

countrygun
11-30-2012, 20:31
You really are a few sammiches short of a full pic-a-nic basket...ehhh Boo-boo?:teddy:

Because our pets lives are precious to us and we would go to extremes to preserve them..... now we worship them:upeyes:

At least I can see my dog. :whistling::dog:


He is so full of creative assumptions I think he is just jealous because most people like their dogs more than they like him.

RayB
11-30-2012, 20:37
The movie was 99% Hollywood nonsense storytelling. This movie is the most egregeous example of Hollywood claiming "true story" when it is not.


I always expect movie makers to take great license, but your claim, on quick inspection, does not fly either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsavo_maneaters

--Ray

Dogbite
11-30-2012, 21:52
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. I personally love animals, but I would NEVER put a dog or cat or any animal on the same level as a human. Just because we give the animal a name, and put bells on its collar does not change the fact that we EAT animals. Do I hate it when a good dog of mine has died, sure! Would I risk a family member over a pet--or course not! This type of issue is something that people understood 50 years ago, it was common sense. I know this may be very unpopular today, but none the less, I think people need to get a grip. Thats where I stand on it.

Kilrain
11-30-2012, 22:01
Would I risk a family member over a pet--or course not!

A question more pertinent to the conversation at hand would be if a known child rapist was drowning at the same time your pet dog was drowning and you COULD save only one, which one would you save?

You can substitute Satan, Hitler, Osama bin Laden, an ex-wife, whatever into the equation if you like...........